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Sex and Relationships

The Evangelical Movement's Breakdown Ain't so Cute After All

By Susie Bright, SusieBright.com. Posted October 31, 2007.


Don't be fooled by NY Times Magazine's feature story this weekend about the religious right's nice, new image. Christian power is not about holding hands and thinking good thoughts.
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Is the religious right ready to get their hands out of America's underwear? Is the shame margin not paying off the way it used to?

New York Times reporter David Kirkpatrick takes apart "The Evangelical Crackup" in this past Sunday Magazine, in what is sure to be one of the most talked-about stories of the pre-election season.

He interviews a number of pastors and politicos from the conservative churches -- the bedrock of the "Moral Majority" and the base that won the Bush family their votes.

This is the movement that could be relied upon to do anything at the flick of an abortion-shaming or homo-hating switch. Get them on their high horse, with a sexy leather crop in their hands, and you had them sweating and frothing their way to the finish line.

By Kirkpatrick's assessment, the coalition is now blown to smithereens, for a number of reasons. I was disappointed with his analysis, but the raw material is fascinating to review:

1. The Oedipal Split. The old dudes of the Moral Majority are dying, or at least creaking -- and the hip young pastors coming up can't wait to dethrone the old poops. The younger congregations -- which are the only ones growing -- don't wanna listen to grandpa scream "Get Thee Behind Me, Satan" -- they're embarrassed by him. They don't want to look stupid about evolution. They wish they were as cool as The Daily Show.

2. The religious right got tied like a tin can to the tail of the GOP, and lately, that's like being dragged through the streets on a bed of nails. The new line among the moderate church folk is, "We shouldn't have gotten involved in politics in the first place." They say the religious community should be a pure covenant that doesn't take partisan sides. Besides, the current crop of Republican presidential weirdos candidates make their stomachs hurt.

3. "Be the first one on your block to have your boy come home in a box." The War is unpopular, and everyone blames Bush. The Fundie rank and file have seen their kids killed and maimed, and they don't see the Bush clan making any sacrifices. Meanwhile, the oil profiteering is hurting everyone who doesn't have a major share in Halliburton. The class divisions between the have-nots, have-littles, and the White House are finally deep enough to hurt, and all the flag-waving and fag-bashing won't make it go away.

Kirkpatrick got a lot of the young ministers on the record speaking about how they didn't want to be known for what they were against, they want to be associated with positive efforts, like fighting poverty and racism in their own communities. Taking global warming and environmental issues seriously! Promoting peace rather than blood or oil thirst. He even got one pastor to admit he didn't think having an an abortion or being gay was necessarily going to send anyone to hell. My, my!

On the face of it, these developments are very touching, and they reflect the changes I see in my own small town. The white Christian churches in Santa Cruz have thrown themselves into helping people with drug rehab, especially those suffering from the meth scourge. The old-school surfing community here is divided between dealers and born-again's, and the Xtians have really gained a lot of ground. They do food fund-raising drives, the pastors are famous for their marital counseling services, they clean up the beaches. They sponsor straight-edge hardcore music shows. They are supportive to families who've been devastated by the war, and the obvious sentiment is, "This was so unnecessary, Jesus doesn't like it."


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Susie Bright is an author, editor, and journalist known for her original and pioneering work in sexual politics and erotic expression. She writes about sex and politics every day at her blog.

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Perception vs Reality
Posted by: NoPCZone on Oct 31, 2007 1:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They want to bee seen as people of faith who wish to be heard in the political process. What they desire is a de facto theocracy of their choosing- not one of personal choice.

Everything else comes out of that simple fact.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Perception vs Reality Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Perception vs Reality Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Perception vs Reality Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Perception vs Reality Posted by: Wacre
» RE: Perception vs Reality Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Posted by: planet doomed
» RE: Perception vs Reality Posted by: jbur816
» No one cares about your scorecard Posted by: boydranchitos
» RE: No one cares about your scorecard Posted by: planet doomed
» OK ... "not all" -- but ENOUGH Posted by: BenCaxton12
» 1 for you too. Posted by: utilitarianist
» Social Evolution Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Social Evolution Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Who are these people? Posted by: solrev
With all the damage that's been done, the True Believers can afford to take a breather.
Posted by: Sojourner on Oct 31, 2007 3:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The notion of the US as a Christian theocracy is built into the Biblical history. The "framing" (to use Lakoff's term) of our Judeo-Christian-Islamic heritage continually uses the terminology of royalty, where divinity is the reigning political power as well as a source of inspiration.

Consequently, for those who find democracy difficult--and it is and always will be--the solution is theocracy. When I was young, I was sure that pattern was disappearing, and it has in Europe. But here in Bible belt America, it comes and goes as regularly as the seasons.

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» RE: The Greatest Story Ever Sold Posted by: boydranchitos
The Christian LEFT HAS RISEN UP!!!
Posted by: wawa on Oct 31, 2007 5:44 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JOIN the DEBATE with DEEP THINKING NONJUDGMENTAL Justice and Peace, Open Minded about the Mystery of Sexual attraction Christians on CROSSLEFT:

Balancing the Christian Voice + Organizing the Christian Left.

Some Recent Topics of RESPECTFUL Discussion:

Middle East Peace,
Taking the Bible Seriously, Not Literally,
Progressive Cohesiveness
Diplomatic Immunity for Blackwater

Oh, BTW, you don't even need to be a believer to join in:

http://www.crossleft.org

All we ask is for respectful dialog; no bashing!





Last last week in Boston over 900 Progressive Christians attended the largest conference held by Sabeel/Arabic for THE WAY in the U.S.A.

Desmond Tutu, Naim Ateek, Noam Chomsky, Anat Biletzki, Phyllis Bennis, Jeff Halper, and others addressed:

The Apartheid Paradigm in Palestine-Israel: Issues of Justice & Peace



So many people stood in line to register at the last minute for the Saturday sessions of the Boston Sabeel conference that for the first time, Sabeel turned people away.


The event drew opposition from pro-occupation and pro-Zionist groups in the wider Boston area.

10,000 marched against the war in Iraq on 10/27/07 alongside Progressive Christians for Justice and Peace at the Jewish Voice for Peace Rally in Copley Square.


LEARN MORE:

http://www.fosna.org/

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Hmmm..., still here...
Posted by: PJAW on Oct 31, 2007 5:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I say that just about every morning when I get up. Sometimes I contemplate what lies beyond, if anything. It's interesting, inasmuch as the possibilities are without limit. I guess that can be as scary as it is entertaining. Most of us want our Daddy when things get scary. Or we want to be around people that we know and trust, who love us and whom we love. I imagine that's where we come up with the various stories we have for explaining things. And why we gather in groups to tell them to each other, over and over.

The thing that is weirdest for me, is when people get so scared that their particular stories might not be true, that they kill other people for simply mentioning the possibility. I like all the stories myself, they show a lot of creativity and are very entertaining, and often talk about the importance of loving and tolerating one another. This will be helpful when we find ourselves in other parts of the cosmos, after we leave here. At least that's how I see it.

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I am not Christian, but
Posted by: nebgirl on Oct 31, 2007 6:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As far as I can tell, there are more Christians actively involved in the antiwar movement here in Omaha than any other religious or non religious group.

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» RE: I am not Christian, but Posted by: Bozwell
ChristianIST power, ChristianIST power, NOT Christian power
Posted by: xbj on Oct 31, 2007 6:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The single most greatest weapon in the anti-Christian Christianist arsenal is people ascribing Christianity to the movement and to themselves when it and they are every bit as far from true Christianity as taught, lived, and died by Jesus Christ, as Nazism.

Christianity is a pacifict religion where you lay down your own life in love for your greatest enemy if need be. To follow Christ and do as He would do in all things.

Christianism, on the other hand, is a perverted political fascist movement of power mad money-grubbing intolerance-fostering bastards (to say that is NOT to judge them but to know them by their works) who claim to be Christians but are nothing of the sort. In Christ's day they called themselves Jews, but he called them the synagogue of Satan, Pharisees, hypocrites. They plotted his murder at the hands of the Romans, because they didn't want to soil their own hands and they couldn't stand His Truth.

This is the so-called "Christian" "Right"; they are neither, they are CHRISTIANISTS, and for the love of the universe and all that's sacred, QUIT CALLING THEM CHRISTIANS.

They and their movement IS NOTHING OF THE SORT. Which is why they embrace and espouse Zionism, which is almost the same exact peversion of Judaism.

Jesus would have told the nation of Israel to give the land back to the people they took it from in 1948 and to go to America, or anywhere else on the planet save Palestine and the Middle East. That G-d is wherever any one of them are, not in a stinking plot of bloodsoaked dirt. That G-d Himself allowed them to be driven off the land 2000 years ago FOR A VERY GOOD REASON.

His own words to sting in the ears of every Zionist and Christianist and Luciferian (the authors of BOTH movements):

“But if you are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies. Pray for the happiness of those that curse you. Pray for those who hurt you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn the other cheek. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also. Give what you have to anyone who asks for it; and when things are taken away from you, don’t try to get them back. Do for others as you would like them to do for you.”

LUKE 6: 27-35

Yes, Christianity has been perverted into Christianism many times before in its long history. The Crusades, for example.

But that doesn't make it Christianity now, or Christianity then. Christianism and Zionism will always be fascist imperialism. History shows this; LET IT RECORD IT PROPERLY and MAKE CLEAR THE DIFFERENCE.

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» Beautiful analysis! Posted by: chief of okeefe
Change is Coming..
Posted by: peacelf on Oct 31, 2007 6:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's inevitable that Evangelicals will "see the light' of the wrongheadedness of their hate-mongering messages. There is a strong movement for change that is lead by a group of very intelligent and influential, honest and liberal (in the classic sense) Christian ministers and Jesus scholars.

I'm thinking of religious leaders like, Jim Wallis, John Shelby Spong and Obery Hendricks Jr. whose books trump the Left Behind series in reality and thoughtfulness.

And, Jesus scholars like John Domonic Crossan, Marcus Borg, Elaine Pagels, to name a few, have debunked the mythology surrounding the Jesus message.

According to the above mentioned scholars, inside the Bible lies of message of love, compassion, justice and hope for all humanity, no one excluded, and heaven and hell are here on earth, depending on your perception and politics. Empires are evil and church leaders who cowtow to right- wing politicians are Pharisees trying to keep their parishioners out of "God's Kingdom"--Jesus' utopian vision of a better world "on earth as it is in heaven."

As I stated elsewhere on Alternet: it will take Christian insiders to reform the church. The fundamentalist bashers, like the author of the above article, will do little to change the Christian mind. It's easy to sit on your high horse and bitch. Go do something! Join a church and reform it.

peace and love

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» RE: "Join a church and reform it." Posted by: boydranchitos
» RE: Yes, Change is Coming.. Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Yes, Change is Coming.. Posted by: HoboHomo
Money is the motivation behind the emerging Church's change of heart
Posted by: macaac on Oct 31, 2007 6:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pardon me for being so cynical, I live in the Bible Belt and me and most of my liberal friends have stopped attending church because of the severe right-wing propaganda spewing forth from the pulpit on any given Sunday. As Kirkpatrick described in his NYT article, it's difficult for the Christian conscious to reconcile Bush Cheney GOP actions with the teachings of Christ. While I agree that may be a factor for the change of heart, I see the modern church, any church for that matter, as a business. The "Faith Based Initiative" was, I suspect, supposed to compensate the churches for their support of the Bush Cheney GOP debacle, but losing members right and left has cut into their profits. I haven't seen any stats on church attendance during the Bush Cheney GOP 7 year tribulation but I don't hear anyone asking upon a first meeting "What church do you attend?" anymore. Seems to me the "church" and again, any church, is moving to the soft sell, but you can bet the "snake is still in the pit" and it's just a different flavor of kool aid their pushing now.

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» RE: follow the MONEY Posted by: boydranchitos
How Interesting
Posted by: JSquercia on Oct 31, 2007 6:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How Interesting that Terry Fox would so accurately describe his ilk as snakes hiding in hole and ready to strike . He inadvertantly desribes himself and HIS followers quite correctly . Perhaps Rev Fox should remember that it was the serpant (ie snake) that corrupted man and led to the banishment from the Garden of Eden

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THEY ARE IN TROUBLE AND FEELING HUMBLE
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 31, 2007 7:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I Read the Times article and I agree that it's early to celebrate. But Bush has let these people down. They are disappointed and find that they have the same concerns as the rest of us. Somehow they thought they were 'special' and Bush would take care of them. Guess not. They are much weaker than 8 yrs. ago and can no longer function as the self absorbed superior group they once were. They also need health insurance and jobs. Thanks, ANNA

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Hypocrites Exploit Jesus Name and Message
Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Oct 31, 2007 7:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
True followers of Jesus would close down their churches, give the buildings to the homeless, disperse their wealth to the poor and walk among the people quoting his teachings, as did Francis of Assisi. The Catholic Church "Sainted" him, but continues to ignore his example. Catholic Dorothy Day, who practiced her vow of poverty while helping the homeless, said: "Live simply that others may simply live" - but organized Christianity does exactly the opposite.

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» I really like poetry Posted by: Constitutionalist75
Faith Based Initiative
Posted by: StPeteRican on Oct 31, 2007 7:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That sums it up. These churches want a piece of the Bush giveaway to churches, hence they attempt to sound more inclusive in order to secure the pile of taxpayer money. And as we all know charities get more money the more clients they serve, so they appear to be softer on thorny issues to attract those who wouldn't otherwise seek their services. The best example is churches after the huge (which is not really that huge, it just sounds it) pile of money the Federal government gives to AIDS non-profits through the Ryan White CARE ACT. I have seen it first hand, since I was a member of the CARE Council in the 9 county area I live in.

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The ugliness of religious certainty
Posted by: LeeAnnG on Oct 31, 2007 7:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've been an agnostic ever since, at the age of 15, I stopped going to the evangelical church my grandparents took me to. My parents were agnostics or atheists, but they had no objection to my going to church, for which I am eternally grateful because I had years of exposure to the notions and mythology of the Christian religion.

The most appalling belief among virtually every Christian I know - with notable exceptions - is that if one does not believe in Jesus as a deity and savior of humankind, that person will wind up in a very, very bad place for eternity. The images of what that place is like do vary from the worst scenario of a fiery lake to being deprived of the presence and love of god. Even the latter is rather nasty since everyone knows how it feels to have the love of a parent taken away.

Even if I were able to accept a 2,000 year old mythology based upon even older notions written by people who thought the world was flat and never heard of bacteria, black holes, or the American continents, the concept of hell of any kind would be a deterent. It's just too absurd and mean-spirited to think that one's beliefs are the deciding factor in how a person's soul will spend the afterlife (if there is such a thing). This is thought-policing at its very, very worst.

So no matter how benevolent, well-meaning, or even socially worthy the efforts of the evangelical right may be, there's still the matter of exclusivity, reliance on outdated and sometimes even loopy concepts, and that "you will go to hell if you don't believe what I believe" aspect to it all.

It still amazes me that so many even intelligent people can adhere to human-created mythologies that contradict scientific study. It's incredible that "faith" is such a highly touted attribute, often far more than reliance on imperical evidence. In fact, I often encounter derision, both in the media and among my Christian friends, when it comes to science. It's called a "belief" system, as if religion and science are somehow comparable, and religion comes out on top for these people. The fact that scientific thought keeps changing and updating as more information is gathered is seen by many religious folk as a negative and kind of an informational "flip-flop." "Jesus never changes his mind" is so much better for them.

Not too long ago, I posted on CommonDreams concerning some of this and got a reply that I "disapprove" of Christians. This is absurd! I don't disapprove of them. I don't "hate" their Jesus, and I don't think any of them will ever be punished for what goes on in their heads. I don't think this about any religion.

I simply think all religions are created by humans in order to explain the unexplainable, to present guidelines on how to live well (see Joseph Campbell for more compelling arguments about the purpose of mythology), and to assuage fears of dying and the unknown.

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» Religion and morality Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: eligion and morality Posted by: Jefferson's Guardian
» RE: eligion and morality Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: eligion and morality Posted by: babs
» Everything has an opposite Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» I envy you! Posted by: LeeAnnG
» Gave me chills. Posted by: Sojourner
RODNOX
Posted by: RODNOX on Oct 31, 2007 8:18 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ORGANIZED RELIGION IS SUCH A SHAM ----CONTROL THE MASSES---BASTARDIZE SPIRITUALITY----TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE MENTALLY CHALLENGED--------------THEY SHOULD NEVER HAVE ANY LEGITIMATE SAY IN GOVT ANYTHING.........THEY ALSO START ALL THE WARS----------LIKE GEORGE KARLIN SAYS '' KEEP YOUR RELIGION TO YOUR SELF ''..........WATCH MOVIE---ZEITGEIST.........

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» RE: ODNOX Posted by: thekidde
Self destructing?
Posted by: willymack on Oct 31, 2007 10:25 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It may seem that the Religious Right (wrong) is on the decline, what with Reality literally beating down their doors, but don't kid yourself; charlatans and other evildoers among the human species are quite capable of dusting off old and discredited nonsense and presenting it anew to the thinking-challenged who will always exist in alarmingly large numbers. No matter how much makeup and perfume you use, that hog will still oink.

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Sounds to me...
Posted by: bobtr900 on Oct 31, 2007 10:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...like what I thought true evangelization was all about. Sounds to me like Jimmy and Rosalind Carter evangelism, the right kind of evangelism, the loving kind of evangelism. Without love, respect, caring, concern and humility all are lost. Any religious group or individual who acts without thos attributes is truly against the teachings of Jesus, the real Jesus, not the George Bush jesus(small j).

WWJD? I think I know, He would never endorse killing. These new evangelicals are on the right track as far as I'mconcerned. When one claims to know and acts as if one knows and FORCES ones beliefs onto others that is the sin of PRIDE; 'and the worst of these is the first' which refers to the sin of PRIDE.

No one can know, certainly not in this life. We all are nothing more than human beings and getting too far away from that simple and humble thought and related actions is hypocrisy, blasphemy and heresy. The agnostics, like Bill Mahr, claming they just don't know are more right than the right wingers claiming that they KNOW, they now it all and the are somehow perfect in their knowledge and understanding. This is where not only the evangelical fundies are wrong but so too are the Catholic fundies, including the Pope and the crew on EWTN, the Catholic cable channel, are wrongand way far from the path that the true Jesus set for us during His time on earth.

Many people have to make a choice, here is where FREE WILL, comes in; it is the right and rsponsibility to choose wisely grasshopper but to choose only for oneself. One makes a wise choice when one does ones best to follow ones own conscience, as God requires us to do. Forcing our personal choices onto others deprives/ denies. strips othes of their own God given Free Will. And no one ever has any right to do that, not even the Pope has that right. Doing that and then claiming to do so in the name of God is among the most corrupt things I can think of.

Quit possibly the gospel of St. Thomas is the most accurate gospel. It says that Jesus said, when asked by the apostles, 'that we all have all that we need within us and all about us'. The Pope fights or the institution of the church, but Jesus never endorsed any single institutional/ man-made church.

The institutional church of the Pope is not the church of Jesus, IMHO; at least not for me and that is that is what I am responsible for. Again IMHO I think the Pope is way far wrong, But thats just me. I will know what ever God allows me to know and it will is coming soon. And I am ready, and with a clear conscience, for me.

Their may be a test coming for all of us Catholics. Russia seems to be among the top three things/entities on the Popes hitlist, after abortionand homosexuals. The Pope would have us believe that the Virgin Mary was sent by Jesus to warn of Russia. Now if we are to nuke Russia the Pope can count me out. I'll have no part of it. Is that why Cheney and Boosh are deliberately doing things to provoke Russia, because the Pope told them to do it.

These new evangelicals so far seem to be on the right track, at least in-so-far as I see it. If they stay on that track then I have common ground with them, possibly even huge common ground. Any way I have hope... I find that sustaining to my spirit, albeit not my body and the spirit is more important than the body.

Why do I go at the Pope and his followers so pointedly? IMHO I Think they are wrong, certainly wrong for me. Others have to make their own decisions, and I hope that everyone will do so at a very conscious level.

Any religion that vilifies, and that is the the best word I can think of, others of the children of God is way far off the path set by Jesus. The Catholic Church has been vilifying women and Jews for nearly it's entire 2000 year history. And that is very wrong.

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» RE: Sounds to me... Posted by: thekidde
thekidde
Posted by: thekidde on Oct 31, 2007 11:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People who have "faith" in any religion are fools. I would recommend they read "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris and then try to answer his fundamental questions about their beliefs in magic, the supernatural and, hey what about those 72 virgins? Please. Get a life, you've only got one shot at it.

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» RE: thekidde Posted by: Jbuuty
» One shot is correct Posted by: Philip Newton
Intolerance is Blind
Posted by: patsy6 on Oct 31, 2007 10:53 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
AlterNet, you forgot to include the words "religion hater" in Susie Bright's byline. She uses the words "religious right" but, make no mistake, she does not care to know that not all christians are born again, and not all christians are to the right on the political spectrum. She speaks about the clinics that have opened and the fundraisers held, etc., as if it was something new. Mainstream christian churches have been doing this for many years. And yes, I'd venture to say that even some churches in Santa Clara, named after a christian saint, didn't start performing good works yesterday. That information runs contrary to the false scenario she has carefully crafted in her mind, as many of the anti-religious left have done. This type of person is as hateful and intolerant as those in the religious right, but they'll never admit it.

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» Gee - ya think? Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Gee - ya think? Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Intolerance is Blind Posted by: LeeAnnG
» Thank you! Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Intolerance is Blind Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Intolerance is Blind Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Intolerance is Blind Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» RE: Intolerance is Blind Posted by: MeridaLady
» RE: Intolerance is Blind Posted by: babs
» Yep Posted by: Philip Newton
Lumping all Christians together is as absurd as lumping all Americans together
Posted by: SufiLizard on Oct 31, 2007 12:15 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a Christian, and comparing me to Dobson is about as ridiculous as comparing you to George W. Bush.

I spent last evening at a special service honoring St. Marcellus a 3rd century conscientious objector and martyr with a number of fellow peace-and-social-justice-loving Christians from a wide variety of denominations. And this took place in the Bascillica at Notre Dame University in South Bend, Indiana.

What passes as mainstream Christianity right now, is in my opinion, a total abomination of what Christ was all about. And this isn't a new phenomena, there were warring factions in Christianity from the earliest times. And in my opinion, there have been people who used the faith to exploit their own thirst for power from the very beginning.

That has happened to all religions in history. Christianity is no different.

But look at the influence of Christianity on the great pioneers of non-violence like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and even Ghandi. I just learned last night that Ghandi began and ended every day of the last 40 years of his life reading Matthew 5, 6 and 7. He read those passages twice a day every day for 40 years because he found Christ to be the greatest example of active non-violence in human history.

Of course Ghandi also remarked that Christians were the only ones in the world who didn't realize that. And he would never have characterized himself as a Christian. But the core of the message was with him and is with many of us to this day.

Don't let the loudest mouths speak for all of us. A genuine, peace-loving faith can be a VERY beneficial thing. Just as exploitative, self-centered faith can be a VERY destructive thing.

It's the yin and the yang, if I may be allowed to borrow a concept outside the Judeo-Christian tradition.

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» Many philosophies to explore Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» no offense, but... Posted by: inverse_agonist
» RE: no offense, but... Posted by: Jbuuty
please listen
Posted by: desirenot on Oct 31, 2007 12:56 PM   
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You are vicous with your words. You must be careful. Anger and resentment do not come from the same vine as toleration and peace. Please understand this. I consider myself an enemy of god, but I don't try and divide people either. We must all live here, and if we are to do it right, we must do it together. There are no labeled boxes to put people in. True, for some it is quite that simple. But for many spiritually driven people, it is much more complicated than that. If you were as wise as you think yourself to be, you would be contemplating your existence more, and pointing fingers less.
You are no better than those who rally people behind the banners you despise. You are simply holding a banner of a different color. Do you believe it to be who you are, what you are? Think about this.

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» please reply Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» I wondered the same thing! Posted by: LeeAnnG
» Vowels in Hebrew Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Vowels in Hebrew Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: What is your name? Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Vowels in Hebrew Posted by: LeeAnnG
This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
» Truth Crushed To Earth Will Rise Again! Posted by: Constitutionalist75
Friends....
Posted by: aka_bozo on Oct 31, 2007 3:38 PM   
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Wow, interesting topic…

But, once again the people with the empathetic psychology (and, just coincidentally, ALSO having an empathetic imaginary-friend) are only talking AT the people with the mean psychology (and, ALSO having a mean imaginary-friend – which, MUST be JUST a coincidence). And visa-versa.

The people withOUT an imaginary-friend are still waiting for you guys to work this out. We’ve been waiting, oh – 2000 years now. Can your imaginary-friend call their imaginary-friend and do lunch?

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People are strange
Posted by: solrev on Oct 31, 2007 3:46 PM   
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Politics and religion have been tied together throughout history. Do you remember the 100 years of religious wars in Europe? The mass killings on both sides in Europe were as much if not more political than religious. What was the result of all that killing, the monarchs of Europe disappeared and Christianity changed. Would the world be better if the monarchs would have survived? I wonder what the result of the “religious wars” of today will be. Who will disappear and who will change?

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» RE: People are strange Posted by: Constitutionalist75
The bible is hearsay to the nth degree
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Oct 31, 2007 3:45 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a sophomore undergraduate student in Physics, your homework may
include figuring out when the second coming would be required, assuming
that the bible was 100% true in the year zero. That is, when would the
bible be down to 50% true? The popular and professors' answer in 1965
was the year 500. The true answer: A friend of mine was born and
raised in Budapest, Hungary. As an adult, he came here and stayed.
After 25 years, he visited his home town of Budapest. He was unable to
communicate with his high school classmates because the Hungarian
language had changed so much. The correct answer is less than 25 years.
The first gospel was not written down until 50 years after the alleged
events and then in a different language. The people who told the story
were at about the same level of civilization as "wild Indians", I mean
Native Americans before Columbus got here. We have all played or seen
played the game called "Telephone" in which a story is passed down a line
of re-tellers. By the Sixth re-telling, the story has no resemblance to the
original. The gospel story had to have been re-told at least 6 times before
it was mis-translated the first time. Conclusion: There is no truth
anywhere in the bible, and there never was.

ALL of the jurisdictions that were formerly in the jurisdiction of religion
have been taken over by Science. There is no longer a need to debate the
issue. Religion is an unfortunate side effect of a major and ongoing step in
evolution. [Not that evolution has a predetermined direction. We could
devolve, but we have to get over religion or go extinct. "God" will not
save us from the consequences of global warming or an asteroid impact
because there is no such critter as "god.".] Ethics and morality are
instinctive, not derived from religion. Look up "Sociobiology". The
origin of the Universe is the subject of Cosmology which is part of
astronomy which is part of the science of physics.
Religion is a SCAM. ANY religion, there are 10,000 to choose from.
ALL preachers, priests, imams, rabbis, iatolas, etc. belong in jail for "grand
theft bunko".
SCIENCE IS NOT A RELIGION. Science is nothing like
religion. Science is self-correcting. There is no dogma in
science.

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» Hear, hear... Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» You want to do what?! Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» Sociobiology, no proof of it Posted by: sofla100
First of all...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Oct 31, 2007 4:15 PM   
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...there is NOT one speck of evidence for the existence of Jesus, except for the fact that he is one of hundreds with the name at that time. So to speculate about WWJD is about as valid as WWZD (Z is for Zeus). Even those who find someone writing about a Jesus at the time will not find any writings about a Jesus that performed miracles. If this guy existed he would have made REAL history.

Second, there is absolutely no evidence for a god of any kind. So any decisions made by politicians based on Jesus or God should be viewed as ignorant, inane, or insane, in that order.

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Science Replaced Religion But Man Determines Ethics
Posted by: sofla100 on Oct 31, 2007 5:36 PM   
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Science has replaced religion. However, there is no evidence that ethics or morality are instinctive. You could look at human nature, and see just as much destructiveness as positive behaviors. Look at GW Bush and his wars. Freud believed in "thanatos" or a sort-of death instinct. So, while the desire to live is there, and cooperate at times, man is also a selfish bastard who will kill if it protects him or his tribe. That's the way it is.

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Young evangelicas do have new priorites.
Posted by: Staggo on Oct 31, 2007 6:29 PM   
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A reputable poll (forgive me; I don't recall which) of young evangelicals showed that the top three concerns were the Iraq war, health care, and their economic future. Gay marriage garnered a 2%. Also, a greater percentage believe that Christian ideals/actions ought to be locally manifested. The younger generation evangelicals visit that evil YouTube--heck, they know what the Internet is, as well as Podcasts, IM, and texting. This encourages an inevitable contact with all those evils with which the older porkers never had to contend. We Progressives really need to open this separation between generations and recognize (1) conservative Christianity isn't going away, and (2) not everything conservatively Christian is inherently obstructive. To ameliorate the destructive divisiveness of the past 25 years, the wedge politics that Progressives need to employ is that which can effectively separate the young evangelical from the old.

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luckypuck
Posted by: luckypuck on Oct 31, 2007 10:30 PM   
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The reasons for separation of church and state are crystal clear: To be a proficient politician, one must be flexible, willing to negotiate and able to compromise. To be a righteous religionist, one must be firm in one’s beliefs, adhere strictly to dogma and never, ever compromise a religious principle.

To the degree that government is religious, it is not government. To the degree that religion is political, it is not religious.

Government is grounded in laws which are based on concrete, objective, provable facts. Religion is grounded in laws that are based on deep-seated, subjective, incontestable beliefs.

To be representative of all the diversity a democracy’s rights and freedoms engender, especially freedom of thought, requires a secular government. In order to maintain orthodoxy and a unified adherence to doctrine and prevent schism, especially from freedom of thought, theocracy requires a state-established church (well, actually a church-established state, like Iran).

Never should the twain meet and God grant they never do.

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And yet
Posted by: talkville on Nov 1, 2007 12:50 AM   
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When looked at, at least in a general sense, the entire planet as well as here domestically has been and is being held hostage to the struggle between the 2 largest EVANGELIC religions -- Christianity and Islam. The conditions of our existence are showing us daily the effects of such thinking and acting.

They are by no means gone, and have a long, dismal trail behind them; always intent on the imposition of their faith-structure upon the entire universe by exclusion of anyone or anything which differs from it.

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Troyan horses
Posted by: compu on Nov 1, 2007 1:24 AM   
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They are all the same.Always full of threats and rewards to
be able of mind control.What can be worse than abuse
a child,they do not as an isolated cases,but by the hundreds.
Can any one believer in such punishments do crimes like that?
Now this links about the Vatican shenanigans.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=masons+at+the+vatican

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Christianity, Authority and Democracy
Posted by: dkm on Nov 1, 2007 6:20 PM   
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Earlier today I read a good analysis of Rudy Guiliani and why he is like he is. It looked into his childhood, his Catholic education, and his experiences since then. All of his education from K through college was oriented towards orthodox Catholocism with its emphasis on authority and obedience. This explains his statement that freedom is submitting to authority.

This same attitude is also dominant in the rightwing reactionary Christianist movement. It explains why Bush and his ilk are able to trample on democratic traditions with impunity, and it explains why so many authoritarian types like Dobson are so powerful. When you are brought up from the very beginning believing that submission to authority is the only morally correct avenue in any situation, then you don't really notice when you have lost your freedom. That is why democracy and freedom are only slogans in the Bush administration and not even that among the Christianists.

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we may...
Posted by: diamondvajra on Nov 1, 2007 9:31 PM   
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be in a hole but we can come out and bite you anytime? what the !#%! kind of "sentiment" is that from a xtian? what is this guy some dried out and bitter old coot? that's what he sounds like. unkind, mean, sour and just generally unpleasant and i promise you jc wouldn't have nothin to do with that gentile. actually the old man would probably have melted under jc's gaze.

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This is hate speech
Posted by: Philip Newton on Nov 2, 2007 6:07 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Susie writes: "The Fundie rank and file have seen their kids killed and maimed, and they don't see the Bush clan making any sacrifices."

Yep. Don't see any Left Coast Pseudo social liberals making any, either. It's the blue collar that gets stained with blood.

Susie writes: "The class divisions between the have-nots, have-littles, and the White House are finally deep enough to hurt, and all the flag-waving and fag-bashing won't make it go away."

True. And all the pet bedroom causes of the quasi-progressive social butterfliess which often further divide the Great Unwashed aren't going to make one damned bit of difference, either.

Ignorant, distorted rants such as this this writer's are merely condoned hate speech. The writer would do better to pick up a book and read about what real Christian thought entails, rather than further distorting the already pathetic grotesque that is American Christiandom.

I suggest CS Lewis's "Mere Christianity" for starters.

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» Have you read Lewis? Posted by: Philip Newton
Just Asking...
Posted by: talkville on Nov 4, 2007 3:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who, in fact, gives religionists, metaphysicists, mystics intellectual properties on the word 'faith'?? I'd sure like to meet the real, actual, flesh and blood person that a law!!

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» Good question Posted by: Philip Newton
Get a respectable hobby.
Posted by: ccluelessfl60 on Nov 7, 2007 6:40 AM   
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Why would any moral person belong to an organized religion? There is nothing Christian or holy bout perverting the words of Jesus Christ. It might have been useful when few people could read but if you can read you who needs it? Besides we are born with a certain innate ability to tell right from wrong. >Jesus's teachings are pretty straightforward ,but if you want confusion join a church. Need a social club, then find one for your interests. Want to affect political decision, then form your own party. Organized religion is a form of thought control. Think for yourself and get a new hobby> Or do what Jesus said and help your fellow man.

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