COMMENTS: 201
Why Do Doctors Get to Decide When a Woman Is Old Enough to Have Her 'Tubes Tied'?
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"I'm sending you this email as I can't sleep after the non communication we had after dinner ... I respect your decision not to have children but what I do not understand is why you get so defensive, you never give why? What's helped you make this decision? I could tell my friends and family 10 reasons why I didn't want a child or a husband [when I was your age]. You just place a high wall between us and make statements that I don't understand and you don't explain. IE, it will never happen I'm making sure of that??? Are you having surgery? Is your partner? Are you ill? What does this statement mean? I make a statement, "Never say never," again you get upset. Lauren*, no one knows what life holds for them... There are some decisions you'll make in life that will live with you forever and I want you to realize this. I do understand this will come with time and maturity. I guess we'll always have a wall between us due to our strong wills and selfishness."
-- love mom (Mrs. Green*)
Ever since Lauren Green was a little girl, she knew she wasn't interested in motherhood. While other girls dreamt of dolls that peed, Green fixated on everything but: "I was going to get married as soon as I graduated college, and I would design my houses and I would design my wedding, but there were never any babies involved."
She's been dealing with the ardent disapproval of friends and family ever since. Especially from mom.
According to Green, now a twenty-five year old graduate student, not so cryptic emails like the above are standard between her and her mother, whose dreams of one day being called "nana" are radically out of sync with her daughter's choice to remain child-free.
"My mother just thinks I'll change my mind. I think a lot of people think I'll change my mind," admits Green, by now all too familiar with the weary, knowing smiles of those who think they know her better than she knows herself. People, so it seems, are somewhat inept when it comes to distinguishing womanhood from motherhood.
For now (at least) mama Green needn't worry; though she's tried, and will try again, Green has thus far been denied any permanent form of birth control, specifically tubal ligation.
Tubal ligation -- known more commonly as "getting your tubes tied," -- involves closing the fallopian tubes so that the egg cannot travel from the ovary to the uterus, where, normally, a fertilized egg would develop into a fetus.
"[Planned Parenthood of Boston**] said it was much too permanent and weren't going to give it to me, plus my insurance wasn't going to cover it," recalls Green. What's more, according to Green, "It was all and only about my age." She was twenty-two at the time.
Green's experience is not that unusual. Though no actual laws have ever been put into place, most OBGYNs refuse to provide women under thirty with permanent forms of contraception. Dr. Daniel Wiener, assistant professor of obstetrics and gynecology at McGill University in Montreal, is one such doctor.
With thirty plus years of medical practice, Dr. Wiener finds no good reason for putting otherwise healthy patients in surgery: for one, there are anesthetic risks involved. Plus, tubal ligations are considered elective surgeries (assuming the patient can use other, less invasive forms of birth control). More pressing, still, is the fear that a patient may one day change her mind. Sound familiar?
"Twenty-one to thirty, that's a big decade. A huge decade," says Dr. Wiener. "A woman who is twenty-five and says, 'That's it, I've made my choice,' I would probably just have to say, 'You're making a twenty-five year old choice. You sure that's going to be a thirty-eight or thirty-nine year old choice?'"
In other words, come back when you're older.
For Green and the growing number of women forgoing motherhood, waiting till they're thirty just isn't good enough. "It's a vast limitation of my reproductive rights," opines Green, thoroughly unimpressed with Dr. Wiener's approach. "Doctors will say, 'I don't like to prescribe elective surgeries for people who don't need them.' Whereas if you don't want to have a baby, you don't want to have a baby and it feels fairly necessary to me."
"It's an issue of agency, and who gets to make that choice," adds Christine Brooks, a post doctoral fellow studying the purposefully barren at the Institute of Trans Personal Psychology in the Bay Area.
According to Brooks, "The argument that these women might change their minds is a paternalistic argument. It questions a woman's inner knowing, her own path in life. It also suggests that women don't know what's best for them and that they have to defer to a medical authority to make life decisions."
Yet doctors routinely make life decisions for other people. And with more than three decades of practice, Dr. Wiener isn't about to question his proficiency on the subject:
"Why do we arbitrarily choose thirty? Because of the thirty years of practice in my life. Because of the number of years of experience that we, as physicians, have come to see that twenty-five, twenty-six, twenty-seven year old women have, historically, more often than not, told you they regretted their decision to get their tubes tied."
Brooks suggests otherwise. Drawing on her research examining "grounded theory exploration of the early articulation of intentional childlessness," for which she interviewed thirty women, she concludes that the consistency of women maintaining their original choice not to have children is extremely high. The real problem, according to Brooks, "is the dearth of choices given to them in terms of their reproductive freedoms. "For instance, they themselves had very positive self-regard, but had to deal with 'the denial of validity' from others." (Or Mrs. Green, if you so happen to be her daughter.) Not surprisingly, many are turning to the Internet for support.
A number of groups, such as childfree.net and Childfree by Choice, have made their views known in cyberspace. It only takes a few clicks to realize that Green is far from alone:
"I am almost 22 and do not want to have sex until I get my tubes tied. The risk of pregnancy is just too horrifying to me. In fact, it is my greatest fear. How do I find a doctor who will perform this procedure on someone my age? Do you have to be 30 in all states? Could enough money get me a ligation? Or could I make some kind of appeal with a convincing argument?"
"I don't think there are laws. Most doctors have a general criteria they'd like you to meet (26 w/2 kids, for example,) but some will do it if you want. My own OB said he'll do that on anyone who wants it -- if you know -- than you know! Just keep calling around to different OB/GYNs and ask what their beliefs are on someone with your age & situation. Keep calling until you find someone. Good luck!"
The frustration is palpable. And it doesn't look like things are going to simmer down anytime soon. The National Center of Health Statistics reports that the percentage of women of childbearing age who define themselves as voluntarily childless is growing, from 2.4 percent in 1982, to 4.3 percent in 1990, to 6.6 percent in 1995, in other words 4.1 million women (the most recent statistic available).
With their numbers increasing, the "childless by choice" have already inspired their own five letter acronym: "DINKS," originally referring to any committed couple without children, stands for Double Income No Kids. The word was created in the 1990s, when demographic studies uncovered the self-obvious fact that couples without children have a higher level of disposable income on average. But apart from its ostensibly light hearted tone, the term does little for those assuming its moniker; DINKS are frequently dubbed egotistical, cold, and money hungry. Unnatural even.
"It's still kind of a cultural norm that you will have and want children," Green says. "I think people are very wary of people who don't want kids."
Some, like Suzan Douglas and Meredith Michaels, authors of The Mommy Myth, have gone as far as to tag the backlash the "new momism."
Douglas and Michaels explain that the new momism oppresses all women by reducing their worth to childbearing and rearing; that in an overwhelmingly child oriented society, a woman is not complete without a child; she must be the primary caregiver of that child, and she must devote herself utterly to her children. Lest she be called "selfish" or "immature."
Whatever one's reasons for declining parenthood (some cite financial motives, others, careers -- there's even an entire group citing environmental reasons and overpopulation) most people simply don't take kindly to those who can, but don't, have kids. Particularly in a time where infertility rates are on the rise.
While Green has no way of knowing for certain whether or not she's fertile, she remains undaunted by her "waste of womb."
"I think there's definitely this idea where a woman's function is to have babies cause your body is made to do it," she says. "My body is made to do a lot of things. It's made to run. That doesn't mean I go running every day. Nor should I have to."
As for Mrs. Green, she's got a long trek in front of her. By her only daughter's estimate, "She should be crying a lot over the next, I don't know, how many years before I'm past my prime childbearing years? I'm guessing twenty years."
At least it's not thirty.
* Names have been changed for this article.
** Planned Parenthood of Boston no longer offers tubal ligations and could not be reached for comment.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: jaby on Jul 27, 2007 12:52 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does it suck, sure it does. Elective surgery is elective surgery. If we allow 18 year olds to get ass/boob/pec/calf implants, then we should let them tie themselves off. But, IMHO, that is a problem unto itself too. Surgery isn't some game, not some commodity; it is serious, sometimes deadly, often irreversible. It is the permanent maiming of your body, not to be entered into lightly. Not to suggest that these women aren't serious about their choice with regards to not having kids, but the attitude towards surgery is just so cavalier, like surgery never poses problems of its own.
To cut to the chase... I think where Alternet sees heavy-handed paternalism, the doctors only see the money, the possible lawsuits, whether or not insurance will cover it, etc, etc. Come on now, we all know, it is all about the money, honey. All the time. Always. Repeat after me everyone, "It is always about the money! It is always about the money!" Always, and we know this, this shouldn't come as a shock to anyone. If a doctor thinks there is a chance that he/she might get sued on down the road, he/she is going to run screaming from the situation, leaving a trail of IUD's, condoms and cervical caps behind them.
Also, Alternet, in the interest of fairness, I would like to know whether or not young men are having troubles getting doctors to perform vasectomies on them or if, as I suspect, young men aren't really that interested in having vasectomies.
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» RE: It's about control
Posted by: Sushi
» I don't think it's about control...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: I don't think it's about control...
Posted by: Leman
» I think its about control as well..... population control of certain genotypes.
Posted by: Prophit0
» RE: I think its about control as well..... population control of certain genotypes.
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: I think its about control as well..... population control of certain genotypes.
Posted by: skybluesky
» RE: Red-herring turbo engine analogies aside..
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: ed-herring turbo engine analogies aside..
Posted by: Leman
» A couple of things...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: It's about control
Posted by: drband36
» RE: It's about control
Posted by: jaby
» RE: It's about control
Posted by: EJ
» RE: It's about control
Posted by: jaby
» It isn't "all about the money"...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: It isn't "all about the money"...Of course it is!
Posted by: jaby
» RE: It's about control
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Because....
Posted by: Leman
» RE: Because....
Posted by: jaby
» RE: Because....
Posted by: Leman
» RE: Because....
Posted by: jaby
» RE: Because....
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Because....ANSWERS FOR BORNXEYED
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: Because....
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: Because....
Posted by: Leman
» RE: Because....
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: Because....
Posted by: Leman
» RE: Because....
Posted by: Timba
» RE: Because....
Posted by: jaby
» RE: Because....
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Because....
Posted by: jaby
» RE: Because....
Posted by: mjabele
» I can't help but add...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Because....TO MJABELE: CHOICES CARRY REGRETS AND ADULTS LIVE WITH THEM
Posted by: maribelle
» Vasectomies
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Vasectomies
Posted by: jaby
» RE: Vasectomies
Posted by: drband36
» RE: Vasectomies
Posted by: jaby
» RE: Vasectomies
Posted by: gnocchi
» RE: Vasectomies
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Vasectomies
Posted by: Sushi
» Men and vasectomies
Posted by: mhoffman81
» RE: Men and vasectomies
Posted by: steelwinged
Comments are closed-
Posted by: browsercat on Jul 27, 2007 1:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think that for the majority of women [and men - they can get vasectomies, too], 18 is too young to make a decision of such consequence, but the only other option is birth control that can and does fail. When they spend as much money on making contraceptives reliable as they do on drugs to keep mens' dicks hard, maybe women who don't want kids won't feel that they have no other choice than to resort to tubal ligations, and will be able, if they wish, to delay the procedure until later. Until then, doctors need to work with their patients to make sure that every possible option is on the table for discussion; anyone who demonstrates the maturity and self-knowledge to make the decision should be able to chose what is best for without interference, including a tubal ligation.
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Posted by: heid on Jul 27, 2007 3:34 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How many people undergo epidural steroid injections without being told that it can never heal back pain (though it can hide it temporarily), but can cause horrific and unending damage and pain? How many undergo spine surgeries without ever being told of the enormous risks they're facing? How many are given drugs for so-called prevention of osteoporosis, but never informed that they actually cause it? How many are given drugs without being told of all the potential dangers associated?
How many are pressed into giving their children vaccinations for relatively minor childhood diseases without first being told of the risks of death from the vaccinations themselves or the long term risks of degenerative diseases?
Chest, produced by the American College of Chest Physicians, has recently published that up to double the number of children have developed asthma as a direct result of antibiotic, but how many doctors will inform parents of this?
The AMA has recently published information indicating that up to 30,000 extra cases of cancer are developed each year because of CT scans. But how many people are pressed into this procedure as being without risk?
These procedures and drugs that the medical system presses on people without even giving halfway decent explanations of the risks - or even how likely or unlikely the hoped-for benefit will be achieved - are the real issue in medicine today. Doctors presume far too much. They press treatments on us without telling us of the risks, often without even bothering to check themselves.
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» Not me
Posted by: phaedrus
» RE: What other decisions docs make for us?... silly human...
Posted by: Bearzerker
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BJT on Jul 27, 2007 3:59 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wouldn't you then complain about the poor job he does and insist on some kind of law against bad surgeries? When does your quest for government fulfillment of all your wishes come to a stop? When is there going to be enough force and control over people to make you happy?
This has got to be the weirdest political opinion site on the Internet.
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» RE: You lefties and force...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» As long as the right of the physician to decline to perform the procedure is guaranteed...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: You lefties and force...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» And yet here you are, probably because alternet was alphabetically at the top of some list
Posted by: Beck
» RE: You lefties and force...
Posted by: Curio
» Just from these responses, i begin to wonder "why don't any of you want children"? Just curious!
Posted by: Prophit0
» If everyone decided not to carry on the species?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Just from these responses, i begin to wonder "why don't any of you want children"? Just curious!
Posted by: drband36
» RE: Just from these responses, i begin to wonder "why don't any of you want children"? Just curious!
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: Just from these responses, i begin to wonder "why don't any of you want children"? Just curious!
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Here's why
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Here's why
Posted by: karyse
» RE: Just from these responses, i begin to wonder "why don't any of you want children"? Just curious
Posted by: AMerrickanGirl
» RE: Just from these responses, i begin to wonder "why don't any of you want children"? Just curious
Posted by: jmoore
» RE: You lefties and force...
Posted by: Ms. DuFontagne
» you poor mental midget... hangover this morning?
Posted by: Bearzerker
» RE: You lefties and force...
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: Naoma on Jul 27, 2007 4:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: naoma
Posted by: NaomiC
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Posted by: Cruella on Jul 27, 2007 5:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: terradea on Jul 27, 2007 5:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I had the procedure done under a local anesthetic (little risk) and was able to watch what was being done inside my own body via a telescope-like device. I have not regretted my decision; in fact, I highly recommend it to every woman who does not want children. Women know what they want, yet they are treated like children or second-class citizens. It's worse (in some ways) today than it was in 1983.
Young women have become lazy, in that they have refused to fight for rights they believe they already have. Attention young women: there is no "Equal Rights Amendment (ERA)." That means you do not have equal rights with men according to our Constitution. If you do not fight for equal pay, reproductive rights, contraception, health care, etc., you will not get them. Stop being lazy. You need to march in the streets, just like those brave feminists before us did.
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» RE: We've gone backwards ... sort of
Posted by: H_H
» RE: We've gone backwards ... sort of
Posted by: Timba
» Check your facts, Timba
Posted by: H_H
» RE: We've gone backwards ... sort of
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» There seem to be plenty of examples here of young men...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: We've gone backwards ... sort of
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: We've gone backwards ... sort of **EXHIBIT A--WHAT FOOLS WOMEN SUFFER**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: We've gone backwards ... sort of
Posted by: Pockysmama
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Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming on Jul 27, 2007 5:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also had serious, menstrual problems that limited and practically consumed my life. I was lucky to get two and a half to three weeks of normal life in a month; the rest of the time was spent in agony and a pool of vomit.
I was in my early twenties (this was the 60s) when I started trying to have a hysterectomy. I'm surprised I didn't go bald from the male doctors patting me on the head and telling me I'd change my mind "when I grew up", as though all I could possibly want was babies and was too young to know myself. They also told me that the dysmenorrhea would go away when I had a baby. Not even the prospect of ending the pain could convince me that was a good idea.
My husband didn't want children, though my mother-in-law badgered us mercilessly about starting a family. (We had started a family--we got married.)
By my thirties, when I had developed a good career and gotten divorced, I *still* didn't want children; I *still* had disabling menstrual problems around which I had to live my life, and I *still* couldn't find a doctor who would agree to a medical procedure to cure a serious medical problem on the off chance I'd later develop a late-life whim to become a mother.
It took early-stage cervical cancer (which I wouldn't had gotten if I'd been able to jettison my cervix as I wanted) and other nasty conditions before I could find a doctor who agreed that my vestigal womb probably was more trouble than it as worth. I was 42 years old, single, celibate--and even *then* I had to go through counseling to convince them that I wouldn't regret not longer being "a whole woman"--and I wasn't willing to suffer through until menopause fixed everything.
Nine days after a total hysterectomy, I was back to work and could plan things all month long, *finally* free of a condition that had nearly ruined my life--needlessly. In my next life, I'm going to have a hysterectomy when I'm 12 years old, even if I have to do it myself with an x-acto knife.
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» GRAPHIC- BEWARE: I also had 10 day periods that gushed like Niagara Falls
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: my body, myself
Posted by: maribelle
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mjabele on Jul 27, 2007 6:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Frankly, were I a surgeon, I wouldn't necessarily dismiss a request from a sincere and thoughtful young woman to have her tubes tied at age 20 or 25, whether or not she'd had kids. On the other hand, given that women (and men) DO change their minds - I have an HIV-positive woman in my practice right now who's trying to get her tubal reversed - I wouldn't necessarily perform surgery on all comers, either.
The fact is that patients do change their minds, and OB/GYN surgeons undoubtedly see a large number of such cases during their practice careers - something not really brought out in this article. Moreover, they've also undoubtedly dealt with the occasional complications of such surgery, and therefore realize more acutely that there is an actual small, but real, component of risk. Beyond the simple issues of liability, most physicians don't like the idea of doing something electively to a patient that might potentially be harmful, or simply a potential cause of regret (and a repeat surgery) later on.
Bottom line is that every encounter between a patient and her physician is an individual one, and that the patient needs to respect the physician's perspective just as the physician should respect hers. In the final analysis, there's no "requirement" that a physician provide a service to a patient that he or she feels may be inappropriate or dangerous, based on current medical knowledge or practice guidelines, or even simply on his or her own previous personal experience or ethical perspective. However, if an agreement as to what should be done can't be reached, it IS the physician's ethical responsibility to provide the patient with access to a second opinion, as well as routine medical care until a new provider can be found.
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» RE: The physician-patient relationship...
Posted by: wagadog
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Posted by: gistre on Jul 27, 2007 7:00 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Exactly!
Posted by: Curio
» RE: Women like Lauren Green
Posted by: drband36
» Thank you for your rebuttal
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» THANK YOU DRBAND36
Posted by: flakkerzmom
» SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR IS NOT SELF-ABSORBED!
Posted by: flakkerzmom
» for flakkerzmom
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: for flakkerzmom
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR IS NOT SELF-ABSORBED!
Posted by: AMerrickanGirl
» RE: gistre, sweetie...lighten up.
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: gistre, sweetie...lighten up.
Posted by: drband36
» RE: gistre, sweetie...lighten up.
Posted by: meli-mello
» It's so selfish not to want to share with the nonexistent
Posted by: Arcane Rose
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 27, 2007 7:13 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» The patient has as much of a duty to respect the physician's decision...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: MORE DRAMA AND GROSS EXAGERATION
Posted by: talkville
» RE: MORE DRAMA AND GROSS EXAGERATION
Posted by: drband36
» RE: MORE DRAMA AND GROSS EXAGERATION
Posted by: talkville
Comments are closed-
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming on Jul 27, 2007 7:44 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With all this concern about the possible side effects (oh, it's dangerous, it's surgery, you might catch cold), has no one considered the side effects of unwanted pregnancies? Abortion, child abuse, miserable families?
There probably are more people who had children and regretted it than those who decide later permanent contraception wasn't the best for them.
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» RE: my body, my mind, my decision
Posted by: drband36
» Double damned, I guess.
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: Double damned, I guess.
Posted by: mobile68
» RE: Double damned, I guess.
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: my body, my mind, my decision
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bab5nutz on Jul 27, 2007 8:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
would the doctor try to talk him out of it? Would there be an insistance on counselling, and waiting until later?
I am curious to know the answer to this.
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» RE: What About Men?
Posted by: drband36
» RE: What About Men?
Posted by: porpentine
» RE: What About Men? Newsflash: Vasectomies are 80+% reversible.
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
Comments are closed-
Posted by: g on Jul 27, 2007 8:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By the way: in a world that is overpopulated, in a country living an unsustainable lifestyle, I get really pissed when I hear that child-free people are the selfish ones. Yeah, giving in to the urge to spread your worthy genes around is really altruistic. You are such great people that we need more of you in the next generation. Get a grip.
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» RE: This article would sound like an exaggeration...
Posted by: bajeckabean
» My bad
Posted by: g
» RE: This article would sound like an exaggeration...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: This article would sound like an exaggeration...
Posted by: MartianBachelor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: alphakat on Jul 27, 2007 8:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just found it incredibly weird that the surgeon was so nonchalant about it. I'm sure if a man required the removal of one of his testicles, they wouldn't offer to lop off his penis and give him a tube so he could pee directly into a bag rather than have the inconvenience of going to the bathroom???
It seems my experience was very different from the women in this article. Granted, I am older, but there was a completely different attitude at my clinic. They were more than willing to offer permanent 'solutions' that I didn't need or ask for.
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» RE: A different but related experience
Posted by: Ms. DuFontagne
» prophylaxis
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» but they are used daily
Posted by: alphakat
» as a matter of fact
Posted by: wildgeese
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Posted by: Veronique on Jul 27, 2007 9:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I aborted, with the help of two psychiatrists who reported that it would be socially disadvantageous for me to have that second child. The abortion was clinical and no one took into account my feelings. It was a clinical affair. I don't have a ptroblem with that.
I had another son some 7 years later. Both boys are utterly committed to each other. I consider that a good outcome.
After the birth of my second child, I decided that I had reached my limit. I applied to my docotor for a referral to a hospital for sterilisation. I was 29. I ended up visiting 6 doctors before I got my spiel together, enough to convince the 6th one to refer me to a gynecologist.
This took place in 1972. What amazed me was that these doctors (all men, BTW) tried to tell me that I would marry again and want more children. I tried to explain that our planet was already over crowded by humans and that I didn't want to fall prey to the emotional (and genetic) push to reproduce yet again. I was trying to nip this feeling in the bud!!
I got my tubal ligation thanks to the 6th doctor (I had my spiel pretty well perfect by the time I saw him and I was adamant anyway and he was either swayed by my arguments or just wanted me out of his office rooms - I would't have been a publicist's shoe strap).
I have never regretted that decision - I do not waste tears of self-recrimmination over my choice. I do not have childen who are unable to live in the world in which they find themselves. However, I feel for my grandchidlren. They will not have the privileged life that my generation has had. I find this sad.
I now look in horror at our global population figures. Our wishes and desires to have the best that we can see, regardless of the impact we have on the physical world in which we live and understand that we still haven't the slightest clue of the damage we are doing to our habitat.
We appear to be programmed to pass our genes onto the next generarion. I contend that this has more to do with our unbridled and mis-understood desire to increase our numbers when it is clearly not thought out in any rational way and is certainly not in the interests of our species or those other species that we can call cousins.
My despair has to do with our inability to allow other speices to enjoy life as we know it. How many thousands of our current co-existent species have to die before we wake up to the destruction we are imposing on this pale blue dot (as seen by the Voyager on its trip though the universe. The planet that we call home.
a bit of a ramble - who cares - not I
I, maybe, have 30 years to go before I kark it. That's my grandchildren's generation, trying to curry monetary favour with other nations in order to secure Australia's so-called freedom. LOL.
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» RE: Knowing the limits
Posted by: drband36
» Global Overpopulation. No way out of it.
Posted by: Veronique
» Why do you assume I'm so attached to my "precious DNA"?
Posted by: mjabele
» Suicide...sorry
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» Suicide...sorry
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pdxstudent on Jul 27, 2007 9:11 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If doctors are bound by their Hippocratic oath to do no harm, does this not also mean in the diffuse situation of giving a patient permanant contraceptive surgery? The obvious response is that denying this surgery is in the best care of the patient as they might "change their mind." This is not satisfying. What this kind of response implies is that the normative rules of female-existence should be given a fair chance at conscripting another young body. Anyone who we deem to be an adult, which itself is a frothy debate, and is willing to transgress such a strongly pushed norm by requesting the surgery, is already in a childless mindset that is unlikely to change
What's more is so what if they change their minds.? It is ludicrious to suggest that doctors are in financial danger, as a contract easily lifts any long-term responsibility on the doctor, lest he simply botchs the job. Anyone electing for that kind of surgery is implicitly making that pact with the doctor, that they aren't going to want children, so why not explicitly, as it is obviously unreasonably unfair to ask the doctor to remain liable for a lifetime of what should be a ONE TIME DECISION - to not or to maybe have children.
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» RE: A Bigger Question THE DOCTOR IS COVERED
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Competence in decision making is what your advocating?
Posted by: Bearzerker
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Posted by: Gravitas on Jul 27, 2007 9:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» tired of doctors overstepping their moral boundaries... I've never seen or heard of this...
Posted by: Bearzerker
» RE: tired of doctors overstepping their moral boundaries... I've never seen or heard of this...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» You're being "paternalistic" yourself, it seems to me...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: You're being "paternalistic" yourself, it seems to me...
Posted by: wildgeese
» I disagree - "technicians" don't generally have the right to refuse to do a procedure...
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: porpentine on Jul 27, 2007 9:48 AM
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» why does the SCOTUS
Posted by: goatini
» RE: why does the SCOTUS
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: No age limit on vasectomies
Posted by: Sushi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jul 27, 2007 10:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: razzmichi on Jul 27, 2007 11:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But I agree. I knew it when I was young and never changed my mind.
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Posted by: NaomiC on Jul 27, 2007 1:01 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But back then, there were still "sterilization boards" at hospitals. Essentially, they passed judgement on whether sterilization (even if medically necessary for cancer-related reasons) was "appropriate". So, even if a woman had cervical or uterine cancer, it was presented (pre-surgery) to the board for a pro-forma approval.
But my first (and second) request for tubal ligation was denied. Why? For three reasons: because I was too young (25); had too few children (I wasn't desperate enough??? See: Andrea Yates); and my husband made too much money (WTF? His salary was $11,000/year!).
Like Lauren, I wasn't good mother material. And like Lauren, my mother wanted grandchildren. So I had my daughter, and 20 months later, I had my son. Both pregnancies were difficult (or maybe my inner reluctance was making them difficult). I was totally sure that I wasn't cut out for the big family (six children; I was oldest) I grew up in. Totally, absolutely positively certain sure! And I had convinced my doctor of this - hence the two presentations to the board.
After the second denial, he found that there was one hospital in our area that didn't have a sterilization board; he made arrangements for me to get a "second opinion". Doctor #2 agreed to do the surgery (and by removing my appendix, the insurance company paid for it!). Fait accompli!
I'm 61 now. And I repeat: I have never regretted that decision - not even once! My husband and I divorced 15 years later, and I remarried some years after that. When my new husband tentatively approached the subject of "another baby", I nicely made clear my position, "Nope, ain't no way, fuggetaboutit!"
My body is my own. I make the decisions about what goes into it and what comes out. In the late 60s-early 70s, we were in the days of Zero Population Growth, early legal abortion and well-established birth-control programs. HOW WE GREW AWAY FROM ALL THAT IS A DAMNED CRYING SHAME!
I Blame the Patriarchy and, especially, RELIGION for 95% of today's problems. Bite me, xianists!
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» RE: Best decision I ever made before I was 30!
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: Bearzerker on Jul 27, 2007 2:14 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
even if some think its a bad choice!
Everybody has the right to decide what they can do to there own body, as long as competent authorities agree... [yes, family is a competent authority... politicians it seems these days are not]
this includes;
end of life decisions,
drug ingestion [medical and recreational]
reproductive health
Religious rites [Flagellation and Christ emulating Crucifixions come to mind]
plus numerous other reasons...
Just think about the hypocrisy of the so called "war on drugs"... and then imagine the savings to mind, body and spirit, and the overall lessoning of crime if people just accepted the inalienable right of the person to do do to their body what "they" decided.
Desperate people will do desperate things... to themselves and to others if they see no other way, and people "will" do to themselves whatever, regardless...
...plus theres the old supply and demand argument... where theres a demand theres a supply and vice a versa!
Just stop ...and think for a minute... and you will realize that this is all just a futile argument over social semantics!
My question to all who read this is,
what right does a "society" have over what a person can do to there own body? and
isn't there a guarantee under the constitution preventing other peoples from interfering in another persons inalienable rights? rights which include the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.
just a thought for your day
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» RE: This is just a logical conclusion....
Posted by: talkville
» Bravo... well said...
Posted by: Bearzerker
» RE: Bravo... well said...
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 27, 2007 2:33 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» No one said you have to grovel...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: No one said you have to grovel...
Posted by: wildgeese
» Of course doctors and nurses should treat patients as individuals.
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Of course doctors and nurses should treat patients as individuals.CARING, YES
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jul 27, 2007 10:21 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can you elaborate?
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» RE: for Gistre...
Posted by: grumble-bum
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Posted by: drband36 on Jul 28, 2007 12:03 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Have you read "The Death of the West" by Pat Buchanan? You seem to fear a brown planet almost as much as he does.
Having children is not an arms race. It's not the cold war. We shouldn't be trying to out-breed anybody. We should instead try to actually educate young Americans so that the are capable of excelling in the 21st century, rather than teaching to the test and running them through mazes of multiple choice questions that assess rote learning, but never teach them how to *think* or *reason*.
The overall color of America doesn't matter. Racist folks said the arrival of the Irish on our shores would be the end of us...and the Italians...and the Poles...etc. Seems we did pretty well after we finally got over that BS mindset (well, most of us got over it, anyway). What *does* matter is that, as we get more crowded, we're eventually going to destroy each other like rats in a cage. Bigotry is going to be a luxury, or a mere memory, when we literally don't have enough clean water to go around or NYC is half underwater.
I have only two bumperstickers on my car:
"Fewer Humans/More Humanity"
and
"Overpopulation: How Dense Can We Get?"
These are on the back of my Honda Insight, which gets 65+ mpg on the highway, and which I can drive because I don't have children (it's a 2-seater. My hubby and I love it). I bring it up because I can tell you that when I bought it (right before 9/11), people were legitimately curious about it and would ask questions about how the hybrid engine worked. Now, they see my car coming and just seem angry...it's as if I'm just reminding them that we're in trouble, and that they're paying $3 for gas, with the profits going largely to countries that hate us. It's as if lots of people have just given up and resigned themselves to the idea that these are the "end times" (aided, of course, by their pastors, who still somehow have no problem with maximum breeding!).
Why is it that I, a childfree woman with no theorhetical stake in the future, seem to care more about that future and our environment than parents do? They're the ones who should be lining up to put solar panels on their houses while they downsize from SUVs to station wagons...but I don't see it happening.
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» Good on ya dr
Posted by: Veronique
» RE: Good on ya dr
Posted by: drband36
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Posted by: talkville on Jul 28, 2007 4:01 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Bearzerker on Jul 28, 2007 3:26 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
you give honest rednecks a bad name!
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Posted by: NWCrow on Jul 30, 2007 2:15 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: lwbaby on Jul 27, 2007 9:26 PM
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That is total bullsh*t.
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» "TOTAL Bullsh*t"? Really?
Posted by: grumble-bum
» If you where my wife...
Posted by: Bearzerker
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Posted by: talkville on Jul 28, 2007 3:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It would be difficult to show that a female with means and influence would be unable to obtain a tubal ligation even below the age of 30. There's morals and conduct for the masses, then there's Morals and Conduct for the few. Here in the USA the transformation is from Patriarchy to Parentarchy -- and from citizenship to children-ship. A gloomy re-institution of the status quo and conformity filled "with sound and fury" and signifying a tread-mill.
We are well on the way to Theocracy. Who will decide for us which God is to rule?
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Posted by: ray burchard on Jul 28, 2007 5:18 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In these cases, maybe "Tubal Ligation should be manditory, does mankinds gene pool continuum really need this, "I'm special"... she has her rights to the exclusion of all, contribution?
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» RE: Tubal Ligation addresses the wrong end of the problem
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Tubal Ligation addresses the wrong end of the problem
Posted by: NWCrow
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Posted by: karyse on Jul 28, 2007 12:03 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's see, someone should have children because,
1) you're supposed to
2) you're SELFISH if you don't have children (upside down reasoning here). "I want MY genes transmitted through the ages." There are many, many children ready to be adopted. No need to add to the population to show how UNSELFISH you are.
3) Though I didn't see anyone say this directly, in some cases it was implied; sex for reasons other than procreation is a sin.
4) Do it because your parents want grandchildren.
5) It just happened by accident but NOW I really love them.
Well I guess I couldn't think of any good reason to have children unless because "I want them" is a good reason. It seems that as with xian rationale, proponents of having children can't see beyond their own whims and perspective. Me, I would take it a step further, anyone who wants children, especially anyone who wants more than two (natural -- as opposed to adopted) children, should be subjected to psychological counseling and testing to make sure they are not insane. AND, rather then getting tax breaks for having children they should pay MORE taxes because the young consume so much and give so little.
Oh, I know I get slammed for this, but so be it.
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» RE: reason
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: reason
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: reason
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: reason
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: reason
Posted by: drband36
» RE: reason
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: reason
Posted by: NWCrow
» RE: reason
Posted by: drband36
» Nice smackdown
Posted by: Curio
» RE: reason
Posted by: drband36
» RE: reason
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: sorry drband...
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: reason
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: reason
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: reason
Posted by: Sushi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sushi on Jul 29, 2007 9:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That alone should be reason enough for those who cherish children.
How ironic that those who are anti-choice are anti-choice pre-pregnancy as well!
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» RE: The MOST important reason
Posted by: drband36
» RE: Thank you, drband36!
Posted by: Sushi
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Posted by: ld7440 on Jul 29, 2007 10:55 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» She's an adult WOMAN, not a girl
Posted by: Arcane Rose
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Posted by: dogwhisperer on Jul 29, 2007 7:29 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: wildidaho on Jul 30, 2007 7:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although person after person (almost ALL OF THEM WOMEN) have, over the years, asked me "Don't you feel like something is missing? Are you SURE you don't regret the choice to be childless?" (as if they are trying to convince me), I have yet to "regret my choice".
What is to regret? Some of us know from an early age that having babies is not for us. I, too, disliked dolls, I was all about the stuffed animals and coloring books, never once as a kid did I own a doll that wasn't unilaterally ignored by me.
Some of us have maternal instincts that are best served by "mothering" something other than babies. For me - it's foster dogs. Perhaps for others the mothering instinct is simply not a strong need @ all.
It bothers me that so many women even now are being told "you're too young, you might change your mind" - as if these women have no mind of their own to decide which choise is best for them. I lived in California @ the time my tubal was done, I had to go through a week of pre-surgery counseling, then I was asked to take time after the counseling to make sure the choice was one I really believed in, since it is considered permanent, then I was left to CHOOSE for myself.
I have a question for those who claim "Alas, what if the poor dear changes her mind later?" - what business is it to you if she changes her mind later? Let us say she decides @ age 35 that she wants a baby, but she has made that choice improbable forever for her. That is HER issue - and as an adult SHE gets to deal with it. This is what being an adult is about, living with our choices (good, bad, mixed).
Adult women are not children. We really should be allowed to choose what is right (or for that matter what is WRONG) for us. We need not be treated like creatures who know not our own minds.
To tell an adult woman she is too young to choose is insulting, degrading, belittling and any dr. who would say such a thing to me would get his behind fired on the spot. It's MY choice, not dr. X's.
wild
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Posted by: tltfaas on Jul 30, 2007 2:37 PM
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I initially tried to get my tubes tied when I was 23 or so after two divorces and realizing I was too unstable emotionally to have a child. No doctor would tie my tubes. Despite using two forms of birth control I had a child at 26 with a man who abandoned me when he found out I was pregnant. I had neither the money for an abortion and the father refused to sign the adoption papers. So I ended up raising an unwanted child and twenty years later I wonder what my life would have been like if I had gotten my tubes tied at 23.
My mixed feelings come into play when my son was two. I was pregnant again after being raped and my ob-gyn felt that I was too young to get my tubes tied. I had to threaten to kill myself and my son in order to get him to do the procedure. Fortunately, I had a miscarriage and then the doctor performed the procedure two months later.
Yes, the doctor had the right to refuse to do the surgery but I was a patient who should not have had any children let alone the one I had. If he had refused despite my threats then I would have shopped for a doctor who would help me.
What really confused me and still does is why this doctor, my family and my friends did not intervene when it was clear that I was severely depressed and hated my son. No one would intervene to save my son or I and it is nothing short of a miracle that he survives today.
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Posted by: rustynails on Jul 31, 2007 4:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: duval on Jul 31, 2007 6:47 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: gurly on Jul 31, 2007 9:59 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Ruby on Aug 1, 2007 2:24 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The doctor asked that I wait six months to make sure I really wanted to tie my tubes. [FYI--I do not defer to doctors in any way so am in no way defending any perceived paternalism, although there is plenty of that around. However, I don't agree turning women down for this is about money. Taking advantage of a young mind and performing the surgery without question IS].
I went back. He did it. Yee-ha, I was free.
Fast forward to when I remarried at age 33. Everything changed--my husband, my life circumstances, but most important: my mind.
Thank goodness for reversal surgery (and insurance both times) and my four beautiful sons.
That said, do what you want. But don't think not feeling maternal BEFORE having children is a predictor for actually not being maternal. That feeling can kick in without you planning it, perhaps after you have kids.
You have no idea what it's like to have kids until you have them. Babysitting others, stepchildren--it's not the same. There is a physical pull that you can't know without having them. I am a great mother, not perfect, but passionate about my children. Who knew?
Maybe the doctors...
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» RE: I regret it.
Posted by: lindalee
» RE: I regret it.
Posted by: Ruby
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Posted by: luzmejor on Aug 1, 2007 3:40 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That results in permanent sterilization. I predict that many doctors will begin to use this new technique soon.
Oops, there goes that phony concern over "unneeded and dangerous" surgery!
O.R. nurses know most doctors don't consider surgical pregnancy or gynecological procedures dangerous. You don't find them insisting that women with sextuplets reduce fetus numbers because multiple birth is downright harmful and usually damaging to the mother's health. To the contrary, they always go along with the self-destructive wishes of the family to go ahead and develop however many eggs have hatched.
Why? Because those actually dangerous procedures pay a lot more! That is the same reason that gynecologists like the hefty fees they get for assisting childbirth, as opposed to cheaper and easier sterilizations of people who want no children.
They love Caesarian Sections, though, even doing them on patient request and often only to preserve their own schedules. The money is even better for that kind of surgery!
Fie on patriarchal ideas altogether. They have nothing to do with women's health, safety or freedom. They are promoted
because homebound women are less threatening to religious bigots than women who have independence and adequate resources.
Someone should remind these bozos that "regret" never killed anyone, but major surgery and ordinary childbirth definitely do.
A great many women are having children they "regret" for many years.
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Posted by: taxigirl on Aug 12, 2007 8:39 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was sterilized involuntarily at age 17 in the course of an abortion. The doc said "people like me shouldn't have children." But no later doc would finish the job - meaning that I spent my reproductive years knowing I could conceive but not carry to term. Why? Docs didn't want to be involved in such a messy case.
What was optional for them didn't feel that way for me, and prolonged the trauma by many years. Incidentally, I stand by that abortion -- it was the right decision, regardless of consequences. But choice is never uncomplicated, and we can never consider issues of "reproductive choice" without considering questions of economic freedom: women without familial or infrastructural support to raise a child in sufficiency and health have a very different set of "choices" to make. So what may seem like "optional" surgery to a middle class doc can feel pretty life-determining to an economically vulnerable young woman.
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Posted by: jaby on Jul 27, 2007 12:52 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does it suck, sure it does. Elective surgery is elective surgery. If we allow 18 year olds to get ass/boob/pec/calf implants, then we should let them tie themselves off. But, IMHO, that is a problem unto itself too. Surgery isn't some game, not some commodity; it is serious, sometimes deadly, often irreversible. It is the permanent maiming of your body, not to be entered into lightly. Not to suggest that these women aren't serious about their choice with regards to not having kids, but the attitude towards surgery is just so cavalier, like surgery never poses problems of its own.
To cut to the chase... I think where Alternet sees heavy-handed paternalism, the doctors only see the money, the possible lawsuits, whether or not insurance will cover it, etc, etc. Come on now, we all know, it is all about the money, honey. All the time. Always. Repeat after me everyone, "It is always about the money! It is always about the money!" Always, and we know this, this shouldn't come as a shock to anyone. If a doctor thinks there is a chance that he/she might get sued on down the road, he/she is going to run screaming from the situation, leaving a trail of IUD's, condoms and cervical caps behind them.
Also, Alternet, in the interest of fairness, I would like to know whether or not young men are having troubles getting doctors to perform vasectomies on them or if, as I suspect, young men aren't really that interested in having vasectomies.
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» RE: It's about control
Posted by: Sushi
» I don't think it's about control...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: I don't think it's about control...
Posted by: Leman
» I think its about control as well..... population control of certain genotypes.
Posted by: Prophit0
» RE: I think its about control as well..... population control of certain genotypes.
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: I think its about control as well..... population control of certain genotypes.
Posted by: skybluesky
» RE: Red-herring turbo engine analogies aside..
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: ed-herring turbo engine analogies aside..
Posted by: Leman
» A couple of things...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: It's about control
Posted by: drband36
» RE: It's about control
Posted by: jaby
» RE: It's about control
Posted by: EJ
» RE: It's about control
Posted by: jaby
» It isn't "all about the money"...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: It isn't "all about the money"...Of course it is!
Posted by: jaby
» RE: It's about control
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Because....
Posted by: Leman
» RE: Because....
Posted by: jaby
» RE: Because....
Posted by: Leman
» RE: Because....
Posted by: jaby
» RE: Because....
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Because....ANSWERS FOR BORNXEYED
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: Because....
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: Because....
Posted by: Leman
» RE: Because....
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: Because....
Posted by: Leman
» RE: Because....
Posted by: Timba
» RE: Because....
Posted by: jaby
» RE: Because....
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Because....
Posted by: jaby
» RE: Because....
Posted by: mjabele
» I can't help but add...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Because....TO MJABELE: CHOICES CARRY REGRETS AND ADULTS LIVE WITH THEM
Posted by: maribelle
» Vasectomies
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Vasectomies
Posted by: jaby
» RE: Vasectomies
Posted by: drband36
» RE: Vasectomies
Posted by: jaby
» RE: Vasectomies
Posted by: gnocchi
» RE: Vasectomies
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Vasectomies
Posted by: Sushi
» Men and vasectomies
Posted by: mhoffman81
» RE: Men and vasectomies
Posted by: steelwinged
Comments are closed-
Posted by: browsercat on Jul 27, 2007 1:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think that for the majority of women [and men - they can get vasectomies, too], 18 is too young to make a decision of such consequence, but the only other option is birth control that can and does fail. When they spend as much money on making contraceptives reliable as they do on drugs to keep mens' dicks hard, maybe women who don't want kids won't feel that they have no other choice than to resort to tubal ligations, and will be able, if they wish, to delay the procedure until later. Until then, doctors need to work with their patients to make sure that every possible option is on the table for discussion; anyone who demonstrates the maturity and self-knowledge to make the decision should be able to chose what is best for without interference, including a tubal ligation.
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Posted by: heid on Jul 27, 2007 3:34 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How many people undergo epidural steroid injections without being told that it can never heal back pain (though it can hide it temporarily), but can cause horrific and unending damage and pain? How many undergo spine surgeries without ever being told of the enormous risks they're facing? How many are given drugs for so-called prevention of osteoporosis, but never informed that they actually cause it? How many are given drugs without being told of all the potential dangers associated?
How many are pressed into giving their children vaccinations for relatively minor childhood diseases without first being told of the risks of death from the vaccinations themselves or the long term risks of degenerative diseases?
Chest, produced by the American College of Chest Physicians, has recently published that up to double the number of children have developed asthma as a direct result of antibiotic, but how many doctors will inform parents of this?
The AMA has recently published information indicating that up to 30,000 extra cases of cancer are developed each year because of CT scans. But how many people are pressed into this procedure as being without risk?
These procedures and drugs that the medical system presses on people without even giving halfway decent explanations of the risks - or even how likely or unlikely the hoped-for benefit will be achieved - are the real issue in medicine today. Doctors presume far too much. They press treatments on us without telling us of the risks, often without even bothering to check themselves.
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» Not me
Posted by: phaedrus
» RE: What other decisions docs make for us?... silly human...
Posted by: Bearzerker
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BJT on Jul 27, 2007 3:59 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wouldn't you then complain about the poor job he does and insist on some kind of law against bad surgeries? When does your quest for government fulfillment of all your wishes come to a stop? When is there going to be enough force and control over people to make you happy?
This has got to be the weirdest political opinion site on the Internet.
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» RE: You lefties and force...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» As long as the right of the physician to decline to perform the procedure is guaranteed...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: You lefties and force...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» And yet here you are, probably because alternet was alphabetically at the top of some list
Posted by: Beck
» RE: You lefties and force...
Posted by: Curio
» Just from these responses, i begin to wonder "why don't any of you want children"? Just curious!
Posted by: Prophit0
» If everyone decided not to carry on the species?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Just from these responses, i begin to wonder "why don't any of you want children"? Just curious!
Posted by: drband36
» RE: Just from these responses, i begin to wonder "why don't any of you want children"? Just curious!
Posted by: dudelette
» RE: Just from these responses, i begin to wonder "why don't any of you want children"? Just curious!
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Here's why
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Here's why
Posted by: karyse
» RE: Just from these responses, i begin to wonder "why don't any of you want children"? Just curious
Posted by: AMerrickanGirl
» RE: Just from these responses, i begin to wonder "why don't any of you want children"? Just curious
Posted by: jmoore
» RE: You lefties and force...
Posted by: Ms. DuFontagne
» you poor mental midget... hangover this morning?
Posted by: Bearzerker
» RE: You lefties and force...
Posted by: talkville
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Naoma on Jul 27, 2007 4:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: naoma
Posted by: NaomiC
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Posted by: Cruella on Jul 27, 2007 5:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: terradea on Jul 27, 2007 5:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I had the procedure done under a local anesthetic (little risk) and was able to watch what was being done inside my own body via a telescope-like device. I have not regretted my decision; in fact, I highly recommend it to every woman who does not want children. Women know what they want, yet they are treated like children or second-class citizens. It's worse (in some ways) today than it was in 1983.
Young women have become lazy, in that they have refused to fight for rights they believe they already have. Attention young women: there is no "Equal Rights Amendment (ERA)." That means you do not have equal rights with men according to our Constitution. If you do not fight for equal pay, reproductive rights, contraception, health care, etc., you will not get them. Stop being lazy. You need to march in the streets, just like those brave feminists before us did.
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» RE: We've gone backwards ... sort of
Posted by: H_H
» RE: We've gone backwards ... sort of
Posted by: Timba
» Check your facts, Timba
Posted by: H_H
» RE: We've gone backwards ... sort of
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» There seem to be plenty of examples here of young men...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: We've gone backwards ... sort of
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: We've gone backwards ... sort of **EXHIBIT A--WHAT FOOLS WOMEN SUFFER**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: We've gone backwards ... sort of
Posted by: Pockysmama
Comments are closed-
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming on Jul 27, 2007 5:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also had serious, menstrual problems that limited and practically consumed my life. I was lucky to get two and a half to three weeks of normal life in a month; the rest of the time was spent in agony and a pool of vomit.
I was in my early twenties (this was the 60s) when I started trying to have a hysterectomy. I'm surprised I didn't go bald from the male doctors patting me on the head and telling me I'd change my mind "when I grew up", as though all I could possibly want was babies and was too young to know myself. They also told me that the dysmenorrhea would go away when I had a baby. Not even the prospect of ending the pain could convince me that was a good idea.
My husband didn't want children, though my mother-in-law badgered us mercilessly about starting a family. (We had started a family--we got married.)
By my thirties, when I had developed a good career and gotten divorced, I *still* didn't want children; I *still* had disabling menstrual problems around which I had to live my life, and I *still* couldn't find a doctor who would agree to a medical procedure to cure a serious medical problem on the off chance I'd later develop a late-life whim to become a mother.
It took early-stage cervical cancer (which I wouldn't had gotten if I'd been able to jettison my cervix as I wanted) and other nasty conditions before I could find a doctor who agreed that my vestigal womb probably was more trouble than it as worth. I was 42 years old, single, celibate--and even *then* I had to go through counseling to convince them that I wouldn't regret not longer being "a whole woman"--and I wasn't willing to suffer through until menopause fixed everything.
Nine days after a total hysterectomy, I was back to work and could plan things all month long, *finally* free of a condition that had nearly ruined my life--needlessly. In my next life, I'm going to have a hysterectomy when I'm 12 years old, even if I have to do it myself with an x-acto knife.
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» GRAPHIC- BEWARE: I also had 10 day periods that gushed like Niagara Falls
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: my body, myself
Posted by: maribelle
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mjabele on Jul 27, 2007 6:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Frankly, were I a surgeon, I wouldn't necessarily dismiss a request from a sincere and thoughtful young woman to have her tubes tied at age 20 or 25, whether or not she'd had kids. On the other hand, given that women (and men) DO change their minds - I have an HIV-positive woman in my practice right now who's trying to get her tubal reversed - I wouldn't necessarily perform surgery on all comers, either.
The fact is that patients do change their minds, and OB/GYN surgeons undoubtedly see a large number of such cases during their practice careers - something not really brought out in this article. Moreover, they've also undoubtedly dealt with the occasional complications of such surgery, and therefore realize more acutely that there is an actual small, but real, component of risk. Beyond the simple issues of liability, most physicians don't like the idea of doing something electively to a patient that might potentially be harmful, or simply a potential cause of regret (and a repeat surgery) later on.
Bottom line is that every encounter between a patient and her physician is an individual one, and that the patient needs to respect the physician's perspective just as the physician should respect hers. In the final analysis, there's no "requirement" that a physician provide a service to a patient that he or she feels may be inappropriate or dangerous, based on current medical knowledge or practice guidelines, or even simply on his or her own previous personal experience or ethical perspective. However, if an agreement as to what should be done can't be reached, it IS the physician's ethical responsibility to provide the patient with access to a second opinion, as well as routine medical care until a new provider can be found.
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» RE: The physician-patient relationship...
Posted by: wagadog
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Posted by: gistre on Jul 27, 2007 7:00 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Exactly!
Posted by: Curio
» RE: Women like Lauren Green
Posted by: drband36
» Thank you for your rebuttal
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» THANK YOU DRBAND36
Posted by: flakkerzmom
» SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR IS NOT SELF-ABSORBED!
Posted by: flakkerzmom
» for flakkerzmom
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: for flakkerzmom
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR IS NOT SELF-ABSORBED!
Posted by: AMerrickanGirl
» RE: gistre, sweetie...lighten up.
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: gistre, sweetie...lighten up.
Posted by: drband36
» RE: gistre, sweetie...lighten up.
Posted by: meli-mello
» It's so selfish not to want to share with the nonexistent
Posted by: Arcane Rose
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 27, 2007 7:13 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» The patient has as much of a duty to respect the physician's decision...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: MORE DRAMA AND GROSS EXAGERATION
Posted by: talkville
» RE: MORE DRAMA AND GROSS EXAGERATION
Posted by: drband36
» RE: MORE DRAMA AND GROSS EXAGERATION
Posted by: talkville
Comments are closed-
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming on Jul 27, 2007 7:44 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With all this concern about the possible side effects (oh, it's dangerous, it's surgery, you might catch cold), has no one considered the side effects of unwanted pregnancies? Abortion, child abuse, miserable families?
There probably are more people who had children and regretted it than those who decide later permanent contraception wasn't the best for them.
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» RE: my body, my mind, my decision
Posted by: drband36
» Double damned, I guess.
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: Double damned, I guess.
Posted by: mobile68
» RE: Double damned, I guess.
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: my body, my mind, my decision
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bab5nutz on Jul 27, 2007 8:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
would the doctor try to talk him out of it? Would there be an insistance on counselling, and waiting until later?
I am curious to know the answer to this.
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» RE: What About Men?
Posted by: drband36
» RE: What About Men?
Posted by: porpentine
» RE: What About Men? Newsflash: Vasectomies are 80+% reversible.
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
Comments are closed-
Posted by: g on Jul 27, 2007 8:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By the way: in a world that is overpopulated, in a country living an unsustainable lifestyle, I get really pissed when I hear that child-free people are the selfish ones. Yeah, giving in to the urge to spread your worthy genes around is really altruistic. You are such great people that we need more of you in the next generation. Get a grip.
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» RE: This article would sound like an exaggeration...
Posted by: bajeckabean
» My bad
Posted by: g
» RE: This article would sound like an exaggeration...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: This article would sound like an exaggeration...
Posted by: MartianBachelor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: alphakat on Jul 27, 2007 8:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just found it incredibly weird that the surgeon was so nonchalant about it. I'm sure if a man required the removal of one of his testicles, they wouldn't offer to lop off his penis and give him a tube so he could pee directly into a bag rather than have the inconvenience of going to the bathroom???
It seems my experience was very different from the women in this article. Granted, I am older, but there was a completely different attitude at my clinic. They were more than willing to offer permanent 'solutions' that I didn't need or ask for.
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» RE: A different but related experience
Posted by: Ms. DuFontagne
» prophylaxis
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» but they are used daily
Posted by: alphakat
» as a matter of fact
Posted by: wildgeese
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Posted by: Veronique on Jul 27, 2007 9:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I aborted, with the help of two psychiatrists who reported that it would be socially disadvantageous for me to have that second child. The abortion was clinical and no one took into account my feelings. It was a clinical affair. I don't have a ptroblem with that.
I had another son some 7 years later. Both boys are utterly committed to each other. I consider that a good outcome.
After the birth of my second child, I decided that I had reached my limit. I applied to my docotor for a referral to a hospital for sterilisation. I was 29. I ended up visiting 6 doctors before I got my spiel together, enough to convince the 6th one to refer me to a gynecologist.
This took place in 1972. What amazed me was that these doctors (all men, BTW) tried to tell me that I would marry again and want more children. I tried to explain that our planet was already over crowded by humans and that I didn't want to fall prey to the emotional (and genetic) push to reproduce yet again. I was trying to nip this feeling in the bud!!
I got my tubal ligation thanks to the 6th doctor (I had my spiel pretty well perfect by the time I saw him and I was adamant anyway and he was either swayed by my arguments or just wanted me out of his office rooms - I would't have been a publicist's shoe strap).
I have never regretted that decision - I do not waste tears of self-recrimmination over my choice. I do not have childen who are unable to live in the world in which they find themselves. However, I feel for my grandchidlren. They will not have the privileged life that my generation has had. I find this sad.
I now look in horror at our global population figures. Our wishes and desires to have the best that we can see, regardless of the impact we have on the physical world in which we live and understand that we still haven't the slightest clue of the damage we are doing to our habitat.
We appear to be programmed to pass our genes onto the next generarion. I contend that this has more to do with our unbridled and mis-understood desire to increase our numbers when it is clearly not thought out in any rational way and is certainly not in the interests of our species or those other species that we can call cousins.
My despair has to do with our inability to allow other speices to enjoy life as we know it. How many thousands of our current co-existent species have to die before we wake up to the destruction we are imposing on this pale blue dot (as seen by the Voyager on its trip though the universe. The planet that we call home.
a bit of a ramble - who cares - not I
I, maybe, have 30 years to go before I kark it. That's my grandchildren's generation, trying to curry monetary favour with other nations in order to secure Australia's so-called freedom. LOL.
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» RE: Knowing the limits
Posted by: drband36
» Global Overpopulation. No way out of it.
Posted by: Veronique
» Why do you assume I'm so attached to my "precious DNA"?
Posted by: mjabele
» Suicide...sorry
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» Suicide...sorry
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pdxstudent on Jul 27, 2007 9:11 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If doctors are bound by their Hippocratic oath to do no harm, does this not also mean in the diffuse situation of giving a patient permanant contraceptive surgery? The obvious response is that denying this surgery is in the best care of the patient as they might "change their mind." This is not satisfying. What this kind of response implies is that the normative rules of female-existence should be given a fair chance at conscripting another young body. Anyone who we deem to be an adult, which itself is a frothy debate, and is willing to transgress such a strongly pushed norm by requesting the surgery, is already in a childless mindset that is unlikely to change
What's more is so what if they change their minds.? It is ludicrious to suggest that doctors are in financial danger, as a contract easily lifts any long-term responsibility on the doctor, lest he simply botchs the job. Anyone electing for that kind of surgery is implicitly making that pact with the doctor, that they aren't going to want children, so why not explicitly, as it is obviously unreasonably unfair to ask the doctor to remain liable for a lifetime of what should be a ONE TIME DECISION - to not or to maybe have children.
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» RE: A Bigger Question THE DOCTOR IS COVERED
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Competence in decision making is what your advocating?
Posted by: Bearzerker
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Posted by: Gravitas on Jul 27, 2007 9:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» tired of doctors overstepping their moral boundaries... I've never seen or heard of this...
Posted by: Bearzerker
» RE: tired of doctors overstepping their moral boundaries... I've never seen or heard of this...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» You're being "paternalistic" yourself, it seems to me...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: You're being "paternalistic" yourself, it seems to me...
Posted by: wildgeese
» I disagree - "technicians" don't generally have the right to refuse to do a procedure...
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: porpentine on Jul 27, 2007 9:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» why does the SCOTUS
Posted by: goatini
» RE: why does the SCOTUS
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: No age limit on vasectomies
Posted by: Sushi
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jul 27, 2007 10:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: razzmichi on Jul 27, 2007 11:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But I agree. I knew it when I was young and never changed my mind.
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Posted by: NaomiC on Jul 27, 2007 1:01 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But back then, there were still "sterilization boards" at hospitals. Essentially, they passed judgement on whether sterilization (even if medically necessary for cancer-related reasons) was "appropriate". So, even if a woman had cervical or uterine cancer, it was presented (pre-surgery) to the board for a pro-forma approval.
But my first (and second) request for tubal ligation was denied. Why? For three reasons: because I was too young (25); had too few children (I wasn't desperate enough??? See: Andrea Yates); and my husband made too much money (WTF? His salary was $11,000/year!).
Like Lauren, I wasn't good mother material. And like Lauren, my mother wanted grandchildren. So I had my daughter, and 20 months later, I had my son. Both pregnancies were difficult (or maybe my inner reluctance was making them difficult). I was totally sure that I wasn't cut out for the big family (six children; I was oldest) I grew up in. Totally, absolutely positively certain sure! And I had convinced my doctor of this - hence the two presentations to the board.
After the second denial, he found that there was one hospital in our area that didn't have a sterilization board; he made arrangements for me to get a "second opinion". Doctor #2 agreed to do the surgery (and by removing my appendix, the insurance company paid for it!). Fait accompli!
I'm 61 now. And I repeat: I have never regretted that decision - not even once! My husband and I divorced 15 years later, and I remarried some years after that. When my new husband tentatively approached the subject of "another baby", I nicely made clear my position, "Nope, ain't no way, fuggetaboutit!"
My body is my own. I make the decisions about what goes into it and what comes out. In the late 60s-early 70s, we were in the days of Zero Population Growth, early legal abortion and well-established birth-control programs. HOW WE GREW AWAY FROM ALL THAT IS A DAMNED CRYING SHAME!
I Blame the Patriarchy and, especially, RELIGION for 95% of today's problems. Bite me, xianists!
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» RE: Best decision I ever made before I was 30!
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: Bearzerker on Jul 27, 2007 2:14 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
even if some think its a bad choice!
Everybody has the right to decide what they can do to there own body, as long as competent authorities agree... [yes, family is a competent authority... politicians it seems these days are not]
this includes;
end of life decisions,
drug ingestion [medical and recreational]
reproductive health
Religious rites [Flagellation and Christ emulating Crucifixions come to mind]
plus numerous other reasons...
Just think about the hypocrisy of the so called "war on drugs"... and then imagine the savings to mind, body and spirit, and the overall lessoning of crime if people just accepted the inalienable right of the person to do do to their body what "they" decided.
Desperate people will do desperate things... to themselves and to others if they see no other way, and people "will" do to themselves whatever, regardless...
...plus theres the old supply and demand argument... where theres a demand theres a supply and vice a versa!
Just stop ...and think for a minute... and you will realize that this is all just a futile argument over social semantics!
My question to all who read this is,
what right does a "society" have over what a person can do to there own body? and
isn't there a guarantee under the constitution preventing other peoples from interfering in another persons inalienable rights? rights which include the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.
just a thought for your day
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» RE: This is just a logical conclusion....
Posted by: talkville
» Bravo... well said...
Posted by: Bearzerker
» RE: Bravo... well said...
Posted by: talkville
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 27, 2007 2:33 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» No one said you have to grovel...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: No one said you have to grovel...
Posted by: wildgeese
» Of course doctors and nurses should treat patients as individuals.
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Of course doctors and nurses should treat patients as individuals.CARING, YES
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jul 27, 2007 10:21 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can you elaborate?
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» RE: for Gistre...
Posted by: grumble-bum
Comments are closed-
Posted by: drband36 on Jul 28, 2007 12:03 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Have you read "The Death of the West" by Pat Buchanan? You seem to fear a brown planet almost as much as he does.
Having children is not an arms race. It's not the cold war. We shouldn't be trying to out-breed anybody. We should instead try to actually educate young Americans so that the are capable of excelling in the 21st century, rather than teaching to the test and running them through mazes of multiple choice questions that assess rote learning, but never teach them how to *think* or *reason*.
The overall color of America doesn't matter. Racist folks said the arrival of the Irish on our shores would be the end of us...and the Italians...and the Poles...etc. Seems we did pretty well after we finally got over that BS mindset (well, most of us got over it, anyway). What *does* matter is that, as we get more crowded, we're eventually going to destroy each other like rats in a cage. Bigotry is going to be a luxury, or a mere memory, when we literally don't have enough clean water to go around or NYC is half underwater.
I have only two bumperstickers on my car:
"Fewer Humans/More Humanity"
and
"Overpopulation: How Dense Can We Get?"
These are on the back of my Honda Insight, which gets 65+ mpg on the highway, and which I can drive because I don't have children (it's a 2-seater. My hubby and I love it). I bring it up because I can tell you that when I bought it (right before 9/11), people were legitimately curious about it and would ask questions about how the hybrid engine worked. Now, they see my car coming and just seem angry...it's as if I'm just reminding them that we're in trouble, and that they're paying $3 for gas, with the profits going largely to countries that hate us. It's as if lots of people have just given up and resigned themselves to the idea that these are the "end times" (aided, of course, by their pastors, who still somehow have no problem with maximum breeding!).
Why is it that I, a childfree woman with no theorhetical stake in the future, seem to care more about that future and our environment than parents do? They're the ones who should be lining up to put solar panels on their houses while they downsize from SUVs to station wagons...but I don't see it happening.
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» Good on ya dr
Posted by: Veronique
» RE: Good on ya dr
Posted by: drband36
Comments are closed-
Posted by: talkville on Jul 28, 2007 4:01 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Bearzerker on Jul 28, 2007 3:26 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
you give honest rednecks a bad name!
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Posted by: NWCrow on Jul 30, 2007 2:15 PM
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Posted by: lwbaby on Jul 27, 2007 9:26 PM
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That is total bullsh*t.
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» "TOTAL Bullsh*t"? Really?
Posted by: grumble-bum
» If you where my wife...
Posted by: Bearzerker
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Posted by: talkville on Jul 28, 2007 3:48 AM
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It would be difficult to show that a female with means and influence would be unable to obtain a tubal ligation even below the age of 30. There's morals and conduct for the masses, then there's Morals and Conduct for the few. Here in the USA the transformation is from Patriarchy to Parentarchy -- and from citizenship to children-ship. A gloomy re-institution of the status quo and conformity filled "with sound and fury" and signifying a tread-mill.
We are well on the way to Theocracy. Who will decide for us which God is to rule?
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Posted by: ray burchard on Jul 28, 2007 5:18 AM
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In these cases, maybe "Tubal Ligation should be manditory, does mankinds gene pool continuum really need this, "I'm special"... she has her rights to the exclusion of all, contribution?
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» RE: Tubal Ligation addresses the wrong end of the problem
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Tubal Ligation addresses the wrong end of the problem
Posted by: NWCrow
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Posted by: karyse on Jul 28, 2007 12:03 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's see, someone should have children because,
1) you're supposed to
2) you're SELFISH if you don't have children (upside down reasoning here). "I want MY genes transmitted through the ages." There are many, many children ready to be adopted. No need to add to the population to show how UNSELFISH you are.
3) Though I didn't see anyone say this directly, in some cases it was implied; sex for reasons other than procreation is a sin.
4) Do it because your parents want grandchildren.
5) It just happened by accident but NOW I really love them.
Well I guess I couldn't think of any good reason to have children unless because "I want them" is a good reason. It seems that as with xian rationale, proponents of having children can't see beyond their own whims and perspective. Me, I would take it a step further, anyone who wants children, especially anyone who wants more than two (natural -- as opposed to adopted) children, should be subjected to psychological counseling and testing to make sure they are not insane. AND, rather then getting tax breaks for having children they should pay MORE taxes because the young consume so much and give so little.
Oh, I know I get slammed for this, but so be it.
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» RE: reason
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: reason
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: reason
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: reason
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: reason
Posted by: drband36
» RE: reason
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: reason
Posted by: NWCrow
» RE: reason
Posted by: drband36
» Nice smackdown
Posted by: Curio
» RE: reason
Posted by: drband36
» RE: reason
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: sorry drband...
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: reason
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: reason
Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: reason
Posted by: Sushi
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Posted by: Sushi on Jul 29, 2007 9:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That alone should be reason enough for those who cherish children.
How ironic that those who are anti-choice are anti-choice pre-pregnancy as well!
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» RE: The MOST important reason
Posted by: drband36
» RE: Thank you, drband36!
Posted by: Sushi
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Posted by: ld7440 on Jul 29, 2007 10:55 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» She's an adult WOMAN, not a girl
Posted by: Arcane Rose
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Posted by: dogwhisperer on Jul 29, 2007 7:29 PM
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Posted by: wildidaho on Jul 30, 2007 7:36 AM
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Although person after person (almost ALL OF THEM WOMEN) have, over the years, asked me "Don't you feel like something is missing? Are you SURE you don't regret the choice to be childless?" (as if they are trying to convince me), I have yet to "regret my choice".
What is to regret? Some of us know from an early age that having babies is not for us. I, too, disliked dolls, I was all about the stuffed animals and coloring books, never once as a kid did I own a doll that wasn't unilaterally ignored by me.
Some of us have maternal instincts that are best served by "mothering" something other than babies. For me - it's foster dogs. Perhaps for others the mothering instinct is simply not a strong need @ all.
It bothers me that so many women even now are being told "you're too young, you might change your mind" - as if these women have no mind of their own to decide which choise is best for them. I lived in California @ the time my tubal was done, I had to go through a week of pre-surgery counseling, then I was asked to take time after the counseling to make sure the choice was one I really believed in, since it is considered permanent, then I was left to CHOOSE for myself.
I have a question for those who claim "Alas, what if the poor dear changes her mind later?" - what business is it to you if she changes her mind later? Let us say she decides @ age 35 that she wants a baby, but she has made that choice improbable forever for her. That is HER issue - and as an adult SHE gets to deal with it. This is what being an adult is about, living with our choices (good, bad, mixed).
Adult women are not children. We really should be allowed to choose what is right (or for that matter what is WRONG) for us. We need not be treated like creatures who know not our own minds.
To tell an adult woman she is too young to choose is insulting, degrading, belittling and any dr. who would say such a thing to me would get his behind fired on the spot. It's MY choice, not dr. X's.
wild
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Posted by: tltfaas on Jul 30, 2007 2:37 PM
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I initially tried to get my tubes tied when I was 23 or so after two divorces and realizing I was too unstable emotionally to have a child. No doctor would tie my tubes. Despite using two forms of birth control I had a child at 26 with a man who abandoned me when he found out I was pregnant. I had neither the money for an abortion and the father refused to sign the adoption papers. So I ended up raising an unwanted child and twenty years later I wonder what my life would have been like if I had gotten my tubes tied at 23.
My mixed feelings come into play when my son was two. I was pregnant again after being raped and my ob-gyn felt that I was too young to get my tubes tied. I had to threaten to kill myself and my son in order to get him to do the procedure. Fortunately, I had a miscarriage and then the doctor performed the procedure two months later.
Yes, the doctor had the right to refuse to do the surgery but I was a patient who should not have had any children let alone the one I had. If he had refused despite my threats then I would have shopped for a doctor who would help me.
What really confused me and still does is why this doctor, my family and my friends did not intervene when it was clear that I was severely depressed and hated my son. No one would intervene to save my son or I and it is nothing short of a miracle that he survives today.
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Posted by: rustynails on Jul 31, 2007 4:25 AM
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Posted by: duval on Jul 31, 2007 6:47 PM
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Posted by: gurly on Jul 31, 2007 9:59 PM
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Posted by: Ruby on Aug 1, 2007 2:24 PM
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The doctor asked that I wait six months to make sure I really wanted to tie my tubes. [FYI--I do not defer to doctors in any way so am in no way defending any perceived paternalism, although there is plenty of that around. However, I don't agree turning women down for this is about money. Taking advantage of a young mind and performing the surgery without question IS].
I went back. He did it. Yee-ha, I was free.
Fast forward to when I remarried at age 33. Everything changed--my husband, my life circumstances, but most important: my mind.
Thank goodness for reversal surgery (and insurance both times) and my four beautiful sons.
That said, do what you want. But don't think not feeling maternal BEFORE having children is a predictor for actually not being maternal. That feeling can kick in without you planning it, perhaps after you have kids.
You have no idea what it's like to have kids until you have them. Babysitting others, stepchildren--it's not the same. There is a physical pull that you can't know without having them. I am a great mother, not perfect, but passionate about my children. Who knew?
Maybe the doctors...
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» RE: I regret it.
Posted by: lindalee
» RE: I regret it.
Posted by: Ruby
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Posted by: luzmejor on Aug 1, 2007 3:40 PM
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That results in permanent sterilization. I predict that many doctors will begin to use this new technique soon.
Oops, there goes that phony concern over "unneeded and dangerous" surgery!
O.R. nurses know most doctors don't consider surgical pregnancy or gynecological procedures dangerous. You don't find them insisting that women with sextuplets reduce fetus numbers because multiple birth is downright harmful and usually damaging to the mother's health. To the contrary, they always go along with the self-destructive wishes of the family to go ahead and develop however many eggs have hatched.
Why? Because those actually dangerous procedures pay a lot more! That is the same reason that gynecologists like the hefty fees they get for assisting childbirth, as opposed to cheaper and easier sterilizations of people who want no children.
They love Caesarian Sections, though, even doing them on patient request and often only to preserve their own schedules. The money is even better for that kind of surgery!
Fie on patriarchal ideas altogether. They have nothing to do with women's health, safety or freedom. They are promoted
because homebound women are less threatening to religious bigots than women who have independence and adequate resources.
Someone should remind these bozos that "regret" never killed anyone, but major surgery and ordinary childbirth definitely do.
A great many women are having children they "regret" for many years.
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Posted by: taxigirl on Aug 12, 2007 8:39 AM
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I was sterilized involuntarily at age 17 in the course of an abortion. The doc said "people like me shouldn't have children." But no later doc would finish the job - meaning that I spent my reproductive years knowing I could conceive but not carry to term. Why? Docs didn't want to be involved in such a messy case.
What was optional for them didn't feel that way for me, and prolonged the trauma by many years. Incidentally, I stand by that abortion -- it was the right decision, regardless of consequences. But choice is never uncomplicated, and we can never consider issues of "reproductive choice" without considering questions of economic freedom: women without familial or infrastructural support to raise a child in sufficiency and health have a very different set of "choices" to make. So what may seem like "optional" surgery to a middle class doc can feel pretty life-determining to an economically vulnerable young woman.
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