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Why Men Should Be Included in Abortion Discussion
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One of them was for Cody,* my friend's bewildered boyfriend. She wanted nothing to do with him, though he was trying his 17-year-old-teenage-boy best to be supportive; she said it felt like Cody had done this to her. I understood, but I also knew that he must be -- as she was -- holding it together all day, crying alone at night, utterly confused. Though raised Catholic, he too thought an abortion was the right decision, but had no role in the ritual of that choice.
I think of Cody from time to time and wonder what he's doing now. I recently heard a rumor that he's gone on to study theology. I can't help but wonder if that decision was in some way informed by the conversation he was never able to have -- with her, with friends, with mentors, with his version of god -- about his experience of abortion.
After all, where is a pro-choice man who wants guidance, community or counseling around his experience of abortion to turn?
In the public sphere, the most vocal mention of men and abortion comes in virulently unsympathetic forms: government officials' ethically indefensible, not to mention totally impractical, attempt to chip away at Roe v. Wade with consent laws (see the recent Ohio bill), or pro-life propaganda dressed up as counseling for men. It is no surprise that our pathetic excuse for sex education in this country makes little mention of abortion and/or the ways in which men might be affected by it.
In the clinical sphere, already spread-too-thin therapists and medical staff pay little attention to men's involvement. Ninety-eight percent of clinic counselors are female, so a man hoping to discuss his feelings with a peer is largely out of luck.
In the most comprehensive study of men and abortion to date, Arthur Shostak, a professor of sociology at Drexel University, who describes himself as "unswervingly pro-choice," found that men's single greatest concern was the well-being of their sex partner and, further, that a majority of men would like to accompany their partners throughout the procedure. Most clinics don't allow men beyond the waiting room, something Shostak says is evidence that many think of men as "coat holders and drivers."
And in the private sphere, men struggle to reach out to one another about their experiences for a variety of reasons. A stigma against abortion overall remains (more oppressive in some geographies than others, of course), often keeping both women and their partners silent with even the closest of friends and family. In the same way that contemporary men are still groping for ways to be honest with one another about all things sexual -- abuse, orientation, dysfunction -- they just don't seem to have the language to talk about their abortion experiences.
Few young men have fathers or mentors who have authentically modeled opening up about the very common experience of unexpected pregnancy. Wisecracks and silence are still the norm, despite the fact that, according to the Guttmacher Institute, about half of American couples have experienced an unintended pregnancy, and at current rates, more than one-third (35 percent) of women will have had an abortion by age 45.
The pro-choice movement, and feminists in general, seem to have historically shied away from the difficult but imperative task of involving men in conversations about abortion. It is understandable that the movement has been weary; no hot-button issue brings out more manipulation than this one. But it is time that feminists' commitment to equality, as well as the quality of both women and men's lives, trumps their fear that acknowledging men's hardships will only serve as fodder for pro-life spin doctors. There must be a way to talk about men's perspectives and experiences without compromising women's bodies.
Men speak out
Jack*, a 28-year-old male, describes the abortion that his girlfriend went through a few years ago as "a really, really tough decision, but one that we made together, as partners." Though he looks back on the experience with some sadness, he also sees it as a pivotal moment in the development of his own identity as a man. "The experience really made me man up -- get out of debt, figure out a job, and get my shit together, generally," Jack reflects. "It made me realize that, A, I did want to have a kid someday and, B, that the woman I was with is who I wanted to have a kid with."
Jack looked to close friends for support -- one male, one female -- but felt somewhat abandoned while actually in the clinic waiting room: "I remember sitting there feeling terrified. I would have appreciated someone to talk to who had been through that moment."
On the political level, Jack is unabashedly pro-choice. He believes that neither men, nor other women, should have any legal right to dictate what a woman does with her own body. But he does feel that the missing dialogue about men and abortion is detrimental: "If guys were talking about their experiences more it would bring added depth and a new understanding to this complicated issue." Jack and his partner were married last year.
Not all guys report experiencing such a spirit of communication, support and reflection throughout difficult abortions. Philip*, a 27-year-old, regrets his inability to handle the significance of his girlfriend's abortion. He received little support at the time and still -- years later -- feels like he hasn't truly processed what he went through.
After his girlfriend determined that she was, indeed, pregnant, there was little discussion over the options. Philip described it more as an automatic attitude of "OK, let's take care of it," meaning schedule an abortion immediately.
In the days leading up to the abortion, Philip found himself incapable of acknowledging the complexity of what was about to take place, instead relying on humor to cope with what he now sees as fairly deep feelings. He explains, "I frequently tried to inject humor into the situation, something I know wasn't appreciated by my partner. In the days between the positive test and the abortion, I grew somewhat detached and distant. I wanted to be present emotionally, but I was overwhelmed."
Philip's partner determined who was "allowed to know" -- limited to a few close friends and her mother. He turned to these close friends, but found "his boys" as ill-equipped as he was to handle the depth of the situation. Instead of gaining insight into how to support his partner through serious circumstances, he became even more prone to make light of it. "There were times when I minimized its importance and made it out to be no big deal," Philip remembers. "I thought that might make it easier for both of us. I thought acknowledging the magnitude of the event would only add to the stress and sadness."
Philip and his partner have since split up. He sums it up: "My emotional absence stings me to this day, since it was such a significant ordeal in both of our lives. My distance and lack of grace made my partner feel alone, and that hurts."
As more brave voices -- like Jack's and Philip's -- make their way into both alternative and mainstream media, perhaps boys and men can find a way to enter into dialogue with one another, and with their partners, about how abortion has affected their lives.
There is a growing, though still inadequate, movement to address men's experiences of abortion. At the forefront is Shostak, author of Men and Abortion, Losses, Lessons, and Loves, which is based on a survey involving more than a thousand men who responded to questionnaires in the waiting rooms of 30 clinics located in 18 states. Other books are not explicitly aimed at but address men, such as Unspeakable Losses: Understanding the Experience of Pregnancy Loss, Miscarriage & Abortion, by Kim Kluger-Bell, and The Choices We Made, by Angela Bonavoglia. Online, pro-choice men can find support at www.menandabortion.com, a site founded in 2006 and still in development.
There is a price to both men and women when men don't feel supported or safe to talk about their experiences with a partner's abortions. Men can be pushed further into anxious masculinity, subconsciously convinced that if the world acts like their feelings don't matter, they'll just pretend not to have them. Women are then burdened with both the physical responsibility of the abortion and the entire emotional responsibility of processing what it means.
If both men and women feel like they have a role in the procedure and healing -- however that's interpreted by partners, depending on their spiritual and/or political beliefs -- we will be healthier as a whole. Perhaps men, freed from the shackles of silence, will also be more prone to help out in the important work of keeping Roe v. Wade intact and abortion safer and less stigmatized for everyone.
*Names listed are pseudonyms.
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Posted by: EasterBunny on Sep 6, 2007 12:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' tho
Posted by: tweedster
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
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» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: EJ
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: LindaB
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' tho
Posted by: bgeerdes
» "Minority" doesn't mean, in a sociological or political sense, being in the "minority" of population
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: "Minority" doesn't mean, in a sociological or political sense, being in the "minority" of population
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: "Minority" doesn't mean, in a sociological or political sense, being in the "minority" of popula
Posted by: bgeerdes
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: LindaB
» This is a fluff issue - a domestic political circus for the disenfranchised
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Good the elegant voice of reason
Posted by: ray burchard
» Domestic political circus - how many children died due to US sanctions in Iraq?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Domestic political circus
Posted by: ray burchard
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Posted by: talkville on Sep 6, 2007 1:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If secret, then the male involved was not informed of the girlfriend's condition. It was a decision she arrived at autonomously, as is her right.
I agree wholeheartedly that the conversation about abortion must include males as well as females, friends, families all the way up to general discussions of articles such as this. It is highly important, however, not to conflate and confuse such a conversation in its concrete particularities and in more theoretical circumstances. In other words, the "abortion issue" ought not to be confused with a particular woman's existential decisions when encountering an unwanted pregnancy. As a citizen, she has the right to speak or not about the situation, even including whoever she had relations with that brought the pregnancy, as she has the right to decide on what to do about it.
The ISSUE of abortion can and should and is being discussed, conversed about, debated, yelled about, and more and has been not only in our own times but in other historical periods. The problem comes when OTHERS decide, force, oppress and legislate upon a woman in those particular circumstances. It's a matter of social discussion and conversation which, the more fully it is discussed the more fully it influences each one of us to consider it and thus arrive at each of our decisions about it. It might, perhaps, be called responsible civility and development towards a fuller and more just Polis. We must remember, though, that no citizen has the right to infringe on the liberty of another; and laws which alienate a portion of a citizen's body (for instance, the reproductive organs) and rule separately over this portion, in effect dis-member a citizen and thus have severe problems with justice. All the aforementioned assuming, of course, a republic which it must be granted is very difficult to discern these days.
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» RE: Validities and levels
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Validities and levels
Posted by: talkville
» Are we really ready for this discussion?
Posted by: cvstoner
» RE: Are we really ready for this discussion?
Posted by: talkville
» RE: Validities and levels
Posted by: lisaisalefty
» The flip side of liberty
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: The flip side of liberty
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: JDBishop5 on Sep 6, 2007 3:27 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you!
Slightly off subject, do women have an unlimited right to have an abortion if they have consensual sex with their husband? Does the father have any rights in the situation?
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» RE: Hamish
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» RE: Hamish
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» RE: Hamish
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» RE: Hamish
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: mviscid
» But PirateJesus
Posted by: clairededuras
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: fork
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: fork
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: aphrodite
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: DaBear...
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: clairededuras
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: phindrup
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Posted by: Jim on Sep 6, 2007 4:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Excuse me?
Posted by: J. Bo
» RE: difficulties
Posted by: DeeOhGee
» Give Men a VETO on the Abortion?
Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: Give Men a VETO on the Abortion?
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Give Men a VETO on the Abortion?
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Give Men a VETO on the Abortion?
Posted by: fork
» RE: difficulties
Posted by: clairededuras
» RE: difficulties
Posted by: LindaB
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Posted by: Q30 on Sep 6, 2007 4:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you really think that most men are decent human beings, then you kind of wonder why there seems to be so much resistance to the idea 'round these parts.
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» RE: This is remarkable
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: This is remarkable
Posted by: Markson
» RE: This is remarkable
Posted by: Q30
» Introducing: Non Sequitur
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Introducing: Non Sequitur
Posted by: Q30
» "You did a great job of proving my point."
Posted by: pdxstudent
» pdx is dead wrong
Posted by: EasterBunny
» Get Your Categories Straight
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Get Your Categories Straight
Posted by: EasterBunny
» Either/Or
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: ither/Or
Posted by: Q30
» RE: "You did a great job of proving my point."
Posted by: Q30
» RE: Introducing: Non Sequitur
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: This is remarkable
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: This is remarkable
Posted by: Q30
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Posted by: Markson on Sep 6, 2007 5:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Idealism is one thing, basic rights is another.
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Idealism is one thing, basic rights is another.
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Idealism is one thing, basic rights is another.
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Idealism is one thing, basic rights is another.
Posted by: TassieDevil
» Actually...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Actually...
Posted by: TassieDevil
» See my comments further down in response to pdxstudent...
Posted by: mjabele
» A (Mr.) Spock query
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Idealism is one thing, basic rights is another.
Posted by: LindaB
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Posted by: youngdem on Sep 6, 2007 6:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Good points, but.
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» RE: Good points, but.
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Good points, but.
Posted by: Tombo
» RE: Good points, but.
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Good points, but.
Posted by: DaBear
» Why Fuck Around?
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Why Fuck Around?
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: Why Fuck Around?
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Why Fuck Around?
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: Good points, but.
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: Good points, but.
Posted by: youngdem
» RE: Good points, but.
Posted by: TassieDevil
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Posted by: BobS on Sep 6, 2007 6:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I certainly supported the legalization of abortion, but I really didn't think deeply about the issue.
More recently, I became friends with some of the women who worked in Chicago's underground abortion group "Jane". When women came for their "Jane" abortions, they were sometimes accompanied by their male partners who would wait outside while the procedure was being done.
That got me to thinking more about the role of men in the whole process. What if a woman wanted her male partner to hold her hand while she undergoing the abortion? Would that be appropriate?
I certainly held my female partner's hand when she was giving birth. Would it have been so different if she wanted me to hold her hand while terminating a pregnancy?
What if the woman wanted her male partner to accompany her to the in-take screening or initial counseling? Would that be appropriate? Is that being done now?
Should there be a separate counseling for male partners who whose female partner is planning or has undergone abortion?
I do think men need to be more involved in the whole issue of reproductive freedom, but I'm a little short of answers as to how that should happen.
A woman should have the right to choose how much involvement her male partner should have. That's clear to me.
But that does not mean that men who are excluded should not have some place to go to work out their emotions...even if the woman never wants to see them again and their relationship is severed.
Thank you Courtney Martin for beginning a conversation we should began a long time ago.
Bob Simpson
The BobboSphere
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» RE: Thsi article raises more questions than answers
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: This article raises more questions than answers
Posted by: BobS
» RE: This article raises more questions than answers
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Thsi article raises more questions than answers
Posted by: TassieDevil
» Did you read the article?
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Thsi article raises more questions than answers
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: Thsi article raises more questions than answers
Posted by: youngdem
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Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming on Sep 6, 2007 6:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: but selectively
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: but selectively
Posted by: vasumurti
» RE: but selectively
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: but selectively
Posted by: DeeOhGee
» RE: but selectively
Posted by: morticia
» Specifically...
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: ggmurray on Sep 6, 2007 6:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree that the decision to abort an unwanted pregnancy must ultimately be the woman's decision. It's her body after all. Do unto others...
Not including the man in the clinic experience is a missed opportunity. At the very least, some sensitive listening and counsel is in order. Abortions are life-changing experiences, and not just for the fetus.
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» RE: Yes, be with men too
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Yes, be with men too
Posted by: vasumurti
» RE: Yes, be with men too
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Yes, be with men too
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: Yes, be with men too
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Yes, be with men too
Posted by: fork
» Dear Vasumurti
Posted by: clairededuras
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 6, 2007 7:08 AM
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» RE: THER'S MUCH MORE TO THIS
Posted by: ggmurray
» RE: THER'S MUCH MORE TO THIS
Posted by: EasterBunny
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 6, 2007 7:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: cmaciain on Sep 6, 2007 7:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ninety-eight percent of clinic counselors are female, so a man hoping to discuss his feelings with a peer is largely out of luck.
And? So what? Growing up there were very few female doctors, mechanics, etc. Think anyone gave a damn when women said something about that?
The article itself is interesting and provokes conversation. I understand men may want to talk about the experience. Call a counselor. There are plenty who'll talk.
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» Massive hypocrisy, cmaciain
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Massive hypocrisy, cmaciain
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Interesting....
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Interesting....
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: Interesting....
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Interesting....
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: Interesting....
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Interesting....
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Interesting....
Posted by: hellofriends
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Posted by: drblack on Sep 6, 2007 7:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In order to have a free country the government cannot have any say in what people do with themselves.
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» I agree.
Posted by: wheresarah
» RE: I agree.
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: I agree.
Posted by: hellofriends
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Posted by: wheresarah on Sep 6, 2007 7:31 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can understand that it's not an easy subject, but if you bring it up before it's an emergency decision, it just seems like you could take time to think about it more rationally, and be MUCH better prepared if the time comes to actually decide. Also you can find out if you are totally at odds with each other, and if so, it seems best you know this BEFORE it happens.
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» RE: I haven't seen mentioned...
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: I haven't seen mentioned...
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: Axiom69 on Sep 6, 2007 7:43 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: blackfeminista on Sep 6, 2007 7:43 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But it reflects the problem in the mainstream movement, which remains predominantly white and middle class. Women of color-led movements for reproductive justice and abortion rights have ALWAYS included and insisted that men be a part of the dialogue. This doesn't negate a woman's individual choice or control over her own body, but puts that choice within the context of her whole life experience. This wholistic approach has only recently been adopted by the mainstream, and is still very slow to catch on.
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Posted by: doodahman on Sep 6, 2007 8:50 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, having seized total sovereignty over not only their bodies but that of the being inside them, they seem to have little moral grounds to demand that the sperm donor, who has no sovereignty over either the woman or the being inside her, pay for the child.
You want to shred the kid? Go ahead. Shred away. You want to keep it? Fine. You pay to raise it.
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» Typical
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Typical
Posted by: doodahman
» Sex With A Woman Is Not A Right
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: no one is forcing a guy to have sex
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» "Mother Nature demands that a man have sex whenever a woman offers it."
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: "while holding the man fully accountable financially..."
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: "while holding the man fully accountable financially..."
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Typical
Posted by: Gisele
» Not Straight
Posted by: pdxstudent
» I think it's more complicated than you suggest...
Posted by: mjabele
» You've confused 2 seperate issues
Posted by: doopie
» I feel a King Solomon moment coming on here
Posted by: YogiBear
» you started out ok...
Posted by: Ames
» RE: you started out ok...
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Patrick Murfin on Sep 6, 2007 10:03 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I came over to her place for dinner one night, bottle of German white wine in hand. She was crying. “I’m pregnant. I don’t know what to do.” I held her and comforted her. I didn’t ask who the father was. She didn’t volunteer. It was, after all, the lingering twilight of the 60’s.
I was on the staff of the old CHICAGO SEED, the local underground newspaper. I had connections. I knew people who knew people.
Those people were JANE, semi-secret collective of women who defied Illinois law and arranged safe abortions. In later years I got to know names and faces of some of them. They were true heroes in a desperate time.
I helped Ellen get in contact with JANE. They arranged for her to see a cooperating doctor. She had to go alone to the appointment, where she was given a chemical abortificant. I waited for her in her apartment.
The procedure was as safe as possible, but the cramping and pain from the induced miscarriage was serious in Ellen’s case. It lasted three days. I stayed with her the whole time. We were afraid to seek further medical help. Other women had been arrested in hospital emergency rooms.
In the end, the procedure was effective. Ellen recovered. She got on with her life. She went off the next summer on some high adventure and I never saw her again. I got on with my life.
Within a few years, Illinois revised its laws in response to Roe v. Wade and safe abortions in clinical settings became available. JANE dissolved. But I will always remember Ellen’s needless ordeal and will never knowingly allow another woman to suffer so.
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» RE: emembering how it once was
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: emembering how it once was
Posted by: fox1
» RE: emembering how it once was
Posted by: morticia
» RE: emembering how it once was
Posted by: Ames
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Sep 6, 2007 10:12 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
emotions. The real point is Darwinian success [having a child] or
Darwinian failure [being childless], and female power. Of course
evolution translated success and failure into emotions. It had to.
The reality behind the emotions is still success or failure. The
article completely misses the point by talking about teenagers.
Talk about 20-somethings or 30-somethings or 40-somethings and
the female power play: Marry me or I will get an abortion; Buy
me that house you can't quite afford RIGHT NOW or I will get an
abortion.
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» RE: What comes out of a gun is authority. Power comes out of a uterus.
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: What comes out of a gun is authority. Power comes out of a uterus.
Posted by: Gracews
» Stupid female thinking
Posted by: janvdb
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Posted by: Dannyboy on Sep 6, 2007 10:52 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» What, You Mean Like...
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: What, You Mean Like...
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: What, You Mean Like...
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Inclusion or exclussion?
Posted by: EasterBunny
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Posted by: DaBear on Sep 6, 2007 11:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've observed that both times when an unintended pregnancy was my (our--mine and my female partner(s)) reality, the circumstances and experiences were very different. Both times I was confident in my own feelings and both times I was decidedly alone and ultimately had no say in things... I was just grateful and lucky the outcome was one I could life with. Both times I was so fearful of having too much influence that my partner had to drag my feelings from my lips and both times those feelings were used as weapons against me. But both times the one element that was the same, other than the being alone emotionally, was the very profound sense of myself as a reproductive being and how much I resented and felt frustrated that I had no authentically reliable and sexually expressive method of preventing a pregnancy when I (or we) wanted to--I was and am a committed partner, I never wanted to cause my partner stress, damage or pain. Both times faulty condoms or condom-related accidents were involved. A condom is a piss-poor device, while better than nothing, it's not as good as a male pill would be (although two of my friends are dad's thanks to the female pill, so, I guess nothing's as good as a vasectomy). Ultimately I got the snip because I realized it wasn't worth the stress and I wasn't enjoying sex anyway because of that stress. Ecologically, I'd already contributed to overpopulation by two kids and I have mixed feelings about that, even as I father my wanted offspring and enjoy that privilege a great deal. But the way people talk about the issue and the utter lack of emotional literacy in their discourse, I get why most men stay silent. Even saying what I've said here... it's the first time I've said it aloud. And it's probably the wrong place too, given the vitriol I've witnessed on Alternet's comment areas.
I'm a broadband wired human being, I feel things on more levels than most people ever acknowledge exist. I know from two decades of talking with men on very deep emotional levels that I'm not the only man who is conscious about his reproductive self and what that means, and it's not limited to the artistic types like me. It's nice that at least one woman understands the need for men to be included in this issue, and I'm grateful to the one commentor who very wisely pointed out that doing so is going to require men talking and being heard and men listening and not talking, or talking differently, depending on the discourse level required along the way between the personal in-the-moment experiences where men live as individuals and as partners, to the level of legal or public discourse. Both are very true. And, I'm grateful to Bob who pointed out that we men have a lot of work to do with our brothers on this.
But, I not holding my breath that men will be welcome as partners in this discussion or process, until long, long after patriarchy has finally gone the path of the dinosaur.
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» RE: A worthy goal
Posted by: jmoore
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Posted by: Crazy H on Sep 6, 2007 11:44 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
0% of legal rights to decide whether the fetus is aborted or not, 0% right to determine how said child is raised and yet bears 90% of the financial burden.
I became a father at age 17, when my girlfriend's mother stopped her from taking birth control. My girlfriend neglected to tell me that little detail. We eventually broke up, and I spent the next 18 years paying child support for a child raised by another man - a man I disapproved of.
My child's mother decided to move to another state, and I had no say. My child was sent to a southern baptist church while his mother 'lived in sin' with a drug dealer. Again, I had no say in the matter.
But I did shell out half my salary for all that time.
I'm all for equal reproductive rights for women, but I sincerely doubt that they'd be willing to give them up.
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» RE: Do the math
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Do the math
Posted by: Crazy H
» faulty math
Posted by: ezilla
» Discussion or counselling does not = having a say. n/m
Posted by: fork
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Posted by: tfinn on Sep 6, 2007 12:16 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Another option!
Posted by: ray burchard
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Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Sep 6, 2007 1:49 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: mick3
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: mick3
Posted by: EasterBunny
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Posted by: fox1 on Sep 6, 2007 2:51 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How many doctors and nurses have quit performing abortions because they have dislocated shoulders pulling arms and legs apart from torsos? Nurses have walked out after being forced to throw remains of babies into garbage disposals. Don't kill any terrorists, but by all means inject saline solution into tiny lungs? You people are sick, demented bastards. I pray that God has mercy.
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» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: fox1
» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: fox1
» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: Ames
» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: morticia
» For the fruits of the Spirit
Posted by: jaby
» Such pleasant language from such a God Fearing Christian
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Such pleasant language from such a God Fearing Christian
Posted by: fox1
» fox1, you murdering bastard!
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» Abstinence is Murder
Posted by: janvdb
» RE: Abstinence is Murder
Posted by: fox1
» RE: sorry about f bomb
Posted by: fox1
» RE: sorry about f bomb
Posted by: jaby
» RE: sorry about f bomb
Posted by: fox1
» RE: sorry about f bomb
Posted by: jaby
» RE: sorry about f bomb
Posted by: fox1
» RE: sorry about f bomb
Posted by: jaby
» RE: sorry ...don't waste your time
Posted by: OhioPatriot
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Babushka on Sep 6, 2007 3:27 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, and I see the stalking Pro-Life Swift-Boaters are lurking about this ridiculus editorial, as they do...
Come on, Alternet! I thought this was news ala Indie!!!!!!! Geez, no wonder the Demos lost the farm last round if this article represents What They Worry About.....
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» RE: You're kidding, right??????
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: You're kidding, right??????
Posted by: Babushka
» RE: You're kidding, right??????
Posted by: Ames
» your body
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: your body
Posted by: Babushka
» RE: your body
Posted by: hellofriends
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Posted by: cocozane on Sep 6, 2007 5:15 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: Q30
» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: Whitecliff
» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: cocozane
» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: Arlene
» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: Babushka
» "Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited"
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: "Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited"
Posted by: cocozane
» In some vampire stories,
Posted by: hurricane hugo
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Posted by: luzmejor on Sep 6, 2007 5:20 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't it the person whose body has become subject to likely and unwanted future dangers who would naturally have that right to decide?
Most men involved with a woman do make an effort to help their partners in whatever ways they can. Actually, even slight acquaintances of such women are happy to do whatever they can to respond to girls and women during difficult periods like these.
In my opinion, what bothers many about abortion is that it raises the personal question of whether they were a wanted or unwanted child. There wouldn't be any such questions if abortion fantasies and myths did not include such a lot of cultural prejudices against women and girls as an entire class of discriminated human beings.
Certain social and religious cults have actually climbed the ladder to financial success by pretending to "help" such women in distress. What I find remarkable is that they are the very people who are engaged in causing and promoting all that emotional distress in the first place!
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Sep 6, 2007 6:57 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: no way in hell. my body, my decision.
Posted by: vasumurti
» Vasumurti
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» overpopulation and global ecology
Posted by: vasumurti
» "Choice" versus rights
Posted by: vasumurti
» RE: "Choice" versus rights
Posted by: morticia
» RE: "Choice" versus rights
Posted by: clairededuras
» RE: no way in hell. my body, my decision.
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: no way in hell. my body, my decision.
Posted by: OhioPatriot
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Sep 6, 2007 7:05 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
EVERY SINGLE TIME.
And if there's an "accident," it's still her decision.
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» RE: Men-if you want to be involved in reproductive decisions:
Posted by: vasumurti
» Quid pro quo veggiegrrrl: Women-if you want to be involved in reproductive decisions:
Posted by: Whitecliff
» Whitecliff...agree completely
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Sep 6, 2007 9:24 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you don't give a hoot about that vote, then don't expect them to give a hoot about your cause de' celeb, either.
Same with women.
Gender-neutral, as always...duh?
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» RE: Lol. Whether men are included in the discussion is irrelevant.
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: angryyoungwoman on Sep 6, 2007 10:00 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I once talked to a man about abortion . . .
Posted by: EasterBunny
» angryyoungwoman = life denier
Posted by: Whitecliff
» RE: angryyoungwoman = life denier
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: angryyoungwoman = life denier
Posted by: LindaB
» RE: angryyoungwoman = life denier
Posted by: cocozane
» RE: angryyoungwoman = life denier
Posted by: angryyoungwoman
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Whitecliff on Sep 7, 2007 1:36 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, condoms suck. Men hate them, and women hate them too. They don't even work correctly half of the time, and they cause a loss of sensation for both genders...they often cause guys to lose their erection, and for women they aren't too great either because the 'skin on skin' action is lost. Condoms =worst idea ever.
So, the moral of the story is try to have kids responsibly...if they aren't concieved in a responsible manner by responsible people that respect each other and are seeking to build a long-term relationship for the sake of said child(ren), it's probably best to abort it.
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» Whitecliff - unnecessary evil
Posted by: mjglow
» Whitecliff-disagree completely
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Whitecliff-disagree completely
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Whitecliff-disagree completely
Posted by: OhioPatriot
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Posted by: Caesar77 on Sep 7, 2007 3:48 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Caesar
Posted by: clairededuras
» RE: Caesar
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: Cruella on Sep 7, 2007 5:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But what about the women who have been raped? Should we call the rapist and ask if he wants to start a family? The scared, frightened, isolated women, under pressure from an extended family, unsupported, victims of domestic violence, virtual slaves in their own homes. Should we step in with aggressive new legislation and bully THESE women into the hands of the very people who got them into this predicament in the first place?
There is a similar thing here in the UK to push to tell teenage girl's parents if they ask for advice about contraception. It's just as counter-productive.
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» RE: That was the most stupid response i've read in a long time
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: That was the most stupid response i've read in a long time
Posted by: LindaB
» RE: That was the most stupid response i've read in a long time
Posted by: Cruella
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Posted by: mroche1 on Sep 7, 2007 6:18 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: my thoughts
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: my thoughts
Posted by: LindaB
» RE: my thoughts
Posted by: clairededuras
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Posted by: akema_05 on Sep 7, 2007 6:17 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It's still up to Women
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: It's still up to Women
Posted by: Babushka
» RE: It's still up to Women
Posted by: cocozane
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Posted by: janvdb on Sep 7, 2007 8:44 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well.
Is this what the author is working up to?
Bottom line, men want to control what happens -- some of them want to force women they don't even know to carry the child and others want to force women to abort. It's not pretty, what you see when you open the lid on what men have to say about abortion, which is probably the reason (which the author has missed) why this is discussed so little.
I have thought about this. I strongly believe that every man should be 100% responsible for 100% of the cost of 100% of his kids, that our child support and paternity systems are broken, that children are being cheated and that men get off far too easily.
This is probably mostly due to the old bait-and-switch. He wants a kid all right, so long as he doesn't have to actually deal with it. That's the woman's job. So, he's nice to you long enough to get you preggers, then he splits.
However, there are many cases of women insisting on keeping a pregnancy despite the fact that the father responsibly and blatantly tells her that he doesn't want a child. He gets stuck, so I suppose he doesn't feel a lot of desire to help the kid.
These women are stupid. They are shortchanging their kids and foisting a bunch of poorly-educated, under-cared-for, poverty-scarred kids on us. No father, no money, no chance.
This is how we get a 30% high school drop out rate. These kids are losers from day one.
Anyway, I think that while no one should ever be able to force a woman to have an abortion, there should be a process whereby a man could force a woman to give a child up to adoption, if the process is completed and she is notified of this during the first trimester. A process whereby a father could declare a woman an unfit mother before she becomes one. Because she does not have a willing father arranged for that child, which really should be a minimum requirement for a fit mother. To arrange for support. Or, don't become a mother.
If she doesn't want to bear a child and give it up, she needs to be aware of his position early enough to have an abortion.
Men shouldn't be having sex with women they can't keep track of well enough to know whether or not she is pregnant well within the first trimester. Didn't know? You're stuck because you were obviously being heedless.
I know this will attract a lot of disagreement, but this is a disagreeable area of human behavior and there is no good solution.
When two idiots procreate . . .
Jan VanDenBerg
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» RE: Should unwilling men be able to insist that women give a baby up?
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Should unwilling men be able to insist that women give a baby up?
Posted by: Babushka
» We're not Goddesses
Posted by: clairededuras
» RE: Should unwilling men be able to insist that women give a baby up?
Posted by: LindaB
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Posted by: clairededuras on Sep 7, 2007 11:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mtnprivy on Sep 7, 2007 12:05 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is an awesome responsibility for a woman to share her body with another human on that level. When adults share their bodies for a few minutes, or in my case an hour or two (ha ha) then that is awesome too! Like another post said, priviledge comes with responsibility. Abortions occur for the petiest of reasons. . . like your income ain't that good. Is money all that life is about?
Thank God I am eye to eye with my wife on this matter! If so many of you are so egocentric to turn so quickly to an abortion, then you should seriously consider just learning to masterbate, or else grow up! Hats off to the author for opening the door to such an unPC subject!
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» "the pettiest of reasons..."
Posted by: hurricane hugo
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Posted by: Caesar77 on Sep 7, 2007 4:48 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I know it may take some work,
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: I know it may take some work,
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: YogiBear on Sep 7, 2007 10:08 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is it people who say "I pray that ..." always make it sound like a condemnation. As for me, I don't believe it that kind of God, but if he exists, I'm pretty sure people who claim to be Christians who are all Old Testament and no love are all gonna burn.
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Posted by: jparsons on Sep 7, 2007 10:32 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
satisfaction. Neither men nor women are able to handle the
subject well (without attacking someone else) when it comes to the crunch.
There are a small number of abortion facts that chase themselves around a sad logic circle, and a seemingly infinite number of opinions about which facts are most important
(thereby implying the correct action).
In an unwanted pregnancy situation, there isn't a correct
action. All you can do is hope that whatever decision is made
by whichever parties are involved doesn't result in unendurable
pain. Oh, and perhaps not play too much of the blame game, eh?
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Posted by: odcherenow on Sep 8, 2007 6:51 AM
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Posted by: TassieDevil on Sep 9, 2007 3:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By Clair Weaver
September 09, 2007 06:00am
SUSPICIOUS fathers are fuelling a surge in the number of DNA paternity tests secretly being performed on children in Australia.
Thousands of men who suspect their partners of infidelity are ordering checks on their sons and daughters to establish whether they are biologically related.
They send swabs taken from their child's mouth, old toothbrushes, used cotton buds, fingernails and hair samples to laboratories for testing.
Between 15 and 20 per cent come back with a negative result, meaning those involved find out they are not related, according to laboratories.
The trend for secret testing through online companies without consent has sparked ethical concerns for the emotional wellbeing of children and fathers who discover they are not related.
DNA Bio Services managing director Gary Miller told The Sunday Telegraph suspicion was the main factor driving people to arrange tests.
"About 80 per cent would be fathers who want to check their child is actually theirs.
"Ten years ago, there were about 200 DNA tests a year done in Australia, but now we would see 5000.
"The growth has been phenomenal."
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Posted by: ekipnrut on Sep 9, 2007 11:56 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
could NOT have been arrived at without the contribution of the male partner. In the case of rape or incest ,the abortion option should be absolutely available...no ifs...no ands...no buts. In the event that the pregnancy presents a GENUINE medical threat to the woman....same answer. ANYTHING ELSE...if a woman can fuck a guy...she can sit and talk with him when the rubber hits the road, so to speak, with an unintended pregnancy. In this case the problem, obviously,arises when one wants the baby and the other doesn't.
I think that one approach would be to establish as a matter of law that the partner who wants the baby should be able to
go into court and have the dispute determined by a judge with
an underlying (rebuttable) presumption in favor of life. In other words, the burden of proof would be on the one who wants to abort. In ALL those cases resulting in the arrival of the 'baby' :O) , the financial responsibility would be totally 50/50. Split right down the middle. End story.
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» RE: A little clarification of what I propose(d).........
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: When a woman VOLUNTARILY opens her legs ,she perforce relinquishes absolute ...
Posted by: Ames
» RE: When a woman VOLUNTARILY opens her legs ,she perforce relinquishes absolute ...
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: However my main contention is............
Posted by: ekipnrut
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Posted by: Donna_Darko on Sep 10, 2007 12:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then women get blamed for being sluts who murder babies.
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» RE: Not to worry.........
Posted by: ekipnrut
» Say what
Posted by: Donna_Darko
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Posted by: daddyo on Sep 10, 2007 9:39 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This all seems to be viewed as quite noble by a number of the respondents here, who appear to be conflating patriarchal history with every single man out there. I am one man, not the history of men or the history of humankind. I am one man, one human being, who is very much a part of the situation if I have had sex with a woman who becomes pregnant as a result. Yet somehow the question of whether I will now have a child or not is not going to involve me except insofar as I want to support the woman no matter what she decides. This is progress?
By the way, my wife (then my girlfriend) became pregnant some years ago, and she decided unilaterally to abort (before even telling me she was pregnant, much less talking about it). I believe that was wrong, but I concurred in her decision and accompanied her to the clinic in order to support her and share in owning the decision (since it is what I wanted at the time--it would not have been fair or decent to put it all on her). We now have a son that we both wanted to have, and he is wonderful. Sometimes I wonder who the other child would have been. It bothers me that I was party to an abortion (helped create the situation for it, and wanted it, at least compared to the alternative), and it bothers me that the decision was made without me. It just so happened that I concurred, but if I hadn't it would have made no difference. And yet if the decision had been the other way, I would have been expected by those who approve of this article to "man up" and meet my responsibility (I believe I would have). At your service, dear...
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Posted by: secret33.com on Sep 12, 2007 6:28 AM
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Posted by: letsreason on Sep 12, 2007 7:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your postion is based off "a basic human right". Are basic human rights available for everyone in this situation, mother-father-child or only to those that we relativistically choose to apply them to.
It seems a little cold to have such an impersonal position towards the father & child.
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Posted by: felixcommi on Sep 13, 2007 10:21 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no conceivable scenario where men could exercise any agency in abortion matters without imposing their beliefs or desires upon the woman who ultimately bears all the physical burden and a significantly greater emotional burden.
Until I grow ovaries and a uterus and have to face the prospect of spending 9 months where i sporadically vomit, experience hormonal reactions inducing rage, depression and a wide plethora of negative effects, as well as the potentiality of rearing a child without the capacity or support to provide them with a decent quality of life, then I have no right to have a voice or agency in these matters.
None. Zero. A big fat irrefutable zilch, unless of course women don't deserve 100% control over their bodies, their physical and mental health, and their quality of life.
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» RE: How Does (a) MAN Effectuate His Agency In Abortion Matters?
Posted by: ekipnrut
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Posted by: Camilla Cracchiolo on Sep 14, 2007 10:52 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I talked to maybe 5000 women over the years about why they were having abortions. About half the time, it was because the man they were with didn't want anything to do with being a father. Which kind of ended the debate for the woman about whether she wanted or didn't want to have a baby: she didn't want to do it alone and that was that.
Then there were women who got pregnant from one night stands, or drunk in bars, or once in a while, rape. They didn't even know how to reach the man involved. I once counseled an Asian woman who was in an arranged marriage, whose husband forbade her to use any birth control and essentially forced the pregnancy on her. THAT was an interesting discussion, focusing a lot on what method of contraception would be easiest to hide from a man who essentially thought he owned this woman.
About 10% of the time, the man came with the woman and stayed with her through the whole thing. I always liked that. Those were the really decent guys of the world. Probably another 10 or 20% of men sat down with their partners and talked it all out and were sad but just didn't come to the clinic.
BTW, we were a feminist clinic (Feminist Women's Health Center, right in the name,) and we were one of the few clinics that did permit a woman's partner in the procedure room with her. The decision was up to the woman, however. The only place we didn't let men go with the women was the aftercare (recovery) room because some of the other women there might be in states of undress, or might not want to see a man while in pain.
We also explained the procedure in women only groups (women only because some women feel inhibited asking graphic questions in front of men and also so women there alone could talk to and support one another while waiting). But then we usually talked to the guy separately and answered his questions.
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Posted by: Camilla Cracchiolo on Sep 14, 2007 11:44 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My Dad was not around. He was in the middle of a nasty custody fight but he didn't live there or help day to day.
My mom was a crazy violent wet-brained drunk, who got institutionalized 3 months after my abortion. The state FINALLY stepped in THEN in 1971 and made us all wards of the court. But at the time, I was trying to hold the family together (not very well, mind you, at 14 with no adult guidance, but I did try to make sure my brothers and sisters got to school every day before I left. All while mama dear was dead drunk on the couch.)
I was white, my boyfriend was black. Neither of our families were happy about that. His mother was not stepping up to take the kid and my mother was (literally) homicidal (a couple of years later she tried to kill one of my brothers in his sleep. Fortunately, in our house he had learned to sleep with one eye open.)
Yet my boyfriend pleaded with me 'not to kill his baby'. "It was genocide". So I asked him what he was going to do for a job, how was he going to support this baby he wanted so much and he had no answer. In fact he had no answer at all to anything he could do for the baby. He had a lousy education, no job skills and no chances for even a lousy job: this was Detroit, which was already dying in 1971. No, I should go through labor & delivery, take on the kid, get on welfare or AFDC, drop out of school and devote myself to his offspring. His idea of daddyhood was to put a picture in his wallet and brag about the kid. Not all that different from his own father, who wasn't around to raise him and had several families.
I wanted to finish high school and go to college. I knew I couldn't do that and be a mom, and given my mother's example, I had an idea I'd be a pretty bad mom. (It was not until I was in my late 30s that I think I was qualified to be a good mother. This kind of childhood leaves deep scars.)
I was going to get out of the poverty and mess I was in and NOBODY was going to stop me. I was very smart and I knew I had a way out through education and that was the ONLY way out.
Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, but the boyfriend wanted me to have that kid. If his mother had come forward and said "this is my grandkid, I'll take it and raise it", I *might* have carried to term. I don't know. But she didn't. Her response was to get her son out of town. I think she was mostly worried that I not go after him or her for child support.
I didn't see why I should have to endure anything more than I was already going through dealing with my mother.
Abortion was illegal in Michigan at the time. I went to New York where it had just been legalized. I arranged the call, the pregnancy test (nobody wanted to give me one underage, you would not believe the hoops I went through.) Tried to go to New York by myself but couldn't, so I got the money from my grandma for the abortion and the bus tickets and dragged my drunk mom in tow so she could sign the consent forms.
The abortion itself went very well, with no pain during, although heavy cramps after. I never felt sad or guilty...I just had this enormous feeling of relief. I know some women say their abortion was traumatic, but for me, it was the pregnancy that was traumatic and the abortion was sheer liberation.
Should this jerk, who couldn't even wear a condom and who skipped town, have had a veto over my abortion? Cause he would have vetoed it. Hell NO!
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» Thanks......
Posted by: ekipnrut
Comments are closed-
Posted by: EasterBunny on Sep 6, 2007 12:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' tho
Posted by: tweedster
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: EJ
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: LindaB
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' tho
Posted by: bgeerdes
» "Minority" doesn't mean, in a sociological or political sense, being in the "minority" of population
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: "Minority" doesn't mean, in a sociological or political sense, being in the "minority" of population
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: "Minority" doesn't mean, in a sociological or political sense, being in the "minority" of popula
Posted by: bgeerdes
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: There is no logic in this argument or article. It flies the fact of decades of 'progressive' thought
Posted by: LindaB
» This is a fluff issue - a domestic political circus for the disenfranchised
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Good the elegant voice of reason
Posted by: ray burchard
» Domestic political circus - how many children died due to US sanctions in Iraq?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Domestic political circus
Posted by: ray burchard
Comments are closed-
Posted by: talkville on Sep 6, 2007 1:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If secret, then the male involved was not informed of the girlfriend's condition. It was a decision she arrived at autonomously, as is her right.
I agree wholeheartedly that the conversation about abortion must include males as well as females, friends, families all the way up to general discussions of articles such as this. It is highly important, however, not to conflate and confuse such a conversation in its concrete particularities and in more theoretical circumstances. In other words, the "abortion issue" ought not to be confused with a particular woman's existential decisions when encountering an unwanted pregnancy. As a citizen, she has the right to speak or not about the situation, even including whoever she had relations with that brought the pregnancy, as she has the right to decide on what to do about it.
The ISSUE of abortion can and should and is being discussed, conversed about, debated, yelled about, and more and has been not only in our own times but in other historical periods. The problem comes when OTHERS decide, force, oppress and legislate upon a woman in those particular circumstances. It's a matter of social discussion and conversation which, the more fully it is discussed the more fully it influences each one of us to consider it and thus arrive at each of our decisions about it. It might, perhaps, be called responsible civility and development towards a fuller and more just Polis. We must remember, though, that no citizen has the right to infringe on the liberty of another; and laws which alienate a portion of a citizen's body (for instance, the reproductive organs) and rule separately over this portion, in effect dis-member a citizen and thus have severe problems with justice. All the aforementioned assuming, of course, a republic which it must be granted is very difficult to discern these days.
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» RE: Validities and levels
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Validities and levels
Posted by: talkville
» Are we really ready for this discussion?
Posted by: cvstoner
» RE: Are we really ready for this discussion?
Posted by: talkville
» RE: Validities and levels
Posted by: lisaisalefty
» The flip side of liberty
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: The flip side of liberty
Posted by: talkville
Comments are closed-
Posted by: JDBishop5 on Sep 6, 2007 3:27 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you!
Slightly off subject, do women have an unlimited right to have an abortion if they have consensual sex with their husband? Does the father have any rights in the situation?
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» RE: Hamish
Posted by: aphrodite
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: aphrodite
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: mviscid
» But PirateJesus
Posted by: clairededuras
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: fork
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: fork
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: aphrodite
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: DaBear...
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: clairededuras
» RE: Hamish
Posted by: phindrup
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jim on Sep 6, 2007 4:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Excuse me?
Posted by: J. Bo
» RE: difficulties
Posted by: DeeOhGee
» Give Men a VETO on the Abortion?
Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: Give Men a VETO on the Abortion?
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Give Men a VETO on the Abortion?
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Give Men a VETO on the Abortion?
Posted by: fork
» RE: difficulties
Posted by: clairededuras
» RE: difficulties
Posted by: LindaB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Q30 on Sep 6, 2007 4:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you really think that most men are decent human beings, then you kind of wonder why there seems to be so much resistance to the idea 'round these parts.
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» RE: This is remarkable
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: This is remarkable
Posted by: Markson
» RE: This is remarkable
Posted by: Q30
» Introducing: Non Sequitur
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Introducing: Non Sequitur
Posted by: Q30
» "You did a great job of proving my point."
Posted by: pdxstudent
» pdx is dead wrong
Posted by: EasterBunny
» Get Your Categories Straight
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Get Your Categories Straight
Posted by: EasterBunny
» Either/Or
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: ither/Or
Posted by: Q30
» RE: "You did a great job of proving my point."
Posted by: Q30
» RE: Introducing: Non Sequitur
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: This is remarkable
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: This is remarkable
Posted by: Q30
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Markson on Sep 6, 2007 5:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Idealism is one thing, basic rights is another.
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Idealism is one thing, basic rights is another.
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Idealism is one thing, basic rights is another.
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Idealism is one thing, basic rights is another.
Posted by: TassieDevil
» Actually...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Actually...
Posted by: TassieDevil
» See my comments further down in response to pdxstudent...
Posted by: mjabele
» A (Mr.) Spock query
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Idealism is one thing, basic rights is another.
Posted by: LindaB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: youngdem on Sep 6, 2007 6:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Good points, but.
Posted by: JDBishop5
» RE: Good points, but.
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Good points, but.
Posted by: Tombo
» RE: Good points, but.
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Good points, but.
Posted by: DaBear
» Why Fuck Around?
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Why Fuck Around?
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: Why Fuck Around?
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Why Fuck Around?
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: Good points, but.
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: Good points, but.
Posted by: youngdem
» RE: Good points, but.
Posted by: TassieDevil
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BobS on Sep 6, 2007 6:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I certainly supported the legalization of abortion, but I really didn't think deeply about the issue.
More recently, I became friends with some of the women who worked in Chicago's underground abortion group "Jane". When women came for their "Jane" abortions, they were sometimes accompanied by their male partners who would wait outside while the procedure was being done.
That got me to thinking more about the role of men in the whole process. What if a woman wanted her male partner to hold her hand while she undergoing the abortion? Would that be appropriate?
I certainly held my female partner's hand when she was giving birth. Would it have been so different if she wanted me to hold her hand while terminating a pregnancy?
What if the woman wanted her male partner to accompany her to the in-take screening or initial counseling? Would that be appropriate? Is that being done now?
Should there be a separate counseling for male partners who whose female partner is planning or has undergone abortion?
I do think men need to be more involved in the whole issue of reproductive freedom, but I'm a little short of answers as to how that should happen.
A woman should have the right to choose how much involvement her male partner should have. That's clear to me.
But that does not mean that men who are excluded should not have some place to go to work out their emotions...even if the woman never wants to see them again and their relationship is severed.
Thank you Courtney Martin for beginning a conversation we should began a long time ago.
Bob Simpson
The BobboSphere
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» RE: Thsi article raises more questions than answers
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: This article raises more questions than answers
Posted by: BobS
» RE: This article raises more questions than answers
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Thsi article raises more questions than answers
Posted by: TassieDevil
» Did you read the article?
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Thsi article raises more questions than answers
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: Thsi article raises more questions than answers
Posted by: youngdem
Comments are closed-
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming on Sep 6, 2007 6:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: but selectively
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: but selectively
Posted by: vasumurti
» RE: but selectively
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: but selectively
Posted by: DeeOhGee
» RE: but selectively
Posted by: morticia
» Specifically...
Posted by: morticia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ggmurray on Sep 6, 2007 6:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree that the decision to abort an unwanted pregnancy must ultimately be the woman's decision. It's her body after all. Do unto others...
Not including the man in the clinic experience is a missed opportunity. At the very least, some sensitive listening and counsel is in order. Abortions are life-changing experiences, and not just for the fetus.
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» RE: Yes, be with men too
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Yes, be with men too
Posted by: vasumurti
» RE: Yes, be with men too
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Yes, be with men too
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: Yes, be with men too
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Yes, be with men too
Posted by: fork
» Dear Vasumurti
Posted by: clairededuras
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 6, 2007 7:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: THER'S MUCH MORE TO THIS
Posted by: ggmurray
» RE: THER'S MUCH MORE TO THIS
Posted by: EasterBunny
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 6, 2007 7:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: cmaciain on Sep 6, 2007 7:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ninety-eight percent of clinic counselors are female, so a man hoping to discuss his feelings with a peer is largely out of luck.
And? So what? Growing up there were very few female doctors, mechanics, etc. Think anyone gave a damn when women said something about that?
The article itself is interesting and provokes conversation. I understand men may want to talk about the experience. Call a counselor. There are plenty who'll talk.
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» Massive hypocrisy, cmaciain
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Massive hypocrisy, cmaciain
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Interesting....
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Interesting....
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: Interesting....
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Interesting....
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: Interesting....
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Interesting....
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Interesting....
Posted by: hellofriends
Comments are closed-
Posted by: drblack on Sep 6, 2007 7:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In order to have a free country the government cannot have any say in what people do with themselves.
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» I agree.
Posted by: wheresarah
» RE: I agree.
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: I agree.
Posted by: hellofriends
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wheresarah on Sep 6, 2007 7:31 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can understand that it's not an easy subject, but if you bring it up before it's an emergency decision, it just seems like you could take time to think about it more rationally, and be MUCH better prepared if the time comes to actually decide. Also you can find out if you are totally at odds with each other, and if so, it seems best you know this BEFORE it happens.
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» RE: I haven't seen mentioned...
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: I haven't seen mentioned...
Posted by: DaBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Axiom69 on Sep 6, 2007 7:43 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: blackfeminista on Sep 6, 2007 7:43 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But it reflects the problem in the mainstream movement, which remains predominantly white and middle class. Women of color-led movements for reproductive justice and abortion rights have ALWAYS included and insisted that men be a part of the dialogue. This doesn't negate a woman's individual choice or control over her own body, but puts that choice within the context of her whole life experience. This wholistic approach has only recently been adopted by the mainstream, and is still very slow to catch on.
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Posted by: doodahman on Sep 6, 2007 8:50 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, having seized total sovereignty over not only their bodies but that of the being inside them, they seem to have little moral grounds to demand that the sperm donor, who has no sovereignty over either the woman or the being inside her, pay for the child.
You want to shred the kid? Go ahead. Shred away. You want to keep it? Fine. You pay to raise it.
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» Typical
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Typical
Posted by: doodahman
» Sex With A Woman Is Not A Right
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: no one is forcing a guy to have sex
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» "Mother Nature demands that a man have sex whenever a woman offers it."
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: "while holding the man fully accountable financially..."
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: "while holding the man fully accountable financially..."
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Typical
Posted by: Gisele
» Not Straight
Posted by: pdxstudent
» I think it's more complicated than you suggest...
Posted by: mjabele
» You've confused 2 seperate issues
Posted by: doopie
» I feel a King Solomon moment coming on here
Posted by: YogiBear
» you started out ok...
Posted by: Ames
» RE: you started out ok...
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Patrick Murfin on Sep 6, 2007 10:03 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I came over to her place for dinner one night, bottle of German white wine in hand. She was crying. “I’m pregnant. I don’t know what to do.” I held her and comforted her. I didn’t ask who the father was. She didn’t volunteer. It was, after all, the lingering twilight of the 60’s.
I was on the staff of the old CHICAGO SEED, the local underground newspaper. I had connections. I knew people who knew people.
Those people were JANE, semi-secret collective of women who defied Illinois law and arranged safe abortions. In later years I got to know names and faces of some of them. They were true heroes in a desperate time.
I helped Ellen get in contact with JANE. They arranged for her to see a cooperating doctor. She had to go alone to the appointment, where she was given a chemical abortificant. I waited for her in her apartment.
The procedure was as safe as possible, but the cramping and pain from the induced miscarriage was serious in Ellen’s case. It lasted three days. I stayed with her the whole time. We were afraid to seek further medical help. Other women had been arrested in hospital emergency rooms.
In the end, the procedure was effective. Ellen recovered. She got on with her life. She went off the next summer on some high adventure and I never saw her again. I got on with my life.
Within a few years, Illinois revised its laws in response to Roe v. Wade and safe abortions in clinical settings became available. JANE dissolved. But I will always remember Ellen’s needless ordeal and will never knowingly allow another woman to suffer so.
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» RE: emembering how it once was
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: emembering how it once was
Posted by: fox1
» RE: emembering how it once was
Posted by: morticia
» RE: emembering how it once was
Posted by: Ames
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Sep 6, 2007 10:12 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
emotions. The real point is Darwinian success [having a child] or
Darwinian failure [being childless], and female power. Of course
evolution translated success and failure into emotions. It had to.
The reality behind the emotions is still success or failure. The
article completely misses the point by talking about teenagers.
Talk about 20-somethings or 30-somethings or 40-somethings and
the female power play: Marry me or I will get an abortion; Buy
me that house you can't quite afford RIGHT NOW or I will get an
abortion.
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» RE: What comes out of a gun is authority. Power comes out of a uterus.
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: What comes out of a gun is authority. Power comes out of a uterus.
Posted by: Gracews
» Stupid female thinking
Posted by: janvdb
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Dannyboy on Sep 6, 2007 10:52 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» What, You Mean Like...
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: What, You Mean Like...
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: What, You Mean Like...
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Inclusion or exclussion?
Posted by: EasterBunny
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DaBear on Sep 6, 2007 11:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've observed that both times when an unintended pregnancy was my (our--mine and my female partner(s)) reality, the circumstances and experiences were very different. Both times I was confident in my own feelings and both times I was decidedly alone and ultimately had no say in things... I was just grateful and lucky the outcome was one I could life with. Both times I was so fearful of having too much influence that my partner had to drag my feelings from my lips and both times those feelings were used as weapons against me. But both times the one element that was the same, other than the being alone emotionally, was the very profound sense of myself as a reproductive being and how much I resented and felt frustrated that I had no authentically reliable and sexually expressive method of preventing a pregnancy when I (or we) wanted to--I was and am a committed partner, I never wanted to cause my partner stress, damage or pain. Both times faulty condoms or condom-related accidents were involved. A condom is a piss-poor device, while better than nothing, it's not as good as a male pill would be (although two of my friends are dad's thanks to the female pill, so, I guess nothing's as good as a vasectomy). Ultimately I got the snip because I realized it wasn't worth the stress and I wasn't enjoying sex anyway because of that stress. Ecologically, I'd already contributed to overpopulation by two kids and I have mixed feelings about that, even as I father my wanted offspring and enjoy that privilege a great deal. But the way people talk about the issue and the utter lack of emotional literacy in their discourse, I get why most men stay silent. Even saying what I've said here... it's the first time I've said it aloud. And it's probably the wrong place too, given the vitriol I've witnessed on Alternet's comment areas.
I'm a broadband wired human being, I feel things on more levels than most people ever acknowledge exist. I know from two decades of talking with men on very deep emotional levels that I'm not the only man who is conscious about his reproductive self and what that means, and it's not limited to the artistic types like me. It's nice that at least one woman understands the need for men to be included in this issue, and I'm grateful to the one commentor who very wisely pointed out that doing so is going to require men talking and being heard and men listening and not talking, or talking differently, depending on the discourse level required along the way between the personal in-the-moment experiences where men live as individuals and as partners, to the level of legal or public discourse. Both are very true. And, I'm grateful to Bob who pointed out that we men have a lot of work to do with our brothers on this.
But, I not holding my breath that men will be welcome as partners in this discussion or process, until long, long after patriarchy has finally gone the path of the dinosaur.
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» RE: A worthy goal
Posted by: jmoore
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Crazy H on Sep 6, 2007 11:44 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
0% of legal rights to decide whether the fetus is aborted or not, 0% right to determine how said child is raised and yet bears 90% of the financial burden.
I became a father at age 17, when my girlfriend's mother stopped her from taking birth control. My girlfriend neglected to tell me that little detail. We eventually broke up, and I spent the next 18 years paying child support for a child raised by another man - a man I disapproved of.
My child's mother decided to move to another state, and I had no say. My child was sent to a southern baptist church while his mother 'lived in sin' with a drug dealer. Again, I had no say in the matter.
But I did shell out half my salary for all that time.
I'm all for equal reproductive rights for women, but I sincerely doubt that they'd be willing to give them up.
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» RE: Do the math
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Do the math
Posted by: Crazy H
» faulty math
Posted by: ezilla
» Discussion or counselling does not = having a say. n/m
Posted by: fork
Comments are closed-
Posted by: tfinn on Sep 6, 2007 12:16 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Another option!
Posted by: ray burchard
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Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Sep 6, 2007 1:49 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: mick3
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: mick3
Posted by: EasterBunny
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Posted by: fox1 on Sep 6, 2007 2:51 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How many doctors and nurses have quit performing abortions because they have dislocated shoulders pulling arms and legs apart from torsos? Nurses have walked out after being forced to throw remains of babies into garbage disposals. Don't kill any terrorists, but by all means inject saline solution into tiny lungs? You people are sick, demented bastards. I pray that God has mercy.
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» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: fox1
» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: fox1
» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: Ames
» RE: Fuck you murdering bastards
Posted by: morticia
» For the fruits of the Spirit
Posted by: jaby
» Such pleasant language from such a God Fearing Christian
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Such pleasant language from such a God Fearing Christian
Posted by: fox1
» fox1, you murdering bastard!
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» Abstinence is Murder
Posted by: janvdb
» RE: Abstinence is Murder
Posted by: fox1
» RE: sorry about f bomb
Posted by: fox1
» RE: sorry about f bomb
Posted by: jaby
» RE: sorry about f bomb
Posted by: fox1
» RE: sorry about f bomb
Posted by: jaby
» RE: sorry about f bomb
Posted by: fox1
» RE: sorry about f bomb
Posted by: jaby
» RE: sorry ...don't waste your time
Posted by: OhioPatriot
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Posted by: Babushka on Sep 6, 2007 3:27 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, and I see the stalking Pro-Life Swift-Boaters are lurking about this ridiculus editorial, as they do...
Come on, Alternet! I thought this was news ala Indie!!!!!!! Geez, no wonder the Demos lost the farm last round if this article represents What They Worry About.....
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» RE: You're kidding, right??????
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: You're kidding, right??????
Posted by: Babushka
» RE: You're kidding, right??????
Posted by: Ames
» your body
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: your body
Posted by: Babushka
» RE: your body
Posted by: hellofriends
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Posted by: cocozane on Sep 6, 2007 5:15 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: Q30
» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: Whitecliff
» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: cocozane
» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: Arlene
» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited
Posted by: Babushka
» "Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited"
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: "Men Are Welcome, But Only If Invited"
Posted by: cocozane
» In some vampire stories,
Posted by: hurricane hugo
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Posted by: luzmejor on Sep 6, 2007 5:20 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't it the person whose body has become subject to likely and unwanted future dangers who would naturally have that right to decide?
Most men involved with a woman do make an effort to help their partners in whatever ways they can. Actually, even slight acquaintances of such women are happy to do whatever they can to respond to girls and women during difficult periods like these.
In my opinion, what bothers many about abortion is that it raises the personal question of whether they were a wanted or unwanted child. There wouldn't be any such questions if abortion fantasies and myths did not include such a lot of cultural prejudices against women and girls as an entire class of discriminated human beings.
Certain social and religious cults have actually climbed the ladder to financial success by pretending to "help" such women in distress. What I find remarkable is that they are the very people who are engaged in causing and promoting all that emotional distress in the first place!
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Sep 6, 2007 6:57 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: no way in hell. my body, my decision.
Posted by: vasumurti
» Vasumurti
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» overpopulation and global ecology
Posted by: vasumurti
» "Choice" versus rights
Posted by: vasumurti
» RE: "Choice" versus rights
Posted by: morticia
» RE: "Choice" versus rights
Posted by: clairededuras
» RE: no way in hell. my body, my decision.
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: no way in hell. my body, my decision.
Posted by: OhioPatriot
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Sep 6, 2007 7:05 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
EVERY SINGLE TIME.
And if there's an "accident," it's still her decision.
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» RE: Men-if you want to be involved in reproductive decisions:
Posted by: vasumurti
» Quid pro quo veggiegrrrl: Women-if you want to be involved in reproductive decisions:
Posted by: Whitecliff
» Whitecliff...agree completely
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Sep 6, 2007 9:24 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you don't give a hoot about that vote, then don't expect them to give a hoot about your cause de' celeb, either.
Same with women.
Gender-neutral, as always...duh?
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» RE: Lol. Whether men are included in the discussion is irrelevant.
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: angryyoungwoman on Sep 6, 2007 10:00 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I once talked to a man about abortion . . .
Posted by: EasterBunny
» angryyoungwoman = life denier
Posted by: Whitecliff
» RE: angryyoungwoman = life denier
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: angryyoungwoman = life denier
Posted by: LindaB
» RE: angryyoungwoman = life denier
Posted by: cocozane
» RE: angryyoungwoman = life denier
Posted by: angryyoungwoman
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Whitecliff on Sep 7, 2007 1:36 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, condoms suck. Men hate them, and women hate them too. They don't even work correctly half of the time, and they cause a loss of sensation for both genders...they often cause guys to lose their erection, and for women they aren't too great either because the 'skin on skin' action is lost. Condoms =worst idea ever.
So, the moral of the story is try to have kids responsibly...if they aren't concieved in a responsible manner by responsible people that respect each other and are seeking to build a long-term relationship for the sake of said child(ren), it's probably best to abort it.
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» Whitecliff - unnecessary evil
Posted by: mjglow
» Whitecliff-disagree completely
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Whitecliff-disagree completely
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Whitecliff-disagree completely
Posted by: OhioPatriot
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Posted by: Caesar77 on Sep 7, 2007 3:48 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Caesar
Posted by: clairededuras
» RE: Caesar
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: Cruella on Sep 7, 2007 5:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But what about the women who have been raped? Should we call the rapist and ask if he wants to start a family? The scared, frightened, isolated women, under pressure from an extended family, unsupported, victims of domestic violence, virtual slaves in their own homes. Should we step in with aggressive new legislation and bully THESE women into the hands of the very people who got them into this predicament in the first place?
There is a similar thing here in the UK to push to tell teenage girl's parents if they ask for advice about contraception. It's just as counter-productive.
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» RE: That was the most stupid response i've read in a long time
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: That was the most stupid response i've read in a long time
Posted by: LindaB
» RE: That was the most stupid response i've read in a long time
Posted by: Cruella
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Posted by: mroche1 on Sep 7, 2007 6:18 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: my thoughts
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: my thoughts
Posted by: LindaB
» RE: my thoughts
Posted by: clairededuras
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Posted by: akema_05 on Sep 7, 2007 6:17 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It's still up to Women
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: It's still up to Women
Posted by: Babushka
» RE: It's still up to Women
Posted by: cocozane
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Posted by: janvdb on Sep 7, 2007 8:44 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well.
Is this what the author is working up to?
Bottom line, men want to control what happens -- some of them want to force women they don't even know to carry the child and others want to force women to abort. It's not pretty, what you see when you open the lid on what men have to say about abortion, which is probably the reason (which the author has missed) why this is discussed so little.
I have thought about this. I strongly believe that every man should be 100% responsible for 100% of the cost of 100% of his kids, that our child support and paternity systems are broken, that children are being cheated and that men get off far too easily.
This is probably mostly due to the old bait-and-switch. He wants a kid all right, so long as he doesn't have to actually deal with it. That's the woman's job. So, he's nice to you long enough to get you preggers, then he splits.
However, there are many cases of women insisting on keeping a pregnancy despite the fact that the father responsibly and blatantly tells her that he doesn't want a child. He gets stuck, so I suppose he doesn't feel a lot of desire to help the kid.
These women are stupid. They are shortchanging their kids and foisting a bunch of poorly-educated, under-cared-for, poverty-scarred kids on us. No father, no money, no chance.
This is how we get a 30% high school drop out rate. These kids are losers from day one.
Anyway, I think that while no one should ever be able to force a woman to have an abortion, there should be a process whereby a man could force a woman to give a child up to adoption, if the process is completed and she is notified of this during the first trimester. A process whereby a father could declare a woman an unfit mother before she becomes one. Because she does not have a willing father arranged for that child, which really should be a minimum requirement for a fit mother. To arrange for support. Or, don't become a mother.
If she doesn't want to bear a child and give it up, she needs to be aware of his position early enough to have an abortion.
Men shouldn't be having sex with women they can't keep track of well enough to know whether or not she is pregnant well within the first trimester. Didn't know? You're stuck because you were obviously being heedless.
I know this will attract a lot of disagreement, but this is a disagreeable area of human behavior and there is no good solution.
When two idiots procreate . . .
Jan VanDenBerg
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» RE: Should unwilling men be able to insist that women give a baby up?
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Should unwilling men be able to insist that women give a baby up?
Posted by: Babushka
» We're not Goddesses
Posted by: clairededuras
» RE: Should unwilling men be able to insist that women give a baby up?
Posted by: LindaB
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Posted by: clairededuras on Sep 7, 2007 11:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mtnprivy on Sep 7, 2007 12:05 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is an awesome responsibility for a woman to share her body with another human on that level. When adults share their bodies for a few minutes, or in my case an hour or two (ha ha) then that is awesome too! Like another post said, priviledge comes with responsibility. Abortions occur for the petiest of reasons. . . like your income ain't that good. Is money all that life is about?
Thank God I am eye to eye with my wife on this matter! If so many of you are so egocentric to turn so quickly to an abortion, then you should seriously consider just learning to masterbate, or else grow up! Hats off to the author for opening the door to such an unPC subject!
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» "the pettiest of reasons..."
Posted by: hurricane hugo
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Posted by: Caesar77 on Sep 7, 2007 4:48 PM
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» I know it may take some work,
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: I know it may take some work,
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: YogiBear on Sep 7, 2007 10:08 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is it people who say "I pray that ..." always make it sound like a condemnation. As for me, I don't believe it that kind of God, but if he exists, I'm pretty sure people who claim to be Christians who are all Old Testament and no love are all gonna burn.
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Posted by: jparsons on Sep 7, 2007 10:32 PM
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satisfaction. Neither men nor women are able to handle the
subject well (without attacking someone else) when it comes to the crunch.
There are a small number of abortion facts that chase themselves around a sad logic circle, and a seemingly infinite number of opinions about which facts are most important
(thereby implying the correct action).
In an unwanted pregnancy situation, there isn't a correct
action. All you can do is hope that whatever decision is made
by whichever parties are involved doesn't result in unendurable
pain. Oh, and perhaps not play too much of the blame game, eh?
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Posted by: odcherenow on Sep 8, 2007 6:51 AM
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Posted by: TassieDevil on Sep 9, 2007 3:02 AM
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By Clair Weaver
September 09, 2007 06:00am
SUSPICIOUS fathers are fuelling a surge in the number of DNA paternity tests secretly being performed on children in Australia.
Thousands of men who suspect their partners of infidelity are ordering checks on their sons and daughters to establish whether they are biologically related.
They send swabs taken from their child's mouth, old toothbrushes, used cotton buds, fingernails and hair samples to laboratories for testing.
Between 15 and 20 per cent come back with a negative result, meaning those involved find out they are not related, according to laboratories.
The trend for secret testing through online companies without consent has sparked ethical concerns for the emotional wellbeing of children and fathers who discover they are not related.
DNA Bio Services managing director Gary Miller told The Sunday Telegraph suspicion was the main factor driving people to arrange tests.
"About 80 per cent would be fathers who want to check their child is actually theirs.
"Ten years ago, there were about 200 DNA tests a year done in Australia, but now we would see 5000.
"The growth has been phenomenal."
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Posted by: ekipnrut on Sep 9, 2007 11:56 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
could NOT have been arrived at without the contribution of the male partner. In the case of rape or incest ,the abortion option should be absolutely available...no ifs...no ands...no buts. In the event that the pregnancy presents a GENUINE medical threat to the woman....same answer. ANYTHING ELSE...if a woman can fuck a guy...she can sit and talk with him when the rubber hits the road, so to speak, with an unintended pregnancy. In this case the problem, obviously,arises when one wants the baby and the other doesn't.
I think that one approach would be to establish as a matter of law that the partner who wants the baby should be able to
go into court and have the dispute determined by a judge with
an underlying (rebuttable) presumption in favor of life. In other words, the burden of proof would be on the one who wants to abort. In ALL those cases resulting in the arrival of the 'baby' :O) , the financial responsibility would be totally 50/50. Split right down the middle. End story.
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» RE: A little clarification of what I propose(d).........
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: When a woman VOLUNTARILY opens her legs ,she perforce relinquishes absolute ...
Posted by: Ames
» RE: When a woman VOLUNTARILY opens her legs ,she perforce relinquishes absolute ...
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: However my main contention is............
Posted by: ekipnrut
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Posted by: Donna_Darko on Sep 10, 2007 12:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then women get blamed for being sluts who murder babies.
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» RE: Not to worry.........
Posted by: ekipnrut
» Say what
Posted by: Donna_Darko
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Posted by: daddyo on Sep 10, 2007 9:39 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This all seems to be viewed as quite noble by a number of the respondents here, who appear to be conflating patriarchal history with every single man out there. I am one man, not the history of men or the history of humankind. I am one man, one human being, who is very much a part of the situation if I have had sex with a woman who becomes pregnant as a result. Yet somehow the question of whether I will now have a child or not is not going to involve me except insofar as I want to support the woman no matter what she decides. This is progress?
By the way, my wife (then my girlfriend) became pregnant some years ago, and she decided unilaterally to abort (before even telling me she was pregnant, much less talking about it). I believe that was wrong, but I concurred in her decision and accompanied her to the clinic in order to support her and share in owning the decision (since it is what I wanted at the time--it would not have been fair or decent to put it all on her). We now have a son that we both wanted to have, and he is wonderful. Sometimes I wonder who the other child would have been. It bothers me that I was party to an abortion (helped create the situation for it, and wanted it, at least compared to the alternative), and it bothers me that the decision was made without me. It just so happened that I concurred, but if I hadn't it would have made no difference. And yet if the decision had been the other way, I would have been expected by those who approve of this article to "man up" and meet my responsibility (I believe I would have). At your service, dear...
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Posted by: secret33.com on Sep 12, 2007 6:28 AM
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Posted by: letsreason on Sep 12, 2007 7:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your postion is based off "a basic human right". Are basic human rights available for everyone in this situation, mother-father-child or only to those that we relativistically choose to apply them to.
It seems a little cold to have such an impersonal position towards the father & child.
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Posted by: felixcommi on Sep 13, 2007 10:21 AM
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There is no conceivable scenario where men could exercise any agency in abortion matters without imposing their beliefs or desires upon the woman who ultimately bears all the physical burden and a significantly greater emotional burden.
Until I grow ovaries and a uterus and have to face the prospect of spending 9 months where i sporadically vomit, experience hormonal reactions inducing rage, depression and a wide plethora of negative effects, as well as the potentiality of rearing a child without the capacity or support to provide them with a decent quality of life, then I have no right to have a voice or agency in these matters.
None. Zero. A big fat irrefutable zilch, unless of course women don't deserve 100% control over their bodies, their physical and mental health, and their quality of life.
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» RE: How Does (a) MAN Effectuate His Agency In Abortion Matters?
Posted by: ekipnrut
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Posted by: Camilla Cracchiolo on Sep 14, 2007 10:52 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I talked to maybe 5000 women over the years about why they were having abortions. About half the time, it was because the man they were with didn't want anything to do with being a father. Which kind of ended the debate for the woman about whether she wanted or didn't want to have a baby: she didn't want to do it alone and that was that.
Then there were women who got pregnant from one night stands, or drunk in bars, or once in a while, rape. They didn't even know how to reach the man involved. I once counseled an Asian woman who was in an arranged marriage, whose husband forbade her to use any birth control and essentially forced the pregnancy on her. THAT was an interesting discussion, focusing a lot on what method of contraception would be easiest to hide from a man who essentially thought he owned this woman.
About 10% of the time, the man came with the woman and stayed with her through the whole thing. I always liked that. Those were the really decent guys of the world. Probably another 10 or 20% of men sat down with their partners and talked it all out and were sad but just didn't come to the clinic.
BTW, we were a feminist clinic (Feminist Women's Health Center, right in the name,) and we were one of the few clinics that did permit a woman's partner in the procedure room with her. The decision was up to the woman, however. The only place we didn't let men go with the women was the aftercare (recovery) room because some of the other women there might be in states of undress, or might not want to see a man while in pain.
We also explained the procedure in women only groups (women only because some women feel inhibited asking graphic questions in front of men and also so women there alone could talk to and support one another while waiting). But then we usually talked to the guy separately and answered his questions.
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Posted by: Camilla Cracchiolo on Sep 14, 2007 11:44 AM
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My Dad was not around. He was in the middle of a nasty custody fight but he didn't live there or help day to day.
My mom was a crazy violent wet-brained drunk, who got institutionalized 3 months after my abortion. The state FINALLY stepped in THEN in 1971 and made us all wards of the court. But at the time, I was trying to hold the family together (not very well, mind you, at 14 with no adult guidance, but I did try to make sure my brothers and sisters got to school every day before I left. All while mama dear was dead drunk on the couch.)
I was white, my boyfriend was black. Neither of our families were happy about that. His mother was not stepping up to take the kid and my mother was (literally) homicidal (a couple of years later she tried to kill one of my brothers in his sleep. Fortunately, in our house he had learned to sleep with one eye open.)
Yet my boyfriend pleaded with me 'not to kill his baby'. "It was genocide". So I asked him what he was going to do for a job, how was he going to support this baby he wanted so much and he had no answer. In fact he had no answer at all to anything he could do for the baby. He had a lousy education, no job skills and no chances for even a lousy job: this was Detroit, which was already dying in 1971. No, I should go through labor & delivery, take on the kid, get on welfare or AFDC, drop out of school and devote myself to his offspring. His idea of daddyhood was to put a picture in his wallet and brag about the kid. Not all that different from his own father, who wasn't around to raise him and had several families.
I wanted to finish high school and go to college. I knew I couldn't do that and be a mom, and given my mother's example, I had an idea I'd be a pretty bad mom. (It was not until I was in my late 30s that I think I was qualified to be a good mother. This kind of childhood leaves deep scars.)
I was going to get out of the poverty and mess I was in and NOBODY was going to stop me. I was very smart and I knew I had a way out through education and that was the ONLY way out.
Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, but the boyfriend wanted me to have that kid. If his mother had come forward and said "this is my grandkid, I'll take it and raise it", I *might* have carried to term. I don't know. But she didn't. Her response was to get her son out of town. I think she was mostly worried that I not go after him or her for child support.
I didn't see why I should have to endure anything more than I was already going through dealing with my mother.
Abortion was illegal in Michigan at the time. I went to New York where it had just been legalized. I arranged the call, the pregnancy test (nobody wanted to give me one underage, you would not believe the hoops I went through.) Tried to go to New York by myself but couldn't, so I got the money from my grandma for the abortion and the bus tickets and dragged my drunk mom in tow so she could sign the consent forms.
The abortion itself went very well, with no pain during, although heavy cramps after. I never felt sad or guilty...I just had this enormous feeling of relief. I know some women say their abortion was traumatic, but for me, it was the pregnancy that was traumatic and the abortion was sheer liberation.
Should this jerk, who couldn't even wear a condom and who skipped town, have had a veto over my abortion? Cause he would have vetoed it. Hell NO!
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» Thanks......
Posted by: ekipnrut
'Reality' Show Lets You Decide If Women Get Abortions?
Sex Addiction: A B.S. Excuse for Not Thinking
Why Do People Want to Have Sex with the 9-Foot Tall Natives in 'Avatar'?




