COMMENTS: 98
Don't Look Gay: Why American Men Are Afraid of Intimacy with Each Other
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On Saturday afternoon at the Cineplex you can see them: adolescent boys, there to watch one of the action films that Hollywood makes with an audience of young males in mind. What’s distinctive is where the boys sit in the theater. Though they might’ve come to the movie together and might even be close friends, they’ll leave an empty seat between them.
Just where the empty physical, as well as emotional, space between men comes from has been the essential subject of my research as a scholar of American culture. My work has culminated in a recent book, Picturing Men: A Century Male Relationships in Everyday American Photography.
What accounts for that space? A short answer, something academics like me are notoriously reticent to provide, is that countless American boys and the men that they become are afraid of intimacy with each other, fearful of how intimacy might be construed -- of what others and maybe even they themselves might decide that the closeness suggests. What I’m alluding to, of course, is homophobia.
I have examined the shifting history of intimacy among American males, charting the role that homophobia has played in the shifts that men’s intimacy has experienced over the last century and a half. What are the implications that my historical work might have for two matters prominent in contemporary public debate: first, the so-called “boy problem†in the United States, and secondly, whether persons of the same sex should be permitted to marry?
At Cal State Fullerton, I teach courses called The American Male and Sexual Orientations in American Culture. In some ways these classes occasionally overlap, as my students and I discuss the differences and the similarities between men who consider themselves gay or bisexual and those who think of themselves as straight. Though of course widely accepted today in the United States, the idea that one’s own identity is grounded in the sex of those whom one desires sexually, that the sex of the object of yearning identifies the yearner, rather than simply defining his desires, is a comparatively recent cultural notion.
But it isn’t a universal way of thinking about human sexuality. Scholars too rarely ask if what we know as “sexual orientation†is a fundamental distinction between human beings, or instead is less significant, perhaps much less significant, than gender distinctions.
My students and I often consider whether various kinds of fuss over sexual orientation actually are indirect ways of addressing more basic issues of gender, the ways that a particular society defines the appropriate behavior of males and of females. We examine the ways that negative stereotypes of gay men, for example, not only stigmatize those males considered gay, but also coerce all men to stay within the boundaries of culturally prescribed “male behavior,†lest they be thought queer. It’s common in our culture for a gay male to be thought “unmanly,†but it’s not inevitable that this equation be in force, or even that sexuality be viewed as a simple question of one or the other, gay or straight, with bisexuality in the middle ground.
Such, however, has been our society’s obsession with sexual orientation -- and with “appropriate†manliness -- that an association with gayness came to include certain occupations, words, gestures, and items of apparel, as well as one male’s willingness to express intimacy with another. The greater the scorn heaped upon gay males, the more that all males have been discouraged from displaying behavior associated with gayness -- with anything resembling intimacy heading the list of taboos.
Reflecting the powerful significance of gender in our society is the fact that lesbianism functions quite differently in the culture than does male homosexuality. Though lesbians and gay men are subjected in common to certain forms of discrimination, lesbianism is both stigmatized in some segments of “straight†society and powerfully eroticized in some “straight†quarters as well, a largely unknown occurrence with male homosexuality.
One hardly need suggest that life is easy for lesbians to observe that gay men seem to trouble straight people more, to observe that gay men are more associated with “perversion†than lesbians have been. A tomboy, revealingly enough, is often thought appealing or amusing, qualities never attributed to sissies.
This situation, rather than suggesting that lesbians (often stereotyped as the ultimate tomboys) have it easier, probably attests instead to the fact that the doings of men are simply paid more attention in our society. With male behavior mattering more, those who deviate from the strictures of manhood, then, are singularly bothersome. For those who believe in traditional gender distinctions, females whose behavior is thought to mirror that of males would be considerably less annoying, disgusting, laughable, or even noteworthy than that of “effeminate†men. Whatever the reason, a dislike of lesbianism did not bring about severe restrictions on displays of intimacy among all women in any way analogous to how homophobia prompted distancing between all American men.
For many centuries, various societies in various ways have differentiated between same-sex and different-sex activity. But the word “gay†and, according to many historians, even the very notion of sexual orientation on which it’s based, are of comparatively recent vintage. “Heterosexual†and homosexual†were coined, initially in German, less than a century and a half ago, a simple fact that should give pause to those who speak as if everyone everywhere has always been subject to inborn biological imperatives directing their sexual attention.
Societies may vary in terms of how sexual activities between persons of the same sex are scorned, ignored, or endorsed, but about the existence of oriented sexuality -- even the existence, some suspect, of a gay gene -- there is rarely any doubt. Those who expect to discover a “gay gene†may be just as wrong-headed as those who believe that they have discovered a Biblical injunction against homosexuality.
My own belief, by contrast, is that sexual meanings do not travel well across time and space, that history suggests that “sexual orientation†may be more of a recent human contrivance than a timeless biological phenomenon. Yet one doesn’t have to solve or even directly address the nature versus nurture riddle to simply observe that belief in an oriented sexuality brought with it a fear of male intimacy.
In the late nineteenth century and the early years of the twentieth, as Americans increasingly came to believe that “homosexual†was both an adjective and a noun, and that the word referred to something highly undesirable, men became much more hesitant to express, and even perhaps to feel, intimacy toward one another. In what might aptly be called a lost world of American men, it once was different. Other scholars, notably E. Anthony Rotundo in his 1993 book American Manhood, have shown that intimacy between men was once so encouraged and so widespread in our society that we may accurately speak of “romantic friendships†between males of the nineteenth century.
Picturing Men
While others have relied on traditional historians’ sources, letters and diary entries, to document nineteenth-century comfort with male intimacy (elaborate terms of endearment and unselfconscious physical closeness, for example), my own documentation of the lost world has been with everyday photographs of two or more American men together. With these photographs we can literally see the lost world as it existed, as it later began to disappear, and as it then reappeared with revealing intensity in a particular moment and setting, only to disappear yet again with stark finality.
After systematically reviewing many thousands of images, as well as more conventional sources, I write in Picturing Men that American males, together in pairs and larger groups, once had professional portraits of themselves taken with a revealing frequency, in dramatic contrast to the virtual lack of the practice today. The poses they once commonly struck were even more revealing than the fact that the portrait was taken. With notable nonchalance, they might hold hands, sit on a companion’s lap, share a chair, drape their arms around each other, or perform for the camera what I’ve termed a “pageant of masculinity,†perhaps dressing up as cowboys or striking a frivolous pose that often included a “token of manhood†such as a cigar, liquor bottle, or firearm. Official athletic team portraits were once especially common scenes of closeness among males, with teammates sometimes lying atop each other. When George Eastman’s introduction of roll film in 1888 made it easier for amateurs to take pictures, the earliest snapshots also often showed males, boys and men alike, posing very close together, obviously delighting in one another’s company.
With a distancing and stiffness of pose in team portraits, the first widespread signal of a change, males began slowly but quite surely to move apart in photographs as the twentieth century progressed. If there was to be any more hand-holding, lap-sitting, or chair-sharing, there would usually be an exaggerated facial expression or some other gesture, reassurance to the observer and the observed alike that this was all purely in fun, with no genuine intimacy involved. The contrast between earlier and later poses of men together in photographs is striking, charting an increasing discomfort with closeness to each other’s bodies. The practice of males having their studio portraits taken together, once such a common token of association, was by comparison virtually extinct by the 1930s.
The closeness of old, and even studio portraits of men together, survived, however, even thrived, in the military, particularly in wartime. So common were poses of obviously tender affection between servicemen during the Second World War, and so extensive was men’s participation in that war, that one can speak of no less than a widespread revival during those years of romantic friendships among men.
Some of the wartime photos displayed in Picturing Men may well be of those who discovered other men with same-sex yearnings during the War, a development analyzed well in Allan Berube’s 1990 book, Coming Out under Fire. But the everyday photos that I have studied, unless there is some explicit inscription on an image, cannot document a sexual relationship between the subjects. The presence or absence of intimacy is another matter, and is something to which an everyday photo can sometimes eloquently attest.
Revealingly enough, the ubiquitous intimacy of wartime was conspicuously absent among male civilians in photographs taken during the early postwar years. Even young boys, who, in contrast to older males, had shown more closeness in everyday photos before the War, posed in the 1950s with a formality and lack of closeness that mirrored the poses older males had been striking for decades. The fear of intimacy that would account for the empty theater seat had triumphed, commonly inhibiting the relationships of American males of all ages. Though Picturing Men ends with the 1950s, I believe that the distancing and fear of intimacy that was intensified and became so widespread during those years continues to vex American males in our own time.
The price paid for the fear of men’s intimacy is high –– for all males, not just those who yearn for each other sexually. William Pollack, Jr., in his Real Boys: Rescuing Our Sons from the Myths of Boyhood, and Dan Kindlon and Michael Thompson, in their Raising Cain: Protecting the Emotional Life of Boys, have been foremost among those contemporary analysts looking at how lonely and emotionally inhibited the world of boys can be. They have shown how an intense fear of being thought gay can lead to various forms of overcompensation with cruel consequences. For many American men, this overcompensation does not cease with the end of boyhood.
Because men’s doings have been given more weight, deviations from the culture’s prescriptions for men are particularly troubling for many Americans, with displays of intimacy between men arousing much more scorn than similar displays among women. For example, with a tiresome, utterly predictable, yet highly revealing frequency, the lead actors in Brokeback Mountain were asked what in the world it was like -- implicitly how they could possibly have endured -- kissing another guy. You’d have thought that Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal had climbed Everest. Culturally speaking, for male leads in a major American film, apparently that’s just what they’d done.
It seems plausible, therefore, to propose that some of today’s opponents of same-sex marriage are more bothered by men marrying than by weddings for women. My argument for a gendered approach to sexual orientation does not imply that lesbians have it better. If this must be made a contest, it might be said that, as women, with their doings trivialized, lesbians actually have it worse. What I am suggesting is that some opposition to “gay marriage†is animated by tremendous discomfort with the love, tenderness, and intimacy between men that their marrying each other implies. Notions of men having furtive sex with multiple male partners with whom they are not in love or lastingly involved might be considerably less disagreeable.
Apparently thanks to the cynical design of Bush partisans, debates over same-sex marriage, usually focused on proposals to ban the practice, have in recent years aroused the Bush political base, sending the president’s supporters to the polls in numbers larger than might have been the case without a “gay marriage†controversy. However, the recent Democratic electoral successes suggest that many voters weren’t as distracted by the sexual orientation of their fellow citizens as they had been in 2004. This allowed attention to be turned to more pressing concerns.
It might be well if sexual orientation were less of a distraction –– for us all –– in other aspects of American life beyond politics. We would be a considerably healthier society were we to see sexuality as a matter of much more nuance than a simple gay-straight dichotomy implies. And American men, whoever their sexual partners, would surely have a better time of it if they were able to restore some of that world lost to homophobia. At its heart, history teaches us that little in life is inevitable or immutable, that things surely don’t have to stay the way they currently are. In looking at the quite different way that things once were, Picturing Men reinforces that lesson.
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Posted by: EagleMB on Jul 4, 2007 12:47 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The term "homophobia" implies a fear of homosexuals, not a fear of intimacy. Growing up in the San Francisco Bay Area, I have made more than my fair share of homosexual friends. Although I have no problem with their lifestyle, or even that they are intimate with other men while in my company, I am not very comfortable with them being intimate towards me (even though I know they mean nothing by it). Thus, it is not a fear of homosexuals or homophobia.
I do, however, believe that sexual orientation plays a role in male on male intimacy. Just as a man will act "macho" in front of a woman (even though the woman may want the man to be more sensitive), the same is true for male interaction with other men. It is true that gay men are seen as less masculine as straight men. If a straight man shows signs of intimacy in moern society, he may be perceived as gay, and therefore, less masculine. Thus, it is a gender role issue, not a homophobia issue.
Though lesbians and gay men are subjected in common to certain forms of discrimination, lesbianism is both stigmatized in some segments of “straight” society and powerfully eroticized in some “straight” quarters as well, a largely unknown occurrence with male homosexuality.
This is only true on a very surface level. When straight men have erotic lesbian fantasies, their fantasaies are very heterosexual in nature. The fantasies that straight men have about lesbian encounters is almost always premised on two heterosexual females having a lesbian encounter. In other words, the fantasy is only exciting if they believe that the women are acting for the sole purpose of pleasing the man.
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» i agree
Posted by: schokoprinz
» RE: You make a good geographic point as well...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: You make a good geographic point as well...
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: You make a good geographic point as well...
Posted by: morticia
» I think it is because of the militancy of homosexuals, the fear propaganda of the press/lawyers,
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: I think it is because of the militancy of homosexuals, the fear propaganda of the press/lawyers,
Posted by: schokoprinz
» RE: This is partially true, for sure...
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: mmales on Jul 4, 2007 1:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Agreed, I think it is out of subconscious jealousy
Posted by: ateo
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Posted by: frosty86 on Jul 4, 2007 3:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I'm honestly not sure what your point is...
Posted by: mjabele
» her point is...
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: I'm honestly not sure what your point is...
Posted by: frosty86
» Response to frosty.....(1)
Posted by: mjabele
» Response to frosty.....(2)
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: esponse to frosty.....(2)
Posted by: FoJ
» RE: Yes, sexual orientation is implicated
Posted by: H_H
» RE: Yes, sexual orientation is implicated
Posted by: maestra
» Once again, another response with no argument made...
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Once again, another response with no argument made...
Posted by: H_H
» RE: Once again, another response with no argument made...
Posted by: frosty86
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jul 4, 2007 3:45 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Europeans seem effeminate or eccentric to us, it may be because they are less insecure and/or under the gun of a fascist regime (God bless America). Or maybe they're just really weird over there...especially the French, dammit!
And if we think Oriental countries seem overcrowded with overconforming, docile people who act and dress the same, maybe that's how we look to Europeans.
This is a great topic, and hopefully a good discussion.
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Posted by: gistre on Jul 4, 2007 4:43 AM
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» RE: Just give these boys 20 years.
Posted by: apeshow
» RE: Just give these boys 20 years.
Posted by: maestra
» RE: Just give these boys 20 years.
Posted by: s_mead
» Simple explanation...
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Just give these boys 20 years.
Posted by: aerdrie
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Posted by: suprmark on Jul 4, 2007 5:12 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: minbills on Jul 4, 2007 7:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On one island, a reputedly gay man won political office and is apparently, doing a fine job for his constituency. This caused a furor among members of the Opposition party and a prominent church minister, on a popular call-in radio talk show, proclaimed this politician and all like him should be burned at the stake. In the name of God?
In the Caribbean male homosexuality is feared and always the butt of jokes. Gays (with the exception of a few flamboyant men) live in secret. Many live deep in the closet and are married with children. They are jeered as "Auntie Man"
I have never heard lesbianism discussed although we know it exists in the community, and several of these women are doing splendid jobs of raising their children. They have found each other because the average West Indian 'father 'is more interested in adding notches to his gun rather than take responsibility for what his bullets produce.
As an American, and after all my years doing business here, I am still considered an outsider. In my 'gung ho" enthusiasm, I hugged my accountant and his wife when their son scored a winning point at a particularly tense football match. My spontaneous hug terrified the man and he has politely refused to work for me since. He is a good accountant, too.
Welcome to the West Indies.
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» One Theory...
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Homophobia -- a Caribbean view
Posted by: minbills
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Posted by: equity on Jul 4, 2007 7:46 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
- Not a "right-winger"
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» RE: African American Female's Perspective
Posted by: gistre
» RE: African American Female's Perspective
Posted by: s_mead
» RE: African American Female's Perspective
Posted by: aerdrie
» RE: African American Female's Perspective
Posted by: minbills
» RE: African American Female's Perspective
Posted by: FoJ
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Jul 4, 2007 8:10 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think it's a product of homosexuality and the issues of gay men constantly being in the news. It keeps these things in the forefront of peoples' minds.
Also, once a man has a wife and kids, he becomes less vulnerable and is free to show more "affection" for other men. Unattached males (like the teenagers mentioned) are more easily suspect and so are driven apart.
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Posted by: Ruperic on Jul 4, 2007 8:13 AM
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Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Jul 4, 2007 8:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gay male friendships in the 21st century are not necessarily more physically intimate than straight male friendships. We follow the same American patterns others here mention: if our ancestors were from Italy or Latin America, probably more demonstrative; if from northern Europe much less so, etc.
In Massachusetts, about 3 times as many lesbian couples have gotten married as gay male couples. This seems to me a standard & quite ordinary gender difference. I wonder does the author think we should see something wrong with men's socialization based on this statistic? (Yeah, I realize some feminists will say men in general are just basically defective!)
Male intimacy in a military setting is to be expected. As a (gay male) veteran I understand... but this article veers close to saying: Isn't WAR great? Look how it promotes male intimacy! ...uh, the author might want to rethink that implication.
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» RE: Odd article
Posted by: H_H
» RE: Odd article
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Odd article
Posted by: s_mead
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Posted by: boysen on Jul 4, 2007 8:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think that in addition to being afraid of gay men (as something outside of themselves, object) - many men are deeply afraid to actually look inside at their own feelings, their motivations, desires, longings, feelings, hopes. This fear gets projected outward onto convenient target groups, homosexuals, women (as shown in some comments on this string), arabs, blacks, the "other". I believe that homophobia and other targeting behaviors can only break down when a person is ready to take responsibility for all the emotional realities that are floating around inside - and key to this may be to acknowledge and express the feelings of powerlessness that are inherent in much of the subjective (and even in the objective) realities of human beings in our time.
We're told to be very afraid of all the terrible stuff happening out there - and at the same time we are told to NOT be afraid, to suck it up, act tough, kick ass, Live Free or Die Harder, hurt anything that does not stick to the game of invulnerability.
As pointed out in the article - men in war become able to share intimacy because it becomes impossible to hold onto a sense of false power in the chaos of war. I would argue that 'modern' warfare is less likely to create this intimacy because of the differences in weaponry and the deeply ingrained unhealthy notions of Manhood that pervade the military.
I also agree with the commenter who says that much of this is fear of youth. I believe that many in the younger generations have acknowledged this disconnection and worked through it in significant ways. I caution however - there are very distinct CLASS differences at work in this argument. AND it may also be that we do not SOLIDIFY our coping mechanisms until we reach our 30's and 40's. Maybe these young people just haven't been beaten down enough to 'play the game' yet.
If you're looking for a way, as a man, to work through some of this ... check out the ManKind Project. I think they're doing some great work.
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Posted by: sausage on Jul 4, 2007 8:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Take care of my dear Lady Hamilton, Hardy, take care of poor Lady Hamilton". He paused then said very faintly, "Kiss me, Hardy". This, Hardy did, on the cheek. Nelson then said, "Now I am satisfied. Thank God I have done my duty".
One cannot imagine any of the hyper-macho commanders of US troops in Iraq ever saying anything remotely similar.
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» RE: Would Lord Nelson say, "Kiss me, Hardy" today?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Would Lord Nelson say, "Kiss me, Hardy" today?
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: H_H on Jul 4, 2007 8:38 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Next period is ice dancing. Two girls may dance together. Two boys may not dance together." (Because there were more girls than boys during this period, they wanted to make sure there weren't too many girls going without partners.)
On one occasion, two boys, because they wanted to be clever wags, decided to dance together for the period. They were asked to leave.
If the author had seen this unfold, this innocent prank surely would become (yet) more proof of how society refuses to tolerate even an inkling of non-heteronormative behavior.
In fact, the idea of there even being a "natural" sexual orientation is an ideological construct meant to impose unnatural behavior upon us. But being gay, well, that's natural.
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» Did you see "Blades of Glory"?
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: I remember something from years past...
Posted by: frosty86
» Oh my God. Frosty can't sense irony.
Posted by: H_H
» RE: Oh my God. Frosty can't sense irony.
Posted by: frosty86
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Posted by: renelucy on Jul 4, 2007 9:23 AM
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» RE: A Gay Perspective
Posted by: kelt65
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Posted by: cef on Jul 4, 2007 11:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And also, it is not lesbianism per se that turns men on, I think it is the concentrated display of female lust that arouses us. Many men, judging from the prevalence of such images on the internet, are tittillated by seeing females masterbating.
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» RE: cephalis
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» RE: cephalis
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» RE: cephalis
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Posted by: CatDad on Jul 4, 2007 12:04 PM
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Posted by: yesman on Jul 4, 2007 2:25 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. From my personal experience: When I was growing up, kids didn't usually start dating until their mid-teens--age 16 or so. These days, even kids in elementary school are expected to "have a girl/boyfriend." The point being that even small children are now expected to begin to demonstrate their heterosexual tendencies, even long before puberty.
2. This is implied by what the author says (and has been noted explicitly by other writers): male intimacy is now only acceptable in situations where hypermasculine behaviors are also required--war, sports, etc. Since such men have demonstrated their masculinity beyond question, the fear of intimacy is reduced somewhat. One wonders what the effect will be of more professional athletes coming out of the closet or of the demise of anti-gay policies in the military.
3. One way of describing the history which the author relates is to say that it is the history of the decline of friendship. Intimate friendships--especially between males--have largely disappeared. This disappearance, however, is only a part of the decline of human relationships and intimacy in general. In contrast to 30 or 40 years ago, "love" hardly appears at all in popular culture these days. Relationships are portrayed as based on what can be gained from the other party--money, sexual satisfaction, social status, etc. This chamge in culture reflects a similar change in people's real lives. "Love" is thought to be corny or quaint (or a euphemism for sex). From the widest perspective, this change is just a part of the general attack upon interior life. Unpredictable emotions and uncontrolled thoughts are bad for business. So, there is an ongoing attempt to destroy interiority--to produce "people" who are completely manipulable consumers. This, of course, is all part of the triumph of the capitalist "free market"--the destruction of all values except monetary or exchange value, the commoditization of the world.
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Posted by: rminor on Jul 4, 2007 2:52 PM
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Posted by: justaguy on Jul 4, 2007 2:54 PM
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I immediately turned to my sister and said "If that's what the army is like, I'd hate to think what the navy gets up to".
Just kidding.
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» RE: Arab men hold hands... in a homophobic culture.
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» Don't believe everything you read...
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Don't believe everything you read...
Posted by: DCBeltway
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Posted by: ShoShenQ on Jul 4, 2007 3:36 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe the author himself is a homo still hiding in the closet, but whats certain is that Alternet served us another boring and useless article, thinking of I cant even believe it that I read the whole pamphlet, the author stole me 10 minutes of my life I will never be able to get back -sigh.
Thank you pseudo-science !
PS: I have nothing against homo as long as they dont try to hold my hand or anything else !
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» Question for the yawner...
Posted by: Progressive Citizen
» RE: yawn
Posted by: angryyoungwoman
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Posted by: frosty86 on Jul 4, 2007 4:00 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Saying that this is about "cultural differences" does nothing to explain WHY it exists. It just another way of saying it exists. And we already knew that.
Saying that this is about men's gender roles rather than sexual orientation ignores what sexual orientation is based on--GENDER!!! And it still doesn't explain WHY this should exist among men and not women.
Saying this is about the pressure to conform "in general" doesn't explain WHY we are conforming to THIS behavior and not another pattern...like, say, intimacy between men.
...Can we please come up with more intelligent analyses and discussions of this issue...rather than repeating the same tired explanations that don't answer questions like "why," "to whose benefit?" and "to what ends?"?
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» You asked for it, you got it
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: You asked for it, you got it
Posted by: angryyoungwoman
» Hmm. Murderer, or cross-dresser? Decisions, decisions.
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: HughScott on Jul 4, 2007 4:05 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For the same reason my 67-year-old married brother and I do when we go to flicks togather. It gives us MORE ELBOW ROOM, you idiot!
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Posted by: FoJ on Jul 4, 2007 6:13 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The most insulting is the categorization of homosexuality as solely a sexual act, as in "idea that one’s own identity is grounded in the sex of those whom one desires sexually,". Homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is not just about whom one desires sexually, but also romantically, emotionally, spiritually, intimately.
As a society, we take for granted that the manifestations of intimacy Ibson lists ("elaborate terms of endearment and unselfconscious physical closeness, for example") are indications of sexual desire as well, when seen in a heterocentric relationship. Yet Ibson dismisses the majority of such intimacies between two males as non-sexual 'friendship'.
The reality is that non-sexual intimacy, unselfconscious physical closeness, terms of endearment are vital parts of same-sex, homoerotic relationships.
The more relevant comparison would have been to the distancing that was prevalent between heterosexual men and women during the Victorian age - when the fear of sexuality was so extreme that even husbands and wives treated each other as cold acquaintances more than as passionate lovers.
Ibson's assumption that the concept of homosexuality is new is in error as well. There exists a lengthy catalog of expressions of same-sex attraction, linking romantic and emotional intimacy to physical, sexual attraction, going back to Athenian Greece, including works that recognized that some people were only attracted to their own gender, some only to the opposite gender, and some to both genders. Same-sex pair bonding was documented throughout history. His mistake lies in defining sexual orienation by sexual activity, and that is a degrading assumption.
This next assumption reveals the core bias that ruins Ibsen's work: "But the everyday photos that I have studied, unless there is some explicit inscription on an image, cannot document a sexual relationship between the subjects. "
This statement would be deemed irrational, if made about photos of mixed-gender couples. There exist millions of everyday photos of mixed gender couples, and we do not assume that, unless there is an explicit inscription on the image, the two are really homosexuals with no physical, emotional and spiritual attraction to each other. To the contrary, when provided images of such casual physical intimacy between two people of the opposite gender, we presume that some significant degree of sexual, emotional and spiritual attraction exists between them. Yet Ibsen assumes that unless proven otherwise, all of the subjects in his photos are heterosexual.
It appears that Ibsen did not take into consideration the experience of any gay men. Had he, he'd have found that the very casual intimacy he deems lacking in het males today, is the norm among gay men, just as casual intimacy between people of opposite genders is the norm among heterosexuals.
Lastly, Ibsen is profoundly mistaken about the way that 'masculine' women are perceived of and treated by our society. Given how constant the barrage of verbal abuse directed at the current crop of strong, masculine, yet heterosexual women in politics is today, that oversight is disturbing. The verbal violence directed lately at Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer, and Elizabeth Edwards proves the falseness of to Ibsen's claim: "females whose behavior is thought to mirror that of males would be considerably less annoying, disgusting, laughable, or even noteworthy than that of “effeminate” men." Meanwhile, Coulter is embraced by the traditionalists for playing the stereotypical 'fishwife' role by being shrill, abusive and degrading, without demonstrating the "masculine" traits of reason, logic and use of evidence.
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Posted by: dragon1947 on Jul 4, 2007 6:35 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: get fucking real (profanity appropriate)
Posted by: Progressive Citizen
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Posted by: SIGGY on Jul 4, 2007 7:47 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess it was only a matter of time before being hetro was labelled abnormal.
I have always taken measures to mitigate my inherant predjudices....I'm human after all; so I'm born and and raised with some slanted views on life. But I work on it.
I grew up, having had my brother (14 at the time) raped by a man he was hired to babysit for; so that was my introduction to the gay lifestyle. I've since moderated considerably and moved to the center.
However comma, I have established my own theory and settled on the following:
I essentially have no problem with gays. keep it to yourself [like religion] and we'll get along just fine. My one issue, is that I do not understand why the gay community does not simply acknowledge that thier "condition" or "orientation" is in a word, abnormal........like I as a diabetic, have a naturally occurring abnormal condition.
A snake with two heads, is a naturally occurring phenomenom, in nature.....it is however, not a normal condifiton. I place homosexuality in that "box".
Do not mistake my motives; this has nothing to do with religion
I'm not saying that being gay is bad, nasty or otherwise a bad label; but simple acknowledge the situation, be honest about it , and I'm sure that the community at large would be much more accepting and tolerant.
By insisting that being gay is perfectly normal, and in the case of this article, indicating that being hetro by birth automatically makes one a gay basher, is hog-swallop.
regards...Siggy.
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jul 4, 2007 8:08 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you don't want to be hugged, fine. If you want to be hugged, find a consenting adult. Cool it with the anti-choice rhetoric, or join the appropriate congregation.
My goodness.
Moralist
Fundy
Crusaders.
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Posted by: arthurs-1 on Jul 5, 2007 6:30 AM
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Overall, I think this need that women have to please straight guys goes back to the way women are brought up by their parents. Women are largely taught to enhance themselves with make-up, pretty dresses, stilletoes, long and flowing hair etc etc. This all serves to set them up as eye-candy for straight guys. Men are taught to be practical and achievement-oriented.
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» RE: Women need to take responsibility for the homosexual double standard
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Women need to take responsibility for the homosexual double standard
Posted by: arthurs-1
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Posted by: arthurs-1 on Jul 5, 2007 6:45 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For example, consider the male heterosexual privilege of reserving the right to stare at women and to have affairs with them. Men do this quite often. Women, in turn, exploit this by dressing provocatively and inappropriately in cleavage-revealing dresses and short skirts. The man's privilege is to stare, the woman's is to provide him with the eye-candy. Both get an ego boost from this cultural inequality. Female homosexuality of the "chic" variety serves a similar purpose.
It's also my view that liberalism has led to this cultural inequality. The model for liberalism, in my opinion, is a fully-clothed straight guy standing next to his nearly-naked bisexual female date at a porn awards night.
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» RE: Women and men play their privileges off against each other
Posted by: angryyoungwoman
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Posted by: arthurs-1 on Jul 5, 2007 7:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ibson's studies of male portraits suggest a bygone era where male sexuality was undivided. If you were a man, you were heterosexual, and that was that. Even if you were gay in your private feelings, you suppressed them and got married to a woman.
As male sexuality has become increasingly divided by the rise of the gay rights movement, perhaps straight guys have felt confused and somewhat "under siege", hence their physical recoiling from each other. The answer to breaking down the division without returning to the bygone repressive era is quite simple: we need a bisexual men's movement.
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Posted by: opeluboy on Jul 6, 2007 3:26 PM
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Posted by: lessbread on Jul 6, 2007 4:28 PM
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Posted by: cinattra on Jul 7, 2007 8:44 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The downside is that sometimes physical play can get out of hand especially among peers. In the good old days if you got into fight with your best friend when play got too rough once the fight was over you were back friends.
You're not going to see two American straight dudes arms draped over each other unless there is a beer in the other hand or they're praying. That's just culture not homophobia. You want to change that then change tv.
The seat thing is so guys can be guys. Leaning back with the most uncomfortable looking crook in your neck and back on the couch or the movie theatre seat with legs spread open. You can't do that if you're sitting right next to a guy doing the same thing.
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Posted by: ladmeaux on Jul 9, 2007 10:01 AM
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Posted by: mercury613 on Jul 9, 2007 1:28 PM
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Posted by: diodd on Jul 11, 2007 10:18 AM
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However, I think it's sort of dismissive and unhelpful to assign the various distancing customs of straight men to the word "homophobia." I came out several years ago (I'm a guy) and the most surprising thing about the GLBT community from the inside is the degree to which THEY dismiss and put down same-sex intimacy that isn't associated with gay sexuality (or with marriage or exclusive partnership). It would come up with me and my boyfriends on an everyday basis: we would see some straight guys in a bowling alley being jokingly affectionate, and my boyfriends would graphically describe how they must "really" be in the closet and want to have sex with each other. They would respond the same way to any discussion of more expressive customs from other countries like Brazil. And most GLBT authors' discussion of history is equally fixated on "claiming" all same-sex love for the gay movement: authors allege that various figures "were really gay" because of affectionate behavior or flowery letters, without even discussing the fact that straight culture has changed over time and behavior like this was once part of mainstream friendship.
It is as if many people in the GLBT movement want to claim all of same-sex love as "their territory" but they are not actually interested in friendship, despite the fact that it is the most popular form of same-sex love in this country. I'm not saying they think friendship should be more expressive, I'm saying they don't care to discuss it at all, which is why when you join a coming-out support group, the common response to any discussion of a friendship with a straight guy is basically dismissive that any real emotion could exist in such a friendship if no sex is occurring. Of course, not all gay people are like this, some of the best research on changing customs around friendship is also done by LGBT authors (mostly lesbians though). But enough people are like this, and have enough power, that it slants the movement.
I think the straight guys on this comment board have a right to be miffed about being called homophobic, even though I personally prefer to be expressive in friendship myself (like the Brazillians, who cheek-kiss and hold hands). Yes, the distancing rules are arbitrary, but it doesn't mean they don't love their friends, or that they hate gay people. It just means that as long as our society defines people by "sexual orientation," guys who have ambiguous friendships will get in trouble with their girlfriends and wives who think if they aren't "straight enough" they're going to leave them, and their friends may be worried they want to have sex with them. The gay movement promotes the idea that "straight" men are not supposed to be cuddly, and cuddly men must really want to have sex with you, as much or more than anybody else. I wish it didn't, but I'm only one person.
My coming-out experience led me to realize that you can kiss and hold hands all you want and still be emotionally distant (like my ex-boyfriends), or you can just pat each other on the back, and smile, and forgive your friends when they do stupid things, and say sappy things to them in private, and that can have a lot of emotional significance.
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Posted by: Marikken on Jul 13, 2007 3:28 PM
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Posted by: EagleMB on Jul 4, 2007 12:47 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The term "homophobia" implies a fear of homosexuals, not a fear of intimacy. Growing up in the San Francisco Bay Area, I have made more than my fair share of homosexual friends. Although I have no problem with their lifestyle, or even that they are intimate with other men while in my company, I am not very comfortable with them being intimate towards me (even though I know they mean nothing by it). Thus, it is not a fear of homosexuals or homophobia.
I do, however, believe that sexual orientation plays a role in male on male intimacy. Just as a man will act "macho" in front of a woman (even though the woman may want the man to be more sensitive), the same is true for male interaction with other men. It is true that gay men are seen as less masculine as straight men. If a straight man shows signs of intimacy in moern society, he may be perceived as gay, and therefore, less masculine. Thus, it is a gender role issue, not a homophobia issue.
Though lesbians and gay men are subjected in common to certain forms of discrimination, lesbianism is both stigmatized in some segments of “straight” society and powerfully eroticized in some “straight” quarters as well, a largely unknown occurrence with male homosexuality.
This is only true on a very surface level. When straight men have erotic lesbian fantasies, their fantasaies are very heterosexual in nature. The fantasies that straight men have about lesbian encounters is almost always premised on two heterosexual females having a lesbian encounter. In other words, the fantasy is only exciting if they believe that the women are acting for the sole purpose of pleasing the man.
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» i agree
Posted by: schokoprinz
» RE: You make a good geographic point as well...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: You make a good geographic point as well...
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: You make a good geographic point as well...
Posted by: morticia
» I think it is because of the militancy of homosexuals, the fear propaganda of the press/lawyers,
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: I think it is because of the militancy of homosexuals, the fear propaganda of the press/lawyers,
Posted by: schokoprinz
» RE: This is partially true, for sure...
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: mmales on Jul 4, 2007 1:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Agreed, I think it is out of subconscious jealousy
Posted by: ateo
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Posted by: frosty86 on Jul 4, 2007 3:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I'm honestly not sure what your point is...
Posted by: mjabele
» her point is...
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: I'm honestly not sure what your point is...
Posted by: frosty86
» Response to frosty.....(1)
Posted by: mjabele
» Response to frosty.....(2)
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: esponse to frosty.....(2)
Posted by: FoJ
» RE: Yes, sexual orientation is implicated
Posted by: H_H
» RE: Yes, sexual orientation is implicated
Posted by: maestra
» Once again, another response with no argument made...
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Once again, another response with no argument made...
Posted by: H_H
» RE: Once again, another response with no argument made...
Posted by: frosty86
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jul 4, 2007 3:45 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Europeans seem effeminate or eccentric to us, it may be because they are less insecure and/or under the gun of a fascist regime (God bless America). Or maybe they're just really weird over there...especially the French, dammit!
And if we think Oriental countries seem overcrowded with overconforming, docile people who act and dress the same, maybe that's how we look to Europeans.
This is a great topic, and hopefully a good discussion.
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Posted by: gistre on Jul 4, 2007 4:43 AM
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» RE: Just give these boys 20 years.
Posted by: apeshow
» RE: Just give these boys 20 years.
Posted by: maestra
» RE: Just give these boys 20 years.
Posted by: s_mead
» Simple explanation...
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Just give these boys 20 years.
Posted by: aerdrie
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Posted by: suprmark on Jul 4, 2007 5:12 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: minbills on Jul 4, 2007 7:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On one island, a reputedly gay man won political office and is apparently, doing a fine job for his constituency. This caused a furor among members of the Opposition party and a prominent church minister, on a popular call-in radio talk show, proclaimed this politician and all like him should be burned at the stake. In the name of God?
In the Caribbean male homosexuality is feared and always the butt of jokes. Gays (with the exception of a few flamboyant men) live in secret. Many live deep in the closet and are married with children. They are jeered as "Auntie Man"
I have never heard lesbianism discussed although we know it exists in the community, and several of these women are doing splendid jobs of raising their children. They have found each other because the average West Indian 'father 'is more interested in adding notches to his gun rather than take responsibility for what his bullets produce.
As an American, and after all my years doing business here, I am still considered an outsider. In my 'gung ho" enthusiasm, I hugged my accountant and his wife when their son scored a winning point at a particularly tense football match. My spontaneous hug terrified the man and he has politely refused to work for me since. He is a good accountant, too.
Welcome to the West Indies.
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» One Theory...
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Homophobia -- a Caribbean view
Posted by: minbills
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Posted by: equity on Jul 4, 2007 7:46 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
- Not a "right-winger"
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» RE: African American Female's Perspective
Posted by: gistre
» RE: African American Female's Perspective
Posted by: s_mead
» RE: African American Female's Perspective
Posted by: aerdrie
» RE: African American Female's Perspective
Posted by: minbills
» RE: African American Female's Perspective
Posted by: FoJ
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Jul 4, 2007 8:10 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think it's a product of homosexuality and the issues of gay men constantly being in the news. It keeps these things in the forefront of peoples' minds.
Also, once a man has a wife and kids, he becomes less vulnerable and is free to show more "affection" for other men. Unattached males (like the teenagers mentioned) are more easily suspect and so are driven apart.
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Posted by: Ruperic on Jul 4, 2007 8:13 AM
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Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Jul 4, 2007 8:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gay male friendships in the 21st century are not necessarily more physically intimate than straight male friendships. We follow the same American patterns others here mention: if our ancestors were from Italy or Latin America, probably more demonstrative; if from northern Europe much less so, etc.
In Massachusetts, about 3 times as many lesbian couples have gotten married as gay male couples. This seems to me a standard & quite ordinary gender difference. I wonder does the author think we should see something wrong with men's socialization based on this statistic? (Yeah, I realize some feminists will say men in general are just basically defective!)
Male intimacy in a military setting is to be expected. As a (gay male) veteran I understand... but this article veers close to saying: Isn't WAR great? Look how it promotes male intimacy! ...uh, the author might want to rethink that implication.
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» RE: Odd article
Posted by: H_H
» RE: Odd article
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Odd article
Posted by: s_mead
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Posted by: boysen on Jul 4, 2007 8:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think that in addition to being afraid of gay men (as something outside of themselves, object) - many men are deeply afraid to actually look inside at their own feelings, their motivations, desires, longings, feelings, hopes. This fear gets projected outward onto convenient target groups, homosexuals, women (as shown in some comments on this string), arabs, blacks, the "other". I believe that homophobia and other targeting behaviors can only break down when a person is ready to take responsibility for all the emotional realities that are floating around inside - and key to this may be to acknowledge and express the feelings of powerlessness that are inherent in much of the subjective (and even in the objective) realities of human beings in our time.
We're told to be very afraid of all the terrible stuff happening out there - and at the same time we are told to NOT be afraid, to suck it up, act tough, kick ass, Live Free or Die Harder, hurt anything that does not stick to the game of invulnerability.
As pointed out in the article - men in war become able to share intimacy because it becomes impossible to hold onto a sense of false power in the chaos of war. I would argue that 'modern' warfare is less likely to create this intimacy because of the differences in weaponry and the deeply ingrained unhealthy notions of Manhood that pervade the military.
I also agree with the commenter who says that much of this is fear of youth. I believe that many in the younger generations have acknowledged this disconnection and worked through it in significant ways. I caution however - there are very distinct CLASS differences at work in this argument. AND it may also be that we do not SOLIDIFY our coping mechanisms until we reach our 30's and 40's. Maybe these young people just haven't been beaten down enough to 'play the game' yet.
If you're looking for a way, as a man, to work through some of this ... check out the ManKind Project. I think they're doing some great work.
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Posted by: sausage on Jul 4, 2007 8:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Take care of my dear Lady Hamilton, Hardy, take care of poor Lady Hamilton". He paused then said very faintly, "Kiss me, Hardy". This, Hardy did, on the cheek. Nelson then said, "Now I am satisfied. Thank God I have done my duty".
One cannot imagine any of the hyper-macho commanders of US troops in Iraq ever saying anything remotely similar.
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» RE: Would Lord Nelson say, "Kiss me, Hardy" today?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Would Lord Nelson say, "Kiss me, Hardy" today?
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: H_H on Jul 4, 2007 8:38 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Next period is ice dancing. Two girls may dance together. Two boys may not dance together." (Because there were more girls than boys during this period, they wanted to make sure there weren't too many girls going without partners.)
On one occasion, two boys, because they wanted to be clever wags, decided to dance together for the period. They were asked to leave.
If the author had seen this unfold, this innocent prank surely would become (yet) more proof of how society refuses to tolerate even an inkling of non-heteronormative behavior.
In fact, the idea of there even being a "natural" sexual orientation is an ideological construct meant to impose unnatural behavior upon us. But being gay, well, that's natural.
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» Did you see "Blades of Glory"?
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: I remember something from years past...
Posted by: frosty86
» Oh my God. Frosty can't sense irony.
Posted by: H_H
» RE: Oh my God. Frosty can't sense irony.
Posted by: frosty86
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Posted by: renelucy on Jul 4, 2007 9:23 AM
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» RE: A Gay Perspective
Posted by: kelt65
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Posted by: cef on Jul 4, 2007 11:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And also, it is not lesbianism per se that turns men on, I think it is the concentrated display of female lust that arouses us. Many men, judging from the prevalence of such images on the internet, are tittillated by seeing females masterbating.
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» RE: cephalis
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: cephalis
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: cephalis
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: cephalis
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: cephalis
Posted by: suprmark
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Posted by: CatDad on Jul 4, 2007 12:04 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: yesman on Jul 4, 2007 2:25 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. From my personal experience: When I was growing up, kids didn't usually start dating until their mid-teens--age 16 or so. These days, even kids in elementary school are expected to "have a girl/boyfriend." The point being that even small children are now expected to begin to demonstrate their heterosexual tendencies, even long before puberty.
2. This is implied by what the author says (and has been noted explicitly by other writers): male intimacy is now only acceptable in situations where hypermasculine behaviors are also required--war, sports, etc. Since such men have demonstrated their masculinity beyond question, the fear of intimacy is reduced somewhat. One wonders what the effect will be of more professional athletes coming out of the closet or of the demise of anti-gay policies in the military.
3. One way of describing the history which the author relates is to say that it is the history of the decline of friendship. Intimate friendships--especially between males--have largely disappeared. This disappearance, however, is only a part of the decline of human relationships and intimacy in general. In contrast to 30 or 40 years ago, "love" hardly appears at all in popular culture these days. Relationships are portrayed as based on what can be gained from the other party--money, sexual satisfaction, social status, etc. This chamge in culture reflects a similar change in people's real lives. "Love" is thought to be corny or quaint (or a euphemism for sex). From the widest perspective, this change is just a part of the general attack upon interior life. Unpredictable emotions and uncontrolled thoughts are bad for business. So, there is an ongoing attempt to destroy interiority--to produce "people" who are completely manipulable consumers. This, of course, is all part of the triumph of the capitalist "free market"--the destruction of all values except monetary or exchange value, the commoditization of the world.
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Posted by: rminor on Jul 4, 2007 2:52 PM
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Posted by: justaguy on Jul 4, 2007 2:54 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I immediately turned to my sister and said "If that's what the army is like, I'd hate to think what the navy gets up to".
Just kidding.
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» RE: Arab men hold hands... in a homophobic culture.
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» Don't believe everything you read...
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Don't believe everything you read...
Posted by: DCBeltway
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Posted by: ShoShenQ on Jul 4, 2007 3:36 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe the author himself is a homo still hiding in the closet, but whats certain is that Alternet served us another boring and useless article, thinking of I cant even believe it that I read the whole pamphlet, the author stole me 10 minutes of my life I will never be able to get back -sigh.
Thank you pseudo-science !
PS: I have nothing against homo as long as they dont try to hold my hand or anything else !
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» Question for the yawner...
Posted by: Progressive Citizen
» RE: yawn
Posted by: angryyoungwoman
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Posted by: frosty86 on Jul 4, 2007 4:00 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Saying that this is about "cultural differences" does nothing to explain WHY it exists. It just another way of saying it exists. And we already knew that.
Saying that this is about men's gender roles rather than sexual orientation ignores what sexual orientation is based on--GENDER!!! And it still doesn't explain WHY this should exist among men and not women.
Saying this is about the pressure to conform "in general" doesn't explain WHY we are conforming to THIS behavior and not another pattern...like, say, intimacy between men.
...Can we please come up with more intelligent analyses and discussions of this issue...rather than repeating the same tired explanations that don't answer questions like "why," "to whose benefit?" and "to what ends?"?
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» You asked for it, you got it
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: You asked for it, you got it
Posted by: angryyoungwoman
» Hmm. Murderer, or cross-dresser? Decisions, decisions.
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: HughScott on Jul 4, 2007 4:05 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For the same reason my 67-year-old married brother and I do when we go to flicks togather. It gives us MORE ELBOW ROOM, you idiot!
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Posted by: FoJ on Jul 4, 2007 6:13 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The most insulting is the categorization of homosexuality as solely a sexual act, as in "idea that one’s own identity is grounded in the sex of those whom one desires sexually,". Homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is not just about whom one desires sexually, but also romantically, emotionally, spiritually, intimately.
As a society, we take for granted that the manifestations of intimacy Ibson lists ("elaborate terms of endearment and unselfconscious physical closeness, for example") are indications of sexual desire as well, when seen in a heterocentric relationship. Yet Ibson dismisses the majority of such intimacies between two males as non-sexual 'friendship'.
The reality is that non-sexual intimacy, unselfconscious physical closeness, terms of endearment are vital parts of same-sex, homoerotic relationships.
The more relevant comparison would have been to the distancing that was prevalent between heterosexual men and women during the Victorian age - when the fear of sexuality was so extreme that even husbands and wives treated each other as cold acquaintances more than as passionate lovers.
Ibson's assumption that the concept of homosexuality is new is in error as well. There exists a lengthy catalog of expressions of same-sex attraction, linking romantic and emotional intimacy to physical, sexual attraction, going back to Athenian Greece, including works that recognized that some people were only attracted to their own gender, some only to the opposite gender, and some to both genders. Same-sex pair bonding was documented throughout history. His mistake lies in defining sexual orienation by sexual activity, and that is a degrading assumption.
This next assumption reveals the core bias that ruins Ibsen's work: "But the everyday photos that I have studied, unless there is some explicit inscription on an image, cannot document a sexual relationship between the subjects. "
This statement would be deemed irrational, if made about photos of mixed-gender couples. There exist millions of everyday photos of mixed gender couples, and we do not assume that, unless there is an explicit inscription on the image, the two are really homosexuals with no physical, emotional and spiritual attraction to each other. To the contrary, when provided images of such casual physical intimacy between two people of the opposite gender, we presume that some significant degree of sexual, emotional and spiritual attraction exists between them. Yet Ibsen assumes that unless proven otherwise, all of the subjects in his photos are heterosexual.
It appears that Ibsen did not take into consideration the experience of any gay men. Had he, he'd have found that the very casual intimacy he deems lacking in het males today, is the norm among gay men, just as casual intimacy between people of opposite genders is the norm among heterosexuals.
Lastly, Ibsen is profoundly mistaken about the way that 'masculine' women are perceived of and treated by our society. Given how constant the barrage of verbal abuse directed at the current crop of strong, masculine, yet heterosexual women in politics is today, that oversight is disturbing. The verbal violence directed lately at Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer, and Elizabeth Edwards proves the falseness of to Ibsen's claim: "females whose behavior is thought to mirror that of males would be considerably less annoying, disgusting, laughable, or even noteworthy than that of “effeminate” men." Meanwhile, Coulter is embraced by the traditionalists for playing the stereotypical 'fishwife' role by being shrill, abusive and degrading, without demonstrating the "masculine" traits of reason, logic and use of evidence.
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Posted by: dragon1947 on Jul 4, 2007 6:35 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: get fucking real (profanity appropriate)
Posted by: Progressive Citizen
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Posted by: SIGGY on Jul 4, 2007 7:47 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess it was only a matter of time before being hetro was labelled abnormal.
I have always taken measures to mitigate my inherant predjudices....I'm human after all; so I'm born and and raised with some slanted views on life. But I work on it.
I grew up, having had my brother (14 at the time) raped by a man he was hired to babysit for; so that was my introduction to the gay lifestyle. I've since moderated considerably and moved to the center.
However comma, I have established my own theory and settled on the following:
I essentially have no problem with gays. keep it to yourself [like religion] and we'll get along just fine. My one issue, is that I do not understand why the gay community does not simply acknowledge that thier "condition" or "orientation" is in a word, abnormal........like I as a diabetic, have a naturally occurring abnormal condition.
A snake with two heads, is a naturally occurring phenomenom, in nature.....it is however, not a normal condifiton. I place homosexuality in that "box".
Do not mistake my motives; this has nothing to do with religion
I'm not saying that being gay is bad, nasty or otherwise a bad label; but simple acknowledge the situation, be honest about it , and I'm sure that the community at large would be much more accepting and tolerant.
By insisting that being gay is perfectly normal, and in the case of this article, indicating that being hetro by birth automatically makes one a gay basher, is hog-swallop.
regards...Siggy.
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jul 4, 2007 8:08 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you don't want to be hugged, fine. If you want to be hugged, find a consenting adult. Cool it with the anti-choice rhetoric, or join the appropriate congregation.
My goodness.
Moralist
Fundy
Crusaders.
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Posted by: arthurs-1 on Jul 5, 2007 6:30 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Overall, I think this need that women have to please straight guys goes back to the way women are brought up by their parents. Women are largely taught to enhance themselves with make-up, pretty dresses, stilletoes, long and flowing hair etc etc. This all serves to set them up as eye-candy for straight guys. Men are taught to be practical and achievement-oriented.
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» RE: Women need to take responsibility for the homosexual double standard
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Women need to take responsibility for the homosexual double standard
Posted by: arthurs-1
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Posted by: arthurs-1 on Jul 5, 2007 6:45 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For example, consider the male heterosexual privilege of reserving the right to stare at women and to have affairs with them. Men do this quite often. Women, in turn, exploit this by dressing provocatively and inappropriately in cleavage-revealing dresses and short skirts. The man's privilege is to stare, the woman's is to provide him with the eye-candy. Both get an ego boost from this cultural inequality. Female homosexuality of the "chic" variety serves a similar purpose.
It's also my view that liberalism has led to this cultural inequality. The model for liberalism, in my opinion, is a fully-clothed straight guy standing next to his nearly-naked bisexual female date at a porn awards night.
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» RE: Women and men play their privileges off against each other
Posted by: angryyoungwoman
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Posted by: arthurs-1 on Jul 5, 2007 7:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ibson's studies of male portraits suggest a bygone era where male sexuality was undivided. If you were a man, you were heterosexual, and that was that. Even if you were gay in your private feelings, you suppressed them and got married to a woman.
As male sexuality has become increasingly divided by the rise of the gay rights movement, perhaps straight guys have felt confused and somewhat "under siege", hence their physical recoiling from each other. The answer to breaking down the division without returning to the bygone repressive era is quite simple: we need a bisexual men's movement.
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Posted by: opeluboy on Jul 6, 2007 3:26 PM
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Posted by: lessbread on Jul 6, 2007 4:28 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: cinattra on Jul 7, 2007 8:44 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The downside is that sometimes physical play can get out of hand especially among peers. In the good old days if you got into fight with your best friend when play got too rough once the fight was over you were back friends.
You're not going to see two American straight dudes arms draped over each other unless there is a beer in the other hand or they're praying. That's just culture not homophobia. You want to change that then change tv.
The seat thing is so guys can be guys. Leaning back with the most uncomfortable looking crook in your neck and back on the couch or the movie theatre seat with legs spread open. You can't do that if you're sitting right next to a guy doing the same thing.
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Posted by: ladmeaux on Jul 9, 2007 10:01 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mercury613 on Jul 9, 2007 1:28 PM
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Posted by: diodd on Jul 11, 2007 10:18 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, I think it's sort of dismissive and unhelpful to assign the various distancing customs of straight men to the word "homophobia." I came out several years ago (I'm a guy) and the most surprising thing about the GLBT community from the inside is the degree to which THEY dismiss and put down same-sex intimacy that isn't associated with gay sexuality (or with marriage or exclusive partnership). It would come up with me and my boyfriends on an everyday basis: we would see some straight guys in a bowling alley being jokingly affectionate, and my boyfriends would graphically describe how they must "really" be in the closet and want to have sex with each other. They would respond the same way to any discussion of more expressive customs from other countries like Brazil. And most GLBT authors' discussion of history is equally fixated on "claiming" all same-sex love for the gay movement: authors allege that various figures "were really gay" because of affectionate behavior or flowery letters, without even discussing the fact that straight culture has changed over time and behavior like this was once part of mainstream friendship.
It is as if many people in the GLBT movement want to claim all of same-sex love as "their territory" but they are not actually interested in friendship, despite the fact that it is the most popular form of same-sex love in this country. I'm not saying they think friendship should be more expressive, I'm saying they don't care to discuss it at all, which is why when you join a coming-out support group, the common response to any discussion of a friendship with a straight guy is basically dismissive that any real emotion could exist in such a friendship if no sex is occurring. Of course, not all gay people are like this, some of the best research on changing customs around friendship is also done by LGBT authors (mostly lesbians though). But enough people are like this, and have enough power, that it slants the movement.
I think the straight guys on this comment board have a right to be miffed about being called homophobic, even though I personally prefer to be expressive in friendship myself (like the Brazillians, who cheek-kiss and hold hands). Yes, the distancing rules are arbitrary, but it doesn't mean they don't love their friends, or that they hate gay people. It just means that as long as our society defines people by "sexual orientation," guys who have ambiguous friendships will get in trouble with their girlfriends and wives who think if they aren't "straight enough" they're going to leave them, and their friends may be worried they want to have sex with them. The gay movement promotes the idea that "straight" men are not supposed to be cuddly, and cuddly men must really want to have sex with you, as much or more than anybody else. I wish it didn't, but I'm only one person.
My coming-out experience led me to realize that you can kiss and hold hands all you want and still be emotionally distant (like my ex-boyfriends), or you can just pat each other on the back, and smile, and forgive your friends when they do stupid things, and say sappy things to them in private, and that can have a lot of emotional significance.
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Posted by: Marikken on Jul 13, 2007 3:28 PM
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