COMMENTS: 177
The Evangelical Movement's Breakdown Ain't so Cute After All
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New York Times reporter David Kirkpatrick takes apart "The Evangelical Crackup" in this past Sunday Magazine, in what is sure to be one of the most talked-about stories of the pre-election season.
He interviews a number of pastors and politicos from the conservative churches -- the bedrock of the "Moral Majority" and the base that won the Bush family their votes.
This is the movement that could be relied upon to do anything at the flick of an abortion-shaming or homo-hating switch. Get them on their high horse, with a sexy leather crop in their hands, and you had them sweating and frothing their way to the finish line.
By Kirkpatrick's assessment, the coalition is now blown to smithereens, for a number of reasons. I was disappointed with his analysis, but the raw material is fascinating to review:
1. The Oedipal Split. The old dudes of the Moral Majority are dying, or at least creaking -- and the hip young pastors coming up can't wait to dethrone the old poops. The younger congregations -- which are the only ones growing -- don't wanna listen to grandpa scream "Get Thee Behind Me, Satan" -- they're embarrassed by him. They don't want to look stupid about evolution. They wish they were as cool as The Daily Show.
2. The religious right got tied like a tin can to the tail of the GOP, and lately, that's like being dragged through the streets on a bed of nails. The new line among the moderate church folk is, "We shouldn't have gotten involved in politics in the first place." They say the religious community should be a pure covenant that doesn't take partisan sides. Besides, the current crop of Republican presidential
3. "Be the first one on your block to have your boy come home in a box." The War is unpopular, and everyone blames Bush. The Fundie rank and file have seen their kids killed and maimed, and they don't see the Bush clan making any sacrifices. Meanwhile, the oil profiteering is hurting everyone who doesn't have a major share in Halliburton. The class divisions between the have-nots, have-littles, and the White House are finally deep enough to hurt, and all the flag-waving and fag-bashing won't make it go away.
Kirkpatrick got a lot of the young ministers on the record speaking about how they didn't want to be known for what they were against, they want to be associated with positive efforts, like fighting poverty and racism in their own communities. Taking global warming and environmental issues seriously! Promoting peace rather than blood or oil thirst. He even got one pastor to admit he didn't think having an an abortion or being gay was necessarily going to send anyone to hell. My, my!
On the face of it, these developments are very touching, and they reflect the changes I see in my own small town. The white Christian churches in Santa Cruz have thrown themselves into helping people with drug rehab, especially those suffering from the meth scourge. The old-school surfing community here is divided between dealers and born-again's, and the Xtians have really gained a lot of ground. They do food fund-raising drives, the pastors are famous for their marital counseling services, they clean up the beaches. They sponsor straight-edge hardcore music shows. They are supportive to families who've been devastated by the war, and the obvious sentiment is, "This was so unnecessary, Jesus doesn't like it."
But.
I think this "kind" face is the one the church puts on whenever they're in trouble.
The sex shame has not gone away; I meet the causalities all the time: the young women looking for a way out of a secret pregnancy who "can't tell anyone" and hate themselves for it. The painful closet cases who hide behind "purity pledges" and the threat of "porn addiction" as a way to keep anyone from seeing that they're queer, and as horny, as any other human being. The revolving door between drug addiction and choir practice because the underlying problems are never addressed.
The church can't help these poor sinners, no matter how "nice" they are, because fundamentally, they have sinned. If you believe in that shit, even if you're not getting a straight ticket to hell, purgatory's flames are burning your hair off anyway.
Successful missionary work encourages conceit, and aggression. It always does. When it was "fun" to be a Bush Family supporter, when W. was a "winner," then being a fag-bashing bully and killing a few more abortion doctors was righteous. Bomb Iraq! Your credit card is limitless! Gas is cheap! National Guard duty is a cakewalk! Jesus did a lot of kicking ass and taking names.
Of course the elite like Ralph Reed, Falwell, Dobson, et. al., sold out to the corporate GOP cash trough long ago. Year after year, the Republican economic and military policies destroyed their own base. But the Fundie Kings were distracted by all their velvet cushions and private jets. A scandal here, a scandal there -- they just couldn't be bothered to take it seriously.
The only candidate who could save them now would be a wholesome middle-of-the-roader who promises to end the war, and put some major money in working-class (i.e., debt slave) pockets. Like Hillary. Or Barak. And those two are pumping out the prayer breakfasts to prove that very point. The leading Democrats aren't campaigning to get religion out of politics, they're encouraging it.
Dobson may still be screaming in his piss-pot about how children need to be beaten harder to turn out right, but he shook Hillary Clinton's hand a few weeks ago. What does that say about the two of them?
There is no such thing as religion staying out of politics; I find it incredible any reporter can let a whopper like that slip through without rebuttal. Christian power is not about holding hands and thinking good thoughts about the little people. Instead, what we have is a very tense waiting game.
Kirkpatrick describes one dethroned older minister, Pastor Terry Fox, who got ejected from his Wichita Baptist mega-church by the younger deacons, and is now holding small gatherings in a Best Western hotel room.
"Hell is just as hot as it ever was," he reminded [his remaining congregation]. "It just has more people in it."
"... I think the religious community is reflective of the rest of the nation -- it's divided right now. This election process is going to reveal a lot about where the religious right and the religious community is. It will show unity or the lack of it."
But liberals, he said, should not start gloating. "Some might compare the religious right to a snake," he said. "We may be in our hole right now, but we can come out and bite you at any time."
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Oct 31, 2007 1:03 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everything else comes out of that simple fact.
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» RE: Perception vs Reality
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Perception vs Reality
Posted by: fork
» RE: Perception vs Reality
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Perception vs Reality
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Perception vs Reality
Posted by: Wacre
» RE: Perception vs Reality
Posted by: hagwind
» RE:
Posted by: planet doomed
» RE: Perception vs Reality
Posted by: jbur816
» You and Susie Bright get a 1 for being intolerant.
Posted by: utilitarianist
» No one cares about your scorecard
Posted by: boydranchitos
» "Not all Germans were Nazis, but they did nothing..."Because that attitude worked after world war 1?
Posted by: utilitarianist
» RE: No one cares about your scorecard
Posted by: smarmos12
» RE: No one cares about your scorecard
Posted by: planet doomed
» OK ... "not all" -- but ENOUGH
Posted by: BenCaxton12
» Aren't you supposed to be persuading them they are wrong?
Posted by: utilitarianist
» RE: Aren't you supposed to be persuading them they are wrong?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Aren't you supposed to be persuading them they are wrong?
Posted by: jbur816
» RE: You and Susie Bright get a 1 for being intolerant.
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» 1 for you too.
Posted by: utilitarianist
» RE: You and Susie Bright get a 1 for being intolerant.
Posted by: inverse_agonist
» The bible is open to interpretation and many christians oppose tyranny.
Posted by: utilitarianist
» Social Evolution
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Social Evolution
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Who are these people?
Posted by: solrev
» When thou prayest, enter into thy closet...
Posted by: HoboHomo
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Posted by: Sojourner on Oct 31, 2007 3:56 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Consequently, for those who find democracy difficult--and it is and always will be--the solution is theocracy. When I was young, I was sure that pattern was disappearing, and it has in Europe. But here in Bible belt America, it comes and goes as regularly as the seasons.
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» RE: With all the damage that's been done, the True Believers can afford to take a breather.
Posted by: Jbuuty
» The Greatest Story Ever Sold
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: The Greatest Story Ever Sold
Posted by: boydranchitos
» Sociology of religion says you have a half-truth.
Posted by: Sojourner
» Which half do you consider true or untrue?
Posted by: LMNOP
» "There's no one more dangerous to injustice than an Anglican just up off his knees"--Anonymous
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Which half do you consider true or untrue?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The Greatest Story Ever Sold
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: The Greatest Story Ever Sold
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: The Greatest Story Ever Sold
Posted by: rocketman
» Don't diss righteous contempt for a boor
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Don't diss righteous contempt for a boor
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Don't diss righteous contempt for a boor
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Don't diss righteous contempt for a boor
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Don't diss righteous contempt for a boor
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: you yourself misspelled intolerance, "intollerence"
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: The Greatest Story Ever Sold
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The Greatest Story Ever Sold
Posted by: Jbuuty
» "Messiah" meant different things to different people and still does.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: What is the world coming to?
Posted by: solrev
» RE: What is the world coming to?
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: wawa on Oct 31, 2007 5:44 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Balancing the Christian Voice + Organizing the Christian Left.
Some Recent Topics of RESPECTFUL Discussion:
Middle East Peace,
Taking the Bible Seriously, Not Literally,
Progressive Cohesiveness
Diplomatic Immunity for Blackwater
Oh, BTW, you don't even need to be a believer to join in:
http://www.crossleft.org
All we ask is for respectful dialog; no bashing!
Last last week in Boston over 900 Progressive Christians attended the largest conference held by Sabeel/Arabic for THE WAY in the U.S.A.
Desmond Tutu, Naim Ateek, Noam Chomsky, Anat Biletzki, Phyllis Bennis, Jeff Halper, and others addressed:
The Apartheid Paradigm in Palestine-Israel: Issues of Justice & Peace
So many people stood in line to register at the last minute for the Saturday sessions of the Boston Sabeel conference that for the first time, Sabeel turned people away.
The event drew opposition from pro-occupation and pro-Zionist groups in the wider Boston area.
10,000 marched against the war in Iraq on 10/27/07 alongside Progressive Christians for Justice and Peace at the Jewish Voice for Peace Rally in Copley Square.
LEARN MORE:
http://www.fosna.org/
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» RE: The Christian LEFT HAS RISEN UP!!!
Posted by: thekidde
» The Christian LEFT HAS RISEN UP!!!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: The Christian LEFT HAS RISEN UP!!!
Posted by: DrTony
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Posted by: PJAW on Oct 31, 2007 5:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The thing that is weirdest for me, is when people get so scared that their particular stories might not be true, that they kill other people for simply mentioning the possibility. I like all the stories myself, they show a lot of creativity and are very entertaining, and often talk about the importance of loving and tolerating one another. This will be helpful when we find ourselves in other parts of the cosmos, after we leave here. At least that's how I see it.
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Posted by: nebgirl on Oct 31, 2007 6:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I am not Christian, but
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: I am not Christian, but
Posted by: Bozwell
» RE: I am not Christian, but
Posted by: johng
» pfft! because it's a change from the warmongering christians being in the majority
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
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Posted by: xbj on Oct 31, 2007 6:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christianity is a pacifict religion where you lay down your own life in love for your greatest enemy if need be. To follow Christ and do as He would do in all things.
Christianism, on the other hand, is a perverted political fascist movement of power mad money-grubbing intolerance-fostering bastards (to say that is NOT to judge them but to know them by their works) who claim to be Christians but are nothing of the sort. In Christ's day they called themselves Jews, but he called them the synagogue of Satan, Pharisees, hypocrites. They plotted his murder at the hands of the Romans, because they didn't want to soil their own hands and they couldn't stand His Truth.
This is the so-called "Christian" "Right"; they are neither, they are CHRISTIANISTS, and for the love of the universe and all that's sacred, QUIT CALLING THEM CHRISTIANS.
They and their movement IS NOTHING OF THE SORT. Which is why they embrace and espouse Zionism, which is almost the same exact peversion of Judaism.
Jesus would have told the nation of Israel to give the land back to the people they took it from in 1948 and to go to America, or anywhere else on the planet save Palestine and the Middle East. That G-d is wherever any one of them are, not in a stinking plot of bloodsoaked dirt. That G-d Himself allowed them to be driven off the land 2000 years ago FOR A VERY GOOD REASON.
His own words to sting in the ears of every Zionist and Christianist and Luciferian (the authors of BOTH movements):
“But if you are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies. Pray for the happiness of those that curse you. Pray for those who hurt you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn the other cheek. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also. Give what you have to anyone who asks for it; and when things are taken away from you, don’t try to get them back. Do for others as you would like them to do for you.”
LUKE 6: 27-35
Yes, Christianity has been perverted into Christianism many times before in its long history. The Crusades, for example.
But that doesn't make it Christianity now, or Christianity then. Christianism and Zionism will always be fascist imperialism. History shows this; LET IT RECORD IT PROPERLY and MAKE CLEAR THE DIFFERENCE.
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» RE: ChristianIST power, ChristianIST power, NOT Christian power
Posted by: juanitoboy_34
» RE: ChristianIST power, ChristianIST power, NOT Christian power
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: ChristianIST power, ChristianIST power, NOT Christian power
Posted by: smarmos12
» Beautiful analysis!
Posted by: chief of okeefe
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Posted by: peacelf on Oct 31, 2007 6:12 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm thinking of religious leaders like, Jim Wallis, John Shelby Spong and Obery Hendricks Jr. whose books trump the Left Behind series in reality and thoughtfulness.
And, Jesus scholars like John Domonic Crossan, Marcus Borg, Elaine Pagels, to name a few, have debunked the mythology surrounding the Jesus message.
According to the above mentioned scholars, inside the Bible lies of message of love, compassion, justice and hope for all humanity, no one excluded, and heaven and hell are here on earth, depending on your perception and politics. Empires are evil and church leaders who cowtow to right- wing politicians are Pharisees trying to keep their parishioners out of "God's Kingdom"--Jesus' utopian vision of a better world "on earth as it is in heaven."
As I stated elsewhere on Alternet: it will take Christian insiders to reform the church. The fundamentalist bashers, like the author of the above article, will do little to change the Christian mind. It's easy to sit on your high horse and bitch. Go do something! Join a church and reform it.
peace and love
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» RE: "Join a church and reform it."
Posted by: boydranchitos
» RE: "Join a church..." as a matter of fact...
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: Yes, Change is Coming..
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Yes, Change is Coming..
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Yes, Change is Coming..And yes - READ the Times article!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Yes, Change is Coming..And yes - READ the Times article!
Posted by: solrev
» Seriously, non-theists do not not believe in god. They simply don't give it a thought.
Posted by: JoAnne
» RE: Seriously, non-theists do not not believe in god. They simply don't give it a thought.
Posted by: Basenjis
» Yes, some of us can be wordy. Yet we don't wake up thinking, "God what have You for me today?"
Posted by: JoAnne
» RE: Constantinian vs Prophetic Christians
Posted by: peacelf
» Re: change is coming: love the idea, but here's what some evangelicals wrote to Spong:
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Cynicism is a symptom of nihilism
Posted by: peacelf
» Cynicism? Quotes and experience.
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: macaac on Oct 31, 2007 6:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: follow the MONEY
Posted by: boydranchitos
» RE: Money is the motivation behind the emerging Church's change of heart
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Churches turn to social services for fun and profit
Posted by: scheherezade
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Posted by: JSquercia on Oct 31, 2007 6:28 AM
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 31, 2007 7:10 AM
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» They finally realize that Jesus and Bush
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Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Oct 31, 2007 7:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I feel ambivalence toward all institutions--name one that doesn't fit your description.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: I feel ambivalence toward all institutions--name one that doesn't fit your description.
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Hypocrites Exploit Jesus Name and Message - Here is a short poem I wrote years ago
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Hypocrites Exploit Jesus Name and Message - Here is a short poem I wrote years ago
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE Here is a short poem I wrote years ago - Thanks
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» I really like poetry
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: I really like poetry - Sorry no
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: StPeteRican on Oct 31, 2007 7:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: LeeAnnG on Oct 31, 2007 7:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The most appalling belief among virtually every Christian I know - with notable exceptions - is that if one does not believe in Jesus as a deity and savior of humankind, that person will wind up in a very, very bad place for eternity. The images of what that place is like do vary from the worst scenario of a fiery lake to being deprived of the presence and love of god. Even the latter is rather nasty since everyone knows how it feels to have the love of a parent taken away.
Even if I were able to accept a 2,000 year old mythology based upon even older notions written by people who thought the world was flat and never heard of bacteria, black holes, or the American continents, the concept of hell of any kind would be a deterent. It's just too absurd and mean-spirited to think that one's beliefs are the deciding factor in how a person's soul will spend the afterlife (if there is such a thing). This is thought-policing at its very, very worst.
So no matter how benevolent, well-meaning, or even socially worthy the efforts of the evangelical right may be, there's still the matter of exclusivity, reliance on outdated and sometimes even loopy concepts, and that "you will go to hell if you don't believe what I believe" aspect to it all.
It still amazes me that so many even intelligent people can adhere to human-created mythologies that contradict scientific study. It's incredible that "faith" is such a highly touted attribute, often far more than reliance on imperical evidence. In fact, I often encounter derision, both in the media and among my Christian friends, when it comes to science. It's called a "belief" system, as if religion and science are somehow comparable, and religion comes out on top for these people. The fact that scientific thought keeps changing and updating as more information is gathered is seen by many religious folk as a negative and kind of an informational "flip-flop." "Jesus never changes his mind" is so much better for them.
Not too long ago, I posted on CommonDreams concerning some of this and got a reply that I "disapprove" of Christians. This is absurd! I don't disapprove of them. I don't "hate" their Jesus, and I don't think any of them will ever be punished for what goes on in their heads. I don't think this about any religion.
I simply think all religions are created by humans in order to explain the unexplainable, to present guidelines on how to live well (see Joseph Campbell for more compelling arguments about the purpose of mythology), and to assuage fears of dying and the unknown.
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» John l. RE: The ugliness of religious certainty
Posted by: JOHN L.
» Religion and morality
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: eligion and morality
Posted by: Jefferson's Guardian
» RE: eligion and morality
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: eligion and morality
Posted by: babs
» "We are more than our physical bodies" - Robert Monroe
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: "We are more than our physical bodies" NOT
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» Everything has an opposite
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» "all religions are created by humans in order to explain the unexplainable" Science, too.
Posted by: Sojourner
» I envy you!
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» Gave me chills.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: RODNOX on Oct 31, 2007 8:18 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ODNOX
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: willymack on Oct 31, 2007 10:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: bobtr900 on Oct 31, 2007 10:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WWJD? I think I know, He would never endorse killing. These new evangelicals are on the right track as far as I'mconcerned. When one claims to know and acts as if one knows and FORCES ones beliefs onto others that is the sin of PRIDE; 'and the worst of these is the first' which refers to the sin of PRIDE.
No one can know, certainly not in this life. We all are nothing more than human beings and getting too far away from that simple and humble thought and related actions is hypocrisy, blasphemy and heresy. The agnostics, like Bill Mahr, claming they just don't know are more right than the right wingers claiming that they KNOW, they now it all and the are somehow perfect in their knowledge and understanding. This is where not only the evangelical fundies are wrong but so too are the Catholic fundies, including the Pope and the crew on EWTN, the Catholic cable channel, are wrongand way far from the path that the true Jesus set for us during His time on earth.
Many people have to make a choice, here is where FREE WILL, comes in; it is the right and rsponsibility to choose wisely grasshopper but to choose only for oneself. One makes a wise choice when one does ones best to follow ones own conscience, as God requires us to do. Forcing our personal choices onto others deprives/ denies. strips othes of their own God given Free Will. And no one ever has any right to do that, not even the Pope has that right. Doing that and then claiming to do so in the name of God is among the most corrupt things I can think of.
Quit possibly the gospel of St. Thomas is the most accurate gospel. It says that Jesus said, when asked by the apostles, 'that we all have all that we need within us and all about us'. The Pope fights or the institution of the church, but Jesus never endorsed any single institutional/ man-made church.
The institutional church of the Pope is not the church of Jesus, IMHO; at least not for me and that is that is what I am responsible for. Again IMHO I think the Pope is way far wrong, But thats just me. I will know what ever God allows me to know and it will is coming soon. And I am ready, and with a clear conscience, for me.
Their may be a test coming for all of us Catholics. Russia seems to be among the top three things/entities on the Popes hitlist, after abortionand homosexuals. The Pope would have us believe that the Virgin Mary was sent by Jesus to warn of Russia. Now if we are to nuke Russia the Pope can count me out. I'll have no part of it. Is that why Cheney and Boosh are deliberately doing things to provoke Russia, because the Pope told them to do it.
These new evangelicals so far seem to be on the right track, at least in-so-far as I see it. If they stay on that track then I have common ground with them, possibly even huge common ground. Any way I have hope... I find that sustaining to my spirit, albeit not my body and the spirit is more important than the body.
Why do I go at the Pope and his followers so pointedly? IMHO I Think they are wrong, certainly wrong for me. Others have to make their own decisions, and I hope that everyone will do so at a very conscious level.
Any religion that vilifies, and that is the the best word I can think of, others of the children of God is way far off the path set by Jesus. The Catholic Church has been vilifying women and Jews for nearly it's entire 2000 year history. And that is very wrong.
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» RE: Sounds to me...
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: thekidde on Oct 31, 2007 11:03 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» "You can fool some of the people all of the time."
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: thekidde
Posted by: Jbuuty
» I'll take wisdom over intelligence every time.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: I'll take wisdom over intelligence every time.
Posted by: Jbuuty
» One shot is correct
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: patsy6 on Oct 31, 2007 10:53 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Being a bit "touchy" there, don't you think?
Posted by: Sojourner
» Gee - ya think?
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Gee - ya think?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Intolerance is Blind
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» Great posts here, LeeAnnG, all of them n/m
Posted by: fork
» Thank you!
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Intolerance is Blind
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Intolerance is Blind
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Intolerance is Blind
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» RE: Intolerance is Blind
Posted by: MeridaLady
» RE: Intolerance is Blind
Posted by: babs
» Yep
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: SufiLizard on Oct 31, 2007 12:15 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I spent last evening at a special service honoring St. Marcellus a 3rd century conscientious objector and martyr with a number of fellow peace-and-social-justice-loving Christians from a wide variety of denominations. And this took place in the Bascillica at Notre Dame University in South Bend, Indiana.
What passes as mainstream Christianity right now, is in my opinion, a total abomination of what Christ was all about. And this isn't a new phenomena, there were warring factions in Christianity from the earliest times. And in my opinion, there have been people who used the faith to exploit their own thirst for power from the very beginning.
That has happened to all religions in history. Christianity is no different.
But look at the influence of Christianity on the great pioneers of non-violence like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and even Ghandi. I just learned last night that Ghandi began and ended every day of the last 40 years of his life reading Matthew 5, 6 and 7. He read those passages twice a day every day for 40 years because he found Christ to be the greatest example of active non-violence in human history.
Of course Ghandi also remarked that Christians were the only ones in the world who didn't realize that. And he would never have characterized himself as a Christian. But the core of the message was with him and is with many of us to this day.
Don't let the loudest mouths speak for all of us. A genuine, peace-loving faith can be a VERY beneficial thing. Just as exploitative, self-centered faith can be a VERY destructive thing.
It's the yin and the yang, if I may be allowed to borrow a concept outside the Judeo-Christian tradition.
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» Many philosophies to explore
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» no offense, but...
Posted by: inverse_agonist
» RE: no offense, but...
Posted by: Jbuuty
» Susie hates Christians because they are Christians
Posted by: Philip Newton
» Perhaps reading the title and opening paragraphs would clear things up for anyone. . .
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Not Lumping all Christians together
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: Not Lumping all Christians together
Posted by: peacelf
Comments are closed-
Posted by: desirenot on Oct 31, 2007 12:56 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You are no better than those who rally people behind the banners you despise. You are simply holding a banner of a different color. Do you believe it to be who you are, what you are? Think about this.
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» please reply
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» I wondered the same thing!
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» "G" "o" "d" is a word, a name. So is Allah, Jahweh, Krishna, Atman, etc.
Posted by: Sojourner
» Vowels in Hebrew
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Vowels in Hebrew
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: What is your name?
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Vowels in Hebrew
Posted by: LeeAnnG
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» Truth Crushed To Earth Will Rise Again!
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
Comments are closed-
Posted by: aka_bozo on Oct 31, 2007 3:38 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But, once again the people with the empathetic psychology (and, just coincidentally, ALSO having an empathetic imaginary-friend) are only talking AT the people with the mean psychology (and, ALSO having a mean imaginary-friend – which, MUST be JUST a coincidence). And visa-versa.
The people withOUT an imaginary-friend are still waiting for you guys to work this out. We’ve been waiting, oh – 2000 years now. Can your imaginary-friend call their imaginary-friend and do lunch?
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Posted by: solrev on Oct 31, 2007 3:46 PM
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» RE: People are strange
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Oct 31, 2007 3:45 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
include figuring out when the second coming would be required, assuming
that the bible was 100% true in the year zero. That is, when would the
bible be down to 50% true? The popular and professors' answer in 1965
was the year 500. The true answer: A friend of mine was born and
raised in Budapest, Hungary. As an adult, he came here and stayed.
After 25 years, he visited his home town of Budapest. He was unable to
communicate with his high school classmates because the Hungarian
language had changed so much. The correct answer is less than 25 years.
The first gospel was not written down until 50 years after the alleged
events and then in a different language. The people who told the story
were at about the same level of civilization as "wild Indians", I mean
Native Americans before Columbus got here. We have all played or seen
played the game called "Telephone" in which a story is passed down a line
of re-tellers. By the Sixth re-telling, the story has no resemblance to the
original. The gospel story had to have been re-told at least 6 times before
it was mis-translated the first time. Conclusion: There is no truth
anywhere in the bible, and there never was.
ALL of the jurisdictions that were formerly in the jurisdiction of religion
have been taken over by Science. There is no longer a need to debate the
issue. Religion is an unfortunate side effect of a major and ongoing step in
evolution. [Not that evolution has a predetermined direction. We could
devolve, but we have to get over religion or go extinct. "God" will not
save us from the consequences of global warming or an asteroid impact
because there is no such critter as "god.".] Ethics and morality are
instinctive, not derived from religion. Look up "Sociobiology". The
origin of the Universe is the subject of Cosmology which is part of
astronomy which is part of the science of physics.
Religion is a SCAM. ANY religion, there are 10,000 to choose from.
ALL preachers, priests, imams, rabbis, iatolas, etc. belong in jail for "grand
theft bunko".
SCIENCE IS NOT A RELIGION. Science is nothing like
religion. Science is self-correcting. There is no dogma in
science.
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» Hear, hear...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» You want to do what?!
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» Sociobiology, no proof of it
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Science itself is not a religion, but many who claim to be scientific. . .
Posted by: Philip Newton
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Oct 31, 2007 4:15 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Second, there is absolutely no evidence for a god of any kind. So any decisions made by politicians based on Jesus or God should be viewed as ignorant, inane, or insane, in that order.
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» Religious insanity is here and now in the White House!
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
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Posted by: sofla100 on Oct 31, 2007 5:36 PM
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Posted by: Staggo on Oct 31, 2007 6:29 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Young evangelicas do have new priorites.
Posted by: Philip Newton
Comments are closed-
Posted by: luckypuck on Oct 31, 2007 10:30 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To the degree that government is religious, it is not government. To the degree that religion is political, it is not religious.
Government is grounded in laws which are based on concrete, objective, provable facts. Religion is grounded in laws that are based on deep-seated, subjective, incontestable beliefs.
To be representative of all the diversity a democracy’s rights and freedoms engender, especially freedom of thought, requires a secular government. In order to maintain orthodoxy and a unified adherence to doctrine and prevent schism, especially from freedom of thought, theocracy requires a state-established church (well, actually a church-established state, like Iran).
Never should the twain meet and God grant they never do.
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» Separation of Church and State was church position before it was a government position
Posted by: Jbuuty
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Posted by: talkville on Nov 1, 2007 12:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They are by no means gone, and have a long, dismal trail behind them; always intent on the imposition of their faith-structure upon the entire universe by exclusion of anyone or anything which differs from it.
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Posted by: compu on Nov 1, 2007 1:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
be able of mind control.What can be worse than abuse
a child,they do not as an isolated cases,but by the hundreds.
Can any one believer in such punishments do crimes like that?
Now this links about the Vatican shenanigans.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=masons+at+the+vatican
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Posted by: dkm on Nov 1, 2007 6:20 PM
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This same attitude is also dominant in the rightwing reactionary Christianist movement. It explains why Bush and his ilk are able to trample on democratic traditions with impunity, and it explains why so many authoritarian types like Dobson are so powerful. When you are brought up from the very beginning believing that submission to authority is the only morally correct avenue in any situation, then you don't really notice when you have lost your freedom. That is why democracy and freedom are only slogans in the Bush administration and not even that among the Christianists.
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Posted by: diamondvajra on Nov 1, 2007 9:31 PM
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Posted by: Philip Newton on Nov 2, 2007 6:07 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yep. Don't see any Left Coast Pseudo social liberals making any, either. It's the blue collar that gets stained with blood.
Susie writes: "The class divisions between the have-nots, have-littles, and the White House are finally deep enough to hurt, and all the flag-waving and fag-bashing won't make it go away."
True. And all the pet bedroom causes of the quasi-progressive social butterfliess which often further divide the Great Unwashed aren't going to make one damned bit of difference, either.
Ignorant, distorted rants such as this this writer's are merely condoned hate speech. The writer would do better to pick up a book and read about what real Christian thought entails, rather than further distorting the already pathetic grotesque that is American Christiandom.
I suggest CS Lewis's "Mere Christianity" for starters.
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» You won't find many of Lewis's Mere Christians in the ranks of fundamentalist America
Posted by: Beck
» Have you read Lewis?
Posted by: Philip Newton
» Indeed I have read Lewis, and know of his born-again experience; the article was not about. . .
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Indeed I have read Lewis, and know of his born-again experience; the article was not about. . .
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: talkville on Nov 4, 2007 3:13 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Good question
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: ccluelessfl60 on Nov 7, 2007 6:40 AM
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Oct 31, 2007 1:03 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everything else comes out of that simple fact.
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» RE: Perception vs Reality
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Perception vs Reality
Posted by: fork
» RE: Perception vs Reality
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Perception vs Reality
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Perception vs Reality
Posted by: Wacre
» RE: Perception vs Reality
Posted by: hagwind
» RE:
Posted by: planet doomed
» RE: Perception vs Reality
Posted by: jbur816
» You and Susie Bright get a 1 for being intolerant.
Posted by: utilitarianist
» No one cares about your scorecard
Posted by: boydranchitos
» "Not all Germans were Nazis, but they did nothing..."Because that attitude worked after world war 1?
Posted by: utilitarianist
» RE: No one cares about your scorecard
Posted by: smarmos12
» RE: No one cares about your scorecard
Posted by: planet doomed
» OK ... "not all" -- but ENOUGH
Posted by: BenCaxton12
» Aren't you supposed to be persuading them they are wrong?
Posted by: utilitarianist
» RE: Aren't you supposed to be persuading them they are wrong?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Aren't you supposed to be persuading them they are wrong?
Posted by: jbur816
» RE: You and Susie Bright get a 1 for being intolerant.
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» 1 for you too.
Posted by: utilitarianist
» RE: You and Susie Bright get a 1 for being intolerant.
Posted by: inverse_agonist
» The bible is open to interpretation and many christians oppose tyranny.
Posted by: utilitarianist
» Social Evolution
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Social Evolution
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Who are these people?
Posted by: solrev
» When thou prayest, enter into thy closet...
Posted by: HoboHomo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sojourner on Oct 31, 2007 3:56 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Consequently, for those who find democracy difficult--and it is and always will be--the solution is theocracy. When I was young, I was sure that pattern was disappearing, and it has in Europe. But here in Bible belt America, it comes and goes as regularly as the seasons.
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» RE: With all the damage that's been done, the True Believers can afford to take a breather.
Posted by: Jbuuty
» The Greatest Story Ever Sold
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: The Greatest Story Ever Sold
Posted by: boydranchitos
» Sociology of religion says you have a half-truth.
Posted by: Sojourner
» Which half do you consider true or untrue?
Posted by: LMNOP
» "There's no one more dangerous to injustice than an Anglican just up off his knees"--Anonymous
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Which half do you consider true or untrue?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The Greatest Story Ever Sold
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: The Greatest Story Ever Sold
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: The Greatest Story Ever Sold
Posted by: rocketman
» Don't diss righteous contempt for a boor
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Don't diss righteous contempt for a boor
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Don't diss righteous contempt for a boor
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Don't diss righteous contempt for a boor
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Don't diss righteous contempt for a boor
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: you yourself misspelled intolerance, "intollerence"
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: The Greatest Story Ever Sold
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The Greatest Story Ever Sold
Posted by: Jbuuty
» "Messiah" meant different things to different people and still does.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: What is the world coming to?
Posted by: solrev
» RE: What is the world coming to?
Posted by: Sojourner
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wawa on Oct 31, 2007 5:44 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Balancing the Christian Voice + Organizing the Christian Left.
Some Recent Topics of RESPECTFUL Discussion:
Middle East Peace,
Taking the Bible Seriously, Not Literally,
Progressive Cohesiveness
Diplomatic Immunity for Blackwater
Oh, BTW, you don't even need to be a believer to join in:
http://www.crossleft.org
All we ask is for respectful dialog; no bashing!
Last last week in Boston over 900 Progressive Christians attended the largest conference held by Sabeel/Arabic for THE WAY in the U.S.A.
Desmond Tutu, Naim Ateek, Noam Chomsky, Anat Biletzki, Phyllis Bennis, Jeff Halper, and others addressed:
The Apartheid Paradigm in Palestine-Israel: Issues of Justice & Peace
So many people stood in line to register at the last minute for the Saturday sessions of the Boston Sabeel conference that for the first time, Sabeel turned people away.
The event drew opposition from pro-occupation and pro-Zionist groups in the wider Boston area.
10,000 marched against the war in Iraq on 10/27/07 alongside Progressive Christians for Justice and Peace at the Jewish Voice for Peace Rally in Copley Square.
LEARN MORE:
http://www.fosna.org/
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» RE: The Christian LEFT HAS RISEN UP!!!
Posted by: thekidde
» The Christian LEFT HAS RISEN UP!!!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: The Christian LEFT HAS RISEN UP!!!
Posted by: DrTony
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PJAW on Oct 31, 2007 5:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The thing that is weirdest for me, is when people get so scared that their particular stories might not be true, that they kill other people for simply mentioning the possibility. I like all the stories myself, they show a lot of creativity and are very entertaining, and often talk about the importance of loving and tolerating one another. This will be helpful when we find ourselves in other parts of the cosmos, after we leave here. At least that's how I see it.
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Posted by: nebgirl on Oct 31, 2007 6:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I am not Christian, but
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: I am not Christian, but
Posted by: Bozwell
» RE: I am not Christian, but
Posted by: johng
» pfft! because it's a change from the warmongering christians being in the majority
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: xbj on Oct 31, 2007 6:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christianity is a pacifict religion where you lay down your own life in love for your greatest enemy if need be. To follow Christ and do as He would do in all things.
Christianism, on the other hand, is a perverted political fascist movement of power mad money-grubbing intolerance-fostering bastards (to say that is NOT to judge them but to know them by their works) who claim to be Christians but are nothing of the sort. In Christ's day they called themselves Jews, but he called them the synagogue of Satan, Pharisees, hypocrites. They plotted his murder at the hands of the Romans, because they didn't want to soil their own hands and they couldn't stand His Truth.
This is the so-called "Christian" "Right"; they are neither, they are CHRISTIANISTS, and for the love of the universe and all that's sacred, QUIT CALLING THEM CHRISTIANS.
They and their movement IS NOTHING OF THE SORT. Which is why they embrace and espouse Zionism, which is almost the same exact peversion of Judaism.
Jesus would have told the nation of Israel to give the land back to the people they took it from in 1948 and to go to America, or anywhere else on the planet save Palestine and the Middle East. That G-d is wherever any one of them are, not in a stinking plot of bloodsoaked dirt. That G-d Himself allowed them to be driven off the land 2000 years ago FOR A VERY GOOD REASON.
His own words to sting in the ears of every Zionist and Christianist and Luciferian (the authors of BOTH movements):
“But if you are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies. Pray for the happiness of those that curse you. Pray for those who hurt you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn the other cheek. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also. Give what you have to anyone who asks for it; and when things are taken away from you, don’t try to get them back. Do for others as you would like them to do for you.”
LUKE 6: 27-35
Yes, Christianity has been perverted into Christianism many times before in its long history. The Crusades, for example.
But that doesn't make it Christianity now, or Christianity then. Christianism and Zionism will always be fascist imperialism. History shows this; LET IT RECORD IT PROPERLY and MAKE CLEAR THE DIFFERENCE.
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» RE: ChristianIST power, ChristianIST power, NOT Christian power
Posted by: juanitoboy_34
» RE: ChristianIST power, ChristianIST power, NOT Christian power
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: ChristianIST power, ChristianIST power, NOT Christian power
Posted by: smarmos12
» Beautiful analysis!
Posted by: chief of okeefe
Comments are closed-
Posted by: peacelf on Oct 31, 2007 6:12 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm thinking of religious leaders like, Jim Wallis, John Shelby Spong and Obery Hendricks Jr. whose books trump the Left Behind series in reality and thoughtfulness.
And, Jesus scholars like John Domonic Crossan, Marcus Borg, Elaine Pagels, to name a few, have debunked the mythology surrounding the Jesus message.
According to the above mentioned scholars, inside the Bible lies of message of love, compassion, justice and hope for all humanity, no one excluded, and heaven and hell are here on earth, depending on your perception and politics. Empires are evil and church leaders who cowtow to right- wing politicians are Pharisees trying to keep their parishioners out of "God's Kingdom"--Jesus' utopian vision of a better world "on earth as it is in heaven."
As I stated elsewhere on Alternet: it will take Christian insiders to reform the church. The fundamentalist bashers, like the author of the above article, will do little to change the Christian mind. It's easy to sit on your high horse and bitch. Go do something! Join a church and reform it.
peace and love
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» RE: "Join a church and reform it."
Posted by: boydranchitos
» RE: "Join a church..." as a matter of fact...
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: Yes, Change is Coming..
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Yes, Change is Coming..
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Yes, Change is Coming..And yes - READ the Times article!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Yes, Change is Coming..And yes - READ the Times article!
Posted by: solrev
» Seriously, non-theists do not not believe in god. They simply don't give it a thought.
Posted by: JoAnne
» RE: Seriously, non-theists do not not believe in god. They simply don't give it a thought.
Posted by: Basenjis
» Yes, some of us can be wordy. Yet we don't wake up thinking, "God what have You for me today?"
Posted by: JoAnne
» RE: Constantinian vs Prophetic Christians
Posted by: peacelf
» Re: change is coming: love the idea, but here's what some evangelicals wrote to Spong:
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Cynicism is a symptom of nihilism
Posted by: peacelf
» Cynicism? Quotes and experience.
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: macaac on Oct 31, 2007 6:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: follow the MONEY
Posted by: boydranchitos
» RE: Money is the motivation behind the emerging Church's change of heart
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Churches turn to social services for fun and profit
Posted by: scheherezade
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Posted by: JSquercia on Oct 31, 2007 6:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 31, 2007 7:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» They finally realize that Jesus and Bush
Posted by: Ellie1
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Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Oct 31, 2007 7:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I feel ambivalence toward all institutions--name one that doesn't fit your description.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: I feel ambivalence toward all institutions--name one that doesn't fit your description.
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Hypocrites Exploit Jesus Name and Message - Here is a short poem I wrote years ago
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Hypocrites Exploit Jesus Name and Message - Here is a short poem I wrote years ago
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE Here is a short poem I wrote years ago - Thanks
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» I really like poetry
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: I really like poetry - Sorry no
Posted by: UnEasyOne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: StPeteRican on Oct 31, 2007 7:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: LeeAnnG on Oct 31, 2007 7:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The most appalling belief among virtually every Christian I know - with notable exceptions - is that if one does not believe in Jesus as a deity and savior of humankind, that person will wind up in a very, very bad place for eternity. The images of what that place is like do vary from the worst scenario of a fiery lake to being deprived of the presence and love of god. Even the latter is rather nasty since everyone knows how it feels to have the love of a parent taken away.
Even if I were able to accept a 2,000 year old mythology based upon even older notions written by people who thought the world was flat and never heard of bacteria, black holes, or the American continents, the concept of hell of any kind would be a deterent. It's just too absurd and mean-spirited to think that one's beliefs are the deciding factor in how a person's soul will spend the afterlife (if there is such a thing). This is thought-policing at its very, very worst.
So no matter how benevolent, well-meaning, or even socially worthy the efforts of the evangelical right may be, there's still the matter of exclusivity, reliance on outdated and sometimes even loopy concepts, and that "you will go to hell if you don't believe what I believe" aspect to it all.
It still amazes me that so many even intelligent people can adhere to human-created mythologies that contradict scientific study. It's incredible that "faith" is such a highly touted attribute, often far more than reliance on imperical evidence. In fact, I often encounter derision, both in the media and among my Christian friends, when it comes to science. It's called a "belief" system, as if religion and science are somehow comparable, and religion comes out on top for these people. The fact that scientific thought keeps changing and updating as more information is gathered is seen by many religious folk as a negative and kind of an informational "flip-flop." "Jesus never changes his mind" is so much better for them.
Not too long ago, I posted on CommonDreams concerning some of this and got a reply that I "disapprove" of Christians. This is absurd! I don't disapprove of them. I don't "hate" their Jesus, and I don't think any of them will ever be punished for what goes on in their heads. I don't think this about any religion.
I simply think all religions are created by humans in order to explain the unexplainable, to present guidelines on how to live well (see Joseph Campbell for more compelling arguments about the purpose of mythology), and to assuage fears of dying and the unknown.
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» John l. RE: The ugliness of religious certainty
Posted by: JOHN L.
» Religion and morality
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: eligion and morality
Posted by: Jefferson's Guardian
» RE: eligion and morality
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: eligion and morality
Posted by: babs
» "We are more than our physical bodies" - Robert Monroe
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: "We are more than our physical bodies" NOT
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» Everything has an opposite
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» "all religions are created by humans in order to explain the unexplainable" Science, too.
Posted by: Sojourner
» I envy you!
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» Gave me chills.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: RODNOX on Oct 31, 2007 8:18 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ODNOX
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: willymack on Oct 31, 2007 10:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: bobtr900 on Oct 31, 2007 10:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WWJD? I think I know, He would never endorse killing. These new evangelicals are on the right track as far as I'mconcerned. When one claims to know and acts as if one knows and FORCES ones beliefs onto others that is the sin of PRIDE; 'and the worst of these is the first' which refers to the sin of PRIDE.
No one can know, certainly not in this life. We all are nothing more than human beings and getting too far away from that simple and humble thought and related actions is hypocrisy, blasphemy and heresy. The agnostics, like Bill Mahr, claming they just don't know are more right than the right wingers claiming that they KNOW, they now it all and the are somehow perfect in their knowledge and understanding. This is where not only the evangelical fundies are wrong but so too are the Catholic fundies, including the Pope and the crew on EWTN, the Catholic cable channel, are wrongand way far from the path that the true Jesus set for us during His time on earth.
Many people have to make a choice, here is where FREE WILL, comes in; it is the right and rsponsibility to choose wisely grasshopper but to choose only for oneself. One makes a wise choice when one does ones best to follow ones own conscience, as God requires us to do. Forcing our personal choices onto others deprives/ denies. strips othes of their own God given Free Will. And no one ever has any right to do that, not even the Pope has that right. Doing that and then claiming to do so in the name of God is among the most corrupt things I can think of.
Quit possibly the gospel of St. Thomas is the most accurate gospel. It says that Jesus said, when asked by the apostles, 'that we all have all that we need within us and all about us'. The Pope fights or the institution of the church, but Jesus never endorsed any single institutional/ man-made church.
The institutional church of the Pope is not the church of Jesus, IMHO; at least not for me and that is that is what I am responsible for. Again IMHO I think the Pope is way far wrong, But thats just me. I will know what ever God allows me to know and it will is coming soon. And I am ready, and with a clear conscience, for me.
Their may be a test coming for all of us Catholics. Russia seems to be among the top three things/entities on the Popes hitlist, after abortionand homosexuals. The Pope would have us believe that the Virgin Mary was sent by Jesus to warn of Russia. Now if we are to nuke Russia the Pope can count me out. I'll have no part of it. Is that why Cheney and Boosh are deliberately doing things to provoke Russia, because the Pope told them to do it.
These new evangelicals so far seem to be on the right track, at least in-so-far as I see it. If they stay on that track then I have common ground with them, possibly even huge common ground. Any way I have hope... I find that sustaining to my spirit, albeit not my body and the spirit is more important than the body.
Why do I go at the Pope and his followers so pointedly? IMHO I Think they are wrong, certainly wrong for me. Others have to make their own decisions, and I hope that everyone will do so at a very conscious level.
Any religion that vilifies, and that is the the best word I can think of, others of the children of God is way far off the path set by Jesus. The Catholic Church has been vilifying women and Jews for nearly it's entire 2000 year history. And that is very wrong.
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» RE: Sounds to me...
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: thekidde on Oct 31, 2007 11:03 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» "You can fool some of the people all of the time."
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: thekidde
Posted by: Jbuuty
» I'll take wisdom over intelligence every time.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: I'll take wisdom over intelligence every time.
Posted by: Jbuuty
» One shot is correct
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: patsy6 on Oct 31, 2007 10:53 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Being a bit "touchy" there, don't you think?
Posted by: Sojourner
» Gee - ya think?
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Gee - ya think?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Intolerance is Blind
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» Great posts here, LeeAnnG, all of them n/m
Posted by: fork
» Thank you!
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Intolerance is Blind
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Intolerance is Blind
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Intolerance is Blind
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» RE: Intolerance is Blind
Posted by: MeridaLady
» RE: Intolerance is Blind
Posted by: babs
» Yep
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: SufiLizard on Oct 31, 2007 12:15 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I spent last evening at a special service honoring St. Marcellus a 3rd century conscientious objector and martyr with a number of fellow peace-and-social-justice-loving Christians from a wide variety of denominations. And this took place in the Bascillica at Notre Dame University in South Bend, Indiana.
What passes as mainstream Christianity right now, is in my opinion, a total abomination of what Christ was all about. And this isn't a new phenomena, there were warring factions in Christianity from the earliest times. And in my opinion, there have been people who used the faith to exploit their own thirst for power from the very beginning.
That has happened to all religions in history. Christianity is no different.
But look at the influence of Christianity on the great pioneers of non-violence like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and even Ghandi. I just learned last night that Ghandi began and ended every day of the last 40 years of his life reading Matthew 5, 6 and 7. He read those passages twice a day every day for 40 years because he found Christ to be the greatest example of active non-violence in human history.
Of course Ghandi also remarked that Christians were the only ones in the world who didn't realize that. And he would never have characterized himself as a Christian. But the core of the message was with him and is with many of us to this day.
Don't let the loudest mouths speak for all of us. A genuine, peace-loving faith can be a VERY beneficial thing. Just as exploitative, self-centered faith can be a VERY destructive thing.
It's the yin and the yang, if I may be allowed to borrow a concept outside the Judeo-Christian tradition.
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» Many philosophies to explore
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» no offense, but...
Posted by: inverse_agonist
» RE: no offense, but...
Posted by: Jbuuty
» Susie hates Christians because they are Christians
Posted by: Philip Newton
» Perhaps reading the title and opening paragraphs would clear things up for anyone. . .
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Not Lumping all Christians together
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: Not Lumping all Christians together
Posted by: peacelf
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Posted by: desirenot on Oct 31, 2007 12:56 PM
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You are no better than those who rally people behind the banners you despise. You are simply holding a banner of a different color. Do you believe it to be who you are, what you are? Think about this.
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» please reply
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» I wondered the same thing!
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» "G" "o" "d" is a word, a name. So is Allah, Jahweh, Krishna, Atman, etc.
Posted by: Sojourner
» Vowels in Hebrew
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Vowels in Hebrew
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: What is your name?
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Vowels in Hebrew
Posted by: LeeAnnG
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» Truth Crushed To Earth Will Rise Again!
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
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Posted by: aka_bozo on Oct 31, 2007 3:38 PM
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But, once again the people with the empathetic psychology (and, just coincidentally, ALSO having an empathetic imaginary-friend) are only talking AT the people with the mean psychology (and, ALSO having a mean imaginary-friend – which, MUST be JUST a coincidence). And visa-versa.
The people withOUT an imaginary-friend are still waiting for you guys to work this out. We’ve been waiting, oh – 2000 years now. Can your imaginary-friend call their imaginary-friend and do lunch?
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Posted by: solrev on Oct 31, 2007 3:46 PM
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» RE: People are strange
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Oct 31, 2007 3:45 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
include figuring out when the second coming would be required, assuming
that the bible was 100% true in the year zero. That is, when would the
bible be down to 50% true? The popular and professors' answer in 1965
was the year 500. The true answer: A friend of mine was born and
raised in Budapest, Hungary. As an adult, he came here and stayed.
After 25 years, he visited his home town of Budapest. He was unable to
communicate with his high school classmates because the Hungarian
language had changed so much. The correct answer is less than 25 years.
The first gospel was not written down until 50 years after the alleged
events and then in a different language. The people who told the story
were at about the same level of civilization as "wild Indians", I mean
Native Americans before Columbus got here. We have all played or seen
played the game called "Telephone" in which a story is passed down a line
of re-tellers. By the Sixth re-telling, the story has no resemblance to the
original. The gospel story had to have been re-told at least 6 times before
it was mis-translated the first time. Conclusion: There is no truth
anywhere in the bible, and there never was.
ALL of the jurisdictions that were formerly in the jurisdiction of religion
have been taken over by Science. There is no longer a need to debate the
issue. Religion is an unfortunate side effect of a major and ongoing step in
evolution. [Not that evolution has a predetermined direction. We could
devolve, but we have to get over religion or go extinct. "God" will not
save us from the consequences of global warming or an asteroid impact
because there is no such critter as "god.".] Ethics and morality are
instinctive, not derived from religion. Look up "Sociobiology". The
origin of the Universe is the subject of Cosmology which is part of
astronomy which is part of the science of physics.
Religion is a SCAM. ANY religion, there are 10,000 to choose from.
ALL preachers, priests, imams, rabbis, iatolas, etc. belong in jail for "grand
theft bunko".
SCIENCE IS NOT A RELIGION. Science is nothing like
religion. Science is self-correcting. There is no dogma in
science.
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» Hear, hear...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» You want to do what?!
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» Sociobiology, no proof of it
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Science itself is not a religion, but many who claim to be scientific. . .
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Oct 31, 2007 4:15 PM
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Second, there is absolutely no evidence for a god of any kind. So any decisions made by politicians based on Jesus or God should be viewed as ignorant, inane, or insane, in that order.
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» Religious insanity is here and now in the White House!
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
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Posted by: sofla100 on Oct 31, 2007 5:36 PM
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Posted by: Staggo on Oct 31, 2007 6:29 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Young evangelicas do have new priorites.
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: luckypuck on Oct 31, 2007 10:30 PM
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To the degree that government is religious, it is not government. To the degree that religion is political, it is not religious.
Government is grounded in laws which are based on concrete, objective, provable facts. Religion is grounded in laws that are based on deep-seated, subjective, incontestable beliefs.
To be representative of all the diversity a democracy’s rights and freedoms engender, especially freedom of thought, requires a secular government. In order to maintain orthodoxy and a unified adherence to doctrine and prevent schism, especially from freedom of thought, theocracy requires a state-established church (well, actually a church-established state, like Iran).
Never should the twain meet and God grant they never do.
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» Separation of Church and State was church position before it was a government position
Posted by: Jbuuty
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Posted by: talkville on Nov 1, 2007 12:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They are by no means gone, and have a long, dismal trail behind them; always intent on the imposition of their faith-structure upon the entire universe by exclusion of anyone or anything which differs from it.
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Posted by: compu on Nov 1, 2007 1:24 AM
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be able of mind control.What can be worse than abuse
a child,they do not as an isolated cases,but by the hundreds.
Can any one believer in such punishments do crimes like that?
Now this links about the Vatican shenanigans.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=masons+at+the+vatican
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Posted by: dkm on Nov 1, 2007 6:20 PM
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This same attitude is also dominant in the rightwing reactionary Christianist movement. It explains why Bush and his ilk are able to trample on democratic traditions with impunity, and it explains why so many authoritarian types like Dobson are so powerful. When you are brought up from the very beginning believing that submission to authority is the only morally correct avenue in any situation, then you don't really notice when you have lost your freedom. That is why democracy and freedom are only slogans in the Bush administration and not even that among the Christianists.
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Posted by: diamondvajra on Nov 1, 2007 9:31 PM
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Posted by: Philip Newton on Nov 2, 2007 6:07 AM
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Yep. Don't see any Left Coast Pseudo social liberals making any, either. It's the blue collar that gets stained with blood.
Susie writes: "The class divisions between the have-nots, have-littles, and the White House are finally deep enough to hurt, and all the flag-waving and fag-bashing won't make it go away."
True. And all the pet bedroom causes of the quasi-progressive social butterfliess which often further divide the Great Unwashed aren't going to make one damned bit of difference, either.
Ignorant, distorted rants such as this this writer's are merely condoned hate speech. The writer would do better to pick up a book and read about what real Christian thought entails, rather than further distorting the already pathetic grotesque that is American Christiandom.
I suggest CS Lewis's "Mere Christianity" for starters.
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» You won't find many of Lewis's Mere Christians in the ranks of fundamentalist America
Posted by: Beck
» Have you read Lewis?
Posted by: Philip Newton
» Indeed I have read Lewis, and know of his born-again experience; the article was not about. . .
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Indeed I have read Lewis, and know of his born-again experience; the article was not about. . .
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: talkville on Nov 4, 2007 3:13 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Good question
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: ccluelessfl60 on Nov 7, 2007 6:40 AM
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