COMMENTS: 101
Female Orgasm and the Need for a New Definition of Sex
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The Hite Report on Female Sexuality research shows that 94 percent of women can regularly orgasm via self-stimulation (separate stimulation of the exterior vulva or pubis). So why not during sex with a partner? Because the stimulation is not done in the same way. The conclusion? The definition of sex should change to include such stimulation as a normal part of sex. This would also make sex more egalitarian, no longer exaggeratedly focused on penetration and coitus as the high point or climax of sex.
The Hite Report on Female Sexuality presents a large body of research showing that women can easily reach orgasm. The report documents, in women's own voices, how women reach orgasm privately through masturbation. The great majority of women can masturbate to orgasm and do not use penetration during masturbation. The report shows that women do not have a problem reaching orgasm, but rather that society does have a problem in accepting how women reach orgasm. Society insists that women try to have orgasm during intercourse or coitus, even though this is not the easiest way for them to reach orgasm. Clearly, they do not use vaginal stimulation or penetrate themselves during masturbation.
In these days of equality, we could devise a new version of sex, effective for both women and men. Let me try this here.
Prior to my research (and still in some quarters today), it was believed that women have difficulty having orgasm and that women should find vaginal fulfillment by trying to have orgasm during intercourse (it used to be called vaginal orgasm.) Clitoral orgasm was said to be immature and lesser.
Although this idea was overturned by The Hite Report, in recent years it has made a forceable comeback. A so-called g-spot came to stand for the old concept of vaginal orgasm: every women should be able to have orgasm via penetration and stimulation inside the vagina -- if she is a real woman!
As noted, The Hite Report on Female Sexuality showed that most women could orgasm easily and regularly via separate stimulation of the exterior vulva or pubis, and that the definition of sex should change to include such stimulation to orgasm as a normal part of sex. This would make sex more egalitarian. While this research showed that sex should no longer be so exaggeratedly focused on coitus as the sole high point or climax of sex, images of sex in pornography, popular culture and media did not change.
A notion introduced three years after the report further reinforced traditional ideas of sex -- so nothing has to change. It held that a supposed -- but almost never found (!) -- g-spot exists inside the vagina that can lead to clitoral stimulation and female orgasm, if pressed in the right way. This has been seized on by makers of Viagra and Ciallis, among others, opening the door to more pressures on men and women (men should last long enough; women should have orgasm that way.) It puts men and women unnecessarily at odds with each other. The message it sends is that it is not necessary to change the definition of sex in any basic way, and that women should be able to have orgasm via coitus with the g-spot. Although vaginal orgasm, the old term, had been completely ridiculed, here was a trendy, modern way to be a stick-in-the-mud, but still proclaim oneself to be modern, new, and liberated -- supposedly believing in equality and the new powerful woman.
Of course, the vagina is a sensitive and pleasurable organ for women, given the right situation. My research does not deny that, but rather demonstrates that this pleasure does not lead to orgasm for most women. Many women enjoy intercourse as a kind of foreplay, then use specific clitoral massage to orgasm, done systematically and gently.
Society has not been able to quickly overturn centuries of belief about the act, or allowed women to orgasm in their own way. Instead, it has clung to the new trendy term with its old-fashioned idea of sex. Many medical studies show that no specific spot exists. A new view of sex that includes female orgasm via separate stimulation means using one's imagination to change a basic modus vivendi, and offers new possibilities.
How should sex change? At a minimum, both women and men should get the stimulation they need for orgasm. Since women can easily orgasm via their own clitoral-area stimulation during masturbation, the same stimulation (usually by the hand or mouth of the partner) should become an equally important high point to intercourse and penetration in a new version of sex.
But sex can evolve beyond orgasms. Sex can be transformed to become an individual vocabulary of erotic gestures, combining bodies to reach high states of arousal and desire, beyond a quest for orgasms by either woman or man. Sex can become something new, something we have not yet seen, something that we all now create by taking private, very courageous, steps.
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Posted by: Ryan on Aug 12, 2008 12:14 PM
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Posted by: warreno on Aug 12, 2008 12:18 PM
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One thing I've learned, FWIW, is that while women can be multiply orgasmic, men are not quite that fortunate; so when I'm with a partner of a given gender I use that knowledge appropriately.
This means considerably more oral/manual stimulation with women, with a great deal of freedom to climax; with men, I tend to go much more slowly and build things up to the crescendo. In either case the results seem to be rather spectacular and reasonably satisfactory, as well as quite intimate and conducive to good emotional and psychological connection.
I've never found the G-spot, though.
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» RE: Umm. Kay.
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» In addition to the G spot....
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Posted by: pioneer on Aug 12, 2008 12:55 PM
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I described what is now called 'date rape' and it was included in the book.
I think this was phenomenal work and Sherrie Hite has not received the attention and praise that she deserves.
Keep up the good work. You are number 1 to me because you tell the real truth about women's sexuality.
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Posted by: Arlene on Aug 12, 2008 2:05 PM
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Thanks to the virginity cult and lack of birth control I could control, I was terrified of sex when I was young. The only way I could tolerate it was to go somewhere else mentally while the performance was going on.
I think what Ms. Hite is saying is that women figure it out for themselves. Men could probably work less hard if they were less aggressive, instead, encouraging their partner to take the initiate if she is too inhibited to do so on her own.
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Posted by: Uriahz on Aug 12, 2008 3:10 PM
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Some women really do get off, as in have an ORGASM through vaginal and sometimes even anal sex. Why do you have to demean it by calling it 'vaginal fulfillment'? Why all the politicking? 'New definition for sex'. Really? Come on. Sex is not some well-defined encyclopedia entry where a change in definition is going to suddenly make sex awesome. Sex is not black and white, not simple science. The fact is that people are all different, and we're every bit as different sexually from one person to another as we are in temperament, and we don't have to have rigid definitions at all anymore. If sex is penetration to you, fine. If it's any activity where two people get off touching each other's genitals, fine. Doesn't matter.
What does the science say? The vast majority of women are capable of orgasm. Only 1-in-3 women are capable of getting off from vaginal stimulation alone, but most of those girls get off faster, harder, or more often with clitoral stimulation. So if you want your girl to get off, you damn well better be servicing the clitoris.
There. Was that so hard? Why do you need to have a unified standard of sexuality, anyway? I dated one girl whose G-Spot became really swollen with clitoral stimulation. Pressing against that spot once it was really engorged for a couple minutes got her off so hard she'd ejaculate, if you could hold on to her long enough. I'm pretty sure that counts as a vaginal orgasm. Can most women do that? No, probably not. But what's really important is to explore and appreciate your partner's sexuality for what it is, and spend more time playing with each other's genitals. Seeking to 'define' sex means establishing some official 'normal', and that's just crap. The only 'right' way to have sex is to communicate with your partner in such a way that you both get what you want out of the experience, and the only 'wrong' way is to get wrapped up in external expectations of performance or propriety, of achieving normalcy.
So regardless of the many things I'm sure I agree with the author on, like the transcendent possibilities of the sexual experience, and the basics of good sex, I do not think this is a well-written or well-thought article. It's an outdated mindset as much as the conservative viewpoint, different only in kind.
But that's just my two cents.
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» RE: Ladies: Get it off however you can!
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» Thanks!
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Posted by: weGotCactus on Aug 12, 2008 4:33 PM
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Posted by: mnstra on Aug 13, 2008 7:44 PM
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Posted by: Cruella on Aug 14, 2008 1:59 PM
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Posted by: fisher on Aug 14, 2008 8:35 PM
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As a long married person, I also find it ridiculous to talk about female sexual enjoyment without factoring in the male's experience because from what i can see, females are all about relationship. Even I, a male, have discovered that the greatest pleasure from sex comes from enjoying my partner's enjoyment.
Intercourse, done right, for an adequate period, has dynamics that are not involved in quick wham bang thank you maam sex. The genitals become generalized throughout the body and clitoral stimulation merges with vaginal just as penile stimuli become one with the testes, nipples and whatever else is being stimulated. In a committed relationship, at least, in the end the orgasm is a whole body event as two bodies become one. Becoming one is not a trivial idealistic cliche. Not if you're doing it right.
I guess I should admit the world of female sexual enjoyment outside of committed relationships. I would wish sex as a public topic were not a gotcha, quick one-liner medium devoid of instruction or emotional content. Then lonely people would have a better chance of sexual enjoyment. That's where I would focus--not on clitoral stimulation.
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Posted by: beatriceturpin on Aug 15, 2008 5:28 AM
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Posted by: Manimunak on Aug 15, 2008 5:57 AM
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The thesis makes sense for all animals where the cooperation of the female is required for successful coitus and mating.
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Posted by: loxias on Aug 15, 2008 6:18 AM
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If you are going to be militant and draw up a charter, well, that's likely going to end up "shrinking" your list of applicants... no wonder you have to write it all down?
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Posted by: maddy on Aug 15, 2008 6:32 AM
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I used to subscribe to this argument when I was in my late teens, and, in particular, as a college student who was discovering the language, insights, and radicalism of feminism. I too thought that the myth of the vaginal orgasm privileged male-centered sex, ya know the kind George Carlin dubbed the "man-on-top-get-it-overwith-quick" variety.
And I still understand why this argument continues to matter to feminism and issues of gender equality. Yes, most women prefer to climax through surface stimulation of the clitoris. And, yes, historically, male domination of the sciences led to this being pathologized as a sign that a woman hadn't matured. In fact, the worst cases of this were when women were diagnosed as "frigid" for not enjoying vaginal penetration, when in actuality they had endometriosis. So I remember and understand this argument.
I also think that this argument, as another poster mentioned above, has had a real impact in how we have sex. To quote Dan Savage, you should return any offer of sex that doesn't include oral. Manual and oral stimulation of women to orgasm have become more accepted as "standard" sex practice. God bless those secular humanists!
But. !!!!
As so often happens, I have gotten older.
Now I'm in my early 30s.
And I feel so sorry for women who do not experience a G-spot triggered orgasm. MINE exists honey. It's still the clitoris, but it's triggered from underneath.
A surface clitoral orgasm--through manual or oral is lovely. Especially when I just want to go to sleep.
A G-spot triggered orgasm? I usually need to be peeled off the ceiling afterwards. I forget my name, and i've even burst into tears it's so intense. The G-spot takes time and training to wake up, but once it's in the mix, multiple orgasms through vaginal and anal sex are commonplace. For me now, the surface orgasm is just the warm up act, and i've even conditioned myself to need G-spot attention for those. Best self-disclipine of my life!
I would argue that one of the reasons the G-spot hasn't been "discovered" is that women--through well-intentioned efforts by feminists and sex therapists--have been taught to take pride in not preferring penetration, so women don't experiment enough to figure out how to have G-spot arrived orgasms. I also think that many women still feel shame at the idea of penetrating themselves.
But, again, I feel sorry for women who don't have G-spot orgasms. Keep exploring, girls! The truth is out there!
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» Uh, ok
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» Did you read the original essay?
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» RE: Did you read the original essay?
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» Share the love!!!
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» YES! THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE!
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» RE: YES! THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE!
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Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Aug 15, 2008 6:49 AM
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I used to subscribe to Playboy.
The "Advisor" section had many ignorant questions about "how/why/when/where, etc."
I can't believe so many people are so ignorant.
When I was just entering my teens( and entering a few other teens;), I paid attention to the various effects my actions had on my partners.
I also ASKED them what they did/didn't like and other things.
You can't get this from a book and/or an article.
Can you imagine being with someone who is thinking, "OK, I'll do this first like this"?
The stiffness is in the wrong place.lol
I believe that most books/articles are writen for money rather than to actually be useful to others.
If the reverse was actually true, then there would be something written about "afterplay".
When was the last time anyone of you even discussed it?
Afterplay is a wonderfully sexual experience.
So is being a cunning linguist;)
Talk with each other!!
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» RE: If you have to read about it
Posted by: emmas
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Posted by: curiousdwk on Aug 15, 2008 7:19 AM
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And even myself, I prefer masturbation to coital orgasms. I love to have a woman doing things to me while I masturbate. (I much prefer that to masturbating alone.) But again, with intercourse, I seem to be more focused on performance than pure pleasure.
If we're talking about re-definitions, I would like to add that women perhaps need to know how to pleasure a man who is masturbating as I have not found many women who will get actively involved at that time. (Not that I've had that many partners.) I find masturbating myself to be more enjoyable than her performing orally on me. I like that as a prelude, but I don't ejaculate that way. (And I notice most porn stars don't either.) And for a woman to stroke me is nice at first, but seldom will I get off that way.
Allow me to focus on servicing a woman manually and orally, and allow me to be pleasured in my erotic zones while masturbating. I think we'll both be happy.
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» RE: Male the Prefers Non-Coital Orgasms
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Posted by: Elurby on Aug 15, 2008 7:25 AM
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#######
Here's a novel idea:
Return the SACRED to human
sexuality; that is, stop
focusing on GETTING-OFF -
in both men and women - and
begin raising up children
to be LADIES and GENTLEMEN
--to TREAT HUMAN SEXUALITY
as MEANS to PROCREATION,
rather than as means to FUN
and GAMES and VENEREAL
DISEASES.
Hmmm...seems that that had
been the focus before radical
feminism went on the march to
destroy the sacred in human
sexuality.
#######
#######
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» Smoking a little too much crack today?
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» Hilarious Cartoon
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» RE: eturn the Sacred to Human Sexuality
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Posted by: PaulK on Aug 15, 2008 7:39 AM
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How is this: men have quick orgasms (and women can't reach a good stopping point sooner than men) because in evolutionary terms, that's the most efficient way to transfer sperm and produce kids.
I still will go along with the often trumpeted ideal of maximizing pleasure for both partners. One exception: it's not worth using extra-slippery but carcinogenic sexual lubricants. More pleasure right now is not worth a dice roll for an early painful death.
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Aug 15, 2008 7:59 AM
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Wonderful.
I'm all for exploration... believe me.. I really am.... but do we really need some sort of definition for something that is different for every individual and every couple?
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» RE: ah great...
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» Its just proof...
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Posted by: DaBear on Aug 15, 2008 8:38 AM
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I've been with women who preferred internal stimulation and with women who preferred external stimulation. The bottom line for me is, whatever you want, honey, I'm there for ya. Otherwise what's the point?
I agree with the author, that we're long overdue for a definition change. Hell the whole cult-ure needs an enema, really.
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» RE: Sounds good to me, where do we sign up?
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» RE: Sounds good to me, where do we sign up?
Posted by: emmas
» step 1: throw out the word "foreplay"
Posted by: hurricane hugo
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Posted by: Spyder on Aug 15, 2008 9:03 AM
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The Last Horizon
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Posted by: twoten on Aug 15, 2008 9:34 AM
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Now that there are a large number of women who are testosterone-dominant: powrr grrls who gain weight on their bellys, they aren't putting up with that crap. Guys who can't or won't learn how to please a testo-girl will receive anything from instruction to a good firm slapping. If a guy doesn't go down on them they'll find a girl who will.
Personally, I've always known women of every variety to orgasm during coitus. You just have to do it right. Forget about the hard slammed in-and-out that is so common in porn. Learn to do "the bump", a lot of ins and very little outs. The clitoris gets plenty of stimulation and that means everyone gets a happy ending.
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Posted by: logansafi on Aug 15, 2008 9:34 AM
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'The Hite Report on Female Sexuality research shows that 94 percent of women can regularly orgasm via self-stimulation (separate stimulation of the exterior vulva or pubis).'
Really? Not 93%or 95% of women, but 94%, Shere? That does not jive with my experience with women, where most of them are not even masturbating at all. As a man, it would have been a little hard for women I have spent time with to be hiding masturbation from me, and I can't really hide my masturbation from them either. They just mainly have not done it, with only an exception or two.
So I think your key fudge word here is the word 'can', Shere, like in 'can regularly orgasm via self-stimulation'. Maybe perhaps? But 'can' is not in any way saying that they 'do', now is it? However your report misleads people into thinking that this is something normal for women to be be doing, uh '94%' of the time. Says who says it's normal, Shere Hite? You? Might you want women to be merely immitating men, 94% of the time, and have put your own thinking on this and hidden it behind a smoke screen of pseudo science? Maybe?
You might think that it should be normal for them to be doing it, but you just might be wrong you know? I think your commentary and your report is 94% full of your own nonsense, and not with science.
94% of us readers should probably doubt that you are the grand holder of ALL knowledge on this aspect of human sexuality.
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» 94% sounds about right to me
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» I'm going to second that...
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» RE: Shere Hite is 94% full of nonsense
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» You masturbating repliers are not very convincing I am afraid
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» RE: Shere Hite is 94% full of nonsense
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Posted by: truthteller on Aug 15, 2008 9:57 AM
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The one thing I would tell a younger man is to embrace cunnilingus early and often with your female partners, and do it until your tongue goes numb!
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» Like satesfying the audience.
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Posted by: aki_no_kaze on Aug 15, 2008 10:12 AM
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Tantric practices (it is not a religion) focus more on enjoying ALL of sex, not just the WOOHOOO! at the end. You can turn a simple back rub into something intensely sexual, not reach "orgasm" in the traditional sense, and still feel extremely sexually satisfied afterwards... or you can focus the energies in such a way to turn that simple back rub into a string of powerful orgasmic explosions that leave you gasping for air.
"When you focus only on the destination, you lose out on the journey"... this applies as much to sex as it does to a road trip. If all you focus on is the orgasm, you lose out on the enjoyment of the rest of the experience. Most peoples orgasm lasts ~15 seconds from what I've experienced, most intercourse I've had lasted in the 20-30 min range (from foreplay to WOOHOO)... orgasm made up about 0.5-1% of that time... no matter how good they feel I simply can not see why you would allow yourself to miss 99% of the rest of the experience.
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Posted by: nen on Aug 15, 2008 10:15 AM
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I noticed you didn't include a citation here. Or any citations at all. So much for all your research. Clearly it's time for Anatomy 101 again. The G-spot is a bundle of tissues and nerve fibers that in males develops into the prostate gland. It is still present in females to a greater or lesser degree depending on the person. Each person's anatomy is different. I repeat: each person's anatomy is different. I have encountered people who do not enjoy having their clitoris touched by others, either because it is too sensitive or they simply get frustrated with the heavy-handedness of their partner's stimulation. (The list goes on. There are more reasons.)
Ladies and female-bodied folks, if you've tried and tried and can't find your G-spot, don't think there's some freaky anatomical thing going on with you. It may not be close enough to the surface to be stimulated or the nerves may not be sensate enough to give you pleasure. Don't stress it. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong.
Also, Hite, study the Tantra. With so much focus on the orgasm, you're not even dealing with a fraction of what sex is. You want a new definition? You're looking in the wrong place. If you thoroughly enjoyed yourself, felt your inhibitions fly out the window, connected with the other person (or with yourself if you were alone), even if you didn't orgasm, it was still sex. I have stimulated my partner into ecstasy through massage (NOT of the sex organs) and even through hypnotic suggestion. Consider this, can paraplegic people have sex?
On the note of vaginal orgasm, I would like to submit the fact that the nerves of the vagina are usually closer to the surface (ie: can be stimulated more easily) on the reverse side of the perenium. This means, the vaginal nerves are usually more accessible for stimulation through the anus. Now, I know some folks don't like to be stimulated that way for various reasons, but I wish to point out the fact that in discussing vaginal orgasm, you didn't even mention this. So much for your research.
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» The VO is REAL!
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Posted by: Monmon on Aug 15, 2008 2:02 PM
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Posted by: Wessex on Aug 15, 2008 2:28 PM
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Posted by: gazey on Aug 15, 2008 9:08 PM
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I honestly have to say that it would make me much happier, and I DO feel I'm missing out on things. I primarily blame male sexual culture, Christian popular culture that is male dominant (and says sex is for male orgasms and procreation and that women need to quit nagging about anything else), and the ignorance that parents breed in their kids. The attitude of my partner is nothing unusual, I think, though I do hope that it is... and that he's just 50 years behind the times. I am almost certain my mother and aunts have the same issues I have though I could never ask about such things. I just think after my reading and thinking that orgasm IS very important for women... not just for pleasure, but for bonding with partners and those they love.
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» In the immortal words of Dan Savage...
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» Yes, please visit Dan Savage
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» What are you going to do?
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» WHY in the world...
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Posted by: gazey on Aug 15, 2008 9:16 PM
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Posted by: gazey on Aug 15, 2008 9:18 PM
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Thanks for your advice though ;)
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» you could always get yourself
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» RE: )
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Posted by: skewitall on Aug 16, 2008 1:45 AM
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» RE: Yep, the clit
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» RE: Yep, the clit
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» RE: Yep, the clit
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» RE: Yep, the clit
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Posted by: planet doomed on Aug 19, 2008 3:34 PM
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Posted by: kellymeet on Aug 23, 2008 6:40 AM
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Posted by: Andrew_S on Aug 23, 2008 11:14 PM
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Posted by: Ryan on Aug 12, 2008 12:14 PM
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» RE: Thanks for the ...
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» RE: Thanks for the ...
Posted by: Vik
» The trouble is mostly the males...
Posted by: Fog
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Posted by: warreno on Aug 12, 2008 12:18 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One thing I've learned, FWIW, is that while women can be multiply orgasmic, men are not quite that fortunate; so when I'm with a partner of a given gender I use that knowledge appropriately.
This means considerably more oral/manual stimulation with women, with a great deal of freedom to climax; with men, I tend to go much more slowly and build things up to the crescendo. In either case the results seem to be rather spectacular and reasonably satisfactory, as well as quite intimate and conducive to good emotional and psychological connection.
I've never found the G-spot, though.
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» RE: Umm. Kay.
Posted by: Sushi
» In addition to the G spot....
Posted by: Fog
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Posted by: pioneer on Aug 12, 2008 12:55 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I described what is now called 'date rape' and it was included in the book.
I think this was phenomenal work and Sherrie Hite has not received the attention and praise that she deserves.
Keep up the good work. You are number 1 to me because you tell the real truth about women's sexuality.
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Posted by: Arlene on Aug 12, 2008 2:05 PM
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Thanks to the virginity cult and lack of birth control I could control, I was terrified of sex when I was young. The only way I could tolerate it was to go somewhere else mentally while the performance was going on.
I think what Ms. Hite is saying is that women figure it out for themselves. Men could probably work less hard if they were less aggressive, instead, encouraging their partner to take the initiate if she is too inhibited to do so on her own.
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Posted by: Uriahz on Aug 12, 2008 3:10 PM
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Some women really do get off, as in have an ORGASM through vaginal and sometimes even anal sex. Why do you have to demean it by calling it 'vaginal fulfillment'? Why all the politicking? 'New definition for sex'. Really? Come on. Sex is not some well-defined encyclopedia entry where a change in definition is going to suddenly make sex awesome. Sex is not black and white, not simple science. The fact is that people are all different, and we're every bit as different sexually from one person to another as we are in temperament, and we don't have to have rigid definitions at all anymore. If sex is penetration to you, fine. If it's any activity where two people get off touching each other's genitals, fine. Doesn't matter.
What does the science say? The vast majority of women are capable of orgasm. Only 1-in-3 women are capable of getting off from vaginal stimulation alone, but most of those girls get off faster, harder, or more often with clitoral stimulation. So if you want your girl to get off, you damn well better be servicing the clitoris.
There. Was that so hard? Why do you need to have a unified standard of sexuality, anyway? I dated one girl whose G-Spot became really swollen with clitoral stimulation. Pressing against that spot once it was really engorged for a couple minutes got her off so hard she'd ejaculate, if you could hold on to her long enough. I'm pretty sure that counts as a vaginal orgasm. Can most women do that? No, probably not. But what's really important is to explore and appreciate your partner's sexuality for what it is, and spend more time playing with each other's genitals. Seeking to 'define' sex means establishing some official 'normal', and that's just crap. The only 'right' way to have sex is to communicate with your partner in such a way that you both get what you want out of the experience, and the only 'wrong' way is to get wrapped up in external expectations of performance or propriety, of achieving normalcy.
So regardless of the many things I'm sure I agree with the author on, like the transcendent possibilities of the sexual experience, and the basics of good sex, I do not think this is a well-written or well-thought article. It's an outdated mindset as much as the conservative viewpoint, different only in kind.
But that's just my two cents.
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» RE: Ladies: Get it off however you can!
Posted by: mr. joshua
» RE: I'd rather have a little less Ideologue in my Science
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» Thanks!
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» RE: I'd rather have a little less Ideologue in my Science
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Posted by: weGotCactus on Aug 12, 2008 4:33 PM
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» RE: Kind of sad, actually
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Posted by: mnstra on Aug 13, 2008 7:44 PM
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» RE: ba
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Posted by: Cruella on Aug 14, 2008 1:59 PM
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Posted by: fisher on Aug 14, 2008 8:35 PM
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As a long married person, I also find it ridiculous to talk about female sexual enjoyment without factoring in the male's experience because from what i can see, females are all about relationship. Even I, a male, have discovered that the greatest pleasure from sex comes from enjoying my partner's enjoyment.
Intercourse, done right, for an adequate period, has dynamics that are not involved in quick wham bang thank you maam sex. The genitals become generalized throughout the body and clitoral stimulation merges with vaginal just as penile stimuli become one with the testes, nipples and whatever else is being stimulated. In a committed relationship, at least, in the end the orgasm is a whole body event as two bodies become one. Becoming one is not a trivial idealistic cliche. Not if you're doing it right.
I guess I should admit the world of female sexual enjoyment outside of committed relationships. I would wish sex as a public topic were not a gotcha, quick one-liner medium devoid of instruction or emotional content. Then lonely people would have a better chance of sexual enjoyment. That's where I would focus--not on clitoral stimulation.
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» RE: fisher
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» RE: fisher
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» RE: fisher
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Posted by: beatriceturpin on Aug 15, 2008 5:28 AM
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Posted by: Manimunak on Aug 15, 2008 5:57 AM
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The thesis makes sense for all animals where the cooperation of the female is required for successful coitus and mating.
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Posted by: loxias on Aug 15, 2008 6:18 AM
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If you are going to be militant and draw up a charter, well, that's likely going to end up "shrinking" your list of applicants... no wonder you have to write it all down?
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Posted by: maddy on Aug 15, 2008 6:32 AM
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I used to subscribe to this argument when I was in my late teens, and, in particular, as a college student who was discovering the language, insights, and radicalism of feminism. I too thought that the myth of the vaginal orgasm privileged male-centered sex, ya know the kind George Carlin dubbed the "man-on-top-get-it-overwith-quick" variety.
And I still understand why this argument continues to matter to feminism and issues of gender equality. Yes, most women prefer to climax through surface stimulation of the clitoris. And, yes, historically, male domination of the sciences led to this being pathologized as a sign that a woman hadn't matured. In fact, the worst cases of this were when women were diagnosed as "frigid" for not enjoying vaginal penetration, when in actuality they had endometriosis. So I remember and understand this argument.
I also think that this argument, as another poster mentioned above, has had a real impact in how we have sex. To quote Dan Savage, you should return any offer of sex that doesn't include oral. Manual and oral stimulation of women to orgasm have become more accepted as "standard" sex practice. God bless those secular humanists!
But. !!!!
As so often happens, I have gotten older.
Now I'm in my early 30s.
And I feel so sorry for women who do not experience a G-spot triggered orgasm. MINE exists honey. It's still the clitoris, but it's triggered from underneath.
A surface clitoral orgasm--through manual or oral is lovely. Especially when I just want to go to sleep.
A G-spot triggered orgasm? I usually need to be peeled off the ceiling afterwards. I forget my name, and i've even burst into tears it's so intense. The G-spot takes time and training to wake up, but once it's in the mix, multiple orgasms through vaginal and anal sex are commonplace. For me now, the surface orgasm is just the warm up act, and i've even conditioned myself to need G-spot attention for those. Best self-disclipine of my life!
I would argue that one of the reasons the G-spot hasn't been "discovered" is that women--through well-intentioned efforts by feminists and sex therapists--have been taught to take pride in not preferring penetration, so women don't experiment enough to figure out how to have G-spot arrived orgasms. I also think that many women still feel shame at the idea of penetrating themselves.
But, again, I feel sorry for women who don't have G-spot orgasms. Keep exploring, girls! The truth is out there!
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» Uh, ok
Posted by: emmas
» Did you read the original essay?
Posted by: maddy
» RE: Did you read the original essay?
Posted by: emmas
» Share the love!!!
Posted by: maddy
» YES! THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE!
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» RE: YES! THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE!
Posted by: meeneecat
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Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Aug 15, 2008 6:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I used to subscribe to Playboy.
The "Advisor" section had many ignorant questions about "how/why/when/where, etc."
I can't believe so many people are so ignorant.
When I was just entering my teens( and entering a few other teens;), I paid attention to the various effects my actions had on my partners.
I also ASKED them what they did/didn't like and other things.
You can't get this from a book and/or an article.
Can you imagine being with someone who is thinking, "OK, I'll do this first like this"?
The stiffness is in the wrong place.lol
I believe that most books/articles are writen for money rather than to actually be useful to others.
If the reverse was actually true, then there would be something written about "afterplay".
When was the last time anyone of you even discussed it?
Afterplay is a wonderfully sexual experience.
So is being a cunning linguist;)
Talk with each other!!
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» RE: If you have to read about it
Posted by: emmas
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Posted by: curiousdwk on Aug 15, 2008 7:19 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And even myself, I prefer masturbation to coital orgasms. I love to have a woman doing things to me while I masturbate. (I much prefer that to masturbating alone.) But again, with intercourse, I seem to be more focused on performance than pure pleasure.
If we're talking about re-definitions, I would like to add that women perhaps need to know how to pleasure a man who is masturbating as I have not found many women who will get actively involved at that time. (Not that I've had that many partners.) I find masturbating myself to be more enjoyable than her performing orally on me. I like that as a prelude, but I don't ejaculate that way. (And I notice most porn stars don't either.) And for a woman to stroke me is nice at first, but seldom will I get off that way.
Allow me to focus on servicing a woman manually and orally, and allow me to be pleasured in my erotic zones while masturbating. I think we'll both be happy.
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» RE: Male the Prefers Non-Coital Orgasms
Posted by: demonista
» RE: Male the Prefers Non-Coital Orgasms
Posted by: Noella
» RE: Male the Prefers Non-Coital Orgasms
Posted by: meeneecat
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Posted by: Elurby on Aug 15, 2008 7:25 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
#######
Here's a novel idea:
Return the SACRED to human
sexuality; that is, stop
focusing on GETTING-OFF -
in both men and women - and
begin raising up children
to be LADIES and GENTLEMEN
--to TREAT HUMAN SEXUALITY
as MEANS to PROCREATION,
rather than as means to FUN
and GAMES and VENEREAL
DISEASES.
Hmmm...seems that that had
been the focus before radical
feminism went on the march to
destroy the sacred in human
sexuality.
#######
#######
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» There's nothing "sacred" about sex
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» RE: There's nothing "sacred" about sex
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» RE: There's nothing "sacred" about sex
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» RE: There's nothing "sacred" about sex
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» What's so sacred about being frigid?
Posted by: janvdb
» RE: What's so sacred about being frigid?
Posted by: aki_no_kaze
» Smoking a little too much crack today?
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» Hilarious Cartoon
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» RE: eturn the Sacred to Human Sexuality
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» RE: eturn the Sacred to Human Sexuality
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» RE: eturn the Sacred to Human Sexuality
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» RE: eturn the Sacred to Human Sexuality
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» RE: eturn the Sacred to Human Sexuality
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Posted by: PaulK on Aug 15, 2008 7:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How is this: men have quick orgasms (and women can't reach a good stopping point sooner than men) because in evolutionary terms, that's the most efficient way to transfer sperm and produce kids.
I still will go along with the often trumpeted ideal of maximizing pleasure for both partners. One exception: it's not worth using extra-slippery but carcinogenic sexual lubricants. More pleasure right now is not worth a dice roll for an early painful death.
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Aug 15, 2008 7:59 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wonderful.
I'm all for exploration... believe me.. I really am.... but do we really need some sort of definition for something that is different for every individual and every couple?
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» RE: ah great...
Posted by: 2scidrks
» Its just proof...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: DaBear on Aug 15, 2008 8:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've been with women who preferred internal stimulation and with women who preferred external stimulation. The bottom line for me is, whatever you want, honey, I'm there for ya. Otherwise what's the point?
I agree with the author, that we're long overdue for a definition change. Hell the whole cult-ure needs an enema, really.
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» RE: Sounds good to me, where do we sign up?
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: Sounds good to me, where do we sign up?
Posted by: emmas
» step 1: throw out the word "foreplay"
Posted by: hurricane hugo
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Posted by: Spyder on Aug 15, 2008 9:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Last Horizon
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Posted by: twoten on Aug 15, 2008 9:34 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now that there are a large number of women who are testosterone-dominant: powrr grrls who gain weight on their bellys, they aren't putting up with that crap. Guys who can't or won't learn how to please a testo-girl will receive anything from instruction to a good firm slapping. If a guy doesn't go down on them they'll find a girl who will.
Personally, I've always known women of every variety to orgasm during coitus. You just have to do it right. Forget about the hard slammed in-and-out that is so common in porn. Learn to do "the bump", a lot of ins and very little outs. The clitoris gets plenty of stimulation and that means everyone gets a happy ending.
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Posted by: logansafi on Aug 15, 2008 9:34 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
'The Hite Report on Female Sexuality research shows that 94 percent of women can regularly orgasm via self-stimulation (separate stimulation of the exterior vulva or pubis).'
Really? Not 93%or 95% of women, but 94%, Shere? That does not jive with my experience with women, where most of them are not even masturbating at all. As a man, it would have been a little hard for women I have spent time with to be hiding masturbation from me, and I can't really hide my masturbation from them either. They just mainly have not done it, with only an exception or two.
So I think your key fudge word here is the word 'can', Shere, like in 'can regularly orgasm via self-stimulation'. Maybe perhaps? But 'can' is not in any way saying that they 'do', now is it? However your report misleads people into thinking that this is something normal for women to be be doing, uh '94%' of the time. Says who says it's normal, Shere Hite? You? Might you want women to be merely immitating men, 94% of the time, and have put your own thinking on this and hidden it behind a smoke screen of pseudo science? Maybe?
You might think that it should be normal for them to be doing it, but you just might be wrong you know? I think your commentary and your report is 94% full of your own nonsense, and not with science.
94% of us readers should probably doubt that you are the grand holder of ALL knowledge on this aspect of human sexuality.
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» 94% sounds about right to me
Posted by: aki_no_kaze
» I'm going to second that...
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» RE: I'm going to third that...
Posted by: Gypsi
» RE: Shere Hite is 94% full of nonsense
Posted by: nen
» You masturbating repliers are not very convincing I am afraid
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» RE: You masturbating repliers are not very convincing I am afraid
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» RE: Shere Hite is 94% full of nonsense
Posted by: meeneecat
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Posted by: truthteller on Aug 15, 2008 9:57 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The one thing I would tell a younger man is to embrace cunnilingus early and often with your female partners, and do it until your tongue goes numb!
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» Like satesfying the audience.
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» RE: Y'know, there are legitimate uses for Porn...
Posted by: anneliese-nyc
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Posted by: aki_no_kaze on Aug 15, 2008 10:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tantric practices (it is not a religion) focus more on enjoying ALL of sex, not just the WOOHOOO! at the end. You can turn a simple back rub into something intensely sexual, not reach "orgasm" in the traditional sense, and still feel extremely sexually satisfied afterwards... or you can focus the energies in such a way to turn that simple back rub into a string of powerful orgasmic explosions that leave you gasping for air.
"When you focus only on the destination, you lose out on the journey"... this applies as much to sex as it does to a road trip. If all you focus on is the orgasm, you lose out on the enjoyment of the rest of the experience. Most peoples orgasm lasts ~15 seconds from what I've experienced, most intercourse I've had lasted in the 20-30 min range (from foreplay to WOOHOO)... orgasm made up about 0.5-1% of that time... no matter how good they feel I simply can not see why you would allow yourself to miss 99% of the rest of the experience.
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Posted by: nen on Aug 15, 2008 10:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I noticed you didn't include a citation here. Or any citations at all. So much for all your research. Clearly it's time for Anatomy 101 again. The G-spot is a bundle of tissues and nerve fibers that in males develops into the prostate gland. It is still present in females to a greater or lesser degree depending on the person. Each person's anatomy is different. I repeat: each person's anatomy is different. I have encountered people who do not enjoy having their clitoris touched by others, either because it is too sensitive or they simply get frustrated with the heavy-handedness of their partner's stimulation. (The list goes on. There are more reasons.)
Ladies and female-bodied folks, if you've tried and tried and can't find your G-spot, don't think there's some freaky anatomical thing going on with you. It may not be close enough to the surface to be stimulated or the nerves may not be sensate enough to give you pleasure. Don't stress it. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong.
Also, Hite, study the Tantra. With so much focus on the orgasm, you're not even dealing with a fraction of what sex is. You want a new definition? You're looking in the wrong place. If you thoroughly enjoyed yourself, felt your inhibitions fly out the window, connected with the other person (or with yourself if you were alone), even if you didn't orgasm, it was still sex. I have stimulated my partner into ecstasy through massage (NOT of the sex organs) and even through hypnotic suggestion. Consider this, can paraplegic people have sex?
On the note of vaginal orgasm, I would like to submit the fact that the nerves of the vagina are usually closer to the surface (ie: can be stimulated more easily) on the reverse side of the perenium. This means, the vaginal nerves are usually more accessible for stimulation through the anus. Now, I know some folks don't like to be stimulated that way for various reasons, but I wish to point out the fact that in discussing vaginal orgasm, you didn't even mention this. So much for your research.
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» The VO is REAL!
Posted by: morticia
» RE: 1 in 3 Ain't Bad
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Posted by: Monmon on Aug 15, 2008 2:02 PM
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Posted by: Wessex on Aug 15, 2008 2:28 PM
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Posted by: gazey on Aug 15, 2008 9:08 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I honestly have to say that it would make me much happier, and I DO feel I'm missing out on things. I primarily blame male sexual culture, Christian popular culture that is male dominant (and says sex is for male orgasms and procreation and that women need to quit nagging about anything else), and the ignorance that parents breed in their kids. The attitude of my partner is nothing unusual, I think, though I do hope that it is... and that he's just 50 years behind the times. I am almost certain my mother and aunts have the same issues I have though I could never ask about such things. I just think after my reading and thinking that orgasm IS very important for women... not just for pleasure, but for bonding with partners and those they love.
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» In the immortal words of Dan Savage...
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» Yes, please visit Dan Savage
Posted by: maddy
» What are you going to do?
Posted by: suprmark
» WHY in the world...
Posted by: Genevieve
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Posted by: gazey on Aug 15, 2008 9:16 PM
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Posted by: gazey on Aug 15, 2008 9:18 PM
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Thanks for your advice though ;)
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» you could always get yourself
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: )
Posted by: Genevieve
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Posted by: skewitall on Aug 16, 2008 1:45 AM
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» RE: Yep, the clit
Posted by: skewitall
» RE: Yep, the clit
Posted by: skewitall
» RE: Yep, the clit
Posted by: Gypsi
» RE: Yep, the clit
Posted by: skewitall
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Posted by: planet doomed on Aug 19, 2008 3:34 PM
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Posted by: kellymeet on Aug 23, 2008 6:40 AM
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Posted by: Andrew_S on Aug 23, 2008 11:14 PM
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'Reality' Show Lets You Decide If Women Get Abortions?
Sex Addiction: A B.S. Excuse for Not Thinking
Why Do People Want to Have Sex with the 9-Foot Tall Natives in 'Avatar'?




