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Do Women Enjoy Chocolate More Than Sex?
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Sewell tries therapy, sexy lingerie and chocolate-based lubes. She tunes into Oprah and reads glossy magazine tutorials and books that support the notion that men and women are from different planets. All to no avail. Eventually Joan and Kip reach a resolution of sorts: sex is a "slog" for her, so Kip will have to make do with the occasional strip show or hand job. She says her much lower libido is "within the normal curve for a woman" due largely to biological gender differences. Yet Sewell ignores a fascinating, growing pile of modern scientific studies disputing the often-repeated stats about a gender libido gap, and the traditional theory that biology drives sexuality, which some researchers claim pathologizes women's sexuality.
The media binge over this slim work of 1950s-style confection is similarly biased towards the superficial sugar-spice model. The Atlantic Monthly dedicated a lot of ink to the topic in its February issue, including an interview with Sewell sporting the headline: "the politically incorrect reality that most married women just aren't that into sex." The National Post also interviewed Sewell, who continued to flog the notion that when women are compared to women, "our libidos are not that low, they are pretty much in a normal range. But are they much lower than men's? Yes."
Writer Dan Savage jumped into the fray with a recent syndicated column, repeating Sewell's claim that women have "naturally lower sex drives" thanks to hormonal and biological differences. "There's no such thing as a woman who wants sex constantly. They don't exist -- never did," writes Savage who cheekily relinquishes heterosexual men from the tyranny of housework, childcare and talking to their partners because "she still won't want to fuck you." The column generated so many letters from women who like sex that he continued the discussion the following week and started a "lusty ladies" link.
Sex on the brain
The debate about how to define healthy or "normal" libido has been heating up over the past decade as doctors, neuroscientists, sociologists, pollsters and pharmaceutical companies gather data, study brains and genitals during orgasm and poll citizens about their lives between the sheets. One often-repeated statistic, based on a 1999 U.S. study, found that approximately 40 per cent of women experience sexual problems. Yet, as some researchers have pointed out, the lead author of the study was a consultant for Pfizer, the makers of Viagra. A more recent Yale study found that almost half of the 56 women studied who had experienced "female sexual dysfunction," (FSD) "had decreased sensation in the clitoris." The researchers underlined "the possibility of a neurological cause for the dysfunction."
It might seem like a no-brainer that decreased genital sensations will adversely affect sexual functioning, but sexuality is a very complex and nuanced thing indeed. Might it not be a huge (profit-driven) leap to say the cause is primarily neurologically based? A group of scientists, doctors and health advocates think so, and have banded together to publish an educational website with a manifesto calling FSD "a new medical myth" and challenging sexual "disease-mongering" promoted in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Disorders (DSM), known as the psychiatric bible.
The current DSM (DSM-IV) is an ever-expanding doorstopper of a clinical book used to diagnose and codify psychiatric "disorders" ranging from childhood "oppositional defiant disorder" to "anxiety disorder not otherwise specified." "Female sexual disorders" include "hypoactive sexual desire disorder," defined by a "persistently or recurrently deficient (or absent) sexual fantasies and desire for sexual activity"; and "female sexual arousal disorder": a "persistent or recurrent inability to attain, or to maintain until completion of the sexual activity, an adequate lubrication-swelling response of sexual excitement."
DSM critics think that the manual pathologizes a wide range of human behaviours and allows a select group of clinicians (mostly men, a number with ties to pharmacorps) to subjectively standardize behaviour. A 2003 Kinsey Institute study found that over 34 per cent of women polled "reported marked distress about their sexual relationship," but the authors added that, "the predictors of distress about sex did not fit well with the DSM-IV criteria."
"Women's sexual motivation is far more complex than simply the presence or absence of sexual desire," writes Dr. Rosemary Basson of the B.C. Centre for Sexual Medicine in an intriguing 2005 Canadian Medical Association Journal paper. Diagnostic categories reflect a genitally focused model of sexual function, she says, while in the real world, "women describe overlapping phases of sexual response that blend the responses of mind and body." So, many facets of women's sexual function don't jive with the diagnostic model.
Basson and other researchers have found that women who consider themselves sexually healthy (known in clinical studies as the control group) don't necessarily tend to have "spontaneous" desires or fantasies before they engage in sex. And women who report sexual dysfunction have been found to experience "significant" physiological genital responses when they're hooked up to a photoplethysmograph to watch erotic videos, yet only control volunteers reported feeling sexual aroused.
Basson also notes studies with findings that when the emotional intimacy with the partner is stronger, women have "less distress" around sex. And findings that "women with desire disorder had self-esteem that was weak or even fragile, emotional instability, anxiety and neuroticism." She adds that sexual arousal and orgasm, especially in a partner's presence, require a certain degree of vulnerability, which is impossible for some women who "cannot tolerate feelings of loss of control generally, and loss of control specifically of their body's reactions."
Take a pill
Basson also mentions the off-label use of antidepressants to treat sexual disorders, and the fact that these drugs commonly cause sexual problems in women and men. Hormones, like testosterone, can also increase a woman's sexual arousal, but studies have also found that "environmental changes" also do the trick, including a new partner.
Basson contends that the reported prevalence of "hypoactive sexual disorder" in women of around 30 to 40 per cent may be wrong and misleading. She expects the numbers of women diagnosed to decline "when (or if) it becomes widely known that lack of spontaneous or initial desire" does not by itself mean there's a sexual disorder.
Sewell herself briefly argues against the medicalization of women's sexuality and comes to reject the notion that she's abnormal. This is where her story could get interesting and educational for others, particularly considering the controversies in the medical field. But Sewell prefers the sugar-coated quick-fix Cosmo-friendly stuff, and when these tactics fail to rev up her libido, she falls back on the biology argument.
Even with chocolate sprinklers, it's hard for me to swallow the idea that Sewell is actually chucking the baggage around perceptions of normalcy when she spends so much time critiquing the behaviours of other women, from Pamela Anderson to fictional characters in Sex and the City. In Atlantic Monthly she admits feeling "envy for genuinely lusty women," yet dismisses sexually expressive women as "pandering to men"; in Sewell's books they're merely dressing up a burning desire for "security" which she believes "overrides" women's "sexual urge."
Eat or be eaten
It's also hard to believe Sewell really dedicated herself to the difficult task of dissecting the potential multitude of reasons for her low sex drive when she proudly dismisses the idea that sex can be "spiritual" or loving as a "sexpert" devised joke. Then there's her view on cunnilingus, expressed to Atlantic Monthly: "I just don't like to see someone's head between my legs. Now some people would say that's because I think it's dirty down there, or something like that...I actually think a person's mouth is a lot germier than my vagina. And they're lapping around. I think of all the effort my husband is putting into it, and that just kills me."
Perhaps Sewell's league of talk therapists dared not go into this below-the-belt territory. Sewell is brave for trotting out her neuroticisms, but it starts to smell of narcissistic navel-gazing when she prefers not to dwell too long on the deeper meanings and instead buys into the idea that women who have sex regularly are fakers merely "simulating lust," "taking it and faking it," and buying into Girls Gone Wild pubescent male fantasies, and even pro-sex feminist dogma about sexual empowerment. Sewell says her so-called relationship-compromise-happy-ending is empowering: Kip gets a taste of porn here and there (as if that makes up for a real relationship; will she foot the bill if he becomes cyberporn addicted?), the occasional blowjob and even sex once in a blue moon, but only on "her terms." Yet sexual intimacy requires vulnerability, trust and a bit of a give and take on control. Perhaps reaching such a point is to Sewell, like sex, too much of a "slog."
Chocolate, on the other hand, doesn't talk back, fart like blue-balled Kip or necessitate much hand-to-mouth exertion. It's also highly addictive, contains a range of powerful chemicals including cannabinoid-like fatty acids and phenylethylamine (known as the "love drug"), and stimulates the brain's reward system in much the same way as cocaine, heroin, sex and even the anticipation of revenge.
The thrill of chocolate is so bittersweet, according to one 2003 study, that 14 per cent of U.S. college women feel embarrassed when they purchase a chocolate bar. Another chocolate versus apple study found that women who eat chocolate experience a more intense joy, followed by guilt, making cocoa the new forbidden fruit. Yesterday's horny male teens with their brown-bagged porn mags have been trumped on the shame-o-metre by girls packing Mars Bars home to the bedside table.
Men can now get their porn fix on the Net anyway. A study found U.S. college students are more likely to be addicted to the Net (and alcohol, cigs, gambling and TV) while young women troll for -- you guessed it, a chocolate fix.
Numerous studies have found that women are more likely to seek out sweet foods for comfort. (Men typically crave a savoury hot meal according to one study.) Yet cultural gender divides exist, according to a study comparing American and Spanish chocoholics. Researchers discovered a large gender difference among Americans but not Spaniards, suggesting "that American culture encourages disproportionately more chocolate cravings among females than males."
Feast or famine
Eating disorders research has also implicated higher opioid-like responses, particularly with chocolate, in bulimics and obese women than healthy controls, solidifying the neurochemically addictive quality of chocolate.
"We now talk about being bad on the weekend as a ménage à trois with a bucket of Ben and Jerry's," says Dr. Ellen Domm, repeating a quote by Jean Kilbourne, an outspoken critic of the effects of advertising and media on women. "Food is sinful in the way sex used to be," adds Domm, a teacher at Capilano College and a clinical psychologist specializing in eating disorders.
"Body image and sexuality are all tied up together and there's a strong correlation between sexual and eating disorders," Domm says, adding that multiple causes come into play with both disorders, including mixed media messages.
"Young women especially are being told they have to be physically perfect, sexy and also comfortable with sex. Most of the women I see don't even try to have intimate relationships. Food, in some ways, is a better lover. It's comforting, pleasurable and distracting. Until the inevitable guilt. It's a very complicated cycle," Domm says, adding that the gender gap in eating disorders is shrinking since "more and more men are sold this idea of perfection and feeling just as insecure."
Let's eat chocolate and have sex
I live with a lover of chocolate who likes a fix at least twice a week. But he'd pick sex over chocolate, no question, even if tempted with a melting hot fudge brownie sundae. He thought the question was a bit stupid anyway: "Why can't I have a bit of both?" Given the skyrocketing obesity rates (not to mention the war on drugs, cigarettes, fatty foods and sex), this everything-in-moderation argument seems increasingly unpopular in North America. A global study on attitudes to food found that Americans were both the least likely to associate food with pleasure and the least likely to think their diets were healthy. The authors warned that women from all other countries were more likely to adapt to American patterns than their male counterparts.
Global surveys on sexuality show interesting correlations between these cultural dietary patterns and sexual satisfaction. The Global Sex Satisfaction Study found that in the U.S. only 28 per cent of women and 37 per cent of men said "sex is important"; only New Zealanders ranked lower among gender-egalitarian cultures. Durex's Global Sex Survey 2006 found that Americans and Canadians were at least twice as likely to say "my sex life is monotonous" and "I do not have a high sex drive" as Spaniards and Portuguese. Yet we North Americans also topped the list for wishing we had more sex. Stranger still, Americans were the most likely to contend, "I'm happy with my sex life."
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Posted by: bookie on Mar 29, 2007 12:24 AM
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Mar 29, 2007 12:29 AM
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I'll take great sex over great chocolate any day.
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» Well, that might be part of the problem...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Well, that might be part of the problem...
Posted by: mizkaye
» I wish it were that simple...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Well, that might be part of the problem...
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Well, that might be part of the problem...
Posted by: Afban
» RE: Great Mystery
Posted by: NoPCZone
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Posted by: Rune on Mar 29, 2007 12:41 AM
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» RE: Just another sign of unhealthy lifestyles and relationships
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Just another sign of unhealthy lifestyles and relationships
Posted by: jontv
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Posted by: terradea on Mar 29, 2007 2:47 AM
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I'm not going to comment on the fact that you mention "germy" when talking about sex, or the fact that you criticize women with "seemingly" strong libidos as "pandering to men" or using lust to hide their true desire for security, but I will say this: sexual desire defines the human-ness of people, women and men.
No, it's not okay, Ms. Sewell. You are losing your human-ness. You are becoming a drone, an automaton without a soul. Sex and the love of sex is the path to enlightenment, and you should be searching for your "trigger" instead of rejoicing in your loss.
If society, as a whole, accepts the reduction or elimination of sexual desire as "normal" or "preferable" or even "something which must be controlled," then society is actually working against itself and tumbling into a spiritless clump of working, eating, consuming cogs. Sex and sexual desire are the sparks that keep this human engine running. A quick glance at the proponents of abstinence and sex control (Bush, Dobson, Falwell, Phyllis Schlaffly) reveal arrogant, hateful, anti-human crusaders who think nothing of killing other humans for any "just" cause.
If everyone takes the stance that a low libido is ok, we are doomed. Maybe that's our problem today.
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» RE: Sexual Desire Suggests a Human Spirit
Posted by: lm
» RE: Sexual Desire Suggests a Human Spirit
Posted by: kelt65
» RE: Sexual Desire Suggests a Human Spirit
Posted by: tweedster
» RE: Sexual Desire Suggests a Human Spirit
Posted by: peterb
» RE: Sexual Desire Suggests a Human Spirit **EXCEPT that all the animals have it too**
Posted by: maribelle
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Posted by: brer on Mar 29, 2007 4:42 AM
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A GREAT BOOK.
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» RE: petunia
Posted by: rivka_m
» RE: petunia
Posted by: RosieRivetor
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Posted by: rusty5 on Mar 29, 2007 5:19 AM
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I would like to suggest that instead of cyberporn for Mr. Sewell that he try a little chocolate on the stick. Perhaps this will induce Ms. Sewell into a feeding frenzy?
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» RE: ich and shallow
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: ich and shallow
Posted by: Eat Politicians
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Mar 29, 2007 5:35 AM
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Who wants to be trapped in a union with a partner who doesn't enjoy being close to you and doesn't give a crap about your needs.
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» Agree completely
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Agree completely
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Agree completely
Posted by: tap17x
» RE: No surprise
Posted by: mizkaye
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Posted by: aislinnluv on Mar 29, 2007 5:38 AM
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» RE: isn't it peculiar?
Posted by: mizkaye
» lets be clear about mainstream sex imagery...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» There is NOTHING natural about the way we live.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: Beck on Mar 29, 2007 6:24 AM
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I'm sure there are women who don't want any, just like there are men who don't, but the success of Viagra and Cialis makes me doubt that women are the underfunctioning ones.
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» Nicely said Beck. I don't miss men at all
Posted by: Veronique
» Doubt they miss you much either Ms. Frumpy . . .
Posted by: MAD
» RE: Doubt they miss you much either Ms. Frumpy . . .
Posted by: fork
» A few hundred years ago things were very different...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: A few hundred years ago things were very different...
Posted by: Annarisse
» Well said. nm
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: A few hundred years ago things were very different...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: A few hundred years ago things were very different...
Posted by: Annarisse
» RE: A few hundred years ago things were very different...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Viagra does not "boost" libido, doofus
Posted by: MAD
» Relax - Female 'Viagra' to be released next week in UK
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Mar 29, 2007 6:53 AM
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I can relieve myself sexually in every way. And most of the time, I enjoy having sex with my man. But when he gives me a massage (which is often) and works out the knots in my stressed-out middle aged aching body...that is love.
Anyone can bump uglies but the man who massages his woman...
now that's even better than chocolate.
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» RE: I love sex but....give me a massage instead...any day
Posted by: mizkaye
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Posted by: gjames on Mar 29, 2007 7:07 AM
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2 - polyamory is the way for me. Share pleasure.
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Posted by: nopuppy on Mar 29, 2007 7:10 AM
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» RE: Who Cares?!?!?
Posted by: mizkaye
» RE: Who Cares?!?!?
Posted by: gjames
» RE: Who Cares?!?!?
Posted by: xconservative
» RE: Who Cares?!?!?
Posted by: tap17x
» true, so true
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: secretchief on Mar 29, 2007 7:18 AM
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I have known women whose sex drive put mine to shame as well as women who could not let go of their self-consciousness, to a point where they had never reached an orgasm.
Why is it so hard to admit that each person is different? If I meet a woman and it turns out she has no libido, I might react in many different ways, but one thing I will never do is try and make her feel abnormal and lacking in any way.
Every man is different, and so is every woman. I refuse to buy into the idea that there is one archetype for men, one for women and that any person who does not fit the archetype should be fixed. I also refuse to put myself in a state of minority by accepting general analyses and applying them directly to my life, or by accepting a universal cure that is not at all tailored to my real situation. People need to act more responsibly and stop exclusively looking up to "authority".
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» RE: Normalcy
Posted by: henderson
» RE: Normalcy
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Normalcy
Posted by: secretchief
» RE: Normalcy
Posted by: jontv
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Posted by: mizkaye on Mar 29, 2007 7:27 AM
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Posted by: MartianBachelor on Mar 29, 2007 8:16 AM
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There's her problem right there.
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» RE: "She tunes into Oprah..."
Posted by: morticia
» Shhhhh!
Posted by: Rune
» RE: "She tunes into Oprah..."
Posted by: fork
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Posted by: Guy on Mar 29, 2007 8:16 AM
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I think her approach is very self-centered and selfish and if I were her husband, I'd be embarrassed as hell that she put this all out in public.
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» RE: On Her Terms
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: On Her Terms
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: On Her Terms
Posted by: mviscid
» RE: Agreed
Posted by: tlCampbell
» RE: Agreed
Posted by: Guy
» RE: On Her Terms
Posted by: jontv
» RE: On Her Terms
Posted by: charlieparisek
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Posted by: just john on Mar 29, 2007 8:42 AM
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I figure there are big bucks to be had with an ad campaign similar to the anti-tobacco ads*, leading to a total ban and vigorous ban-enforcement strategies.
OUTLAW CHOCOLATE! BUILD MORE PRISONS! MAKE MORE MONEY!
(* Yeah, I think tobacco is more harmful than chocolate.)
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» RE: The Government's response is obvious ...
Posted by: Guy
» RE: The Government's response is obvious ...
Posted by: aussidawg
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Posted by: mviscid on Mar 29, 2007 9:08 AM
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Years ago I joined a punkrawk feminist message board for young women. First thread I visited was about sex (just that kind of gal :D). OMG! Every other post was about the poster's sexless marriage/LTR. Interspersed among those were other posts telling her, "oh yes honey, you're completely right and NORMAL for not wanting to screw your mate. People act like sex is normal but it's really not." !!! Surreal, y'all. It came out later - many of these women had been assaulted or abused earlier in life. But not all.
I think it sucks to live without passion and sex but I think it sick, the bad sick, to rationalize that dispassion is the human norm. Me, my sex drive figures big in my well-being. Even if I have to hunger a few days til relations, the very experience of lust is life-affirming. Fire in the belly. Steam in my stride. Hello world, I'm your wild grrl!
Whew. Springtime, y'all. Ahem.
But I think it takes all kinds. And we've a shortage of intimate, lovin', lusty kinds. I think our society's 'go it alone, by yer own boostraps' excuse for not caring for each other--it doesn't help.
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» RE: Free your crotch and your mind will follow
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Free your crotch and your mind will follow
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Free your crotch and your mind will follow
Posted by: mizkaye
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Posted by: RedJuly on Mar 29, 2007 9:55 AM
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Posted by: billjv on Mar 29, 2007 10:07 AM
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» RE: Discouraging
Posted by: Guy
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Posted by: ateo on Mar 29, 2007 10:12 AM
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Only something like 30% of American men claimed to prefer virtually anything over sex.
So, score one for the Americans!
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Posted by: athamandia on Mar 29, 2007 10:18 AM
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» RE: her way or the highway
Posted by: aussidawg
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Posted by: Jharyn on Mar 29, 2007 10:26 AM
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Embrace your sexuality! Stop listening to these unhappy fools who have allowed themselves to become robots instead of human beings.
Chocolate over sex? Go ahead honey. Enjoy your lonely piece of chocolate.
Only someone from the USA could come up with this crap!
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Posted by: lindalee on Mar 29, 2007 10:39 AM
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My older sisters, in the same boat as myself, are the complete opposite.
Although I may not agree with this woman completely (nor do I have the need to read the book), at least she's making some women feel better that they aren't in the mood or don't like certain things. Although I don't see how disliking oral sex is possible, there are plenty of women who don't like it but enjoy everything else about sex.
I'll say it again, women are all different. and we can't know what's in store as we age.
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» That's one of the problems with the book
Posted by: xconservative
» Well, same old problem with some in feminism...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Menopause really messes with a woman's libido. m.
Posted by: lwbaby
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Posted by: Russ Wellen on Mar 29, 2007 11:23 AM
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Worse than being rejected is when a woman consents to making love, but is so perfunctory about it the man thinks he's raping her.
He soon stops approaching her because:
1. He doesn't want to be rejected and feel like he's unloved.
2. He doesn't want to feel like he's raping her.
It's better to stop approaching her for sex. Then he can:
a. Cling to the illusion that some wisps of love remain.
b. Feel self-respect about not coercing her.
What's the answer then? I mean something beyond porn. A mistress system like in France or something?
Anybody have any ideas?
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» RE: Men Need Sex to Feel Loved
Posted by: morticia
» Pretty Good Answer
Posted by: Russ Wellen
» RE: Pretty Good Answer
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Pretty Good Answer
Posted by: PirateJesus
» Russ Wellen Needs Sex To Feel Loved
Posted by: davelwhite
» FUCK A DUCK...
Posted by: charlieparisek
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Posted by: Blue Heron on Mar 29, 2007 11:27 AM
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Posted by: davelwhite on Mar 29, 2007 11:27 AM
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If Alternet's author is interested in understanding this range of diversity, I would suggest for her to interview the founder of www.asexuality.org, David Jay. He can fill her in on how some people are questioning the DSM's fixation on "you have to have a moderate to high libido to be normal" from a left-wing, even queer-radical perspective. He can also fill her in on the gender breakup of the thousands of members of his site: roughly fifty-fifty. Hmmm.
Alternet's author and some posters have touched on spiritual aspects (one of them referring to Sewell as "having no soul"). Is sexuality spritual? Why do we have trouble answering this with "it can be"? Receiving Eucharist can be spiritual-- but only if you're Christian, typically. Dancing naked around a bonfire on Midsummer's Eve can too-- if you're Wiccan. Sexuality is one way to express emotional and spiritual connection to another person. It is not the only way. In particular, history and anthropology reveal a variety of intense nonsexual relationships in other cultures, frequently celebrated with explicit religious ceremony. So the currently-very-popular belief that sex is special somehow, is not scientific, just a very popular faith-based belief.
Too many people—including not only right-wingers with their Sacred Institution of Marriage but also left-wingers with their notions of sacred sexuality—view their attitudes about sexuality the way Evangelicals view religion, namely: “my way is the one true way.” Like Evangelicals who want to “bring Catholics to Christ,” they are tone-deaf to the fact that the people who are not practicing their form of sacred connection to other humans are probably practicing other forms instead. And like Puritans who dismiss the faiths of Native Americans as superstition, they are missing out on spiritual connections themselves, although they are loath to admit it.
Those people in conventional sexual relationships who are the most supportive of low-libido people tend to share with us a bit of the spiritual experience of connection that you can have with close friends that doesn’t depend on gender or sexuality or orientation; meanwhile, those who dismiss us tend to be the ones who have rigid notions about friendship being incomparably less significant than romance, who drift apart from friends after marriage, who always say “let’s have lunch” but never do it. They withhold emotionally from friends too. No wonder they don’t experience or understand spiritual connections that aren’t dependent on gender or sex! Meanwhile, for those of us who have had a really intense spiritual experience of connection in a nonsexual relationship, having sex, especially under all the pressure of these sexual fundamentalists who insist it’s some sort of requirement for mental health, starts to feel like being forced to attend someone else’s church: everything that has had sacred meaning for you is dismissed, while other people’s sacred is constantly being shoved down your throat. Without this attitude, I would like sex more than I do now, although, to be honest, a backrub or sharing a bit of chocolate with my best friend would still take precedence.
Dave
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Posted by: pbutler on Mar 29, 2007 11:52 AM
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Yet we in the US continue to buy more and more of our meals from worse and worse fast-food joints, "instant-meal" manufacturers, etc.
Our physical environment is deteriorating, our relationships are ever-more shallow and strained, our cities are noisy stress factories, our clothing is uncomfortable, our entertainment is awful, our social structures are warped and increasingly antagonistic, our schools...[shudder]...
Let's face it, folks: turning our culture over to the corporations and our communications to advertising has been a complete failure.
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» Could be because so many have not actually had any really good food. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: dwatkins9 on Mar 29, 2007 11:58 AM
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» RE: "gender egalitarian cultures"
Posted by: dwatkins9
» RE: "gender egalitarian cultures"
Posted by: mviscid
» RE: "gender egalitarian cultures"
Posted by: morticia
» RE: "gender egalitarian cultures"
Posted by: dwatkins9
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Posted by: Wassermann on Mar 29, 2007 3:13 PM
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Trust me: various body parts smeared or covered with chocolate syrup taste EVEN BETTER. And after a while the added stickiness of all the dried or drying chocolate makes the sex even hotter!
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Posted by: form516 on Mar 29, 2007 5:24 PM
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I had a horrendous peri-menopausal period that lasted quite some time, I thought that I would never want sex again. It was like that asexual period pre-teens have. I had no use for it. But about a year and a half ago my symptoms started clearing out and boy am I ever glad I did not have it sewn up or something! ( Believe me, I hated the idea of sex so much for awhile that I was capable of anything!)
Well, I'm financially secure so, I guess I can't explain the fact that I have been able to really enjoy my sexuality- now that I'm "over the hill" I'm loving it.
But when you think about it, a lot of human characteristics ebb and flow like that...
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» RE: Sexual desire can be cyclical...
Posted by: DaBear
» Surely there's both an age and a generational factor that comes into play.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: charlieparisek on Mar 29, 2007 6:18 PM
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It is one thing to be an understanding husband. It is an entirely different matter to supress a huge part of one's being to a selfish and self-centered partner; especially so when that partner chooses to go hugely public with marital details that most couples would find embarrassing.
At the very least Kip should find himself a suitable sex partner outside of the marriage. Any feelings of guilt could be salved with a nice box of Godiva.
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» RE: HAND JOBS FOR KIP
Posted by: Guy
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Mar 29, 2007 7:28 PM
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Did its inventor (a man, no doubt) curse his brethren or bless womankind?
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» RE: I have to wonder...
Posted by: Guy
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Posted by: tap17x on Mar 29, 2007 9:23 PM
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Posted by: morticia on Mar 29, 2007 9:26 PM
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Posted by: tap17x on Mar 29, 2007 9:32 PM
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Posted by: Sherry M. on Mar 29, 2007 10:27 PM
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Why doesn't this article mention the importance of foreplay for women? I'll bet more than half our libido problems would be solved if more men weren't so clueless, or careless, about foreplay. Gratitude certainly does enhance MY libido.....
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» RE: Men are like chocolate....
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» Or better yet...
Posted by: xconservative
» This could land me in jail, but....
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Men are like chocolate....
Posted by: Guy
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Posted by: peterb on Mar 31, 2007 11:58 PM
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» RE: The big question
Posted by: Guy
» RE: The big question
Posted by: morticia
» RE: The big question
Posted by: Guy
» RE: The big question
Posted by: morticia
» RE: The big question
Posted by: Guy
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 1, 2007 12:40 PM
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The rules around marriage are based on the idea that it is permanent in all but the rarest of cases. Well today more than half of all marriages fail yet as far as the courts are concerned the rules for a marriage that lasted 1 year are the same as for one that lasted 20 years.
Marriage is dead.
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Posted by: form516 on Apr 3, 2007 3:00 PM
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(I keep pretending just like everyone else that this is not the case..don't worry)
Trap 'em while you are young, girls! Theres a lot in it for you.
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Posted by: bookie on Mar 29, 2007 12:24 AM
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Mar 29, 2007 12:29 AM
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I'll take great sex over great chocolate any day.
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» Well, that might be part of the problem...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Well, that might be part of the problem...
Posted by: mizkaye
» I wish it were that simple...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Well, that might be part of the problem...
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Well, that might be part of the problem...
Posted by: Afban
» RE: Great Mystery
Posted by: NoPCZone
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Posted by: Rune on Mar 29, 2007 12:41 AM
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» RE: Just another sign of unhealthy lifestyles and relationships
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Just another sign of unhealthy lifestyles and relationships
Posted by: jontv
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Posted by: terradea on Mar 29, 2007 2:47 AM
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I'm not going to comment on the fact that you mention "germy" when talking about sex, or the fact that you criticize women with "seemingly" strong libidos as "pandering to men" or using lust to hide their true desire for security, but I will say this: sexual desire defines the human-ness of people, women and men.
No, it's not okay, Ms. Sewell. You are losing your human-ness. You are becoming a drone, an automaton without a soul. Sex and the love of sex is the path to enlightenment, and you should be searching for your "trigger" instead of rejoicing in your loss.
If society, as a whole, accepts the reduction or elimination of sexual desire as "normal" or "preferable" or even "something which must be controlled," then society is actually working against itself and tumbling into a spiritless clump of working, eating, consuming cogs. Sex and sexual desire are the sparks that keep this human engine running. A quick glance at the proponents of abstinence and sex control (Bush, Dobson, Falwell, Phyllis Schlaffly) reveal arrogant, hateful, anti-human crusaders who think nothing of killing other humans for any "just" cause.
If everyone takes the stance that a low libido is ok, we are doomed. Maybe that's our problem today.
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» RE: Sexual Desire Suggests a Human Spirit
Posted by: lm
» RE: Sexual Desire Suggests a Human Spirit
Posted by: kelt65
» RE: Sexual Desire Suggests a Human Spirit
Posted by: tweedster
» RE: Sexual Desire Suggests a Human Spirit
Posted by: peterb
» RE: Sexual Desire Suggests a Human Spirit **EXCEPT that all the animals have it too**
Posted by: maribelle
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Posted by: brer on Mar 29, 2007 4:42 AM
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A GREAT BOOK.
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» RE: petunia
Posted by: rivka_m
» RE: petunia
Posted by: RosieRivetor
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Posted by: rusty5 on Mar 29, 2007 5:19 AM
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I would like to suggest that instead of cyberporn for Mr. Sewell that he try a little chocolate on the stick. Perhaps this will induce Ms. Sewell into a feeding frenzy?
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» RE: ich and shallow
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: ich and shallow
Posted by: Eat Politicians
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Mar 29, 2007 5:35 AM
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Who wants to be trapped in a union with a partner who doesn't enjoy being close to you and doesn't give a crap about your needs.
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» Agree completely
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Agree completely
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Agree completely
Posted by: tap17x
» RE: No surprise
Posted by: mizkaye
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Posted by: aislinnluv on Mar 29, 2007 5:38 AM
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» RE: isn't it peculiar?
Posted by: mizkaye
» lets be clear about mainstream sex imagery...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» There is NOTHING natural about the way we live.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: Beck on Mar 29, 2007 6:24 AM
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I'm sure there are women who don't want any, just like there are men who don't, but the success of Viagra and Cialis makes me doubt that women are the underfunctioning ones.
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» Nicely said Beck. I don't miss men at all
Posted by: Veronique
» Doubt they miss you much either Ms. Frumpy . . .
Posted by: MAD
» RE: Doubt they miss you much either Ms. Frumpy . . .
Posted by: fork
» A few hundred years ago things were very different...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: A few hundred years ago things were very different...
Posted by: Annarisse
» Well said. nm
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: A few hundred years ago things were very different...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: A few hundred years ago things were very different...
Posted by: Annarisse
» RE: A few hundred years ago things were very different...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Viagra does not "boost" libido, doofus
Posted by: MAD
» Relax - Female 'Viagra' to be released next week in UK
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Mar 29, 2007 6:53 AM
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I can relieve myself sexually in every way. And most of the time, I enjoy having sex with my man. But when he gives me a massage (which is often) and works out the knots in my stressed-out middle aged aching body...that is love.
Anyone can bump uglies but the man who massages his woman...
now that's even better than chocolate.
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» RE: I love sex but....give me a massage instead...any day
Posted by: mizkaye
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Posted by: gjames on Mar 29, 2007 7:07 AM
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2 - polyamory is the way for me. Share pleasure.
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Posted by: nopuppy on Mar 29, 2007 7:10 AM
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» RE: Who Cares?!?!?
Posted by: mizkaye
» RE: Who Cares?!?!?
Posted by: gjames
» RE: Who Cares?!?!?
Posted by: xconservative
» RE: Who Cares?!?!?
Posted by: tap17x
» true, so true
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: secretchief on Mar 29, 2007 7:18 AM
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I have known women whose sex drive put mine to shame as well as women who could not let go of their self-consciousness, to a point where they had never reached an orgasm.
Why is it so hard to admit that each person is different? If I meet a woman and it turns out she has no libido, I might react in many different ways, but one thing I will never do is try and make her feel abnormal and lacking in any way.
Every man is different, and so is every woman. I refuse to buy into the idea that there is one archetype for men, one for women and that any person who does not fit the archetype should be fixed. I also refuse to put myself in a state of minority by accepting general analyses and applying them directly to my life, or by accepting a universal cure that is not at all tailored to my real situation. People need to act more responsibly and stop exclusively looking up to "authority".
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» RE: Normalcy
Posted by: henderson
» RE: Normalcy
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Normalcy
Posted by: secretchief
» RE: Normalcy
Posted by: jontv
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Posted by: mizkaye on Mar 29, 2007 7:27 AM
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Posted by: MartianBachelor on Mar 29, 2007 8:16 AM
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There's her problem right there.
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» RE: "She tunes into Oprah..."
Posted by: morticia
» Shhhhh!
Posted by: Rune
» RE: "She tunes into Oprah..."
Posted by: fork
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Posted by: Guy on Mar 29, 2007 8:16 AM
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I think her approach is very self-centered and selfish and if I were her husband, I'd be embarrassed as hell that she put this all out in public.
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» RE: On Her Terms
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: On Her Terms
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: On Her Terms
Posted by: mviscid
» RE: Agreed
Posted by: tlCampbell
» RE: Agreed
Posted by: Guy
» RE: On Her Terms
Posted by: jontv
» RE: On Her Terms
Posted by: charlieparisek
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Posted by: just john on Mar 29, 2007 8:42 AM
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I figure there are big bucks to be had with an ad campaign similar to the anti-tobacco ads*, leading to a total ban and vigorous ban-enforcement strategies.
OUTLAW CHOCOLATE! BUILD MORE PRISONS! MAKE MORE MONEY!
(* Yeah, I think tobacco is more harmful than chocolate.)
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» RE: The Government's response is obvious ...
Posted by: Guy
» RE: The Government's response is obvious ...
Posted by: aussidawg
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Posted by: mviscid on Mar 29, 2007 9:08 AM
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Years ago I joined a punkrawk feminist message board for young women. First thread I visited was about sex (just that kind of gal :D). OMG! Every other post was about the poster's sexless marriage/LTR. Interspersed among those were other posts telling her, "oh yes honey, you're completely right and NORMAL for not wanting to screw your mate. People act like sex is normal but it's really not." !!! Surreal, y'all. It came out later - many of these women had been assaulted or abused earlier in life. But not all.
I think it sucks to live without passion and sex but I think it sick, the bad sick, to rationalize that dispassion is the human norm. Me, my sex drive figures big in my well-being. Even if I have to hunger a few days til relations, the very experience of lust is life-affirming. Fire in the belly. Steam in my stride. Hello world, I'm your wild grrl!
Whew. Springtime, y'all. Ahem.
But I think it takes all kinds. And we've a shortage of intimate, lovin', lusty kinds. I think our society's 'go it alone, by yer own boostraps' excuse for not caring for each other--it doesn't help.
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» RE: Free your crotch and your mind will follow
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Free your crotch and your mind will follow
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Free your crotch and your mind will follow
Posted by: mizkaye
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Posted by: RedJuly on Mar 29, 2007 9:55 AM
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Posted by: billjv on Mar 29, 2007 10:07 AM
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» RE: Discouraging
Posted by: Guy
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Posted by: ateo on Mar 29, 2007 10:12 AM
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Only something like 30% of American men claimed to prefer virtually anything over sex.
So, score one for the Americans!
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Posted by: athamandia on Mar 29, 2007 10:18 AM
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» RE: her way or the highway
Posted by: aussidawg
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Posted by: Jharyn on Mar 29, 2007 10:26 AM
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Embrace your sexuality! Stop listening to these unhappy fools who have allowed themselves to become robots instead of human beings.
Chocolate over sex? Go ahead honey. Enjoy your lonely piece of chocolate.
Only someone from the USA could come up with this crap!
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Posted by: lindalee on Mar 29, 2007 10:39 AM
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My older sisters, in the same boat as myself, are the complete opposite.
Although I may not agree with this woman completely (nor do I have the need to read the book), at least she's making some women feel better that they aren't in the mood or don't like certain things. Although I don't see how disliking oral sex is possible, there are plenty of women who don't like it but enjoy everything else about sex.
I'll say it again, women are all different. and we can't know what's in store as we age.
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» That's one of the problems with the book
Posted by: xconservative
» Well, same old problem with some in feminism...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Menopause really messes with a woman's libido. m.
Posted by: lwbaby
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Posted by: Russ Wellen on Mar 29, 2007 11:23 AM
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Worse than being rejected is when a woman consents to making love, but is so perfunctory about it the man thinks he's raping her.
He soon stops approaching her because:
1. He doesn't want to be rejected and feel like he's unloved.
2. He doesn't want to feel like he's raping her.
It's better to stop approaching her for sex. Then he can:
a. Cling to the illusion that some wisps of love remain.
b. Feel self-respect about not coercing her.
What's the answer then? I mean something beyond porn. A mistress system like in France or something?
Anybody have any ideas?
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» RE: Men Need Sex to Feel Loved
Posted by: morticia
» Pretty Good Answer
Posted by: Russ Wellen
» RE: Pretty Good Answer
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Pretty Good Answer
Posted by: PirateJesus
» Russ Wellen Needs Sex To Feel Loved
Posted by: davelwhite
» FUCK A DUCK...
Posted by: charlieparisek
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Posted by: Blue Heron on Mar 29, 2007 11:27 AM
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Posted by: davelwhite on Mar 29, 2007 11:27 AM
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If Alternet's author is interested in understanding this range of diversity, I would suggest for her to interview the founder of www.asexuality.org, David Jay. He can fill her in on how some people are questioning the DSM's fixation on "you have to have a moderate to high libido to be normal" from a left-wing, even queer-radical perspective. He can also fill her in on the gender breakup of the thousands of members of his site: roughly fifty-fifty. Hmmm.
Alternet's author and some posters have touched on spiritual aspects (one of them referring to Sewell as "having no soul"). Is sexuality spritual? Why do we have trouble answering this with "it can be"? Receiving Eucharist can be spiritual-- but only if you're Christian, typically. Dancing naked around a bonfire on Midsummer's Eve can too-- if you're Wiccan. Sexuality is one way to express emotional and spiritual connection to another person. It is not the only way. In particular, history and anthropology reveal a variety of intense nonsexual relationships in other cultures, frequently celebrated with explicit religious ceremony. So the currently-very-popular belief that sex is special somehow, is not scientific, just a very popular faith-based belief.
Too many people—including not only right-wingers with their Sacred Institution of Marriage but also left-wingers with their notions of sacred sexuality—view their attitudes about sexuality the way Evangelicals view religion, namely: “my way is the one true way.” Like Evangelicals who want to “bring Catholics to Christ,” they are tone-deaf to the fact that the people who are not practicing their form of sacred connection to other humans are probably practicing other forms instead. And like Puritans who dismiss the faiths of Native Americans as superstition, they are missing out on spiritual connections themselves, although they are loath to admit it.
Those people in conventional sexual relationships who are the most supportive of low-libido people tend to share with us a bit of the spiritual experience of connection that you can have with close friends that doesn’t depend on gender or sexuality or orientation; meanwhile, those who dismiss us tend to be the ones who have rigid notions about friendship being incomparably less significant than romance, who drift apart from friends after marriage, who always say “let’s have lunch” but never do it. They withhold emotionally from friends too. No wonder they don’t experience or understand spiritual connections that aren’t dependent on gender or sex! Meanwhile, for those of us who have had a really intense spiritual experience of connection in a nonsexual relationship, having sex, especially under all the pressure of these sexual fundamentalists who insist it’s some sort of requirement for mental health, starts to feel like being forced to attend someone else’s church: everything that has had sacred meaning for you is dismissed, while other people’s sacred is constantly being shoved down your throat. Without this attitude, I would like sex more than I do now, although, to be honest, a backrub or sharing a bit of chocolate with my best friend would still take precedence.
Dave
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Posted by: pbutler on Mar 29, 2007 11:52 AM
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Yet we in the US continue to buy more and more of our meals from worse and worse fast-food joints, "instant-meal" manufacturers, etc.
Our physical environment is deteriorating, our relationships are ever-more shallow and strained, our cities are noisy stress factories, our clothing is uncomfortable, our entertainment is awful, our social structures are warped and increasingly antagonistic, our schools...[shudder]...
Let's face it, folks: turning our culture over to the corporations and our communications to advertising has been a complete failure.
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» Could be because so many have not actually had any really good food. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: dwatkins9 on Mar 29, 2007 11:58 AM
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» RE: "gender egalitarian cultures"
Posted by: dwatkins9
» RE: "gender egalitarian cultures"
Posted by: mviscid
» RE: "gender egalitarian cultures"
Posted by: morticia
» RE: "gender egalitarian cultures"
Posted by: dwatkins9
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Posted by: Wassermann on Mar 29, 2007 3:13 PM
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Trust me: various body parts smeared or covered with chocolate syrup taste EVEN BETTER. And after a while the added stickiness of all the dried or drying chocolate makes the sex even hotter!
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Posted by: form516 on Mar 29, 2007 5:24 PM
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I had a horrendous peri-menopausal period that lasted quite some time, I thought that I would never want sex again. It was like that asexual period pre-teens have. I had no use for it. But about a year and a half ago my symptoms started clearing out and boy am I ever glad I did not have it sewn up or something! ( Believe me, I hated the idea of sex so much for awhile that I was capable of anything!)
Well, I'm financially secure so, I guess I can't explain the fact that I have been able to really enjoy my sexuality- now that I'm "over the hill" I'm loving it.
But when you think about it, a lot of human characteristics ebb and flow like that...
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» RE: Sexual desire can be cyclical...
Posted by: DaBear
» Surely there's both an age and a generational factor that comes into play.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: charlieparisek on Mar 29, 2007 6:18 PM
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It is one thing to be an understanding husband. It is an entirely different matter to supress a huge part of one's being to a selfish and self-centered partner; especially so when that partner chooses to go hugely public with marital details that most couples would find embarrassing.
At the very least Kip should find himself a suitable sex partner outside of the marriage. Any feelings of guilt could be salved with a nice box of Godiva.
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» RE: HAND JOBS FOR KIP
Posted by: Guy
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Mar 29, 2007 7:28 PM
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Did its inventor (a man, no doubt) curse his brethren or bless womankind?
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» RE: I have to wonder...
Posted by: Guy
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Posted by: tap17x on Mar 29, 2007 9:23 PM
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Posted by: morticia on Mar 29, 2007 9:26 PM
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Posted by: tap17x on Mar 29, 2007 9:32 PM
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Posted by: Sherry M. on Mar 29, 2007 10:27 PM
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Why doesn't this article mention the importance of foreplay for women? I'll bet more than half our libido problems would be solved if more men weren't so clueless, or careless, about foreplay. Gratitude certainly does enhance MY libido.....
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» RE: Men are like chocolate....
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» Or better yet...
Posted by: xconservative
» This could land me in jail, but....
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Men are like chocolate....
Posted by: Guy
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Posted by: peterb on Mar 31, 2007 11:58 PM
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» RE: The big question
Posted by: Guy
» RE: The big question
Posted by: morticia
» RE: The big question
Posted by: Guy
» RE: The big question
Posted by: morticia
» RE: The big question
Posted by: Guy
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 1, 2007 12:40 PM
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The rules around marriage are based on the idea that it is permanent in all but the rarest of cases. Well today more than half of all marriages fail yet as far as the courts are concerned the rules for a marriage that lasted 1 year are the same as for one that lasted 20 years.
Marriage is dead.
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Posted by: form516 on Apr 3, 2007 3:00 PM
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(I keep pretending just like everyone else that this is not the case..don't worry)
Trap 'em while you are young, girls! Theres a lot in it for you.
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