COMMENTS: 252
The High Cost of Manliness
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So, guys, I have an idea -- maybe it's time we stop trying. Maybe this masculinity thing is a bad deal, not just for women but for us.
We need to get rid of the whole idea of masculinity. It's time to abandon the claim that there are certain psychological or social traits that inherently come with being biologically male. If we can get past that, we have a chance to create a better world for men and women.
That dominant conception of masculinity in U.S. culture is easily summarized: Men are assumed to be naturally competitive and aggressive, and being a real man is therefore marked by the struggle for control, conquest and domination. A man looks at the world, sees what he wants and takes it. Men who don't measure up are wimps, sissies, fags, girls. The worst insult one man can hurl at another -- whether it's boys on the playground or CEOs in the boardroom -- is the accusation that a man is like a woman. Although the culture acknowledges that men can in some situations have traits traditionally associated with women (caring, compassion, tenderness), in the end it is men's strength-expressed-as-toughness that defines us and must trump any female-like softness. Those aspects of masculinity must prevail for a man to be a "real man."
That's not to suggest, of course, that every man adopts that view of masculinity. But it is endorsed in key institutions and activities -- most notably in business, the military and athletics -- and is reinforced through the mass media. It is particularly expressed in the way men -- straight and gay alike -- talk about sexuality and act sexually. And our culture's male heroes reflect those characteristics: They most often are men who take charge rather than seek consensus, seize power rather than look for ways to share it and are willing to be violent to achieve their goals.
That view of masculinity is dangerous for women. It leads men to seek to control "their" women and define their own pleasure in that control, which leads to epidemic levels of rape and battery. But this view of masculinity is toxic for men as well.
If masculinity is defined as conquest, it means that men will always struggle with each other for dominance. In a system premised on hierarchy and power, there can be only one king of the hill. Every other man must in some way be subordinated to the king, and the king has to always be nervous about who is coming up that hill to get him. A friend who once worked on Wall Street -- one of the preeminent sites of masculine competition -- described coming to work as like walking into a knife fight when all the good spots along the wall were taken. Masculinity like this is life lived as endless competition and threat.
No one man created this system, and perhaps none of us, if given a choice, would choose it. But we live our lives in that system, and it deforms men, narrowing our emotional range and depth. It keeps us from the rich connections with others -- not just with women and children, but other men -- that make life meaningful but require vulnerability.
This doesn't mean that the negative consequences of this toxic masculinity are equally dangerous for men and women. As feminists have long pointed out, there's a big difference between women dealing with the possibility of being raped, beaten and killed by the men in their lives, and men not being able to cry. But we can see that the short-term material gains that men get are not adequate compensation for what we men give up in the long haul -- which is to surrender part of our humanity to the project of dominance.
Of course there are obvious physical differences between men and women -- average body size, hormones, reproductive organs. There may be other differences rooted in our biology that we don't yet understand. Yet it's also true that men and women are more similar than we are different, and that given the pernicious effects of centuries of patriarchy and its relentless devaluing of things female, we should be skeptical of the perceived differences.
What we know is simple: In any human population, there is wide individual variation. While there's no doubt that a large part of our behavior is rooted in our DNA, there's also no doubt that our genetic endowment is highly influenced by culture. Beyond that, it's difficult to say much with any certainty. It's true that only women can bear children and breastfeed. That fact likely has some bearing on aspects of men's and women's personalities. But we don't know much about what the effect is, and given the limits of our tools to understand human behavior, it's possible we may never know much.
At the moment, the culture seems obsessed with gender differences, in the context of a recurring intellectual fad (called "evolutionary psychology" this time around, and "sociobiology" in a previous incarnation) that wants to explain all complex behaviors as simple evolutionary adaptations -- if a pattern of human behavior exists, it must be because it's adaptive in some ways. In the long run, that's true by definition. But in the short-term it's hardly a convincing argument to say, "Look at how men and women behave so differently; it must be because men and women are fundamentally different" when a political system has been creating differences between men and women.
From there, the argument that we need to scrap masculinity is fairly simple. To illustrate it, remember back to right after 9/11. A number of commentators argued that criticisms of masculinity should be rethought. Cannot we now see -- recognizing that male firefighters raced into burning buildings, risking and sometimes sacrificing their lives to save others -- that masculinity can encompass a kind of strength that is rooted in caring and sacrifice? Of course men often exhibit such strength, just as do women. So, the obvious question arises: What makes these distinctly masculine characteristics? Are they not simply human characteristics?
We identify masculine tendencies toward competition, domination and violence because we see patterns of differential behavior; men are more prone to such behavior in our culture. We can go on to observe and analyze the ways in which men are socialized to behave in those ways, toward the goal of changing those destructive behaviors. That analysis is different than saying that admirable human qualities present in both men and women are somehow primarily the domain of one gender. To assign them to a gender is misguided and demeaning to the gender that is then assumed not to possess them to the same degree. Once we start saying "strength and courage are masculine traits," it leads to the conclusion that woman are not as strong or courageous.
Of course, if we are going to jettison masculinity, we have to scrap femininity along with it. We have to stop trying to define what men and women are going to be in the world based on extrapolations from physical sex differences. That doesn't mean we ignore those differences when they matter, but we have to stop assuming they matter everywhere.
I don't think the planet can long survive if the current conception of masculinity endures. We face political and ecological challenges that can't be met with this old model of what it means to be a man. At the more intimate level, the stakes are just as high. For those of us who are biologically male, we have a simple choice: We men can settle for being men, or we can strive to be human beings.
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Posted by: jparsons on Sep 8, 2006 12:29 AM
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society embracing such views any time soon.
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» RE: I wish more human beings thought along these lines
Posted by: perri6
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Posted by: jparsons on Sep 8, 2006 12:29 AM
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society embracing such views any time soon.
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» Total BS- Author confusing masculinity w/ Capitalism
Posted by: psychochurch
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Posted by: UKMale on Sep 8, 2006 12:47 AM
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Of course gender defines our psycology, our physical body, out responses, our everything. This article, by trying to deny masculinity, must, by definition, deny femininity. If anyone posted an article here saying that women should stop being the loving, caring, mothering, wonderful beings that they are, there would be outrage. Millions of years have made us all what we are, and we have come a long way on the road to civilisation. Yes there are still "bad" people, rapists, abusing their strength and physicality, paedophiles abusing their position, but we do not have conditions such as Darfur, with daily rape, murder, destruction on a huge scale.
We are not perfect, and probably never will be. But we have, men and women together, each using their different skills and attributes, made a "decent" place to live.
Men and women are different, some from Mars, some from Venus (politicians from somewhere totally unknown to us), but we are getting better, we are making headway, together.
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» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: SBK
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: frepi
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: dgrinn
» yes true, we do not yet know what a matriarchy would look like...
Posted by: Blue Heron
» We Must Balance the Scales
Posted by: errandchild
» Feminine and Masculine embodied in one
Posted by: kc4choice
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: Livetta
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: Ouelle
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: Ktflake
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: Robba29
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: drmflorida
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
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» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: Byronik
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: techphile
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: dadmoffatt
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Posted by: Sojourner on Sep 8, 2006 12:47 AM
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The Wall Street deal room as the example of problems with masculinity sounds like a soap opera or Hollywood melodrama. Competitive behavior is survival behavior in our world. In our world, taking from someone else, even while it may be illegal, is justified as the first law of nature. So it seems that Jensen really ought to be talking about sin.
Secularizing destructive behavior by blaming it on masculinity does not alter the fact that so long as we live with others who believe that it is better to take for themselves, that it is better to warehouse net worth beyond all reasonable requirements, that accumulation demonstrates who are among the elect, that conspicuous consumption is fun, and that he who dies with the most toys wins, we might just as well have stayed in the African trees.
Men are also capable of cooperation. Is that what he is getting at? If so, yeah, let’s hear about that.
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» Did you actually read what you comment on?
Posted by: supercrisp
» RE: A little confusion goes a long way.
Posted by: wudhi
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Posted by: rsaxto on Sep 8, 2006 1:12 AM
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» RE: survival
Posted by: happy_bullet
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Posted by: HeroesAll on Sep 8, 2006 2:33 AM
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First up, yes, there are currently different social expectations for the behaviour of men and of women. Things that are acceptable for men are not acceptable for women, and vice versa. Anyone who's ever heard someone refer to a man as a 'pussy', or a 'girl', or to behaviour as 'gay', knows this is true. Similarly, women who do not toe the line of acceptable feminine behaviour get maligned in a similar way.
Second, many of you make the mistake of assuming that our behaviour is ingrained in our gender. If you can prove this, then there's a science career ahead of you. If not, then stop claiming it. The old nature-nurture debate has been going on for decades, and will continue to rage for decades more.
If anyone doubts, remember the method of scientific proof: if you're going to prove that gender roles are biologically determined, then you've got to prove that they still exist in the absence of social conditioning. In simpler words, if you believe that having a dick makes you naturally competitive, you've got to be able to point to a non-patriarchal society where dick == competitive. Can you? If not, then maybe rethink your belief.
I'd be more convinced by a theory that said that competitive behaviour was fostered by commercialisation and capitalism. After all, there are healthy non-capitalist societies (or have been), and they tend to show far less competition. Note that I'm not referring to the Soviet Union here, so don't start frothing.
As for those who refer to 'the law of the jungle', this is a bit of a furphy designed to make men in suits feel better about themselves. Yes, animals eat each other. Yes, animals in the same tribe fight. No, that doesn't mean that competition is the sole driver of all of the natural world.
Look at any animal that lives in packs or herds: they co-operate to drive off predators, for example, or to hunt. Humans by themselves are pretty flabby creatures, but the great strength of humans is in co-operation, and the ability to think beyond the next meal or the next root (at least I'd like to think so).
In fact, in the animal kindgom, co-operation is far more prevalent, and far more productive, than competition. Happens with plants, too, if you're interested. And between one genus (is that the correct term?) and another, between one kingdom and another.
So the author is saying something sensible and relevant after all. Pity some of you dismiss it out of hand, without thinking.
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» RE: It's amazing how many posters here...
Posted by: Lizmv
» Law of the jungle
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Law of the jungle
Posted by: Lauren
» A little knowledge ....
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: somewhat amazing ...
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: somewhat amazing ...
Posted by: laoma
» RE: somewhat amazing ...
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: somewhat amazing ...
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: somewhat amazing ...
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» Does it count if I giggled like a little school girl at many places in this article?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Does it count if I giggled like a little school girl at many places in this article?
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Does it count if I giggled like a little school girl at many places in this article?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: It's amazing how many posters here...
Posted by: redjenny
» we evolved from rodents
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: we evolved from rodents
Posted by: mac macgillicuddy
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Posted by: ChristopherLL on Sep 8, 2006 3:50 AM
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What is glaring in its absence is the works in literature, human development, anthroplogy, mythology, evolutionary biology and most important psychosexual, psychosocial and attachment theory. The two fundamental unconcsiouc forces are aggression and sexuality. Aggression is learned at an early age and is dependent on the how anger and power. Aggression is a force of nature as is sexuality and cannot be altered, denied or eliminated just by saying "no." It is essentially a defensive reaction to perceived threat and is fueled by fear and anger. In its healthy state aggession is a powerful energy for productivity, health and happipness. In an unhealthy state it becomes a source of revenge, retribution and destruction. It all depends on the balance.
This is all a complex issue an needs serious and committed attention, discussion and action. But it will not change by idealogical whims or judgmental accusations. It is the balance of all opposites in nature and not the elimination of their differences. Differences should be acknowledged and celebrated not obliterated. What I can say is this culture has taken competition to a form of worship. At the heart of competition is power. Men use force to assert their power and women use their bodies. They are both expoited by the society. The other characteristics that encompass both women and men are then subordinated or ignored.
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» RE: It Is Not So Simple
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: It Is Not So Simple
Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: It Is Not So Simple
Posted by: Ktflake
» RE: It Is Not So Simple
Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: It Is Not So Simple
Posted by: Ktflake
» The pot calls the kettle a kitchen item...
Posted by: supercrisp
» RE: The pot calls the kettle a kitchen item...
Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: It Is Not So Simple
Posted by: Annarisse
» RE: It Is Not So Simple
Posted by: dadmoffatt
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Posted by: ShoShenQ on Sep 8, 2006 3:51 AM
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» Not laughing...
Posted by: igoeja
» Why...is it threatening your sexuality?
Posted by: Bev
» Hey laughing boy
Posted by: supercrisp
» I think,,,,
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
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Posted by: Lincoln fan on Sep 8, 2006 3:57 AM
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Bob Reichenbach
Director, The Lincoln Initiative.
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» Charley proved women were not inferior -- he still rules
Posted by: cdtomei
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Posted by: YogiBear on Sep 8, 2006 3:58 AM
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This is worded incorectly -- as anyone who knows aggressive men will tell, they are equally dangerous to other men as they are to women. Our murder rate is driven by young men killing young men.
As for male firefighters -- they are indeed very brave and do perhaps exhibit the best of what masculinity has to offer. But they are also some of the worst offenders in the "toxic" class as well. So with one comes the other, apparently.
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» RE: Some quibbles - Toxic firefighters
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Some quibbles - Toxic firefighters
Posted by: AFWXMAN
» Thanks Yogi
Posted by: supercrisp
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Posted by: igoeja on Sep 8, 2006 4:07 AM
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Also, using Hofsteder's masculinity ratings of countries correlated against social outcomes, gender-divided countries tend to have less good social outcomes. Income inequality, average hours worked, and poor academic performance tend to correlate positively with masculine, gender-divided ratings. The more equal societies, which include France and the Scandinavian countries, generally have better quality of life measures as compared to the more gender-divided ones, e.g., US, UK, and Italy.
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» RE: Ir is Facile...
Posted by: cold2touch
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Posted by: Colin on Sep 8, 2006 5:10 AM
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I wonder if anyone should mention this to the Red Cross? (1863)
Like all your arguments, Cryofan, your post is big on joining up dots that don't necessarily exist.
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Posted by: cold2touch on Sep 8, 2006 6:14 AM
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 8, 2006 6:20 AM
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A man no woman would touch with a ten foot pole. And a woman complaining about how there are no "real" men anymore.
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» RE: Be careful what you ask for
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» RE: Be careful what you ask for
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» RE: Be careful what you ask for
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: Be careful what you ask for
Posted by: cmaukonen
» So short.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Be careful what you ask for
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Virtues Only So Because of Systemic Flaws
Posted by: igoeja
» Waaait a minute...
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: Waaait a minute...
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» What do you end up wih?
Posted by: Lizmv
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Posted by: moontime on Sep 8, 2006 6:22 AM
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Posted by: YHWH on Sep 8, 2006 6:38 AM
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» RE: Good Article!
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Good Article!
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Good Article!
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 8, 2006 6:44 AM
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Posted by: hayesad on Sep 8, 2006 6:55 AM
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» RE: The FakeLeft wants to make it Man vs Woman, White vs Black, just so it's not The Rich vs The Mas
Posted by: babs
» that there may be distinction without meaning
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: that there may be distinction without meaning
Posted by: hayesad
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Posted by: Bev on Sep 8, 2006 6:57 AM
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Posted by: oogiboogi on Sep 8, 2006 7:21 AM
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This revolution doesn't start in the head ... it will need to start in the hearts of men -- and it is learned through patterning. So if this article means something to you and you are a man ... don't look to programs or doctrine. Just be thoughtful and strong, loving and decisive and steadfast in your principles ... it will spread like a wave.
If this article means something to you and you are a woman ... don't shame boys for their fits of masculinity, if they want to "play war" or drive fast or get in trouble -- simply love them and talk with them and listen. If it comes steady and with sincerity they will figure out that what you are giving is what they want to give.
Since we're all just stating opinions. This is mine.
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Posted by: Pete123 on Sep 8, 2006 7:26 AM
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Posted by: sln70 on Sep 8, 2006 7:54 AM
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Good men do what is RIGHT - not what they are bullied into doing.
Man or woman, all we have at the end of the day is our integrity. This is genderless. If you're a woman who closes her eyes to the abuse going on next door you are no less a coward than if you are a man who does the same thing. If you are a woman who cries at every little thing you are as hysterical as any man who does the same thing.
I will not deny that there are differences between men and women - I would not try to pretend that a woman's ability to connect with the emotions of others can be paralleled by most men, just as I will not try to assert that most women could be as physically strong as men are. But to translate this into some wide gender role - assigning all forms of 'protection' to men and all forms of 'subservience' to women is ludicrous.
So you can open jars and we can tell at a glance if our neighbours are angry with us. That's about as far as 'masculinity as femininity' REALLY go.
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Posted by: jontv on Sep 8, 2006 7:54 AM
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There was never any good reason to believe that attacking Iraq would prevent terrorism or make the world safer. Still, millions of people supported it. I think it had a lot to do with stupid ideas about manhood. So often, we judge masculinity not just by "toughness", but by the ability and willingness to do violence to others. We got hit hard by 9/11, and most people didn't see it coming. The macho thing to do is to hit back. It doesn't matter if hitting back will make things worse, or even if you're hitting the right person.
So we hit Iraq, even though, as the president now admits, they had nothing to do with 9/11. If not for the masculine gospel of hitting back, there is no way Bush could have garnered enough popular support to justify what has now become a disastrous war.
That kind of thing is where misguided masculinity takes us. But the mechanism is personal. So many men identify so strongly with being men, and with the twisted social image of machismo, that they fall into these kinds of reactions without even thinking about it.
You can see the kind of gender identification we're facing from many of the comments here. Many men literally can't imagine what it would be like to be a man who DOESN'T wander around worrying about how manly he is. But the world would indeed be better if people could just live the way they want to instead of obsessing about how well they conform to absurd social constructs.
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» RE: Perfect example: War on Iraq
Posted by: perri6
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Posted by: Crazy H on Sep 8, 2006 8:05 AM
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When a saber-tooth tiger comes to the mouth of the cave, it’s daddy caveperson that goes out to do battle; knowing that he will probably die in the attempt. Okay, so that’s driven by his machismo attitude; but if he had sat down and examined his feelings instead, neither his genes nor mommy caveperson’s genes would survive to the next generation.
Whether you believe in divine creation or evolution, it should be apparent that gender differences are built into the human animal. Some differences are obvious – men run faster than women; but women can run for longer distances. Men learn math and sciences easier; women learn languages easier. Why is it so hard to believe that there might be psychological differences as well? If you were designing a warrior machine – wouldn’t you design warrior operating system to drive that machine?
Yes, our society has problems because we weren’t designed to live in cities with millions of other people. But denying gender differences only exacerbate those problems. A man needs to be manly. The more you repress his natural drives, the stronger his need to assert his manliness. Take it far enough, you will drive him insane and he will express his manliness in some socially-unacceptable manner.
You aren’t going to take the warrior out of the man short of genetic manipulation, your only choice is whether to live in a society of sane warriors or insane warriors.
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» RE: eality Check
Posted by: jontv
» Clearly you have no mother
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» RE: Clearly you have no mother
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: eality Check
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: eality Check
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: eality Check
Posted by: caitlin
» You are wrong
Posted by: supercrisp
» RE: eality Check
Posted by: Robba29
» Righto Crazy!
Posted by: LDavistrueblue
» And you don't bother to take 3 years of aculturation into account???
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: supercrisp on Sep 8, 2006 8:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Appeals to Darwin, to literature, make very little sense. As someone who studies literature for how it represents gender, I can tell you that there’s a lot of solid evidence out there that gender is shaped. This fellow asks us to shape it differently, perhaps abandon it.
Better yet, before objecting read the article again. It expresses a viewpoint many academics in gender studies, literature, and psychology share. Yes, perhaps there is a certain degree of biological determinism in gender behavior, but from anyone can tell so far, nothing in our make up demands the behaviors he’s describing.
Finally: on appeals to nature. It is perfectly natural for us, as primates, to not be selective about where we defecate. Yet we are. It would seem perfectly natural for us to whip out our willy in the coffeshop for a good spanking--the apes at the zoo, our cousins, do. So if you do suspect there’s some great Nature or God that makes you as you have been shaped to be, before appealing to nature in your objection, remember that nature can justify many more behaviors than those you select as natural.
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» RE: If you object
Posted by: Crazy H
» "...the behaviors he’s describing." have nothing to do with masculinity.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: karyse on Sep 8, 2006 8:54 AM
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Posted by: brucem on Sep 8, 2006 8:54 AM
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» RE: ead "Hisstory" by Nicholas Mann
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: caitlin on Sep 8, 2006 8:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's no surprise that men who are successful at living up to our culture's definition of masculinity are also usually among the most miserable members of our society. They drink and smoke and work to excess, leading them to early heart failure and painful deaths. They are emotionally withdrawn, leading their children and their wives to feel abandoned and neglected and unloved. The protection of their egos is the most important thing in the world to them, regardless of how their egoism affects those around them.
Yes, there are good things about masculinity, like strength and providing for one's family and community and protecting them and so on. However, I don't know how those traits are solely the domain of men. Do women not exhibit strength? Do they not fight to protect their families and their communities? Do they not provide for them? Are you going to tell me that mothers, who birth their babies and have been known to fight off and kill predators who come after their babies, are you going to tell me that these women are not strong, that they do not protect their families? I dare anyone to list one stereotypical masculine trait that applies exclusively to men. You can't do it, because it doesn't exist.
I feel the same way about femininity. Yes, there are good aspects about femininity, but I ask again, how are those good aspects limited solely to women? Do men not care for other people? Do they not care to look attractive to their desired love objects? Do they not enjoy a good home and eating good food?
Time and time again, I hear that I as a feminist need to look beyond gender, that I need to stop looking at myself as a woman and look at everyone as people. Well, it's really fucking hard to do that when men call each other "girls" as an insult, and when a huge chunk of the population are still so hung up on our outdated gender roles that they still cling desperately to the belief that some traits are innately masculine or feminine. I'll tell you what - I'll start looking beyond gender the day Alternet posts an article about gender issues and it gets just as few comments as an article about Bush's war crimes.
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» "Husband" is also a verb describing a positive and applies exclusively to men.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: "Husband" is also a verb describing a positive and applies exclusively to men.
Posted by: caitlin
» "list one stereotypical masculine trait that applies exclusively to men"
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: I find it amazing...
Posted by: JCR
» Got some anger, eh?
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Got some anger, eh?
Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: Got some anger, eh?
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: I find it amazing...
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: I find it amazing... con't
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: I find it amazing... con't
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: caitlin
Posted by: hymalaia
» RE: caitlin, cont
Posted by: hymalaia
» RE: I find it amazing...
Posted by: fork
» Well done, you nailed that one
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Well done, you nailed that one
Posted by: MartianBachelor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Sep 8, 2006 9:05 AM
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Posted by: Gatsby on Sep 8, 2006 10:02 AM
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Take this writing for instance, once again, Robert Jensen, a college professor of journalism, so-called, harvests the fields of inanity for the passionately gullible with statements like, "We need to get rid of the whole idea of masculinity. It's time to abandon the claim that there are certain psychological or social traits that inherently come with being biologically male. If we can get past that, we have a chance to create a better world for men and women." What? Friends, in those three absurd sentences Robert Jensen manages to turn evolutionary biology, physical & cultural anthropology, logic, world history and human ecology on its head without skipping a beat. It continues, "That dominant conception of masculinity in U.S. culture is easily summarized: Men are assumed to be naturally competitive and aggressive, and being a real man is therefore marked by the struggle for control, conquest and domination. A man looks at the world, sees what he wants and takes it.". Now, I can't prove it, but I swear, Jensen's last sentence here derives from too many times watching the hilarious scene between Jefe and El Guapo in the comedy film "Three Amigos!" when Jefe is trying to comfort El Guapo about turning 40.
After reading a number of his essays, I can easily believe that Robert Jensen is confused and confounded by his masculinity. Jensen seems hard twisted over several issues. Most notably, he wants "white" people to share in his self-loathing and patronizing guilt concerning racial issues. No thanks, Mr. Jensen.
Robert Jensen is a professional wordsmith. He thrives in stirring up stereotypes and prejudices, then framing those grand gobbledygook generalizations as common-sense social fact. If you read Robert Jensen's work with a critical eye, I think you'll find that he is simply full of bullshit.
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» RE: The High Cost Of Robert Jensen
Posted by: Pete123
» More unfounded assertions
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: More unfounded assertions
Posted by: Gatsby
» RE: More unfounded assertions
Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: More unfounded assertions
Posted by: Gatsby
» RE: The High Cost Of Robert Jensen
Posted by: kipleitner
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jontv on Sep 8, 2006 10:27 AM
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So I ask this: Why do so many men think it's so important for us to buy into the idea that men and women are biologically different? What do we gain by it?
I would suggest that while there may be some differences, much of what we see as inherent biology is social conditioning. Even if some of these gender constructions have a biological basis, we all know people who don't conform to these supposedly inherent sex differences.
So why should we cling to these gender stereotypes? What benefits do they provide? I don't see any.
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» RE: OK, then, MEN....
Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: OK, then, MEN....
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: OK, then, MEN....
Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: OK, then, MEN....
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: OK, then, MEN....
Posted by: sweetlou
» The steaming load
Posted by: fork
» RE: OK, then, MEN....
Posted by: jontv
» RE: OK, then, MEN....
Posted by: BlueTigress
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Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Sep 8, 2006 10:46 AM
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Same guy ... same rap ...
Different day
Sheeh!
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Posted by: nonwhiteperson on Sep 8, 2006 11:45 AM
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This is an excellent, timely article.
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» RE: obert
Posted by: perri6
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Posted by: Rin Daemoko on Sep 8, 2006 11:57 AM
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I tried it for a while, but one thing I've learned about myself is that I have this really deep, powerful, and sometimes annoying inability to lie to myself. I just can't do it. No matter how hard I try ... I would sooner take my own life than live a lie.
As painful as it is and has been to be myself amidst the lies surrounding what men are supposed to be like, what people who live in a consumerist culture are supposed to be like, I know that these things would never compare to the torment I would endure if I were to adopt society's ideas of masculinity.
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» RE: Thank you.
Posted by: nonwhiteperson
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Posted by: paul_d on Sep 8, 2006 12:11 PM
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I agree with the poster who criticized Jensen's previous articles ("High Cost of Jensen"). It seems he picks emotionally charged issues such as race and gender and then writes about them in a simplistic, stereotypical and inflammatory way which is sure to "push people's buttons". This is probably how he stays popular (same as Limbaugh, OReilly, et al on the right). And judging by the number of posts, it works. But he offers nothing constructive, and these articles are very divisive. I wish Alternet would stop giving this guy a soapbox.
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» RE: Not very deep
Posted by: rellots
» RE: Not very deep
Posted by: perri6
» RE: Not very deep
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: SicfkOfBush on Sep 8, 2006 12:47 PM
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Posted by: daw13 on Sep 8, 2006 12:55 PM
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Regarding (2) he seems utterly unaware of the rich analysis of these issues already in process -- see Kate Milett, Luce Irigaray, Riane Eisler, Merlin Stone for starters. Jensen's impact is only to trivialize a truly dynamic area of social-cultural analysis.
Or would it be more accurate to observe that those who identify with him are assured to engage in forms of "activism" unlikely to have much affect on anything important, and to suggest, as the author of the comment I'm responding to does, that Jensen may not simply have grown out of touch with reality? Perhaps something has happened to cause him to redefine his priorities.
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» really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: Michelle
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» I still think it's interesting
Posted by: Michelle
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: daw13
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: Michelle
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: Seabrook
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: daw13
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: daw13
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: Michelle
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: daw13
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Posted by: judiths1_az on Sep 8, 2006 1:03 PM
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» RE: ember_AZ
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 8, 2006 1:04 PM
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Posted by: MisterMunk on Sep 8, 2006 1:08 PM
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Posted by: YHWH on Sep 8, 2006 1:12 PM
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-Always defer to you in every situation?
-Always ask what YOU want to do?
-Constantly apologize for everything they say?
-Can't make their own decisions?
-Ask you "What are you thinking?"
-Whine about all their problems and won't take any responsibility?
Yeah yeah I thought so. Then women read this and remember how they were uncontrollably attracted to some douchebag who treated them like garbage and even though they willingly put up with it forever they blame him and cry out for nice guys and gentlemen. Sorry smart wusses, they ain't talking about you. What they want is for the jerkoff asshole to start being sensitive and nice to them. You know, guys they are attracted to.
Girls are never attracted to wussiness; this essay will not change millions of years of evolution. I'll get replys to this calling me a cocky arrogant jerk, saying I'm wrong, etc. blah blah blah. Whatever, you love it.
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» RE: Its natural
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Its natural
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 8, 2006 1:15 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like the fact that there are differences between men and women. Life is better for it.
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Posted by: eyeman on Sep 8, 2006 1:47 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Men Are Flawed. Women Are flawed as much.
Life needs both men and women.
Men and Women have different roles.
Eliminating gender is unrealistic. It is never going to happen.
Denying The existance Of real built in gender Differeces is dumb.
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Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 8, 2006 1:57 PM
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» RE: Alpha Females on the Way
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Alpha Females on the Way
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Alpha Females on the Way
Posted by: happy_bullet
» RE: Alpha Females on the Way
Posted by: happy_bullet
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Posted by: eyeman on Sep 8, 2006 2:17 PM
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» RE: How Would The World Be Different If
Posted by: nonwhiteperson
» RE: How Would The World Be Different If
Posted by: AFWXMAN
» RE: How Would The World Be Different If
Posted by: nonwhiteperson
» I'd like to be a benevolent ghost
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: I'd like to be a benevolent ghost
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 8, 2006 2:41 PM
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(i.) Aristotle's "Nichomachean Ethics"
(ii.) Marcus Aurelius's "Meditations"
(iii.) Epicetus's "Discourses"
(iv.) Cicero's "De Officus".
Qualities of a man:
honorable
honest
in some ways humble
calm under pressure
has fortitude and endurance
passionate but is able to control and restrain them
generous
friendly not surly
has leadership qualities
loyal
decisive
has a sense of purpose
takes immediate action to do what is right
is kind
above all has courage
It's not about the strutting peakcock Fonz-like machismo that some people interpret "masculinity" to mean.
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» RE: What is masculinity?
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: What is masculinity?
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: What is masculinity?
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: What is masculinity?
Posted by: Golightly
» RE: What is masculinity?
Posted by: morticia
» "Masculinity" is not the generic term for human being that philosophers usually mean when they speak
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: otto on Sep 8, 2006 2:51 PM
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Posted by: owleyes on Sep 8, 2006 2:56 PM
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» RE: Good luck with your project
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Good luck with your project
Posted by: owleyes
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Posted by: Wish on Sep 8, 2006 3:33 PM
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Basically, they are really afraid. Scared little children.
Oh, and of course, then they get mad en defensive (or rather offensive) reading stuff like this.
Yeah right...just call others sissies or whatever. Just keep on deflecting attention from your own insecurities. Live your life in the fear of constant comparison with others. Be as fake as you can.
We both know your fear...
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» RE: They're not "men" at all
Posted by: owleyes
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Posted by: leftisright on Sep 8, 2006 6:41 PM
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Posted by: LDavistrueblue on Sep 8, 2006 8:35 PM
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Posted by: Lincoln fan on Sep 8, 2006 9:47 PM
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Even though liberals seem to be aware of the fact that the Democrats are Republican Lite and that both parties are inexorably moving to the right they are too paralyzed by fear of the right to do anything but vote for the lesser of the evils. We have a paper tiger by the tail and are afraid to let go. We have to be willing to let go before we can tame it.
The Democrats are no better than the Republicans. They play a perennial game of good cop/bad cop.
Liberals don't want to face that bitter truth because it looks like there's no way out. They keep hoping that the Democrats will "wake up" or "show some spine". It ain't gonna happen. Now that the Bush regime has pushed the establishment's agenda a little too far maybe the Democrats will get in. But they'll get in on the "we're not Republicans" ticket and we'll not get back much of what's been lost since the end of the Great Depression and the stagnation of the New Deal.
We can vote the Republicans out and we can vote the Democrats out but we can't vote the establishment out. People worry about crooked voting machines. It make little difference to the citizens if we can't vote those in power out; the corporatocracy
Our votes have power now before the election and that's the only time they do have power. Once they're cast their power is gone. If we act fast now we can use the power of our votes to dictate the platforms of both parties before the election. Tomorrow may be too late. Join the Lincoln Intiative and bring your friends. It's time to stand up to the two Republican parties and take control. The party won't "show some spine" but we can.
Bob Reichenbach
Director, The Lincoln Initiative.
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Posted by: NowYogi on Sep 9, 2006 4:25 AM
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I need to mention that many of the working class men I have known in my life see 'masculinity' in terms of muscle. The more muscular, the more male you are. I know many guys, unfortunately, who lift weights to gain muscle size to get the respect of other men...being the visual creatures that most men seem to be.
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» RE: A Human Being first
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: StrongNSilent on Sep 9, 2006 7:00 AM
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If you cant see that men and women are different, then I dont know if I can help ya. The sky is blue, BTW.
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» RE: bad men are not real men
Posted by: jontv
» RE: but bad women are real women
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: Subversive on Sep 9, 2006 9:41 AM
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You certainly won't be the first man to surrender his masculinity.
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Posted by: cwells on Sep 9, 2006 10:06 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being a man is a mixed blessing. As is, I'm sure, being a woman. Does that mean I want to stop being a man? That there's something wrong with it? No. I'm sure the author also claims to support diversity, and yet in this case argues against it.
Men and women are different. Don't just get over it, celebrate it. I for one like being human and being human means having a sex and all the things, good and bad, that go with. If you can't understand that then there's little doubt that you're going to be a really sad individual.
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Posted by: Mark5985 on Sep 9, 2006 2:28 PM
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Chew on that, sissy man
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Posted by: yellow on Sep 9, 2006 3:31 PM
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Posted by: yellow on Sep 9, 2006 3:36 PM
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Posted by: Citizen0001 on Sep 9, 2006 4:48 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't tell you how many supervisors I've had tell me they wish they had another employee like me who actually took initiative and took care of things, got them done, and wasn't afraid to lead. And I can't tell you how many women I've been with who have said how great it is to find a man who goes for what he wants instead of pussyfooting around and trying to be "nice".
Guys, if you're reading this, I fully support you in following the author's recommendations. Gals, if you're reading, go ahead and tell the next guy you see that all girls really want are "nice guys". I'm all for the de-masculinization of society; it'll make everything easier for ME! Although my one qualm would have to be that it might take all the challenge out of life, and I'm a man who thrives on... *gasp*... competition.
But on second thought, nah, go ahead and emasculate yourselves, men. Just means more frustrated employers in search of a bold, dynamic, competitive worker who gets things done, and more sexually frustrated women in search of a man who goes after what he wants and gets what he wants. And that's good, for me.
Cheers,
Citizen0001
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» RE: I Would Love It if More Men Thought Like the Author
Posted by: aahb21
» RE: I Would Love It if More Men Thought Like the Author
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: Lucky Lou on Sep 9, 2006 9:20 PM
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Posted by: Ktflake on Sep 9, 2006 9:49 PM
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» Excellent example of manipulation by shame
Posted by: happy_bullet
» RE: xcellent example of manipulation by shame
Posted by: Ktflake
» RE: xcellent example of manipulation by shame
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: a.nonymous on Sep 10, 2006 5:34 AM
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Man up, nancy boy! The only bad thing about masculinity is your lack of it.
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Posted by: nordicthunder on Sep 10, 2006 7:32 AM
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Posted by: luminousball on Sep 10, 2006 9:48 AM
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» RE: Iron Man
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: solarjin on Sep 10, 2006 10:04 AM
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Chivalry is not yet dead - I would say that is my main contention in saving parts of our masculinity, we must not eradicate all of our imbred heritage - because Darwin was right, survival does happen most fortunately to the fittest - it then requires strength and courage (of the fit) to trustfully examine our fitness. Who in fact succeds in observing their own health other than the healthy human? Who is strong? Who is wise? What is natural...
Masculinity must stay, so must femininity. Though our barbaric nurturing must resign. We can surely re-define what is healthy and best constructive for our culture, then redefine masculinity and femininity as traits of the healthy sexes.
Homosexulaity, which is more or less the masculine model (naturaly male) going against his natural definition and concerning himself with the feminine model (thus unnaturally feminine.) This adjective, which is no better than the asexual... could become indeed indecent when humans have figured out what is naturally male and naturaly female is naturaly prescribed.
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» Ah! Yes, but look how your obnoxious, affected tone belies your lack of anything interesting to say
Posted by: sqqp
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Posted by: crd on Sep 10, 2006 5:35 PM
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If you are interested in these issues, you might want to look at my book, Exposing Men: The Science and Politics of Male Reproduction (Oxford University Press, 2006) Prof. Cynthia R. Daniels (Political Science, Rutgers University, New Jersey)
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» RE: xposing Male reproductive harm
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: CaliforniaWill on Sep 10, 2006 5:59 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While it's true that many men in Red & Blue states still cling, like dinosaurs, to outmoded behavior (and that's never more true than in Washington, DC), there are generations worth of men whose behavior belies all the b.s. spewed up in this article. Just as the stereotype of the young Southern Man is all about "pickup trucks, RCs, and Moonpies," so this stereotype of "masculinity" is about as viable in the modern world. Get a clue, journalists -- situations and circumstances breed the behavior responses, not the other way around.
Commercials and advertising doesn't present nor promote individuality, hence they fall back on the easy labels and homogenous "types," i.e. the beer, burger, and brainless man and the hot, caring, saavy woman. Guess what? Although, they exist, it's not the "total them."
There was a time that journalists actually knew (if sometimes superficially) what they were writing about. That time has evidently passed for most "practicing" the journalism trade.
Today, they drag out old school thinking and re-write the cliches and think they've made socially important "news." They haven't. All they've done is re-cycle the same old-same old.
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Posted by: dgrinn on Sep 11, 2006 12:08 AM
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Posted by: aks451 on Sep 11, 2006 9:02 AM
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Example # 1: A house catches fire. What would you rather have happen, the strongest in the community take charge (male or female), save lives and battle the blaze, or sit around gathering consensus on who should do what while the house burns and people die?
Example # 2: Two men are interested in the same woman. Do the two men then cooperate to share the woman? Or does the woman typically choose the one she prefers? How does she choose? Can anyone not see the competition inherent in this most common situation? Whether or not masculine or androgynous traits are preferred, the element of competition is there and always will be.
Example # 3: Two women are interested in the same man. In how many instances in all of history have women, with their superior feminine qualities of consensus building, expert relationship maintenance, sharing and cooperation, have ever "cooperated" to decide who gets the man? How many women would talk it over with their girlfriends and bow out if the man is giving her signals of interest too?
It is unrealistic to choose cooperation over competition. Both methods of decision making and maintaining social order are evident and necessary among most species. Predators cooperate on the hunt, AND compete for mates and leadership within the group. Prey animals cooperate to defend against predators AND they compete for mates.
The same is true for humanity. We cooperate in our endeavors AND compete for leadership / mates / resources etc. Some things we share, some things we fight for - male or female. The more precious the resource, or the more coveted the social position, the harder people will fight for it. Doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman.
Aggressiveness and a take charge attitude are not strictly male qualities. Dominating an opponent is the only way to prevail in combat. These are necessary qualities in dire situations, whatever the gender. We couldn't eliminate competition from our affairs if we tried. But we can change the ground rules of competition and delineate where and how it is appropriate to be aggressive, and where it is not.
And by the way - in offering (un)persuasive arguments to support his position, thus attempting to win people over to his point of view in the marketplace of ideas, this "professor" has undermined his entire thesis of emphasizing cooperation.
Way to go, Man!
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» Straw man.
Posted by: sqqp
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Posted by: MartianBachelor on Sep 11, 2006 6:45 PM
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Posted by: happy_bullet on Sep 11, 2006 8:01 PM
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Some of this stuff will never change, no matter how much people SAY they want it to:
(*) A man that refuses to compete will lose to one that does. One that says he does not has an advantage though.
(*) Women will choose winners of competition over losers. Ones that say they don't will appear more focussed on compassion and thus more desireable though.
Society does have a toxic view of masculinity, that is it's focus on "aggression" and "violence". Which are, to my mind, not key traits.
It is incorrect that there is a focus on this in business, or even the military. In those areas, there is a focus on "leadership". Which is a coexistence between aggression, ambition and cooperativeness. Quite simply, in many areas anyone with a focus on "seizing power", will simply be opposed by other people and go nowhere.
Actually, these days those institutions have adopted a politically correct view of "aggression and ambition" as being "bad" and have tried to stamp it out by emasculating the modern male. This has only really had the effect of making the modern male more covertly angry. The current corporate climate is more about covert political grabs for power. Not exactly masculine.
When I think of a masculine character, I always think of someone like King Arthur. The guy ruled Camelot justly and had a round table to eliminate any hierarchy between him and his knights. Nevertheless when it was time to take action and compete he stepped up.
Stand up for what is right, show honour, display leadership.
What is bad about that?
Frankly the article strikes me as typical of the self-loathing that has afflicted men of today's society. More than anything there is a crisis of MANHOOD, with masculinity being demonised as something that it is not.
I submit that an approach that would have a higher likelihood of increasing cooperation and compassion among men than this would be to hold the good things about masculinity in a positive light rather than just blanket demonizing it.
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Posted by: BlueTigress on Sep 11, 2006 10:27 PM
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I am married to a guy that most of you would have no trouble following. He is decisive and gives orders well. He can fix just about anything and drive anything that has at least 2 wheels.
He also expects me to know or be able to do everything he does. I have never been able to get away with saying "Honey the car is doing ____" and having him just fix it. I have to be able to at least take a shot at troubleshooting it.
He is also a caring, emotionally sensitive human being who likes to be able to help people when they need it.
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Posted by: happy_bullet on Sep 12, 2006 1:45 AM
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Looks like men kinda LIKE the "stereotyped" role of masculinity and furthermore think it is beneficial.
Funny that most of the people who agreed were women, and frankly that touchy-feely one pretending, oh I mean, saying, they were a guy sounded a bit suspect. Male castration, its a popular romantic fantasy. If we're to believe romance novels we marry them once that's accomplished... LOL.
I'd be willing to say 2 in 200 men agree with the article (and that's only because I'm including the writer of it).
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» RE: I Think It's Safe To Say This Article Is Disagreed With
Posted by: sqqp
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Posted by: juliandroms on Sep 12, 2006 2:36 AM
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Since you are someone who embraces diversity and since you are someone who opposes moral absolutism, I'm sure you will understand.
(And in case I'm wrong and you are not someone who embraces diversity, but you are a moral absolutist, I don't know what to tell you. I could listen to you, or I could listen to someone like Jimmy Swaggart -- I could listen to a lot of people. But alas, I prefer instead to listen to myself. QED I don't care what you think.)
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» Moral Imperialism masquerading as Moral Relativism.
Posted by: sqqp
» RE: Moral Imperialism masquerading as Moral Relativism.
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: Jim Shaw on Sep 13, 2006 1:21 PM
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Here is a representative example of emails I get all the time, which are kind of funny but also kind of sad, and which I think illustrate his point:
International Rules of Manhood
1: Under no circumstances may two men share an umbrella
2: It is okay for a man to cry under the following circumstances:
a. When a heroic dog dies to save its master.
b. The moment Angelina Jolie starts unbuttoning her blouse.
c. After wrecking your boss' car.
d. One hour, 12 minutes, 37 seconds into "The Crying Game".
e. When she is using her teeth.
3: Any Man who brings a camera to a bachelor party may be legally
killed and eaten by his buddies.
4: Unless he murdered someone in your family, you must bail a friend
out of jail within 12 hours.
5: If you've known a guy for more than 24 hours, his sister is off
limits forever, unless you actually marry her. This is VERY important.
6: Moaning about the brand of free beer in a buddy's fridge is
forbidden. However, complain at will if the temperature is unsuitable.
7: No man shall ever be required to buy a birthday present for another
man. In fact, even remembering your buddy's birthday is strictly
optional.
8: On a road trip, the strongest bladder determines pit stops, not the
weakest.
9: When stumbling upon other guys watching a sporting event, you may
ask the score of the game in progress, but you may never, ever ask who's
playing..
10: You may flatulate in front of a woman only after you have brought
her to climax. If you trap her head under the covers for the purpose of
flatulent entertainment, she's officially your girlfriend.
11: It is permissible to drink a fruity alcohol drink only when you're
sunning on a tropical beach... and it's delivered by a topless
supermodel ..and it's free.
12: Only in situations of moral and/or physical peril are you allowed
to kick another guy in the nuts.
13: Unless you're in prison, never fight naked.
14: Friends don't let friends wear Speedos. Ever. Issue closed.
15: If a man's fly is down, that's his problem, you didn't see
anything, and why were you looking in the first place?
etc.
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» RE: Case in Point
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Case in Point
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: AHuman on Sep 15, 2006 7:36 AM
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» RE: try a Martian view of the mess
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: Neilium on Sep 16, 2006 4:50 AM
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I would like to offer a suggestion to those posters here who I think may be better equipped with the following.
Eric Berne ' Games People Play'
and Warren Farrell's 'Why Men Are The Way They Are'
and also his more recent " 'The Myth Of Male Power'
Of course my opinion about why the western world has stuffed it for the rest of the planets inhabitants are Pure Greed combined with the lack of basic survival skills.
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Posted by: AlphaHusky on Sep 21, 2006 10:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jensen is talking about masculinity- not men! Even with all the agreements among social liberals about so many issues we are all facing together during this time of domination by neo-cons, it seems that few grasp that feminism has failed. When reading these comments, it seems that men are simply dismissing the article out of hand. It appears that a number of men read this article, got pissed off, and decided to post in a rather aggressive, self-righteous manner. Does that not "say it all" about the state of gender relations and how far feminism still has to go?
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Posted by: pbr90 on Sep 26, 2006 7:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The standard for males is more to deny that emotions exist much in the form of Boston's Globe correspondent author, Donald M. Murray's 9/26/2006 article, Shutting Down Emotions in order to do combat.
Both articles portray the effects of ignoring emotions and how sexist a world is created by male refusal to let emotions influence how they conduct their lives - and may well be psychotic in a psychologically philosophical way that creates for women of the world one that is not only surreal, but harmful in its character with relation to human characteristics.
The dichotomy of women honored and relied upon for their emotional breadth, and warmth, and males who ignore their emotions to do daily life or combat is a situation that creates the gender divide that cannot be closed since they are at two extremes of the human emotional spectrum.
Whether males home from combat are deadened to emotional substance, or prefer to brace their emotional selves by ignoring their emotions, there is great harm for men and for women and for children in allowing men the license to ignore the emotional world and a world where at least 3/4 of the people in it accept emotions as necessary to human expression.
Measuring males by their ability to ignore emotions may unnecessarily thrust upon the world a world of heathen response that is not conducive to civility, to kindness, or to justice. Men have long known to be out of touch with their emotions, but the reality is that men have no need of emotions because in their dealings with other men, emotions are unacceptable, and shed like a snake's skin that is not useful.
The schizophrenia that at home they can convert to emotional beings is unrealistic and a highly toxic anathema to women or to children whose lives exist within the boundaries of sanity where emotions are assets, not detriments. This single feature, alone, may be responsible for the entire gender war and certainly contributes to domestic violence around the world where both women and children are subject to male lack of emotion and their inability to acknowledge their emotions long enough to learn to control them.
Using anger to overcome their ignorance of emotions, or because they have never learned to manage them properly results in an extraordinary burden of schoolyard, work, and dometic violence that the world must bear to indulge what has come to be the essence of male masculinity, wrongfully, and ignorantly.
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» RE: All the who-what?
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: jparsons on Sep 8, 2006 12:29 AM
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society embracing such views any time soon.
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» RE: I wish more human beings thought along these lines
Posted by: perri6
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Posted by: jparsons on Sep 8, 2006 12:29 AM
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society embracing such views any time soon.
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» Total BS- Author confusing masculinity w/ Capitalism
Posted by: psychochurch
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Posted by: UKMale on Sep 8, 2006 12:47 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course gender defines our psycology, our physical body, out responses, our everything. This article, by trying to deny masculinity, must, by definition, deny femininity. If anyone posted an article here saying that women should stop being the loving, caring, mothering, wonderful beings that they are, there would be outrage. Millions of years have made us all what we are, and we have come a long way on the road to civilisation. Yes there are still "bad" people, rapists, abusing their strength and physicality, paedophiles abusing their position, but we do not have conditions such as Darfur, with daily rape, murder, destruction on a huge scale.
We are not perfect, and probably never will be. But we have, men and women together, each using their different skills and attributes, made a "decent" place to live.
Men and women are different, some from Mars, some from Venus (politicians from somewhere totally unknown to us), but we are getting better, we are making headway, together.
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» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: SBK
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: frepi
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: dgrinn
» yes true, we do not yet know what a matriarchy would look like...
Posted by: Blue Heron
» We Must Balance the Scales
Posted by: errandchild
» Feminine and Masculine embodied in one
Posted by: kc4choice
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: Livetta
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: Ouelle
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: Ktflake
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: Robba29
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: drmflorida
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: Byronik
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: techphile
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: dadmoffatt
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Posted by: Sojourner on Sep 8, 2006 12:47 AM
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The Wall Street deal room as the example of problems with masculinity sounds like a soap opera or Hollywood melodrama. Competitive behavior is survival behavior in our world. In our world, taking from someone else, even while it may be illegal, is justified as the first law of nature. So it seems that Jensen really ought to be talking about sin.
Secularizing destructive behavior by blaming it on masculinity does not alter the fact that so long as we live with others who believe that it is better to take for themselves, that it is better to warehouse net worth beyond all reasonable requirements, that accumulation demonstrates who are among the elect, that conspicuous consumption is fun, and that he who dies with the most toys wins, we might just as well have stayed in the African trees.
Men are also capable of cooperation. Is that what he is getting at? If so, yeah, let’s hear about that.
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» Did you actually read what you comment on?
Posted by: supercrisp
» RE: A little confusion goes a long way.
Posted by: wudhi
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Posted by: rsaxto on Sep 8, 2006 1:12 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: survival
Posted by: happy_bullet
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Posted by: HeroesAll on Sep 8, 2006 2:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First up, yes, there are currently different social expectations for the behaviour of men and of women. Things that are acceptable for men are not acceptable for women, and vice versa. Anyone who's ever heard someone refer to a man as a 'pussy', or a 'girl', or to behaviour as 'gay', knows this is true. Similarly, women who do not toe the line of acceptable feminine behaviour get maligned in a similar way.
Second, many of you make the mistake of assuming that our behaviour is ingrained in our gender. If you can prove this, then there's a science career ahead of you. If not, then stop claiming it. The old nature-nurture debate has been going on for decades, and will continue to rage for decades more.
If anyone doubts, remember the method of scientific proof: if you're going to prove that gender roles are biologically determined, then you've got to prove that they still exist in the absence of social conditioning. In simpler words, if you believe that having a dick makes you naturally competitive, you've got to be able to point to a non-patriarchal society where dick == competitive. Can you? If not, then maybe rethink your belief.
I'd be more convinced by a theory that said that competitive behaviour was fostered by commercialisation and capitalism. After all, there are healthy non-capitalist societies (or have been), and they tend to show far less competition. Note that I'm not referring to the Soviet Union here, so don't start frothing.
As for those who refer to 'the law of the jungle', this is a bit of a furphy designed to make men in suits feel better about themselves. Yes, animals eat each other. Yes, animals in the same tribe fight. No, that doesn't mean that competition is the sole driver of all of the natural world.
Look at any animal that lives in packs or herds: they co-operate to drive off predators, for example, or to hunt. Humans by themselves are pretty flabby creatures, but the great strength of humans is in co-operation, and the ability to think beyond the next meal or the next root (at least I'd like to think so).
In fact, in the animal kindgom, co-operation is far more prevalent, and far more productive, than competition. Happens with plants, too, if you're interested. And between one genus (is that the correct term?) and another, between one kingdom and another.
So the author is saying something sensible and relevant after all. Pity some of you dismiss it out of hand, without thinking.
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» RE: It's amazing how many posters here...
Posted by: Lizmv
» Law of the jungle
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Law of the jungle
Posted by: Lauren
» A little knowledge ....
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: somewhat amazing ...
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: somewhat amazing ...
Posted by: laoma
» RE: somewhat amazing ...
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: somewhat amazing ...
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: somewhat amazing ...
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» Does it count if I giggled like a little school girl at many places in this article?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Does it count if I giggled like a little school girl at many places in this article?
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Does it count if I giggled like a little school girl at many places in this article?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: It's amazing how many posters here...
Posted by: redjenny
» we evolved from rodents
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: we evolved from rodents
Posted by: mac macgillicuddy
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Posted by: ChristopherLL on Sep 8, 2006 3:50 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is glaring in its absence is the works in literature, human development, anthroplogy, mythology, evolutionary biology and most important psychosexual, psychosocial and attachment theory. The two fundamental unconcsiouc forces are aggression and sexuality. Aggression is learned at an early age and is dependent on the how anger and power. Aggression is a force of nature as is sexuality and cannot be altered, denied or eliminated just by saying "no." It is essentially a defensive reaction to perceived threat and is fueled by fear and anger. In its healthy state aggession is a powerful energy for productivity, health and happipness. In an unhealthy state it becomes a source of revenge, retribution and destruction. It all depends on the balance.
This is all a complex issue an needs serious and committed attention, discussion and action. But it will not change by idealogical whims or judgmental accusations. It is the balance of all opposites in nature and not the elimination of their differences. Differences should be acknowledged and celebrated not obliterated. What I can say is this culture has taken competition to a form of worship. At the heart of competition is power. Men use force to assert their power and women use their bodies. They are both expoited by the society. The other characteristics that encompass both women and men are then subordinated or ignored.
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» RE: It Is Not So Simple
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: It Is Not So Simple
Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: It Is Not So Simple
Posted by: Ktflake
» RE: It Is Not So Simple
Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: It Is Not So Simple
Posted by: Ktflake
» The pot calls the kettle a kitchen item...
Posted by: supercrisp
» RE: The pot calls the kettle a kitchen item...
Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: It Is Not So Simple
Posted by: Annarisse
» RE: It Is Not So Simple
Posted by: dadmoffatt
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Posted by: ShoShenQ on Sep 8, 2006 3:51 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Not laughing...
Posted by: igoeja
» Why...is it threatening your sexuality?
Posted by: Bev
» Hey laughing boy
Posted by: supercrisp
» I think,,,,
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
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Posted by: Lincoln fan on Sep 8, 2006 3:57 AM
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Bob Reichenbach
Director, The Lincoln Initiative.
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» Charley proved women were not inferior -- he still rules
Posted by: cdtomei
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Posted by: YogiBear on Sep 8, 2006 3:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is worded incorectly -- as anyone who knows aggressive men will tell, they are equally dangerous to other men as they are to women. Our murder rate is driven by young men killing young men.
As for male firefighters -- they are indeed very brave and do perhaps exhibit the best of what masculinity has to offer. But they are also some of the worst offenders in the "toxic" class as well. So with one comes the other, apparently.
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» RE: Some quibbles - Toxic firefighters
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Some quibbles - Toxic firefighters
Posted by: AFWXMAN
» Thanks Yogi
Posted by: supercrisp
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Posted by: igoeja on Sep 8, 2006 4:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, using Hofsteder's masculinity ratings of countries correlated against social outcomes, gender-divided countries tend to have less good social outcomes. Income inequality, average hours worked, and poor academic performance tend to correlate positively with masculine, gender-divided ratings. The more equal societies, which include France and the Scandinavian countries, generally have better quality of life measures as compared to the more gender-divided ones, e.g., US, UK, and Italy.
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» RE: Ir is Facile...
Posted by: cold2touch
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Posted by: Colin on Sep 8, 2006 5:10 AM
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I wonder if anyone should mention this to the Red Cross? (1863)
Like all your arguments, Cryofan, your post is big on joining up dots that don't necessarily exist.
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Posted by: cold2touch on Sep 8, 2006 6:14 AM
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 8, 2006 6:20 AM
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A man no woman would touch with a ten foot pole. And a woman complaining about how there are no "real" men anymore.
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» RE: Be careful what you ask for
Posted by: agapegirl
» RE: Be careful what you ask for
Posted by: wearesilhouettes
» RE: Be careful what you ask for
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: Be careful what you ask for
Posted by: cmaukonen
» So short.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Be careful what you ask for
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Virtues Only So Because of Systemic Flaws
Posted by: igoeja
» Waaait a minute...
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: Waaait a minute...
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» What do you end up wih?
Posted by: Lizmv
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Posted by: moontime on Sep 8, 2006 6:22 AM
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Posted by: YHWH on Sep 8, 2006 6:38 AM
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» RE: Good Article!
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Good Article!
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Good Article!
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 8, 2006 6:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: hayesad on Sep 8, 2006 6:55 AM
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» RE: The FakeLeft wants to make it Man vs Woman, White vs Black, just so it's not The Rich vs The Mas
Posted by: babs
» that there may be distinction without meaning
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: that there may be distinction without meaning
Posted by: hayesad
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Posted by: Bev on Sep 8, 2006 6:57 AM
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Posted by: oogiboogi on Sep 8, 2006 7:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This revolution doesn't start in the head ... it will need to start in the hearts of men -- and it is learned through patterning. So if this article means something to you and you are a man ... don't look to programs or doctrine. Just be thoughtful and strong, loving and decisive and steadfast in your principles ... it will spread like a wave.
If this article means something to you and you are a woman ... don't shame boys for their fits of masculinity, if they want to "play war" or drive fast or get in trouble -- simply love them and talk with them and listen. If it comes steady and with sincerity they will figure out that what you are giving is what they want to give.
Since we're all just stating opinions. This is mine.
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Posted by: Pete123 on Sep 8, 2006 7:26 AM
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Posted by: sln70 on Sep 8, 2006 7:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good men do what is RIGHT - not what they are bullied into doing.
Man or woman, all we have at the end of the day is our integrity. This is genderless. If you're a woman who closes her eyes to the abuse going on next door you are no less a coward than if you are a man who does the same thing. If you are a woman who cries at every little thing you are as hysterical as any man who does the same thing.
I will not deny that there are differences between men and women - I would not try to pretend that a woman's ability to connect with the emotions of others can be paralleled by most men, just as I will not try to assert that most women could be as physically strong as men are. But to translate this into some wide gender role - assigning all forms of 'protection' to men and all forms of 'subservience' to women is ludicrous.
So you can open jars and we can tell at a glance if our neighbours are angry with us. That's about as far as 'masculinity as femininity' REALLY go.
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Posted by: jontv on Sep 8, 2006 7:54 AM
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There was never any good reason to believe that attacking Iraq would prevent terrorism or make the world safer. Still, millions of people supported it. I think it had a lot to do with stupid ideas about manhood. So often, we judge masculinity not just by "toughness", but by the ability and willingness to do violence to others. We got hit hard by 9/11, and most people didn't see it coming. The macho thing to do is to hit back. It doesn't matter if hitting back will make things worse, or even if you're hitting the right person.
So we hit Iraq, even though, as the president now admits, they had nothing to do with 9/11. If not for the masculine gospel of hitting back, there is no way Bush could have garnered enough popular support to justify what has now become a disastrous war.
That kind of thing is where misguided masculinity takes us. But the mechanism is personal. So many men identify so strongly with being men, and with the twisted social image of machismo, that they fall into these kinds of reactions without even thinking about it.
You can see the kind of gender identification we're facing from many of the comments here. Many men literally can't imagine what it would be like to be a man who DOESN'T wander around worrying about how manly he is. But the world would indeed be better if people could just live the way they want to instead of obsessing about how well they conform to absurd social constructs.
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» RE: Perfect example: War on Iraq
Posted by: perri6
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Posted by: Crazy H on Sep 8, 2006 8:05 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When a saber-tooth tiger comes to the mouth of the cave, it’s daddy caveperson that goes out to do battle; knowing that he will probably die in the attempt. Okay, so that’s driven by his machismo attitude; but if he had sat down and examined his feelings instead, neither his genes nor mommy caveperson’s genes would survive to the next generation.
Whether you believe in divine creation or evolution, it should be apparent that gender differences are built into the human animal. Some differences are obvious – men run faster than women; but women can run for longer distances. Men learn math and sciences easier; women learn languages easier. Why is it so hard to believe that there might be psychological differences as well? If you were designing a warrior machine – wouldn’t you design warrior operating system to drive that machine?
Yes, our society has problems because we weren’t designed to live in cities with millions of other people. But denying gender differences only exacerbate those problems. A man needs to be manly. The more you repress his natural drives, the stronger his need to assert his manliness. Take it far enough, you will drive him insane and he will express his manliness in some socially-unacceptable manner.
You aren’t going to take the warrior out of the man short of genetic manipulation, your only choice is whether to live in a society of sane warriors or insane warriors.
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» RE: eality Check
Posted by: jontv
» Clearly you have no mother
Posted by: sln70
» RE: Clearly you have no mother
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: eality Check
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: eality Check
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: eality Check
Posted by: caitlin
» You are wrong
Posted by: supercrisp
» RE: eality Check
Posted by: Robba29
» Righto Crazy!
Posted by: LDavistrueblue
» And you don't bother to take 3 years of aculturation into account???
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Comments are closed-
Posted by: supercrisp on Sep 8, 2006 8:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Appeals to Darwin, to literature, make very little sense. As someone who studies literature for how it represents gender, I can tell you that there’s a lot of solid evidence out there that gender is shaped. This fellow asks us to shape it differently, perhaps abandon it.
Better yet, before objecting read the article again. It expresses a viewpoint many academics in gender studies, literature, and psychology share. Yes, perhaps there is a certain degree of biological determinism in gender behavior, but from anyone can tell so far, nothing in our make up demands the behaviors he’s describing.
Finally: on appeals to nature. It is perfectly natural for us, as primates, to not be selective about where we defecate. Yet we are. It would seem perfectly natural for us to whip out our willy in the coffeshop for a good spanking--the apes at the zoo, our cousins, do. So if you do suspect there’s some great Nature or God that makes you as you have been shaped to be, before appealing to nature in your objection, remember that nature can justify many more behaviors than those you select as natural.
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» RE: If you object
Posted by: Crazy H
» "...the behaviors he’s describing." have nothing to do with masculinity.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: karyse on Sep 8, 2006 8:54 AM
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Posted by: brucem on Sep 8, 2006 8:54 AM
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» RE: ead "Hisstory" by Nicholas Mann
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: caitlin on Sep 8, 2006 8:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's no surprise that men who are successful at living up to our culture's definition of masculinity are also usually among the most miserable members of our society. They drink and smoke and work to excess, leading them to early heart failure and painful deaths. They are emotionally withdrawn, leading their children and their wives to feel abandoned and neglected and unloved. The protection of their egos is the most important thing in the world to them, regardless of how their egoism affects those around them.
Yes, there are good things about masculinity, like strength and providing for one's family and community and protecting them and so on. However, I don't know how those traits are solely the domain of men. Do women not exhibit strength? Do they not fight to protect their families and their communities? Do they not provide for them? Are you going to tell me that mothers, who birth their babies and have been known to fight off and kill predators who come after their babies, are you going to tell me that these women are not strong, that they do not protect their families? I dare anyone to list one stereotypical masculine trait that applies exclusively to men. You can't do it, because it doesn't exist.
I feel the same way about femininity. Yes, there are good aspects about femininity, but I ask again, how are those good aspects limited solely to women? Do men not care for other people? Do they not care to look attractive to their desired love objects? Do they not enjoy a good home and eating good food?
Time and time again, I hear that I as a feminist need to look beyond gender, that I need to stop looking at myself as a woman and look at everyone as people. Well, it's really fucking hard to do that when men call each other "girls" as an insult, and when a huge chunk of the population are still so hung up on our outdated gender roles that they still cling desperately to the belief that some traits are innately masculine or feminine. I'll tell you what - I'll start looking beyond gender the day Alternet posts an article about gender issues and it gets just as few comments as an article about Bush's war crimes.
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» "Husband" is also a verb describing a positive and applies exclusively to men.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: "Husband" is also a verb describing a positive and applies exclusively to men.
Posted by: caitlin
» "list one stereotypical masculine trait that applies exclusively to men"
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: I find it amazing...
Posted by: JCR
» Got some anger, eh?
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Got some anger, eh?
Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: Got some anger, eh?
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: I find it amazing...
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: I find it amazing... con't
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: I find it amazing... con't
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: caitlin
Posted by: hymalaia
» RE: caitlin, cont
Posted by: hymalaia
» RE: I find it amazing...
Posted by: fork
» Well done, you nailed that one
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Well done, you nailed that one
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Sep 8, 2006 9:05 AM
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Posted by: Gatsby on Sep 8, 2006 10:02 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Take this writing for instance, once again, Robert Jensen, a college professor of journalism, so-called, harvests the fields of inanity for the passionately gullible with statements like, "We need to get rid of the whole idea of masculinity. It's time to abandon the claim that there are certain psychological or social traits that inherently come with being biologically male. If we can get past that, we have a chance to create a better world for men and women." What? Friends, in those three absurd sentences Robert Jensen manages to turn evolutionary biology, physical & cultural anthropology, logic, world history and human ecology on its head without skipping a beat. It continues, "That dominant conception of masculinity in U.S. culture is easily summarized: Men are assumed to be naturally competitive and aggressive, and being a real man is therefore marked by the struggle for control, conquest and domination. A man looks at the world, sees what he wants and takes it.". Now, I can't prove it, but I swear, Jensen's last sentence here derives from too many times watching the hilarious scene between Jefe and El Guapo in the comedy film "Three Amigos!" when Jefe is trying to comfort El Guapo about turning 40.
After reading a number of his essays, I can easily believe that Robert Jensen is confused and confounded by his masculinity. Jensen seems hard twisted over several issues. Most notably, he wants "white" people to share in his self-loathing and patronizing guilt concerning racial issues. No thanks, Mr. Jensen.
Robert Jensen is a professional wordsmith. He thrives in stirring up stereotypes and prejudices, then framing those grand gobbledygook generalizations as common-sense social fact. If you read Robert Jensen's work with a critical eye, I think you'll find that he is simply full of bullshit.
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» RE: The High Cost Of Robert Jensen
Posted by: Pete123
» More unfounded assertions
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: More unfounded assertions
Posted by: Gatsby
» RE: More unfounded assertions
Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: More unfounded assertions
Posted by: Gatsby
» RE: The High Cost Of Robert Jensen
Posted by: kipleitner
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jontv on Sep 8, 2006 10:27 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So I ask this: Why do so many men think it's so important for us to buy into the idea that men and women are biologically different? What do we gain by it?
I would suggest that while there may be some differences, much of what we see as inherent biology is social conditioning. Even if some of these gender constructions have a biological basis, we all know people who don't conform to these supposedly inherent sex differences.
So why should we cling to these gender stereotypes? What benefits do they provide? I don't see any.
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» RE: OK, then, MEN....
Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: OK, then, MEN....
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: OK, then, MEN....
Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: OK, then, MEN....
Posted by: caitlin
» RE: OK, then, MEN....
Posted by: sweetlou
» The steaming load
Posted by: fork
» RE: OK, then, MEN....
Posted by: jontv
» RE: OK, then, MEN....
Posted by: BlueTigress
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Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Sep 8, 2006 10:46 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Same guy ... same rap ...
Different day
Sheeh!
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Posted by: nonwhiteperson on Sep 8, 2006 11:45 AM
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This is an excellent, timely article.
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» RE: obert
Posted by: perri6
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Posted by: Rin Daemoko on Sep 8, 2006 11:57 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I tried it for a while, but one thing I've learned about myself is that I have this really deep, powerful, and sometimes annoying inability to lie to myself. I just can't do it. No matter how hard I try ... I would sooner take my own life than live a lie.
As painful as it is and has been to be myself amidst the lies surrounding what men are supposed to be like, what people who live in a consumerist culture are supposed to be like, I know that these things would never compare to the torment I would endure if I were to adopt society's ideas of masculinity.
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» RE: Thank you.
Posted by: nonwhiteperson
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Posted by: paul_d on Sep 8, 2006 12:11 PM
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I agree with the poster who criticized Jensen's previous articles ("High Cost of Jensen"). It seems he picks emotionally charged issues such as race and gender and then writes about them in a simplistic, stereotypical and inflammatory way which is sure to "push people's buttons". This is probably how he stays popular (same as Limbaugh, OReilly, et al on the right). And judging by the number of posts, it works. But he offers nothing constructive, and these articles are very divisive. I wish Alternet would stop giving this guy a soapbox.
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» RE: Not very deep
Posted by: rellots
» RE: Not very deep
Posted by: perri6
» RE: Not very deep
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: SicfkOfBush on Sep 8, 2006 12:47 PM
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Posted by: daw13 on Sep 8, 2006 12:55 PM
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Regarding (2) he seems utterly unaware of the rich analysis of these issues already in process -- see Kate Milett, Luce Irigaray, Riane Eisler, Merlin Stone for starters. Jensen's impact is only to trivialize a truly dynamic area of social-cultural analysis.
Or would it be more accurate to observe that those who identify with him are assured to engage in forms of "activism" unlikely to have much affect on anything important, and to suggest, as the author of the comment I'm responding to does, that Jensen may not simply have grown out of touch with reality? Perhaps something has happened to cause him to redefine his priorities.
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» really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: Michelle
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» I still think it's interesting
Posted by: Michelle
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: daw13
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: Michelle
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: Seabrook
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: daw13
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: daw13
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: Michelle
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^
Posted by: daw13
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Posted by: judiths1_az on Sep 8, 2006 1:03 PM
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» RE: ember_AZ
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 8, 2006 1:04 PM
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Posted by: MisterMunk on Sep 8, 2006 1:08 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: YHWH on Sep 8, 2006 1:12 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-Always defer to you in every situation?
-Always ask what YOU want to do?
-Constantly apologize for everything they say?
-Can't make their own decisions?
-Ask you "What are you thinking?"
-Whine about all their problems and won't take any responsibility?
Yeah yeah I thought so. Then women read this and remember how they were uncontrollably attracted to some douchebag who treated them like garbage and even though they willingly put up with it forever they blame him and cry out for nice guys and gentlemen. Sorry smart wusses, they ain't talking about you. What they want is for the jerkoff asshole to start being sensitive and nice to them. You know, guys they are attracted to.
Girls are never attracted to wussiness; this essay will not change millions of years of evolution. I'll get replys to this calling me a cocky arrogant jerk, saying I'm wrong, etc. blah blah blah. Whatever, you love it.
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» RE: Its natural
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Its natural
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 8, 2006 1:15 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like the fact that there are differences between men and women. Life is better for it.
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Posted by: eyeman on Sep 8, 2006 1:47 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Men Are Flawed. Women Are flawed as much.
Life needs both men and women.
Men and Women have different roles.
Eliminating gender is unrealistic. It is never going to happen.
Denying The existance Of real built in gender Differeces is dumb.
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Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 8, 2006 1:57 PM
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» RE: Alpha Females on the Way
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Alpha Females on the Way
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Alpha Females on the Way
Posted by: happy_bullet
» RE: Alpha Females on the Way
Posted by: happy_bullet
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Posted by: eyeman on Sep 8, 2006 2:17 PM
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» RE: How Would The World Be Different If
Posted by: nonwhiteperson
» RE: How Would The World Be Different If
Posted by: AFWXMAN
» RE: How Would The World Be Different If
Posted by: nonwhiteperson
» I'd like to be a benevolent ghost
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: I'd like to be a benevolent ghost
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 8, 2006 2:41 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(i.) Aristotle's "Nichomachean Ethics"
(ii.) Marcus Aurelius's "Meditations"
(iii.) Epicetus's "Discourses"
(iv.) Cicero's "De Officus".
Qualities of a man:
honorable
honest
in some ways humble
calm under pressure
has fortitude and endurance
passionate but is able to control and restrain them
generous
friendly not surly
has leadership qualities
loyal
decisive
has a sense of purpose
takes immediate action to do what is right
is kind
above all has courage
It's not about the strutting peakcock Fonz-like machismo that some people interpret "masculinity" to mean.
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» RE: What is masculinity?
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: What is masculinity?
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: What is masculinity?
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: What is masculinity?
Posted by: Golightly
» RE: What is masculinity?
Posted by: morticia
» "Masculinity" is not the generic term for human being that philosophers usually mean when they speak
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: otto on Sep 8, 2006 2:51 PM
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Posted by: owleyes on Sep 8, 2006 2:56 PM
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» RE: Good luck with your project
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Good luck with your project
Posted by: owleyes
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Posted by: Wish on Sep 8, 2006 3:33 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Basically, they are really afraid. Scared little children.
Oh, and of course, then they get mad en defensive (or rather offensive) reading stuff like this.
Yeah right...just call others sissies or whatever. Just keep on deflecting attention from your own insecurities. Live your life in the fear of constant comparison with others. Be as fake as you can.
We both know your fear...
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» RE: They're not "men" at all
Posted by: owleyes
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Posted by: leftisright on Sep 8, 2006 6:41 PM
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Posted by: LDavistrueblue on Sep 8, 2006 8:35 PM
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Posted by: Lincoln fan on Sep 8, 2006 9:47 PM
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Even though liberals seem to be aware of the fact that the Democrats are Republican Lite and that both parties are inexorably moving to the right they are too paralyzed by fear of the right to do anything but vote for the lesser of the evils. We have a paper tiger by the tail and are afraid to let go. We have to be willing to let go before we can tame it.
The Democrats are no better than the Republicans. They play a perennial game of good cop/bad cop.
Liberals don't want to face that bitter truth because it looks like there's no way out. They keep hoping that the Democrats will "wake up" or "show some spine". It ain't gonna happen. Now that the Bush regime has pushed the establishment's agenda a little too far maybe the Democrats will get in. But they'll get in on the "we're not Republicans" ticket and we'll not get back much of what's been lost since the end of the Great Depression and the stagnation of the New Deal.
We can vote the Republicans out and we can vote the Democrats out but we can't vote the establishment out. People worry about crooked voting machines. It make little difference to the citizens if we can't vote those in power out; the corporatocracy
Our votes have power now before the election and that's the only time they do have power. Once they're cast their power is gone. If we act fast now we can use the power of our votes to dictate the platforms of both parties before the election. Tomorrow may be too late. Join the Lincoln Intiative and bring your friends. It's time to stand up to the two Republican parties and take control. The party won't "show some spine" but we can.
Bob Reichenbach
Director, The Lincoln Initiative.
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Posted by: NowYogi on Sep 9, 2006 4:25 AM
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I need to mention that many of the working class men I have known in my life see 'masculinity' in terms of muscle. The more muscular, the more male you are. I know many guys, unfortunately, who lift weights to gain muscle size to get the respect of other men...being the visual creatures that most men seem to be.
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» RE: A Human Being first
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: StrongNSilent on Sep 9, 2006 7:00 AM
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If you cant see that men and women are different, then I dont know if I can help ya. The sky is blue, BTW.
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» RE: bad men are not real men
Posted by: jontv
» RE: but bad women are real women
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: Subversive on Sep 9, 2006 9:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You certainly won't be the first man to surrender his masculinity.
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Posted by: cwells on Sep 9, 2006 10:06 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being a man is a mixed blessing. As is, I'm sure, being a woman. Does that mean I want to stop being a man? That there's something wrong with it? No. I'm sure the author also claims to support diversity, and yet in this case argues against it.
Men and women are different. Don't just get over it, celebrate it. I for one like being human and being human means having a sex and all the things, good and bad, that go with. If you can't understand that then there's little doubt that you're going to be a really sad individual.
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Posted by: Mark5985 on Sep 9, 2006 2:28 PM
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Chew on that, sissy man
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Posted by: yellow on Sep 9, 2006 3:31 PM
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Posted by: yellow on Sep 9, 2006 3:36 PM
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Posted by: Citizen0001 on Sep 9, 2006 4:48 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't tell you how many supervisors I've had tell me they wish they had another employee like me who actually took initiative and took care of things, got them done, and wasn't afraid to lead. And I can't tell you how many women I've been with who have said how great it is to find a man who goes for what he wants instead of pussyfooting around and trying to be "nice".
Guys, if you're reading this, I fully support you in following the author's recommendations. Gals, if you're reading, go ahead and tell the next guy you see that all girls really want are "nice guys". I'm all for the de-masculinization of society; it'll make everything easier for ME! Although my one qualm would have to be that it might take all the challenge out of life, and I'm a man who thrives on... *gasp*... competition.
But on second thought, nah, go ahead and emasculate yourselves, men. Just means more frustrated employers in search of a bold, dynamic, competitive worker who gets things done, and more sexually frustrated women in search of a man who goes after what he wants and gets what he wants. And that's good, for me.
Cheers,
Citizen0001
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» RE: I Would Love It if More Men Thought Like the Author
Posted by: aahb21
» RE: I Would Love It if More Men Thought Like the Author
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: Lucky Lou on Sep 9, 2006 9:20 PM
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Posted by: Ktflake on Sep 9, 2006 9:49 PM
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» Excellent example of manipulation by shame
Posted by: happy_bullet
» RE: xcellent example of manipulation by shame
Posted by: Ktflake
» RE: xcellent example of manipulation by shame
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: a.nonymous on Sep 10, 2006 5:34 AM
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Man up, nancy boy! The only bad thing about masculinity is your lack of it.
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Posted by: nordicthunder on Sep 10, 2006 7:32 AM
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Posted by: luminousball on Sep 10, 2006 9:48 AM
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» RE: Iron Man
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: solarjin on Sep 10, 2006 10:04 AM
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Chivalry is not yet dead - I would say that is my main contention in saving parts of our masculinity, we must not eradicate all of our imbred heritage - because Darwin was right, survival does happen most fortunately to the fittest - it then requires strength and courage (of the fit) to trustfully examine our fitness. Who in fact succeds in observing their own health other than the healthy human? Who is strong? Who is wise? What is natural...
Masculinity must stay, so must femininity. Though our barbaric nurturing must resign. We can surely re-define what is healthy and best constructive for our culture, then redefine masculinity and femininity as traits of the healthy sexes.
Homosexulaity, which is more or less the masculine model (naturaly male) going against his natural definition and concerning himself with the feminine model (thus unnaturally feminine.) This adjective, which is no better than the asexual... could become indeed indecent when humans have figured out what is naturally male and naturaly female is naturaly prescribed.
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» Ah! Yes, but look how your obnoxious, affected tone belies your lack of anything interesting to say
Posted by: sqqp
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Posted by: crd on Sep 10, 2006 5:35 PM
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If you are interested in these issues, you might want to look at my book, Exposing Men: The Science and Politics of Male Reproduction (Oxford University Press, 2006) Prof. Cynthia R. Daniels (Political Science, Rutgers University, New Jersey)
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» RE: xposing Male reproductive harm
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: CaliforniaWill on Sep 10, 2006 5:59 PM
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While it's true that many men in Red & Blue states still cling, like dinosaurs, to outmoded behavior (and that's never more true than in Washington, DC), there are generations worth of men whose behavior belies all the b.s. spewed up in this article. Just as the stereotype of the young Southern Man is all about "pickup trucks, RCs, and Moonpies," so this stereotype of "masculinity" is about as viable in the modern world. Get a clue, journalists -- situations and circumstances breed the behavior responses, not the other way around.
Commercials and advertising doesn't present nor promote individuality, hence they fall back on the easy labels and homogenous "types," i.e. the beer, burger, and brainless man and the hot, caring, saavy woman. Guess what? Although, they exist, it's not the "total them."
There was a time that journalists actually knew (if sometimes superficially) what they were writing about. That time has evidently passed for most "practicing" the journalism trade.
Today, they drag out old school thinking and re-write the cliches and think they've made socially important "news." They haven't. All they've done is re-cycle the same old-same old.
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Posted by: dgrinn on Sep 11, 2006 12:08 AM
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Posted by: aks451 on Sep 11, 2006 9:02 AM
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Example # 1: A house catches fire. What would you rather have happen, the strongest in the community take charge (male or female), save lives and battle the blaze, or sit around gathering consensus on who should do what while the house burns and people die?
Example # 2: Two men are interested in the same woman. Do the two men then cooperate to share the woman? Or does the woman typically choose the one she prefers? How does she choose? Can anyone not see the competition inherent in this most common situation? Whether or not masculine or androgynous traits are preferred, the element of competition is there and always will be.
Example # 3: Two women are interested in the same man. In how many instances in all of history have women, with their superior feminine qualities of consensus building, expert relationship maintenance, sharing and cooperation, have ever "cooperated" to decide who gets the man? How many women would talk it over with their girlfriends and bow out if the man is giving her signals of interest too?
It is unrealistic to choose cooperation over competition. Both methods of decision making and maintaining social order are evident and necessary among most species. Predators cooperate on the hunt, AND compete for mates and leadership within the group. Prey animals cooperate to defend against predators AND they compete for mates.
The same is true for humanity. We cooperate in our endeavors AND compete for leadership / mates / resources etc. Some things we share, some things we fight for - male or female. The more precious the resource, or the more coveted the social position, the harder people will fight for it. Doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman.
Aggressiveness and a take charge attitude are not strictly male qualities. Dominating an opponent is the only way to prevail in combat. These are necessary qualities in dire situations, whatever the gender. We couldn't eliminate competition from our affairs if we tried. But we can change the ground rules of competition and delineate where and how it is appropriate to be aggressive, and where it is not.
And by the way - in offering (un)persuasive arguments to support his position, thus attempting to win people over to his point of view in the marketplace of ideas, this "professor" has undermined his entire thesis of emphasizing cooperation.
Way to go, Man!
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» Straw man.
Posted by: sqqp
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Posted by: MartianBachelor on Sep 11, 2006 6:45 PM
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Posted by: happy_bullet on Sep 11, 2006 8:01 PM
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Some of this stuff will never change, no matter how much people SAY they want it to:
(*) A man that refuses to compete will lose to one that does. One that says he does not has an advantage though.
(*) Women will choose winners of competition over losers. Ones that say they don't will appear more focussed on compassion and thus more desireable though.
Society does have a toxic view of masculinity, that is it's focus on "aggression" and "violence". Which are, to my mind, not key traits.
It is incorrect that there is a focus on this in business, or even the military. In those areas, there is a focus on "leadership". Which is a coexistence between aggression, ambition and cooperativeness. Quite simply, in many areas anyone with a focus on "seizing power", will simply be opposed by other people and go nowhere.
Actually, these days those institutions have adopted a politically correct view of "aggression and ambition" as being "bad" and have tried to stamp it out by emasculating the modern male. This has only really had the effect of making the modern male more covertly angry. The current corporate climate is more about covert political grabs for power. Not exactly masculine.
When I think of a masculine character, I always think of someone like King Arthur. The guy ruled Camelot justly and had a round table to eliminate any hierarchy between him and his knights. Nevertheless when it was time to take action and compete he stepped up.
Stand up for what is right, show honour, display leadership.
What is bad about that?
Frankly the article strikes me as typical of the self-loathing that has afflicted men of today's society. More than anything there is a crisis of MANHOOD, with masculinity being demonised as something that it is not.
I submit that an approach that would have a higher likelihood of increasing cooperation and compassion among men than this would be to hold the good things about masculinity in a positive light rather than just blanket demonizing it.
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Posted by: BlueTigress on Sep 11, 2006 10:27 PM
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I am married to a guy that most of you would have no trouble following. He is decisive and gives orders well. He can fix just about anything and drive anything that has at least 2 wheels.
He also expects me to know or be able to do everything he does. I have never been able to get away with saying "Honey the car is doing ____" and having him just fix it. I have to be able to at least take a shot at troubleshooting it.
He is also a caring, emotionally sensitive human being who likes to be able to help people when they need it.
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Posted by: happy_bullet on Sep 12, 2006 1:45 AM
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Looks like men kinda LIKE the "stereotyped" role of masculinity and furthermore think it is beneficial.
Funny that most of the people who agreed were women, and frankly that touchy-feely one pretending, oh I mean, saying, they were a guy sounded a bit suspect. Male castration, its a popular romantic fantasy. If we're to believe romance novels we marry them once that's accomplished... LOL.
I'd be willing to say 2 in 200 men agree with the article (and that's only because I'm including the writer of it).
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» RE: I Think It's Safe To Say This Article Is Disagreed With
Posted by: sqqp
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Posted by: juliandroms on Sep 12, 2006 2:36 AM
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Since you are someone who embraces diversity and since you are someone who opposes moral absolutism, I'm sure you will understand.
(And in case I'm wrong and you are not someone who embraces diversity, but you are a moral absolutist, I don't know what to tell you. I could listen to you, or I could listen to someone like Jimmy Swaggart -- I could listen to a lot of people. But alas, I prefer instead to listen to myself. QED I don't care what you think.)
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» Moral Imperialism masquerading as Moral Relativism.
Posted by: sqqp
» RE: Moral Imperialism masquerading as Moral Relativism.
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: Jim Shaw on Sep 13, 2006 1:21 PM
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Here is a representative example of emails I get all the time, which are kind of funny but also kind of sad, and which I think illustrate his point:
International Rules of Manhood
1: Under no circumstances may two men share an umbrella
2: It is okay for a man to cry under the following circumstances:
a. When a heroic dog dies to save its master.
b. The moment Angelina Jolie starts unbuttoning her blouse.
c. After wrecking your boss' car.
d. One hour, 12 minutes, 37 seconds into "The Crying Game".
e. When she is using her teeth.
3: Any Man who brings a camera to a bachelor party may be legally
killed and eaten by his buddies.
4: Unless he murdered someone in your family, you must bail a friend
out of jail within 12 hours.
5: If you've known a guy for more than 24 hours, his sister is off
limits forever, unless you actually marry her. This is VERY important.
6: Moaning about the brand of free beer in a buddy's fridge is
forbidden. However, complain at will if the temperature is unsuitable.
7: No man shall ever be required to buy a birthday present for another
man. In fact, even remembering your buddy's birthday is strictly
optional.
8: On a road trip, the strongest bladder determines pit stops, not the
weakest.
9: When stumbling upon other guys watching a sporting event, you may
ask the score of the game in progress, but you may never, ever ask who's
playing..
10: You may flatulate in front of a woman only after you have brought
her to climax. If you trap her head under the covers for the purpose of
flatulent entertainment, she's officially your girlfriend.
11: It is permissible to drink a fruity alcohol drink only when you're
sunning on a tropical beach... and it's delivered by a topless
supermodel ..and it's free.
12: Only in situations of moral and/or physical peril are you allowed
to kick another guy in the nuts.
13: Unless you're in prison, never fight naked.
14: Friends don't let friends wear Speedos. Ever. Issue closed.
15: If a man's fly is down, that's his problem, you didn't see
anything, and why were you looking in the first place?
etc.
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» RE: Case in Point
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Case in Point
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: AHuman on Sep 15, 2006 7:36 AM
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» RE: try a Martian view of the mess
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: Neilium on Sep 16, 2006 4:50 AM
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I would like to offer a suggestion to those posters here who I think may be better equipped with the following.
Eric Berne ' Games People Play'
and Warren Farrell's 'Why Men Are The Way They Are'
and also his more recent " 'The Myth Of Male Power'
Of course my opinion about why the western world has stuffed it for the rest of the planets inhabitants are Pure Greed combined with the lack of basic survival skills.
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Posted by: AlphaHusky on Sep 21, 2006 10:07 AM
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Jensen is talking about masculinity- not men! Even with all the agreements among social liberals about so many issues we are all facing together during this time of domination by neo-cons, it seems that few grasp that feminism has failed. When reading these comments, it seems that men are simply dismissing the article out of hand. It appears that a number of men read this article, got pissed off, and decided to post in a rather aggressive, self-righteous manner. Does that not "say it all" about the state of gender relations and how far feminism still has to go?
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Posted by: pbr90 on Sep 26, 2006 7:15 AM
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The standard for males is more to deny that emotions exist much in the form of Boston's Globe correspondent author, Donald M. Murray's 9/26/2006 article, Shutting Down Emotions in order to do combat.
Both articles portray the effects of ignoring emotions and how sexist a world is created by male refusal to let emotions influence how they conduct their lives - and may well be psychotic in a psychologically philosophical way that creates for women of the world one that is not only surreal, but harmful in its character with relation to human characteristics.
The dichotomy of women honored and relied upon for their emotional breadth, and warmth, and males who ignore their emotions to do daily life or combat is a situation that creates the gender divide that cannot be closed since they are at two extremes of the human emotional spectrum.
Whether males home from combat are deadened to emotional substance, or prefer to brace their emotional selves by ignoring their emotions, there is great harm for men and for women and for children in allowing men the license to ignore the emotional world and a world where at least 3/4 of the people in it accept emotions as necessary to human expression.
Measuring males by their ability to ignore emotions may unnecessarily thrust upon the world a world of heathen response that is not conducive to civility, to kindness, or to justice. Men have long known to be out of touch with their emotions, but the reality is that men have no need of emotions because in their dealings with other men, emotions are unacceptable, and shed like a snake's skin that is not useful.
The schizophrenia that at home they can convert to emotional beings is unrealistic and a highly toxic anathema to women or to children whose lives exist within the boundaries of sanity where emotions are assets, not detriments. This single feature, alone, may be responsible for the entire gender war and certainly contributes to domestic violence around the world where both women and children are subject to male lack of emotion and their inability to acknowledge their emotions long enough to learn to control them.
Using anger to overcome their ignorance of emotions, or because they have never learned to manage them properly results in an extraordinary burden of schoolyard, work, and dometic violence that the world must bear to indulge what has come to be the essence of male masculinity, wrongfully, and ignorantly.
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