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Is Monogamy Natural?
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"I was in the middle of a desert," he remembers. "Nobody would ever know."
It's funny how we can have two seemingly opposite urges at the same time. A lifetime of love. A quick roll with a total stranger.
He said no.
Because he loves his wife. Because he wouldn't want to ruin his life by losing her. But choices such as the one he made that day on the sand aren't totally matters of morality. They're not about cartoon angels and devils sparring on our shoulders.
They're science talking.
Vaunted in the mainstream media, two new reports from the Pew Research Center report and the National Survey of Families and Households indicate that couples become bored and unhappy sooner than was previously thought: more like three years into their togetherness than seven.
Well, sure, says Quirk, whose book Sperm Are From Men, Eggs Are From Women (Running Press, 2006) details what he calls "the science of relationships." A three-year itch makes plain biological sense, he says.
"This is when your genes are saying, in effect, 'No child has been produced. Move on.'" In relationship matters, Quirk says,"we tend to consult our feelings. Well, where do our feelings come from? Emotions are instincts. Lust is an instinct. Marriage is an instinct."
Sometimes those two collude. Sometimes they collide. But among heterosexuals at least, both indiscriminate lust and what biologists call the pair-bond are hyperpowered programs streamlined through millions of years of evolution to produce one paramount result: offspring, preferably those who will live long enough to reproduce.
"Desires that dominate in our psyches are those that are best at getting genes into the next generation," Quirk says. "Our desires are designed to get us to the next life stage. The initial joy of pair-bonding evolved because it got us to the baby-raising phase." In which case, honeymoon bliss is yet another consummately efficient biological function that meets a need, rather like pissing.
"Lots of animals," Quirk says, "have the 'marriage' instinct: penguins, parrots, swans, gibbons, seahorses, humans. ... What do all these animals have in common? Long childhoods. Who has the longest childhood in the animal kingdom? Humans." For species whose slow-growing offspring statistically stand better chances of survival with two parents providing double-sustenance, double-vigilance, double-protection and double-support, monogamy makes scientific sense. But because it's so difficult "to live in the same nest for 15 years," as Quirk puts it, "love is an instinct coded into our genes."
Fool yourself all you want about free will.
"We inherited the desire to fall in love," Quirk insists, because that soul-baring, die-for-you devotion helped our ancestors "raise babies on the dangerous Pleistocene savanna."
He'd get an argument from the intellectual anti-love crowd. Certainly from Guggenheim Foundation fellow Laura Kipnis, who in Against Love: A Polemic (Pantheon, 2003) argues fiercely but with a sardonic smile that love -- not even monogamy or domesticity, but love -- is not an evolutionary legacy but "a new form of mass conscription," a lockstep drill like organized religion, performed under "marching orders" from nefarious overlord forces that don't want us to notice our "flagging ardor," which is the lot of the committed. Kipnis rages against "domestic gulags," against "the straitjacketed roles that such familiarity predicates ... the boredom and the rigidities which aren't about to be transcended in this or any other lifetime." Invoking Karl Marx, she compares love to a factory, calling them both "social institutions ... [that] come to subsume and dominate" their victims "like a hostile alien force."
How to escape that evil grip?
"Adultery ... is at least a reliable way of proving to ourselves that we're not in the ground quite yet," Kipnis writes, "especially when feeling a little dead inside."
You see it everywhere these days except the Hallmark Channel, this charge that monogamy is bad for us -- as a species, as a society, as red-blooded primates whose DNA is almost identical to that of bonobos. You remember bonobos. Five years ago everyone was talking about these pygmy chimpanzees, an endangered species numbering several thousand and native to a between-rivers swatch of the Democratic Republic of Congo, distinctive for engaging in so much nonmonogamous sex: face-to-face sex and same-gender sex and oral sex. "Sex-crazed Bonobos May Be More Like Humans Than Thought" hooted the headline of an article in Science Today. It was hard not to worry: Am I less sexy than a bonobo?
At least three different pop songs are titled "No Such Thing as Love," one by Dwight Yoakam, one by the Roches, one by the late Ian Dury. Their lyrics are different, but the message is the same. Frank Zappa sang: "There ain't no such thing as love, no angels singing. ... Why should I be stuck with you? It's just not what I want to do."
So wait -- are we building our dreams together, or chained to the machinery of someone else's brave new world? Are we throwbacks: Mr., Mrs. and Ms. Myth, our vows and pledges vestiges of a sexist, classist, fearful, funless antiquity?
Awash in a popular-culture chaos that on one hand thrusts images of happy-coupledom down our throats while simultaneously whispering that marriage might be a neocon plot, we question our commitments. Are they really that -- or cowardice? We question the meanings of stability, of loyalty. "Can we be protected without there being a protection racket?" asks celebrity psychologist Adam Phillips -- whom Kipnis admires -- in his book Monogamy (Pantheon, 1996). Phillips' barbed aphorisms read like fortune-cookie fortunes dispensed in restaurants next-door to divorce courts:
- A couple is a conspiracy in search of a crime. Sex is often the closest they can get.
- We are never unfaithful, we are just sometimes faithful in ways we don't like.
- Fidelity shouldn't always be taken personally.
- In private life the word we is a pretension.
Everywhere we look (even on the Hallmark Channel), we are reminded again and again that the U.S. divorce rate is a staggering 50 percent. So, see? Why bother? Kipnis seizes on that statistic too. Actually, it's closer to .38 percent per capita per year, according to the latest U.S. Census Bureau and National Center for Health Statistics figures. This means about four out of every 1,000 Americans -- or 1 in 250 -- will get divorced every year. And that's the lowest it's been since 1970, marking a steady decline -- down from .48 percent in 1992. While .38 percent might seem minuscule, year by year, a married person's odds of getting divorced will add up, so that eventually half of all American marriages fail. But divorce statistics are notoriously open to interpretation, and competing ideological camps post varying claims about what the raw numbers mean. According to a report released by Rutgers University's National Marriage Project, 43 percent of first marriages end in divorce, not 50 percent -- an improvement over percentages in past decades.
One reason that fewer marriages fail these days is that fewer of us rush into them. Or even tie the knot at all. Since 1970, the U.S. marriage rate has plummeted by around 30 percent, according to the Rutgers report. Changing social mores have removed the stigma from what used to be called "living in sin." The number of unmarried cohabitating American couples has mushroomed since 1970 by over 1,000 percent, according to the Rutgers report. But statisticians don't keep track of failed cohabitations and boyfriend-girlfriend breakups.
Which in turn doesn't mean that we aren't mostly monogamous.
"I'm reluctant to say that something like monogamy could be genetically determined," says Gordy Slack, author of The Battle Over the Meaning of Everything: Evolution, Intelligent Design, and a School Board in Dover, PA (Jossey-Bass, 2007). "But humans are incredibly adaptable; our adaptability is one of the reasons for our success as a species. We evolve cultures that are specific to different times and places, different environments. In some of these situations, monogamy is appropriate and has great adaptive value. In others, it would be cultural suicide." Spinning a scenario that evokes the 1970s sex-fantasy sci-fi flicks Zardoz and A Boy and His Dog, he describes a theoretical population that has for one reason or another been reduced to several women and just one man. Monogamy, Slack points out, "would be the end of that little society."
But beyond such catastrophes, cultural values influence our sexual tendencies.
"In a society that really values monogamy," such as the mainstream West, "promiscuity will be defined as a problem," Slack says. Yet both of those opposite-direction urges keep species healthy.
"Organisms need to try to maximize their evolutionary success," Slack says, noting recent studies revealing that many species long believed to be exclusively pair-bonded aren't. Aided by advances in DNA technology allowing biologists to track parentage conclusively, these new studies show that "a lot of sneaking has been going on" among the birds and the bees, Slack says,. Literally. Barn swallows and chickadees cheat.
Thus that hot little dilemma Joe Quirk faced at Burning Man.
"Because children take so long to raise, men inherited two needs," Quirk says. "They need to impregnate a fertile body. And they need a good mother to raise the result. These are separable needs." Male wiring reasons: "Just because I invest my love and labor in one woman to make sure our offspring survive doesn't mean I don't have spare sperm. Can't hurt to toss a couple extra out there and see if they take. Some of my ancestors succeeded at the fathering strategy. Some succeeded at the fornicating strategy. They've passed on their desires to me."
It's the same for women, more or less. "Because children take so long to raise, women inherited two needs," Quirk says. "They need a good nest to raise the healthy baby. They need good genes to raise the healthy baby. The best nest might come from your husband. The best genes might come from somebody else's husband. It's hard to get both in the same guy."
If we inherited a falling-in-love gene, Quirk adds, "we also inherited the desire to sneak hot genes on the side. We come into this world tormented."
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jul 25, 2007 3:15 AM
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Posted by: Pau on Jul 25, 2007 3:37 AM
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But I believe that the main problem is not monogamy, nor love. Love exists, it has little to do with sex.
The problem is jealousy and the sense of property... or is it the fear of abandonment?. When we desire something, we do not appreciate someone else taking it awat from us, but there is a lot of confusion in the culture of modern man (and I mean modern man in a very wide sense, the product of the development of agriculture, property of the land, inheritance and heirs, confusion between territorial imperative and personal property.
On top of a reptilian brain, mainlly reproductive brain, develops a brain that cares for the offsprings. A further development allows us to plan for the future, be aware of our consciousness. And confusion begins, not yet solved by evolution. We either solve it or will be a doomed species.
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» RE: Is Monogamy natural?
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Posted by: Abushite on Jul 25, 2007 3:54 AM
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Why is it that Alternet's space is invaded repeatedly by women
who are obsessed by sex? Give us a break let's talk about the idiot GWB.
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» RE: Women are not obsessed...
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Posted by: ryazbeck on Jul 25, 2007 3:55 AM
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Posted by: halg on Jul 25, 2007 4:14 AM
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I lust and have lusted for more than one mate most of my life. On one hand, I want intellectual compatibility. At other times, I want sexual release (read: "I am horny"). And serial monogamy is not half as fun as some would have me believe.
I have never married, and have rarely been in a steady relationship. I have fallen in love many times, and have somehow survived the emotional ruin subsequent to those brief runs. I have heart problems, and stewing in heartbreak does nothing to make me feel any stronger.
Yeah, it's lonely down here in scumbrainworld sometimes. But the occassional shot of sleaze-induced sexual adrenalyn feels great. I'm selective and careful at all times, and I always try to be honest and kind to everyone I meet. I do not pose as a "really" if I am only looking for a "player." And I NEVER cheat if those are the rules in a relationship. I am ethical.
I guess what I am saying is, I kind of like my life this way after all; I only thought it was really rotten. (The only shortcoming is that I may have missed out on raising children.) But I see nothing "wrong" or invalid about the way I live my life.
I'm sure the holier-than-thou crowd out there will condemn me for being a devil-worshipper or something, when all I am in reality is a nonconformist. Hopefully, Alternet draws a more intellectual crowd.
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Posted by: Suzon on Jul 25, 2007 4:29 AM
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There is hardly anything more obvious in the world than conflicting desires and attachments. If we were totally indiscriminating or totally faithful and commited, there would be no need for love songs or romantic comedies.
I have suggested elsewhere that it might be better if marriages had expiration dates, say after 20 years or when the youngest child is 18. Then you could choose to invest in the marriage so that it could continue on a voluntary basis and/or invest in the children by giving them a secure upbringing.
If you made a poor choice (or were just complacent) you could walk away without putting yourself and others through a lot of emotional turmoil.
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Posted by: Neilium on Jul 25, 2007 4:38 AM
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There are ' no monogamous primates' it just won't work out in the forest, the female can get her own food of course as can the male and baby will also as soon as it can grab hold of some fruit. Many indigenous cultures practise polygamy and have no problems that encourage them to be any different, but then again that is not the natural way of primates. A female dominated culture is a primate one with one dominant male and the rest are bachelors in waiting on the outskirts of the core group. Don't be chumps, learn about chimps
Monogamy is unnatural in the human primate.
I know.. I've tried, "joke"
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Posted by: drinkycro on Jul 25, 2007 5:08 AM
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I've heard statements like this from other women. For the most part they tended to be educated, liberal, single, childless and miserable. I attribute it to sour grapes; it's quite simple really.
When people are angry and jealous they tend to diminish and attack the object of their jealousy. I would guess these ladies are deeply sad, that they themselves don't have these "Hallmark" relationships. So, they dump all over the institution itself, to feel slightly less awful. But, given the chance, I think most of them would jump at the opportunity for all that "old fashioned romance/marriage stuff".
I've seen it happen before (many times): the liberal, cynical, big-city girl sits in the coffee shop, bitterly griping about patriarchy, biological destiny, the liberating joys of polyamory, etc. One day she meets that "special someone" and all that's out the window. Pretty soon, she has a spring in her step, dresses better, is CHEERFUL and no longer disses marriage...a total 180 degree turn.
Look, everything we do is driven by our biology, which is designed by evolution. Any action or sentiment, is "like pissing"...no matter how noble. However, how we see ourselves and our actions is important to our psychological well-being. I think we ought to see ourselves in a positive light. There's a reason most successful human cultures traditionally supported pair-bonding and have large bodies of work extolling the nicer points of romantic pairing: feel better, act better, build stable, decent families and society flourishes; feel miserable and cynical, don't build stable families, and society decays...and is replaced by other, stronger society.
Anyhow, the short of it all: stop being so bitter, find someone to love, love them well, be loyal, expect loyalty, give everything if you want the same in return, and don't be afraid of babies...they're pretty cool when they are your own :)
Good luck and be happy
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Posted by: terradea on Jul 25, 2007 5:27 AM
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Love, that's spiritual. Love is a deeper connection, a feeling that someone else is more important than yourself. There is no jealousy in love, only compassion, connection, understanding and a need to see the other happy and fulfilled.
When I see my lover enjoy himself sexually, it doesn't matter if it's with me or with someone else. I love him and want to see him experience pleasure. And he feels the same way with regard to me.
People who break up over sexual infidelity (how silly is that phrase?) are really breaking up because society and religion tells them they should be hurt. If people followed their instincts, there would be no monogamy, and sex would be considered a natural and valuable gift from nature or from their creator.
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Jul 25, 2007 5:28 AM
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Is it not obvious that Love is not an evolutionary mechanism, a cog in a symbolic order, be it that of naive romantic-love or evolutionary (socio-)biology? Love does not necessarily get your genes closer to or further from reproduction. Is Love not the ethical form we take when we have come to grips with not only the real-death of our biological organism, but the conscious, experiential being of language? In that sense, there is no room for talk of Love as an evolutionary agent.
The pact people make with each other in the name of Love is a facade like the evolutionary psychologist says. This does not mean that we are talking about Love though, which is not about good feelings nor bad feelings, rewards or punishments, sex or children, but giving something you don't have to someone who doesn't want it.
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Posted by: otto on Jul 25, 2007 6:17 AM
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Jul 25, 2007 6:17 AM
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The first time---for sex
The second time---for children
The third time---for companionship
As a gay person and commited bachelor, I think marriage--at least in the idealized American perception of it---has been sold to young people in a totally fu*ked-up state by right-wing christianity, Hollywood media, and churches. I have talked to more young people, and especially the girls have a completely unrealistic fairy-tale view of marriage.
Having seen some brutal divorces among others in my family, I'm glad I stayed single.
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Posted by: messedup on Jul 25, 2007 6:28 AM
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Posted by: Pau on Jul 25, 2007 7:30 AM
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If you do not believe in evolution, nothing can be the result of evolution. If you believe in evolution, wasn't there a particular stage in the evolutionary process when the brain developped the capacity for love?.
TO me the answer is a clear yes. And that capacity allowed the species whose offsprings needed help in order to survive, to survive themselves as species.
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» RE: Love is not evolutionary..?
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Posted by: bw on Jul 25, 2007 7:34 AM
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We come from a long history of promiscuous primates, and monogamy is a truce between our urge to be promiscuous and our obsessive preference for only one. We are better at demanding monogamy from our partner than we are at displaying it ourselves, but most of the time it works fairly well.
Once the obsessiveness starts to wear down, the promiscuity rises in importance by default, and we revert to behavior that is more deeply engrained than the monogamy is. With care, respect and true love, the relationship can be nurtured for a lifetime. But with inattention, or where there was nothing but obsession in the first place, the relationship will wither in perhaps 3 to 5 years.
We marry for a predictable time not because evolution selected that span for the good of children, not because evolution demands we move on if there are no children. We marry for predictable times because it takes a predictable time for obsessiveness to wear down.
Read The Passionate Ape.
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Posted by: hellofriends on Jul 25, 2007 7:48 AM
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Posted by: ArtemInox on Jul 25, 2007 8:27 AM
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jul 25, 2007 8:49 AM
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Quite natural, then.
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Posted by: solrev on Jul 25, 2007 8:51 AM
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The nature nurture debate has been around for a long time and the more we learn the more nurture becomes dominant. Discoveries such as genes effecting more than one property, and identical twin studies that show chromosomes change over time depending on which genes are turned on, really complicate the issue. The science is in its infancy. It is impossible to demonstrate any instinctual behavior in human beings. Instinctual behaviors are by design something that can not be overcome. Any instinctual behavior you attribute to human beings can easily be dismissed. One can find groups historically and presently who cognitively do not perform that behavior in their social group. “Fool yourself all you want about free will”, the author is wrong again. Now for the good part sex, sex is physically pleasurable to the human body. Ones sexual behavior or expression is a learned behavior. The problem arises from so many different teachers, thus the confusion. Since I am a Christian I know most of the sexual taboos being taught, or taboos of any kind, are not about the behavior itself but they are about the consequences. For instance in my area in the last year two Iraqi vets came home and killed the dudes screwing their wives while they were in Iraq. My advice to anyone is in your pursuit of happiness do what ever you want, just be aware that actions have reactions and beware of the consequences.
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» RE: sex is a mind game
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Posted by: Pirate1 on Jul 25, 2007 9:39 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here because of our inherited "morality" we are expected to refrain from sex with anyone but the person we marry and risk losing everthing if we get caught following our natural ways. As a former teacher I can tell you the pressure's gotten so bad and the understanding of our nature so weak that young teens must endure being held to those same standards if they kiss more than one person or go on dates with more than one person. Girls in tears after being called a slut for being friendly with more than just one guy? Guys being called pimp or horn dog because they are interested in several young females. Come on, how does this serve mate selection? They're supposed to spend the rest of their lives with that first crush just because he/she was the first to get a kiss? What EVER are you parents TELLING these kids? Youth is the biggest time we ever get for sampling what is out there and getting a sense of what we ourselves might actually want in the physical aspect of a relationship and putting these pressures on youth already stressed to the max to "perform" scholastically has a lot to do, I think, with the absurdly high divorce rate in this country. Almost twice that of Europe. After school ends and they begin to develop some perspective they see the sham of everything they did because that's what everyone else expected of them and begin to be themselves by leaving a lot of it behind... including marriages to people they were with because they'd be a slut or a pimp if they did anything else.
We forget that we are primates and that all these restrictions in all aspects of our lives, especially around sex make us ill.
Nature is natural. Tune into it and follow it and you'll live long and happier lives.
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» RE: Lest we forget...affairs for MEN
Posted by: bouyant
» highly debatable..
Posted by: superdan
» RE: Lest we forget...
Posted by: treehugr
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Posted by: adh on Jul 25, 2007 9:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I actually think jealousy and anger over infidelity are natural competitive primate emotions, from an evolutionary standpoint its quite understandable to be pissed off if your female partner gets knocked up with someone else's kid that you now have to raise, or if your male partner falls for a younger more "genetically fit" female and leaves you high and dry.
What religion and social conditioning do is amplify and focus those instinctive emotions in order to achieve social control: it is common to see people behave in a completely insane manner with relation to the possibility of their partner being sexual with someone else. A lot of people seem to believe that 'cheating' is one of the worst things you can do to a person, and should rightly be punished with absolute loathing and abuse. I can't see how that could be right, how guilt and self-denial could possibly be considered healthier than openness and honesty, and I think our tendencies towards jealousy are just another example of how absolute loyalty to instinct leads to selfish and irrational behavior. Everyone thinks its acceptable to restrain and control our feelings of aggression and hatred, why do we not expand the field to jealousy and possessiveness, emotions that seem out of place in a liberal society where relationships are (supposedly) entered into voluntarily?
Anyway what I'm getting at in this long winding rant is that there will always be problems whether in monogamy or without so long as people continue to behave like robots blindly following social conditioning and not developing genuine understanding of their own emotions. The fact that our society has ONE model of the ideal relationship with stereotyped behaviors associated with it that millions of people just so happen follow to the letter should set off alarms in peoples heads that things are not right. People need to trust themselves and eachother enough to create their own relationships and negotiate their own parameters if they ever want to be genuinely free to show genuine emotion, rather than live out scripts that have been pre-written for them by a bunch of hacks.
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» RE: I think people should always remember: adh
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: I think people should always remember: adh
Posted by: freethink7
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Posted by: freethink7 on Jul 25, 2007 9:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-We stay married because we want to, not because it’s based on whether or not pop-psychology mandates it’s acceptable
-We stay married in spite of the notion that marriage, and one person monogamy/love is outdated + supposedly obsolete
-We aren’t concerned that [theoretically] humans are products of evolutionary-biological forces, therefore, ultimately we must be non-monogamous creatures
-We neither care if monogamy is natural, unnatural, or popular, or unpopular: we choose to stay monogamous because this is our choice
-We believe in the (radical?) notion of love and that lifetime monogamous love is possible
-We continue to stay married in spite of the fact that statistics say 50% of marriages fail/50% survive
-We don’t feel the need to explain why we’ve been married for so many years, even though some of our family-friends who were married at the same time we married have divorced
-We continue to work through our problems (and marriage has its fair share of problems) instead of running from them (divorce is so easy!) But after 20+ years of marriage we have reached a point where our problems are minimal
-We’re both liberal and believe in the institution of marriage and monogamy
-We neither want nor feel the need to fit into any of the stereotypes/labels presented in this article
Since we don’t fit any of the preconceived carefully constructed albeit narrow parameters and stereotypes presented in this article, statistically speaking, we must be anomalies…..but we don’t care. Lifetime love and commitment is ultimately more important to us than fitting into some pop-psychology-pop-culture schematic blueprint dictating who we should be or should not be. Who cares anyway…..if you are happy being single, dating, non-monogamous, fine. If, on the other hand you want to be in love and married for a lifetime (with the same person!) that’s fine also.
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» But you MADE a genuine choice
Posted by: adh
» But you MADE a genuine choice
Posted by: adh
» RE: Some of Us Have Been Married.....BUT What IF one cheated?
Posted by: bouyant
» RE: Some of Us Have Been Married.....BUT What IF one cheated?
Posted by: Pirate1
» RE: All of us PUT UP with a way of being...
Posted by: Pirate1
» Please....
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» Please....Dear mmeetoilenoir
Posted by: freethink7
» Please....Dear mmeetoilenoir
Posted by: freethink7
» Pirate1: Sigh….Well, Where do I Start Addressing Your Comment, or Should I? I Choose to Because…….
Posted by: freethink7
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Posted by: BillDouglas on Jul 25, 2007 9:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is that?
In ancient Indian Vedic, and ancient Chinese energy medicine, both recognized that powerful energy generators in the pelvic area of the body, are the source of "creative" energy. Yes, pro-creative energy in the sense of sex and child creation.
But, they are also the same energy generators for other types of creative energy which becomes art, music, new ideas on how to approach challenges in our lives and in society.
In modern society, especially in America, media makes a big deal about being an "individualist," etc. But, how do they say you do that? By buying the new cool car or electronic gadget that millions of others are buying. It's insultingly ludicrous once we pull our heads far enough out of the matrix to see it for what it is.
Our education system is increasingly not an exercise in mind expansion, but rather a factory process to create widgets who can pull levers and punch buttons, but not think creatively. Truly creative citizens are unruly and hard to control.
So in humanity's, and America's frustration with our repressed creative urges, they get turned toward unbridled lust. Why? One, because sex is natural to us, but also because the corporate media uses sex relentlessly to sell us "anything."
The next level of humanity will require tremendous creativity to address the burgeoning population's needs. We all feel the need for new fresh ideas, but our system isn't built to foster or in many cases even allow it. Four times more children are on psychotropic drugs today, as were a decade ago, so that they can be made to "fit in."
If Einstein or Edison were in school today, they'd have them on ritalyn. Airline stewardesses are now, according to recent reports, encouraging parents to drug their babies, so they'll fit in better on the plane's ambiance.
Creativity is what our souls are hungering for. Find it. Write poetry, music, paint, etc. etc. etc. Innovate in the face of a society that wants you to just "fit in." It'll be the best thing you can do for your relationship, and for your world.
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» RE: The Energy/Spiritual Nature of Lust: Bill Douglas
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: The Energy/Spiritual Nature of Lust: Bill Douglas
Posted by: hellofriends
» re: Spiritual Sex - and TANTRA-plus Men keep sperm in and Female ejaculation too!
Posted by: barb123
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Posted by: axjxhx on Jul 25, 2007 9:51 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this kind of discussion ALWAYS seems to leave out just how many THOUSANDS of years we have been modernized beyond that of PRIMATE (if one is to believe that we evolved that way)....as if we were all picking fleas out of each others' hair just about a month ago.
this kind of incessant reminder of "where we came from" does NOT help humans to respect each other more. IT ONLY GIVES INFIDELITY ROOM TO GROW.....because, as you see, it's a part of our inherent nature....see??? this way, cheating is seen as a "human" quality......THUS, JUSTIFYING WHEN OUR MALE LEADERS LEAD US INTO POLITICAL INFIDELITY: cheating everyone out of QUALITY OF LIFE.
it's just absolutely amazing to me that more people out there can not seem to make this connection. the more we give up on the idea of companionship the more we give up on the idea of quality of life. just what was it that stopped that guy in the desert from cheating on his wife??......the idea that his quality of life will be hindered by his irresponsible actions. he gave all options a thought, and was able to deter his "primal urge" because i KNOW he understands that he is FAR from being a monkey. now, THAT is a MODERN MAN!
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» RE: justification for irresponsibility
Posted by: drinkycro
» RE: justification for irresponsibility
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: justification for irresponsibility
Posted by: Blix
» RE: justification for irresponsibility
Posted by: sterlingdave54
» RE: justification for irresponsibility: axjxhx
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: justification for irresponsibility: axjxhx
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: justification for irresponsibility
Posted by: ArtemInox
» RE: justification for irresponsibility
Posted by: Diana Boston
» RE: justification for irresponsibility
Posted by: axjxhx
» French politicians are notorious for "infidelity"...
Posted by: superdan
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Posted by: montal on Jul 25, 2007 10:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ZPaul on Jul 25, 2007 10:08 AM
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Posted by: feminist on Jul 25, 2007 10:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am way overwhelmed by all the girls behaving badly, “raunch culture”, bridezilla programs that cater to this marriage culture. Conservative politics, i.e. GWB (from the one book he has ever read), determined that if women would just get married there would be no more poverty. Plueese…what planet is he on?? Where does this stuff come from?? Not to throw stones but could the strong encouragement for marriage and its so called concrete traditional heritage come from hundreds of years of organized, religious, corporate, male dominated societies we live in? Yes, I too have succumbed to the institution and have also paid its price, but somehow have realized that self worth, that societal validation and “love” (whatever that is) comes from within not from marriage.
Give me Katherine Hepburn who is quoted as saying “why give up the admiration of many men for the criticism of one”
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» RE: socialized to control the masses
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: socialized to control the masses
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: socialized to control the masses
Posted by: hellofriends
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Posted by: wleming on Jul 25, 2007 10:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Times have changed, and its now career enhancing.time for the canny academic:...voila: academics can now present what capitalism and advertising have been doing for decades... as 'cutting edge" theorising. Mom and home and the kids are not whats being marketing to the singles crowd--witness rock music, dvd, cd, liquor and cigarette ads preaching a consumerist hedonism
that would leave Nero feeling very behind the curve. Monogamy is for the middle brow suburbanite for whom stone washed jeans is kinda "outside" ja know? The ad driven jive shifts as the demographics and age groups shift.. but the rock driven consumerist bull--morphs to marriage later.. after the X'er has gotten a job. Catch? No jobs--.
Academics present theories about what has already happened.. yes-there is a Present out there thats not to be found on TV, or in Dr. Snorkels lecture on Post Modernist closure.
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Posted by: wleming on Jul 25, 2007 10:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Times have changed, and its now career enhancing.time for the canny academic:...voila: academics can now present what capitalism and advertising have been doing for decades... as 'cutting edge" theorising. Mom and home and the kids are not whats being marketing to the singles crowd--witness rock music, dvd, cd, liquor and cigarette ads preaching a consumerist hedonism
that would leave Nero feeling very behind the curve. Monogamy is for the middle brow suburbanite for whom stone washed jeans is kinda "outside" ja know? The ad driven jive shifts as the demographics and age groups shift.. but the rock driven consumerist bull--morphs to marriage later.. after the X'er has gotten a job. Catch? No jobs--.
Academics present theories about what has already happened.. yes-there is a Present out there thats not to be found on TV, or in Dr. Snorkels lecture on Post Modernist closure.
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Jul 25, 2007 11:40 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because once the man moves on...and makes new kids with the new (often younger) woman-the first kids are usually forgotton about by the father.
This is why so many of our kids are in poverty today. The mom is trying to work at a job and raise the kids alone.
In Australia-in all divorces- the mom always gets the house and the government supports her as well...they think it is better for their society if the moms don't work.
If women could survive without men's money-and have time to raise the kids...I don't think we would care much what men do. The truth is...when a woman becomes a mom..the kids become her main focus....this is rarely true of fathers.
Men have handled this is the past by creating a whore vs virgin society-marry the good woman-screw the whore---maybe we need to start calling MEN whores.
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» RE: what about the children?
Posted by: Lauren
» Devil's advocate
Posted by: YogiBear
» ?????
Posted by: gellero
» Oh geez...
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Jul 25, 2007 12:25 PM
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» RE: Choice is determined by need
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: jearls on Jul 25, 2007 12:33 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The evolutionary basis of all human social organisation is in kinship relations. In ritually formalising the relation between a man and a woman (including polygamous and polyandrous relations), a much wider network of social relations are generated than for Bonobos. "Sisters", "Brothers", In-laws, etc all become defined, and norms are established for this new human thing called a society.
However, it is all based on rather arbitrary social contracts and many variations the patterns have existed throughout the world. No particular pattern of marriage relationship is genetically established: it can be very loose, "medium" or very strict. The biological based urge to "get off" with someone else is always there, and humans will always try it when they can. Human society then is based on an irreconncialable contradiction, that is I think the root of our obsession with "who is getting off with whom" and "could I do the same?"
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» RE: The social evolutionary base
Posted by: hellofriends
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Posted by: dockboy on Jul 25, 2007 12:51 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The Real Problem
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: hellofriends on Jul 25, 2007 1:45 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.narconews.com/hazenstory1.html
Alternet claims to pay writers 50% of the resale price for the writer's work. The other 50% purportedly goes to alternet for their work (judge for yourself how difficult it is to paste an article up on a website.) No other "alternative" presses pay writers this little. To make matters worse, Alternet DOES NOT actually pay most of their writers anything at all. Worse still, they often don't even let the writers know that they have lifted their stories from other publications and re-printed them here. I started looking into this after my girlfriend had several articles published here without her knowledge, consent, and certainly without receiving any compensation. I've emailed authors who have had their works published on alternet over the past few months and NONE of them were informed by alternet. nor paid. Alternet, far from being a little volunteer-run organization, has over a million dollar budget, and the director, Don Hazen, makes an estimated 80,000 a year. Now, for a website that claims to champion progressive politics, this abusive (if not criminal) labor practice seems a bit at odds with their mission statement.
Alternet is very much a for-profit operation and this manifests itself habitually in its sensationalist content, such as this article: "Is Monogamy Natural?" They, like Cosmo, are trying to lure readers in with articles that are immediately alluring because they touch upon (without responsibly exploring) issues for which pretty much everyone has a preconceived philosophy about. I find the fact that this website publishes crap on a regular basis to be symptomatic of alternet's sleaze but also in itself to be highly disappointing. They have the resources (criminal or otherwise: see articles) to serve a vital function for the progressive community, and instead they fill their pages with "republicans are so stupid" bullshit and provocative (rather than thought-provoking) articles about sex and atheism week after week. here are some more articles about this.
http://www.sfbg.com/36/23/news_ed_alternet.html
http://www.narconews.com/letters0302.html
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» RE: About Alternet
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: mick3
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: mick3
Posted by: feminist
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Posted by: Cruella on Jul 25, 2007 6:10 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Truth is "it feels natural" is a perfectly food reason to decide to have multiple partners. It's not however a very good excuse when you've been caught out having and lying about an affair.
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» RE: Well sure but
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: nzo on Jul 25, 2007 6:39 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, the figment of monogamy and the nuclear family is very profitable for those wanting to sell us cars, washing machines, tvs, houses etc - one or more per nuclear household. It's one of the most bizarre con jobs ever perpetrated on our species - this conditioned compliance to swallow whatever we're fed.
In our intentional community of 300 we had monogamous relationships, open relationships, several large commercial washing machines, a commercial kitchen, doctor's surgery, car pool, one or two TVs and, immense support.
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» RE: What to do with sperm...
Posted by: barb123
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Posted by: willymack on Jul 25, 2007 6:40 PM
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Posted by: Gravitas on Jul 25, 2007 6:40 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2) As a matter of fact, I think I AM sexier than the average bonobo! (Then again, maybe the bonobo would say beauty is in the eye of the beholder!)
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Posted by: spencerh on Jul 25, 2007 7:45 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To think, having multiple partners could be a *gasp* mutual choice. GASP!
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» It's Not "Cheating" If You're Playing a Different Sport.
Posted by: Libertine
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Posted by: smendler on Jul 25, 2007 8:14 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A story that has been fastened to the names of Dorothy Parker, William James, and Gertrude Stein has the writer fall asleep, and in a dream he or she receives a profound insight, which the writer makes sure to get down on paper before falling back to sleep. (H. Allen Smith, in How To Write Without Knowing Nothing, attributes the verses to a Mrs. Amos Pinchot.) Come the morning, the literary celebrity discovers that the deep thought that came in a dream was:
Hogamus, higamus
Men are polygamous;
Higamus, hogamus
Women, monogamous.
----------------------------
I think that sums it up, don't you?
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» and then there's the Coolidge Effect...
Posted by: smendler
» I don't think Dorothy Parker said this:
Posted by: Libertine
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Posted by: Libertine on Jul 25, 2007 10:23 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a libertine -- I am neither physically nor emotionally monogamous. I am a sexual and emotional free agent. I am promiscuous. My only rules about sex are that my partners are of legal age and that my sexual encounters are completely consensual.
After a brief marriage in the early 80s, I decided to simply accept my basic nature and to never to enter into a legal, monogamous marriage ever again.
My relationship life consists largely of "friends with benefits" and "fuckbuddy" relationships. I also have one night stands from time to time, using safe sex methods. I've been "in love" a handful of times, but never has this ever made me desire to settle down and be domesticated into a monogamous marriage or marriage-clone relationship.
I am honest with every new partner I acquire. I tell them up front how I am and live my life; that I will never agree to be sexually exclusive with them, even if I come to love them. I give them a chance to walk away if they can't accept that before they get emotionally involved with me.
Monogamy may work for some and that's great for them, but it would be like a prison sentence for me. I crave variety and too much familiarity kills a relationship for me.
Having one sex partner for the rest of my life would be like eating the same meal 3 times a day for the rest of my life. Even if it was my favorite meal, I'd soon get sick of it. But a favorite meal eaten less frequently, supplemented by many other types of food makes me appreciated the favorite meal more.
Monogamy should be only one of many ethical choices for people in conducting their relationships, not the ONLY choice. I don't believe in legal marriage at all, personally. I don't think it's the government's place to legislate, define, mandate, or promote any particular form of intimate relationship between consenting adults. I think private relationships should remain just that --private. Some might say that marriage is needed to protect children, but this doesn't wash with me. Laws designed to protect children should focus on how the child relates to each parent, not how the parents relate to each other.
I've written extensively about this topic and how I live my life on my blog, so I won't reproduce it in novel form here....
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» Were we sseparated at birth????
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Were we sseparated at birth????
Posted by: Libertine
» Your Blog Please...
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Your Blog Please...
Posted by: Libertine
» RE: Your Blog Please...
Posted by: Libertine
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Posted by: Libertine on Jul 25, 2007 10:26 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's a simpler, quicker solution to their problem -- China could legally allow and encourage polyandrous marriage; one wife, several husbands, so that the surplus men have a chance at marriage and families. If the wife in a polyandrous marriage was allowed one child per husband, this would go a long way to help normalize the sex ratio.
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» I'd love 3 or 4 husbands ....but no kids.
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» I hear you..... ;)
Posted by: Libertine
» RE: Monogamy is Maladaptive in China Today
Posted by: MartianBachelor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jaby on Jul 26, 2007 2:32 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a self-confessed science person, but that doesn't mean we can explain everything with an equation or DNA...isn't what we are talking about here civilization? Aren't we supposed to be rising above our baser instincts and reaching out to and taking care of each other and not using/abusing each other (even though that might be the 'natural state'? Aren't we supposed to be learning, creating, building, protecting? Isn't all this nonsense about whether monogamy is or isn't a natural state sort of beside the point?
See, where I come from, one of the things you pick a mate based on is whether or not you have similar values. If you value monogamy, then you need to be with another who values monogamy, if you see sex and love as two different things, then you need to find others who share that view. If you don't care what your mate thinks and will act without regard to his/her feelings, then you are an ass. The point is not evangelizing, the point is to find a situation that will make you happy.
Get over it and quit proselytizing. Who the hell is running this website that believes they have the right to tell me what will and won't make me happy? NEWS FLASH!!!! What makes you happy will not make me happy and vice versa! Vive la differance!
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Posted by: barb123 on Jul 27, 2007 11:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am not saying this is easy, to end our "addiction" to sex as advertising/Hollywood/and mainstream would tell us, and open to a new way of being. But it is part of our work here. We all need to heal. Sex is a powerful tool for that. But we need to bring consciouness to it instead of just more of the same old, same old.
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» RE: Indeed, this post was meant to go above....
Posted by: barb123
» RE: Indeed, this post was meant to go above....
Posted by: vand
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jul 25, 2007 3:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: 4
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: 4
Posted by: Balanchine
» RE: 4
Posted by: mr. joshua
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Posted by: Pau on Jul 25, 2007 3:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But I believe that the main problem is not monogamy, nor love. Love exists, it has little to do with sex.
The problem is jealousy and the sense of property... or is it the fear of abandonment?. When we desire something, we do not appreciate someone else taking it awat from us, but there is a lot of confusion in the culture of modern man (and I mean modern man in a very wide sense, the product of the development of agriculture, property of the land, inheritance and heirs, confusion between territorial imperative and personal property.
On top of a reptilian brain, mainlly reproductive brain, develops a brain that cares for the offsprings. A further development allows us to plan for the future, be aware of our consciousness. And confusion begins, not yet solved by evolution. We either solve it or will be a doomed species.
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» RE: Is Monogamy natural?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Is Monogamy natural?
Posted by: freethink7
» RE: Is Monogamy natural?
Posted by: Blade
» RE: And the Saducees ...
Posted by: bob t
» RE: And the Saducees ...
Posted by: ArtemInox
» Religion is a scam enabled by insanity
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» RE: Is Monogamy natural?
Posted by: treehugr
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Posted by: Abushite on Jul 25, 2007 3:54 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is it that Alternet's space is invaded repeatedly by women
who are obsessed by sex? Give us a break let's talk about the idiot GWB.
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» RE: Women are not obsessed...
Posted by: bob t
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Posted by: ryazbeck on Jul 25, 2007 3:55 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: it's about damn time
Posted by: drad
» RE: it's about damn time
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: halg on Jul 25, 2007 4:14 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I lust and have lusted for more than one mate most of my life. On one hand, I want intellectual compatibility. At other times, I want sexual release (read: "I am horny"). And serial monogamy is not half as fun as some would have me believe.
I have never married, and have rarely been in a steady relationship. I have fallen in love many times, and have somehow survived the emotional ruin subsequent to those brief runs. I have heart problems, and stewing in heartbreak does nothing to make me feel any stronger.
Yeah, it's lonely down here in scumbrainworld sometimes. But the occassional shot of sleaze-induced sexual adrenalyn feels great. I'm selective and careful at all times, and I always try to be honest and kind to everyone I meet. I do not pose as a "really" if I am only looking for a "player." And I NEVER cheat if those are the rules in a relationship. I am ethical.
I guess what I am saying is, I kind of like my life this way after all; I only thought it was really rotten. (The only shortcoming is that I may have missed out on raising children.) But I see nothing "wrong" or invalid about the way I live my life.
I'm sure the holier-than-thou crowd out there will condemn me for being a devil-worshipper or something, when all I am in reality is a nonconformist. Hopefully, Alternet draws a more intellectual crowd.
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» RE: It's not just men that are really, really horny
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» RE: It's not just men that are really, really horny
Posted by: Lauren
» ?
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» RE: ?
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» RE: ?
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» Book recommendation
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» Women's sexuality
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» RE: Women's sexuality
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» male researchers
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» RE: Missing the point
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Missing the point
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» RE: Exactly
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» RE: It's not just men that are really, really horny
Posted by: dp1228
» Men are also really, really ugly...
Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Men are also really, really ugly...
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» Get a spine, Halg
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» RE: Get a spine, Halg
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» One sucker punch deserves another Blue Heron
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» Whitecliff the 'quote' man
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» RE: Whitecliff the 'quote' man
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» RE: Whitecliff the 'quote' man
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» RE: Whitecliff the 'quote' man
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» RE: Or is it just that Men are really, really Horny?
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» RE: Or is it just that Men are really, really Horny?
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» RE: Or is it just that Men are really, really Horny?
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» RE: Or is it just that Men are really, really Horny?
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» RE: Or is it just that Men are really, really Horny?
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» RE: Or is it just that Men are really, really Horny?
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» RE: Or is it just that Men are really, really Horny?
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» RE: Or is it just that Men are really, really Horny?
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» RE: Or is it just that Men are really, really Horny?
Posted by: Pau
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Posted by: Suzon on Jul 25, 2007 4:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is hardly anything more obvious in the world than conflicting desires and attachments. If we were totally indiscriminating or totally faithful and commited, there would be no need for love songs or romantic comedies.
I have suggested elsewhere that it might be better if marriages had expiration dates, say after 20 years or when the youngest child is 18. Then you could choose to invest in the marriage so that it could continue on a voluntary basis and/or invest in the children by giving them a secure upbringing.
If you made a poor choice (or were just complacent) you could walk away without putting yourself and others through a lot of emotional turmoil.
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» Save your good ideas for elsewhere
Posted by: LMNOP
» To Ssegallmd
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» RE: To Ssegallmd
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» RE: this article reminds me a bit of the research that showed that chocolate :Lauren
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: Neilium on Jul 25, 2007 4:38 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are ' no monogamous primates' it just won't work out in the forest, the female can get her own food of course as can the male and baby will also as soon as it can grab hold of some fruit. Many indigenous cultures practise polygamy and have no problems that encourage them to be any different, but then again that is not the natural way of primates. A female dominated culture is a primate one with one dominant male and the rest are bachelors in waiting on the outskirts of the core group. Don't be chumps, learn about chimps
Monogamy is unnatural in the human primate.
I know.. I've tried, "joke"
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Posted by: drinkycro on Jul 25, 2007 5:08 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've heard statements like this from other women. For the most part they tended to be educated, liberal, single, childless and miserable. I attribute it to sour grapes; it's quite simple really.
When people are angry and jealous they tend to diminish and attack the object of their jealousy. I would guess these ladies are deeply sad, that they themselves don't have these "Hallmark" relationships. So, they dump all over the institution itself, to feel slightly less awful. But, given the chance, I think most of them would jump at the opportunity for all that "old fashioned romance/marriage stuff".
I've seen it happen before (many times): the liberal, cynical, big-city girl sits in the coffee shop, bitterly griping about patriarchy, biological destiny, the liberating joys of polyamory, etc. One day she meets that "special someone" and all that's out the window. Pretty soon, she has a spring in her step, dresses better, is CHEERFUL and no longer disses marriage...a total 180 degree turn.
Look, everything we do is driven by our biology, which is designed by evolution. Any action or sentiment, is "like pissing"...no matter how noble. However, how we see ourselves and our actions is important to our psychological well-being. I think we ought to see ourselves in a positive light. There's a reason most successful human cultures traditionally supported pair-bonding and have large bodies of work extolling the nicer points of romantic pairing: feel better, act better, build stable, decent families and society flourishes; feel miserable and cynical, don't build stable families, and society decays...and is replaced by other, stronger society.
Anyhow, the short of it all: stop being so bitter, find someone to love, love them well, be loyal, expect loyalty, give everything if you want the same in return, and don't be afraid of babies...they're pretty cool when they are your own :)
Good luck and be happy
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» so, by your logic...
Posted by: alphakat
» RE: so, by your logic...
Posted by: drinkycro
» Yup,
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» "my dear"
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» RE: "my dear"
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» So true...
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» RE: bitter young maids
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: bitter young maids
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» RE: bitter young maids
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» RE: bitter young maids
Posted by: Whitecliff
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Posted by: terradea on Jul 25, 2007 5:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Love, that's spiritual. Love is a deeper connection, a feeling that someone else is more important than yourself. There is no jealousy in love, only compassion, connection, understanding and a need to see the other happy and fulfilled.
When I see my lover enjoy himself sexually, it doesn't matter if it's with me or with someone else. I love him and want to see him experience pleasure. And he feels the same way with regard to me.
People who break up over sexual infidelity (how silly is that phrase?) are really breaking up because society and religion tells them they should be hurt. If people followed their instincts, there would be no monogamy, and sex would be considered a natural and valuable gift from nature or from their creator.
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» RE: Sex has nothing to do with love
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» RE: Sex has nothing to do with love
Posted by: bouyant
» It's called "Sex Positive"
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» RE: Sex has nothing to do with love
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» At Last........
Posted by: gellero
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Jul 25, 2007 5:28 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is it not obvious that Love is not an evolutionary mechanism, a cog in a symbolic order, be it that of naive romantic-love or evolutionary (socio-)biology? Love does not necessarily get your genes closer to or further from reproduction. Is Love not the ethical form we take when we have come to grips with not only the real-death of our biological organism, but the conscious, experiential being of language? In that sense, there is no room for talk of Love as an evolutionary agent.
The pact people make with each other in the name of Love is a facade like the evolutionary psychologist says. This does not mean that we are talking about Love though, which is not about good feelings nor bad feelings, rewards or punishments, sex or children, but giving something you don't have to someone who doesn't want it.
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» RE: Love is not Evolutionary
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» RE: Love is not Evolutionary
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» RE: Love is not Evolutionary
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: otto on Jul 25, 2007 6:17 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: otto
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» re: caring and selflessness
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» Predation vs bonding
Posted by: vand
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Jul 25, 2007 6:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The first time---for sex
The second time---for children
The third time---for companionship
As a gay person and commited bachelor, I think marriage--at least in the idealized American perception of it---has been sold to young people in a totally fu*ked-up state by right-wing christianity, Hollywood media, and churches. I have talked to more young people, and especially the girls have a completely unrealistic fairy-tale view of marriage.
Having seen some brutal divorces among others in my family, I'm glad I stayed single.
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» RE: Margaret Mead
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» RE: Margaret Mead
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Posted by: messedup on Jul 25, 2007 6:28 AM
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Posted by: Pau on Jul 25, 2007 7:30 AM
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If you do not believe in evolution, nothing can be the result of evolution. If you believe in evolution, wasn't there a particular stage in the evolutionary process when the brain developped the capacity for love?.
TO me the answer is a clear yes. And that capacity allowed the species whose offsprings needed help in order to survive, to survive themselves as species.
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» RE: Love is not evolutionary..?
Posted by: Lauren
» Lizard love
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» RE: Love is not evolutionary..?
Posted by: Pau
» Learn a little something more about Evolution
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» RE: Learn a little something more about Evolution
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» The Simple Difference
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Posted by: bw on Jul 25, 2007 7:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We come from a long history of promiscuous primates, and monogamy is a truce between our urge to be promiscuous and our obsessive preference for only one. We are better at demanding monogamy from our partner than we are at displaying it ourselves, but most of the time it works fairly well.
Once the obsessiveness starts to wear down, the promiscuity rises in importance by default, and we revert to behavior that is more deeply engrained than the monogamy is. With care, respect and true love, the relationship can be nurtured for a lifetime. But with inattention, or where there was nothing but obsession in the first place, the relationship will wither in perhaps 3 to 5 years.
We marry for a predictable time not because evolution selected that span for the good of children, not because evolution demands we move on if there are no children. We marry for predictable times because it takes a predictable time for obsessiveness to wear down.
Read The Passionate Ape.
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» RE: Monogamy is a truce between competing hungers
Posted by: dover23
» RE: Monogamy is a truce between competing hungers
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» RE: Monogamy is a truce between competing hungers
Posted by: vand
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Posted by: hellofriends on Jul 25, 2007 7:48 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Thank you for this article
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» RE: Thank you for this article
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» RE: Thank you for this article
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» RE: Thank you for this article
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» RE: Thank you for this article
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Posted by: ArtemInox on Jul 25, 2007 8:27 AM
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» RE: One of the A SUBTLE TRAP
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jul 25, 2007 8:49 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Quite natural, then.
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» RE: Monogamy is a choice...
Posted by: alfalfa friend
» You're quite right, but...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Monogamy is a choice...
Posted by: freethink7
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Posted by: solrev on Jul 25, 2007 8:51 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The nature nurture debate has been around for a long time and the more we learn the more nurture becomes dominant. Discoveries such as genes effecting more than one property, and identical twin studies that show chromosomes change over time depending on which genes are turned on, really complicate the issue. The science is in its infancy. It is impossible to demonstrate any instinctual behavior in human beings. Instinctual behaviors are by design something that can not be overcome. Any instinctual behavior you attribute to human beings can easily be dismissed. One can find groups historically and presently who cognitively do not perform that behavior in their social group. “Fool yourself all you want about free will”, the author is wrong again. Now for the good part sex, sex is physically pleasurable to the human body. Ones sexual behavior or expression is a learned behavior. The problem arises from so many different teachers, thus the confusion. Since I am a Christian I know most of the sexual taboos being taught, or taboos of any kind, are not about the behavior itself but they are about the consequences. For instance in my area in the last year two Iraqi vets came home and killed the dudes screwing their wives while they were in Iraq. My advice to anyone is in your pursuit of happiness do what ever you want, just be aware that actions have reactions and beware of the consequences.
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» RE: sex is a mind game
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: Pirate1 on Jul 25, 2007 9:39 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here because of our inherited "morality" we are expected to refrain from sex with anyone but the person we marry and risk losing everthing if we get caught following our natural ways. As a former teacher I can tell you the pressure's gotten so bad and the understanding of our nature so weak that young teens must endure being held to those same standards if they kiss more than one person or go on dates with more than one person. Girls in tears after being called a slut for being friendly with more than just one guy? Guys being called pimp or horn dog because they are interested in several young females. Come on, how does this serve mate selection? They're supposed to spend the rest of their lives with that first crush just because he/she was the first to get a kiss? What EVER are you parents TELLING these kids? Youth is the biggest time we ever get for sampling what is out there and getting a sense of what we ourselves might actually want in the physical aspect of a relationship and putting these pressures on youth already stressed to the max to "perform" scholastically has a lot to do, I think, with the absurdly high divorce rate in this country. Almost twice that of Europe. After school ends and they begin to develop some perspective they see the sham of everything they did because that's what everyone else expected of them and begin to be themselves by leaving a lot of it behind... including marriages to people they were with because they'd be a slut or a pimp if they did anything else.
We forget that we are primates and that all these restrictions in all aspects of our lives, especially around sex make us ill.
Nature is natural. Tune into it and follow it and you'll live long and happier lives.
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» RE: Lest we forget...affairs for MEN
Posted by: bouyant
» highly debatable..
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» RE: Lest we forget...
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Posted by: adh on Jul 25, 2007 9:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I actually think jealousy and anger over infidelity are natural competitive primate emotions, from an evolutionary standpoint its quite understandable to be pissed off if your female partner gets knocked up with someone else's kid that you now have to raise, or if your male partner falls for a younger more "genetically fit" female and leaves you high and dry.
What religion and social conditioning do is amplify and focus those instinctive emotions in order to achieve social control: it is common to see people behave in a completely insane manner with relation to the possibility of their partner being sexual with someone else. A lot of people seem to believe that 'cheating' is one of the worst things you can do to a person, and should rightly be punished with absolute loathing and abuse. I can't see how that could be right, how guilt and self-denial could possibly be considered healthier than openness and honesty, and I think our tendencies towards jealousy are just another example of how absolute loyalty to instinct leads to selfish and irrational behavior. Everyone thinks its acceptable to restrain and control our feelings of aggression and hatred, why do we not expand the field to jealousy and possessiveness, emotions that seem out of place in a liberal society where relationships are (supposedly) entered into voluntarily?
Anyway what I'm getting at in this long winding rant is that there will always be problems whether in monogamy or without so long as people continue to behave like robots blindly following social conditioning and not developing genuine understanding of their own emotions. The fact that our society has ONE model of the ideal relationship with stereotyped behaviors associated with it that millions of people just so happen follow to the letter should set off alarms in peoples heads that things are not right. People need to trust themselves and eachother enough to create their own relationships and negotiate their own parameters if they ever want to be genuinely free to show genuine emotion, rather than live out scripts that have been pre-written for them by a bunch of hacks.
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» RE: I think people should always remember: adh
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: I think people should always remember: adh
Posted by: freethink7
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Posted by: freethink7 on Jul 25, 2007 9:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-We stay married because we want to, not because it’s based on whether or not pop-psychology mandates it’s acceptable
-We stay married in spite of the notion that marriage, and one person monogamy/love is outdated + supposedly obsolete
-We aren’t concerned that [theoretically] humans are products of evolutionary-biological forces, therefore, ultimately we must be non-monogamous creatures
-We neither care if monogamy is natural, unnatural, or popular, or unpopular: we choose to stay monogamous because this is our choice
-We believe in the (radical?) notion of love and that lifetime monogamous love is possible
-We continue to stay married in spite of the fact that statistics say 50% of marriages fail/50% survive
-We don’t feel the need to explain why we’ve been married for so many years, even though some of our family-friends who were married at the same time we married have divorced
-We continue to work through our problems (and marriage has its fair share of problems) instead of running from them (divorce is so easy!) But after 20+ years of marriage we have reached a point where our problems are minimal
-We’re both liberal and believe in the institution of marriage and monogamy
-We neither want nor feel the need to fit into any of the stereotypes/labels presented in this article
Since we don’t fit any of the preconceived carefully constructed albeit narrow parameters and stereotypes presented in this article, statistically speaking, we must be anomalies…..but we don’t care. Lifetime love and commitment is ultimately more important to us than fitting into some pop-psychology-pop-culture schematic blueprint dictating who we should be or should not be. Who cares anyway…..if you are happy being single, dating, non-monogamous, fine. If, on the other hand you want to be in love and married for a lifetime (with the same person!) that’s fine also.
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» But you MADE a genuine choice
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» But you MADE a genuine choice
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» RE: Some of Us Have Been Married.....BUT What IF one cheated?
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» RE: Some of Us Have Been Married.....BUT What IF one cheated?
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» RE: All of us PUT UP with a way of being...
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» Please....
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» Please....Dear mmeetoilenoir
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» Please....Dear mmeetoilenoir
Posted by: freethink7
» Pirate1: Sigh….Well, Where do I Start Addressing Your Comment, or Should I? I Choose to Because…….
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Posted by: BillDouglas on Jul 25, 2007 9:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is that?
In ancient Indian Vedic, and ancient Chinese energy medicine, both recognized that powerful energy generators in the pelvic area of the body, are the source of "creative" energy. Yes, pro-creative energy in the sense of sex and child creation.
But, they are also the same energy generators for other types of creative energy which becomes art, music, new ideas on how to approach challenges in our lives and in society.
In modern society, especially in America, media makes a big deal about being an "individualist," etc. But, how do they say you do that? By buying the new cool car or electronic gadget that millions of others are buying. It's insultingly ludicrous once we pull our heads far enough out of the matrix to see it for what it is.
Our education system is increasingly not an exercise in mind expansion, but rather a factory process to create widgets who can pull levers and punch buttons, but not think creatively. Truly creative citizens are unruly and hard to control.
So in humanity's, and America's frustration with our repressed creative urges, they get turned toward unbridled lust. Why? One, because sex is natural to us, but also because the corporate media uses sex relentlessly to sell us "anything."
The next level of humanity will require tremendous creativity to address the burgeoning population's needs. We all feel the need for new fresh ideas, but our system isn't built to foster or in many cases even allow it. Four times more children are on psychotropic drugs today, as were a decade ago, so that they can be made to "fit in."
If Einstein or Edison were in school today, they'd have them on ritalyn. Airline stewardesses are now, according to recent reports, encouraging parents to drug their babies, so they'll fit in better on the plane's ambiance.
Creativity is what our souls are hungering for. Find it. Write poetry, music, paint, etc. etc. etc. Innovate in the face of a society that wants you to just "fit in." It'll be the best thing you can do for your relationship, and for your world.
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» RE: The Energy/Spiritual Nature of Lust: Bill Douglas
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» RE: The Energy/Spiritual Nature of Lust: Bill Douglas
Posted by: hellofriends
» re: Spiritual Sex - and TANTRA-plus Men keep sperm in and Female ejaculation too!
Posted by: barb123
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Posted by: axjxhx on Jul 25, 2007 9:51 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this kind of discussion ALWAYS seems to leave out just how many THOUSANDS of years we have been modernized beyond that of PRIMATE (if one is to believe that we evolved that way)....as if we were all picking fleas out of each others' hair just about a month ago.
this kind of incessant reminder of "where we came from" does NOT help humans to respect each other more. IT ONLY GIVES INFIDELITY ROOM TO GROW.....because, as you see, it's a part of our inherent nature....see??? this way, cheating is seen as a "human" quality......THUS, JUSTIFYING WHEN OUR MALE LEADERS LEAD US INTO POLITICAL INFIDELITY: cheating everyone out of QUALITY OF LIFE.
it's just absolutely amazing to me that more people out there can not seem to make this connection. the more we give up on the idea of companionship the more we give up on the idea of quality of life. just what was it that stopped that guy in the desert from cheating on his wife??......the idea that his quality of life will be hindered by his irresponsible actions. he gave all options a thought, and was able to deter his "primal urge" because i KNOW he understands that he is FAR from being a monkey. now, THAT is a MODERN MAN!
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» RE: justification for irresponsibility
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» RE: justification for irresponsibility
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» RE: justification for irresponsibility
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» RE: justification for irresponsibility
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» RE: justification for irresponsibility: axjxhx
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» RE: justification for irresponsibility: axjxhx
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» RE: justification for irresponsibility
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» RE: justification for irresponsibility
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» RE: justification for irresponsibility
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» French politicians are notorious for "infidelity"...
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Posted by: montal on Jul 25, 2007 10:04 AM
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Posted by: ZPaul on Jul 25, 2007 10:08 AM
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Posted by: feminist on Jul 25, 2007 10:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am way overwhelmed by all the girls behaving badly, “raunch culture”, bridezilla programs that cater to this marriage culture. Conservative politics, i.e. GWB (from the one book he has ever read), determined that if women would just get married there would be no more poverty. Plueese…what planet is he on?? Where does this stuff come from?? Not to throw stones but could the strong encouragement for marriage and its so called concrete traditional heritage come from hundreds of years of organized, religious, corporate, male dominated societies we live in? Yes, I too have succumbed to the institution and have also paid its price, but somehow have realized that self worth, that societal validation and “love” (whatever that is) comes from within not from marriage.
Give me Katherine Hepburn who is quoted as saying “why give up the admiration of many men for the criticism of one”
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» RE: socialized to control the masses
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: socialized to control the masses
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: socialized to control the masses
Posted by: hellofriends
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Posted by: wleming on Jul 25, 2007 10:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Times have changed, and its now career enhancing.time for the canny academic:...voila: academics can now present what capitalism and advertising have been doing for decades... as 'cutting edge" theorising. Mom and home and the kids are not whats being marketing to the singles crowd--witness rock music, dvd, cd, liquor and cigarette ads preaching a consumerist hedonism
that would leave Nero feeling very behind the curve. Monogamy is for the middle brow suburbanite for whom stone washed jeans is kinda "outside" ja know? The ad driven jive shifts as the demographics and age groups shift.. but the rock driven consumerist bull--morphs to marriage later.. after the X'er has gotten a job. Catch? No jobs--.
Academics present theories about what has already happened.. yes-there is a Present out there thats not to be found on TV, or in Dr. Snorkels lecture on Post Modernist closure.
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Posted by: wleming on Jul 25, 2007 10:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Times have changed, and its now career enhancing.time for the canny academic:...voila: academics can now present what capitalism and advertising have been doing for decades... as 'cutting edge" theorising. Mom and home and the kids are not whats being marketing to the singles crowd--witness rock music, dvd, cd, liquor and cigarette ads preaching a consumerist hedonism
that would leave Nero feeling very behind the curve. Monogamy is for the middle brow suburbanite for whom stone washed jeans is kinda "outside" ja know? The ad driven jive shifts as the demographics and age groups shift.. but the rock driven consumerist bull--morphs to marriage later.. after the X'er has gotten a job. Catch? No jobs--.
Academics present theories about what has already happened.. yes-there is a Present out there thats not to be found on TV, or in Dr. Snorkels lecture on Post Modernist closure.
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Jul 25, 2007 11:40 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because once the man moves on...and makes new kids with the new (often younger) woman-the first kids are usually forgotton about by the father.
This is why so many of our kids are in poverty today. The mom is trying to work at a job and raise the kids alone.
In Australia-in all divorces- the mom always gets the house and the government supports her as well...they think it is better for their society if the moms don't work.
If women could survive without men's money-and have time to raise the kids...I don't think we would care much what men do. The truth is...when a woman becomes a mom..the kids become her main focus....this is rarely true of fathers.
Men have handled this is the past by creating a whore vs virgin society-marry the good woman-screw the whore---maybe we need to start calling MEN whores.
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» RE: what about the children?
Posted by: Lauren
» Devil's advocate
Posted by: YogiBear
» ?????
Posted by: gellero
» Oh geez...
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Jul 25, 2007 12:25 PM
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» RE: Choice is determined by need
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: jearls on Jul 25, 2007 12:33 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The evolutionary basis of all human social organisation is in kinship relations. In ritually formalising the relation between a man and a woman (including polygamous and polyandrous relations), a much wider network of social relations are generated than for Bonobos. "Sisters", "Brothers", In-laws, etc all become defined, and norms are established for this new human thing called a society.
However, it is all based on rather arbitrary social contracts and many variations the patterns have existed throughout the world. No particular pattern of marriage relationship is genetically established: it can be very loose, "medium" or very strict. The biological based urge to "get off" with someone else is always there, and humans will always try it when they can. Human society then is based on an irreconncialable contradiction, that is I think the root of our obsession with "who is getting off with whom" and "could I do the same?"
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» RE: The social evolutionary base
Posted by: hellofriends
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Posted by: dockboy on Jul 25, 2007 12:51 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The Real Problem
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: hellofriends on Jul 25, 2007 1:45 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.narconews.com/hazenstory1.html
Alternet claims to pay writers 50% of the resale price for the writer's work. The other 50% purportedly goes to alternet for their work (judge for yourself how difficult it is to paste an article up on a website.) No other "alternative" presses pay writers this little. To make matters worse, Alternet DOES NOT actually pay most of their writers anything at all. Worse still, they often don't even let the writers know that they have lifted their stories from other publications and re-printed them here. I started looking into this after my girlfriend had several articles published here without her knowledge, consent, and certainly without receiving any compensation. I've emailed authors who have had their works published on alternet over the past few months and NONE of them were informed by alternet. nor paid. Alternet, far from being a little volunteer-run organization, has over a million dollar budget, and the director, Don Hazen, makes an estimated 80,000 a year. Now, for a website that claims to champion progressive politics, this abusive (if not criminal) labor practice seems a bit at odds with their mission statement.
Alternet is very much a for-profit operation and this manifests itself habitually in its sensationalist content, such as this article: "Is Monogamy Natural?" They, like Cosmo, are trying to lure readers in with articles that are immediately alluring because they touch upon (without responsibly exploring) issues for which pretty much everyone has a preconceived philosophy about. I find the fact that this website publishes crap on a regular basis to be symptomatic of alternet's sleaze but also in itself to be highly disappointing. They have the resources (criminal or otherwise: see articles) to serve a vital function for the progressive community, and instead they fill their pages with "republicans are so stupid" bullshit and provocative (rather than thought-provoking) articles about sex and atheism week after week. here are some more articles about this.
http://www.sfbg.com/36/23/news_ed_alternet.html
http://www.narconews.com/letters0302.html
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» RE: About Alternet
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: mick3
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: mick3
Posted by: feminist
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Posted by: Cruella on Jul 25, 2007 6:10 PM
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Truth is "it feels natural" is a perfectly food reason to decide to have multiple partners. It's not however a very good excuse when you've been caught out having and lying about an affair.
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» RE: Well sure but
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: nzo on Jul 25, 2007 6:39 PM
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Of course, the figment of monogamy and the nuclear family is very profitable for those wanting to sell us cars, washing machines, tvs, houses etc - one or more per nuclear household. It's one of the most bizarre con jobs ever perpetrated on our species - this conditioned compliance to swallow whatever we're fed.
In our intentional community of 300 we had monogamous relationships, open relationships, several large commercial washing machines, a commercial kitchen, doctor's surgery, car pool, one or two TVs and, immense support.
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» RE: What to do with sperm...
Posted by: barb123
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Posted by: willymack on Jul 25, 2007 6:40 PM
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Posted by: Gravitas on Jul 25, 2007 6:40 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2) As a matter of fact, I think I AM sexier than the average bonobo! (Then again, maybe the bonobo would say beauty is in the eye of the beholder!)
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Posted by: spencerh on Jul 25, 2007 7:45 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To think, having multiple partners could be a *gasp* mutual choice. GASP!
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» It's Not "Cheating" If You're Playing a Different Sport.
Posted by: Libertine
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Posted by: smendler on Jul 25, 2007 8:14 PM
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A story that has been fastened to the names of Dorothy Parker, William James, and Gertrude Stein has the writer fall asleep, and in a dream he or she receives a profound insight, which the writer makes sure to get down on paper before falling back to sleep. (H. Allen Smith, in How To Write Without Knowing Nothing, attributes the verses to a Mrs. Amos Pinchot.) Come the morning, the literary celebrity discovers that the deep thought that came in a dream was:
Hogamus, higamus
Men are polygamous;
Higamus, hogamus
Women, monogamous.
----------------------------
I think that sums it up, don't you?
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» and then there's the Coolidge Effect...
Posted by: smendler
» I don't think Dorothy Parker said this:
Posted by: Libertine
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Posted by: Libertine on Jul 25, 2007 10:23 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a libertine -- I am neither physically nor emotionally monogamous. I am a sexual and emotional free agent. I am promiscuous. My only rules about sex are that my partners are of legal age and that my sexual encounters are completely consensual.
After a brief marriage in the early 80s, I decided to simply accept my basic nature and to never to enter into a legal, monogamous marriage ever again.
My relationship life consists largely of "friends with benefits" and "fuckbuddy" relationships. I also have one night stands from time to time, using safe sex methods. I've been "in love" a handful of times, but never has this ever made me desire to settle down and be domesticated into a monogamous marriage or marriage-clone relationship.
I am honest with every new partner I acquire. I tell them up front how I am and live my life; that I will never agree to be sexually exclusive with them, even if I come to love them. I give them a chance to walk away if they can't accept that before they get emotionally involved with me.
Monogamy may work for some and that's great for them, but it would be like a prison sentence for me. I crave variety and too much familiarity kills a relationship for me.
Having one sex partner for the rest of my life would be like eating the same meal 3 times a day for the rest of my life. Even if it was my favorite meal, I'd soon get sick of it. But a favorite meal eaten less frequently, supplemented by many other types of food makes me appreciated the favorite meal more.
Monogamy should be only one of many ethical choices for people in conducting their relationships, not the ONLY choice. I don't believe in legal marriage at all, personally. I don't think it's the government's place to legislate, define, mandate, or promote any particular form of intimate relationship between consenting adults. I think private relationships should remain just that --private. Some might say that marriage is needed to protect children, but this doesn't wash with me. Laws designed to protect children should focus on how the child relates to each parent, not how the parents relate to each other.
I've written extensively about this topic and how I live my life on my blog, so I won't reproduce it in novel form here....
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» Were we sseparated at birth????
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Were we sseparated at birth????
Posted by: Libertine
» Your Blog Please...
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Your Blog Please...
Posted by: Libertine
» RE: Your Blog Please...
Posted by: Libertine
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Posted by: Libertine on Jul 25, 2007 10:26 PM
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There's a simpler, quicker solution to their problem -- China could legally allow and encourage polyandrous marriage; one wife, several husbands, so that the surplus men have a chance at marriage and families. If the wife in a polyandrous marriage was allowed one child per husband, this would go a long way to help normalize the sex ratio.
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» I'd love 3 or 4 husbands ....but no kids.
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» I hear you..... ;)
Posted by: Libertine
» RE: Monogamy is Maladaptive in China Today
Posted by: MartianBachelor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jaby on Jul 26, 2007 2:32 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a self-confessed science person, but that doesn't mean we can explain everything with an equation or DNA...isn't what we are talking about here civilization? Aren't we supposed to be rising above our baser instincts and reaching out to and taking care of each other and not using/abusing each other (even though that might be the 'natural state'? Aren't we supposed to be learning, creating, building, protecting? Isn't all this nonsense about whether monogamy is or isn't a natural state sort of beside the point?
See, where I come from, one of the things you pick a mate based on is whether or not you have similar values. If you value monogamy, then you need to be with another who values monogamy, if you see sex and love as two different things, then you need to find others who share that view. If you don't care what your mate thinks and will act without regard to his/her feelings, then you are an ass. The point is not evangelizing, the point is to find a situation that will make you happy.
Get over it and quit proselytizing. Who the hell is running this website that believes they have the right to tell me what will and won't make me happy? NEWS FLASH!!!! What makes you happy will not make me happy and vice versa! Vive la differance!
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Posted by: barb123 on Jul 27, 2007 11:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am not saying this is easy, to end our "addiction" to sex as advertising/Hollywood/and mainstream would tell us, and open to a new way of being. But it is part of our work here. We all need to heal. Sex is a powerful tool for that. But we need to bring consciouness to it instead of just more of the same old, same old.
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» RE: Indeed, this post was meant to go above....
Posted by: barb123
» RE: Indeed, this post was meant to go above....
Posted by: vand
'Reality' Show Lets You Decide If Women Get Abortions?
Sex Addiction: A B.S. Excuse for Not Thinking
Why Do People Want to Have Sex with the 9-Foot Tall Natives in 'Avatar'?




