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Sex and Relationships

Don't Look Gay: Why American Men Are Afraid of Intimacy with Each Other

By John Ibson, American Sexuality Magazine. Posted July 4, 2007.


Why do adolescent boys often leave empty seats between each other when they go to the movies? It's a product of the culture of male homophobia in America which pushes men to avoid intimacy and gay stereotypes.
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This article is reprinted from American Sexuality Magazine.

On Saturday afternoon at the Cineplex you can see them: adolescent boys, there to watch one of the action films that Hollywood makes with an audience of young males in mind. What’s distinctive is where the boys sit in the theater. Though they might’ve come to the movie together and might even be close friends, they’ll leave an empty seat between them.

Just where the empty physical, as well as emotional, space between men comes from has been the essential subject of my research as a scholar of American culture. My work has culminated in a recent book, Picturing Men: A Century Male Relationships in Everyday American Photography.

What accounts for that space? A short answer, something academics like me are notoriously reticent to provide, is that countless American boys and the men that they become are afraid of intimacy with each other, fearful of how intimacy might be construed -- of what others and maybe even they themselves might decide that the closeness suggests. What I’m alluding to, of course, is homophobia.

I have examined the shifting history of intimacy among American males, charting the role that homophobia has played in the shifts that men’s intimacy has experienced over the last century and a half. What are the implications that my historical work might have for two matters prominent in contemporary public debate: first, the so-called “boy problem” in the United States, and secondly, whether persons of the same sex should be permitted to marry?

At Cal State Fullerton, I teach courses called The American Male and Sexual Orientations in American Culture. In some ways these classes occasionally overlap, as my students and I discuss the differences and the similarities between men who consider themselves gay or bisexual and those who think of themselves as straight. Though of course widely accepted today in the United States, the idea that one’s own identity is grounded in the sex of those whom one desires sexually, that the sex of the object of yearning identifies the yearner, rather than simply defining his desires, is a comparatively recent cultural notion.

But it isn’t a universal way of thinking about human sexuality. Scholars too rarely ask if what we know as “sexual orientation” is a fundamental distinction between human beings, or instead is less significant, perhaps much less significant, than gender distinctions.

My students and I often consider whether various kinds of fuss over sexual orientation actually are indirect ways of addressing more basic issues of gender, the ways that a particular society defines the appropriate behavior of males and of females. We examine the ways that negative stereotypes of gay men, for example, not only stigmatize those males considered gay, but also coerce all men to stay within the boundaries of culturally prescribed “male behavior,” lest they be thought queer. It’s common in our culture for a gay male to be thought “unmanly,” but it’s not inevitable that this equation be in force, or even that sexuality be viewed as a simple question of one or the other, gay or straight, with bisexuality in the middle ground.

Such, however, has been our society’s obsession with sexual orientation -- and with “appropriate” manliness -- that an association with gayness came to include certain occupations, words, gestures, and items of apparel, as well as one male’s willingness to express intimacy with another. The greater the scorn heaped upon gay males, the more that all males have been discouraged from displaying behavior associated with gayness -- with anything resembling intimacy heading the list of taboos.

Reflecting the powerful significance of gender in our society is the fact that lesbianism functions quite differently in the culture than does male homosexuality. Though lesbians and gay men are subjected in common to certain forms of discrimination, lesbianism is both stigmatized in some segments of “straight” society and powerfully eroticized in some “straight” quarters as well, a largely unknown occurrence with male homosexuality.

One hardly need suggest that life is easy for lesbians to observe that gay men seem to trouble straight people more, to observe that gay men are more associated with “perversion” than lesbians have been. A tomboy, revealingly enough, is often thought appealing or amusing, qualities never attributed to sissies.

This situation, rather than suggesting that lesbians (often stereotyped as the ultimate tomboys) have it easier, probably attests instead to the fact that the doings of men are simply paid more attention in our society. With male behavior mattering more, those who deviate from the strictures of manhood, then, are singularly bothersome. For those who believe in traditional gender distinctions, females whose behavior is thought to mirror that of males would be considerably less annoying, disgusting, laughable, or even noteworthy than that of “effeminate” men. Whatever the reason, a dislike of lesbianism did not bring about severe restrictions on displays of intimacy among all women in any way analogous to how homophobia prompted distancing between all American men.


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John Ibson is Professor of American Studies at California State University, Fullerton. He is the author of Will the World Break Your Heart? Dimensions and Consequences of Irish-American Assimilation (Garland, 1990) and Picturing Men: A Century of Male Relationships in Everyday American Photography (Smithsonian Books, 2002, University of Chicago Press, 2006). He is currently writing a book on manhood in 1950s America.

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Homophobia is the wrong conclusion...
Posted by: EagleMB on Jul 4, 2007 12:47 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am not so sure "homophobia" is the proper conclusion. I think the discomfort of men to be intimate is more a gender role than a result of sexual orientation. Even in heterosxual relatiosnhips, men are reluctant to show intimacy. This is especially true in public settings.

The term "homophobia" implies a fear of homosexuals, not a fear of intimacy. Growing up in the San Francisco Bay Area, I have made more than my fair share of homosexual friends. Although I have no problem with their lifestyle, or even that they are intimate with other men while in my company, I am not very comfortable with them being intimate towards me (even though I know they mean nothing by it). Thus, it is not a fear of homosexuals or homophobia.

I do, however, believe that sexual orientation plays a role in male on male intimacy. Just as a man will act "macho" in front of a woman (even though the woman may want the man to be more sensitive), the same is true for male interaction with other men. It is true that gay men are seen as less masculine as straight men. If a straight man shows signs of intimacy in moern society, he may be perceived as gay, and therefore, less masculine. Thus, it is a gender role issue, not a homophobia issue.

Though lesbians and gay men are subjected in common to certain forms of discrimination, lesbianism is both stigmatized in some segments of “straight” society and powerfully eroticized in some “straight” quarters as well, a largely unknown occurrence with male homosexuality.

This is only true on a very surface level. When straight men have erotic lesbian fantasies, their fantasaies are very heterosexual in nature. The fantasies that straight men have about lesbian encounters is almost always premised on two heterosexual females having a lesbian encounter. In other words, the fantasy is only exciting if they believe that the women are acting for the sole purpose of pleasing the man.

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» i agree Posted by: schokoprinz
Mike Males
Posted by: mmales on Jul 4, 2007 1:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article, like companion ones problematizing girls, is more about ephebiphobia (fear of youth): adults constantly project their own miseries and fears on youth. Boys describe their lives--when you examine larger measures instead of relying on dismal authors like Pollack, Kindlon, et al--not as empty and joyless, but with much more happiness, confidence, optimism, intimacy, and successes than the hand-wringers can admit, and solid measures back them up. Boys today have the lowest rates of serious crime, violence, suicide, dropout, addiction, and other failures of any male generation we can assess--it is middle-aged men who are succumbing to record self-destruction, addiction, rising crime, instability, plastic surgery, and related failures they refuse to admit. The adolescent boys I worked with for 20 years were generally affectionate and connected; it was grownups who disparaged them and imposed fearful rules. The relentless, endless girl-fearing and boy-fearing that dominate discussion in both the corporate and alternative media is not only reactionary, it is destructive, the pathological expression of an older generation that should be attending to their own rising troubles.

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Yes, sexual orientation is implicated
Posted by: frosty86 on Jul 4, 2007 3:21 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As Suzanne Pharr, Marilyn Frye, and other feminists have argued (quite convincingly), homophobia or heterosexism serve the purpose of policing men's and women's behaviors to serve male dominance. Men avoid intimacy with each other because they don't want to appear gay, which would mean feminine. In our culture, femininity is devalued and seen as weak and inferior...so men don't want to be associated with it and they will act violent and discriminatory towards those who do. Is it any surprise that men exhibit such violent homophobia toward each other? Gender and sexual orientation are inextricably linked and are both implicated in this male supremacist behavior. To say that men's avoidance of intimacy with each other has to do with gender rather than homophobia (as many are wont to say) thus misses the point.

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» her point is... Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Response to frosty.....(1) Posted by: mjabele
» Response to frosty.....(2) Posted by: mjabele
4
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jul 4, 2007 3:45 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the core problem isn't conforming to male or female steretoypes per se, but rather, the pressure to conform in general. As the saying goes, we are a nation of sheep. So the "pressure" comes down to your own insecurities and weakness of character.

If Europeans seem effeminate or eccentric to us, it may be because they are less insecure and/or under the gun of a fascist regime (God bless America). Or maybe they're just really weird over there...especially the French, dammit!

And if we think Oriental countries seem overcrowded with overconforming, docile people who act and dress the same, maybe that's how we look to Europeans.

This is a great topic, and hopefully a good discussion.

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Just give these boys 20 years.
Posted by: gistre on Jul 4, 2007 4:43 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When they realize how depressingly shallow and self-absorbed females are, they'll be clamoring for male companionship.

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» Simple explanation... Posted by: MatthewSavage
Equality
Posted by: suprmark on Jul 4, 2007 5:12 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry, a little off topic, but I am happy to see not only an article dealing with challenges men face but also half of the past 6 articles written by men. Kind of makes you appreciate the annoyance women have with the dominance of male voices in the media.

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Homophobia -- a Caribbean view
Posted by: minbills on Jul 4, 2007 7:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the Eastern Caribbean the Christian Council unofficially hates, abhors and is terrified of homosexuality. Chapter and Verse is cited to uphold their views. On some islands they still deny Aids (a huge growing problem in the Caribbean) just as they deny that one island had a male whore house next to the police station where the disease may have been introduced by the policemen who, for a price, serviced the clients and took their 'winning' home to their wives.

On one island, a reputedly gay man won political office and is apparently, doing a fine job for his constituency. This caused a furor among members of the Opposition party and a prominent church minister, on a popular call-in radio talk show, proclaimed this politician and all like him should be burned at the stake. In the name of God?

In the Caribbean male homosexuality is feared and always the butt of jokes. Gays (with the exception of a few flamboyant men) live in secret. Many live deep in the closet and are married with children. They are jeered as "Auntie Man"

I have never heard lesbianism discussed although we know it exists in the community, and several of these women are doing splendid jobs of raising their children. They have found each other because the average West Indian 'father 'is more interested in adding notches to his gun rather than take responsibility for what his bullets produce.

As an American, and after all my years doing business here, I am still considered an outsider. In my 'gung ho" enthusiasm, I hugged my accountant and his wife when their son scored a winning point at a particularly tense football match. My spontaneous hug terrified the man and he has politely refused to work for me since. He is a good accountant, too.

Welcome to the West Indies.

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» One Theory... Posted by: CatDad
African American Female's Perspective
Posted by: equity on Jul 4, 2007 7:46 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I lived in West Africa for about 10 yrs. My earliest memorable moment included observing a group of African men holding hands, laughing enjoying themselves as friends. The close proximity didn't seem awkward to them at all. If you know anything about African men, many juggle multiple women, wives and or concubines. I think the author raises some interesting points. I think the media constantly bombards the public with the homosexual message. It is everywhere! I feel sorry for young men and women who are constantly feed these messages at a time when they are maturing and possibly unsure of themselves in many ways. This nation has lost its soul and conscious.
- Not a "right-winger"

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In the news, in peoples' minds
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Jul 4, 2007 8:10 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe it's because people are so ready to slap the label 'gay' on guys these days in the absence of any real proofs.

I think it's a product of homosexuality and the issues of gay men constantly being in the news. It keeps these things in the forefront of peoples' minds.

Also, once a man has a wife and kids, he becomes less vulnerable and is free to show more "affection" for other men. Unattached males (like the teenagers mentioned) are more easily suspect and so are driven apart.

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physicality
Posted by: Ruperic on Jul 4, 2007 8:13 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe it is connected but I also see that American males have a phobia about the body in general, and enjoy intimacy with other men only when a degree of violence is involved as in contact sports. Compared with Europeans, they seem to be uncomfortable with nudity -- many young guys don't take showers at the gym and American swimmers wear those baggy shorts and wouldn't be seen dead in speedos. Look at the long floppy shorts that boxers and basketball players wear and compare that with 40 years ago. Just fashions? The lack of intimacy may be uncomfortableness with the body in general.

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Odd article
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Jul 4, 2007 8:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Male intimacy in the 19th century went hand-in-hand (pun intended) with the obvious fact that men just didn't take women seriously then.

Gay male friendships in the 21st century are not necessarily more physically intimate than straight male friendships. We follow the same American patterns others here mention: if our ancestors were from Italy or Latin America, probably more demonstrative; if from northern Europe much less so, etc.

In Massachusetts, about 3 times as many lesbian couples have gotten married as gay male couples. This seems to me a standard & quite ordinary gender difference. I wonder does the author think we should see something wrong with men's socialization based on this statistic? (Yeah, I realize some feminists will say men in general are just basically defective!)

Male intimacy in a military setting is to be expected. As a (gay male) veteran I understand... but this article veers close to saying: Isn't WAR great? Look how it promotes male intimacy! ...uh, the author might want to rethink that implication.

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» RE: Odd article Posted by: H_H
» RE: Odd article Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Odd article Posted by: s_mead
Homophobia is a Stand in for Powerlessness
Posted by: boysen on Jul 4, 2007 8:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I appreciate this article - and the analysis, but I think it can go a little deeper.

I think that in addition to being afraid of gay men (as something outside of themselves, object) - many men are deeply afraid to actually look inside at their own feelings, their motivations, desires, longings, feelings, hopes. This fear gets projected outward onto convenient target groups, homosexuals, women (as shown in some comments on this string), arabs, blacks, the "other". I believe that homophobia and other targeting behaviors can only break down when a person is ready to take responsibility for all the emotional realities that are floating around inside - and key to this may be to acknowledge and express the feelings of powerlessness that are inherent in much of the subjective (and even in the objective) realities of human beings in our time.

We're told to be very afraid of all the terrible stuff happening out there - and at the same time we are told to NOT be afraid, to suck it up, act tough, kick ass, Live Free or Die Harder, hurt anything that does not stick to the game of invulnerability.

As pointed out in the article - men in war become able to share intimacy because it becomes impossible to hold onto a sense of false power in the chaos of war. I would argue that 'modern' warfare is less likely to create this intimacy because of the differences in weaponry and the deeply ingrained unhealthy notions of Manhood that pervade the military.

I also agree with the commenter who says that much of this is fear of youth. I believe that many in the younger generations have acknowledged this disconnection and worked through it in significant ways. I caution however - there are very distinct CLASS differences at work in this argument. AND it may also be that we do not SOLIDIFY our coping mechanisms until we reach our 30's and 40's. Maybe these young people just haven't been beaten down enough to 'play the game' yet.

If you're looking for a way, as a man, to work through some of this ... check out the ManKind Project. I think they're doing some great work.

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Would Lord Nelson say, "Kiss me, Hardy" today?
Posted by: sausage on Jul 4, 2007 8:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As he lay dying British Vice-Admiral and victor of the Battle of Trafalgar, Horatio Nelson said to the commander of HMS Victory, Sir Thomas Hardy:
"Take care of my dear Lady Hamilton, Hardy, take care of poor Lady Hamilton". He paused then said very faintly, "Kiss me, Hardy". This, Hardy did, on the cheek. Nelson then said, "Now I am satisfied. Thank God I have done my duty".

One cannot imagine any of the hyper-macho commanders of US troops in Iraq ever saying anything remotely similar.

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I remember something from years past...
Posted by: H_H on Jul 4, 2007 8:38 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At the ice skating rink I used to frequent, there was an announcement made over the speakers just before the scheduled ice dancing practice.

"Next period is ice dancing. Two girls may dance together. Two boys may not dance together." (Because there were more girls than boys during this period, they wanted to make sure there weren't too many girls going without partners.)

On one occasion, two boys, because they wanted to be clever wags, decided to dance together for the period. They were asked to leave.

If the author had seen this unfold, this innocent prank surely would become (yet) more proof of how society refuses to tolerate even an inkling of non-heteronormative behavior.

In fact, the idea of there even being a "natural" sexual orientation is an ideological construct meant to impose unnatural behavior upon us. But being gay, well, that's natural.

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» Did you see "Blades of Glory"? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
A Gay Perspective
Posted by: renelucy on Jul 4, 2007 9:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sme of the phenomena observed by the author just happens to coincide with society's increased repression and persecution of gay people. Also gay men (and lesbians) are hardly defined by the gender they arer sexually attracted to. There's just more to it than that. I have intimate relations with several straight men and find them capable not only of understanding and empathy, but of physical, non-sexual affection.

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» RE: A Gay Perspective Posted by: kelt65
cephalis
Posted by: cef on Jul 4, 2007 11:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Two points: This fear of male intimacy really gets troubling when fathers are unable to be physically affectionate with their sons. This defect, ironically, can often result in gratuitous cruelty.
And also, it is not lesbianism per se that turns men on, I think it is the concentrated display of female lust that arouses us. Many men, judging from the prevalence of such images on the internet, are tittillated by seeing females masterbating.

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» RE: cephalis Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: cephalis Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: cephalis Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: cephalis Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: cephalis Posted by: suprmark
Homophobia Necessary....
Posted by: CatDad on Jul 4, 2007 12:04 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...as is black-white/white-Hispanic/black-Hispanic race rivalry/resentment...in order to keep the "little folks" at the bottom using their time/energies fighting amongst themselves rather than taking on the powers that are oppressing them.

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A very good article . . .
Posted by: yesman on Jul 4, 2007 2:25 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
. . . which eloquently and succinctly summarizes our current situation and how we arrived here. Just a couple of comments:

1. From my personal experience: When I was growing up, kids didn't usually start dating until their mid-teens--age 16 or so. These days, even kids in elementary school are expected to "have a girl/boyfriend." The point being that even small children are now expected to begin to demonstrate their heterosexual tendencies, even long before puberty.

2. This is implied by what the author says (and has been noted explicitly by other writers): male intimacy is now only acceptable in situations where hypermasculine behaviors are also required--war, sports, etc. Since such men have demonstrated their masculinity beyond question, the fear of intimacy is reduced somewhat. One wonders what the effect will be of more professional athletes coming out of the closet or of the demise of anti-gay policies in the military.

3. One way of describing the history which the author relates is to say that it is the history of the decline of friendship. Intimate friendships--especially between males--have largely disappeared. This disappearance, however, is only a part of the decline of human relationships and intimacy in general. In contrast to 30 or 40 years ago, "love" hardly appears at all in popular culture these days. Relationships are portrayed as based on what can be gained from the other party--money, sexual satisfaction, social status, etc. This chamge in culture reflects a similar change in people's real lives. "Love" is thought to be corny or quaint (or a euphemism for sex). From the widest perspective, this change is just a part of the general attack upon interior life. Unpredictable emotions and uncontrolled thoughts are bad for business. So, there is an ongoing attempt to destroy interiority--to produce "people" who are completely manipulable consumers. This, of course, is all part of the triumph of the capitalist "free market"--the destruction of all values except monetary or exchange value, the commoditization of the world.

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Homophobia is a key element of mainstream US gender roles
Posted by: rminor on Jul 4, 2007 2:52 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Interesting discussion, but gender roles and the place of homophobia (defined at its core in the US as the fear of getting close to ones own sex), the desire not to be perceived as "gay," and being conditioned by the system through fear into "straight" roles for each gender are fully explained in the 2001 book, Scared Straight: Why It's So Hard to Accept Gay People and Why It's So Hard to Be Human (St. Louis: HumanityWorks, 2001).

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Arab men hold hands...
Posted by: justaguy on Jul 4, 2007 2:54 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...and the first thing I noticed on my first trip to the arab world was two soldiers walking along holding hands in the airport in Cairo.

I immediately turned to my sister and said "If that's what the army is like, I'd hate to think what the navy gets up to".

Just kidding.

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yawn
Posted by: ShoShenQ on Jul 4, 2007 3:36 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In short this article is basically telling us to act like queers so that we can feel better, and oh the whole "holding your male friends hand is not homosexual and makes you feel better" is soo funny; I mean, I dont even hold my female friend's hand so I dont see why it should be different with my boy friends ?

Maybe the author himself is a homo still hiding in the closet, but whats certain is that Alternet served us another boring and useless article, thinking of I cant even believe it that I read the whole pamphlet, the author stole me 10 minutes of my life I will never be able to get back -sigh.

Thank you pseudo-science !

PS: I have nothing against homo as long as they dont try to hold my hand or anything else !

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» Question for the yawner... Posted by: Progressive Citizen
» RE: yawn Posted by: angryyoungwoman
Really bad analyses on here
Posted by: frosty86 on Jul 4, 2007 4:00 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have to say that the analyses of this pattern among male beahvior given in these comments are really simplistic and are not compelling at all.

Saying that this is about "cultural differences" does nothing to explain WHY it exists. It just another way of saying it exists. And we already knew that.

Saying that this is about men's gender roles rather than sexual orientation ignores what sexual orientation is based on--GENDER!!! And it still doesn't explain WHY this should exist among men and not women.

Saying this is about the pressure to conform "in general" doesn't explain WHY we are conforming to THIS behavior and not another pattern...like, say, intimacy between men.


...Can we please come up with more intelligent analyses and discussions of this issue...rather than repeating the same tired explanations that don't answer questions like "why," "to whose benefit?" and "to what ends?"?

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» You asked for it, you got it Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: You asked for it, you got it Posted by: angryyoungwoman
Homophobic phobia molehills!
Posted by: HughScott on Jul 4, 2007 4:05 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why do guys sometimes put empty seats between themselves in movies?

For the same reason my 67-year-old married brother and I do when we go to flicks togather. It gives us MORE ELBOW ROOM, you idiot!

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Several Significant Mistakes
Posted by: FoJ on Jul 4, 2007 6:13 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author appears to have made several significant, erroneous assumptions.

The most insulting is the categorization of homosexuality as solely a sexual act, as in "idea that one’s own identity is grounded in the sex of those whom one desires sexually,". Homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is not just about whom one desires sexually, but also romantically, emotionally, spiritually, intimately.

As a society, we take for granted that the manifestations of intimacy Ibson lists ("elaborate terms of endearment and unselfconscious physical closeness, for example") are indications of sexual desire as well, when seen in a heterocentric relationship. Yet Ibson dismisses the majority of such intimacies between two males as non-sexual 'friendship'.

The reality is that non-sexual intimacy, unselfconscious physical closeness, terms of endearment are vital parts of same-sex, homoerotic relationships.

The more relevant comparison would have been to the distancing that was prevalent between heterosexual men and women during the Victorian age - when the fear of sexuality was so extreme that even husbands and wives treated each other as cold acquaintances more than as passionate lovers.

Ibson's assumption that the concept of homosexuality is new is in error as well. There exists a lengthy catalog of expressions of same-sex attraction, linking romantic and emotional intimacy to physical, sexual attraction, going back to Athenian Greece, including works that recognized that some people were only attracted to their own gender, some only to the opposite gender, and some to both genders. Same-sex pair bonding was documented throughout history. His mistake lies in defining sexual orienation by sexual activity, and that is a degrading assumption.

This next assumption reveals the core bias that ruins Ibsen's work: "But the everyday photos that I have studied, unless there is some explicit inscription on an image, cannot document a sexual relationship between the subjects. "

This statement would be deemed irrational, if made about photos of mixed-gender couples. There exist millions of everyday photos of mixed gender couples, and we do not assume that, unless there is an explicit inscription on the image, the two are really homosexuals with no physical, emotional and spiritual attraction to each other. To the contrary, when provided images of such casual physical intimacy between two people of the opposite gender, we presume that some significant degree of sexual, emotional and spiritual attraction exists between them. Yet Ibsen assumes that unless proven otherwise, all of the subjects in his photos are heterosexual.

It appears that Ibsen did not take into consideration the experience of any gay men. Had he, he'd have found that the very casual intimacy he deems lacking in het males today, is the norm among gay men, just as casual intimacy between people of opposite genders is the norm among heterosexuals.

Lastly, Ibsen is profoundly mistaken about the way that 'masculine' women are perceived of and treated by our society. Given how constant the barrage of verbal abuse directed at the current crop of strong, masculine, yet heterosexual women in politics is today, that oversight is disturbing. The verbal violence directed lately at Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer, and Elizabeth Edwards proves the falseness of to Ibsen's claim: "females whose behavior is thought to mirror that of males would be considerably less annoying, disgusting, laughable, or even noteworthy than that of “effeminate” men." Meanwhile, Coulter is embraced by the traditionalists for playing the stereotypical 'fishwife' role by being shrill, abusive and degrading, without demonstrating the "masculine" traits of reason, logic and use of evidence.

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get fucking real (profanity appropriate)
Posted by: dragon1947 on Jul 4, 2007 6:35 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's a matter of comfort, silly. If you leave a seat between you, then you've got no contest over who gets to use the armrest, and you can sprawl. If you're sitting next to a cuddle buddy, of course you welcome the shoulder, hand, neck . . . oh, editor, I better stop now . . . contact. You guys, I mean gays, have gotta stop saying every guy that isn't gay is homophobic.

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» RE: get fucking real (profanity appropriate) Posted by: Progressive Citizen
SURE......turn it around.... [grin]
Posted by: SIGGY on Jul 4, 2007 7:47 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't believe what I'm reading.......I sit down in the theatre with my girl, leaving a seat between me and the guy to my right.......and I'm labelled homophobic ?

I guess it was only a matter of time before being hetro was labelled abnormal.

I have always taken measures to mitigate my inherant predjudices....I'm human after all; so I'm born and and raised with some slanted views on life. But I work on it.

I grew up, having had my brother (14 at the time) raped by a man he was hired to babysit for; so that was my introduction to the gay lifestyle. I've since moderated considerably and moved to the center.

However comma, I have established my own theory and settled on the following:

I essentially have no problem with gays. keep it to yourself [like religion] and we'll get along just fine. My one issue, is that I do not understand why the gay community does not simply acknowledge that thier "condition" or "orientation" is in a word, abnormal........like I as a diabetic, have a naturally occurring abnormal condition.

A snake with two heads, is a naturally occurring phenomenom, in nature.....it is however, not a normal condifiton. I place homosexuality in that "box".

Do not mistake my motives; this has nothing to do with religion

I'm not saying that being gay is bad, nasty or otherwise a bad label; but simple acknowledge the situation, be honest about it , and I'm sure that the community at large would be much more accepting and tolerant.

By insisting that being gay is perfectly normal, and in the case of this article, indicating that being hetro by birth automatically makes one a gay basher, is hog-swallop.

regards...Siggy.

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Lol. When did progressives start passing judgment on the behavior of...
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jul 4, 2007 8:08 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...two sentient, non-violent adults.

If you don't want to be hugged, fine. If you want to be hugged, find a consenting adult. Cool it with the anti-choice rhetoric, or join the appropriate congregation.

My goodness.

Moralist

Fundy

Crusaders.

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Women need to take responsibility for the homosexual double standard
Posted by: arthurs-1 on Jul 5, 2007 6:30 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The homosexual double standard (i.e. female-female hot, male-male not) is exploited and promoted by women. Consider that when women make out with each other, it's often for the purpose of pleasing their sleazy boyfriends or husbands. Just check the swingers ads or straight porn movies - there are tons of examples of women who make out with each other for the purpose of pleasing sleazy straight guys. It's time women started to take responsiblity for this double standard.

Overall, I think this need that women have to please straight guys goes back to the way women are brought up by their parents. Women are largely taught to enhance themselves with make-up, pretty dresses, stilletoes, long and flowing hair etc etc. This all serves to set them up as eye-candy for straight guys. Men are taught to be practical and achievement-oriented.

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Women and men play their privileges off against each other
Posted by: arthurs-1 on Jul 5, 2007 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't fall for the notion that America is an equal society. Culturally, it is most unequal. This cultural inequality is reflected in the way heterosexual men and women assume gender-based privileges that have the full consent of the opposite gender.

For example, consider the male heterosexual privilege of reserving the right to stare at women and to have affairs with them. Men do this quite often. Women, in turn, exploit this by dressing provocatively and inappropriately in cleavage-revealing dresses and short skirts. The man's privilege is to stare, the woman's is to provide him with the eye-candy. Both get an ego boost from this cultural inequality. Female homosexuality of the "chic" variety serves a similar purpose.

It's also my view that liberalism has led to this cultural inequality. The model for liberalism, in my opinion, is a fully-clothed straight guy standing next to his nearly-naked bisexual female date at a porn awards night.

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Displays of male-male intimacy should not be construed as being gay-friendly
Posted by: arthurs-1 on Jul 5, 2007 7:12 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In many societies throughout the world, male-male physical intimacy is a form of heterosexual male bonding. Consider India, for instance. A gay friend of mine recently visited there and was amazed by the number of male couples he saw walking along the street either holding hands or with their arms draped across each other. And yet India is one of the most homophobic countries in the world, with strict laws forbidding homosexual relations.

Ibson's studies of male portraits suggest a bygone era where male sexuality was undivided. If you were a man, you were heterosexual, and that was that. Even if you were gay in your private feelings, you suppressed them and got married to a woman.

As male sexuality has become increasingly divided by the rise of the gay rights movement, perhaps straight guys have felt confused and somewhat "under siege", hence their physical recoiling from each other. The answer to breaking down the division without returning to the bygone repressive era is quite simple: we need a bisexual men's movement.

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Funny...
Posted by: opeluboy on Jul 6, 2007 3:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that on the first page of this article there's an ad for Real Jock -Gay Fitness Community. Wait, now it's a Hertz ad.

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Leg space and flatulence
Posted by: lessbread on Jul 6, 2007 4:28 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems to me that teen age boys like to sit a seat apart in theaters in order to give themselves more room to spread their legs as well as to avoid each other's flatulence odors.

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American guys intimate in an American way
Posted by: cinattra on Jul 7, 2007 8:44 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
American guys are intimate in an American way. We're intimate through physical play with each other. I wrestle with my teenage nephews and I'm 34 y/o. I grew up wrestling with my brothers.

The downside is that sometimes physical play can get out of hand especially among peers. In the good old days if you got into fight with your best friend when play got too rough once the fight was over you were back friends.

You're not going to see two American straight dudes arms draped over each other unless there is a beer in the other hand or they're praying. That's just culture not homophobia. You want to change that then change tv.

The seat thing is so guys can be guys. Leaning back with the most uncomfortable looking crook in your neck and back on the couch or the movie theatre seat with legs spread open. You can't do that if you're sitting right next to a guy doing the same thing.

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Spurious conclusion
Posted by: ladmeaux on Jul 9, 2007 10:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have spen a lot of time in South Asia (Nepal and India) where persons of the same sex are much more intimate in public - holding hands, linking arms, etc... - and display comparitively fewer "hang ups" about physical intimacy in public, while hetero couples are much less intimate in public. Yet homophobia is widespread - so perhaps there is not such a direct correlation between same-sex physical intimacy and homophobia. Sounds to me just like more knee-jerk criticism of American males....

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A perfect example
Posted by: mercury613 on Jul 9, 2007 1:28 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the author's point is clearly illustrated by the majority of the male respondents to this thread. Most American men get extremely uncomfortable and defensive at the mere mention of homosexuality. This is conditioning.

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It's not homophobia, because gay men promote the same idea that expressive friendship is sexual
Posted by: diodd on Jul 11, 2007 10:18 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I greatly appreciate any article that admits that sexuality and gender norms have changed over time.

However, I think it's sort of dismissive and unhelpful to assign the various distancing customs of straight men to the word "homophobia." I came out several years ago (I'm a guy) and the most surprising thing about the GLBT community from the inside is the degree to which THEY dismiss and put down same-sex intimacy that isn't associated with gay sexuality (or with marriage or exclusive partnership). It would come up with me and my boyfriends on an everyday basis: we would see some straight guys in a bowling alley being jokingly affectionate, and my boyfriends would graphically describe how they must "really" be in the closet and want to have sex with each other. They would respond the same way to any discussion of more expressive customs from other countries like Brazil. And most GLBT authors' discussion of history is equally fixated on "claiming" all same-sex love for the gay movement: authors allege that various figures "were really gay" because of affectionate behavior or flowery letters, without even discussing the fact that straight culture has changed over time and behavior like this was once part of mainstream friendship.

It is as if many people in the GLBT movement want to claim all of same-sex love as "their territory" but they are not actually interested in friendship, despite the fact that it is the most popular form of same-sex love in this country. I'm not saying they think friendship should be more expressive, I'm saying they don't care to discuss it at all, which is why when you join a coming-out support group, the common response to any discussion of a friendship with a straight guy is basically dismissive that any real emotion could exist in such a friendship if no sex is occurring. Of course, not all gay people are like this, some of the best research on changing customs around friendship is also done by LGBT authors (mostly lesbians though). But enough people are like this, and have enough power, that it slants the movement.

I think the straight guys on this comment board have a right to be miffed about being called homophobic, even though I personally prefer to be expressive in friendship myself (like the Brazillians, who cheek-kiss and hold hands). Yes, the distancing rules are arbitrary, but it doesn't mean they don't love their friends, or that they hate gay people. It just means that as long as our society defines people by "sexual orientation," guys who have ambiguous friendships will get in trouble with their girlfriends and wives who think if they aren't "straight enough" they're going to leave them, and their friends may be worried they want to have sex with them. The gay movement promotes the idea that "straight" men are not supposed to be cuddly, and cuddly men must really want to have sex with you, as much or more than anybody else. I wish it didn't, but I'm only one person.

My coming-out experience led me to realize that you can kiss and hold hands all you want and still be emotionally distant (like my ex-boyfriends), or you can just pat each other on the back, and smile, and forgive your friends when they do stupid things, and say sappy things to them in private, and that can have a lot of emotional significance.

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