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Sex and Relationships

Strange Bedfellows: Can Feminism and Porn Coexist?

By Nikko Snyder, Bitch Magazine. Posted April 7, 2008.


Progressive directors are challenging the misogyny that pervades most mainstream porn. But is it possible to make pornography feminist?

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When it comes to pornography, it's safe to assume one thing: Whatever you choose to say on the subject, nearly everyone will disagree with at least part it. Add feminism to the mix and you're pretty much guaranteed a brawl. Chanelle Gallant understands this as well as anyone. "You're probably the first interviewer who didn't start with the question, 'Aren't feminism and porn oxymorons?'" she jokes over the phone. Gallant is the creator of the Feminist Porn Awards, an event held annually in Toronto since 2006. She and the other folks at Good For Her (a feminist-owned and -operated sex shop in Toronto) launched the awards as a response to the racism in mainstream pornography. "We were complaining about how we had to send back all these DVDs because they had the most egregious racial stereotyping in them," she explains. "I said something like, 'It's really too bad that nobody recognizes the filmmakers who are making an effort to do something better.'

The awards recognize sexually explicit films that fulfill at least two of three criteria: first, a woman is substantially involved with the making of the film; second, the film depicts genuine female pleasure; and third, it expands the range of sexual expression for women by telling us something new about female sexuality. Categories range from Hottest Group Sex Scene to Hottest Diverse Cast to Hottest Trans Sex Scene; winning filmmakers and performers travel to Toronto from across North America to accept butt plug-shaped trophies.

Folks working within the adult industry to radically challenge porn's mainstream image is nothing new -- the likes of Annie Sprinkle and Carol Queen have been at it for years. And yet, one pesky problem remains unresolved: the question of what it takes, practically speaking, for feminism and porn films to coexist. If there's no sticker on the front of a DVD identifying it as Fair Trade porn, how can I know if it was produced in a way that I can support? What if I do know it was produced ethically, but I don't find the content compelling or hot? And if I identify material as non-feminist and still find it hot, does that damn me forever to the realm of the Guilty Bad Feminists? Finally, even if by some miracle I manage to reconcile all these contradictions for myself, is the adult industry as a whole showing any indication of evolving past the most token and self-serving co-option of feminism?

I tracked down five of the filmmakers whose work was honored at the 2007 Feminist Porn Awards to find out what they think sets their work apart -- and whether they'd classify it as pornography to begin with. From hetero white men making documentaries to queer black women making mockumentaries, gonzo reality to story-driven hip hop rom-coms, the only obvious commonality is explicit, unsimulated sex -- and for many, that's enough to call them porn. For some, it may also be enough to call them nonfeminist. But in speaking to the filmmakers, it became clear that in the world of onscreen sex, labels are carefully applied.

Venus Hottentot defines pornography as sexually explicit material designed to titillate, and because the intention of her film Afrodite Superstar is to tell a story that happens to involve sex, she prefers the term "sex film." She explains, "I wanted people to engage in an intellectual manner, in an entertaining manner, and then if it was going to titillate that was going to be, quite honestly, the third thing on my list." Tony Comstock, too, finds the term "pornography" troubling. Comstock works with his wife, Peggy, to produce explicit documentary-style features about real-life lovers, and he laments that, "pornography is, in large measure, about what sex looks like, without exploring everything else that sex is. If you want to try to reach beyond that both physically and metaphysically, the word "porn" becomes very limiting."

According to Audacia Ray, director of the The Bi Apple as well as a sex educator and sex workers-rights activist, "Feminist porn is, for me, much more about the production end of things than it is about what is actually onscreen. It's about the ability of the people performing the porn to negotiate what they're doing." For Ray, producing feminist porn involves paying performers above the industry standard, using condoms and covering the costs of HIV testing (neither of which are industry standards), getting input from her cast about what they want to do before they arrive on set, and avoiding surprising actors with last-minute requests.


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Strange questions
Posted by: talkville on Apr 8, 2008 2:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps I'm out of turn, as I am male and I understand Feminism to be at least circumscribed within the sphere of the female (in its biologic and also socially constructed dimensions). It seems to me a bit strange to form a question as to whether or not feminism can or cannot 'co-exist' with porn. If it cannot, the necessary conclusion would be that it is NOT engaged in Reality-- which would not be a desirable thing for feminism. Porn exists, whether feminism can or cannot coexist with it. Existence would make it necessary for feminists to confront the issue of porn or to simply ignore reality. "Head-on, apply directly to the Forehead" as that annoying advertisement admonishes.

But having a solidarity at least with some feminists, I certainly hope that feminism and those engaged in its efforts confronts porn dynamically, socially, culturally, economically and politically in ALL those dynamic and dialectical relations. There ARE issues of exploitation, objectification, reification, and commodification and others which are very relevant to porn, whether positive or negative, whether male or female, whether produced or enacted.

In short, I think it would be disastrous if feminism focuses too narrowly and superficially on the mechanics and production of porn without simultaneously always engaging the deeper and more substantial issues that affect us all. Most especially in times we now are living in.

Just my opinion; it's for you feminists to hash it out amongst yourselves. And please co-exist with it; to do otherwise and deny it would lead nowhere but to irrelevance.

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» RE: Strange questions Posted by: Lu Gubrious
» RE: Strange questions Posted by: talkville
Ah, great....
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Apr 8, 2008 6:44 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yet ANOTHER article on feminism and porn from Alternet.

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» RE: Ah, great.... Posted by: oregoncharles
jeepers
Posted by: 23skidoo on Apr 9, 2008 1:44 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The real question is, can feminism and open toed shoes coexist?

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» RE: jeepers Posted by: cherylsass123
Feminist Porn?
Posted by: Gainful on Apr 9, 2008 3:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am male, and I find the abusive type of porn to be appalling, yet I know women who are totally turned on by it, which makes me think that the concept of “Feminist Porn” is a Red Herring. There is porn you like, and porn you don't like, simple as that.
Having said that, I do think that the porn industry would benefit from more female influence in their productions, at the very least, I would enjoy it more.

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Porn is great...
Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 9, 2008 5:01 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And it isn't going anywhere. So I think it is also great that feminists are working within the biz and helping to make sure standards for women remain high. It is a bit like Fair Trade or trade unions and co-ops: all great ideas that are more effective by participating in the economy, than by shouting from the sidelines.

There is an amazing femnist-run porn site that is I think the role model for the future: www.abbywinters.com. It is great in everyway: healthy, positive, and fun.

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» porn is FANTASTIC Posted by: abbadon2007
LoL
Posted by: Mexitli on Apr 9, 2008 6:02 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
hilarious!

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Ask yourself...
Posted by: Ipsi Dixit on Apr 9, 2008 6:07 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... Can child pornography and childrens rights co-exist?
If you've answered 'no' to the question then they answer to the question of whether womens rights/feminism can co-exist with something that objectifies them and, by extension, all women, should also be 'no'. Any other answer is hypocrisy.

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» RE: Ask yourself... Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Ask yourself... Posted by: Anon12
» RE: Ask yourself... Posted by: marilee
» RE: Ask yourself... Posted by: Anon12
» RE: Ask yourself... Posted by: Libsrule
» RE: Ask yourself... Posted by: emmas
» RE: Ask yourself... Posted by: Anon12
» RE: Ask yourself... Posted by: DeeOhGee
» RE: Ask yourself... Posted by: emmas
» Debunk'd Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: Debunk'd Posted by: Anon12
» I'll tell you this Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: I'll tell you this Posted by: Anon12
» Keep in mind, please... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Eloquent take on the issue Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» Thank you Posted by: JoshuaLudd
This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
Ummm ...
Posted by: redbridge on Apr 9, 2008 7:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Y'know what? I'll be back later

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Can Free Speech and Feminism coexist
Posted by: flemming47 on Apr 9, 2008 8:03 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, of course not for feminism was established to allow unattractive women access to the mainstream of society but since men would rather watch babes fornicating than ‘liberated’ women talking, the fight between natural urges and political correctness goes on.

Now Porn outlived the Spanish Inquisition and the puritan evangelical Protestant nonsense and Porn will surely outlive a little Stalinist engineering of our society.

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Real reporting,
Posted by: oregoncharles on Apr 9, 2008 9:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
actually informative, on a subject where that is rare.

Thank you.

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
Maddox Debunking, lite version
Posted by: meetmeineleusis on Apr 9, 2008 9:22 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why would anyone do anything that's degrading to themselves? Would you strip down in front of a crowd of people? Probably not. But would you do it if they were paying you $250 per hour? Or if they paid you $1000 per hour? Maybe then. It doesn't seem so degrading when there's a huge incentive for you to do it. So why do some feminist extremists think pornography is degrading to women? Obviously the women in pornography don't think it's degrading, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Their dignity has a price, and they were willing to sell it. They don't represent all women in general, but only the few who chose to go into that business, just as women who choose not to go into pornography don't represent the women who do. So the phrase "pornography is degrading to women" doesn't make sense.

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» My theory is that Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: My theory is that Posted by: abbadon2007
This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
» RE: Different beliefs but the same methods Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: "loving porn" is an oxymoron Posted by: notthatsimple
» Thanks meetmeineleusis Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Thanks meetmeineleusis Posted by: Blue Heron
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» RE: Thanks meetmeineleusis Posted by: meetmeineleusis
Not all the same
Posted by: auio on Apr 9, 2008 10:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One might as well ask "can feminism and film coexist"? The question makes just about as much sense. Some films are generally offensive in various ways and some are not. Similarly, some sexual films are icky and some are not. But there is no point in wondering if all films with sex in them are bad. Unless you think that sex is bad, or that any topic is OK for films EXCEPT we can't see people having sex because that aspect of the human experience is completely forbidden.

I've seen plenty of films with people laughing and having a great time, and its hard to find the harm in that. What function does it serve to lump a whole bunch of different things together as one? But there were people who thought all film was evil when it first became popular, so I suppose this is similar.

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Yeah, well...how about pro-choice?
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Apr 9, 2008 2:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You let humans (including feminsts) choose whether or not to do porn, and you let other humans choose to accept it or turn it off.

Gee, a pro-choice approach? How novel?

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Teaching tool
Posted by: EJW on Apr 9, 2008 3:04 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Have you ever just talked to him or them about porn? Watched it with them and shared feelings about it. Rather then try to force your point of view on them, tired to understand theirs. It seems to me that the more forbidden you make it, the more they will want to see what it's all about. The important thing to understand here is what they are thinking when they watch porn. Is it their only source of information about sex and women? Being a feminist, in my opinion, is about being open to new ideas of relating and being. If you insist that one idea is the answer then you will necessarily lose the people you most want to influence. You need to understand the other side (so to speak) before you can even start to change minds.

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What a woman wants to see
Posted by: SalB on Apr 9, 2008 10:11 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
*A* woman, me. I'm tired of watching other women have sex and only seeing the headless body of some guy. I love to see and hear the reactions of the men. Because that's how I observe sex, so thats really all porn has to do to be feminist, shoot it from the perspective of the woman for once, not the man.

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» RE: What a woman wants to see Posted by: elmysterio
" anti-porn/anti-free love feminism" maybe that's what went wrong with REAL[ 1970's] FEMINISM?
Posted by: cherylsass123 on Apr 9, 2008 10:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when I read this article, I was like, yeah!! you go grrrrls! I know! I know! one often hears how feminism and "porn" do NOT mix from there modern feminists. but honestly, I have to admit that many self-titled "liberated" women seem to be so uptight about sex and they are the ones whom seem to feel that porn and feminism do not mix! okay, I'm a transsexual woman, and so, I've lived on both sides of the gender experience. going back to about 1986/87 when I lived in orlando, FL [still living what was for me, as an MTF-TS; the" male" lie] ; I remember saying to this supposedly liberated woman; " you know something? I wish that I was born a [ biological]woman!" when she had asked, "why do you feel that way" ; my answer was "this ad in the orlando sentinel said michael J peter was hiring for his topless clubs and honestly, if I was a girl I'd dance topless for $3,000 + in salary and tips per week! it'd be a hell of a lot better then working at disney world for $6.04 an hour!" her face had this disgusted look upon it like what I said was " offensive, but still, she asked me " but why would you want to degrade your body like that if you were a woman?" my answer: " I just can not understand why women are so uptight about sex and their bodies! I'd love to be born again as a woman, just so I could show women that they do not have to be so uptight. ISN'T THAT WHAT REAL, 1970'S FEMINISM WAS ALL ABOUT?" well, little did she , I bet, figure on what I was getting at, but even back then, I had this sincere curiousity what life would've been like as a female- something that many transsexual women do long before they come out; less then a year later, I began to prefer using unisex restrooms so I could, well, you know? "sit down to better understand womenhood." fast foward 21 years to 2008. I am legally female on CT driver's lic., on HRT for close to 2 years, and living my fantasy in real life. while not fully " passable" I wear skirts/dresses, or heels w/ jeans. recently, I was at a gay man friend's party- and well, being the uninhibited transwoman I am, bared my breasts while dancing; thinking " why can't women be sexual?" needless to say, I upset a few of his younger, lesbian friends as well as his new partner- to the point that they were all "offended by my behavior" but as a liberated FEMINIST, MS. Magazine reading bi-lesbian transwoman- I am okay with my choosing to be a "slut" at times, and so, this article hit home! why can't a woman be both feminist and sexually open-minded? looking back to the 60's didn't mama cass of the mammas/papas say something like " you don't understand! but a girl, like me, can't love just one man!" to me, cass was a true feminist!

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Kevin Straw
Posted by: Kevin Straw on Apr 10, 2008 4:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It all depends what you mean by feminism. If you take the position that all activity in a male dominated world is inherently anti-feminine, then it is a feminist issue. But if you say that any (legal) activity entered into freely and knowingly by a woman is OK, then it isn't. On the other (third) hand you might say that porn is the commodification of sexual acitivity, and that seems to me of concern to men and women equally.

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only if
Posted by: Fade on Apr 10, 2008 6:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
it's girl on girl

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Feminism and Porn yet again on Alternet
Posted by: ladmeaux on Apr 10, 2008 10:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think that the recurring interest, indeed almost obsession, with feminism and porn on Alternet is a testimony to feminism's inability to come to terms with porn. And the fact that porn, at least in this country, is far more popular than feminism. But that's kind of like saying that football is more popular than Post-Modernism. I guess what I'm attempting to say is that feminism, despite various theories an attempts to produce "PC" porn, is utterly fangless when confronted with one of the world's oldest vices.

It would be good for Alternet to stop focusing so narrowly on a few issues (feminism, the election, racism) and spread their perspective out across the globe. There needs to be more focus on issues and events in South Asia, Southeast Asia, East Asia, North Africa, sub-Sahara Africa and other parts of the world. Today Nepal is holding historic elections. You wouldn't know it by reading this site.

And a lot of the columnists are just irrelevent.

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is it good?
Posted by: bluebirdella on Apr 10, 2008 7:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Feminist porn would be porn that is actually fun to watch. So far, there isn't any.

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» Fun to watch for WHOM? Posted by: JoshuaLudd
continued...
Posted by: Lu Gubrious on Apr 10, 2008 8:12 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I appreciate any recognition of the exploitation and commodification, etc. that are the not just negatives but distinct realities of porn. The question is, how does porn deal with female desire? We all know the answer is along the lines of, "rather crudely."
Just understand that Feminism takes it every time when dealing with issues of female desire on highly sophisticated levels way beyond what is generally recognized or credited.

Subcribing to the ridiculous stereotype/fantasy of Feminists as some 19th century asexual spinster prude (not nearly exciting as the much friendlier, passive recipient of whatever the trade-offs exploitation and commodification, a.k.a the transformation of relationships, offer.) Most of Feminism has been centered on the study of women who love and enjoy all kinds of sex and fantasy. Perhaps sometimes dehumanization is liberating. Most consistently dehumanized peoples have to regularly struggle for liberation. Until transformed into passive receptors ready for viewing, most people are not often seen as very sexy.

If being critical of the porn industry as the constant companion to corporate patriarchy and the standardization of desire and fantasy, is equated to being irrelevant and unrealistic, than I much prefer the fantasy world of the Feminist.

As a parting come shot, why not understand that Feminism is not going away. There will always be women who want to have equality with men in the dynamics of viewing pleasure, sexual participation, and economics. Anybody who thinks that women have conquered the status quo and are on the same stage with their "leading men" are delusional. To assert this fact, is still the ultimate taboo.

Thus if one doesn't join in the "hashing out" of how women are represented in pornography, then one's critical thinking skills are deeply irrelevant in reality. In the meantime, one can hash it out with oneself and one's own fantasies.

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» RE: continued... Posted by: elmysterio
Prominent RadFem "Biting Beaver" has this to say:
Posted by: meetmeineleusis on Apr 11, 2008 4:08 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Several years ago my accountability program found that the computer had been accessing pornography. Turns out it was my middle son. To date he has been 'caught' accessing pornography many times since then. He was 13 I think when this started.

"I banned him from the computer, but after a few months I would allow him to be on it for short periods of time. Each and every single time my son would access pornography within days (and sometimes hours) of being allowed back online. He was aware that he would be caught because the computers are monitored but he chose to do it anyway.

"Most recently my youngest son allowed my middle son to play with his PSP. Brandon (the middle child) used it to immediately access pornography online. The child is now banned from computers, video games and so forth. I've talked until I'm blue in the face, I've grown angry and yelled, I've cried when I was alone and when I was in front of him. I've had him read Dworkin, my site, and other places (namely OAG's site) and I still can't unseat this problem. He can recite feminist literature all day long, he can understand the tenets, the ideas behind it, how it links together but he will not allow this knowledge to stand in the way of his porn use.

"I don't think I'm looking for advice (I've tried everything I could think of so far) but more a place to simply be sad. I can clearly see why he's looking at pornography, I've figured all that out readily enough, but I can't seem to make it stop.
Her blog features BitingBeaver's fursona biting through the heart of patriarchy, represented by the wooden penis.
Her blog features BitingBeaver's fursona biting through the heart of patriarchy, represented by the wooden penis.

"I know, that as soon as my child leaves my home and moves into his own place that he will be looking at porn immediately. I know that I am raising a problem for women. I know that this child will one day grow and will fully absorb the messages that porn sends to men. I know that my child masturbates to degradation of my people (when I use that phrase I mean womyn) and that with every orgasm he will further solidify his own hatred of and superiority over, women.

"I know that there will likely come a day where my son coerces a young woman into sex (rape) and there isn't a damned thing I can do about it. I look into the eyes of my son and they still sparkle like they did when he was a baby, but he's not a baby anymore, he's growing into a man and that man will have trained himself to degrade women before he leaves my home.

"As a radical feminist who puts women first I cannot begin to determine what I should do with regards to this issue. My heart breaks because there is nothing I can do to protect the womyn he will come into contact with.

"I have three boys. One of them is lost to me and as a mother and a radical womyn this breaks my heart in a way I can scarcely express. I don't know if it says something terrible about me, but you know what haunts me late at night? More than anything else? I know, in my heart of hearts that, knowing what I know now, if I had it to do over again I would have had that abortion.

"I also find myself blaming myself over and over again, even though that radical womyn inside of me stands up and yells that I'm placing blame in the wrong place. I'm not sure what I intended to say with this message. I began writing it this morning and put it away again and finally decided to finish it this evening. I think that maybe I just wanted to share, I keep trying with Brandon and I keep failing. He simply doesn't care. When he wants to jerk off, everything goes right out the window."

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liberated women
Posted by: tedtun on Apr 12, 2008 8:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Has anyone ever noticed that the countries that are most tolerant of porn have the most liberated women Ie. Sweden and Holland. And the places where porn is strictly prohibited women are second class citizens?

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hackbut
Posted by: hackbut on Apr 12, 2008 11:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it hard to understand why anyone, male or female, wants to have sex in front of a camera, but then physically I'm not porn star material, so maybe for those who are there's a bit of exhibitionism involved on a physical level, not unlike and perhaps no more worthy of condemnation than the mental exhibitionism of some professors.

I have seen porn and what I think is non-feminist about it is that is is very largely gynecological without much romance. More romance and less gynecology would make it more feminist because then there would be more focus on the emotions of the psrties, which means more of a romantic feeling. This would also make it much more interesting and sexy.

Also not very feminine and very off-putting to me is the unnatural look of so many porn actors, with the surgical breasts which look like half-canteloupes glued on their chests - does that not denigrate the beauty of many if not most women, whose beauty is only party physical?

Speaking of sex, women are much more powerful than men for the simple reason that as a very general statement men are much more interested in getting next to women than vice versa - this urge is really built in and I've often wondered why?

No real answer but one thought is the combination of the memory or failure to have the mother's breast combined with an urge to go back to the only place where a man, with his excessive testosterone, was ever really safe, comfortable and peaceful, the womb.

All in all, women have the power in sex for many more reasons than I've been able to set out briefly above. So then isn't it axiomatic that women should also have the power in portraying sex should they choose to do so.

The only reason they don't is a continuation of what's been happening to women since humankind has been around for the last million years or so - the latest time guess - exploitation through some kind of force.

BTW I'm an old guy who has always loved the company of women, not as reciprocated as much as I would have liked. I like them for the right reasons and I like them for the "wrong" reasons. Bless them all, straight, gay and in-between.

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rn
Posted by: mnatra on Apr 13, 2008 11:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You have got to be kidding What bull shit If you were talking about the degradation of blacks as you do about women their would be an uproar beyond belief!How could even talk about porn on this great
website/?
You dilute what you are all about.

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