COMMENTS: 543
Pornography and the End of Masculinity
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I have always been part of the collective liberal progressive libertarian value system that accepts pornography as a legitimate expression of the First Amendment. Part of that thinking is that women participate in porn films of their own free will and that porn often represents fantasies -- though sometimes quasiviolent or degrading -- that people actually have. So as long as people are merely acting in porn films and there is no coercion, or law-breaking, it is acceptable.
But I've changed my mind. No, I'm not a prude, or anti-sex. Nor do I think there should be a national campaign to snuff out all porn. In fact, I sometimes watch certain kinds of porn. But what has become clear to me is that, under the guise of the First Amendment, a huge and powerful porn industrial complex has grown out of control. And a big part of its growth is fueled, not just by the internet, but by continually upping the ante, increasing the extremes of degradation for the women in tens of thousands of films made every year. I am convinced, although it is, of course, difficult to document, that the huge audiences for porn and the pervasiveness of the themes and behaviors of degradation are having a negative impact on the way men behave and the way society treats women.
Sexism and attitudes toward women were supposed to have gotten better after the 1960s and the feminist movement. The sons of boomers were going to be different. And while perhaps that is true in some cases, what we have instead is more violence against women and more social acceptance of demeaning male attitudes and behaviors that would have been considered out of bounds 20 or 30 years ago. As a society, we've gone backwards.
Part of my thinking on pornography has been shaped by seeing what is on the internet myself, and part, by reading Robert Jensen's powerful and provocative book, excerpted below: Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity. Jensen has convinced me that something as powerful as the porn industry and its sexual extremism must not be kept under the rug due to liberal shoulder-shrugging about the First Amendment. The porn industry should not enjoy our collective denial in terms of its real-world impact on women -- and men -- simply because we might be berated by First Amendment purists or be uncomfortable grappling with complex issues of sexual expression.
The debate must be pushed, and the consciousness raised. Many will say, don't mess with the issue because it's a slippery slope and could lead to the repression of other freedoms. I've concluded we need to take that chance. Male attitudes are potentially being shaped by ugly and sometimes disgusting abuse toward women. And tens of thousands of young women are being seduced and intimidated into lives of extreme public humiliation on-screen. The impact on their lives over the long run could be devastating.
The advent of Gonzo
One phenomenon in porn is the ascension of Gonzo films. There are two styles of films -- one are features that mimic, however badly, the Hollywood model of plot and characters. But the other, Gonzo, has no pretensions, and is simply the filming of sex acts, which, Jensen writes, while also occurring in features, are "performed in rougher fashion, often with more than one man involved, and more explicitly degrading language, which marks women as sluts, whores, cunts, nasty bitches and so on."
The Gonzo films, which have come to dominate the industry, also emphasize the newer trend of sexual acts, which include: double penetration -- anal and vaginal -- and ass to mouth, or ATM, where anal sex is followed by sticking the penis in the women's mouth. In addition, many of these films include men, often in multiple numbers, ejaculating into the faces and mouths of the women performers. The women usually swallow the semen, but also can share it mouth-to-mouth with a female partner. For Jensen, the most plausible explanation of the popularity of these acts is that women in the world, outside of pornography, don't engage in these acts unless forced. "Men know that -- and they find it sexually arousing to watch them in part because of that knowledge."
As Jerome Tanner, porn film maker, explains, "One of the things about today's porn and the extreme market, the gonzo market, is so many fans want to see much more extreme stuff that I'm always trying to figure out ways to do something different. But it seems that everybody wants to see a girl doing a double penetration or a gang bang. ... It's definitely brought porn somewhere, but I don't know where it is headed from there."
Mitchell Spinelli, interviewed while filming Give me Gape, adds: "People want more. They want to know how many dicks you can shove up an ass. It's like 'Fear Factor meets Jackass.' Make it more hard, make it more nasty, make it more relentless."
Jensen clearly decided in writing his book that the often overwhelming reality of the behavior and values of the porn industry must be experienced by the reader, at least in written form, to understand what the issues are. Thus, in the book, he describes porn scenes, quotes dialogue in the porn films, and includes interviews with porn actors to help capture what they are thinking. Some of this is a little hard to take. Here is one example:
Jessica Darlin tells the camera she has performed in 200 films, and she is submissive. "I like guys to just take over and fuck me and have a good time with me. I'm just here for pleasure." The man who enters the room grabs her hair and tells her to beg the other man. She crawls over on her hands and knees, and he spanks her hard. When he grabs her by the throat, she seems surprised. During oral sex, he says, "Choke on that dick." She gags. He grabs her head and slaps her face then forces his penis in her mouth quickly. She gags again.The other man duplicates the action, calling her a "little bitch." Jessica is drooling and gagging; she looks as if she might pass out. The men slap her breasts, then grab her by the hair and pull her up. Later in the scene, "One man enters her anally from the rear as she is pushed up against the couch. The other man enters her anally while his partner puts his foot on her head. Finally one grabs her hair and asks here what she wants. 'I want your cum in my mouth,' she says. 'Give me all that cum. I want to taste it.'"
Jensen writes, "In researching the porn industry, one of the most difficult parts is writing about the women who perform. Men see women in porn films as objects of desire (to be fucked) or ridicule (to be made fun of.) When porn performers speak in public, they typically repeat a script that emphasizes that they have freely chosen this career because of their love of sex and lack of inhibition." Nina Hartley is one former porn star who frames her experience in the porn industry as empowering -- a feminist act of a woman taking control of her own life. But Jensen notes that while "we should listen to and respect those voices, we also know from the testimony of women who leave the sex industry that often they are desperate and unhappy in prostitution and pornography but feel the need to validate it as their choice to avoid thinking of themselves as victims."
Robert Jensen -- radical man
So that you understand, Robert Jensen is a true radical. His positions on masculinity, race and pornography are way out of the mainstream. He thinks that concepts of masculinity make men less than human and should be junked. "Men are assumed to be naturally competitive and aggressive, and being a "real man" is therefore marked by the struggle for control, conquest and domination. A man looks at the world, sees what he wants and takes it."
In writing his book, he turns to one of the most vilified feminists, Andrea Dworkin, as his guide. One of Dworkin's books, Intercourse, enraged many readers. "In it, Dworkin argues that in a male supremacist society, sex between men and women constitutes a central part of women's subordination to men. (This argument was quickly and falsely simplified to "all sex is rape" in the public arena, adding fire to Dworkin's already radical persona.)" But Jensen embraces Dworkin for best understanding pornography and notes that "her love for men was so evident."
Like many stubbornly pure radicals who in the end have provoked change, Jensen, by sheer dint of the power of his arguments, forces one to examine the contradictions and the consequences of our acts, assumptions and opinions. And, by the way, Jensen has a different definition for radical, preferring the Latin "root" for its meaning. "Radical solutions are the ones that get to the root of the problem." For Jensen, the question becomes: "How do we explain the fact that most people's stated philosophy and theological systems are rooted in concepts of justice, equality and inherent dignity of all people, yet we allow violence, exploitation and oppression to flourish."
Jensen's book is a serious effort to deconstruct pornography and connect it to the society in which it grows and, in some ways, dominates. He addresses in detail the arguments that justify porn and the research that may connect porn to violence. His narrative, interwoven in the book, is about a lonely journey to shed the straight jacket of masculinity, and the pain and lack of acceptance that goes with the territory as he relentlessly pushes his ideas into the public domain.
In the end, the book grapples with a fundamental question. "If pornography is increasingly cruel and degrading, why is it increasingly commonplace instead of more marginalized? In a society that purports to be civilized, wouldn't we expect most people to reject sexual material that becomes ever more dismissive of the humanity of women? How do we explain ... increasingly more intense ways to humiliate women sexually and the rising popularity of the films that present those activities?" Jensen concludes: "... this paradox can be resolved by recognizing that one of the assumptions is wrong. Here it is the assumption that the U.S. society routinely rejects cruelty and degradation. In fact the U.S. is a nation that has no serious objection to cruelty and degradation."
Robert Jensen is on a quest. And he has taken a major step forward in his journey in producing a book that the reader can't run away from or casually dismiss. It is filled with facts, data, intelligent observation and analysis, as well as examples of the raw product of an industry gone gonzo. I know this may sound like a cliche, but I guarantee that after reading this book, almost no one will think about pornography in the same way again.
**********
Excerpt
This essay is excerpted from Robert Jensen's new book, Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity, published by South End Press. Jensen also has helped produce a slide show in PowerPoint with a script about the feminist critique of pornography. For information on how to get a copy, email stoppornculture.
After an intense three hours, the workshop on pornography I have been leading is winding down. The 40 women all work at a center that serves battered women and rape survivors. These are the women on the front lines, the ones who answer the 24-hour hotline and work one-on-one with victims. They counsel women who have just been raped, help women who have been beaten, and nurture children who have been abused. These women have heard and seen it all. No matter how brutal a story might be, they have experienced or heard one even more brutal; there is no way to one-up them on stories of men's violence. But after three hours of information, analysis, and discussion of the commercial heterosexual pornography industry, many of these women are drained. Sadness hangs over the room.
Near the end of the session, one woman who had been quiet starts to speak. Throughout the workshop she had held herself in tightly, her arms wrapped around herself. She talks for some time, and then apologizes for rambling. There is no need to apologize; she is articulating what many feel. She talks about her own life, about what she has learned in the session and about how it has made her feel, about her anger and sadness.
Finally, she says: "This hurts. It just hurts so much."
Everyone is quiet as the words sink in. Slowly the conversation restarts, and the women talk more about how they feel, how they will use the information, what it will mean to their work and in their lives. The session ends, but her words hang in the air.
It hurts.
It hurts to know that no matter who you are as a woman you can be reduced to a thing to be penetrated, and that men will buy movies about that, and that in many of those movies your humiliation will be the central theme. It hurts to know that so much of the pornography that men are buying fuses sexual desire with cruelty.
It hurts women, and men like it, and it hurts just to know that.
Even these women, who have found ways to cope with the injuries from male violence in other places, struggle with that pornographic reality. It is one thing to deal with acts, even extremely violent acts. It is another to know the thoughts, ideas, and fantasies that lie behind those acts.
People routinely assume that pornography is such a difficult and divisive issue because it's about sex. In fact, this culture struggles unsuccessfully with pornography because it is about men's cruelty to women, and the pleasure men sometimes take in that cruelty. And that is much more difficult for people -- men and women -- to face.
Why it hurts
This doesn't mean that all men take sexual pleasure in cruelty. It doesn't mean that all women reject pornography. There is great individual variation in the human species, but there also are patterns in any society. And when those patterns tell us things about ourselves and the world in which we live that are difficult, we often want to look away.
Mirrors can be dangerous, and pornography is a mirror.
Pornography as a mirror shows us how men see women. Not all men, of course -- but the ways in which many men who accept the conventional conception of masculinity see women. It is unsettling to look into that mirror.
A story about that: I am out with two heterosexual women friends. Both are feminists in their 30s, and both are successful in their careers. Both are smart and strong, and both have had trouble finding male partners who aren't scared by their intelligence and strength. We are talking about men and women, about relationships. As is often the case, I am told that I am too hard on men. The implication is that after so many years of working in the radical feminist critique of the sex industry and sexual violence, I have become jaded, too mired in the dark side of male sexuality. I contend that I am simply trying to be honest. We go back and forth, in a friendly discussion.
Finally, I tell my friends that I can settle this with a description of one website. I say to them: "If you want me to, I will tell you about this site. I won't tell you if you don't want to hear this. But if you want me to continue, don't blame me." They look at each other; they hesitate. They ask me to explain.
Some months before that someone had forwarded to me an email about a pornography site that the person thought I should take a look at -- slutbus.com. It's a website to sell videos of the slutbus. Here's the slutbus concept:
A few men who appear to be in their 20s drive around in a minivan with a video camera. They ask women if they want a ride. Once in the van, the women are asked if they would be willing to have sex on camera for money. The women do. When the sex is over, the women get out of the van and one of the men hands the women a wad of bills as payment. Just as she reaches for the money, the van drives off, leaving her on the side of the road looking foolish. There are trailers for 10 videos on the website. All appear to use the same "plot" structure.
In the United States there are men who buy videos with that simple message: Women are for sex. Women can be bought for sex. But in the end, women are not even worth paying for sex. They don't even deserve to be bought. They just deserve to be fucked, and left on the side of the road, with post-adolescent boys laughing as they drive away -- while men at home watch, become erect, masturbate, obtain sexual pleasure, and ejaculate, and then turn off the DVD player and go about their lives. There are other companies that produce similar videos. There's bangbus.com, which leaves women by the side of the road after sex in the bangbus. And on it goes.
I look at my friends and tell them: "You realize what I just described is relatively tame. There are things far more brutal and humiliating than that, you know."
We sit quietly, until one of them says, "That wasn't fair."
I know that it wasn't fair. What I had told them was true, and they had asked me to tell them. But it wasn't fair to push it. If I were them, if I were a woman, I wouldn't want to know that. Life is difficult enough without knowing things like that, without having to face that one lives in a society in which no matter who you are -- as an individual, as a person with hopes and dreams, with strengths and weaknesses -- you are something to be fucked and laughed at and left on the side of the road by men. Because you are a woman.
"I'm sorry," I said. "But you asked."
In a society in which so many men are watching so much pornography, this is why we can't bear to see it for what it is: Pornography forces women to face up to how men see them. And pornography forces men to face up to what we have become. The result is that no one wants to talk about what is in the mirror. Although few admit it, lots of people are afraid of pornography. The liberal/libertarian supporters who celebrate pornography are afraid to look honestly at what it says about our culture. The conservative opponents are afraid that pornography undermines their attempts to keep sex boxed into narrow categories.
Feminist critics are afraid, too -- but for different reasons. Feminists are afraid because of what they see in the mirror, because of what pornography tells us about the world in which we live. That fear is justified. It's a sensible fear that leads many to want to change the culture.
Pornography has become normalized, mainstreamed. The values that drive the slutbus also drive the larger culture. As a New York Times story put it, "Pornography isn't just for dirty old men anymore." Well, it never really was just for dirty men, or old men, or dirty old men. But now that fact is out in the open. That same story quotes a magazine writer, who also has written a pornography script: "People just take porn in stride these days. There's nothing dangerous about sex anymore." The editorial director of Playboy, who says that his company has "an emphasis on party," tells potential advertisers: "We're in the mainstream."
There never was anything dangerous about sex, of course. The danger isn't in sex, but in a particular conception of sex in patriarchy. And the way sex is done in pornography is becoming more and more cruel and degrading, at the same time that pornography is becoming more normalized than ever. That's the paradox.
The paradox of pornography
First, imagine what we could call the cruelty line -- the measure of the level of overt cruelty toward, and degradation of, women in contemporary mass-marketed pornography. That line is heading up, sharply.
Second, imagine the normalization line -- the measure of the acceptance of pornography in the mainstream of contemporary culture. That line also is on the way up, equally sharply.
If pornography is increasingly cruel and degrading, why is it increasingly commonplace instead of more marginalized? In a society that purports to be civilized, wouldn't we expect most people to reject sexual material that becomes evermore dismissive of the humanity of women? How do we explain the simultaneous appearance of more, and increasingly more intense, ways to humiliate women sexually and the rising popularity of the films that present those activities?
As is often the case, this paradox can be resolved by recognizing that one of the assumptions is wrong. Here, it's the assumption that U.S. society routinely rejects cruelty and degradation. In fact, the United States is a nation that has no serious objection to cruelty and degradation. Think of the way we accept the use of brutal weapons in war that kill civilians, or the way we accept the death penalty, or the way we accept crushing economic inequality. There is no paradox in the steady mainstreaming of an intensely cruel pornography. This is a culture with a well-developed legal regime that generally protects individuals' rights and freedoms, and yet it also is a strikingly cruel culture in the way it accepts brutality and inequality.
The pornographers are not a deviation from the norm. Their presence in the mainstream shouldn't be surprising, because they represent mainstream values: The logic of domination and subordination that is central to patriarchy, hyper-patriotic nationalism, white supremacy, and a predatory corporate capitalism.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: chomsky on Sep 22, 2007 12:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
- When you see the thumbnail of a movie of a crying or gagged woman "raped" by several men, how can you tell if it is fiction and not a real rape with a real victim? You can't.
- Anyway, why would someone want to see such sick movies? What is so fun about seeing someone cry/suffer?
- Why is kiddie porn (often very extreme with rapes) in japanese manga (cartoons) tolerated so easily? The only positive thing is that it seems not to influence them in reality.
- Where is the fun in todays movies? Where are my damn "old-style" erotic/porn movies; I can only find "bunny-style" "butcher-style" scenes. Even women directors these days film these meat-festivals that have no fun/sensuality. It's like watching donkey sex for god sake!!!!
So, as we have junk-food, we have junk porn... Too bad.
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» RE: Bothering...
Posted by: Cruella
» RE: Bothering...
Posted by: biginJapan
» RE: Bothering...
Posted by: greenman
» RE: Bothering...
Posted by: Wessex
» The frame within this article disrespects a womans right to her own interpretation
Posted by: psychochurch
» RE: disrespecting a woman's right to her own interpretation
Posted by: taryn
» RE: disrespecting a woman's right to her own interpretation
Posted by: psychochurch
» RE: disrespecting a woman's right to her own interpretation
Posted by: phatkhat
» RE: phatkhat, right to the point.
Posted by: taryn
» RE: disrespecting a woman's right to her own interpretation
Posted by: psychochurch
» RE: disrespecting...Please ditch me by the side of the road with 10 million bucks!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: disrespecting a woman's right to her own interpretation
Posted by: taryn
» RE: disrespecting a woman's right to her own interpretation
Posted by: psychochurch
» You're right
Posted by: kepstein7777
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 22, 2007 12:44 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The key word being potentially. The author doesn't provide any information about just how many men (1) purchase and watch porn, (2) how frequently, or (3) purchase and watch the more extreme forms.
"It hurts to know that no matter who you are as a woman you can be reduced to a thing to be penetrated, and that men will buy movies about that, and that in many of those movies your humiliation will be the central theme. It hurts to know that so much of the pornography that men are buying fuses sexual desire with cruelty.
It hurts women, and men like it, and it hurts just to know that."
A huge generalization. "Men buy movies like that." "Men like it." Again no data indicating just how many do.
Another question I'd have is concerning the BDSM industry, which has plenty of female participants. Maybe they're consumers of this porn too?
And what does this have to do with masculinity? If anything, an increasing interest in extreme porn would indicate that increasingly some men are no longer being raised in an environment that is healthy for them and their needs. A perversion of normal, healthy masculinity, not a representation of it.
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» RE: esearch needed here
Posted by: frosty86
» 10 billion dollars a year, according to another post, is what the porn industry makes
Posted by: Beck
» RE: 10 billion dollars a year, according to another post, is what the porn industry makes
Posted by: maddy
» RE: 10 billion dollars a year, according to another post, is what the porn industry makes
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: 10 billion dollars a year, according to another post, is what the porn industry makes
Posted by: ooki
» RE: 10 billion dollars a year, according to another post, is what the porn industry makes
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: 10 billion dollars a year, according to another post, is what the porn industry makes
Posted by: xtymcg
» RE: female porn
Posted by: fiddler83
» RE: sarcasm over romance novels
Posted by: taryn
» RE: sarcasm over romance novels
Posted by: fiddler83
» RE: sarcasm over romance novels
Posted by: taryn
» RE: romance is porn for women
Posted by: taryn
» RE: romance is porn for women...I read "The Flame and the Flower"
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: biginJapan on Sep 22, 2007 12:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: just blame porn
Posted by: richholland
» RE: just blame porn
Posted by: morticia
» RE: just blame porn - FYI - The Puritans were English
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: just blame porn - FYI - The Puritans were English
Posted by: morticia
» Nihon
Posted by: EKSwitaj
» RE: Nihon
Posted by: biginJapan
» RE: just blame porn
Posted by: logansafi
» RE: just blame porn
Posted by: flapdoodle
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Posted by: yellow on Sep 22, 2007 12:55 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Capitalism has reached a phase when everything is commodified. Profit is all. Society is increasingly being run over by the onslaught of capital. This is the root of all current oppression.
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» No, it's not
Posted by: oobi
» As I said. It's about capitalism.
Posted by: yellow
» Actually it is about capitalism, but not in the way your thinking...
Posted by: psychochurch
» You also forgot to mention the commodification aspect. People become objects and dehumanized.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: No, it's not
Posted by: screwjack2000
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Posted by: asilsfable on Sep 22, 2007 1:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's worse than the article illustrates. While I was there, porn seemed to go through a 'dog bowl' phase; it was de rigeur to have woman drink/eat out of dog/cat bowls while they were penetrated from all sides. Producers would talk about 'getting girls before they get used up' and they were ALWAYS on the lookout for new talent. The editor would tell me about what he would see in the outtakes while he was cutting the movies together--really disturbing.
Everyday there was like a surreal sitcom.
Interesting thing--all of the men who worked there could not watch anymore. Instead of arousing them, it disgusted them. I wanted to see what an actual set was like but my workmates were adamant about me not going. They insisted that it was 'gross' and that most of them couldn't tolerate it.
I've spoken with other men who've worked in the industry, even friends who had boyfriends who worked in adult bookstores. They said that sex got 'weird'; it lost its subtlety and became desireless and route. Most of the porn stars I've met seem either asexual or attracted to the sex they are not fucking on camera.
How far can you go when you reach for extremes? The inner world is vast and expansive yet so unexplored.
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» RE: I worked for a place in the San Fernando Valley
Posted by: oekosjoe
» war is porn. this stuff is just anesthesia
Posted by: oobi
» You poor thing!
Posted by: logansafi
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Posted by: parmenicleitus on Sep 22, 2007 1:35 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't wait for the apologetics for pointing out this garble.
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» Seriously...
Posted by: kepstein7777
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Posted by: frantaylor on Sep 22, 2007 2:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: smells fishy to me
Posted by: quitecontrary
» Circling the wagons?
Posted by: supercrisp
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Posted by: richholland on Sep 22, 2007 2:25 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So he needs porno to get even.
There is also women friendly porno.
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» Interesting theory
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: White men, the other white meat.
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: White men, the other white meat.
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: ahmlco on Sep 22, 2007 2:48 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As such, I also think there's a bit of self-fulfillment going on here, in that one tends to find what one is looking for. Look for "harder" films, and you'll find them. Explore the cross-links between those sites, and pretty soon you'd think that those films are all that there is.
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Posted by: ahmlco on Sep 22, 2007 3:25 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is there a real problem? Or is this like the controversy regarding violence in video games? Games that are supposed to desensitize our youth and predispose them to violence... when in fact violent crime rates have been declining pretty much year-over-year ever since the video game was invented.
Is there a problem? Do these films mirror reality? Or are they as escapist as the exploits of Bruce Willis in the last Die Hard movie? I saw the latest version of Halloween too. Does that mean that I'm now predisposed to using a kitchen knife in an inappropriate fashion?
Should the questions the author is asking be asked? Sure. But we also need to keep in mind just who may be asking the questions, and what they have to gain in the process. Remember, the author is not a sociologist, or a psychiatrist, but a professor of Journalism. He's not an expert in the field of study.
This isn't a personal attack, but a fact we have to face and debate every time someone tells us about a "problem" about which "something must be done".
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» re: videogames and violence
Posted by: oobi
» Video games and violent crime rate myths.
Posted by: ahmlco
» neither are sociologists or psychiatrists...
Posted by: psychochurch
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Posted by: Suzon on Sep 22, 2007 3:51 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In living memory (just!), there were photographs but not films, radio but not television, books and magazines but not DVDs, telephones but not affordable filming equipment.
Many people don't think very deeply. If porn is "normal" then it must be no big deal.
We should be moving away from simply educating people for careers and begin educating them to live meaningful lives.
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» RE: monkey see, monkey do?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: monkey see, monkey do?
Posted by: CandianBear
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on Sep 22, 2007 3:52 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having said that, I myself once saw a movie that still disturbs me 30 years later. This movie was set in the west and in a rape scene, one of the men repeatedly punched a barely resisting woman repeatedly in the face with full force. You will never convince me it was fake and I am still horrified by it.
The author also brings up a valid point as far as general mistreatment of the actresses is concerned. Rather than banning the porn however (which I personally find disgusting) I believe that there is plenty that can be done in terms of unionizing the actresses and banning acts that are unsafe working practices.
I like lots of nekkid girls. I find most of what is discribed here unerotic and gross - but I suspect the motive here is more about banning the viewing of what the author (and myself) find distasteful than protecting the actresses.
I am all in favor of protecting the actresses. I firmly believe there are things we can and should do in that regard and would support initiatives that actually had that as their actual aim.
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» RE: Pornography causes masturbation. OMG!!!
Posted by: Maya
» RE: Pornography causes masturbation. OMG!!!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Dworkin
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» RE: Dworkin
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Dworkin
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: Pornography causes masturbation. OMG!!!
Posted by: quitecontrary
» RE: Pornography causes masturbation. OMG!!!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Like Wal*Mart aka the USA?
Posted by: Cathyc
» "...light on facts - long on propaganda"=not to be taken seriously
Posted by: Sojourner
» Fetishtic America = and Sexual Repression
Posted by: Cathyc
» Clearly not so in Israel, India and Japan that are also "religious cultures."
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Clearly not so in Israel, India and Japan that are also "religious cultures."
Posted by: jallen04
» RE: PORN ACTORS NEED A UNION - let porn stars join SAG and AFTRA!!!!
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Urgelt on Sep 22, 2007 3:56 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's extremely disheartening. Not just the cruelty towards women - though that is certainly disheartening. But the other manifestations of cruelty, too, indifference to suffering, inequities, death, where nationalism and predatory capitalism trumps humanity and morality.
But the conclusion that the answer is censorship is flawed. It's much more than a slippery slope we are talking about when we speak of censorship. It's a slippery slope aimed at totalitarianism.
In a totalitarian America, women will not fare better than they fare today. Instead, a ruling elite will exercise absolute, unconstrained power over everyone else. Excesses of brutality and cruelty will be given free reign to those who serve the regime.
Censorship is the key that unlocks that door.
Notice that I am not arguing on abstract 1st Amendment grounds. I am arguing that censorship delivers to government the power to shape what information can be heard. That power is coveted by wealthy elites; unable to obtain it through government alone, they have sought to obtain it by buying media corporations and shaping the messages they carry, which is bad enough. By advocating government censorship of morally repugnant messages, we will be playing right into their power-grubbing hands.
The author has underscored a disturbing fact about the nature of men in America and the women with whom they have relationships. Hiding it with censorship is not an answer. The answer, if there is one, lies in social engineering: attempts to restructure the society in which we live. But there are, there must be, firm limits on what government can be allowed to do. Otherwise the solutions will impose far worse damage upon our society than the problems they seek to solve.
Education is fair game; it could do a lot to dissuade willing participation by women in degrading pornography. So, too, are attempts to get the pornography industry to reign in its own excesses. But I will not willingly concede to the government the power to censor pornography, or any other protected speech. That is a road I do not want to travel.
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» MUCH more violent, disturbing porn in Europe and Asia. Yet, less violent society? Bestiality,
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: MUCH more violent, disturbing porn in Europe and Asia. Yet, less violent society? Bestiality,
Posted by: richholland
» RE: MUCH more violent, disturbing porn in Europe and Asia. Yet, less violent society? Bestiality,
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: MUCH more violent, disturbing porn in Europe and Asia. Yet, less violent society? Bestiality,
Posted by: Joe
» RE: Censorship
Posted by: Just Curious
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kgs1947 on Sep 22, 2007 4:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fantasies can be used as a healthy outlet of unmet needs and rage/anger is also a way to focus on unmet needs. The perpetuate need to conform to feel accepted is tantamount to emotional rape that leads to physical degradation.
This issue is not only one of using/abusing women as objects, but is indicative of the rise of violence against men who have sex with men...."gay bashing" in schools, in homes, in churches, in government, in corporations. It's directly related to violence against women because "queers" are seen as just like women, "less than men". What it means to be masculine is not being feminine in any way!
I want to remind mothers of how they teach their sons to behave, what values they manifest in their lives, what beliefs they hold around what it means to be a "man". The men's movement, the feminist movement, the gay revolution have failed miserably because they have not focused on the underlying cultural commitment to "men are superior" and if you want to be a man, then you must conform to this stereotype. Otherwise, you will not make it in life.
The patriarchal order will continue to bash and demean and degrade women and other men ("sisses", "wimps", "fags") until men and women unite in changing the cultural belief system and tolerance for violence to survive in a "man eat man" world and redefine what it means to be "a man."
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Posted by: dannrusso on Sep 22, 2007 4:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
woman-on-woman porn with no other person in the room...no guy to beat them, F%^& them, whatever them, just two women exploring the beauty of their bodies.
anything else is just smut and I dont care for smut. OK, I'm being mostly faceitious - but I do think that censorship in general is a terrible practice so I cannot allow myself to condemn something that was entered into willingly on both sides, no matter how foul I find it....
:-) well, that is my opinion anyway
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» RE: porn is good
Posted by: Just Curious
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PJT on Sep 22, 2007 4:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you check out one of the vintage porn photo sites you will see that while "propriety" may have acted as a restraint on the activities of the prostitutes and their partners in the old pictures, you can see clearly enough around the edges that not much was different 100 years ago. The internet and access to equipment and technology has put the tools to represent the sexual exploitation of women into the hands of every moron on the street. What makes the author think anything has changed?
Violence toward women (and the weak) is in the grain of society. I don't believe that the average human is more civilized today than the average citizen of Rome. We may not hold spectacles in arenas where people are impaled on sticks and eaten still alive by wild animals, but if we did, there would be sell-out audiences at $200 a ticket. In 15 years, I predict you WILL be able to witness any degraded, violent or sadistic spectacle you care to imagine thanks to the power of computing to create life-like simulacra of real events. As society skates toward the edge of oblivion, the psychotics and mal-adjusted will lead the way, as always.
The solution is tough. Look at the society with the MOST freedom and at the same time the LEAST violence and sadism and what do they have going for them? Is it Finland? Sweden? Some place like that? They have a commitment (albeit recent) toward liberal tolerance, a healthy respect for the individual, an egalitarian society that discourages excess of either poverty or wealth, respect for education and a common sense appreciation of human yearnings and suffering. It wasn't like this in Finland and Sweden 100 years ago, but it is now. It can be done, but it takes work. Is there any hope for us? I don't think so. P J Tramdack
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» RE: It's normal: welcome to humankind
Posted by: jeff2045
» RE: I think the utopia that you are looking for is Amsterdam...
Posted by: jimidee
» Oddly the paradise you mention, Sweden, just recently banned child porn and still allows
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» women in antiquity
Posted by: oobi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Beagle17 on Sep 22, 2007 4:55 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The law has been challenged on grounds of violating the right to free speech, but the supreme court has upheld the law (more than once, I believe) as a valid infringement of free speech, pointing out the old adage that you can't shout "Fire!" in a movie theatre as one reason to not assume that free speech rights are absolute.
What puzzles me, and not just from reading this article either, is why our legal system, typically so quick to use the hate literature law to slap down anti-semetism, fails to use the same law against mysoginist publications. If I were to produce a magazine that contained no sexual picture, but proceded to argue that women were so unworthy of respect that they should be humiliated sexually whenever possible and this humiliation broadcast as widely as possible, I suspect the hate literature law would be used to stop me and punish me. I doubt anyone would object.
So it is a problem of language. When certain "porn" gives the same message, but without using words, a lot of people seem to get confused as to whether it is then somehow art.
I think it would be quite simple to define certain limits on pornography using the concepts of mysogyny and hate literature as guidelines. Oh, there might be some cases where the courts will have to get busy and define things more clearly as the laws get challenged, but that's what our legal system is for.
I think Bangbus etc. would fail the mysogyny test, even as a lot of kinky Japanese stuff would pass it. But it wouldn't be my opinion that matters; some sort of consensus would emerge eventually.
But I have to agree with the author and filmmaker that doing nothing is a very poor approach.
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» Myth: Porn is mysoginist.
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Myth: Porn is mysoginist.
Posted by: Beagle17
» RE: Myth: Porn is mysoginist.
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Myth: Porn is mysoginist.
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Myth: Porn is mysoginist.
Posted by: Beagle17
» RE: Myth: Porn is mysoginist.
Posted by: logansafi
» Hate speech laws
Posted by: geoff_canuck
» RE: Myth: Porn is mysoginist.
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: You don't watch much porn, do ya'?
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: JUST SAY NO TO THE NANNY STATE
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: JUST SAY NO TO THE NANNY STATE
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jeff2045 on Sep 22, 2007 5:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Conservative Christians might run a close second, but the Taliban are the most repressive people I know of. They don't tolerate porn of any kind, violent or otherwise. They don't tolerate the sight of a woman's face or ankles in public. But they are also the most violent and degrading culture toward women I know of, too.
The sight of women is not the source of lust. The portrayal of violence is NOT the source of violence. This article and it's source are far closer to that than violent pornography, which is but a symptom. Violent pornography sheds light on the fact that we have a problem, and prevents repression of that little fact. Shove it under the rug, or the Birkah, or into the hands of the executioner, and the problem is hidden along with it. Burying the murderer does not bring an end to murder.
The underlying problems are much more complex. Their solutions are far more complex and confounding than protesting violent pornography, reducing it, or bringing an end to it. I ask anyone who believes otherwise to: 1) remove head from butt, 2) open eyes, 3) seek REAL ways to help women and the many other repressed minorities upon whom violence is routinely wrought, and 4) stop wasting your time and mine.
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» Hey, don't confuse them with the facts
Posted by: MartianBachelor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ihugtrees on Sep 22, 2007 5:07 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a masculine liberal thinker I don't see much wrong with porn between consenting adults, or the viewing of that porn. Sure, there's degrading and cruel porn but it's not the mainstream of porn.
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» RE: You don't get it because it doesn't make sense! nm
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: You don't get it ... what is really scary to me
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: nd of Masculinity?
Posted by: frosty86
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jimidee on Sep 22, 2007 5:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author sez:
"But the other, Gonzo, has no pretensions, and is simply the filming of sex acts, which, Jensen writes, while also occurring in features, are "performed in rougher fashion, often with more than one man involved, and more explicitly degrading language which marks women as sluts, whores, cunts, nasty bitches and so on."
It sounds like an fundementalist Southern Baptist preacherman describing a Fiddy-cent hip-hop video. There is nothing new here...and it is soooo tired.
My wife and I am are porn fans...it is a fun part of foreplay...it clears our minds of the daily grind, and on to what is important...fantasy! So, I peruse the catalogues periodically, and I have never seen anything of late that remotely looks like some of the stuff that "changed" the authors mind...the so called "Gonzo" films. I am not saying that they don't exist...I am just saying that like in many other moralistic causes, the author is hyperventilating to make his case. What are his motives? Oh yeah, he is trying to sell us something old a recycled!
It is not like we don't have real problems to deal with that are currently destroying our country and world...why are we dwelling on this trivia? Two words...sensationalism sells. I can't decide which is more smutty, porn or the whole movement trying to destroy it! The whole thing has a Repugnican smell to it to me.
In fact, I see the porn industry evolving into more of a sophisticated art form, where it isn't just the woman opening the door for the well-hung pizza boy and then they take off all their clothes and do it (which the author says he prefers!). The stuff the wife and I buy is more like a traditional movie where the love scenes are much more vivid...and real, BTW. The exponential growth of the industry is definitely going in that direction, according to the sheer number videos being offered. Like in the mainstream DVD's, many offer "Behind the Scenes" footage with interviews of the stars and starlettes, and they sure don't seem like victims to me. They are laughing all the way to the bank, and having the times of their lives doing it.
Beware of the chicken little types who are recycling old fears with hyperbole...a well-worn tactic that is employed by the conservatives and neo-cons. Ask yourself, "Why are we buying into this (again)?"
Let the stoning begin!
jimidang
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» RE: It all sounds SOOOO familiar...
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: anybody can do a content-analysis sample...
Posted by: jimidee
» more rationalizing
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: more rationalizing... I remember in the 70s
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: It all sounds SOOOO familiar...
Posted by: dmaciewski
» RE: Show me one porn video where gang rape is depicted! Just one...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Show me one porn video where gang rape is depicted! Just one...
Posted by: abbadon2007
» RE: It all sounds SOOOO familiar...
Posted by: jeff2045
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lady X on Sep 22, 2007 5:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This, for me was the most lucid line in the article. Bigger than the issue of porn is the terror of sex, desire and male-female power imbalances.
America, historically has been about power hierarchies, slavery and destroying cultures we feel threatened by. There is an underlying violence and rage that
(to me) colors many of our belief systems. We look to religion and morality to keep our Id under control rather than use it for creative puposes and to accelerate vitality.
Instead, since sex cannot be supresssed, since it is the
primal urge to create life- it is expressed in dark sometimes
violent and debasing ways through pornogrpahy, sexual abuse, domestic violence, etc.
Rape is never about sex or desire but power and rage. Here- it feels the 2 are intertwined in weird unconsoius ways
Pornography (IMO) is the dark shadow side of America's fear of sex and life force that religion, politics and "morality" cannot control.
This fear has been handed down culturally and through the
Judeo-Christian religious system and other toxic limiting belief systems. We, as Americans
( as a country/culture) seem to take the most exception to sex of all kinds in a fearful way, except sex regulated by the Church or political "moral" codes- there is always going to be a dark scary energy around sex that wil be mirrored by pornography, domestic violence, rape, s&m ....Take your pick.
Personally, I am far more concerned with the destructive and highly addictive and far reachning power of the international pharmaceutical industry. What about the military -industrial complex?
What about the global weapons manufactruing industries.
These industries kill and destroy the lives of millions of people worldwide. People barely seem to have a reaction
to industries that intend to control , dominate and destroy the lives of sovereign citizens world wide.
This is an excellent and thought provoking article. It is my
belief, that until we get to the deeper spiritual imbalances around sex in this country and really address our terror
of sex and deep emotion- there will always be a porn
industry and sexually related violence
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» RE: Pornography (IMO) is the dark shadow side of America's fear of sex...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Sexually-repressed people are Scared of Sex.
Posted by: Cathyc
» Sexually-repressed people are Scared of Sex.
Posted by: Lady X
» RE: People Are Scared of Sex.
Posted by: ooki
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dmaciewski on Sep 22, 2007 5:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Violence in porn? You don't watch much porn, do you?
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Violence in porn? You don't watch much porn, do you?
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Violence in porn? So what?
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Violence in porn = violence toward women turns men on
Posted by: frosty86
» RE violence toward women turns men on... No - it has to do with the truth
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: violence toward women turns men on... No - it has to do with the truth
Posted by: frosty86
» The fact is that the 'study' has NOT been peer published...
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mizzmoze on Sep 22, 2007 5:43 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do they have music downloads? Well these pear to peer sights also have millons of pages of filth,they can watch delete,change the name to a song,and you would never know!
its amazing,that are complaints about gas going up 10-30 cents reaches the whitehouse,but nobody monitors and puts limits on such mind twisting garbage that belittles woman,and makes then look like pigs,and creates monsters,rapists,abusers,from our kids generations and on! Thanks to all those woman who participate in the nasty acts,they only help to the poison!And of course the filthy minds that depict the acts!.And the men and woman whom perform this garbage! It would be fine,if it was left to natural love making and exploration of two human beings,but all the sick sick stuff today in these films,makes it unbearable to watch!
somebody clean up this world! its a filthy mess!
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» RE: You need to check your mirror...
Posted by: jimidee
» free porn
Posted by: jingles
» RE: free porn...prove it!
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: free porn...prove it!
Posted by: jingles
» The onus is on the one who is making the claim...
Posted by: jimidee
» What are YOU doing about it?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: mizzmoze - FREE ACCESS TO PORN, OR AN EPIDEMIC OF RAPE which do you think is better???
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: mizzmoze ...OR AN EPIDEMIC OF RAPE - I have been horny and deprived many times
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: mizzmoze ...OR AN EPIDEMIC OF RAPE - I have been horny and deprived many times
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: many times... Then show contrary research
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: many times... Then show contrary research
Posted by: frosty86
» Hypocracy
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Hypocracy
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: "Then show contrary research"...don't ask for
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: TonyGottlieb on Sep 22, 2007 5:51 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It is you who is asleep at the wheel...
Posted by: jimidee
» I WAS showing an equal show of logic...
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: jimidee on Sep 22, 2007 5:55 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: jrmart on Sep 22, 2007 5:55 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Worse, however is his placing the cart before the horse. Porn doesn't LEAD societal behavior, it follows it.
There is more degradation of the female in todays music videos and on the big screen than in the porno industry alltogether. And awards are given for it.
If violent porn showing women being degraded and punished is popular, perhaps one should look at the ascendency of the Female in everyday relations. It is the male that is being degraded in real life. He has been deballed. He has been made to feel guilty for just being male. Perhaps THAT is why the violent porn industry is popular. It is the only "safe" way for a man to feel in control.
think about it.
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» RE: Femme Dom and Male Dom porno
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Femme Dom and Male Dom porno
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» RE: Femme Dom and Male Dom porno
Posted by: fiddler83
» RE: Femme Dom and Male Dom porno
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Femme Dom - checked out those sites
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Femme Dom - checked out those sites
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Femme Dom - checked out those sites
Posted by: fiddler83
» RE: Femme Dom - checked out those sites
Posted by: fiddler83
» RE: Femme Dom - checked out those sites
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» RE: Femme Dom - checked out those sites - it is the most basic logical fallacy
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Femme Dom - checked out those sites - it is the most basic logical fallacy
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Femme Dom - checked out those sites - it is the most basic logical fallacy
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Femme Dom and Male Dom porno
Posted by: defiant
» RE: Cart before hores, the shame of masculinity
Posted by: taryn
Comments are closed-
Posted by: JDBishop5 on Sep 22, 2007 5:57 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Though I have not seen it, I'll agree that the new stuff sucks worse.
Most boys are raised and educated, until they enter high school, by women.
What causes them to hate women so much when they become men?
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» "I agree that porn sucks." Hmmm...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: JDBishop5
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» RE: JDBishop5
Posted by: JDBishop5
» RE: JDBishop5
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: JDBishop5
Posted by: Just Curious
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Just Me on Sep 22, 2007 6:02 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nor is porn a substitute for the real thing; rather it is depressing and can only sustain any person (male or female) for a short period of time.
I used to complain that all I ever saw was either man/woman or woman/woman but never saw man/man which only proves that the industry makes what men want to see. So someone found a man/man film and I almost lost my lunch from the week before.
I don't know how anyone can say that the women that star in these films do it of their own free will when there are too many stories of former porn stars who speak about their drug addiction that began while they were filming. Nor can I understand how anyone can say it's between consenting adults when there are often underage girls in these films.
We wonder why disease and even rape (including child rape) is spread so far and wide and why the moral fabric of society is in shreds; need we really wonder when pornography, sex and prostitution are everywhere. You can't find decent clothing for little girls because the styles today are patterned after the "barely dressed" fashions found in such films.
We need to roll the clock back and rediscover morality and accept that women are equal to men and are not property.
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» RE: That is your opinion...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: PORN IS THE ONLY SEXUAL OUTLET FOR MILLIONS OF MEN - do you have an alternative???
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
Comments are closed-
Posted by: morningstar1972 on Sep 22, 2007 6:30 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is very true, thatthe men who watch these films mirror what they are seeing, consciously, or unconsciously.
This is probably what is happening to women in the workforce as well. Thy are paid less. they get passed over for the promotion, they are physically harassed by their male counterparts.
It is so hard to look at. It is so hard to feel anything knowing that it isn't just one person causing you harm, but a whole group of men meant to degrade you, and devalue your existence. Maybe they need to do this to women, because we don't really need them, right? there are plenty of sperm donors out there. I have always told myself what is good for the goose, is good for the gander so I have had to make my own stand. I don't put up with any of this degrading crapola.
Until a man sees himself equal to a woman he will never truly appreciate her, or all she has to offer. a woman puts up with so much!
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» Men who watch porn are better lovers
Posted by: jimidee
» the idea of having a male boss
Posted by: goatini
» RE: You know hundreds of men who are "avid porn hounds" (your term, not mine)...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Men who watch porn are better lovers...Are you serious?
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Men who watch porn are better lovers...Are you serious?
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Come off it
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Come off it
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: I'm gonna start out by admitting I haven't seen a lot of porn in recent years - was a lot more i
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: I'm gonna start out by admitting I haven't seen a lot of porn in recent years - was a lot more i
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Women and Sex - let me explain this one more time
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: Speak for yourself there Greg...
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Cruella on Sep 22, 2007 6:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: depressing to read
Posted by: jeff2045
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Posted by: wleming on Sep 22, 2007 6:34 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
have been ad-washed by a society whose only objective is profit at any cost.
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Posted by: SalB on Sep 22, 2007 6:40 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But those women that do fantasize about subordination don't want that attitude to go outside the bedroom. I can all be a game that ends in the surge of hormones known as an orgasm.
Sexual fantasies are often borne out of our worst fear, eroticized. Women who wouldn't tolerate being called a bitch or slut in public might really get off on it during sex.
To me, the biggest problem with porn is that it assumes that men are the only ones watching or getting enjoyment. Porn, like most media, is filmed from a male perspective and thus rarely shows men's faces or reactions to sex, until orgasm. Female orgasms are rare and the actors almost take special care to avoid cliteral stimulation on camera.
Who we are during sex is not who we are during the rest of our lives. Porn is an extreme meant to arouse. It very well may be getting more extreme too, because we've already seen it, or maybe we're getting tired of old formulas and instead of creativity, directors went for gore.
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» RE: The very best porn has women...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: The very best porn has women...
Posted by: SalB
» you are so easily fooled!
Posted by: deborama
» RE: It is about fantasy...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Lost at the bottom - I never met a woman
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Lost at the bottom - I never met a woman
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Lost at the bottom - I never met a woman
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Lost at the bottom - I never met a woman
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Lost at the bottom - I never met a woman
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Lost at the bottom - I never met a woman
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Lost at the bottom - I never met a woman
Posted by: goldmarx
» Re: I never met a woman - I stand corrected
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: e: I never met a woman - I stand corrected
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: e: I never met a woman - I cannot quote chapter and verse
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Lost at the bottom - I never met a woman
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Lost at the bottom - I never met a woman - Thanks gm
Posted by: UnEasyOne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: TarryFaster on Sep 22, 2007 6:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At some early point in mankind's primal past, men realized that they were the sexually inferior sex. Not only were/are women more adept at partner selection, but their sexual capacity far exceeded/exceeds that of men. To this day, we are still dealing with a multitude of factors relating to the masculine insecurity that has developed from that realization. Territory, slavery, property rights, women's suppression issues, sexual violence and humiliation, misogyny, and even marriage are just a few of the "masculine" attempts to control and thwart the sexual advantage that women have overtly and subconsciously held over men since before the beginning of recorded history.
Only through acceptance via education can we -- both men and women -- relieve ourselves of this imbalance. Education and acceptance cannot exist in a censored environment. Furthermore, our current state of technology doesn't accelerate or antagonize these issues, but rather allows a more complete and unbiased examination -- and thus demystification through experience -- which ultimately leads to a more complete, humane and moral understanding of our communal human condition.
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» RE: Consider the source and not the symptom.
Posted by: Robba29
» RE: Consider the source and not the symptom.
Posted by: jeff2045
» RE: Consider the source and not the symptom.
Posted by: Robba29
» RE: Consider the source and not the symptom. That assertion is unproven and untrue
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Consider the source and not the symptom. That assertion is unproven and untrue
Posted by: Robba29
» RE: Consider the source and not the symptom. That assertion is unproven and untrue
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Consider the source and not the symptom. That assertion is unproven and untrue
Posted by: Robba29
» RE: Survival of Macho memes through selection?
Posted by: taryn
» RE: Survival of Macho memes through selection?
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
Comments are closed-
Posted by: clvngodess on Sep 22, 2007 6:59 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This statement is true of all addictions, at least that's what my therapist is telling me. After a while the effect wears off and the user needs more and more of the substance to get off.
Whether that be more violent porn or younger subjects or more taboos.
Not only that the men who are afflicted with the addiction to this crap (if you're a woman with a porn addicted man in your life, you feel this is crap) eventually start acting out themselves, in abberant sexual ways.
I couldn't bring myself to finish the article. And couldn't bring myself to read through the sick and sad reponses from some of the men responding to the article.
This whole topic is one of such great pain for many wives and significant others. Porn destroys even the most liberal of families. Just like crack, or alcohol or heroin....
It's sad that men can't plug into a relationship but would rather view something on a screen or on paper and jerk off.
What a lonely business.
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» RE: Drugs do not cause the addict...
Posted by: jimidee
» Oh much better, Drugs do not cause the addict...you do.
Posted by: taryn
» RE: Oh much better, Drugs do not cause the addict...you do.
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: Jimidee's whole POINT was wives cause addiction
Posted by: taryn
» RE: MY POINT IS THAT MARRIED GUYS USUALLY USE PORN BECAUSE THEIR WIVES WON'T HAVE SEX WITH THEM
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» your post is a total lie
Posted by: deborama
» RE: your post is a total lie - He was telling the truth - and you are too
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: TRUE.
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Drugs do not cause the addict...
Posted by: psychochurch
» RE: There is some disagreement on this obviously...Reefer Madness is an example.
Posted by: jimidee
» I agree
Posted by: oobi
» RE: It's like heroin or crack
Posted by: MAD
» RE: It's like heroin or crack
Posted by: jeff2045
» Sex and drugs mix. But fetishism and addiction are different critters. Fantasy and/or dependence.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Sex - "Carnal Knowledge" n/t
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: REALTITY CHECK many men have no relatoinship to "plug in" to!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rjw10014 on Sep 22, 2007 7:51 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
porn often represents fantasies -- though sometimes quasi-violent or degrading -- that people actually have.
Hazen's assumption here is that "fantasy" is somehow beyond critical engagement, and that because one's fantasies are, well, fantasies, that they are somehow sacrosanct and exempt from critique. This is a very popular view of how fantasy operates, and how is it mobilized by groups as some form of transgression, or even, as domination by those who seek to monitor fantasies for correct moral behavior.
While this may or may not be true, the point to reflect on is that fantasy is a wholly socially constructed concept. Fantasy, like any other social structure of affect, is formed and shaped by one's relationship with the larger social structure. One's place in society -- his/her economic, social, political "location" and experiences -- forms the basis from which fantasies are constructed. We do not all come out of the womb with the same fantasies, and fantasies have been proven to change over historical time -- it is not difficult to imagine that a man's fantasy in the 15th Century would be markedly different from one today, nor is it difficult to imagine that a woman's fantasy in the US would be markedly different from a woman's in another region of the globe.
While the point is not to play up an endless game of relativism, if we accept that most contemporary pornography images are articulations of fantasy, then we begin to ask serious political questions. If, as Hazen contends, many men have dark and violent fantasies, what does that mean, even if they are never acted out in "real" life? What structures and experiences have shaped these fantasies -- and, importantly, what does this mean when such fantasies and pornography coalesce?
Once we accept that "fantasy" is part of the social fabric, firmly within the dominant social structures of contemporary society and a wholly manufactured precept, we can begin to reflect on how our own individual fantasies have been shaped, limited and constrained --- and through that, may very well wind up to find that fantasy can be a moment of transgression. But to continue to cordon off fantasy as irreducible and beyond critique naively allows for such fantasy to be manipulated and mobilized towards narrow ends, similarly to how concepts of "freedom" and "democracy" are perverted by powerful groups.
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» RE: Fantasies
Posted by: Teresa
» RE: Fantasies...Here come the thought police!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: argyle on Sep 22, 2007 8:11 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» awww...
Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: mick3
Posted by: fiddler83
» RE: STRAIGHT MEN DON'T WATCH MAN ON MAN PORN BECAUSE WE'RE NOT GAY!!!
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
Comments are closed-
Posted by: surfreality on Sep 22, 2007 8:16 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: iI enjoy erotica,
Posted by: realmuzik
» RE: EROTICA IS WACK
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Sep 22, 2007 9:00 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When watching a video I want to see the girl enjoying herself and orgasm, not the gagging, or the jackhammering where the girl looks back and the audio cuts out cause they edit out her telling the guy to slow down cause he is hurting her.
And as I said in the beginning, I probably watch more porn than anyone else who has commented here.
I do find it hard to believe people actually enjoy that stuff but then again I find it hard to believe that people enjoy jackass, or viva la bam, or all the abuse that the obese uncle takes in that show.
I think people are different, a certain segment of society seems to enjoy doing stupid things, taking it up a notch, and abusing others. I don't get it.
I think it comes down to a person's character which is pretty solidified in their formative childhood years.
I think if abuse is statistically rising then its probably due to more and more children not getting good parenting and learning to care about their fellow man rather than see them degraded.
This shouldn't surprise us that much as most families need to have both parents working in order to make ends meet, something that was not the case a generation ago.
If the right and left are truly pro-family they would work to fix the economy so that we can go back to having 1 parent work and 1 stay at home or both parents work but only half days.
I don't think there should be censorship in porn
The Nanny government is a terrible idea that constantly gets resurrected by both sides of the isle when people do things they do not approve of.
The Nanny government is why prostitution between 2 or more consenting adults is illegal. The Nanny government is why gays can't marry. The Nanny government is why more than 2 people can't marry. They Nanny government is why certain drugs are illegal.
The Nanny government, a government which presumes to tell each individual what they can and cannot do with their own body, is an anathema to freedom. We can find alternatives.
Why not regulate the industry more, require every film to obtain an ID number, require the actress to bring a friend, supporter, someone that can use a beeper type device to log her complaints during the making of the video if the guy is too rough or does things she does not want. Allow it to log, wirelessly to a central database in realtime any unwanted abuse that takes place and the actor(s) that committed it.
Women would choose to work with actors who had a clean record rather than ones who committed abuse.
This is by no means a perfect idea but I came up with it while typing this comment, the point is we as a community can come up with ways to empower women and ensure they are not abused, ways that would in fact stop the abuse while it is happening rather than censor films after they are made.
Censorship is a horrible idea, once we as a community can decide what the individual is allowed to do with themself there is no stopping the tyranny of the majority.
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» RE: I Probably Watch More Porn Than Anyone Here, Here is My Take On Things
Posted by: rjw10014
» RE: I Probably Watch More Porn Than Anyone Here, Here is My Take On Things
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I Probably Watch More Porn Than Anyone Here, Here is My Take On Things
Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: I Probably Watch More Porn Than Anyone Here, Here is My Take On Things
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» Control
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I Probably Watch More Porn Than Anyone Here, Here is My Take On Things
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» Your last sentence says it like it is
Posted by: thelostsailor
» RE: I Probably Watch More Porn Than Anyone Here, Here is My Take On Things
Posted by: Landbaron
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jadedinCali on Sep 22, 2007 9:03 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In prisons, anyone who allows himself to be dominated becomes a "bitch." If one is young and attractive, one can "buy" protection by becoming the sexual property of a dominant prisoner. The examples can go on...
From an epidemiological perspective, the only way to eliminate the disease in the population is to eliminate the reservoir of pathogens.
From Hazen's review, Jensen's exploration of pornography using Dworkin's analytic framework is long overdue. The social commentary perspective serves well the objective of raising consciousness, but to change masculinity means understanding dominance as a pathology and using analytic tools that understand pathology to locate its reservoir and and distribution vectors. I wonder who will take that one on?
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» RE: The Role of Prisons in the Epidemiology of Masculinity and Dominance
Posted by: Blue Heron
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Posted by: david_m_silverman on Sep 22, 2007 9:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. He can cite all the acts of degradation he wants; and either they are real, which I doubt, or they are mere performances, but he ignores a monumentally major effect porn has on society. Huge numbers of men use porn as an ALTERNATIVE to rape & other forms of sexual violence. How many women were spared from violence and forced sex because men first vent with the fantasy of porn? Jensen either doesn't know or doesn't care because it wouldn't further his agenda.
2. I have downloaded about one thousand porn video clips from the internet over the past year, and NOT A SINGLE ONE has had any more violence than a mild fanny slap. I never even saw the title of a video that hinted at violence. I should add that I only download from P2P sites and never from a fee-based site.
3. As an aside, I did download two clips wherein men had sex with a child about 12-14 years old. They disgusted and angered me so much that, had I the opportunity, I would have shot any of the men involved on the spot. I deleted them as soon as I realized what they were. They were both from Russia; and, as a result, I no longer download anything that has a high level domain "ru."
As is true most of the time, writers cherry-pick "facts" to suit their own agendas and are very far from objective.
As always, I use my real name and real e-mail address and I welcome all comments.
Dave Silverman
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» RE: Jensen is just wrong
Posted by: EKSwitaj
» RE: Jensen is just wrong
Posted by: david_m_silverman
» RE: Jensen is just wrong
Posted by: anechoic
» RE: Dave Silverman is just RIGHT
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: Dave Silverman is right, Jensen is just wrong
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Robba29 on Sep 22, 2007 9:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think he answers his own questions in the excerpt. He states that the conservative side (from the 17th century on, in whatever form) has tried to keep sexuality in a box. True, and that box was built on patriarchal norms of subordinating women. If you can keep women, and the fear of sex (with others that is), in that box (the home), then control mechanisms are relatively easy. However, things have changed, as women entered the public sphere and notions of sex and sexuality challenged prevailing norms, the box shifted. But, we didn't get rid of it. The box built on patriarchy is still very much a part of us. Ideas of masculinity and feminity are built on it. We still try to adhere to old notions of what it is to be male (dominant) and female (subservient). But, how do you show that when the box is no longer the home? You can't keep the other half locked away--so make that distinction public, just as women entered the public sphere, so must their subordinate status. Porn enters the fray. Like the author, I'm not against porn. I wholeheartedly agree, though, that it is a reflection of society--as all "art" forms are. As traditional conceptions of masculinity are being challenged they must find ever more "creative" ways to reassert themselves. This is, I believe, where today's extreme porn is coming from. Its a reactionary form to those challenges. How do (traditional) men assert themselves in a public arena that is increasingly challenging their "authority?" Take it back to the bedroom, if you will. It doesn't get more raw or basic than that. And that does speak volumes about why patriarchy and masculinity MUST be challenged, rendered, and transformed. It is anathema to freedom, liberty, and justice--it is the justification of our wars (the manly west and feminized orientalist east). Time to realize this and make change.
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» RE: TRUE, when found, patriarchy must be challenged, rendered and transformed, but...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: TRUE, when found, patriarchy must be challenged, rendered and transformed, but...
Posted by: Robba29
» RE: TRUE, when found, patriarchy must be challenged, rendered and transformed, but...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: TRUE, when found, patriarchy must be challenged, rendered and transformed, but...
Posted by: Robba29
» RE: DEFENDING MY MASCULINITY FROM YOUR CHALLENGE
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: DEFENDING MY MASCULINITY FROM YOUR CHALLENGE
Posted by: Robba29
» RE: DEFENDING MY MASCULINITY AND OUR DEMOCRACY
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: DEFENDING MY MASCULINITY AND OUR DEMOCRACY
Posted by: Robba29
Comments are closed-
Posted by: defiant on Sep 22, 2007 9:39 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm not saying feminism in general is bad - it's a good thing, just like masculinism. I'm saying that women who dress extremely provocatively and sexually, yet want to be considered more than sex objects, are obviously creating their own problem. Men who are immasculated or negatively judged for even noticing their bodies, are reacting by asserting dominance and fantasy in or through the pornography - they are reacting naturally with masculinism.
So, "Sex in the City" is over, girls. If women want respect and equality, they can start by being worthy of it. Stop the cock-teasing. Stop the double-standard sexuality. Stop sending men the signal that you're nothing more than sexual, while also trying to immasculate them for noticing that you're at all sexual. If men want control, they can start by ignoring what this new conflicted, "lipstic" generation of women are doing, and avoid giving them the power they are unworthy of in the first place.
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» RE: lipstick feminism and power
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» RE: lipstick feminism and power
Posted by: defiant
» RE: lipstick feminism and power
Posted by: taryn
» RE: lipstick feminism and power
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» RE: lipstick feminism and power
Posted by: defiant
» RE: lipstick feminism and power
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» RE: lipstick feminism and power
Posted by: defiant
» RE: lipstick feminism and power
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» RE: lipstick feminism and power
Posted by: defiant
» RE: men can't walk around with our penises out - but women can expose their cleavage
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: "Stop the cock-teasing."???
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: YES "Stop the cock-teasing."!!!
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» The Butler did it!! Or maybe he didn't.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: The Butler did it!! Or maybe he didn't.
Posted by: Landbaron
Comments are closed-
Posted by: schnak on Sep 22, 2007 9:59 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: More White Knight to the rescue?
Posted by: logansafi
» when women speak out against the degradation of porn
Posted by: goatini
» RE: WHAT'S "DEGRADING" ABOUT PORN????
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but...
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: athamandia on Sep 22, 2007 10:15 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why are the most violent video games rated "T" but the sexy video games are rated "adult"? Because men feel in control when they experience the emotions of anger, of revenge. But when men experience the emotions of love, longing and desire they do not feel in control.
Why of the so-called 10 commandment, why is adultery the big no-no, when greed is not? (Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife -- well we saw what happened with Bill Clinton. Thou shalt not covet thy neigbhor's goods -- come on! Bush *told us* it was our duty to shop, to covet.)
The answer is the same -- men don't like it when women share the power. So, porn that is degrading and humiliating to women solves that problem. Men are still in control and it's still about power and dominance. Love has left the arena.
And you know, I don't even like saying "men" here. It's that the power structure supports the hyper-male view that dominates the world now. Women's voices are marginalized and ignored. This is just one more example. But it's not just women's voices. It's the voices of all (including some men) who don't share the dominant power structure view that are degraded and marginalized.
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» RE: women have *some* power in sex, that's why men must control
Posted by: truthfinder
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sojourner on Sep 22, 2007 10:30 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mbruton on Sep 22, 2007 10:33 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sexual repression causes more messed up attitudes and violence than porn ever could. This feminist attitude of blaming free expressions of sexuality for societal ills is ludicrous at best. Men are naturally dominant sexually and women are naturally submissive sexually to varying degrees so what's the problem with expressing that? Shall we instead turn against our own nature's and try to box ourselves into a hallucinatory norm with which YOU feel comfortable? This can only lead to REAL rape and violence just as the suppression of homosexual urges among catholic men leads to homosexual child rape perpetrated by catholic priests who thought that by joining the clergy God would cure their "bad feelings".
It is rather disingenuous to blame gonzo porn on men alone. I often sleep with women who want to be be beaten during sex up to and including having cigarette butts put out on their backs while being sodomized. I accomodate such wishes to the extent that I am comfortable with. If porn goes beyond your personal bounderies just turn it off!
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» RE: It is a question of semantics really...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: You make an interesting point
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
Comments are closed-
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Sep 22, 2007 10:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's normal to desire sex - that's a basic biological phenomenon. However, history and experience and science have all shown that 'free love' - uninhibited sex with multiple partners - creates all kinds of problems including, spread of transmissable diseases, disruption of social networks, and so on. I don't care how 'open-minded' you are, if you find your partner in bed with your best friend you're probably going to be upset.
Really, it's surprisingly like a chimpanzee tribe in many cases - the alpha male is supposed to get his pick of the females, but genetic studies show that the non-alpha males father a good number of chimpanzee children while the alpha male is off doing something else.
Advertising relies on the manipulation of basic psychology, and so does propaganda. The Catholic Church got it started with their theme of "Original Sin" which required repentance, i.e. paying a tithe to the church. Now that's clever! Similarly, advertising relies heavily on associating consumer products with sex, whether it's a car or a pharmaceutical drug or a loan.
Take all this, look at it objectively, and what you'd predict is a society that is completely obssessed with sex as well as with self-image. From a well-adjusted perspective, porn is just hilarious - assuming that we're talking about consenting adults being paid for their performances here, not some criminal slavery situation. Paying money to watch other people have sex? Huh? Would you pay money to watch other people eat food?
The issue of the 'kind of porn' is a little silly. This reflects the slightly different theme of the dominator culture that is just a reflection of corporate heirarchical structure - Newt Gringrich was notorious for forcing sexual advances on his aides, but that's likely true for the majority of Senators. However, what are we saying here? Is dominatrix porn (woman on man?) acceptable? Is Karl Rove's favorite, (man on man?) acceptable? Is 'loving porn that portrays a healthy relationship between progressive couples' acceptable? Whatever.
The combination of a Puritan streak in American society, plus the endless use of sex in advertising, plus the emphasis on sex as sinful in religious institutions, creates this phenomena - obssession with sex.
It's simple: "Don't think of a blue elephant. Especially, don't think of a scantily clad blue elephant doing a pole dance. And don't ever, ever think of blue elephants performing oral sex on one another - that is so very sinful! Shocking! Damn it, I told you not to think about that! You're going to hell for sure now, unless you give me twenty bucks and beat yourself with a stick!"
Eventually, people just can't stand it anymore, and they rush off to buy some porn to take the pressure off. Sad but true. Or, like Larry Craig and Bob Allen, they start cruising men's bathrooms - or like Mark Foley, they send dirty messages to teenage boys - or like Ted Haggard, they arrange for methamphetamine-spike hot oil massages with male prostitutes.
Don't let the advertisers push your buttons, in other words. In fact, you really ought to just notice when someone's trying to push your buttons, and not respond.
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» the big question: is sex a spectator sport? OK, another big question is how attractive to women
Posted by: Suzon
» RE: In a word: advertising in a consumer society relies primarily on sex
Posted by: jonestown kool-aid
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Posted by: angstotheclown on Sep 22, 2007 10:40 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Monkeys are easier to control than human beings
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: It is their only chance to see...
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: anechoic on Sep 22, 2007 11:25 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
violence in porn is a symptom of a much much larger problem: consumer capitalism...
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» RE: sleeping sheeple
Posted by: jonestown kool-aid
» RE: Maher scared of breastfeeding?
Posted by: taryn
» RE: Maher scared of breastfeeding?
Posted by: anechoic
Comments are closed-
Posted by: akp-alternet on Sep 22, 2007 11:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As is often the case, this paradox can be resolved by recognizing that one of the assumptions is wrong. Here, it's the assumption that U.S. society routinely rejects cruelty and degradation.
Umm, let me offer up an alternative assumption that's wrong: the idea that we, as a society, are open enough about pornography to apply social norms to it. I mean, what's the social vehicle that we could use to keep pornography in the acceptable realm? Where can we say, 'Hey, I think it's ok if you watch this porn that shows good, healthy relationships, but if you are going to watch this kind of misogynist porn then we're going to condemn you for it'? As long as there is a social stigma with admitting to watching and enjoying porn in the first place, then there won't be a way for society to exert influence over what kinds of porn is consumed by those who do watch it.
In that way, being opposed to pornography in general shares certain features with the abstinence movement. If you say that people should abstain from sex outside of marriage, and in order to encourage that you shouldn't teach them about things like contraceptives and safe sex, then it means that you run the risk that the people who do go ahead and have extramarital/non-monogamous sex will do so in an unsafe way. Similarly, if you say that pornography is bad in general and people shouldn't watch it, then you've lost the ability to influence what porn people watch when they do.
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» RE: Anti-pornography and the abstinence movement
Posted by: anechoic
» RE: Anti-pornography and the abstinence movement
Posted by: anechoic
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Whitecliff on Sep 22, 2007 12:22 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Only an idiot buys porn in the 21st Century. Indeed, the market for pornography on DVDs is basically collapsing as we speak. HELL YES -- let us continue to put these California scumbags out of business!
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» This gets my vote for best comment on this thread!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» vote for best comment on this thread!
Posted by: taryn
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Posted by: NAM67VET on Sep 22, 2007 12:23 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reading the posts and comments reveals some honest confusion and soul-searching that speaks well of the book and of the contributors. There seems to be some bewilderment with the idea that porn is demeaning and that the level of violence is ever increasing, but this should be no surprise at all. There also seems to be some confusion between pornography and freedom of expression in both sexuality and the arts, whereas there is no connection whatsoever between them.
It may help resolve both of these confusions if a clear line is drawn between pornography, which is a manifestation of evil, and sexuality, which permeates the most creative of human activity. Sexuality is our great mystery and playground - the way we find out who we are in the process of honoring and celebrating one another - the two equal and opposite parts of what it is to be human. Pornography is evil.
Evil is a nasty business that needs to be de-mythologized. It is nothing other-worldly or supernatural - it is thoroughly human behavior. Evil is the deep end of the spectrum of nasty things we all do when - for whatever reason, valid or otherwise - we feel powerless and wronged. When we are hurt, we sometimes reach out to hurt someone else (or ourselves) as a way of regaining the illusion of control over our life. This is stupid and self-defeating, of course, but we all do it. Humans are like that - we all do wrong at times, and we all know it.
But again, evil is the deep end of wrong-doing. Definition Time: "Evil is the lustful pursuit of pleasure through destruction and degradation." When we have fallen into evil, we "get off" on destruction and degradation - of one another, of the environment, of our business or political competition, and even of ourselves. It is a lustful urge, which means (as was pointed out in the book and comments) that it can never be sated -it spirals down into self-destruction.
Pornography is minor league evil, in a way, but like a cancer it can spread and kill the soul. Combat veterans and police who are exposed to the evil of one-on-one killing - either as the killers or as witnesses - sometimes fall into the evil of killing lust. I have veteran comrades still on the streets from Viet Nam who still commune with those demons, and are now, sadly being joined by vets from Iraq and Afghanistan who have seen and done things that no human can encounter without a wound to the soul.
Men and women alike fall into evil and do terrible things to one another and to themselves in the process of self-destruction. Pornography exploits male-on-female violence, of course, but the existence of female-on-female and female-on-male violence (sometimes physical, more often psychological) should be noted in passing.
Pornography is seen as dirty for a reason - because most of us recoil from and disavow it, as we do all evil. The reactions from those who have been close to the "industry" is instructive - everyone feels soiled. All evil is like that.
Hope this is helpful.
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» RE: Actually, Porn is NOT evil
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
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Posted by: SamFox on Sep 22, 2007 12:37 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here is another reason that US culture is unpopular in the Middled East Islamic nations. Anther reason they hate us.
They don't want a constitution that protects this sort of decadence. Yes the ME Islamic nations go too far the other way many times. But when they equate US freedom to the great amount decadence coming from here, how can we respond?
SamFox
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» RE: Good points in the article!! By repressing like they do?
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Good points in the article!! By repressing like they do?
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: melissazumsteg on Sep 22, 2007 12:50 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In an era where gore and violence is okay, even encouraged (like war,) but one tit on TV is a violation of our values, I think it only makes sense to combine the two (sex and violence) to capitalize on what American men have come to find stimulating (I don't blame the individual, we're all barbarians together.)
Anyone seen Quentin Tarentino's "Death-Proof?" This is snuff film-making at it's finest, replete with hot young women giving lap dances, a smooth talking, over-the-hill anti-hero, and a bad-ass car all whipped up with a hefty dose of head-splattering and dismemberment (of the women, of course.) Sure, the villain gets his come-uppance at the end when girls beat the sh*t out of him, but not before the film has shown us all the gory manly pornography we can stomach. And my normally very supportive, sensitive, feminist, kinda "metro" boyfriend was literally drooling waiting for this to come out on tape.
The solution for men lies in taking back your sexuality from the people who would capitalize on it, and trying somehow to reacquaint yourself with a touch...a kiss...moist skin...soft bodies...and all the other delectables of the REAL sexual act. Screw the imitations.
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» There wasn't much gore in the pornography..
Posted by: l_m_n
» RE: As a woman looking at this...
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: As a woman looking at this...
Posted by: truthfinder
» RE: WELL, WHAT ARE THE ALTERNATIVES BESIDES PORN AND STRIP CLUBS???
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: WELL, WHAT ARE THE ALTERNATIVES BESIDES PORN AND STRIP CLUBS???
Posted by: jingles
» RE: WELL, WHAT ARE THE ALTERNATIVES - Yeah, that has worked so well for priests
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Yeah, that has worked so well for priests
Posted by: jingles
» RE: A FEW WORDS ON DEATHPROOF
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: As a woman looking at this...
Posted by: MAD
» RE: As ANOTHER woman looking at this...
Posted by: athamandia
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Posted by: fiddler83 on Sep 22, 2007 1:31 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Professional vice hunters typically talk about violent entertainment the same way they characterize pornography: as an addictive force for which you rapidly acquire a tolerance, necessitating increasing amounts of transgression to satiate your craving. But consider the success of Maxim magazine and the Girls Gone Wild videos, both of which debuted in the late ’90s, precisely as the Internet was revolutionizing the distribution of strains of hard-core porn that even most perverts didn’t know existed. According to the addiction/escalation theory, Maxim and Girls Gone Wild should be obsolete by now. Why pay good money for a few photos of Eva Longoria in her bathing suit when you can watch golden shower orgies for free at the click of a button?"
Exactly!! Just because these things exist doesn't automatically make it an epidemic. They said the same things when playboy first came out - it's going to ruin society and lead us down into the muck. Sorry, but we're doing fine and now playboy seems quaint and safe.
Now, I realize there's a lot of weird and scary shit out there, but until somone shows me a study that proves a CAUSE (not a correlation or close relationship) between looking at "gonzo" porn and violence against partners, then frankly I'm not going to get worried. Porn often gets mired in how in makes people feel without statistics to back it up (sorry the size of the industry doesn't inherently make it problematic - I want statistics and longitudinal studies, measuring the actual effect porn has on attitudes and behaviors). The fact is that there are some people who like strange stuff sexually and unless that desire is physically hurting non-concenting parnters, it's none of my damn business.
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Posted by: Pip Wilson on Sep 22, 2007 1:37 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» psyche 101
Posted by: dancingcloud
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Posted by: jonestown kool-aid on Sep 22, 2007 2:14 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On the flip side many couples do get off on extreme sex acts, and porn is just an instructional video for amazing sex. And like it or not there is a healthy population of strong free-willed women out there who simply get off on being manhandled and submitting on their own terms, with or without the existence of pornography,this is also true. And for the record, I do like some gonzo, but multiple dudes on one girl (creampies etc...) and the bukkake or transexual nonsense has no business in straight porn, 'nuff said.
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Posted by: athamandia on Sep 22, 2007 3:25 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why are the most violent video games rated "T" but the sexy video games are rated "adult"? Because men feel in control when they experience the emotions of anger, of revenge. But when men experience the emotions of love, longing and desire they do not feel in control.
Why of the so-called 10 commandment, why is adultery the big no-no, when greed is not? (Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife -- well we saw what happened with Bill Clinton. Thou shalt not covet thy neigbhor's goods -- come on! Bush *told us* it was our duty to shop, to covet.)
The answer is the same -- men don't like it when women share the power. So, porn that is degrading and humiliating to women solves that problem. Men are still in control and it's still about power and dominance. Love has left the arena.
And you know, I don't even like saying "men" here. It's that the power structure supports the hyper-male view that dominates the world now. Women's voices are marginalized and ignored. This is just one more example. But it's not just women's voices. It's the voices of all (including some men) who don't share the dominant power structure view that are degraded and marginalized.
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» RE: women have ALL OF THE power in sex - they are the "gatekeepers"
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: women have ALL OF THE power in sex - they are the "gatekeepers"
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» RE: women have ALL OF THE power in sex - they are the "gatekeepers"
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: women have ALL OF THE power in sex - they are the "gatekeepers"
Posted by: athamandia
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Sep 22, 2007 3:27 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Patricia Tucker
"True Confessions" type magazines and soap operas are
women's porn. Why are they never mentioned?
Women's porn is much more degrading to men than men's
porn is to women. Notice that all of the men in soap
operas are either in jail or just got out of jail or are about to
be in jail. Sexual equality requires that women's porn
receive the same treatment as men's porn. So get soap
operas off of airwaves TV and get "True Confessions" out
of grocery stores.
This last came up on June 28, 2007. Why has Alternet
forgotten about womens' pornography so soon? Alternet
must be sexist/female chauvenist.
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» Yes, 'Romance' is women's porn
Posted by: logansafi
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Posted by: bjandresen on Sep 22, 2007 4:31 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: No Thanks Don Hazen and Robert Jensen
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: Thanks Don Hazen and Robert Jensen
Posted by: dmaciewski
» "the pornographic mind is laid bare...."
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER on Sep 22, 2007 4:44 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reality is, there is a large population of unpartnered men - guys (like me) who, for a variety of reasons, don't have a woman and aren't likely to have a woman any time in the near future.
Parallel to us unpartnered guys there is an even larger population of involuntarily celebate partnered men - guys who have a woman in their life, but who's woman won't have sex with them anymore.
Spend a lot of time around middle aged working class married guys (the sort of fellows you'd run into on a construction site or in a factory - the kind of guys I work with every day) and you will run into lots of these men.
Without porn, what are we supposed to do for a sexual outlet?
Do you have any suggestions, Mr Hazen and Professor Jensen?
And please don't say "erotica" - honestly, that stuff is boring, and totally alien to male sexuality
Trust me, I've looked at that stuff, and TRIED to get off on it.... reminding myself that I'm a communist and a supporter of woman's rights, and I'm SUPPOSED to like this kind of 'woman friendly' erotic material - it just didn't work!!!
If you guys have a realistic alternative to porn for the legion of men who don't have a sex partner, please share the information with us - I'm sure we'd love to have a sexual outlet that's not sexist!!!
Until then, please leave the porno alone!!
On behalf of all the unsexually fulfilled men in America, I thank you!
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» the alternative is to get a life
Posted by: deborama
» RE: the alternative is to get a life
Posted by: mbruton
» RE: the alternative is to get a life
Posted by: pizzmoe
» RE: the alternative is to get a life - Sex is a natural part of a healthy life
Posted by: UnEasyOne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER on Sep 22, 2007 4:50 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In our society, women are the "gatekeepers" - they decide which men get sex, and which men are consigned to involuntary celibacy.
Porn is nothing more or nothing less than a healthy sexual outlet for those men who are denied sex by women.
Yeah, I'd freely admit that a LOT of porn is sexist (remember, the men who are it's intended audience seriously resent women, for denying them sex) - but, do you have an alternative?
And would you really want to live in a society where unpartnered men - and men who's partners deny them sex - did NOT have porn as an outlet?
A society like that would have a lot of rapes (just look at Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or any other country that bans porn to confirm that fact).
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Posted by: COhippie on Sep 22, 2007 4:56 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not in this article. This whole piece reminds me of something that someone once pointed out--people in the US look to the left for some sort of release from the sexual repression in our society, but they never find it, because the left in America can be every bit as prudish as the right. The left just disguises its prudery under the guise of social causes.
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» RE: ACTUALLY, PORN REDUCES VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: ACTUALLY, PORN REDUCES VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN
Posted by: Le Rouge
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Posted by: chomsky on Sep 22, 2007 5:08 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: This article is lame
Posted by: Le Rouge
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Posted by: Le Rouge on Sep 22, 2007 5:08 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I bet he's trying to impress some women in his life by being so sensitive, venerable and - I know the femafascists hate it - chivalrous.
I had to suffer through Robert Jensen's hysteria at UT in Austin. Once again a real man truly empathetic to the plight of porno prostitutes. I bet deep down inside her yearns to be an OB/GYN, salivating as this fetish of his about "Getting Off" really DOES get him off. We all have a little pervert brimming inside.
WOMEN NEED OUR HELP MEN OF THE WORLD!! WOMEN ARE FULLY UNAWARE AUTOMATONS NOT EVER KNOWING WHEN THEY ARE BEING OBJECTIFIED. WE CAN START BY BEING DISCIPLES OF MR. HAZEN AND MR. JENSEN: The Sheriff and his Deputy.
ONWARD!! DOWN WITH PORN, UP WITH .................... something
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» RE: The END of MY Masculinity
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» So sad
Posted by: Robba29
» RE: So sad
Posted by: conk
» RE: Wannabe Thought Police are So sad
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: Wannabe Thought Police are So sad
Posted by: Robba29
» RE: Wannabe Thought Police are So sad
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: Wannabe Thought Police are So sad
Posted by: Robba29
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Posted by: chief of okeefe on Sep 22, 2007 7:21 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe someday the US can be like Iraq, with constant "crackdowns" and constant "surveillance" and the rule of law gone with the wind...
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Posted by: mistery509 on Sep 22, 2007 7:42 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why do the actresses who do the porn movies put themselves into this demeaning situation? Is it the money? Is it the sex? Is it the publicity? Afterall no one ties them to the bed and forces them. They are willing. What kind of woman would let someone do this to her?
Why are the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq? Did someone force them to be there? They are there because they wanted to be there, so they have to take the consequenses.
It is a free country with free speech. How you use the freedom is each individual's choice.
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» RE: Why Do It?
Posted by: dmaciewski
» RE: adult film actresses do it for the $ 1,500 dollars a day
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
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Posted by: YogiBear on Sep 22, 2007 7:48 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, the kinds of porn you watch is okay and not degrading to anyone, but the kinds of porn other people watch is not? I guess we all should just do as you do. If you're not around to tell us what to watch, who should we consider as our decider for porn? George Bush? Tipper Gore?
How about a compromise -- Jenna Bush?
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» RE: JENNA BUSH, THE DECIDER?
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
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Posted by: Blue Heron on Sep 22, 2007 8:30 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: bcgirl125 on Sep 22, 2007 8:49 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Good point. We'll all be wanking our way to freedom!!
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Jersey Devil on Sep 22, 2007 9:01 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: unity1 on Sep 22, 2007 9:07 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
many thanks to Robert Jensen for having the guts/balls to stand up and speak truth to ignorance - I am interested as a woman in his perspective since the porn industry is targeted specially to men - his views are intelligent and incredibly important to me as woman - an insight into why so many girls go down this road, looking for respect via sex, giving the guy what he wants, explaining away her degredation with his rhetoric
the porn industry breed the pedophile industry and like the kill kill game industry or the kill kill movie industry or the kill kill military industrial complex or the kill kill sound of war drums beaten by politicians or the kill kill kill sermons fundamentalists give or the kill kill crys of racist groups all reveal the true shadow side of a male contrived a male defined and a male dominated humanity
In the end though even the men loose - the women as we well know have already lost, the right to vote has been squandered by those two willing to be manipulated by the dominant sex
and like the label thrown at anyone who speaks out against Israel - so also the person who speaks out against porn, the degradation of the feminine of the human in all its forms
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» Porn is to blame for pedophiloia?
Posted by: logansafi
» RE: SO PORNO CAUSES WAR???
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» Censorship causes battle
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Censorship causes battle
Posted by: mbruton
» Straw man again...
Posted by: Robba29
» RE: how sad
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: how sad
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: how sad
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: how sad - I don't doubt that Dworkin was harassed for her views
Posted by: UnEasyOne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: auio on Sep 22, 2007 9:20 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, I hope the book actually contains some facts and data, because all I personally saw in the article and the excerpt was a lot of wildly speculative assertions. This line is rising and that line is rising and there is this one website that is really disgusting and there are these screwed up people. I especially like the avoidance of a core issue: do violent people like violent media or does violent media make people violent? Does watching bangbus make men into cretins, or are cretins the only people who like bangbus? Personally I find it hard to believe that a nice person would become evil if exposed to PORNAGRAPHY.
Finally, I read an article recently in which a study was done that correlated increased access to pornography with decreased violence towards women. Possibly giving an outlet to people who have violence problems? Who knows...
Cheers,
A
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» Actually...
Posted by: Blue Heron
» really?...
Posted by: logansafi
» RE: Have you ever actually watched a porno???
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: Have you ever actually watched a porno???
Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Have you ever actually watched a porno??? Aha! Honesty!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: "Um, my point is I hate men..."
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: "Um, my point is I hate men..."
Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: You are not exploding anything but your own bias...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Actually...
Posted by: Joe
» RE: What Planet?
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Violetflame11 on Sep 22, 2007 9:43 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: eligion is the root of violent porn
Posted by: Violetflame11
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Posted by: Julia1977 on Sep 22, 2007 10:19 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Were we better in the days before sex education? Living in darkness and ignorance about basic hygience and anatomy and the art of lovemaking?
Would we be better served by revering the family values crowd of pedophile Mark Foley, anono-sex shopper Larry Craig, and "Mr. Christian" Ted Haggard? All these men of honor and integrity knew and preached the dirtiness of sex and (especially homosexuality) yet were actively violating their own words. They were especially critical of pornography but saw no problem carrying on illicit sex affairs of their own for years.
What does the BIBLE have to say? Apparently God approves and promotes polygamy and multiple partners especially for Solomon, King David and others. Really? Read the passages for yourself:
http://ChristianPolygamy.com
http://BiblicalPolygamy.com
Folks, if God promotes polygamy, and "watches over all that we do", doesn't that make him the unchallenged King of Porn? If its OK for God to create, promote, and encourage sex, should we be so skittish about it?
Conservatives like Dobson, Fallwell, Jim Bakker, and Sweaty Sinner Swaggert have been waging a war against sex for years but never get called on polygamy in the Bible.
Why do they get a free pass when God's view of sex is much more permissive?
How many thousands of porn viewers have become more confident, more creative, and overall better lovers?
I would bet there are thousands if not millions who've benefitted from porn.
Just like watching any sport, you become more knowledgable and proficient by watching the pros.
I'm not talking about the degrading language and violence that's sometimes present. That's an abomination and should be banned as a form of disrespect and abuse.
But sex itself is not. It is a joyful form of love and fundamental part of human expression. There are many who view Porn as the Olympics of sex and use it as an learning and enhancement tool. They take what is good and drop what is bad and that seems a most sensible practice. I've noticed that these folks have less hang ups and contradiction between what they say and what they actually do and that's a more honest and refreshing way to address human psycology and sexuality in the end.
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» RE: Porn is "The Olympics of Sex"
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: A FEW SIMPLE EXPLANATIONS ABOUT MEN, PORN, SEX AND WHY WE DON'T LIKE GAY STUFF
Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
» RE: Porn is "The Olympics of Sex"
Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Porn is "The Olympics of Sex"
Posted by: mbruton
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Posted by: Landbaron on Sep 23, 2007 12:10 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Blue Heron on Sep 23, 2007 12:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Couldn't have said it better myself...
Posted by: jingles
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Posted by: daniel347x on Sep 23, 2007 12:47 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The violent porn industry may be huge. But I feel certain that the fashion industry is "alot more huge".
Many people respond to this idea as absurd, because there is no violence in fashion magazines. But the dehumanization of women in fashion magazines (an almost undeniable truth, I think) plays an analagous role in our culture to apathetic citizens who are vaguely opposed to the war in Iraq but continue to pay taxes - a 'perfectly harmless' thing to do - they're 'not really contributing' to violence. The violent porn is like the killing that occurs in the war...paid for by our tax money.
It's also analagous to people in our culture who drive cars, take airplanes, use electricity - even though we have a potentially disastrous environmental crisis. It's not the big polluters running the power companies, or the auto industry executives, who are fundamentally at fault. We all are.
This is why I think women's representation in the media culture - as epitomized by the fashion industry, though it's much broader than just fashion magazines - add up to an industry that is much more harmful than the industry of violent porn.
If we had a world without fashion magazines, a world in which women in the media were treated with their sexuality balanced with other aspects of being human - we'd have a world without violent degrading porn. But keep the media culture as it is - violent porn will be inevitable.
If you get down to it, the degradation of women in the media culture exists for the same reason poor people are degraded by the culture at large. In our culture, people are perceived as more sexually attractive if they are more successful. Poor people are told they need to behave, and then they will succeed. For many, this is a myth. When you tell men (or women) lies about the sexual rewards they will obtain if they play by the rules, they will become diseased on the inside. They will want to degrade the women whose own degradation by the media culture - devoid of balance with other aspects of being human - has been held up as a shining spotlight of what is the only way to engage sexual desire in the public world, namely by being a responsible, successful citizen confronted constantly by hypersexualized images of women while behaving with them based on a forced illusion that they are exhibiting other aspects of being human besides sexuality. The images of women in the fashion industry and in the media at large strongly act to eliminate or hide every aspect of women's humanity besides their sexuality. I think this latter point is hard to deny.
Dan Nissenbaum
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» RE: Not the fashion industry
Posted by: GoodMorning
» RE: Not the fashion industry
Posted by: daniel347x
» RE: Not the fashion industry - Excellent comment, Dan
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: yellow on Sep 23, 2007 1:07 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I must say that this is THE most repulsive book cover design in all publishing history.
Posted by: Landbaron
» Looking forward to the book; also hate the cover
Posted by: cheressemm
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Posted by: Camilla Cracchiolo on Sep 23, 2007 2:07 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What I think *might* be happening is that sex is now used to sell us everything and as a result:
1) men, who are probably more sensitive to visual sexual stimulation than women, are *constantly* being stimulated. A person can't drive down the street in the U.S., or turn on TV, or read a magazine or a newspaper, without constantly having naked or near naked women shoved in their faces.
I remember reading an account by a man who went to Nicaragua after the revolution to help with the harvest, and after a month there, noticed that his sex drive, which had been driving him crazy with frustration, was no longer so frustrating. He felt "normal", just not driven nuts by it. Maybe it was the hard physical labor he was doing, but he himself thought it was that the Sandinistas had banned overtly sexual billboards. He remarked that the frustration immediately started up again when he got back home.
2) As a result of any kind of constant exposure, people become resistant. Naomi Klein and others have talked about how advertising companies are very worried because people have developed a resistance to traditional advertising strategies and so now ads have to be much more creative, they're frantically working on product placement in movies & TV, etc.
I wonder if it's not a matter of on the one hand having the horniness level always on high, while at the same time needing more and more stimulation to get off.
BTW, whether it causes extremes in porn or not, I think constantly stimulating men with sexual ads is a very cruel thing to do to men. I've had a lot of conversations with men who talk about how frustrated they feel, how it's NOT necessarily a good, nice feeling to be horny all the time, especially if you have no one to have sex with. I've met men in their late 30s and 40s who have expressed relief that they are no longer thinking every 3 minutes about sex.
The answer to the porn problem then, assuming that it really IS a problem and porn is getting way degrading, might be to limit sex in ads, while continuing to NOT censor porn, keep the strip clubs open, etc.
I don't have a problem with sex work, per se. What makes me furious, though, is the way one of the most beautiful and basic things in life gets turned on us to make profits for corporations. Despite what the Supreme Court has said, I *don't* think corporations have the same rights to free speech as individual human beings. I'd LOVE to see laws passed restricting sex in advertising, especially billboards, as well as laws prohibiting advertising of alcohol and cigarettes except in very special situations.
The other answer, of course, would be to make sure that people in the sex industry (as others have pointed out, many men are in porn and prostitution too) are unionized, and have proper on-the-job protections. You'd be surprised at how little many of these folks are paid.
I'd like to see the establishment of red-light districts where those who want strippers or hookers or sex shows, whatever, can go and have those desires satisfied. I'd like to see these districts controlled by the people who work there, so we don't wind up with just another set of Mustang Ranch type brothels while people are prohibited from working for themselves.
Again, I'm not entirely sure we have a problem, but I have heard from a lot of folks that porn has gotten much more extreme, and sex workers in porn are really pushed to do more and more things that ultimately are damaging to them. I don't know how great a percentage of porn that actually comprises, but I don't want to see anyone who does this work hurt.
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» RE: Advertising and the sexualized society.
Posted by: goldmarx
» confirmation
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: andiii on Sep 23, 2007 4:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As every mirror image, pornography is mirror-inverted somehow. To find out how the projection works may be the most interesting question, because it tells most about our actual condition.
My guess is that women appear as objects of abuse because their nature has never been fully compatible to "male" capitalism. Feminity though may be a main force of a dawning new era, but for now has to "suffer" simbolicly for the currently dissatisfying circumstances. For this kind of humiliation, which place could be better than the shows of a industry which produces nothing but the pretention of satisfaction?
May be it is the destiny of everey upcoming social force, as long as they are not strong enough to rule themselves: Their first role is to play the scapegoat for the failure of those still in power, as at the same time they are constantly told by the old forces: See, you'll never make it!
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Posted by: craigandrew on Sep 23, 2007 6:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Porn is how a declining culture diminishes women; gladiatorial events are how a declining culture diminishes men. The only issue is that we are declining.
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Posted by: GoodMorning on Sep 23, 2007 6:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Prudes hate women too
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 23, 2007 7:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: corgyn on Sep 23, 2007 9:16 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My girlfriend and I have been making and selling gang bang and sex party DVDs and contributing content to "amateur" adult sites for 7 years. We make very good money for a part-time fun business. She's 39, has paid for a boob job, car, half a house by having pictures taken of something she was doing before anyway. She's been into group sex since college, enjoy multiple penetrations and all that you assume is degrading is to her raucous fun. She's naturally exhibitionist and has weird ideas of what gets her off. You ought to see the one where she rides a champagne bottle and sucks 3 guys off. The pumping up and down causes the open bottle still full to explore in and all over her - as of last week we have directly sold over 1000 home made copies at $25 7 years ago she would have blown the 3 guys just for the face full.
Look at Carol Cox, now a millionaire with her Canadian porno empire! She was just a local slut that used the net to enjoy herself for millions.
See REDCLOUDS all "amateur" 1000s off contributors worldwide.
Porn to the PEOPLE!
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» RE: To ban Gonzo Porn... I find that very distasteful
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: cheressemm on Sep 23, 2007 9:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It's really all about the gender divide
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: It's really all about the gender divide
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: It's really all about the gender divide
Posted by: goldmarx
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Posted by: scot on Sep 23, 2007 10:44 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: And Gay Male Porno?
Posted by: cheressemm
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Posted by: ekipnrut on Sep 23, 2007 12:10 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Prison/Slavery
foul...rampant...unchecked:
KimBuchananImpunityArticle
ISHappening in Our Country..Prison Rape
And of course exported:
IRAQ
To really get the FULL force of what is being carried out in IRAQ...you should advanced search Google 'rape' , 'girl' , ''tear' and 'secondary' as words and as an EXACT phrase:
''abu ghraib'. It is the 'Hampton Roads Independent Media Coalition' result that you want...its description starts out with
.."An 11-year-old-girl.." You will have to select the CACHED copy...
This stuff has been tolerated in the American racist gulag
prison system for decades. As long as the victims were WOC and/or white women of marginal financial resource or social
status..nobody gave a shit...it was a big joke. Read thru that
'CACHED' material...if you can stomach it....and having done so...don't ask any more 'dumb shirt' 'why-oh-why'..'how can this be' questions about American porn....
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» An IMPORTANT REMINDER to feminist researchers et.al........
Posted by: ekipnrut
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Posted by: rac on Sep 23, 2007 12:19 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think Jensen should widen his peep hole, pal around with a wider circle of pornoholics. Ask Pee Wee Herman if he can sample from his selection. I seriously doubt the general patrons of porn are any different than you or me who have normal, healthy relationships with our better halves unless, of course, we are alone, dick in hand, taking it out on her!
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» RE: Of those who like hurting women
Posted by: Kryptman40k
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Posted by: johndoraemi on Sep 23, 2007 1:35 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's ONE kind of pornography. If you go out on the net seeking the "cruelest" sick shit, guess what? You're going to find it. As if pornography and sexual deviation are some new phenomenon. Please.
Not one word about soft pornography, which is at least half of the industry. No one even touching anyone else, just a revealing of beautiful bodies. Even as you unfairly attack Playboy, which is strictly soft-porn, this is a dishonest and completely skewed (hysterical?) presentation of the porn industry. You have attempted to smear the entire concept because of a guilt by association logical fallacy.
"People routinely assume that pornography is such a difficult and divisive issue because it's about sex. In fact, this culture struggles unsuccessfully with pornography because it is about men's cruelty to women, and the pleasure men sometimes take in that cruelty."
More hysterical generalization that just doesn't match reality. Most (hard) porn IS sex, and IS just consenting adults having pleasurable sex. What you're trying to present as the majority is quite a small minority of deviants who get off on that sort of thing. This is a dishonest article for that reason.
"The values that drive the slutbus also drive the larger culture."
Says you. Lacking evidence.
"The editorial director of Playboy, who says that his company has "an emphasis on party," tells potential advertisers: "We're in the mainstream."
And they do some better investigative reporting than Alternet.
"First, imagine what we could call the cruelty line -- the measure of the level of overt cruelty toward, and degradation of, women in contemporary mass-marketed pornography. That line is heading up, sharply."
It's easier to find, a la the Internet. If that's what you're looking for, you will find it.
In the past that sort of thing was hard to find and underground (S&M).
"How do we explain the simultaneous appearance of more, and increasingly more intense, ways to humiliate women sexually and the rising popularity of the films that present those activities?"
Because any idiot with a camcorder can go into the business. Any moron with a computer can watch it. Is this so subtle that it's a mystery? It's also created and marketed all over the world, and not just our "culture." This is a global phenomenon with global reach. If you haven't considered the global implications of the Internet yet, why are you writing such drivel?
"This is a culture with a well-developed legal regime that generally protects individuals' rights and freedoms, and yet it also is a strikingly cruel culture in the way it accepts brutality and inequality."
True, as all western cultures have been since they started colonizing other peoples. This is an old story, and better presented in our acceptance of war criminals running the nation, than in dishonestly trying to pretend the "cruel" pornographers are poised to take over the nation.
John Doraemi publishes Crimes of the State Blog (no hystrionics, just the facts)
http://crimesofthestate.blogspot.com/
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» the root
Posted by: johnp
» RE: Over Generalize Much?
Posted by: herbal
» RE: Over Generalize Much? Great comment, John
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: newagerev on Sep 23, 2007 2:02 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
of women.....we give you birth, we are your mothers, sisters,
aunties, etc.....I am woman, womb of humanity, womb of my
son...It is this woeful inadequacy and lack of capacity to LOVE
that makes true love impossible....I gave up relationships w/
men 20 years ago...I had a wonderful husband....but, he lost
me when he had a 5 minute fling w/ my uncle's wife, while I
was setting up our new apt...he went w/ her to pick up the last
of our things....I felt it happening before I ever looked at him when he got back...I have never loved like that again, nor am
I interested in any "love" which seems to be, as this porn article clearly shows....sex is not making love, and it does not
engender LOVE!! I have felt saddened by this great proliferation of pornographic SPEAK & ACTION...This is a sad
commentary on the state of life for women, and reveals a great resentment of mother, woman, wife....I mother and care for others, but, I have no desire to have a man in my life as partner....two of my best friends were gay men, one was very funny & a loyal & sensitive man...the other was an artist,
they were both great friends and very loyal, sharing, caring,
etc......as for the rest, I have plenty of people of both sexes
who enjoy life, conversations of politics, love, mysteries of life....I'll keep these to me, even tho some are long gone...Count me as one who finds anything that shines with love & understanding, and respect!! For couples who like sex v. making love to one you have care & feeling for, I find there must be something very lacking inside oneself....indeed, porn
strikes like a hot poker, that love is the part of this that has
been lost....sexuality shared w/ love is never porn..."making love & peace" is sublime!!
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Posted by: gonzoskismet on Sep 23, 2007 4:52 PM
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» RE: When All Else Fails...
Posted by: apophenia_monkey
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Posted by: bluebirdella on Sep 23, 2007 6:37 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Whoa, don't blame men for everything..
Posted by: drc3po
» That you don't orgasm?
Posted by: messedup
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Posted by: DCBeltway on Sep 23, 2007 7:58 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.humantrafficking.org/updates/498
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» Sounds reasonable from a societal standpoint to me.
Posted by: messedup
» RE: Sounds reasonable...There's hope
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Porn and Human Trafficking
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Porn and Human Trafficking
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Porn and Human Trafficking
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Porn and Human Trafficking - Then deal with the traffickers
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Porn and Human Trafficking
Posted by: schadenfreude23
» RE: Porn and Human Trafficking... Millions? Wow!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: drc3po on Sep 23, 2007 9:16 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: We're all porn stars...
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: Missing Piece on Sep 23, 2007 10:51 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://video.google.com/videosearch?num=10&so=0&q= A+Crude+Awakening+- +The+Oil+Crash+duration%3Amedium&start=0
good luck, get out of debt, go off grid, buy silver coins
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Posted by: debpark on Sep 23, 2007 11:18 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Park
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Park
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Park
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Park So you think "such a background" should render a woman inelegible
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: herbal on Sep 24, 2007 12:52 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The gay subculture sociologists and physicians who treat gays are well aware of the statistical detrius of anal sex. Yet heterosexual anal sex is implicitly more healthy? Its the same orifice whether female or male and simply the wrong bung. In addition to AIDS, anal sex eratta include inumerable fungus, bacterial and parasitic micro flora and fauna that go way beyond the dangers of vaginal and oral sex.
Why is AIDS, for example, a heterosexual plague in Africa? Your county health nurses will tell you. Anal sex is commonly practised as a means of birth control. Whole gernerations are being lost in Central Africa, as we are generally aware. What epidemiology we are not aware of yet, are the increased mortality rates in the US due to heterosexual anal sex. Current porn is promoting anal sex as normative to unsuspecting adolescents. What used to be called' fudge packing' by the homosexual 'bashers', begs attention in the degradation of women by the sexually insecure. Authors Hazen and Jensen could do better by paying more attention to health effects of things mentioned in passing like anal immediately followed by oral sex. Public health is a compelling issue for Hazen to cite in his apologies. Tragedy is masquerading as passion.
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Posted by: Counterglow on Sep 24, 2007 2:53 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Decades ago, a friend of mine showed me his dad's collection of hard-core porn mags. Double penetration and all the rest of the really ugly stuff were well-represented. Subsequent exposure to magazines left lying around in factory offices over the years indicate that this is anything but a new trend. Like incidents of wife abuse, the problem isn't so much that there's more of it, but that we're more aware of it.
2. As soon as you get on that "slippery slope" away from the First Amendment, a lot of very rich, very powerful, very motivated people, corporations and governments who stand to profit from "bringing sanity to the violent anarchy of free speech" (or however they choose to sell it) will ensure that you never, ever get it back again.
Why do you think the Iraq invasion was so easy to sell? It's because the people who profit from such things took a long look at how TV news brought Viet Nam home to America and ended the war. They decided that it would never be allowed to happen again, and have very successfully whipped the news media into line.
3. The word is straitjacket, not "straight jacket"; strait, as in narrow and confining.
4. Nobody on any side of the debate wants to admit that a lot of women get involved in porn because they'd rather have sex on camera for good money than get screamed at and harassed by a jerk boss for a few bucks an hour, then go to their night job, where they serve drinks to creepy old men who "accidentally" brush up against them at every excuse. And get screamed at and harassed by another jerk boss.
5. I simply cannot understand how anyone with a working brain can buy into the argument that something as one-dimensional as pornography can drive a whole culture to any meaningful degree. If that were the case, the level of violence routinely spewed out by American network television would be reflected in similar levels of violence in both the United States and Canada (more than 90% of the Canadian population lives within range of the major U.S. broadcasters). This is manifestly not the case. The two societies remain profoundly different.
Yes, there are lonely, pathetic individuals who define their relationships in terms of their porn collection. Those people are not the norm. Remember "snuff" films, and how they were supposed to represent a horrible new social trend? Don't you wish you'd given up your First Amendment rights to deal with them, as some at the time suggested?
Quit trying to kill a fly with a sledge hammer. Leave the First Amendment alone.
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Posted by: phiogistic on Sep 24, 2007 6:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many like to claim "porn has been around forever and there's nothing you can do about it." Murder has been around forever, too, but as a species we do try to rise above our murderous impulses, and contain those who can't. We don't throw up our hands and surrender to the inevitability of murder, we shouldn't surrender to porn, either.
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» Thanks but No Thanks!
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Thanks but No Thanks!
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Thanks but No Thanks!
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Thanks but No Thanks!
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Thanks but No Thanks!
Posted by: goldmarx
» "porn isn't about sex" - say what?!
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Thanks
Posted by: Counterglow
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Posted by: reader23 on Sep 24, 2007 7:31 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: obert
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: obert
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: obert
Posted by: goldmarx
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Sep 24, 2007 7:34 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who cares..!
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» Girls are difficult, porn is easy
Posted by: messedup
» RE: Girls are difficult, porn is easy
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: tomkara on Sep 24, 2007 7:43 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: kewpie on Sep 24, 2007 8:11 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women who watch porn are conned to believe that "sexual" acts such as this are normal. As women and men watch porn more and more even on Late night Cinemax, they will feel it is more acceptable and will be more open to participating.
In reality, women find these "sex" acts to the contrary or glamour that is portrayed on film and on the net. Many woman are devestated afterwards.
There are more men in the correction systems accross the country for sex crimes than ever before. The rise of porn is a major contributor. This is a complex issue that needs lots of attention. It does not just affect women. Our men are becoming more angry and more misogynistic. Our prisons are filling with viont repeat sex offenders!
Porn desensitizes the viewer and encourages violence. There is no such thing as "soft-porn" anymore.There are more and more sex addicts as a result of porn on the net. Time to look at porn in a new light.
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» RE: Porn is being a social problem!
Posted by: jasonk
» RE: Porn is being a social problem!
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: goldmarx on Sep 24, 2007 8:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No, Nina Hartley is not a "former" porn star. She is currently making and starring in the adult film and video industry, now in her 24th year in the adult film and video industry. She has been a member of the National Organization for Women and a life-long feminist in general.
Jensen claims to "respect" her voice (yeah, right!) but privileges the views of other, non-feminist sex workers over hers. Jensen claims to be a man of the Left, yet automatically rejects the views of Hartley, a socialist.
Jensen is supposed to be a professor of media studies, yet royally screws up the definition of the gonzo genre. "Gonzo" porn is not wall-to-wall sex - it is sex where the performers openly acknowledge the presence of the audience and the camera, thereby changing the interplay between the viewer and the viewed. This was adapted from the concept of Gonzo coined by renowned journalist Hunter Thompson, who was pro-porn himself and worked for the Mitchell Brothers in San Francisco before his career took off. [The Mitchell Brothers made the classic "Behind the Green Door"].
Porn where there is no narrative but just sex acts is called "Wall-to-Wall", not gonzo. Jensen writes as if he never heard of Hunter Thompson.
Jensen's descriptions of porn have to be challenged . His description of a Vivid feature, "Delusional" was dissected on the Pro-Porn Activist blog. In it, he ignored scenes where the man performed cunniligus on the woman and where every sex act they performed was a result of her stated request.
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» RE: Factual Errors Plague Porn Discussiion
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Factual Errors Plague Porn Discussiion
Posted by: goldmarx
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Posted by: hellofriends on Sep 24, 2007 8:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what i am more interested in is the connection to the theme of the "end of masculinity." if what American masculinity (which i agree to be fucked up) simply boils down to subjection and domination (which i think is another irresponsible simplification) HOW do we END this? what i get from this article is: "some porn is degrading to women and, if you're not into gross things, it is gross, and that it is somehow connected to men being big tough guys."
hazen (or jensen) write that porn reflects...
"the logic of domination and subordination that is central to patriarchy, hyper-patriotic nationalism, white supremacy, and a predatory corporate capitalism."
you HAVE to flush this out and qualify and explore it. this is the last paragraph of the article. it should be the first one and it needs to have more specific examples besides the fact that america goes to war (as pretty much all powerful countries (hypermasculine or not) have done throughout history) and movies are becoming more violent. i think there is some merit to this statement but it is pretty basic essay-writing procedure to prove your main theme, rather than just state it.
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Posted by: Kryptman40k on Sep 24, 2007 10:29 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know 3 girls who have worked in real hardcore porn movies. They have done ass to mouth, group sex gangbangs, intense anal, ass licking, verbal abuse, ect. and not one of them was ever forced or felt uneasy about doing these things. One even jumped in to some of these acts on her first scene and wasn't phased at all. They do it for money and often times they enjoy it.
The more you think that women aren't just as perverted and up for abuse as men are......the more you miss the point of feminism completely. I've also met plenty of girls in my personal life who enjoy very rough and dirty (even demeaning sex) and gotten me more into these kinds of sex acts that I would have ever gotten from just watching porn.
Also, why do we never hear about these issues within gay porn circles? Why are the men degraded by men not on the same level as these poor porn starlets who have to do double penetration?
Because women are easy targets for feminists. Porn stars, strippers, and sex workers are easy targets and victims of moral outrage from people who should be supporting them. People who don't have the guts to take on the real problems in society, like the church, the institution of marriage, and how subcultures are just as bad as the heterosexual models they attack.
Sex isn't getting rougher. Do some research on the history of sex and human culture. It's jut that our generation is stripping away more and more of the context of the 50's and we're being vilified for it. It's a reflection of how one feels.
Keep politics out of the bedroom.
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Posted by: Kryptman40k on Sep 24, 2007 10:45 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you took the time to actually ask a porn star you would know that these are all 100 percent staged. Everything is planned out well in advance and the girl agrees to all of it.
"But after three hours of information, analysis, and discussion of the commercial heterosexual pornography industry, many of these women are drained. Sadness hangs over the room."
Also why are you asking rape victims how they feel about porn? Isn't that like asking a burn victim how they feel about walking on hot coals? Of course they will be full of sadness on the topic.
And you bring up a good point, the reason none of these abuse/rape survivors can't match the stories of heterosexual porn is because PORN ISN'T RAPE! Even when it's porn about fake rape it's not rape at all. It's fantasy.
Rape is about power and has nothing to do with sex at all.
Porn is about sex and the fantasy of power.
How could somebody with so little understanding of the subject write an article on it?
Again, homosexual porn is just as bad (and if you'd done any research you'd know that) not to mention S&M torture porn.......but for some reason it doesn't get this critical eye that straight porn gets.
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» And the answer is...
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: HoboHomo on Sep 24, 2007 11:10 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I consider this pornographication of women to be horrific and an utter degradation of any society. And seems about to cross the line into popularizing snuff films. It is this commonly shared violence of male machismo which closely unites the cause of both women and sexual minorities. I have also come to the realization--after many years introspection--that worldwide violence (war, poverty, famine, slavery, etc.) will only come to an end, once homophobia is eradicated. Notice how much better a nation fares, when it comes to respect its own LGBT community: all other minorities (and females) win, too. Those nations would be most of Western Europe (especially Scandinavia and Holland), and the former British Commonwealth of Canada, New Zealand and Australia. In fact, it is the European Union pressing member-wannabes to cease their homophobic attitudes, as a prerequisite for joining their civilized network.
Social engineering is why we are constantly bombarded by heterocentric notions, in the media via movies, advertisements and most other entertainment and news. In fact, I propose renaming movie theaters "heterosexist indoctrination centers," to more accurately define their true purpose. This is a crude form of social engineering, though most effective. Turn off the machismo spigot, and watch how quickly bisexuality becomes the norm...and as a consequence, respect towards females and queers. Men will no longer feel pressured to produce unwanted babies simply to prove to the public, their manliness and non-gayness. They will no longer be coerced to threaten and bash queers to likewise prove their masculinity.
In fact, I believe that the very root of war is this subliminal current of machismo: all these red-blooded, infuriated males all riled up to fight any culture Uncle Sam perceives as "wimpy" and unamerikan. Just look at how redneck citizens view our European (and Canadian) allies: as a bunch of simpering faggots. Not shown in the mainstream news re. the war on Iraq, is our own soldiers scrawling homophobic graffiti throughout "enemy" territory. Of course, this exacerbates Arabs, because they have proven to be even more gay-hating than the USofA. And so it goes, round and round.
Gays are like the bonobos chimps of the human race. Distribute us in strategic places of government, and we'll really show you how to make love, not war. Brotherly (and sisterly) love. Homosexuals are the tempering force of society, and once we are allowed to breathe free, we will dismantle all forces that seek to rape, pillage, and otherwise decimate what goodness and joy exists in any culture. It's our nature.
But until societies across the world wake up to the very fact that resolving homophobia will also resolve male violence and war, we will continue down this sorry path of terror and Fascism. Even (with rare exception) our most liberal and progressive movements continue to trivialize the utter importance of gay liberation, to their own detriment, and to Amerika's, and the world's.
I nonetheless applaud those still way-too-few media/political/social outlets who are finally waking up, including AlterNet.org. Salud!
Sinqueerly yours,
Zeke Krahlin
--
Lavender-Velvet Revolution
http://www.gay-bible.org
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» RE: It's the homophobia, stupid! - so "real" men are "fag bashers"
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: It's the homophobia, stupid!... BTW
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: It's the homophobia, stupid!... BTW part 2
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: It's the homophobia, stupid!... BTW part 2
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: It's the homophobia, stupid!... BTW
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: It's the homophobia, stupid! - so "real" men are "fag bashers"
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: It's the homophobia, stupid! - Nobody here has defended snuff films,
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: It's the homophobia, stupid! - Nobody here has defended snuff films,
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: It's the homophobia, stupid! - Nobody here has defended snuff films,
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: It's the homophobia, stupid! And Zeke is stupid!
Posted by: vomeggido
» RE: It's the homophobia, stupid! And vomeggido is a bigot!
Posted by: HoboHomo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: uncle charley on Sep 24, 2007 11:59 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article highlights the need for psychological profiles of men who engage in and promote sexual exploitation and women who willingly submit to being degraded and abused.
What kind of mothering and fathering have they had, what kind of homes do they come from? What sort of porn films, magazines, websites were they exposed to as kids? They are not simply products of our culture but of certain kinds of parenting. This would be very useful information.
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Posted by: theguyintheback on Sep 24, 2007 12:05 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anone who agrees to screw a stranger in a bus/van is a dumbass or a sex addict. They had it coming. But they are all acting anyway!!! Are people in horror movies really killing people?
Reading all this makes me see that nothing has changed.
These actions (women and men) in porn will do what they feel they can for the money they are offered... degrading or not. If they can't handle ATM then quit. When making it sometimes actors start laughing, joke around or totally lose balance and slip up....and even give each other stage directions of sorts. I'd like to see what more actors in the industry think about this article.
Porn is a gateway to fantasies. It's amazing what some women end up wanting to have done to them once in the bedroom. I don't know if they were traumatized when young or if they have had loving rewarding relationships but you'd be surprised how many women like the idea of double or triple penetration. Some even like to be dominated, slapped, yelled at...whatever. So to each their own.
Don't buy it or watch it if you can't handle it. But as Americans we are free to watch whatever bullshit porn, bad sitcoms, or dumb game shows we want. It's our own choice of fantasy!!
And if you don't agree with me...I don't care because this is such a waste of time. Changing porn is not going to change bad men or society. This has always been the case and nothing has really changed or will. Sorry.
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Posted by: CaptChurch on Sep 24, 2007 1:06 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
~~~"Suicidal thoughts, up since Katrina, PTSD survey says........"
------->>>"Suicide rate among girls skyrockets 76%, says Centers for Disease Control & Prevention"
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» RE: ~~~S.O.S.~~~MayDay***
Posted by: CaptChurch
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Posted by: doinaheckuvajob on Sep 24, 2007 3:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One thing that's gotten forgotten is corporate money in the role of porn. Now that TimeWarner and big Hotel chains make big profits of off porn on TV in people's homes and hotelrooms, the role of corporate profit in keeping this industry going is another factor to consider.
Is porn demeaning or destructive? I think the comments illustrated my view that is sometimes yes, sometimes no, and getting all this stuff 'out into the open' is the only way we're going to grapple as a society with dealing with abuses and allowing that which is not.
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Posted by: Badger1492 on Sep 24, 2007 4:30 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, and this society also has people who commit violence against children, start unnecessary wars, kill millions in genocide; a society where women kill their own children for no apparent reason. Yes, it is 'difficult' to live in such a society, but just because these things DO occur, it doesn't mean that all or even most of men or women do these things.
The above quote implies that ALL men treat women this way or are capable of it. I don't think so.
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» RE: Not all men.
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: pawndog54 on Sep 24, 2007 7:04 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Porn exists just like fetishes do, because for some people its a turn on. Not just for men, but for women as well.
As to your concerns for our society, Denmark, Holland and Japan have not succumbed to your fears.
A factor in its growth in our country may be more to do with the repression of sex in our society as influenced by the Puritans in history. Even today Europeans laugh at our censorship of a womans breast.
Michael Hansen
www.michaelhansen.us
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» RE: I must be missing something here
Posted by: Robba29
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Posted by: drblack on Sep 24, 2007 7:24 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Men and women do not run out of sex.
There is nothing precious about virginity...look at the labels we have used...A woman's honor...some nutty religious groups still treat this natural thing like it is something rare....it is just sex.
Men should see women as more than a collection of body parts and women should understand that men are programmed to focus on sex ... nature wants people to do one thing ...Have Sex.
Do it. Pornography,prostitution exist because of the dumb constructs people have put on sex.
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» RE: US makes too big a deal about sex...TRUE, but
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: wwittman on Sep 24, 2007 10:35 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like ANY industry, without regulation it runs on greed with no sense of 'decnecy'.
>>But what has become clear to me is that, under the guise of the First Amendment, a huge and powerful porn industrial complex has grown out of control.
Capitalism "works' because it is, and has always been, successfully regulated by government.
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» RE: The LAST thing I want is...
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: theomode on Sep 25, 2007 7:52 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
NO. Getting closer to the source:
Pornography as a mirror shows how men see themselves -- as unable to live up to the paradigm of masculinity.
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Posted by: RGD-5 on Sep 25, 2007 10:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some statistics from the Department of Justice website (number of victims per 1,000):
Year___Rape___Violent Crime
1973___2.5____47.7
1980___2.5____49.4
1990___1.7____44.1
2000___0.6____27.4
2005___0.5____21.0
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» RE: The author starts out the piece with a false premise...
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: HoboHomo on Sep 25, 2007 11:25 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
for you have greatly broken my covenant:
that you should speak for The Angel of Democracy
to every corner of the world.
What have you done, Amerika, spreading fear
of your own self (instead of love for freedom)
to every nation, to every person;
yeah, even unto your own citizens,
that they tremble so before you,
Oh Hand of Satanic Ruin?
Amerika, you are NO LONGER God's country,
for you have broken your covenant with me,
in a most grevious manner.
You have invented A NEW ARROGANCE which hubris
even I have never seen, nor Lucifer ever conceived;
in such unbridled malice of your own loyal
Homophile citizens, WHO ARE ALSO MY ANGELS!
Oh, Amerika, tremble now, for the hour has arrived:
for amber waves of grain to wither under a Great Drought,
for purple mountain majesty to shower pestilence
upon the fruited plain,
and for fiery whirlwinds to level your great cities
that lay parched of spirit and void of compassion.
My hetero Amerikans: return to your homes,
complacent in your gender supremacy,
believing that you are righteous
in your condemnation of homosexuals,
or in your tolerating these citizens
(as long as they don't demand equal treatment
under your laws).
Amerika-Moloch, you ARE hypocrite
unlike any other under the sun,
and your time in this age has come to a close.
You have sealed your own fate:
of a terrible Civil War of many deaths and unholy
destruction.
Vermont shall go insane with rabid homophobia
and rape herself into many pieces;
while Florida burns from political fires,
and sinks into the Atlantic,
her great smoky plume turning all of Mexico into midnight
for eleven dark months.
And all lands in between and west of these two raging
states,
shall likewise be consumed by plagues and madness
of myriad types.
The Great Mississippi shall overflow with the blood
of you hypocrites,
drowning many in your sleep;
and your towns shall stink of your children's putrifying
flesh.
---finis
--
Zeke Krahlin
(Jehovah's Queer Witness)
http://www.gay-bible.org
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Posted by: opeluboy on Sep 25, 2007 7:07 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Get over it.
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» RE: Hate to mention this but...
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Hate to mention this but...
Posted by: opeluboy
» RE: Hate to mention this but...
Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Hate to mention this but...
Posted by: HoboHomo
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Posted by: Baltimoron on Sep 25, 2007 10:29 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I recall this website on anal sex that I googled. I can't recall it offhand, but it can't be that uncommon. But, the author in this guide said something, like having homosexual sex was a way to understand what woman have to endure everyday.
What kind of masculinity is this author trying to put across?
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Posted by: csds49 on Sep 25, 2007 10:54 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Great for Gay Porn
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
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Posted by: Landbaron on Sep 26, 2007 12:00 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: jimidee on Sep 26, 2007 11:11 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Angela Flynn on Sep 26, 2007 1:13 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I embrace my sexuality, but I refuse to be treated as if I am only a body. As far as I can tell men all want a double standard where they are free to have multiple sexual partners, but a woman is trash if she has multiple partners. What they don't get is if they have multiple partners woman have to have them too. Men want a woman who will love them no matter what they do. They don't understand that loving someone is not the same as allowing abuse. Women need to stand up and not take it anymore. It is ok to be alone. I will be until I find a man who will treat me the way every person deserves to be treated. With love and respect.
Woman can live without sex. I'm not so sure men can. Women need to take back our power. Stop putting up with abuse. I took a training on Domestic Violence. I liked how the intructors worded the dynamics of why a woman accepts abuse. They said it is like being in a room where grains of sand fall. One barely notices the sand. Until one is burried too deep to get out. No one wants to be hurt. Woman need to teach themselves the warning signs of an abusive relationship and have a no tolerance stance to abuse.
As I said, It is ok to be alone. It is better than being abused.
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» RE: The Never Ending War
Posted by: Badger1492
» RE: The Never Ending War
Posted by: Joe
» RE: The Never Ending War
Posted by: jackl2400
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Posted by: Landbaron on Sep 26, 2007 1:31 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: CaptChurch on Sep 26, 2007 2:38 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[It works, which is the only point, Eh?!]
http://CaptainChurch.proboards57.com
http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=24582
http://b4.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?user=ChurchCaptain
http://groups.google.com/group/TeenAnswers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BestTeenAnswers
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Posted by: Landbaron on Sep 27, 2007 8:42 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Joe on Sep 27, 2007 5:44 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Men Are Shaped By Women Not Porn
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Men Are Shaped By Women Not Porn
Posted by: Badger1492
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Posted by: Landbaron on Sep 29, 2007 11:53 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: cbmtrx on Sep 30, 2007 2:37 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can understand how women might feel like men only see them as "things to be penetrated". Just as a cat sees a mouse only as a "thing to be caught". (There is nothing derogatory in this comparison: cats and humans are both mammals.) But consider for a moment that in physiological terms women ARE penetrated, and men ARE the penetrators. This puts men in a diabolically tenuous moral position: we don't aim to be aggressors, yet naturally we must behave as aggressors if we are to successfully sow our seed. On top of that, our brains are wired to release those delicious pleasure chemicals every time we contemplate sex.
This is all very biological and scientific etcetera, and some of you are no doubt tsk tsking, but don't for a minute think that we humans are more than a few cave paintings away from our evolutionary roots.
We are a civilization, true, and as such men (and women) must suppress their desires, and prevent themselves from acting out some of their fantasies. Enter: pornography.
SOME of the sex acts described are, in my modest opinion, unfairly characterized as degrading to women. I just don't agree with this. Some of these acts may, on the face of it, appear rather less than civilized, but since when is sex civilized??? Sex is a romp. Sex is a workout. Sex is, according to Seinfeld, "like a car accident". It is a releasing of energy. No, where some see degradation, I see an intense, fiery, passionate, and CONSENSUAL union of two people.
What next? Are we to become the Bush administration and redefine "sex" simply to meet our purposes?
But pornography has its darker side (show me something human-made that doesn't). Some people take things too far; they push the limits, get more extreme--as is done with everything--until the limits have been explored. Then we go back and reinvent ourselves; find new joys in other areas. How else do you explain the explosion of nude art and softcore erotic photography websites in recent years? Was this simply an untapped market all that time?
But what is this notion of humiliation? Obviously I don't form a part of the percentage of men who apparently find satisfaction in belittling a woman during sex, but that should not imply that the depiction of all sexual acts--pornography--is, de facto, humiliating. Nor should it imply that all men who may engage in those acts are, de facto, the humiliators.
The rise of "amateur sex" videos should give one pause. While not generally as extreme as some of the for-profit website porn farms, SOME of the sexual behaviors that have been vilified as degrading to women are apparently alive and well, and form what, by all appearances, looks to be a normal and healthy part of "real people's" sexual lives. I'm sure some of it is fake, but don't spin this and tell me it's all fake.
Again, this is a physiological reality: men can only ever appear as the aggressors, and women can only ever appear as the victims. The man is the "giver" and the woman is the "receiver". In some cases women truly ARE the victims, but my view is that in their quest for absolute and perfect equality (rightly so) women perceive the sex act itself--really, no matter what form it may take--as inherently degrading.
It's like going #2 in the bathroom--imagine the horror of someone walking in just as you were wiping? Would that not also be humiliating and degrading? I see these in the same light.
Consider: What if the woman was the "giver"? How would that change perception? Gay men could, indeed, enlighten us here.
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» RE: Your take on this is enlightening...thanks. nm
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: chomsky on Sep 22, 2007 12:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
- When you see the thumbnail of a movie of a crying or gagged woman "raped" by several men, how can you tell if it is fiction and not a real rape with a real victim? You can't.
- Anyway, why would someone want to see such sick movies? What is so fun about seeing someone cry/suffer?
- Why is kiddie porn (often very extreme with rapes) in japanese manga (cartoons) tolerated so easily? The only positive thing is that it seems not to influence them in reality.
- Where is the fun in todays movies? Where are my damn "old-style" erotic/porn movies; I can only find "bunny-style" "butcher-style" scenes. Even women directors these days film these meat-festivals that have no fun/sensuality. It's like watching donkey sex for god sake!!!!
So, as we have junk-food, we have junk porn... Too bad.
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