COMMENTS: 182
Queer 101: A Guide for Heteros
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Even San Franciscans scratched their heads a bit. The local paper's sex columnist, Violet Blue, pointed out that it meant sex. She argued that the twist in conservatives' panties resulted from San Franciscans' sex-positive outlook. Blue offered a paean to some of the city's sexual rituals, several of which, such as the Folsom Street Fair, are primarily gay.
But even Violet Blue didn't tell the whole truth: The phrase "San Francisco values" came directly from the right's well-worn gay-baiting playbook. In a story called "San Francisco Values Front and Center," the right's faithful warrior Bill O'Reilly shifts from talking about the city's ousting of ROTC clubs from several high schools into a discussion of gay marriage. He includes standard playbook comparisons of gay unions to polygamy, "triads" and incest.
So why hasn't anybody called a spade a spade? Many in Middle America have come to believe homosexual values must be abhorrent, based on the right's insistence that all homosexuals are radical perverts.
Blindness to difference has allowed the right wing to invent a sinister stereotype of "homosexuals" that has only tenuous links to reality. Radical right groups generate bogus statistics by conflating gay men and lesbians (the claim that homosexuals are more likely to have STDs should more accurately say that lesbians have the lowest rates of STDs of any group) and gay men and men who molest boys (imagine if they consistently referred to men who molest girls as "straight men"). The right gets away with their smears because it has persuaded Americans that sex and desire have no role in polite society.
Queers understand that desire, like hunger, is inexorable and beyond reasoning with. Policy should work with that assumption, not against it or it will always fail. And as the good clean fun of bootlicking at the Folsom Street Fair demonstrates, the only aspect of sexual behavior that is subject to moral judgment is consent between adults. What would happen if every minute and every dollar spent limiting the rights of gays and lesbians was instead spent on prosecuting sexual harassment, rape and child molestation?
But before we can even begin to think about policy changes, the public needs to become much more educated about queer culture -- a difficult task considering that even San Franciscans, who are tolerant of queers, often don't understand the nuances of their lifestyles.
And because queer culture is vibrant in San Francisco, any meaningful discussion of it would have to include a variety of perspectives and a list of exceptions to every rule. After all, taking exception to the rule is a -- or the -- fundamental aspect of queer culture. This is especially true of lesbian culture, transsexualism or any other kind of gender deviance, which are not even mentioned in Blue's tribute.
After all, Speaker Pelosi is far less likely than the local sex columnist to know exactly what queer values are, and we certainly can't expect her to trumpet queer values to Middle America if she doesn't fully understand them. So, I offer Speaker Pelosi -- and you -- the following primer to help understand the people behind the values and what they stand for.
Begin the binaries
It is important to remember that the gays whose greatest desire is to get married and live behind a white picket fence don't represent the whole community. Some of us enjoy being different and indicate as much by calling ourselves queer. In the world of gay women, those of us who are distinctly proud of (and political about) our differences are more likely to refer to ourselves as dykes. Those who don't like to ruffle any feathers generally prefer the less-threatening term "lesbians."
Beyond annual Pride festivals, gays and lesbians have precious little in common. We all know that men earn more than women, and so the income gap between the genders is exacerbated once you have communities of primarily men or women. This is often apparent in large urban centers. Neighborhoods that are known for being centers of gay (male) life are often more upscale and the dykier 'hoods are more working class -- such as the Castro vs. the Mission in San Francisco and in Boston, the South End vs. Jamaica Plain.
But it's more than just money. Gay men have a far more fully developed sexual culture than lesbians do -- hence, their inclusion in Violet Blue's profile of sex in this city. It's not that lesbians have less sex; that's a bad stereotype. Rather, gay men have sexual practices that are (a) often public and (b) not remotely shared with straight culture. Neither heterosexuals nor, sadly, lesbians have glory holes or street fairs, such as the Folsom Street Fair, celebrating S/M and leather subcultures.
The wild world of gender
Now, dear reader, we embark on the murky territory of gender identity. The fascinating thing about the lingo of gender identity is that each new term that springs up -- and I'm sure some are doing so outside of my ever-so-hip purview this very moment -- brings with it a whole new way of thinking about gender. For queers, and even some gays and lesbians, gender is an arbitrary cultural construct (yes, as a matter of fact, many of us did read too much Judith Butler in the early '90s).
Dykes have contributed the most to the ever-evolving language of gender. It's no coincidence that those most limited by gender -- biological women who can't profit by association from male privilege -- have done the most to think their way out of its traps. The oldest dyke gender identities, going back at least as far as the 40s, are butch and femme. Even Speaker Pelosi knows that butches are masculine-identified lesbians. "Femme" is properly used to describe women who have put a queer spin on femininity, but sometimes used to describe women who are fairly feminine.
In the last 10 years or so, many formerly butch dykes have taken testosterone to become female-to-male (FTM) transsexuals. Butches who don't take hormones have responded with new terms to describe their masculine identification. "Transgenderism" refers to people who fully identify as the gender opposite of their biological sex but who do not take hormones. Other masculine lesbians prefer the neologism "boi."
One of the most important things to remember is to never challenge someone's gender identity, whatever it may be. If you don't know how to refer to a gender-nonconforming person, ask if he or she prefers masculine or feminine pronouns. You must then respect his or her wishes -- otherwise, you will promptly be asked to return your queer-friendly I.D. card.
Another quick and easy way to lose your access card is asking a transsexual person -- FTM or MTF -- what the current status of their parts is. But, that's obvious, right?
Since I'm in the club, I get to talk about parts. Techniques for converting male genitalia into female have been around for about 50 years, which is why male-to-female (or MTF) transsexuals have a longer history than FTMs. Phalloplasty -- surgical creation of a penis -- still gives pretty lousy results. It may be because FTMs can never fully pass -- especially in the ways that matter most to sexual partners -- that female-to-male transsexuals are a recent phenomenon. They rely more on queer culture, and are in fact more integrated with it than MTFs.
Both surgeries are incredibly expensive, which is why, if you've been surfing the Craigslist personals, you may have seen a lot of "pre-op" trannies. In order to minimize the effects of secondary sexual characteristics they don't want, FTMs "pack." (Packing is wearing a dildo.) Of late, flaccid dildos have become available for FTMs to wear during nonsexual activity. They also sometimes flatten out their chests with "binders."
Of course, many dykes don't fully identify with either gender. Dykes who walk the line between the genders refer to themselves as "andro." Those who consider themselves an unexpected mix of masculine and feminine call themselves "gender queer." There are a million other terms and combinations of terms, and even members of the club need to have the more elaborate ones explained.
Where the boys are
Gay male culture has been surprisingly uncreative about gender. Contrary to popular opinion, many gay men are quite masculine. But as far as stylized gay masculine "genders," there's only the '70s butch look -- you know, with the Tom Selleck mustache and the leather cowboy fashion.
Then, there's the queen -- that bitchy, witty, home-decorating stereotype that Middle America never gets tired of. The term queen is also fast becoming dated. Her younger, snappy cousin sometimes goes by the derogatory term "twink."
It's hard being pretty. Eating disorders and stimulants are not uncommon in men in these cultures. Enter the bears' rebellion. Throwing off the beauty standards of stylized masculinity and effeminacy, "bears" embrace facial and body hair and even favor portly figures.
Despite, or perhaps because of, their timeless stereotyping as sissies, gay men aren't all that interested in violating gender norms. But gender deviance is taking off in the gay male community. I've recently spotted some fine young homosexuals dressed for all the world like butch dykes. And gay men are also embracing the term "boi" in attempt to forge a version of manhood distinct from straight masculinity.
The homosexual agenda
Speaker Pelosi, you must be wondering if gender diversity is the sum total of San Francisco values. The answer is no: This whirlwind tour is merely an introduction to the terms you will need to understand if you are to fulfill your role as representative of your fair city's values.
The multiple, evolving and self-created forms of difference in the queer community can be a model for embracing other forms of diversity. San Francisco values -- since we're nearing the end of our tête-à -tête, let's be blunt and call them the homosexual agenda -- reject the idea that the boxes people check reveal their core identity. You need to know a bit more about people -- and, it often comes down to asking them. Thus, in San Francisco, you will hear the question, "How do you identify?" The answer will encompass not just those revered multicultural categories race, class, and gender, but how the individual creates space for him or herself among them.
In terms of legislation, Speaker Pelosi, the queer way of thinking might help you sort out your positions on issues such as immigration (not all Latinos are illegal, not all "illegals" are alike) and affirmative action (more boxes, please).
If you remember that difference is good, you will strive to maintain American diversity while you also tend to the social safety net. In fact, many Americans fall through the cracks of government policies because those policies rely on legislators' limited guesses about who people are and what they need.
The lover of difference does not believe that all Americans do, or should, share the same set of values and habits. Who knows, if more Americans let go of their terror of the unknown, they might begin to find their own queerdom -- and find it both a liberating and meaningful way to connect with others.
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» you are either a troll or an idiot
Posted by: dbatterman
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Posted by: gillijen on Mar 1, 2007 2:05 AM
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and when did trans and genderqueer issues become the sole property of homosexuals?
This article presents such a narrow view of queer issues that it would do nothing more than further confuse anyone reading it.
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» Could you say a bit more?
Posted by: philame
» RE: He didn't say quite enough! Just enough to further confuse people!
Posted by: MindyB
» RE: no wonder mainstream folks are so confused
Posted by: Powder-Monkey
» Straight Eye for the Queer Guy
Posted by: pnsuitec
» Queer Eye on the Straight Flame
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE:.NOT A PREFERENCE!!!!!!! Without Heterosexuals there would be no Homosexuals!
Posted by: MindyB
» RE: Straight Eye for the Queer Guy - He's Using AlterNet for Free Advertising
Posted by: pnsuitec
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Posted by: chomsky on Mar 1, 2007 2:29 AM
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» RE: That's so gay
Posted by: bookie
» "Homophobia is so gay."
Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: That's so gay
Posted by: jesusonthedashboard
» RE: That's so gay
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: That's so gay
Posted by: andiprice001
» RE: That's so gay
Posted by: maestra
» Welcome to the nerdaforium
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Welcome to the nerdaforium
Posted by: bookie
» RE: Welcome to the nerdaforium
Posted by: Marne
» RE: Welcome to the nerdaforium
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: That SUCKS
Posted by: AlienSlave
» RE: That SUCKS
Posted by: pnsuitec
» RE: That SUCKS
Posted by: andiprice001
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Posted by: Bobsays on Mar 1, 2007 3:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But Lord help me if I behaved like that and my female friends knew. What a trash bag I would be in their eyes. The lectures and remonstrations I would hear.
I love the double standard for gays: I wish I could live so irresponsibly.
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» anecdotal experience is not data
Posted by: halophoenix
» RE: anecdotal experience is not data
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: goeswithness
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man - Why Not Do It?
Posted by: thirdmg
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: kelt65
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: sourtster
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: SF_Patriot
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: jmoore
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: astrony
» Then sleep with men!
Posted by: medstudgeek
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Mar 1, 2007 4:20 AM
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It's an interesting article for curiosity sake, and it makes a few good points. But I don't see why you need to understand everyone in order to respect them and mind your own business.
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» Mind one's own business? Don't expect that at Alternet
Posted by: Torgo
» RE: No need to know
Posted by: gailkate
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Posted by: D_comp on Mar 1, 2007 4:56 AM
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» RE: ...
Posted by: H_H
» RE: ...
Posted by: fork
» RE: ...
Posted by: Jeffski
» RE: ...
Posted by: fork
» RE: ...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: ...
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: ...
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: ..."gays and lesbians"
Posted by: Deejwade
» RE: ..."gays and lesbians"--Thank you Donna! Great explanation
Posted by: MindyB
» RE: ..."gays and lesbians"--Thank you Donna! Great explanation
Posted by: fork
» RE: Donna
Posted by: AlienSlave
» Simply a Poorly Written Article
Posted by: SF_Patriot
» RE: Simply a Poorly Written Article
Posted by: maestra
» That goes for me
Posted by: scajomar
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Posted by: aislinnluv on Mar 1, 2007 5:00 AM
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Posted by: genxerky on Mar 1, 2007 5:42 AM
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Posted by: astralman on Mar 1, 2007 6:15 AM
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» With just one useful truth ... buried deep
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: With just one useful truth ... buried deep
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Yeah, it kinda IS ...
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» AND ... Just curious why
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: Dear author
Posted by: Stancel
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Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Mar 1, 2007 6:24 AM
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Read the whole thing:
http://www.freedomtomarry.org/document.asp?id=3449
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» RE: Best pro-Marriage Equality argument Ever
Posted by: kelt65
» But ... this is how it's done NOW
Posted by: AdamSelene40
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Posted by: Jeffski on Mar 1, 2007 6:31 AM
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Articles such as these that purport to speak for the gay and lesbian community while perpetuating stereotypes and cliches do a disservice both to that community and to the larger straight society and gay/straight dialogues.
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» RE: Doesn't speak for me
Posted by: Milo
» RE: Doesn't speak for me
Posted by: Jeffski
» RE: Doesn't speak for me
Posted by: rg
» RE: Doesn't speak for me
Posted by: Jeffski
» uh
Posted by: crashtestcase
» RE: uh
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: uh
Posted by: Jeffski
» RE: uh
Posted by: buffeliscious
Comments are closed-
Posted by: medstudgeek on Mar 1, 2007 6:37 AM
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I'm a little worried about how this is going to play in Middle America (it apparently upset them enough to let Republicans win in lots of places), but I guess as long as it stays in San Fran we'll be okay.
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» RE: Good article
Posted by: psyopswatcher
» Keep queer valules in SF? Like a Japanese internment camp? That's not okay.
Posted by: cosmicfire
» They won't.
Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: Good article
Posted by: kelt65
» RE:NOT A GODD OR ACCURATE ARTICLE
Posted by: MindyB
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Mar 1, 2007 6:52 AM
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Was there a different answer?
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» RE: My assumption is that they're fellow citizens...
Posted by: aislinnluv
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Posted by: meggars on Mar 1, 2007 6:55 AM
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Outside of academia and the 20-30 something white circles in huge cities, lesbian culture is very diverse and radically different from anything else on the planet. And it's a difference that make us invisible, minimized, revised or ridiculed by not just heterosexual culture but by writers like this one.
And, by the way, transgendered as a definition DOES include transsexuals at any stage, MTF, FTM, those who refuse a gender, and crossdressers of any gender or orientation. It's a deliberately ambiguous term that includes contradictory philosophies -- those who believe gender is biological and therefore changing gender identity must include hormones and surgery, and those who believe gender is constructed, therefore available to anyone regardless of physical appearance.
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» RE: Please indicate when you're talking about only 7% of the population
Posted by: PirateJesus
» Thank You!
Posted by: freeda'all
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Posted by: Don Garb on Mar 1, 2007 7:14 AM
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Their solution was to take an ordinary bodily function, something that everyone had to do, and make it illegal: punishable by fines, torture and death. Now breathing, eating, drinking and defecating were not appropriate crimes because everyone always did them, but sex was a good candidate.
So the ancient psychopaths created the falsehood that sex was a choice and that those who made the wrong choice could be destroyed. This kept populations far larger than the numbers of the thugs under control. This in addition to all the other thuggy things of course.
Flash forward thousands of years to the present. The psychopathic strategy still works today! There have been many books written about the contribution homosexuals have made over the years to our art, science and culture. But we are just now starting to see how much of our world has been built to serve the ends of the psychopaths. Recorded history has been the struggle between the real human beings and the psychopathic monsters who are not human at all. And for every gay person out there, there are how many psychopaths? Two? Or three?
Another good one is when a ceo says: "The shareholders made me do it!" yeah right ...
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» The Greatest tool of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed...
Posted by: psychochurch
» Technically Speaking...
Posted by: neptune
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Posted by: melissa999 on Mar 1, 2007 7:23 AM
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Just to respond to this, "I'm a little worried about how this is going to play in Middle America (it apparently upset them enough to let Republicans win in lots of places), but I guess as long as it stays in San Fran we'll be okay."
Actually, Kansas is apparently a hotbed of new gay life now that more people feel comfortable about coming out. It would sadden me if people played the fear card in the voting booth. It would be an ironic move since many gays are Republican. Sexuality and desire for smaller government do not always correlate, especially when you consider the higher tax brackets.
To respond to the article itself, I think it's narrow in its scope. What I find particularly fascinating about the transgender movement are the endless questions about what it means to be a woman or a man or somewhere in between that are rarely fully answered. While there seems to be a focus on genitalia, hormonal changes (induced by ingesting synthetic hormones) and outward appearances, I think it will be more interesting to focus on the brain. After all, your brain will always be pre-op, no?
There are far worse crimes than sleeping with someone that people think you shouldn't or asking someone to call you a non-specific gender pronoun, like the growing lack of respect for other people and the increasing disdain for intellectual inquiry and discourse.
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» RE: Actually, not that good....
Posted by: freeda'all
» RE: Actually, not that good....
Posted by: crashtestcase
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Posted by: Theriomorph on Mar 1, 2007 8:13 AM
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Hate to contribute toward the stereotype of impossible to please queer people with so many identifications and mores that discussion and social action gets bogged down in 'me too'/'me first' bickering - but another 'full survey' of queer culture that entirely fails to mention bisexual culture? On Alternet? Felt like I was back in the Eighties when my very presence at a Pride March was 'defocusing' and I just 'hadn't made my mind up yet.'
Ouch.
A lot of the same ol' tired and injurious stereotypes, here, too, about trans, gay, and lesbian culture.
I love the writer's idea of an open letter on queer culture to Speaker Pelosi. But aiming for the middle ground between humor and information didn't work at all, in my opinion. Given the diversity in queer culture, I suspect that going whole hog in one direction or the other rather than waffling in the middle is the best bet. Be funny, or be accurate. This was neither.
God forbid, be both funny and accurate.
Long-winded, sorry.
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Posted by: kelt65 on Mar 1, 2007 8:14 AM
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» RE: Drag Queens?
Posted by: freeda'all
» RE: Drag Queens?
Posted by: kelt65
» RE: Drag Queens?
Posted by: generic_moniker
» RE: Drag Queens?
Posted by: Stancel
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Posted by: SayBlade on Mar 1, 2007 8:30 AM
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This is why it truly amazes me that anyone who "follows Jesus" can hate homosexuals and go to war. After all, the only weapon Jesus ever uses (John 2:15) is a flogger he made himself. He never commented on homosexuals either, so it is safe to say they could be full partcipants in his roving band of hippie queer folk.
So the term "queer", or any other term for that matter, is adopted by a culture and that culture may be very localised.
In the case of Cameron Scott, he has tried to take on an enormous task in a very short article. To cover such a topic thoroughly Scott would be looking at something the size of a set of encyclopaedia volumes on a library shelf.
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Posted by: freeda'all on Mar 1, 2007 8:44 AM
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Yeah, they want our name and our lives and our cultures and our festivals but they don't want us around unless we adher to the 'rules' scott has set forth in this article.
Lesbian resistance to this is growing and it appears to me that gay male resistance is too. It was the trans and bi communities who latched onto us not the other way around and they continue to sap our strengths, claim our histories and erase the reality of our lives so that they may inject their own in place of us. Bullshit. It's time for another Stonewall Revolution.
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Posted by: freeda'all on Mar 1, 2007 8:44 AM
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Yeah, they want our name and our lives and our cultures and our festivals but they don't want us around unless we adher to the 'rules' scott has set forth in this article.
Lesbian resistance to this is growing and it appears to me that gay male resistance is too. It was the trans and bi communities who latched onto us not the other way around and they continue to sap our strengths, claim our histories and erase the reality of our lives so that they may inject their own in place of us. Bullshit. It's time for another Stonewall Revolution.
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» I call bullshit
Posted by: crashtestcase
» RE: I call bullshit
Posted by: freeda'all
» RE: I call bullshit
Posted by: crashtestcase
» RE: I call bullshit
Posted by: Jeffski
» RE: I call bullshit
Posted by: aubrey
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Posted by: anniedine on Mar 1, 2007 9:01 AM
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The group of people who have sex with (or who would have sex with) people of their own "gender" is as diverse a group as "African Americans" and "Catholics" and "women." (And for those of you who know that sex is not necessarily the defining characteristic of being LGBTQ, and those of you who don't, let's just go with that oversimplification for argument's sake).
Our diversity is that simple AND that complicated. As a class of people we are oppressed by societies that don't want us to exist and so attempt to herd us into some kind of group identification. For protection we've tended to try to herd together as well. Then we look around at that herd and want to differentiate ourselves as any other humans do.
We want to group together because of our natural affiliations, as well as to be with people who "get" what it's like to be in our shoes. But the range of our choices in that is vast. Some LGBTQ people prefer a suburban lifestyle with BBQ in the backyard with their mostly straight neighbors and a few other LGBTQ suburban types. Name any interest, avocation, vocation, lifestyle, or what-have-you and you will find LGBTQ people who are affiliating around that AND their LGBTQ status.
The point of anything our community and our allies write about us is this: we should have the same rights and responsibilities as all other citizens, whether or not we conform to ANYONE'S notion of correct behavior (including those in our own herd), as long as we are not hurting anyone else (Jerry Falwell's delicate feelings notwithstanding).
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» RE: a dyke's two cents
Posted by: Lara
» RE: a dyke's two cents
Posted by: jesusonthedashboard
» What's this "we" crap bwana?
Posted by: freeda'all
» RE: What's this "we" crap bwana?
Posted by: anniedine
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Posted by: generic_moniker on Mar 1, 2007 9:48 AM
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Mar 1, 2007 9:58 AM
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Plenty of "gays" are rich and vote Republican.
Their only issue seems to be making gay a mainstream lifestyle.
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» RE: I don't understand ....
Posted by: kelt65
» to kelt65-
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: I don't understand ....
Posted by: SayBlade
» Expanding rights for any group is a progressive issue.
Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: I don't understand ....
Posted by: Stancel
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Posted by: kranstar on Mar 1, 2007 10:12 AM
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Posted by: LeeAnnG on Mar 1, 2007 10:21 AM
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Posted by: SF_Patriot on Mar 1, 2007 10:59 AM
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» RE: Simply a Poorly Written Article
Posted by: Stancel
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Posted by: SF_Patriot on Mar 1, 2007 11:08 AM
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» RE: You Need to Get Out More
Posted by: SF_Patriot
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Posted by: scot on Mar 1, 2007 11:18 AM
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*The idea that, given consent, anything goes in sexual matters is PRECISELY what the Right Wing would deny (along with most of the human race for thousands of years).
*So if lesbians have the lowest rates of STDs of any group, then the rate for gay men must be stratospheric--right? (Just do the math.)
*That gender identity is an arbitrary cultural construct to be constantly contested and kept in flux is not a principle by which most sane people want to live their lives. They have larger concerns to think about and more important things to do. --So does Alternet.
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» RE: This Piece Is Amazingly Out of Touch with Reality
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: This Piece Is Amazingly Out of Touch with Reality
Posted by: freeda'all
» RE: This Piece Is Amazingly Out of Touch with Reality
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: This Piece Is Amazingly Out of Touch with Reality
Posted by: kelt65
» RE: This Piece Is Amazingly Out of Touch with Reality
Posted by: scot
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Posted by: Jasonix on Mar 1, 2007 11:23 AM
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Meanwhile, I've known heterosexual supporters to gay marriage who say they support gay marriage because they want to morally reform gay people and pressure them to give up their polyamorous lifestyle and adopt "traditional" values like monogamy. Is that really "accepting" gay people? I don't think so.
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» RE: Gay marriage is a moral improvement campaign
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Gay marriage is a moral improvement campaign
Posted by: Jasonix
» RE: Gay marriage is a moral improvement campaign
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Gay marriage is a moral improvement campaign
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» RE: Gay marriage is a moral improvement campaign
Posted by: kelt65
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Posted by: crashtestcase on Mar 1, 2007 1:27 PM
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» RE: talking about other people's junk
Posted by: PhantomOfLiberty
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Posted by: aubrey on Mar 1, 2007 1:45 PM
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What is really quite queer for me is the integrity to live my life by my own definitions, and my own desires.
I was saddened to read Scott's article for a few reasons, but for this note I'll leave it to the following quote:
It is important to remember that the gays whose greatest desire is to get married and live behind a white picket fence don't represent the whole community. Some of us enjoy being different and indicate as much by calling ourselves queer.
I don't know why Scott thinks it is so different to be gay and not married. Most of the gay community is not married. So for those who enjoy being different - why would you prefer to stay within the comfy confines of being "queer" in SF? Having lived in SF for some years myself (and loved it), I never got the sense that being "queer" was anything but normal in the beautiful city by the bay.
As a gay man married to another man I can assure you that being a married gay is a very difficult identy to occupy. Straights throughout this country don't like us (even some in liberal leaning Mass and CA). and many gays do not like us - read Scott's quote to sense the dismissal of our decision to legally commit.
We have had friends of ours in SF tell us that we were becoming too "mainstream" and "trying to be straight".
Contrary to Scott's contention, and our friends, my husband and I were not trying to model our lives after Ozzie and Harriet, nor any other "normal" icon.
Rather, we were doing what we wanted to do, commit to each other and acknowledge our relationship socially as well. We also wanted this commitment to contain a legal component. The only way we wanted to emulate the straight community was in being able to access the same legal responsibilities and rights for our relationship as our straight counterparts.
The real courage to be different is not defined by SF queer, nor by the religious right in DC. My husband and I are really quite "queer" anywhere we go in America. The conservatives don't respect our marriage, and neither do the SF queersters like Scott (it seems).
It saddens me to read Scott's limiting definition of "queer".
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Posted by: nunezam on Mar 1, 2007 2:25 PM
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Since so much of this article deals with identity and labels, its easy to see the parallels within ethnic movements. Being of Mexican descent, but socially conscious, I choose Chicano as my main identifier. To some of my fellow Raza, Chicano is a derogatory term, and there are plenty of other terms they prefer: Latino, Hispanic etc. And so a group of people (Raza/Latinos/Hispanics) targeted as a whole by xenophobia and institutional racism finds itself divided and to this date conquered by AmeriKa.
After reading the comments left by other readers, it is especially clear that similar divisiveness is occuring within the queer community. Plenty of people have written "Oh not me! Not me! This article doesn't reflect me!" Nor should it. This is one person's politically charged, and in many ways socially conscious, attempt to put the issues of the queer community into focus for the rest of us. So, let the usage of terms by this author be a reflection of their political stance, but don't forget the forest for the trees. The gay rights movement should learn from ethnic movements to avoid bickering over labels and progress forward together.
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» Hmmm, perhaps...
Posted by: freeda'all
» RE: Hmmm, perhaps...
Posted by: crashtestcase
» RE: Hmmm, perhaps...
Posted by: freeda'all
» RE: Hmmm, perhaps...
Posted by: nunezam
» RE: Hmmm, perhaps...
Posted by: freeda'all
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Posted by: ebliso on Mar 1, 2007 3:35 PM
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And in case your one of those people who say "I don't care who you sleep with! " you will see that it's not just about declaring who you have sex with , but about all the other aspects of life where we casually refer to the people we find cute , the people we are interested in , and the people we love . This is one of the tangential reasons that it's so important for gay people to come out of the closet.
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» yawn
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: yawn
Posted by: PhantomOfLiberty
» RE: yawn
Posted by: ebliso
» RE: Thought experiment
Posted by: PhantomOfLiberty
» RE: Thought experiment
Posted by: kelt65
» RE: Thought experiment
Posted by: philame
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Posted by: gellero on Mar 1, 2007 8:41 PM
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Posted by: Phenix on Mar 1, 2007 9:11 PM
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O and I did not know that lesbians stole the term androgynous since it actually describes a personality blend that is both feminine and masculine. I happen to have an Andro personality so it could cause me some problem if I would describe my personality in those terms to a few people in San Fran or the GLBT community.
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Posted by: PhantomOfLiberty on Mar 1, 2007 9:14 PM
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Further more how can people be so touchy about someone not knowing the teeny weeny discrepancies between these terms. They change so often and even from area to area. In Chicago "twink" is HARDLY derogatory and "Bear" is generally considered offensive. Not everyone has heard of these terms, let alone studied their meaning and application, and not everyone needs to. I'm sure most of the population of this country has never taken a gender studies class.
Who gets to decide what term means what, what terms are affectionate and what terms are offensive anyway? Is there a president of gender terms that I'm not aware of? Anyway back to the article:
If I need to talk to a person who looks like a woman, sounds like a woman, whether they are a woman or not, I will address them as if they were female. Even if the person is a non passing transvestite, I will use feminine pronouns. And I urge everyone to do the same. Why would you dress like a woman or actually become a woman physically if you wanted people to call you a he? I don't have the time or energy to be questioning or trying to determine the gender of everyone I meet.
I think this article and the obsession with terms and labels is pretty damaging. I know it's only human to want to put a name to things but the sad fact is you can't always do it. And printing this kind of article, supposedly FOR "straight" people, only helps to confuse them more and cause an even greater rift between two aspects of society that have absolutely no reason to hate or fear each other. Let's get our heads out of our asses be who we are and quit bitching about everything, especially something so tiny and trivial that no one can control like what names we call each other. Sheesh.
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Posted by: ebliso on Mar 2, 2007 1:00 AM
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By the way, I DID grow up in a conservative area of the country and moved from there MANY many years ago.
the purpose of this experiment is to give heteros a tiny glimpse of what a closeted life really means in a very day-to-day practical kind of way. It is a way in which YOU TOO can take a week and walk in someone else's shoes. Sorry if the idea of compassion inducing, empathetic , mind-expanding social experiments seem lame or make you tired and bored. The frank truth is that many straight people think that being out and gay is about telling people about your sex life (see O'Reilly, and his ilk) it's really about all the realms of life in which a closeted person must lie about their life to get by.
Yeah, I've been out since I was in high school (in rural Kentucky) , but it took years .... many long sad brutal years , before I could exorcise the internalized repression and self-censorship that resulted from being raised in a highly bigoted place. I've talked to many straight people who just have no clue what it's like to grow up telling lies to everyone all the time because you fear the bashings and taunts and ignorance and isolation and abandonment . Straight people have no friggin' clue . When you were in school and had a crush on a girl (or guy) you could share that with friends. You could go to a dance and kiss and hug the person you liked without having to get a court order to force the school to allow you to go and to protect you from the bigots all around. You could gawk at a pretty girl (or guy) at the mall and share a soda or hold hands on the play ground . Your parents would proudly take your prom photos and then hang them on the wall. You could talk about how annoying your husband (or wife) is being this week ... not doing dishes or taking out the trash. You could get caught making out by your parents and not have to worry that you'd be sent to some abusive "ex-gay" camp. You could do all of these things without fear of being beaten in the street or laughed at and ridiculed by adults or ostracized by "good christian kids" or preached at by crazy old conservative bigots.
For the sake of empathy and compassion, you could devote just 1 week to understanding life as an outsider. That's not much to ask. The worst that could happen is that you might learn something about yourself and about the world.
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Posted by: aubrey on Mar 2, 2007 5:37 AM
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And the lack of knowledge is expressed by a disdain for what this author does not know.
This response is too similar to much of the vitriol we get from the religious right.
It is a shame that there is such a narrow identification, when identity flux would supposedly lead to a more engaging experience.
Perhaps what this author reflects is what scares middle America - a sense that only a narrow subset of the country really knows what is what.
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» RE: How much does this author know about queer culture?
Posted by: freeda'all
» RE: How much does this author know about queer culture?
Posted by: aubrey
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Posted by: ebliso on Mar 2, 2007 6:33 AM
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» RE: Yeah, the article itself isn't so hot
Posted by: kelt65
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Posted by: freeda'all on Mar 2, 2007 8:47 AM
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Butches are not masculine-identified women. we're strong women in our own right and we have never needed to resort to male descriptors for ourselves. That crap comes from people obsessed with gender markers and naming everything they do as m/f.
It isn't true either that lesbians who don't identify with either call themselves 'andro.' Many of us long ago have seen gender for what it is and we moved beyond it and we move without it. We call ourselves many names but none of them are about 'gender.' The constant harping on gender that comes from the trans community itself reflects an obsession with and a belief in the 'gender binary.' They're the ones who want the binary kept intact and who want women and men kept on one side of the fence or another so that they can be seen as 'transgressive' when they playact.
'Crossing gender lines' is a dubious idea at best. What are the lines, where are they and when do we know we've crossed them? Dr Sally Ride didn't need to 'pack' to enter the astronaut's world of manliness nor does Hillary Clinton to stay in politics. I don't need a strap-on to go out and do something considered 'manly' nor does a man need to castrate himself to be sensitive.
'Blurring the lines' is just empty code for we're gonna keep it so confusing that it never makes sense and therefore it must be something big & wonderful. It's a self-assigned case of terminal uniqueness.
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Posted by: 911 truther on Mar 2, 2007 10:07 AM
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go here.....http://video.google.com enter hiv+aids+fact or fiction
in the search box, it'll be the 1st movie listed.
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Posted by: dbatterman on Mar 2, 2007 11:35 AM
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The obsession with labeling that the author and some commentors show is discouraging. Why must someone gain their identity from a label, instead of gaining from themselves?
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Posted by: buffeliscious on Mar 2, 2007 1:15 PM
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Posted by: opeluboy on Mar 2, 2007 4:08 PM
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Having several close friends and relatives who are gay and lesbian, I felt that none of this article really applied to them. Maybe that's because none of them live in San Fran. Nor did I feel I really needed any help loving and appreciating people dear to me.
And I still have a hard time saying "queer" as my whole life it was a perjorative. Sorry, but I don't call black people "niggers" either, even if they may do so themselves now.
Anyway, you guys sort it out. I'm heading to the neighborhood bar to hoist a few with Sonya and Penny. They'll go home together and do what they do, which is none of my business, and I'll go home with my wife and do what we do, which is none of their's.
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Posted by: lwbaby on Mar 2, 2007 4:53 PM
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Do you think the mentally ill have any more control of who they are than you do of your sexuality????
How about this phrase, 'how stupid'. If you have ever used that phrase did you ever consider it might be considered offensive to someone with a lower than the government designated IQ?
Get over your puffed up indignation. We are all made fun of. Ever hear of "you throw like a girl'? How about 'White men can't jump?' I'd throw in a black or brown stereotype but that would just be too much...
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Posted by: OhioPatriot on Mar 3, 2007 8:14 AM
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If you then want the "Marriage" go to your local church of choice and have it done there.
If your church agrees with your lifestyle they will marry you. If they do not then you can examine thier reasons and change your lifestyle if you so choose or you can go find a church that will.
At either rate it takes the state out of the business of marriage.
Its all about the word.
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Posted by: aurelius on Mar 3, 2007 8:37 AM
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Speaking from my own experience (since I will not dare to generalize about others in the broad strokes you have), I have never run across difficulties satisfying my heterosexual female partner, nor do I feel like I can never fully pass because of my genital configuration. Even if either or both of those things were true, hanging out in the lesbian community is about the last thing I'd want to do--part of how I knew that I was indeed a man rather than the butch dyke that I was ardently trying to be was that I was entirely uninterested and unwelcome in any lesbian spaces (even, or perhaps especially, the butch-femme circles). That obviously was not the entire story, of course, but suffice it to say that if I'd wanted to be in the lesbian community I would have saved myself the time and expense of transitioning. Not all of us FTMs come out of the lesbian community, and many of us resent being lumped in with them in spite of our best efforts.
Lastly, but most upsettingly, your condescending attitude toward heterosexuals is not the sort of thing I'd expect from someone who (should) know what it's like to be stereotyped and falsely categorized by gender identity and sexuality. Part of having our choices and orientations respected is respecting the choices and orientations of others, rather than making "queer" into a special club with a velvet rope and taunting people who prefer to stay outside. Personally, I'd rather live among all sorts of people--queer AND straight, trans AND not--being respected by them AND respecting them in turn.
I hope most progressives know enough about queer culture to know that you don't speak for all of it. I hope (but fear otherwise) that no progressive takes you as a representative of the trans experience either.
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» RE: Trans Man Here
Posted by: jaychicago
» RE: Trans Man Here
Posted by: Theriomorph
» RE: Trans Man Here
Posted by: anniedine
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Posted by: jaychicago on Mar 3, 2007 9:00 AM
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Also, not all transsexual people and their partners are queer. Many are straight.
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» RE: 'nother trans man here
Posted by: fork
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Posted by: Stancel on Mar 10, 2007 2:47 AM
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Okay, I'm going to tackle each horrifying ridiculous part, piece by piece.
It is important to remember that the gays whose greatest desire is to get married and live behind a white picket fence don't represent the whole community. Some of us enjoy being different and indicate as much by calling ourselves queer.
No, doofus, the word queer is an all encompassing term for LGBT.
In the world of gay women, those of us who are distinctly proud of (and political about) our differences are more likely to refer to ourselves as dykes.
Dyke is a slur against lesbians. It is being reclaimed, as a word of pride for lesbian. Stop defining words which are different from their actual definitions.
Those who don't like to ruffle any feathers generally prefer the less-threatening term "lesbians."
The word lesbian already ruffles feathers. Not everyone who is out and proud about their lesbianism calls themself a "dyke" . You, sir, are generalizing.
Beyond annual Pride festivals, gays and lesbians have precious little in common.
Excuse me, we have one big thing in common, or we wouldn't be gays and lesbians. And to insinuate as if we only meet each other in 'Pride festivals' is a ridiculous thing to say.
We all know that men earn more than women, and so the income gap between the genders is exacerbated once you have communities of primarily men or women. This is often apparent in large urban centers. Neighborhoods that are known for being centers of gay (male) life are often more upscale and the dykier 'hoods are more working class...
Another ridiculous generalization. Please. There are plenty of working class gay men. And not every gay person lives in these so-called "centers of gay life", so stop making it look that way. You exacerbate homophobia.
Neither heterosexuals nor, sadly, lesbians have glory holes or street fairs, such as the Folsom Street Fair, celebrating S/M and leather subcultures.
This is where I get more than annoyed and get enraged. How dare you make such a generalization, that gays go to glory holes or involved in S/M. You, sir, are reinforcing stereotypes!
For queers, and even some gays and lesbians,
There is no such difference.
Dykes have contributed the most to the ever-evolving language of gender.
Don't refer to lesbians as dykes.
In the last 10 years or so, many formerly butch dykes have taken testosterone to become female-to-male (FTM) transsexuals.
So now you think that the only FTM transsexuals are former butch lesbians? You need to stop writing shitty articles.
But as far as stylized gay masculine "genders," there's only the '70s butch look -- you know, with the Tom Selleck mustache and the leather cowboy fashion.
Great, stereotypes.
Then, there's the queen -- that bitchy, witty, home-decorating stereotype that Middle America never gets tired of. The term queen is also fast becoming dated. Her younger, snappy cousin sometimes goes by the derogatory term "twink."
Idiot. You once again re-inforce stereotypes.
Speaker Pelosi, you must be wondering if gender diversity is the sum total of San Francisco values. The answer is no: This whirlwind tour is merely an introduction to the terms you will need to understand if you are to fulfill your role as representative of your fair city's values.
Yeah, this has been such a ridiculous article. If you want to talk about queer issues, do it in a respectful and serious manner, otherwise STFU!
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Posted by: Stancel on Mar 10, 2007 2:53 AM
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» RE: xactly!
Posted by: Stancel
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Posted by: yesman on Mar 10, 2007 9:33 PM
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Gay men may be quite masculine-acting, or quite masculine-appearing, but they can't be simply "masculine." Why? Because "masculinity," like "femininty," implies heterosexuality. That is, one can't be a "real" man (or a "real" woman) without practicing (and desiring) heterosex. Hence, gay men can never be "masculine" in the sense of being simply, and unselfconsciously, "real men." This fact is not lost on any gay man, whether he can articulate this particular thought or not.
That is, a gay man may DECIDE to act like, or to give the appearance of being, a "real" man. But part of being a REAL real man is NOT having to DECIDE to be one. Real men assume that they are what they are due to biological determinism, not choice. If you have a choice (or even think you do), you're queer (or at least gay).
Also, it's a little to simplistic to say that twinks are the new queens. Twinks do occupy a similar position in that "twink" (like "queen") is a rather derisive term used by one gay man in reference to another. But twinks need not be particularly effeminate, as queens must. So, if twinks were merely queens in modern garb, then they'd probably still just be queens. It would be interesting to look a little more closely into the differences (and the reasons behind them) between those categorized with these two terms . . . .
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Posted by: Cruella on Mar 26, 2007 5:54 AM
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The fact that gay and lesbians may identify as particular sub-groups based on gender stereotypes may serve to highlight how important it is to treat people as individuals, but how is the situation any different from straight women defining themselves as (I'm using London terms cos that's what I know) ladettes, tom-boys or "the lipstick mafia". By the same token straight men who define themselves as meterosexual, new lad, old lad, cad, heteropolitan. Seems to me that if there is one group out there who suffer from being treated as though they are all the same it's straight guys - that whole sports and naked women and fast cars culture that in my experience most guys don't actually want to participate in.
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» you are either a troll or an idiot
Posted by: dbatterman
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Posted by: gillijen on Mar 1, 2007 2:05 AM
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and when did trans and genderqueer issues become the sole property of homosexuals?
This article presents such a narrow view of queer issues that it would do nothing more than further confuse anyone reading it.
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» Could you say a bit more?
Posted by: philame
» RE: He didn't say quite enough! Just enough to further confuse people!
Posted by: MindyB
» RE: no wonder mainstream folks are so confused
Posted by: Powder-Monkey
» Straight Eye for the Queer Guy
Posted by: pnsuitec
» Queer Eye on the Straight Flame
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE:.NOT A PREFERENCE!!!!!!! Without Heterosexuals there would be no Homosexuals!
Posted by: MindyB
» RE: Straight Eye for the Queer Guy - He's Using AlterNet for Free Advertising
Posted by: pnsuitec
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Posted by: chomsky on Mar 1, 2007 2:29 AM
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» RE: That's so gay
Posted by: bookie
» "Homophobia is so gay."
Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: That's so gay
Posted by: jesusonthedashboard
» RE: That's so gay
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: That's so gay
Posted by: andiprice001
» RE: That's so gay
Posted by: maestra
» Welcome to the nerdaforium
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Welcome to the nerdaforium
Posted by: bookie
» RE: Welcome to the nerdaforium
Posted by: Marne
» RE: Welcome to the nerdaforium
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: That SUCKS
Posted by: AlienSlave
» RE: That SUCKS
Posted by: pnsuitec
» RE: That SUCKS
Posted by: andiprice001
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Posted by: Bobsays on Mar 1, 2007 3:49 AM
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But Lord help me if I behaved like that and my female friends knew. What a trash bag I would be in their eyes. The lectures and remonstrations I would hear.
I love the double standard for gays: I wish I could live so irresponsibly.
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» anecdotal experience is not data
Posted by: halophoenix
» RE: anecdotal experience is not data
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: goeswithness
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man - Why Not Do It?
Posted by: thirdmg
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: kelt65
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: sourtster
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: SF_Patriot
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: jmoore
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: I wish I could live like a gay man
Posted by: astrony
» Then sleep with men!
Posted by: medstudgeek
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Mar 1, 2007 4:20 AM
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It's an interesting article for curiosity sake, and it makes a few good points. But I don't see why you need to understand everyone in order to respect them and mind your own business.
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» Mind one's own business? Don't expect that at Alternet
Posted by: Torgo
» RE: No need to know
Posted by: gailkate
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Posted by: D_comp on Mar 1, 2007 4:56 AM
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» RE: ...
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» RE: ...
Posted by: fork
» RE: ...
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» RE: ...
Posted by: fork
» RE: ...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: ...
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: ...
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: ..."gays and lesbians"
Posted by: Deejwade
» RE: ..."gays and lesbians"--Thank you Donna! Great explanation
Posted by: MindyB
» RE: ..."gays and lesbians"--Thank you Donna! Great explanation
Posted by: fork
» RE: Donna
Posted by: AlienSlave
» Simply a Poorly Written Article
Posted by: SF_Patriot
» RE: Simply a Poorly Written Article
Posted by: maestra
» That goes for me
Posted by: scajomar
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Posted by: aislinnluv on Mar 1, 2007 5:00 AM
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Posted by: genxerky on Mar 1, 2007 5:42 AM
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Posted by: astralman on Mar 1, 2007 6:15 AM
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» With just one useful truth ... buried deep
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: With just one useful truth ... buried deep
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Yeah, it kinda IS ...
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» AND ... Just curious why
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: Dear author
Posted by: Stancel
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Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Mar 1, 2007 6:24 AM
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Read the whole thing:
http://www.freedomtomarry.org/document.asp?id=3449
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» RE: Best pro-Marriage Equality argument Ever
Posted by: kelt65
» But ... this is how it's done NOW
Posted by: AdamSelene40
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Posted by: Jeffski on Mar 1, 2007 6:31 AM
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Articles such as these that purport to speak for the gay and lesbian community while perpetuating stereotypes and cliches do a disservice both to that community and to the larger straight society and gay/straight dialogues.
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» RE: Doesn't speak for me
Posted by: Milo
» RE: Doesn't speak for me
Posted by: Jeffski
» RE: Doesn't speak for me
Posted by: rg
» RE: Doesn't speak for me
Posted by: Jeffski
» uh
Posted by: crashtestcase
» RE: uh
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: uh
Posted by: Jeffski
» RE: uh
Posted by: buffeliscious
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Posted by: medstudgeek on Mar 1, 2007 6:37 AM
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I'm a little worried about how this is going to play in Middle America (it apparently upset them enough to let Republicans win in lots of places), but I guess as long as it stays in San Fran we'll be okay.
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» RE: Good article
Posted by: psyopswatcher
» Keep queer valules in SF? Like a Japanese internment camp? That's not okay.
Posted by: cosmicfire
» They won't.
Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: Good article
Posted by: kelt65
» RE:NOT A GODD OR ACCURATE ARTICLE
Posted by: MindyB
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Mar 1, 2007 6:52 AM
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Was there a different answer?
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» RE: My assumption is that they're fellow citizens...
Posted by: aislinnluv
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Posted by: meggars on Mar 1, 2007 6:55 AM
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Outside of academia and the 20-30 something white circles in huge cities, lesbian culture is very diverse and radically different from anything else on the planet. And it's a difference that make us invisible, minimized, revised or ridiculed by not just heterosexual culture but by writers like this one.
And, by the way, transgendered as a definition DOES include transsexuals at any stage, MTF, FTM, those who refuse a gender, and crossdressers of any gender or orientation. It's a deliberately ambiguous term that includes contradictory philosophies -- those who believe gender is biological and therefore changing gender identity must include hormones and surgery, and those who believe gender is constructed, therefore available to anyone regardless of physical appearance.
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» RE: Please indicate when you're talking about only 7% of the population
Posted by: PirateJesus
» Thank You!
Posted by: freeda'all
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Posted by: Don Garb on Mar 1, 2007 7:14 AM
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Their solution was to take an ordinary bodily function, something that everyone had to do, and make it illegal: punishable by fines, torture and death. Now breathing, eating, drinking and defecating were not appropriate crimes because everyone always did them, but sex was a good candidate.
So the ancient psychopaths created the falsehood that sex was a choice and that those who made the wrong choice could be destroyed. This kept populations far larger than the numbers of the thugs under control. This in addition to all the other thuggy things of course.
Flash forward thousands of years to the present. The psychopathic strategy still works today! There have been many books written about the contribution homosexuals have made over the years to our art, science and culture. But we are just now starting to see how much of our world has been built to serve the ends of the psychopaths. Recorded history has been the struggle between the real human beings and the psychopathic monsters who are not human at all. And for every gay person out there, there are how many psychopaths? Two? Or three?
Another good one is when a ceo says: "The shareholders made me do it!" yeah right ...
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» The Greatest tool of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed...
Posted by: psychochurch
» Technically Speaking...
Posted by: neptune
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Posted by: melissa999 on Mar 1, 2007 7:23 AM
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Just to respond to this, "I'm a little worried about how this is going to play in Middle America (it apparently upset them enough to let Republicans win in lots of places), but I guess as long as it stays in San Fran we'll be okay."
Actually, Kansas is apparently a hotbed of new gay life now that more people feel comfortable about coming out. It would sadden me if people played the fear card in the voting booth. It would be an ironic move since many gays are Republican. Sexuality and desire for smaller government do not always correlate, especially when you consider the higher tax brackets.
To respond to the article itself, I think it's narrow in its scope. What I find particularly fascinating about the transgender movement are the endless questions about what it means to be a woman or a man or somewhere in between that are rarely fully answered. While there seems to be a focus on genitalia, hormonal changes (induced by ingesting synthetic hormones) and outward appearances, I think it will be more interesting to focus on the brain. After all, your brain will always be pre-op, no?
There are far worse crimes than sleeping with someone that people think you shouldn't or asking someone to call you a non-specific gender pronoun, like the growing lack of respect for other people and the increasing disdain for intellectual inquiry and discourse.
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» RE: Actually, not that good....
Posted by: freeda'all
» RE: Actually, not that good....
Posted by: crashtestcase
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Posted by: Theriomorph on Mar 1, 2007 8:13 AM
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Hate to contribute toward the stereotype of impossible to please queer people with so many identifications and mores that discussion and social action gets bogged down in 'me too'/'me first' bickering - but another 'full survey' of queer culture that entirely fails to mention bisexual culture? On Alternet? Felt like I was back in the Eighties when my very presence at a Pride March was 'defocusing' and I just 'hadn't made my mind up yet.'
Ouch.
A lot of the same ol' tired and injurious stereotypes, here, too, about trans, gay, and lesbian culture.
I love the writer's idea of an open letter on queer culture to Speaker Pelosi. But aiming for the middle ground between humor and information didn't work at all, in my opinion. Given the diversity in queer culture, I suspect that going whole hog in one direction or the other rather than waffling in the middle is the best bet. Be funny, or be accurate. This was neither.
God forbid, be both funny and accurate.
Long-winded, sorry.
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Posted by: kelt65 on Mar 1, 2007 8:14 AM
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» RE: Drag Queens?
Posted by: freeda'all
» RE: Drag Queens?
Posted by: kelt65
» RE: Drag Queens?
Posted by: generic_moniker
» RE: Drag Queens?
Posted by: Stancel
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Posted by: SayBlade on Mar 1, 2007 8:30 AM
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This is why it truly amazes me that anyone who "follows Jesus" can hate homosexuals and go to war. After all, the only weapon Jesus ever uses (John 2:15) is a flogger he made himself. He never commented on homosexuals either, so it is safe to say they could be full partcipants in his roving band of hippie queer folk.
So the term "queer", or any other term for that matter, is adopted by a culture and that culture may be very localised.
In the case of Cameron Scott, he has tried to take on an enormous task in a very short article. To cover such a topic thoroughly Scott would be looking at something the size of a set of encyclopaedia volumes on a library shelf.
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Posted by: freeda'all on Mar 1, 2007 8:44 AM
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Yeah, they want our name and our lives and our cultures and our festivals but they don't want us around unless we adher to the 'rules' scott has set forth in this article.
Lesbian resistance to this is growing and it appears to me that gay male resistance is too. It was the trans and bi communities who latched onto us not the other way around and they continue to sap our strengths, claim our histories and erase the reality of our lives so that they may inject their own in place of us. Bullshit. It's time for another Stonewall Revolution.
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Posted by: freeda'all on Mar 1, 2007 8:44 AM
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Yeah, they want our name and our lives and our cultures and our festivals but they don't want us around unless we adher to the 'rules' scott has set forth in this article.
Lesbian resistance to this is growing and it appears to me that gay male resistance is too. It was the trans and bi communities who latched onto us not the other way around and they continue to sap our strengths, claim our histories and erase the reality of our lives so that they may inject their own in place of us. Bullshit. It's time for another Stonewall Revolution.
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» I call bullshit
Posted by: crashtestcase
» RE: I call bullshit
Posted by: freeda'all
» RE: I call bullshit
Posted by: crashtestcase
» RE: I call bullshit
Posted by: Jeffski
» RE: I call bullshit
Posted by: aubrey
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Posted by: anniedine on Mar 1, 2007 9:01 AM
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The group of people who have sex with (or who would have sex with) people of their own "gender" is as diverse a group as "African Americans" and "Catholics" and "women." (And for those of you who know that sex is not necessarily the defining characteristic of being LGBTQ, and those of you who don't, let's just go with that oversimplification for argument's sake).
Our diversity is that simple AND that complicated. As a class of people we are oppressed by societies that don't want us to exist and so attempt to herd us into some kind of group identification. For protection we've tended to try to herd together as well. Then we look around at that herd and want to differentiate ourselves as any other humans do.
We want to group together because of our natural affiliations, as well as to be with people who "get" what it's like to be in our shoes. But the range of our choices in that is vast. Some LGBTQ people prefer a suburban lifestyle with BBQ in the backyard with their mostly straight neighbors and a few other LGBTQ suburban types. Name any interest, avocation, vocation, lifestyle, or what-have-you and you will find LGBTQ people who are affiliating around that AND their LGBTQ status.
The point of anything our community and our allies write about us is this: we should have the same rights and responsibilities as all other citizens, whether or not we conform to ANYONE'S notion of correct behavior (including those in our own herd), as long as we are not hurting anyone else (Jerry Falwell's delicate feelings notwithstanding).
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» RE: a dyke's two cents
Posted by: Lara
» RE: a dyke's two cents
Posted by: jesusonthedashboard
» What's this "we" crap bwana?
Posted by: freeda'all
» RE: What's this "we" crap bwana?
Posted by: anniedine
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Posted by: generic_moniker on Mar 1, 2007 9:48 AM
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Mar 1, 2007 9:58 AM
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Plenty of "gays" are rich and vote Republican.
Their only issue seems to be making gay a mainstream lifestyle.
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» RE: I don't understand ....
Posted by: kelt65
» to kelt65-
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: I don't understand ....
Posted by: SayBlade
» Expanding rights for any group is a progressive issue.
Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: I don't understand ....
Posted by: Stancel
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Posted by: kranstar on Mar 1, 2007 10:12 AM
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Posted by: LeeAnnG on Mar 1, 2007 10:21 AM
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Posted by: SF_Patriot on Mar 1, 2007 10:59 AM
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» RE: Simply a Poorly Written Article
Posted by: Stancel
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Posted by: SF_Patriot on Mar 1, 2007 11:08 AM
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» RE: You Need to Get Out More
Posted by: SF_Patriot
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Posted by: scot on Mar 1, 2007 11:18 AM
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*The idea that, given consent, anything goes in sexual matters is PRECISELY what the Right Wing would deny (along with most of the human race for thousands of years).
*So if lesbians have the lowest rates of STDs of any group, then the rate for gay men must be stratospheric--right? (Just do the math.)
*That gender identity is an arbitrary cultural construct to be constantly contested and kept in flux is not a principle by which most sane people want to live their lives. They have larger concerns to think about and more important things to do. --So does Alternet.
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» RE: This Piece Is Amazingly Out of Touch with Reality
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: This Piece Is Amazingly Out of Touch with Reality
Posted by: freeda'all
» RE: This Piece Is Amazingly Out of Touch with Reality
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: This Piece Is Amazingly Out of Touch with Reality
Posted by: kelt65
» RE: This Piece Is Amazingly Out of Touch with Reality
Posted by: scot
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Posted by: Jasonix on Mar 1, 2007 11:23 AM
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Meanwhile, I've known heterosexual supporters to gay marriage who say they support gay marriage because they want to morally reform gay people and pressure them to give up their polyamorous lifestyle and adopt "traditional" values like monogamy. Is that really "accepting" gay people? I don't think so.
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» RE: Gay marriage is a moral improvement campaign
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Gay marriage is a moral improvement campaign
Posted by: Jasonix
» RE: Gay marriage is a moral improvement campaign
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Gay marriage is a moral improvement campaign
Posted by: D_comp
» RE: Gay marriage is a moral improvement campaign
Posted by: kelt65
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Posted by: crashtestcase on Mar 1, 2007 1:27 PM
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» RE: talking about other people's junk
Posted by: PhantomOfLiberty
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Posted by: aubrey on Mar 1, 2007 1:45 PM
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What is really quite queer for me is the integrity to live my life by my own definitions, and my own desires.
I was saddened to read Scott's article for a few reasons, but for this note I'll leave it to the following quote:
It is important to remember that the gays whose greatest desire is to get married and live behind a white picket fence don't represent the whole community. Some of us enjoy being different and indicate as much by calling ourselves queer.
I don't know why Scott thinks it is so different to be gay and not married. Most of the gay community is not married. So for those who enjoy being different - why would you prefer to stay within the comfy confines of being "queer" in SF? Having lived in SF for some years myself (and loved it), I never got the sense that being "queer" was anything but normal in the beautiful city by the bay.
As a gay man married to another man I can assure you that being a married gay is a very difficult identy to occupy. Straights throughout this country don't like us (even some in liberal leaning Mass and CA). and many gays do not like us - read Scott's quote to sense the dismissal of our decision to legally commit.
We have had friends of ours in SF tell us that we were becoming too "mainstream" and "trying to be straight".
Contrary to Scott's contention, and our friends, my husband and I were not trying to model our lives after Ozzie and Harriet, nor any other "normal" icon.
Rather, we were doing what we wanted to do, commit to each other and acknowledge our relationship socially as well. We also wanted this commitment to contain a legal component. The only way we wanted to emulate the straight community was in being able to access the same legal responsibilities and rights for our relationship as our straight counterparts.
The real courage to be different is not defined by SF queer, nor by the religious right in DC. My husband and I are really quite "queer" anywhere we go in America. The conservatives don't respect our marriage, and neither do the SF queersters like Scott (it seems).
It saddens me to read Scott's limiting definition of "queer".
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Posted by: nunezam on Mar 1, 2007 2:25 PM
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Since so much of this article deals with identity and labels, its easy to see the parallels within ethnic movements. Being of Mexican descent, but socially conscious, I choose Chicano as my main identifier. To some of my fellow Raza, Chicano is a derogatory term, and there are plenty of other terms they prefer: Latino, Hispanic etc. And so a group of people (Raza/Latinos/Hispanics) targeted as a whole by xenophobia and institutional racism finds itself divided and to this date conquered by AmeriKa.
After reading the comments left by other readers, it is especially clear that similar divisiveness is occuring within the queer community. Plenty of people have written "Oh not me! Not me! This article doesn't reflect me!" Nor should it. This is one person's politically charged, and in many ways socially conscious, attempt to put the issues of the queer community into focus for the rest of us. So, let the usage of terms by this author be a reflection of their political stance, but don't forget the forest for the trees. The gay rights movement should learn from ethnic movements to avoid bickering over labels and progress forward together.
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» Hmmm, perhaps...
Posted by: freeda'all
» RE: Hmmm, perhaps...
Posted by: crashtestcase
» RE: Hmmm, perhaps...
Posted by: freeda'all
» RE: Hmmm, perhaps...
Posted by: nunezam
» RE: Hmmm, perhaps...
Posted by: freeda'all
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Posted by: ebliso on Mar 1, 2007 3:35 PM
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And in case your one of those people who say "I don't care who you sleep with! " you will see that it's not just about declaring who you have sex with , but about all the other aspects of life where we casually refer to the people we find cute , the people we are interested in , and the people we love . This is one of the tangential reasons that it's so important for gay people to come out of the closet.
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» yawn
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: yawn
Posted by: PhantomOfLiberty
» RE: yawn
Posted by: ebliso
» RE: Thought experiment
Posted by: PhantomOfLiberty
» RE: Thought experiment
Posted by: kelt65
» RE: Thought experiment
Posted by: philame
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Posted by: gellero on Mar 1, 2007 8:41 PM
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Posted by: Phenix on Mar 1, 2007 9:11 PM
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O and I did not know that lesbians stole the term androgynous since it actually describes a personality blend that is both feminine and masculine. I happen to have an Andro personality so it could cause me some problem if I would describe my personality in those terms to a few people in San Fran or the GLBT community.
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Posted by: PhantomOfLiberty on Mar 1, 2007 9:14 PM
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Further more how can people be so touchy about someone not knowing the teeny weeny discrepancies between these terms. They change so often and even from area to area. In Chicago "twink" is HARDLY derogatory and "Bear" is generally considered offensive. Not everyone has heard of these terms, let alone studied their meaning and application, and not everyone needs to. I'm sure most of the population of this country has never taken a gender studies class.
Who gets to decide what term means what, what terms are affectionate and what terms are offensive anyway? Is there a president of gender terms that I'm not aware of? Anyway back to the article:
If I need to talk to a person who looks like a woman, sounds like a woman, whether they are a woman or not, I will address them as if they were female. Even if the person is a non passing transvestite, I will use feminine pronouns. And I urge everyone to do the same. Why would you dress like a woman or actually become a woman physically if you wanted people to call you a he? I don't have the time or energy to be questioning or trying to determine the gender of everyone I meet.
I think this article and the obsession with terms and labels is pretty damaging. I know it's only human to want to put a name to things but the sad fact is you can't always do it. And printing this kind of article, supposedly FOR "straight" people, only helps to confuse them more and cause an even greater rift between two aspects of society that have absolutely no reason to hate or fear each other. Let's get our heads out of our asses be who we are and quit bitching about everything, especially something so tiny and trivial that no one can control like what names we call each other. Sheesh.
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Posted by: ebliso on Mar 2, 2007 1:00 AM
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By the way, I DID grow up in a conservative area of the country and moved from there MANY many years ago.
the purpose of this experiment is to give heteros a tiny glimpse of what a closeted life really means in a very day-to-day practical kind of way. It is a way in which YOU TOO can take a week and walk in someone else's shoes. Sorry if the idea of compassion inducing, empathetic , mind-expanding social experiments seem lame or make you tired and bored. The frank truth is that many straight people think that being out and gay is about telling people about your sex life (see O'Reilly, and his ilk) it's really about all the realms of life in which a closeted person must lie about their life to get by.
Yeah, I've been out since I was in high school (in rural Kentucky) , but it took years .... many long sad brutal years , before I could exorcise the internalized repression and self-censorship that resulted from being raised in a highly bigoted place. I've talked to many straight people who just have no clue what it's like to grow up telling lies to everyone all the time because you fear the bashings and taunts and ignorance and isolation and abandonment . Straight people have no friggin' clue . When you were in school and had a crush on a girl (or guy) you could share that with friends. You could go to a dance and kiss and hug the person you liked without having to get a court order to force the school to allow you to go and to protect you from the bigots all around. You could gawk at a pretty girl (or guy) at the mall and share a soda or hold hands on the play ground . Your parents would proudly take your prom photos and then hang them on the wall. You could talk about how annoying your husband (or wife) is being this week ... not doing dishes or taking out the trash. You could get caught making out by your parents and not have to worry that you'd be sent to some abusive "ex-gay" camp. You could do all of these things without fear of being beaten in the street or laughed at and ridiculed by adults or ostracized by "good christian kids" or preached at by crazy old conservative bigots.
For the sake of empathy and compassion, you could devote just 1 week to understanding life as an outsider. That's not much to ask. The worst that could happen is that you might learn something about yourself and about the world.
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Posted by: aubrey on Mar 2, 2007 5:37 AM
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And the lack of knowledge is expressed by a disdain for what this author does not know.
This response is too similar to much of the vitriol we get from the religious right.
It is a shame that there is such a narrow identification, when identity flux would supposedly lead to a more engaging experience.
Perhaps what this author reflects is what scares middle America - a sense that only a narrow subset of the country really knows what is what.
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» RE: How much does this author know about queer culture?
Posted by: freeda'all
» RE: How much does this author know about queer culture?
Posted by: aubrey
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Posted by: ebliso on Mar 2, 2007 6:33 AM
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» RE: Yeah, the article itself isn't so hot
Posted by: kelt65
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Posted by: freeda'all on Mar 2, 2007 8:47 AM
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Butches are not masculine-identified women. we're strong women in our own right and we have never needed to resort to male descriptors for ourselves. That crap comes from people obsessed with gender markers and naming everything they do as m/f.
It isn't true either that lesbians who don't identify with either call themselves 'andro.' Many of us long ago have seen gender for what it is and we moved beyond it and we move without it. We call ourselves many names but none of them are about 'gender.' The constant harping on gender that comes from the trans community itself reflects an obsession with and a belief in the 'gender binary.' They're the ones who want the binary kept intact and who want women and men kept on one side of the fence or another so that they can be seen as 'transgressive' when they playact.
'Crossing gender lines' is a dubious idea at best. What are the lines, where are they and when do we know we've crossed them? Dr Sally Ride didn't need to 'pack' to enter the astronaut's world of manliness nor does Hillary Clinton to stay in politics. I don't need a strap-on to go out and do something considered 'manly' nor does a man need to castrate himself to be sensitive.
'Blurring the lines' is just empty code for we're gonna keep it so confusing that it never makes sense and therefore it must be something big & wonderful. It's a self-assigned case of terminal uniqueness.
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Posted by: 911 truther on Mar 2, 2007 10:07 AM
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go here.....http://video.google.com enter hiv+aids+fact or fiction
in the search box, it'll be the 1st movie listed.
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Posted by: dbatterman on Mar 2, 2007 11:35 AM
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The obsession with labeling that the author and some commentors show is discouraging. Why must someone gain their identity from a label, instead of gaining from themselves?
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Posted by: buffeliscious on Mar 2, 2007 1:15 PM
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Posted by: opeluboy on Mar 2, 2007 4:08 PM
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Having several close friends and relatives who are gay and lesbian, I felt that none of this article really applied to them. Maybe that's because none of them live in San Fran. Nor did I feel I really needed any help loving and appreciating people dear to me.
And I still have a hard time saying "queer" as my whole life it was a perjorative. Sorry, but I don't call black people "niggers" either, even if they may do so themselves now.
Anyway, you guys sort it out. I'm heading to the neighborhood bar to hoist a few with Sonya and Penny. They'll go home together and do what they do, which is none of my business, and I'll go home with my wife and do what we do, which is none of their's.
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Posted by: lwbaby on Mar 2, 2007 4:53 PM
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Do you think the mentally ill have any more control of who they are than you do of your sexuality????
How about this phrase, 'how stupid'. If you have ever used that phrase did you ever consider it might be considered offensive to someone with a lower than the government designated IQ?
Get over your puffed up indignation. We are all made fun of. Ever hear of "you throw like a girl'? How about 'White men can't jump?' I'd throw in a black or brown stereotype but that would just be too much...
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Posted by: OhioPatriot on Mar 3, 2007 8:14 AM
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If you then want the "Marriage" go to your local church of choice and have it done there.
If your church agrees with your lifestyle they will marry you. If they do not then you can examine thier reasons and change your lifestyle if you so choose or you can go find a church that will.
At either rate it takes the state out of the business of marriage.
Its all about the word.
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Posted by: aurelius on Mar 3, 2007 8:37 AM
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Speaking from my own experience (since I will not dare to generalize about others in the broad strokes you have), I have never run across difficulties satisfying my heterosexual female partner, nor do I feel like I can never fully pass because of my genital configuration. Even if either or both of those things were true, hanging out in the lesbian community is about the last thing I'd want to do--part of how I knew that I was indeed a man rather than the butch dyke that I was ardently trying to be was that I was entirely uninterested and unwelcome in any lesbian spaces (even, or perhaps especially, the butch-femme circles). That obviously was not the entire story, of course, but suffice it to say that if I'd wanted to be in the lesbian community I would have saved myself the time and expense of transitioning. Not all of us FTMs come out of the lesbian community, and many of us resent being lumped in with them in spite of our best efforts.
Lastly, but most upsettingly, your condescending attitude toward heterosexuals is not the sort of thing I'd expect from someone who (should) know what it's like to be stereotyped and falsely categorized by gender identity and sexuality. Part of having our choices and orientations respected is respecting the choices and orientations of others, rather than making "queer" into a special club with a velvet rope and taunting people who prefer to stay outside. Personally, I'd rather live among all sorts of people--queer AND straight, trans AND not--being respected by them AND respecting them in turn.
I hope most progressives know enough about queer culture to know that you don't speak for all of it. I hope (but fear otherwise) that no progressive takes you as a representative of the trans experience either.
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» RE: Trans Man Here
Posted by: jaychicago
» RE: Trans Man Here
Posted by: Theriomorph
» RE: Trans Man Here
Posted by: anniedine
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Posted by: jaychicago on Mar 3, 2007 9:00 AM
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Also, not all transsexual people and their partners are queer. Many are straight.
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» RE: 'nother trans man here
Posted by: fork
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Posted by: Stancel on Mar 10, 2007 2:47 AM
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Okay, I'm going to tackle each horrifying ridiculous part, piece by piece.
It is important to remember that the gays whose greatest desire is to get married and live behind a white picket fence don't represent the whole community. Some of us enjoy being different and indicate as much by calling ourselves queer.
No, doofus, the word queer is an all encompassing term for LGBT.
In the world of gay women, those of us who are distinctly proud of (and political about) our differences are more likely to refer to ourselves as dykes.
Dyke is a slur against lesbians. It is being reclaimed, as a word of pride for lesbian. Stop defining words which are different from their actual definitions.
Those who don't like to ruffle any feathers generally prefer the less-threatening term "lesbians."
The word lesbian already ruffles feathers. Not everyone who is out and proud about their lesbianism calls themself a "dyke" . You, sir, are generalizing.
Beyond annual Pride festivals, gays and lesbians have precious little in common.
Excuse me, we have one big thing in common, or we wouldn't be gays and lesbians. And to insinuate as if we only meet each other in 'Pride festivals' is a ridiculous thing to say.
We all know that men earn more than women, and so the income gap between the genders is exacerbated once you have communities of primarily men or women. This is often apparent in large urban centers. Neighborhoods that are known for being centers of gay (male) life are often more upscale and the dykier 'hoods are more working class...
Another ridiculous generalization. Please. There are plenty of working class gay men. And not every gay person lives in these so-called "centers of gay life", so stop making it look that way. You exacerbate homophobia.
Neither heterosexuals nor, sadly, lesbians have glory holes or street fairs, such as the Folsom Street Fair, celebrating S/M and leather subcultures.
This is where I get more than annoyed and get enraged. How dare you make such a generalization, that gays go to glory holes or involved in S/M. You, sir, are reinforcing stereotypes!
For queers, and even some gays and lesbians,
There is no such difference.
Dykes have contributed the most to the ever-evolving language of gender.
Don't refer to lesbians as dykes.
In the last 10 years or so, many formerly butch dykes have taken testosterone to become female-to-male (FTM) transsexuals.
So now you think that the only FTM transsexuals are former butch lesbians? You need to stop writing shitty articles.
But as far as stylized gay masculine "genders," there's only the '70s butch look -- you know, with the Tom Selleck mustache and the leather cowboy fashion.
Great, stereotypes.
Then, there's the queen -- that bitchy, witty, home-decorating stereotype that Middle America never gets tired of. The term queen is also fast becoming dated. Her younger, snappy cousin sometimes goes by the derogatory term "twink."
Idiot. You once again re-inforce stereotypes.
Speaker Pelosi, you must be wondering if gender diversity is the sum total of San Francisco values. The answer is no: This whirlwind tour is merely an introduction to the terms you will need to understand if you are to fulfill your role as representative of your fair city's values.
Yeah, this has been such a ridiculous article. If you want to talk about queer issues, do it in a respectful and serious manner, otherwise STFU!
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Posted by: Stancel on Mar 10, 2007 2:53 AM
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» RE: xactly!
Posted by: Stancel
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Posted by: yesman on Mar 10, 2007 9:33 PM
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Gay men may be quite masculine-acting, or quite masculine-appearing, but they can't be simply "masculine." Why? Because "masculinity," like "femininty," implies heterosexuality. That is, one can't be a "real" man (or a "real" woman) without practicing (and desiring) heterosex. Hence, gay men can never be "masculine" in the sense of being simply, and unselfconsciously, "real men." This fact is not lost on any gay man, whether he can articulate this particular thought or not.
That is, a gay man may DECIDE to act like, or to give the appearance of being, a "real" man. But part of being a REAL real man is NOT having to DECIDE to be one. Real men assume that they are what they are due to biological determinism, not choice. If you have a choice (or even think you do), you're queer (or at least gay).
Also, it's a little to simplistic to say that twinks are the new queens. Twinks do occupy a similar position in that "twink" (like "queen") is a rather derisive term used by one gay man in reference to another. But twinks need not be particularly effeminate, as queens must. So, if twinks were merely queens in modern garb, then they'd probably still just be queens. It would be interesting to look a little more closely into the differences (and the reasons behind them) between those categorized with these two terms . . . .
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Posted by: Cruella on Mar 26, 2007 5:54 AM
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The fact that gay and lesbians may identify as particular sub-groups based on gender stereotypes may serve to highlight how important it is to treat people as individuals, but how is the situation any different from straight women defining themselves as (I'm using London terms cos that's what I know) ladettes, tom-boys or "the lipstick mafia". By the same token straight men who define themselves as meterosexual, new lad, old lad, cad, heteropolitan. Seems to me that if there is one group out there who suffer from being treated as though they are all the same it's straight guys - that whole sports and naked women and fast cars culture that in my experience most guys don't actually want to participate in.
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