COMMENTS: 72
Why Love Is Our Most Powerful, Lasting Form of Activism
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Posted by: Lightfoot on Feb 14, 2007 2:05 AM
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Robert Lightfoot
http://robertlightfoot.blogspot.com/
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Posted by: bonkers on Feb 14, 2007 4:29 AM
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Posted by: henderson on Feb 14, 2007 5:39 AM
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Isn't "romantic" love a needy love? We feel incomplete, and some other person will "complete" us? And then they may not live up to what we "expect", and so we drop them and go on endlessly looking....for something that WE need to give ourselves.
It all starts with loving ourselves, just as we are (and that includes forgiveness). We need to realize that no one outside of ourselves can give us the all the love we really want - that love must come to us from our own heart first.
You can only give "water" to others when your own "well" is full.
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» We must 1st love
Posted by: Krain61
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Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 14, 2007 5:44 AM
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Feb would be best served as a "Understanding Relationships" month. In addition, school curriculms would be better off making it MANDATORY courses in discipline and understanding relationships. It's pathetic that neither the right nor left gets it.
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» RE: The reason the US is getting high rates of failed relationships and marriages is
Posted by: douglashoyt
» RE: The reason the US is getting high rates of failed relationships and marriages is
Posted by: jreed
» The reason the US is getting high rates of failed relationships and marriages is
Posted by: Krain61
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Posted by: Moonray on Feb 14, 2007 6:09 AM
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So-called romantic love is largely a social convention fostered in the Western world as an offshoot of feudalism and the oppressive Christian church. Promoting romanticism and quick marriage (dominated by the Church, of course) was a good way to keep the population under control and producing more cheap labor.
Now the same process promotes resistance to progressive change -- and still creates cheap labor. As in the past, most women marry for economic reasons, choosing the wealthiest acceptable man they can find to help raise their offspring.
Then, after the babies are produced, the woman typically jettisons the husband, takes a large chunk of his income in divorce court, and goes merrily on her way with the offspring.
There is nothing pretty about the long-term effects of modern "romance," which usually leaves men and women disappointed or devastated in some way. Just look at the hard data on marriage, divorce and single parenthood.
Marriage is outmoded and should be abolished as a government-sanctioned activity.
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» RE: "Love" is just nature's way of screwing you
Posted by: gmoney15
» RE: "Love" is just nature's way of screwing you
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: "Love" is just nature's way of screwing you
Posted by: Krain61
» A total Non Sequitor ... and a Valentine's Day Bummer, at that .
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» Talk about a non-sequitor . . .
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: Talk about a non-sequitor . . .
Posted by: Gma1
» RE: "Love" is just nature's way of screwing you
Posted by: garyjminter
» RE: "Love" is just nature's way of having a woman screw you
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: Nez46 on Feb 14, 2007 6:23 AM
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What a waste of space and time in an otherwise great publication.
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» I agree - selfless love, 'sacrificial' love
Posted by: fifthworld
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Posted by: drricklippin on Feb 14, 2007 6:57 AM
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Perfect Valentines Day message. Thanks to you and AlterNet.
Barack Obama ended his presidential announcement speech last weekend with the words "I love you" (scripted or spontaneous?)
It differentiated him as the new generation of leadership who is much more likely to say/write this healing phrase without fear, embrassment, shame or derision. I view it as a good hopeful sign?
Be Well,
Dr. Rick Lippin
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» You have a good heart but
Posted by: fifthworld
» RE: You have a good heart but OBAMA?? NO BACKBONE??
Posted by: drricklippin
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Feb 14, 2007 7:25 AM
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...love is so rarely a choice. Love is an instinct, an accident, an epiphany, a stomach ache. It can feel like incarceration and pardon, alienation and intimacy, tragedy and comedy. It so often grabs us by the collar and drags us in whatever direction it feels magnetized. We don't choose it. It harangues us.
That is not love. That is hormonal teenage infatuation. Love should be a choice. None of this cupid-struck-with-an-arrow-I'm-powerless crap.
This is the kind of mentality that causes hundreds of thousands of women around to the world to "fall in love" with death row murderers and other violent psychopaths in prison proclaiming they've found their "soul mate." VOMIT.
This is the kind of BS that keeps women feeling disempowered when they're with LOSERS who aren't appropriate partners.
"I can't leave because I love him."
I don't buy it.
I appreciate the sentimentality of this Valentine's Day nonsense but love is a choice and we need to choose wisely.
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» RE: Love is not a choice?
Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: Love is not a choice?
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Love is not a choice?
Posted by: Krain61
» RE: Love is not a choice?
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» No, NOT a choice - nothing to do with you at all
Posted by: fifthworld
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Posted by: Teresa on Feb 14, 2007 7:27 AM
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» RE: right on - NOT
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: dbowlus on Feb 14, 2007 7:48 AM
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Posted by: ann83 on Feb 14, 2007 7:54 AM
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Science h. logic.
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Posted by: nyluke on Feb 14, 2007 8:15 AM
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http://www.crimethinc.com/library/english/join.html
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Feb 14, 2007 8:17 AM
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1- Make peace with someone you have grown distant from or had a long-standing break with. Not for aggravation- for peacemaking.
2- Show some kindness to someone you know that is less than lovable. We all have people in our lives that are hard to know, hard to understand. A little grace and kindness can warm even the coldest heart.
3- Do something for your significant other today that does not require money. Deeds not only have more value than words, they also speak louder than money.
4- Have a family member, friend, neighbor, etc that is currently far from home? Give them a call or an e-mail telling them that you are thinking of them. It's more important than most people realize.
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» Love is a verb
Posted by: mirimac
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Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Feb 14, 2007 10:02 AM
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His premise was "NOT ROMEO" ... every other character in the piece who interacts with Juliette tries to help and protect the girl. Nurse, Mother, Friar Lawrence, Cousin Paris. And they all pay somewhat of a price for doing it, and suffer greatly when they fail.
Romeo is actually the "boyfriend from hell' who separates Juilettre from her family and gets her killed. Had the two lived ... the tragedy would have decended into pathos as the two grew old together in an xile and poverty they were never raised to cope withal.
Now ... imagine the reaction of Dr. Beckerman's undergraduate actors, when AFTER the opening performance, he revealed to them that that was exactly how he had directed the play! Fortunately ... the very provincial reviewers at Newsday and the Hofstra Chronicle never noticed the difference.
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Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Feb 14, 2007 10:38 AM
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I erred and left out the following second and third paragraphs:
We tend to complicate love in how we react to it, what we do about it, and even how we know it for what it is. We get it tangled up with lust, possession, dominance and other things. If you’re unsure that what you feel can be named “love”, there’s a simple test, a definition of sorts: If the happiness and well-being of the other is necessary to your own, it’s love. If you’ve gotten far enough to recognize that much, try to keep that the core of how you deal with it, and the rest, if you work to stay honest, can almost always be worked out.
The only real limits on love aside from our inherent mortality and time are those we choose: numbers, gender, arrangement – none of it matters to anyone but those involved. The more we love, the more we can love, but absolute freedom is the necessary place for a healthy existence. Anything else is the equivalent of an emotional flowerpot, and love is a wild thing, never to be domesticated. Try transplanting a forest orchid into a flowerpot and taking it home. No matter your expertise or caring, it will die. So too with love. Where it goes, it must go of it’s own nature and volition, else it will not thrive; it cannot even live.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/2/14/13717/8326
Ian
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Posted by: chanceny on Feb 14, 2007 1:51 PM
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» Republican philanderers' V-day blues
Posted by: fifthworld
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Posted by: redbrownandblueparty on Feb 14, 2007 1:52 PM
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» Look up "hypocrisy" and explain your statement, please.
Posted by: Torgo
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Posted by: canadianlefty on Feb 14, 2007 2:41 PM
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It is not the moment we chose to love that we begin to move towards freedom, because love is so rarely a choice. Love is an instinct, an accident, an epiphany, a stomach ache.
The reason why the author may think hooks is wrong is because she evidently defines "love" in quite a different way from hooks. In contrast to the second paragraph I pasted above, hooks (from what I remember of her books on the topic) defines "love" as a practice, not a feeling. The feeling matters too, of course, but I think it is that understanding of love-as-practice that makes hooks' work on the topic so revolutionary.
-- S.N.
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Posted by: xgroverx on Feb 14, 2007 2:53 PM
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» Another thought on change
Posted by: fifthworld
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Posted by: Donna_Darko on Feb 14, 2007 3:42 PM
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If women didn't marry men who hated women, the world would change. But misogyny is the air we breathe. Men hate women. Period. Women hate women. Society is like that. Feminists are those who think this over or grow up with feminist relatives or friends but it's not the norm. Women already married to men who hate women will eventually clash and not get along. It's better to be alone than together in a nightmare.
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» Oh, brother! (or, rather, sister!)
Posted by: Moonray
» Vows
Posted by: fifthworld
» Aaarrrgghhh
Posted by: fifthworld
» Alternet makes it obvious men really, really, really, really hate women
Posted by: Donna_Darko
» RE: Alternet makes it obvious men really, really, really, really hate women
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: Alternet makes it obvious men really, really, really, really hate women
Posted by: Donna_Darko
» Let me reiterate
Posted by: Donna_Darko
» Spoken like a true autocrat!
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» It's not autocratic
Posted by: Donna_Darko
» Not all of them, but too many
Posted by: Beck
» I didn't say all
Posted by: Donna_Darko
» PATHETIC generalizations
Posted by: Aufklaerung_Baboon
» Men hate weakness
Posted by: Donna_Darko
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Posted by: fifthworld on Feb 14, 2007 5:57 PM
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But: because our self-help society becomes increasingly preoccupied with personal relationships and their attendant issues, and I'm talking especially the boomers and the psycho-spiritual junkies out there (live from Santa Fe here), the LIBERALS for heavens' sake, we're losing the world. Yes indeed, personal love is the crux of our learning and our sense of respect and care for and with others, but one can just as easily say, as I would, that "the letters you write to Congress and the votes you cast are as much formative or declarative of the soul and its longings as who you love and how you love them."
I'm also thinking now of Michael Franti's "it's not who you love, but DO you love" - and for me that means much beyond the interpersonal.
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Posted by: Torgo on Feb 14, 2007 7:16 PM
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I am as guilty as the next bleeding heart of focusing the majority of my energies on problems I see as compelling in large part because of their strangeness to me. But when I sit with myself, quiet my righteous indignation, my whiny white guilt, my attachment to the idea that I am a humble truth teller among powerful fibbers, I realize that it is not the world outside of me that is in most desperate need of my world-changing instincts. It is the world inside of me, the world between me and my beloved.
As I type this, there have been 39 comments posted, yet I have not yet read one Alternet poster disagreeing with the psychological motives and obvious delusions of grandeur delineated above and requoted below:
a love affair with that which might make us feel gallant and extraordinary for caring.
when I sit with myself, quiet my righteous indignation, my whiny white guilt, my attachment to the idea that I am a humble truth teller among powerful fibbers
All of us would be much better people if we would focus on objective reality instead of one's subjective self-image and psychological whims. This can easily be done by behaving honorably and ethically is one's community and family life, following the principle of subsidiarity.
The "malignant narcissism" (that cares for for selfish ego-stroking whims more than understanding objective facts on the ground, and that engages in judgementalism and intolerance as it points fingers at distant Others) inherent in the above confession contradicts the philosophies of such teachers as Jesus, Gandhi, and John Quincy Adams:
Jesus-Remove the log from thine own eye...
Gandhi-Be the change you wish to see in the world...
Adams-Go not abroad in search of monsters to destroy...
Not to mention the words of Albert Camus in "The Plague":
The evil that is in the world always comes of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence, if they lack understanding. On the whole men are more good than bad; that, however, isn't the real point. But they are more or less ignorant, and it is this that we call vice or virtue; the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything and therefore claims for itself the right to kill. There can be no true goodness, nor true love, without the utmost clear-sightedness.
My contempt for narcissists extends from those on the Left (who have Serb blood dripping from their hands) to those on the Right (who have Iraqi blood dripping from their hands), all of whom claimed the right to kill in the name of the obscene abstraction called the greater good that they fancied they knew.
"Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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» Great from Camus
Posted by: fifthworld
» You're welcome, and here's another clear-sighted writer...
Posted by: Torgo
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Posted by: Torgo on Feb 14, 2007 8:27 PM
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The reduction of conflicts to battles between good and evil encourages one side (those favoured as ‘good’) to become more belligerent and to hold out against compromise or talks on the basis that they have powerful forces in the West on their side; and it encourages the other side (those labelled as ‘evil’) to become more entrenched and embittered. We can see this happening over Darfur. In May, Darfurian rebel groups initially held back from signing a draft agreement with the Sudanese government, even though the agreement gave the rebels ‘most of what they went to war for’, including: ‘large areas of territory’; a situation where Khartoum-backed militias would have to disarm first; a guarantee of affirmative action so that Darfurians will get public-service jobs; and the right to nominate the governor of one of Darfur’s three states and the deputy governors of the other two. Why did they hesitate over the deal? Because, as Jonathan Steele argued, ‘One-sided international media treatment of the crisis may have emboldened the rebels to increase their demands.’ Such Western coverage, said Steele, ‘could be having a pernicious effect and be delaying the chance of ending the killing’ . Again, it is a familiar story. The Bosnian Muslims, under advice from the Clinton administration and encouraged by widespread Western support, continually held out for better and better deals in the Bosnian war in 1994 and 1995, which made that bloody conflict drag on for months longer than it needed to.
In a perceptive piece in the New York Times, Alan J Kuperman described it as ‘strategic victimhood in Sudan’, where Darfurian rebels exploited the victim status awarded to them by Western observers in order to get a better deal. Kuperman argues that Westerners’ ‘persistent calls for intervention have actually worsened the violence’: ‘The rebels, much weaker than the government, would logically have sued for peace long ago. Because of the Save Darfur movement, however, the rebels believe that the longer they provoke genocidal reaction, the more the West will pressure Sudan to hand them control of the region.’ It may seem shocking to hear it suggested that rebel armies would knowingly provoke violence against their own people. But again, this is part of the logic of the humanitarian era....It is still alleged, for example, that Bosnian Muslim forces attacked their own people with mortars, and blamed it on the Serbs, as a means of winning further Western sympathy. Kosovo Albanian forces are alleged to have staged a massacre, by manoeuvring dead bodies, in order to encourage intervention over Kosovo in 1999...
Where in earlier eras rebel groups might have fought for independence, today, in the humanitarian era, they often execute stunts for pity.
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Posted by: garyjminter on Feb 14, 2007 8:28 PM
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If we all could learn to "love our enemies as ourselves" there would be no murders, wars, hatreds...but it is so hard to love truly and "forgive those who have trespassed against us...."
"What the world needs now, is love, sweet love..." Very true, there's not enough love, kindness, mercy in this world. But it is easier said than done to love those who are mean, or evil, or selfish, or too different from ourselves...
Could you love George W. Bush? Adolf Hitler? Osama bin Laden? The late Saddam Hussein?
Not so easy, is it? But if we don't try, if not to love, at least not to hate, we will always have wars, and rumors of wars, until the end of Time...
Gary
Gary James Minter
http://aidsvillagechina.blog.sohu.com
www.healthchina.org
P.S. in the meantime, at least try to do something to help those truly in need, those who are old, sick, dying, disabled, those who cannot help the situation they are in...give your help to those who truly need it, not to those who are just too selfish and lazy to help themselves....
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Posted by: garyjminter on Feb 14, 2007 8:54 PM
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Love is a living thing, with a will and spirit of its own, and cannot be defined, controlled, or monopolized by anyone or anything, no matter how hard they try, or how desperately they wish it to be according to their will, or desires....
Power can only try to imitate Love, and it always fails in the end, because it destroys that which it tries to love....Just as during the Viet Nam war, the U.S. military would "destroy the village in order to save it."
No one can force Love, or pressure Love, or through will or desire create Love...just as no one can truly create Life (except perhaps Dr. Frank N. Furter!)...even sex does not create Life, it joins two already living cells, the egg and the sperm, together in a unique combination which can grow and evolve....
All the social conventions, religious traditions, government edicts, and greeting card company sales pitches are very pale, feeble attempts to imitate, symbolize, and cash in on Love. We should not mistake any of these for the real thing, the miracle and mystery of Love...
Gary
Gary J. Minter
http://aidsvillagechina.blog.sohu.com
www.healthchina.org
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Posted by: hamlynite on Feb 15, 2007 2:58 PM
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Don't get me wrong, love and marriage are generally good concepts but as with most things in our lives, they too, over time have been tainted by commercialism, trashy journalism and a general breakdown in the social structure.
The peice is right though, about the fact that you can't and shouldn't determine who and how you love on whether you feel under pressure to do so, or whether or not it goes some way to making your life easier in some way.
I also agree that if people go through the right process and find true love, it is a step towards a better world.
This is because to find true love includes at the very least, some period of self meditation. There's no quick fix, and Tony Robbins couldn't write a book to help you do so. If He does, it's a scam!!!!!!
You are no good to anybody if you don't know who you are; because sooner or later all the things you didn't take time to find out about yourself, will become part of the reason your relationship didn't work.
If more people approached love and relationships in general, in this way, they and the world would witness a great change for the better.
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Posted by: Mr. Heathen on Feb 15, 2007 6:26 PM
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Posted by: JLE on Feb 15, 2007 9:59 PM
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Funny thing, it's like being drunk, drugged, or dizzy; it's hard to pinpoint the exact feeling unless you're currently experiencing it--otherwise, by default, only distance remains.
I would point to one of the most beautiful scenes in all of literature, the point in The Odyssey where Odysseus goes to Penelope disguised as a beggar, bringing news of her husband (himself) who has been away for years.
She, melting at the sound, with drops of
Tenderest grief her cheeks bedewed
And as the snow, by Zephyrus diffused,
Melts on the mountain top, when Eurus breathes
And fills the channels of the running streams,
So melted she, and down her lovely cheeks
Poured fast the tears, him mourning as remote
Who sat beside her.
The visible softening of Penelope, as compared to the coming of Spring here, the melting of years of frozen longing, creates a universal metaphor for what the hope of love can do.
--JLE
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Posted by: Torgo on Feb 18, 2007 11:28 AM
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Love, we are repeatedly taught, consists of self-sacrifice. Love based on self-interest, we are admonished, is cheap and sordid. True love, we are told, is altruistic. But is it?
Imagine a Valentine's Day card which takes this premise seriously. Imagine receiving a card with the following message: "I get no pleasure from your existence. I obtain no personal enjoyment from the way you look, dress, move, act or think. Our relationship profits me not. You satisfy no sexual, emotional or intellectual needs of mine. You're a charity case, and I'm with you only out of pity. Love, XXX."
Needless to say, you would be indignant to learn that you are being "loved," not for anything positive you offer your lover, but--like any recipient of alms--for what you lack. Yet that is the perverse view of love entailed in the belief that it is self-sacrificial.
Genuine love is the exact opposite. It is the most selfish experience possible, in the true sense of the term: it benefits your life in a way that involves no sacrifice of others to yourself or of yourself to others.
To love a person is selfish because it means that you value that particular person, that he or she makes your life better, that he or she is an intense source of joy--to you. A "disinterested" love is a contradiction in terms. One cannot be neutral to that which one values. The time, effort and money you spend on behalf of someone you love are not sacrifices, but actions taken because his or her happiness is crucially important to your own. Such actions would constitute sacrifices only if they were done for a stranger--or for an enemy. Those who argue that love demands self-denial must hold the bizarre belief that it makes no personal difference whether your loved one is healthy or sick, feels pleasure or pain, is alive or dead.
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Posted by: psyopswatcher on Feb 18, 2007 12:57 PM
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(sung to Yankee Doodle Dandy)
Just had to add that. This is the only movie Clint Eastwood and Lee Marvin ever made together--a musical!
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Posted by: Torgo on Feb 18, 2007 1:46 PM
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~ Goethe
Yes, dear reader. There are people who do not try to improve the world, which is not only hopeless, but also vain and disastrous. Instead, real heroes do what they can to improve the world around them.
Click the link to read about French and Indian heroes who saved lives, one by one, without the violent blunt instrument of taxation and government.
"Men go crazy in congregations, they only get better one by one. One by one."-Sting
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Posted by: Lightfoot on Feb 14, 2007 2:05 AM
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Robert Lightfoot
http://robertlightfoot.blogspot.com/
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Posted by: bonkers on Feb 14, 2007 4:29 AM
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Posted by: henderson on Feb 14, 2007 5:39 AM
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Isn't "romantic" love a needy love? We feel incomplete, and some other person will "complete" us? And then they may not live up to what we "expect", and so we drop them and go on endlessly looking....for something that WE need to give ourselves.
It all starts with loving ourselves, just as we are (and that includes forgiveness). We need to realize that no one outside of ourselves can give us the all the love we really want - that love must come to us from our own heart first.
You can only give "water" to others when your own "well" is full.
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» We must 1st love
Posted by: Krain61
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Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 14, 2007 5:44 AM
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Feb would be best served as a "Understanding Relationships" month. In addition, school curriculms would be better off making it MANDATORY courses in discipline and understanding relationships. It's pathetic that neither the right nor left gets it.
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» RE: The reason the US is getting high rates of failed relationships and marriages is
Posted by: douglashoyt
» RE: The reason the US is getting high rates of failed relationships and marriages is
Posted by: jreed
» The reason the US is getting high rates of failed relationships and marriages is
Posted by: Krain61
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Posted by: Moonray on Feb 14, 2007 6:09 AM
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So-called romantic love is largely a social convention fostered in the Western world as an offshoot of feudalism and the oppressive Christian church. Promoting romanticism and quick marriage (dominated by the Church, of course) was a good way to keep the population under control and producing more cheap labor.
Now the same process promotes resistance to progressive change -- and still creates cheap labor. As in the past, most women marry for economic reasons, choosing the wealthiest acceptable man they can find to help raise their offspring.
Then, after the babies are produced, the woman typically jettisons the husband, takes a large chunk of his income in divorce court, and goes merrily on her way with the offspring.
There is nothing pretty about the long-term effects of modern "romance," which usually leaves men and women disappointed or devastated in some way. Just look at the hard data on marriage, divorce and single parenthood.
Marriage is outmoded and should be abolished as a government-sanctioned activity.
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» RE: "Love" is just nature's way of screwing you
Posted by: gmoney15
» RE: "Love" is just nature's way of screwing you
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: "Love" is just nature's way of screwing you
Posted by: Krain61
» A total Non Sequitor ... and a Valentine's Day Bummer, at that .
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» Talk about a non-sequitor . . .
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: Talk about a non-sequitor . . .
Posted by: Gma1
» RE: "Love" is just nature's way of screwing you
Posted by: garyjminter
» RE: "Love" is just nature's way of having a woman screw you
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: Nez46 on Feb 14, 2007 6:23 AM
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What a waste of space and time in an otherwise great publication.
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» I agree - selfless love, 'sacrificial' love
Posted by: fifthworld
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Posted by: drricklippin on Feb 14, 2007 6:57 AM
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Perfect Valentines Day message. Thanks to you and AlterNet.
Barack Obama ended his presidential announcement speech last weekend with the words "I love you" (scripted or spontaneous?)
It differentiated him as the new generation of leadership who is much more likely to say/write this healing phrase without fear, embrassment, shame or derision. I view it as a good hopeful sign?
Be Well,
Dr. Rick Lippin
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» You have a good heart but
Posted by: fifthworld
» RE: You have a good heart but OBAMA?? NO BACKBONE??
Posted by: drricklippin
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Feb 14, 2007 7:25 AM
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...love is so rarely a choice. Love is an instinct, an accident, an epiphany, a stomach ache. It can feel like incarceration and pardon, alienation and intimacy, tragedy and comedy. It so often grabs us by the collar and drags us in whatever direction it feels magnetized. We don't choose it. It harangues us.
That is not love. That is hormonal teenage infatuation. Love should be a choice. None of this cupid-struck-with-an-arrow-I'm-powerless crap.
This is the kind of mentality that causes hundreds of thousands of women around to the world to "fall in love" with death row murderers and other violent psychopaths in prison proclaiming they've found their "soul mate." VOMIT.
This is the kind of BS that keeps women feeling disempowered when they're with LOSERS who aren't appropriate partners.
"I can't leave because I love him."
I don't buy it.
I appreciate the sentimentality of this Valentine's Day nonsense but love is a choice and we need to choose wisely.
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» RE: Love is not a choice?
Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: Love is not a choice?
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Love is not a choice?
Posted by: Krain61
» RE: Love is not a choice?
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» No, NOT a choice - nothing to do with you at all
Posted by: fifthworld
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Posted by: Teresa on Feb 14, 2007 7:27 AM
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» RE: right on - NOT
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: dbowlus on Feb 14, 2007 7:48 AM
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Posted by: ann83 on Feb 14, 2007 7:54 AM
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Science h. logic.
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Posted by: nyluke on Feb 14, 2007 8:15 AM
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http://www.crimethinc.com/library/english/join.html
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Feb 14, 2007 8:17 AM
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1- Make peace with someone you have grown distant from or had a long-standing break with. Not for aggravation- for peacemaking.
2- Show some kindness to someone you know that is less than lovable. We all have people in our lives that are hard to know, hard to understand. A little grace and kindness can warm even the coldest heart.
3- Do something for your significant other today that does not require money. Deeds not only have more value than words, they also speak louder than money.
4- Have a family member, friend, neighbor, etc that is currently far from home? Give them a call or an e-mail telling them that you are thinking of them. It's more important than most people realize.
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» Love is a verb
Posted by: mirimac
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Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Feb 14, 2007 10:02 AM
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His premise was "NOT ROMEO" ... every other character in the piece who interacts with Juliette tries to help and protect the girl. Nurse, Mother, Friar Lawrence, Cousin Paris. And they all pay somewhat of a price for doing it, and suffer greatly when they fail.
Romeo is actually the "boyfriend from hell' who separates Juilettre from her family and gets her killed. Had the two lived ... the tragedy would have decended into pathos as the two grew old together in an xile and poverty they were never raised to cope withal.
Now ... imagine the reaction of Dr. Beckerman's undergraduate actors, when AFTER the opening performance, he revealed to them that that was exactly how he had directed the play! Fortunately ... the very provincial reviewers at Newsday and the Hofstra Chronicle never noticed the difference.
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Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Feb 14, 2007 10:38 AM
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I erred and left out the following second and third paragraphs:
We tend to complicate love in how we react to it, what we do about it, and even how we know it for what it is. We get it tangled up with lust, possession, dominance and other things. If you’re unsure that what you feel can be named “love”, there’s a simple test, a definition of sorts: If the happiness and well-being of the other is necessary to your own, it’s love. If you’ve gotten far enough to recognize that much, try to keep that the core of how you deal with it, and the rest, if you work to stay honest, can almost always be worked out.
The only real limits on love aside from our inherent mortality and time are those we choose: numbers, gender, arrangement – none of it matters to anyone but those involved. The more we love, the more we can love, but absolute freedom is the necessary place for a healthy existence. Anything else is the equivalent of an emotional flowerpot, and love is a wild thing, never to be domesticated. Try transplanting a forest orchid into a flowerpot and taking it home. No matter your expertise or caring, it will die. So too with love. Where it goes, it must go of it’s own nature and volition, else it will not thrive; it cannot even live.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/2/14/13717/8326
Ian
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Posted by: chanceny on Feb 14, 2007 1:51 PM
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» Republican philanderers' V-day blues
Posted by: fifthworld
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Posted by: redbrownandblueparty on Feb 14, 2007 1:52 PM
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» Look up "hypocrisy" and explain your statement, please.
Posted by: Torgo
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Posted by: canadianlefty on Feb 14, 2007 2:41 PM
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It is not the moment we chose to love that we begin to move towards freedom, because love is so rarely a choice. Love is an instinct, an accident, an epiphany, a stomach ache.
The reason why the author may think hooks is wrong is because she evidently defines "love" in quite a different way from hooks. In contrast to the second paragraph I pasted above, hooks (from what I remember of her books on the topic) defines "love" as a practice, not a feeling. The feeling matters too, of course, but I think it is that understanding of love-as-practice that makes hooks' work on the topic so revolutionary.
-- S.N.
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Posted by: xgroverx on Feb 14, 2007 2:53 PM
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» Another thought on change
Posted by: fifthworld
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Posted by: Donna_Darko on Feb 14, 2007 3:42 PM
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If women didn't marry men who hated women, the world would change. But misogyny is the air we breathe. Men hate women. Period. Women hate women. Society is like that. Feminists are those who think this over or grow up with feminist relatives or friends but it's not the norm. Women already married to men who hate women will eventually clash and not get along. It's better to be alone than together in a nightmare.
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» Oh, brother! (or, rather, sister!)
Posted by: Moonray
» Vows
Posted by: fifthworld
» Aaarrrgghhh
Posted by: fifthworld
» Alternet makes it obvious men really, really, really, really hate women
Posted by: Donna_Darko
» RE: Alternet makes it obvious men really, really, really, really hate women
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: Alternet makes it obvious men really, really, really, really hate women
Posted by: Donna_Darko
» Let me reiterate
Posted by: Donna_Darko
» Spoken like a true autocrat!
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» It's not autocratic
Posted by: Donna_Darko
» Not all of them, but too many
Posted by: Beck
» I didn't say all
Posted by: Donna_Darko
» PATHETIC generalizations
Posted by: Aufklaerung_Baboon
» Men hate weakness
Posted by: Donna_Darko
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Posted by: fifthworld on Feb 14, 2007 5:57 PM
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But: because our self-help society becomes increasingly preoccupied with personal relationships and their attendant issues, and I'm talking especially the boomers and the psycho-spiritual junkies out there (live from Santa Fe here), the LIBERALS for heavens' sake, we're losing the world. Yes indeed, personal love is the crux of our learning and our sense of respect and care for and with others, but one can just as easily say, as I would, that "the letters you write to Congress and the votes you cast are as much formative or declarative of the soul and its longings as who you love and how you love them."
I'm also thinking now of Michael Franti's "it's not who you love, but DO you love" - and for me that means much beyond the interpersonal.
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Posted by: Torgo on Feb 14, 2007 7:16 PM
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I am as guilty as the next bleeding heart of focusing the majority of my energies on problems I see as compelling in large part because of their strangeness to me. But when I sit with myself, quiet my righteous indignation, my whiny white guilt, my attachment to the idea that I am a humble truth teller among powerful fibbers, I realize that it is not the world outside of me that is in most desperate need of my world-changing instincts. It is the world inside of me, the world between me and my beloved.
As I type this, there have been 39 comments posted, yet I have not yet read one Alternet poster disagreeing with the psychological motives and obvious delusions of grandeur delineated above and requoted below:
a love affair with that which might make us feel gallant and extraordinary for caring.
when I sit with myself, quiet my righteous indignation, my whiny white guilt, my attachment to the idea that I am a humble truth teller among powerful fibbers
All of us would be much better people if we would focus on objective reality instead of one's subjective self-image and psychological whims. This can easily be done by behaving honorably and ethically is one's community and family life, following the principle of subsidiarity.
The "malignant narcissism" (that cares for for selfish ego-stroking whims more than understanding objective facts on the ground, and that engages in judgementalism and intolerance as it points fingers at distant Others) inherent in the above confession contradicts the philosophies of such teachers as Jesus, Gandhi, and John Quincy Adams:
Jesus-Remove the log from thine own eye...
Gandhi-Be the change you wish to see in the world...
Adams-Go not abroad in search of monsters to destroy...
Not to mention the words of Albert Camus in "The Plague":
The evil that is in the world always comes of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence, if they lack understanding. On the whole men are more good than bad; that, however, isn't the real point. But they are more or less ignorant, and it is this that we call vice or virtue; the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything and therefore claims for itself the right to kill. There can be no true goodness, nor true love, without the utmost clear-sightedness.
My contempt for narcissists extends from those on the Left (who have Serb blood dripping from their hands) to those on the Right (who have Iraqi blood dripping from their hands), all of whom claimed the right to kill in the name of the obscene abstraction called the greater good that they fancied they knew.
"Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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» Great from Camus
Posted by: fifthworld
» You're welcome, and here's another clear-sighted writer...
Posted by: Torgo
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Posted by: Torgo on Feb 14, 2007 8:27 PM
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The reduction of conflicts to battles between good and evil encourages one side (those favoured as ‘good’) to become more belligerent and to hold out against compromise or talks on the basis that they have powerful forces in the West on their side; and it encourages the other side (those labelled as ‘evil’) to become more entrenched and embittered. We can see this happening over Darfur. In May, Darfurian rebel groups initially held back from signing a draft agreement with the Sudanese government, even though the agreement gave the rebels ‘most of what they went to war for’, including: ‘large areas of territory’; a situation where Khartoum-backed militias would have to disarm first; a guarantee of affirmative action so that Darfurians will get public-service jobs; and the right to nominate the governor of one of Darfur’s three states and the deputy governors of the other two. Why did they hesitate over the deal? Because, as Jonathan Steele argued, ‘One-sided international media treatment of the crisis may have emboldened the rebels to increase their demands.’ Such Western coverage, said Steele, ‘could be having a pernicious effect and be delaying the chance of ending the killing’ . Again, it is a familiar story. The Bosnian Muslims, under advice from the Clinton administration and encouraged by widespread Western support, continually held out for better and better deals in the Bosnian war in 1994 and 1995, which made that bloody conflict drag on for months longer than it needed to.
In a perceptive piece in the New York Times, Alan J Kuperman described it as ‘strategic victimhood in Sudan’, where Darfurian rebels exploited the victim status awarded to them by Western observers in order to get a better deal. Kuperman argues that Westerners’ ‘persistent calls for intervention have actually worsened the violence’: ‘The rebels, much weaker than the government, would logically have sued for peace long ago. Because of the Save Darfur movement, however, the rebels believe that the longer they provoke genocidal reaction, the more the West will pressure Sudan to hand them control of the region.’ It may seem shocking to hear it suggested that rebel armies would knowingly provoke violence against their own people. But again, this is part of the logic of the humanitarian era....It is still alleged, for example, that Bosnian Muslim forces attacked their own people with mortars, and blamed it on the Serbs, as a means of winning further Western sympathy. Kosovo Albanian forces are alleged to have staged a massacre, by manoeuvring dead bodies, in order to encourage intervention over Kosovo in 1999...
Where in earlier eras rebel groups might have fought for independence, today, in the humanitarian era, they often execute stunts for pity.
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Posted by: garyjminter on Feb 14, 2007 8:28 PM
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If we all could learn to "love our enemies as ourselves" there would be no murders, wars, hatreds...but it is so hard to love truly and "forgive those who have trespassed against us...."
"What the world needs now, is love, sweet love..." Very true, there's not enough love, kindness, mercy in this world. But it is easier said than done to love those who are mean, or evil, or selfish, or too different from ourselves...
Could you love George W. Bush? Adolf Hitler? Osama bin Laden? The late Saddam Hussein?
Not so easy, is it? But if we don't try, if not to love, at least not to hate, we will always have wars, and rumors of wars, until the end of Time...
Gary
Gary James Minter
http://aidsvillagechina.blog.sohu.com
www.healthchina.org
P.S. in the meantime, at least try to do something to help those truly in need, those who are old, sick, dying, disabled, those who cannot help the situation they are in...give your help to those who truly need it, not to those who are just too selfish and lazy to help themselves....
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Posted by: garyjminter on Feb 14, 2007 8:54 PM
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Love is a living thing, with a will and spirit of its own, and cannot be defined, controlled, or monopolized by anyone or anything, no matter how hard they try, or how desperately they wish it to be according to their will, or desires....
Power can only try to imitate Love, and it always fails in the end, because it destroys that which it tries to love....Just as during the Viet Nam war, the U.S. military would "destroy the village in order to save it."
No one can force Love, or pressure Love, or through will or desire create Love...just as no one can truly create Life (except perhaps Dr. Frank N. Furter!)...even sex does not create Life, it joins two already living cells, the egg and the sperm, together in a unique combination which can grow and evolve....
All the social conventions, religious traditions, government edicts, and greeting card company sales pitches are very pale, feeble attempts to imitate, symbolize, and cash in on Love. We should not mistake any of these for the real thing, the miracle and mystery of Love...
Gary
Gary J. Minter
http://aidsvillagechina.blog.sohu.com
www.healthchina.org
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Posted by: hamlynite on Feb 15, 2007 2:58 PM
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Don't get me wrong, love and marriage are generally good concepts but as with most things in our lives, they too, over time have been tainted by commercialism, trashy journalism and a general breakdown in the social structure.
The peice is right though, about the fact that you can't and shouldn't determine who and how you love on whether you feel under pressure to do so, or whether or not it goes some way to making your life easier in some way.
I also agree that if people go through the right process and find true love, it is a step towards a better world.
This is because to find true love includes at the very least, some period of self meditation. There's no quick fix, and Tony Robbins couldn't write a book to help you do so. If He does, it's a scam!!!!!!
You are no good to anybody if you don't know who you are; because sooner or later all the things you didn't take time to find out about yourself, will become part of the reason your relationship didn't work.
If more people approached love and relationships in general, in this way, they and the world would witness a great change for the better.
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Posted by: Mr. Heathen on Feb 15, 2007 6:26 PM
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Posted by: JLE on Feb 15, 2007 9:59 PM
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Funny thing, it's like being drunk, drugged, or dizzy; it's hard to pinpoint the exact feeling unless you're currently experiencing it--otherwise, by default, only distance remains.
I would point to one of the most beautiful scenes in all of literature, the point in The Odyssey where Odysseus goes to Penelope disguised as a beggar, bringing news of her husband (himself) who has been away for years.
She, melting at the sound, with drops of
Tenderest grief her cheeks bedewed
And as the snow, by Zephyrus diffused,
Melts on the mountain top, when Eurus breathes
And fills the channels of the running streams,
So melted she, and down her lovely cheeks
Poured fast the tears, him mourning as remote
Who sat beside her.
The visible softening of Penelope, as compared to the coming of Spring here, the melting of years of frozen longing, creates a universal metaphor for what the hope of love can do.
--JLE
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Posted by: Torgo on Feb 18, 2007 11:28 AM
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Love, we are repeatedly taught, consists of self-sacrifice. Love based on self-interest, we are admonished, is cheap and sordid. True love, we are told, is altruistic. But is it?
Imagine a Valentine's Day card which takes this premise seriously. Imagine receiving a card with the following message: "I get no pleasure from your existence. I obtain no personal enjoyment from the way you look, dress, move, act or think. Our relationship profits me not. You satisfy no sexual, emotional or intellectual needs of mine. You're a charity case, and I'm with you only out of pity. Love, XXX."
Needless to say, you would be indignant to learn that you are being "loved," not for anything positive you offer your lover, but--like any recipient of alms--for what you lack. Yet that is the perverse view of love entailed in the belief that it is self-sacrificial.
Genuine love is the exact opposite. It is the most selfish experience possible, in the true sense of the term: it benefits your life in a way that involves no sacrifice of others to yourself or of yourself to others.
To love a person is selfish because it means that you value that particular person, that he or she makes your life better, that he or she is an intense source of joy--to you. A "disinterested" love is a contradiction in terms. One cannot be neutral to that which one values. The time, effort and money you spend on behalf of someone you love are not sacrifices, but actions taken because his or her happiness is crucially important to your own. Such actions would constitute sacrifices only if they were done for a stranger--or for an enemy. Those who argue that love demands self-denial must hold the bizarre belief that it makes no personal difference whether your loved one is healthy or sick, feels pleasure or pain, is alive or dead.
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Posted by: psyopswatcher on Feb 18, 2007 12:57 PM
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(sung to Yankee Doodle Dandy)
Just had to add that. This is the only movie Clint Eastwood and Lee Marvin ever made together--a musical!
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Posted by: Torgo on Feb 18, 2007 1:46 PM
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~ Goethe
Yes, dear reader. There are people who do not try to improve the world, which is not only hopeless, but also vain and disastrous. Instead, real heroes do what they can to improve the world around them.
Click the link to read about French and Indian heroes who saved lives, one by one, without the violent blunt instrument of taxation and government.
"Men go crazy in congregations, they only get better one by one. One by one."-Sting
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