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Sex and Relationships

The High Cost of Manliness

By Robert Jensen, AlterNet. Posted September 8, 2006.


Society's toxic view of masculinity isn't just harmful to men. Everyone pays the price.
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It's hard to be a man; hard to live up to the demands that come with the dominant conception of masculinity, of the tough guy.

So, guys, I have an idea -- maybe it's time we stop trying. Maybe this masculinity thing is a bad deal, not just for women but for us.

We need to get rid of the whole idea of masculinity. It's time to abandon the claim that there are certain psychological or social traits that inherently come with being biologically male. If we can get past that, we have a chance to create a better world for men and women.

That dominant conception of masculinity in U.S. culture is easily summarized: Men are assumed to be naturally competitive and aggressive, and being a real man is therefore marked by the struggle for control, conquest and domination. A man looks at the world, sees what he wants and takes it. Men who don't measure up are wimps, sissies, fags, girls. The worst insult one man can hurl at another -- whether it's boys on the playground or CEOs in the boardroom -- is the accusation that a man is like a woman. Although the culture acknowledges that men can in some situations have traits traditionally associated with women (caring, compassion, tenderness), in the end it is men's strength-expressed-as-toughness that defines us and must trump any female-like softness. Those aspects of masculinity must prevail for a man to be a "real man."

That's not to suggest, of course, that every man adopts that view of masculinity. But it is endorsed in key institutions and activities -- most notably in business, the military and athletics -- and is reinforced through the mass media. It is particularly expressed in the way men -- straight and gay alike -- talk about sexuality and act sexually. And our culture's male heroes reflect those characteristics: They most often are men who take charge rather than seek consensus, seize power rather than look for ways to share it and are willing to be violent to achieve their goals.

That view of masculinity is dangerous for women. It leads men to seek to control "their" women and define their own pleasure in that control, which leads to epidemic levels of rape and battery. But this view of masculinity is toxic for men as well.

If masculinity is defined as conquest, it means that men will always struggle with each other for dominance. In a system premised on hierarchy and power, there can be only one king of the hill. Every other man must in some way be subordinated to the king, and the king has to always be nervous about who is coming up that hill to get him. A friend who once worked on Wall Street -- one of the preeminent sites of masculine competition -- described coming to work as like walking into a knife fight when all the good spots along the wall were taken. Masculinity like this is life lived as endless competition and threat.

No one man created this system, and perhaps none of us, if given a choice, would choose it. But we live our lives in that system, and it deforms men, narrowing our emotional range and depth. It keeps us from the rich connections with others -- not just with women and children, but other men -- that make life meaningful but require vulnerability.

This doesn't mean that the negative consequences of this toxic masculinity are equally dangerous for men and women. As feminists have long pointed out, there's a big difference between women dealing with the possibility of being raped, beaten and killed by the men in their lives, and men not being able to cry. But we can see that the short-term material gains that men get are not adequate compensation for what we men give up in the long haul -- which is to surrender part of our humanity to the project of dominance.

Of course there are obvious physical differences between men and women -- average body size, hormones, reproductive organs. There may be other differences rooted in our biology that we don't yet understand. Yet it's also true that men and women are more similar than we are different, and that given the pernicious effects of centuries of patriarchy and its relentless devaluing of things female, we should be skeptical of the perceived differences.

What we know is simple: In any human population, there is wide individual variation. While there's no doubt that a large part of our behavior is rooted in our DNA, there's also no doubt that our genetic endowment is highly influenced by culture. Beyond that, it's difficult to say much with any certainty. It's true that only women can bear children and breastfeed. That fact likely has some bearing on aspects of men's and women's personalities. But we don't know much about what the effect is, and given the limits of our tools to understand human behavior, it's possible we may never know much.

At the moment, the culture seems obsessed with gender differences, in the context of a recurring intellectual fad (called "evolutionary psychology" this time around, and "sociobiology" in a previous incarnation) that wants to explain all complex behaviors as simple evolutionary adaptations -- if a pattern of human behavior exists, it must be because it's adaptive in some ways. In the long run, that's true by definition. But in the short-term it's hardly a convincing argument to say, "Look at how men and women behave so differently; it must be because men and women are fundamentally different" when a political system has been creating differences between men and women.

From there, the argument that we need to scrap masculinity is fairly simple. To illustrate it, remember back to right after 9/11. A number of commentators argued that criticisms of masculinity should be rethought. Cannot we now see -- recognizing that male firefighters raced into burning buildings, risking and sometimes sacrificing their lives to save others -- that masculinity can encompass a kind of strength that is rooted in caring and sacrifice? Of course men often exhibit such strength, just as do women. So, the obvious question arises: What makes these distinctly masculine characteristics? Are they not simply human characteristics?

We identify masculine tendencies toward competition, domination and violence because we see patterns of differential behavior; men are more prone to such behavior in our culture. We can go on to observe and analyze the ways in which men are socialized to behave in those ways, toward the goal of changing those destructive behaviors. That analysis is different than saying that admirable human qualities present in both men and women are somehow primarily the domain of one gender. To assign them to a gender is misguided and demeaning to the gender that is then assumed not to possess them to the same degree. Once we start saying "strength and courage are masculine traits," it leads to the conclusion that woman are not as strong or courageous.

Of course, if we are going to jettison masculinity, we have to scrap femininity along with it. We have to stop trying to define what men and women are going to be in the world based on extrapolations from physical sex differences. That doesn't mean we ignore those differences when they matter, but we have to stop assuming they matter everywhere.

I don't think the planet can long survive if the current conception of masculinity endures. We face political and ecological challenges that can't be met with this old model of what it means to be a man. At the more intimate level, the stakes are just as high. For those of us who are biologically male, we have a simple choice: We men can settle for being men, or we can strive to be human beings.

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Robert Jensen is a journalism professor at the University of Texas at Austin, and the author of, most recently, The Heart of Whiteness: Confronting Race, Racism and White Privilege (City Lights Books).

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I wish more human beings thought along these lines
Posted by: jparsons on Sep 8, 2006 12:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It was a pleasure to read this, although I feel pessimistic about
society embracing such views any time soon.

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I wish more human beings thought along these lines
Posted by: jparsons on Sep 8, 2006 12:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It was a pleasure to read this, although I feel pessimistic about
society embracing such views any time soon.

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Uncomprehensible drivel.
Posted by: UKMale on Sep 8, 2006 12:47 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is so much broken logic here it unbelievable that the author is Professor of anything.
Of course gender defines our psycology, our physical body, out responses, our everything. This article, by trying to deny masculinity, must, by definition, deny femininity. If anyone posted an article here saying that women should stop being the loving, caring, mothering, wonderful beings that they are, there would be outrage. Millions of years have made us all what we are, and we have come a long way on the road to civilisation. Yes there are still "bad" people, rapists, abusing their strength and physicality, paedophiles abusing their position, but we do not have conditions such as Darfur, with daily rape, murder, destruction on a huge scale.
We are not perfect, and probably never will be. But we have, men and women together, each using their different skills and attributes, made a "decent" place to live.
Men and women are different, some from Mars, some from Venus (politicians from somewhere totally unknown to us), but we are getting better, we are making headway, together.

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» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel. Posted by: Blue Heron
» We Must Balance the Scales Posted by: errandchild
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel. Posted by: Livetta
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel. Posted by: Ktflake
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel. Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel. Posted by: caitlin
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel. Posted by: Robba29
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel. Posted by: drmflorida
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel. Posted by: caitlin
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel. Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel. Posted by: Byronik
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel. Posted by: techphile
» RE: Uncomprehensible drivel. Posted by: dadmoffatt
A little confusion goes a long way.
Posted by: Sojourner on Sep 8, 2006 12:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do not agree with Jensen’s facile identification of masculinity and toughness. Although he allows himself the caveat that women can also be tough (I expect he will hear from women who want to know if he’s ever birthed a child), he confuses the behavior of bullies with masculinity. If there’s one thing women can do just as well as men, it is bullying. The style may differ, but the consequences are the same.

The Wall Street deal room as the example of problems with masculinity sounds like a soap opera or Hollywood melodrama. Competitive behavior is survival behavior in our world. In our world, taking from someone else, even while it may be illegal, is justified as the first law of nature. So it seems that Jensen really ought to be talking about sin.

Secularizing destructive behavior by blaming it on masculinity does not alter the fact that so long as we live with others who believe that it is better to take for themselves, that it is better to warehouse net worth beyond all reasonable requirements, that accumulation demonstrates who are among the elect, that conspicuous consumption is fun, and that he who dies with the most toys wins, we might just as well have stayed in the African trees.

Men are also capable of cooperation. Is that what he is getting at? If so, yeah, let’s hear about that.

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survival
Posted by: rsaxto on Sep 8, 2006 1:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the end survival has determined the behavioral differences between the sexes. But, now that wholesale pollution and war threaten survival of humans and other species it is time to change the psychological dynamic toward more compassion and away from wholesale war-type violence. Otherwise nature might force massive death through massive disease epidemics. If humanity is to have a future society must become both more rational and more caring and must discard irrational weapons of mass destruction and irrational religions of mass destruction. The dumbest belief around is Armageddon.

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» RE: survival Posted by: happy_bullet
It's amazing how many posters here...
Posted by: HeroesAll on Sep 8, 2006 2:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...have clearly mis-understood what the author is saying.

First up, yes, there are currently different social expectations for the behaviour of men and of women. Things that are acceptable for men are not acceptable for women, and vice versa. Anyone who's ever heard someone refer to a man as a 'pussy', or a 'girl', or to behaviour as 'gay', knows this is true. Similarly, women who do not toe the line of acceptable feminine behaviour get maligned in a similar way.

Second, many of you make the mistake of assuming that our behaviour is ingrained in our gender. If you can prove this, then there's a science career ahead of you. If not, then stop claiming it. The old nature-nurture debate has been going on for decades, and will continue to rage for decades more.

If anyone doubts, remember the method of scientific proof: if you're going to prove that gender roles are biologically determined, then you've got to prove that they still exist in the absence of social conditioning. In simpler words, if you believe that having a dick makes you naturally competitive, you've got to be able to point to a non-patriarchal society where dick == competitive. Can you? If not, then maybe rethink your belief.

I'd be more convinced by a theory that said that competitive behaviour was fostered by commercialisation and capitalism. After all, there are healthy non-capitalist societies (or have been), and they tend to show far less competition. Note that I'm not referring to the Soviet Union here, so don't start frothing.

As for those who refer to 'the law of the jungle', this is a bit of a furphy designed to make men in suits feel better about themselves. Yes, animals eat each other. Yes, animals in the same tribe fight. No, that doesn't mean that competition is the sole driver of all of the natural world.

Look at any animal that lives in packs or herds: they co-operate to drive off predators, for example, or to hunt. Humans by themselves are pretty flabby creatures, but the great strength of humans is in co-operation, and the ability to think beyond the next meal or the next root (at least I'd like to think so).

In fact, in the animal kindgom, co-operation is far more prevalent, and far more productive, than competition. Happens with plants, too, if you're interested. And between one genus (is that the correct term?) and another, between one kingdom and another.

So the author is saying something sensible and relevant after all. Pity some of you dismiss it out of hand, without thinking.

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» Law of the jungle Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Law of the jungle Posted by: Lauren
» A little knowledge .... Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: somewhat amazing ... Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: somewhat amazing ... Posted by: laoma
» RE: somewhat amazing ... Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: somewhat amazing ... Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: somewhat amazing ... Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» we evolved from rodents Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: we evolved from rodents Posted by: mac macgillicuddy
It Is Not So Simple
Posted by: ChristopherLL on Sep 8, 2006 3:50 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What does journalism have to do with any of the issues discussed in the aritcle. It seems rather an opinion than an assertion. There are polar opposites in all of the comos; night/day, up/down, hot/cold, on/off, male/female, ect. To eliminate these poles is to open the doors to confusion and eventually chaos. The references to masculinity in the article are superficial, narrow and inflammatory reflecting very little about what those men who live between the poles of male/female are really like.

What is glaring in its absence is the works in literature, human development, anthroplogy, mythology, evolutionary biology and most important psychosexual, psychosocial and attachment theory. The two fundamental unconcsiouc forces are aggression and sexuality. Aggression is learned at an early age and is dependent on the how anger and power. Aggression is a force of nature as is sexuality and cannot be altered, denied or eliminated just by saying "no." It is essentially a defensive reaction to perceived threat and is fueled by fear and anger. In its healthy state aggession is a powerful energy for productivity, health and happipness. In an unhealthy state it becomes a source of revenge, retribution and destruction. It all depends on the balance.

This is all a complex issue an needs serious and committed attention, discussion and action. But it will not change by idealogical whims or judgmental accusations. It is the balance of all opposites in nature and not the elimination of their differences. Differences should be acknowledged and celebrated not obliterated. What I can say is this culture has taken competition to a form of worship. At the heart of competition is power. Men use force to assert their power and women use their bodies. They are both expoited by the society. The other characteristics that encompass both women and men are then subordinated or ignored.

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» RE: It Is Not So Simple Posted by: Lauren
» RE: It Is Not So Simple Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: It Is Not So Simple Posted by: Ktflake
» RE: It Is Not So Simple Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: It Is Not So Simple Posted by: Ktflake
» RE: It Is Not So Simple Posted by: Annarisse
» RE: It Is Not So Simple Posted by: dadmoffatt
lol
Posted by: ShoShenQ on Sep 8, 2006 3:51 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lets all transform into asexual androgyns.

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» Not laughing... Posted by: igoeja
» Hey laughing boy Posted by: supercrisp
» I think,,,, Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
Charley, where are you?
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Sep 8, 2006 3:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anybody heard from Darwin lately?
Bob Reichenbach
Director, The Lincoln Initiative.

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Some quibbles
Posted by: YogiBear on Sep 8, 2006 3:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This doesn't mean that the negative consequences of this toxic masculinity are equally dangerous for men and women. As feminists have long pointed out, there's a big difference between women dealing with the possibility of being raped, beaten and killed by the men in their lives, and men not being able to cry.

This is worded incorectly -- as anyone who knows aggressive men will tell, they are equally dangerous to other men as they are to women. Our murder rate is driven by young men killing young men.

As for male firefighters -- they are indeed very brave and do perhaps exhibit the best of what masculinity has to offer. But they are also some of the worst offenders in the "toxic" class as well. So with one comes the other, apparently.

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» Thanks Yogi Posted by: supercrisp
Ir is Facile...
Posted by: igoeja on Sep 8, 2006 4:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The overgeneralizations about masculinity, and about what our society would be like are irritating to me, primarily because I find them overly simplistic. Androgyny is generally more desirable for both men and women, in that numerous positive personality correlates are higher among such, although feminity can also have benefits, i.e., longer-lasting marriage. Masculinity, for both men and women, is generally less desirable.

Also, using Hofsteder's masculinity ratings of countries correlated against social outcomes, gender-divided countries tend to have less good social outcomes. Income inequality, average hours worked, and poor academic performance tend to correlate positively with masculine, gender-divided ratings. The more equal societies, which include France and the Scandinavian countries, generally have better quality of life measures as compared to the more gender-divided ones, e.g., US, UK, and Italy.

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» RE: Ir is Facile... Posted by: cold2touch
RE: The FakeLeft wants to make it Man vs Woman, White vs Black, just so it's not The Rich vs The Masses
Posted by: Colin on Sep 8, 2006 5:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rockefella started the first NGO? In 1913 I presume?

I wonder if anyone should mention this to the Red Cross? (1863)

Like all your arguments, Cryofan, your post is big on joining up dots that don't necessarily exist.

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RE: Food for thought
Posted by: cold2touch on Sep 8, 2006 6:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... nothing much to add either at this point.

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Be careful what you ask for
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 8, 2006 6:20 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Take away a man's competitiveness, his stoicism in the face of life's crap, his ability to stand up for himself effectively, his willingness to try to solve his own problems instead of spreading them onto others, and so on, and what do you end up with?

A man no woman would touch with a ten foot pole. And a woman complaining about how there are no "real" men anymore.

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» RE: Be careful what you ask for Posted by: agapegirl
» RE: Be careful what you ask for Posted by: wearesilhouettes
» RE: Be careful what you ask for Posted by: cmaukonen
» So short. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Be careful what you ask for Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Waaait a minute... Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: Waaait a minute... Posted by: Logic's Edge
» What do you end up wih? Posted by: Lizmv
You can get past it
Posted by: moontime on Sep 8, 2006 6:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can get past it: Its called being "secure". When you are secure with yourself you don't care about anyone else's definition of you.

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Good Article!
Posted by: YHWH on Sep 8, 2006 6:38 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hope a lot of guys read this and start acting like whiney, sensitive, crying wussbags. More chicks for me!

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» RE: Good Article! Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Good Article! Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Good Article! Posted by: MartianBachelor
THE PERPETUAL TEENAGER
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 8, 2006 6:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At some point we're all expected to grow up. Hanging on to what made you tough at 16 is not attractive at 25. Stop blaming the need to compete and be in control as traits that define manliness. THey don't. They make men obnoxious and unappealing. Nice guys do not finish last. Not in the world of women. When you become involved with a woman it's no longer JUST ABOUT YOU. Keep that in mind. You can still sweat and refuse to ask directions. It's OK. Thanks, ANNA

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RE: The FakeLeft wants to make it Man vs Woman, White vs Black, just so it's not The Rich vs The Masses
Posted by: hayesad on Sep 8, 2006 6:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I congratulate you on your transendence! For the rest of us, however, still stuck inside bodies that exist in a physical space that has been transposed with and imposed upon by notions of socially construed metaphysicality -- which means with meanings beyond our own skin -- how are you able to divorce your culture, your gender, and your race from your economic and political existence, from your voting and spending habits? In other words, how do you exist merely upon fluff and without an identity imposed upon the resultant of your chromosomes? Translate your gnosis into praxis for us so as to help us transcend our own belaboured facticity. Explain to us how your philosophy is not as divisive as any other Cartesean duality, not as separative of mind/thought from body/action. We already know what the philosophers have told us about the workings of the world. The point is, as Marx critiqued, to change it. Consider that not all division (distinction or difference) is the teleological conclusion of a premise to rule and that there may be distinction without meaning, despite what the over-abundance and arrogance of meaning would have you believe.

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Excellent article and oh so true.
Posted by: Bev on Sep 8, 2006 6:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mainstream media keeps perpetuating these stereotypes and always propelling it to new levels. It is not making any of us happy human beings. I say it's time we all throw our tv sets out the window and while you're at it...throw your 'news'paper out there too. it's all corporate propaganda that's sucking up our lives.

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respectfully
Posted by: oogiboogi on Sep 8, 2006 7:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many men have already adopted the transformation that Prof Jensen speaks of and, in my opinion, these men who have changed their manner of framing their "manness" in a way that is considerate, politic, kind and yet strong (think gandalf) ... are persuasive in changing the attitudes of other men around them who are just following "the rules" toward being comfortable in their thickly muscled, hormonally impulsive and competitive frames.

This revolution doesn't start in the head ... it will need to start in the hearts of men -- and it is learned through patterning. So if this article means something to you and you are a man ... don't look to programs or doctrine. Just be thoughtful and strong, loving and decisive and steadfast in your principles ... it will spread like a wave.

If this article means something to you and you are a woman ... don't shame boys for their fits of masculinity, if they want to "play war" or drive fast or get in trouble -- simply love them and talk with them and listen. If it comes steady and with sincerity they will figure out that what you are giving is what they want to give.

Since we're all just stating opinions. This is mine.

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Empirically Speaking
Posted by: Pete123 on Sep 8, 2006 7:26 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before constructing a new gendered utopia, let's consider a couple of emperical observations. First, humans with penises as a class do not bond with offspring at anywhere near the rate that females do. For proof of this assertion look around in society at marriage and family, divorce and child support statistics. Second, on the social level of analysis, the damage caused by traditional views of masculinity suggests strong support for Jensen's argument. However, on the individual level of analysis, traditional masculinity obviously offers much greater rewards than harm to men. Again, look at what women do rather than what they say and it will become clear that the rewards of being masculine go beyond the tournament of life among being played by rivaling males. Third, if bisexuality is so compelling as an adaptive strategy to succeed in modern life why do we observe so little of it in our midst? Stigma alone cannot explain away the lack of blurring along gender lines in this vein, even though we might expect to see a higher rate of bisexuality in our hedonistic and self-absorbed culture than we actually do.

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Masculinity is an IDEA, it does not make a "man"
Posted by: sln70 on Sep 8, 2006 7:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The very fact that calling a man "womanish" is considered to be the highest insult tells me that masculinity is absolutely about domination rather than a definition of what a 'good man should be'

Good men do what is RIGHT - not what they are bullied into doing.

Man or woman, all we have at the end of the day is our integrity. This is genderless. If you're a woman who closes her eyes to the abuse going on next door you are no less a coward than if you are a man who does the same thing. If you are a woman who cries at every little thing you are as hysterical as any man who does the same thing.

I will not deny that there are differences between men and women - I would not try to pretend that a woman's ability to connect with the emotions of others can be paralleled by most men, just as I will not try to assert that most women could be as physically strong as men are. But to translate this into some wide gender role - assigning all forms of 'protection' to men and all forms of 'subservience' to women is ludicrous.

So you can open jars and we can tell at a glance if our neighbours are angry with us. That's about as far as 'masculinity as femininity' REALLY go.

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Perfect example: War on Iraq
Posted by: jontv on Sep 8, 2006 7:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the author is right, but I was expecting more concrete examples of how misguided masculinity gets society in trouble. The war on Iraq is a good one.

There was never any good reason to believe that attacking Iraq would prevent terrorism or make the world safer. Still, millions of people supported it. I think it had a lot to do with stupid ideas about manhood. So often, we judge masculinity not just by "toughness", but by the ability and willingness to do violence to others. We got hit hard by 9/11, and most people didn't see it coming. The macho thing to do is to hit back. It doesn't matter if hitting back will make things worse, or even if you're hitting the right person.

So we hit Iraq, even though, as the president now admits, they had nothing to do with 9/11. If not for the masculine gospel of hitting back, there is no way Bush could have garnered enough popular support to justify what has now become a disastrous war.

That kind of thing is where misguided masculinity takes us. But the mechanism is personal. So many men identify so strongly with being men, and with the twisted social image of machismo, that they fall into these kinds of reactions without even thinking about it.

You can see the kind of gender identification we're facing from many of the comments here. Many men literally can't imagine what it would be like to be a man who DOESN'T wander around worrying about how manly he is. But the world would indeed be better if people could just live the way they want to instead of obsessing about how well they conform to absurd social constructs.

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Reality Check
Posted by: Crazy H on Sep 8, 2006 8:05 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Give a doll to a three-year-old girl and she’ll hug it and love it and talk to it like a baby. Give a doll to a three-year-old boy and he’ll hit the little girl over the head with it.

When a saber-tooth tiger comes to the mouth of the cave, it’s daddy caveperson that goes out to do battle; knowing that he will probably die in the attempt. Okay, so that’s driven by his machismo attitude; but if he had sat down and examined his feelings instead, neither his genes nor mommy caveperson’s genes would survive to the next generation.

Whether you believe in divine creation or evolution, it should be apparent that gender differences are built into the human animal. Some differences are obvious – men run faster than women; but women can run for longer distances. Men learn math and sciences easier; women learn languages easier. Why is it so hard to believe that there might be psychological differences as well? If you were designing a warrior machine – wouldn’t you design warrior operating system to drive that machine?

Yes, our society has problems because we weren’t designed to live in cities with millions of other people. But denying gender differences only exacerbate those problems. A man needs to be manly. The more you repress his natural drives, the stronger his need to assert his manliness. Take it far enough, you will drive him insane and he will express his manliness in some socially-unacceptable manner.

You aren’t going to take the warrior out of the man short of genetic manipulation, your only choice is whether to live in a society of sane warriors or insane warriors.

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» RE: eality Check Posted by: jontv
» RE: eality Check Posted by: caitlin
» RE: eality Check Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: eality Check Posted by: caitlin
» You are wrong Posted by: supercrisp
» RE: eality Check Posted by: Robba29
» Righto Crazy! Posted by: LDavistrueblue
If you object
Posted by: supercrisp on Sep 8, 2006 8:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And before you post your objection, please ask yourself if your appeals to science and nature in objections to this essay’s attack on gender stereotypes are self-serving. Ask yourself what exactly it is that you think you will lose if men stop calling each other pussies, stop treating women as chattel, stop bashing each other with clubs.

Appeals to Darwin, to literature, make very little sense. As someone who studies literature for how it represents gender, I can tell you that there’s a lot of solid evidence out there that gender is shaped. This fellow asks us to shape it differently, perhaps abandon it.

Better yet, before objecting read the article again. It expresses a viewpoint many academics in gender studies, literature, and psychology share. Yes, perhaps there is a certain degree of biological determinism in gender behavior, but from anyone can tell so far, nothing in our make up demands the behaviors he’s describing.

Finally: on appeals to nature. It is perfectly natural for us, as primates, to not be selective about where we defecate. Yet we are. It would seem perfectly natural for us to whip out our willy in the coffeshop for a good spanking--the apes at the zoo, our cousins, do. So if you do suspect there’s some great Nature or God that makes you as you have been shaped to be, before appealing to nature in your objection, remember that nature can justify many more behaviors than those you select as natural.

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» RE: If you object Posted by: Crazy H
RE: The FakeLeft wants to make it Man vs Woman, White vs Black, just so it's not The Rich vs The Mas
Posted by: karyse on Sep 8, 2006 8:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're exactly right, my brother/sister. Exactly right.

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Read "Hisstory" by Nicholas Mann
Posted by: brucem on Sep 8, 2006 8:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Go get and read the book "Hisstory" by Nicolas Mann. It is a fabulous historical and cultural examination and debunking of the myth of tough-guy masculanity and the ills and harms of patriarchy. It's a great read and will change your view of this issue forever.

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» RE: ead "Hisstory" by Nicholas Mann Posted by: MartianBachelor
I find it amazing...
Posted by: caitlin on Sep 8, 2006 8:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that posts about war crimes, violence, war profiteering, racism, classism and environmental issues pretty much go without comment, but the minute an article relating to gender and/or sexuality is posted, suddenly everyone is in an uproar. A lot of men in particular come in in full force to defend....what exactly is it they are defending? Their right to be emotionally frigid? Their right to spend their lives in emotional isolation? Their right to call other men "pussies" and "little girls"? Their right to treat women like blow up dolls? What is so goddamn precious about the modern construct of masculinity that people cannot seem to let go of?

It's no surprise that men who are successful at living up to our culture's definition of masculinity are also usually among the most miserable members of our society. They drink and smoke and work to excess, leading them to early heart failure and painful deaths. They are emotionally withdrawn, leading their children and their wives to feel abandoned and neglected and unloved. The protection of their egos is the most important thing in the world to them, regardless of how their egoism affects those around them.

Yes, there are good things about masculinity, like strength and providing for one's family and community and protecting them and so on. However, I don't know how those traits are solely the domain of men. Do women not exhibit strength? Do they not fight to protect their families and their communities? Do they not provide for them? Are you going to tell me that mothers, who birth their babies and have been known to fight off and kill predators who come after their babies, are you going to tell me that these women are not strong, that they do not protect their families? I dare anyone to list one stereotypical masculine trait that applies exclusively to men. You can't do it, because it doesn't exist.

I feel the same way about femininity. Yes, there are good aspects about femininity, but I ask again, how are those good aspects limited solely to women? Do men not care for other people? Do they not care to look attractive to their desired love objects? Do they not enjoy a good home and eating good food?

Time and time again, I hear that I as a feminist need to look beyond gender, that I need to stop looking at myself as a woman and look at everyone as people. Well, it's really fucking hard to do that when men call each other "girls" as an insult, and when a huge chunk of the population are still so hung up on our outdated gender roles that they still cling desperately to the belief that some traits are innately masculine or feminine. I'll tell you what - I'll start looking beyond gender the day Alternet posts an article about gender issues and it gets just as few comments as an article about Bush's war crimes.

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» Got some anger, eh? Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Got some anger, eh? Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: Got some anger, eh? Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: I find it amazing... Posted by: caitlin
» RE: I find it amazing... con't Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: caitlin Posted by: hymalaia
» RE: caitlin, cont Posted by: hymalaia
» RE: I find it amazing... Posted by: fork
» Well done, you nailed that one Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Well done, you nailed that one Posted by: MartianBachelor
One of your pet ideas was written about here... you had nothing to say about it. stop spamming us!
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Sep 8, 2006 9:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You had nothing to say then because you actually have nothing to say. The only "seeds" you are planting are ones that will keep people thinking that those who want to address the issues you talk around (not about.. you never talk ABOUT them) are nutjobs who should rightly be ignored. YOU are doing more than the "pseudoleft" to hurt the causes you are so fervent about.

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The High Cost Of Robert Jensen
Posted by: Gatsby on Sep 8, 2006 10:02 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After reading yet another sophomoric essay written by Professor Robert Jensen, I am wondering why Alternet can't seem to rise above and stay above such nonsense. There are so many important issues worthy of thought and discussion in today's chaotic world, why waste this space with such puerile gibberish?

Take this writing for instance, once again, Robert Jensen, a college professor of journalism, so-called, harvests the fields of inanity for the passionately gullible with statements like, "We need to get rid of the whole idea of masculinity. It's time to abandon the claim that there are certain psychological or social traits that inherently come with being biologically male. If we can get past that, we have a chance to create a better world for men and women." What? Friends, in those three absurd sentences Robert Jensen manages to turn evolutionary biology, physical & cultural anthropology, logic, world history and human ecology on its head without skipping a beat. It continues, "That dominant conception of masculinity in U.S. culture is easily summarized: Men are assumed to be naturally competitive and aggressive, and being a real man is therefore marked by the struggle for control, conquest and domination. A man looks at the world, sees what he wants and takes it.". Now, I can't prove it, but I swear, Jensen's last sentence here derives from too many times watching the hilarious scene between Jefe and El Guapo in the comedy film "Three Amigos!" when Jefe is trying to comfort El Guapo about turning 40.

After reading a number of his essays, I can easily believe that Robert Jensen is confused and confounded by his masculinity. Jensen seems hard twisted over several issues. Most notably, he wants "white" people to share in his self-loathing and patronizing guilt concerning racial issues. No thanks, Mr. Jensen.

Robert Jensen is a professional wordsmith. He thrives in stirring up stereotypes and prejudices, then framing those grand gobbledygook generalizations as common-sense social fact. If you read Robert Jensen's work with a critical eye, I think you'll find that he is simply full of bullshit.

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» More unfounded assertions Posted by: caitlin
» RE: More unfounded assertions Posted by: SatanicJamboree
OK, then, MEN....
Posted by: jontv on Sep 8, 2006 10:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There seem to be a lot of men writing about how ridiculous this essay is, dismissing Jensen without really offering a good reason to believe something different from what Jensen is saying.

So I ask this: Why do so many men think it's so important for us to buy into the idea that men and women are biologically different? What do we gain by it?

I would suggest that while there may be some differences, much of what we see as inherent biology is social conditioning. Even if some of these gender constructions have a biological basis, we all know people who don't conform to these supposedly inherent sex differences.

So why should we cling to these gender stereotypes? What benefits do they provide? I don't see any.

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» RE: OK, then, MEN.... Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: OK, then, MEN.... Posted by: caitlin
» RE: OK, then, MEN.... Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: OK, then, MEN.... Posted by: caitlin
» RE: OK, then, MEN.... Posted by: sweetlou
» The steaming load Posted by: fork
» RE: OK, then, MEN.... Posted by: jontv
» RE: OK, then, MEN.... Posted by: BlueTigress
TROLL 6, Bloggers 1 TROLL wins again !
Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Sep 8, 2006 10:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You'd think we'd learn ...

Same guy ... same rap ...

Different day

Sheeh!

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Robert
Posted by: nonwhiteperson on Sep 8, 2006 11:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jensen writes about normative masculinity and femininity. What he says is very important to the survival of this country and the planet.

This is an excellent, timely article.

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» RE: obert Posted by: perri6
Thank you.
Posted by: Rin Daemoko on Sep 8, 2006 11:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For this piece, I thank you. From the bottom of my heart. Growing up was an incredibly painful experience for me because I never measured up to the perceived ideas of what boys were supposed to be like. I was alienated by schoolmates, friends, and even family because I wasn't hyper-masculine.

I tried it for a while, but one thing I've learned about myself is that I have this really deep, powerful, and sometimes annoying inability to lie to myself. I just can't do it. No matter how hard I try ... I would sooner take my own life than live a lie.

As painful as it is and has been to be myself amidst the lies surrounding what men are supposed to be like, what people who live in a consumerist culture are supposed to be like, I know that these things would never compare to the torment I would endure if I were to adopt society's ideas of masculinity.

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» RE: Thank you. Posted by: nonwhiteperson
Not very deep
Posted by: paul_d on Sep 8, 2006 12:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The separation of "culture" and "biology" is a false dichotomy... At some level, our culture is a product of our biology, and evolution will operate on it the same as any other biological feature. You can't avoid it! Dismissing evolution as "simple" and a "fad" doesn't show very deep thought into these matters. And if the author seriously thinks we can just "jettison masculinity" (whatever that means), how about offering a plan to do so?

I agree with the poster who criticized Jensen's previous articles ("High Cost of Jensen"). It seems he picks emotionally charged issues such as race and gender and then writes about them in a simplistic, stereotypical and inflammatory way which is sure to "push people's buttons". This is probably how he stays popular (same as Limbaugh, OReilly, et al on the right). And judging by the number of posts, it works. But he offers nothing constructive, and these articles are very divisive. I wish Alternet would stop giving this guy a soapbox.

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» RE: Not very deep Posted by: rellots
» RE: Not very deep Posted by: perri6
» RE: Not very deep Posted by: MartianBachelor
Sick of Bush
Posted by: SicfkOfBush on Sep 8, 2006 12:47 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The manhood as described is a description of extreme insecurity and of Caveman personality. It is more that of a rooster, a triumphment moose, and a person in fear of everyone around him. It such a person any different from a circle of gossiping women?

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Fake Activism perhaps
Posted by: daw13 on Sep 8, 2006 12:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Professor Jensen has shifted the focus that brought him to prominence in activist circles -- the evils of Neocon imperialism -- to (1) the need to teach white peole that being prejudiced is wrong, and now (2) the need to teach men that their definition of manliness is unhealthy. In writing about (1) he barely hints at how institutionalized racism has become largely an invisibilized process. A body of excellent empirical sociology tells us that it no longer has much to do with ordinary white citizens' prejudice, yet racism is having a more powerful destructive effect on peoples' lives than ever before.

Regarding (2) he seems utterly unaware of the rich analysis of these issues already in process -- see Kate Milett, Luce Irigaray, Riane Eisler, Merlin Stone for starters. Jensen's impact is only to trivialize a truly dynamic area of social-cultural analysis.

Or would it be more accurate to observe that those who identify with him are assured to engage in forms of "activism" unlikely to have much affect on anything important, and to suggest, as the author of the comment I'm responding to does, that Jensen may not simply have grown out of touch with reality? Perhaps something has happened to cause him to redefine his priorities.

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» really interesting comment! ^^ Posted by: Michelle
» RE: really interesting comment! ^^ Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» I still think it's interesting Posted by: Michelle
ember_AZ
Posted by: judiths1_az on Sep 8, 2006 1:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In Rita Gross, Ph.D.'s beautiful book, "Buddhism After Patriachy" she says, "Sex is not a relevant criterion for awarding roles or value...any set of gender roles whatsoever will be a prison for some who do not readily fit them. (301)" and "Ones sex implies nothing inevitable about ones's reproductive decisions, one's economic and social roles, or even one's basic psychological traits and tendancies. (303)" plus "...what imprisons is the expectation that women should be feminine and men should be masculine. (303)" I'm quoting because she says it so well. I also read a recent article at www.blackcommentator.com where the case was clearly made for race being a construct. It ultimately means nothing. I take that idea and apply it to gender. It ultimately means nothing and the cultural penchant for demanding it mean something is cruel and destructive. Feminism: The radical notion that women are people. Men and women are people.

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» RE: ember_AZ Posted by: MartianBachelor
This is Ancient History
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 8, 2006 1:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is an attompt to play along the lines of the old stereotype that men are the ones who always abuse and dominate women and also are the ones who cause society and the worlds troubles. This was the theory about 10 years ago, but the times they have been a changing. The sexes are equalizing out in many categories and women in fact are surpassing men. Just consider these points, domestic violence rates with women as the agressor have sky-rocketed. On violence: with domestic abuse, at least 1/3 rd of the cases now involve women as the primary or mutual aggressor and its climbing with women as the aggressor. Next, women make up 60-70% of the college population, and graduate at significantly higher rates then males. Women "in the boardroom" will equal and surpass men in 10 years based on current trends. Also, the gap between who does the housework (male vs. female) has rapidly closed and will disapper at current trends in a few years. And, the number of "stay at home dads" and single father households has sky-rocketed by over 25% in just five years. So, the sexes are really equalizing, but still you will find some of the old college types wanting to show a "sensitive side" on "gender equality," an issue that long ago peaked and is now disappearing.

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But Men DO Choose It
Posted by: MisterMunk on Sep 8, 2006 1:08 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hear ya, man. But the men who are rooting against a muscles-first society are probably the ones who would benefit least from such a society (i.e people like me). See, I don't buy into the "might makes right" crap because I don't have the might to enforce it. Instead of trading on the inherent authority of "bigness" I've instead had to learn other ways to navigate the world at-large. It makes sense, then, that I'd be one of the folks arguing for a gender-neutral society. But then, wouldn't that be putting the brutes (I know, I know they're "culturally rendered") at a disadvantage?

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Its natural
Posted by: YHWH on Sep 8, 2006 1:12 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is actually pretty common among intelligent and geeky guys; they see all these other 'dumb' men butting heads with each other and 'objectifying' women... and getting more action than them. The smart guy feels he is above and superior to the dumb guy--so why is the dumb guy getting more women??? The smart guy can't figure it out so he whines and complains about how its not fair and how women are more attracted to aggresive, dominent men than crybaby wussbags with high IQs. There are people on this board saying guys need to pay more attention to the women in their lives, be more sensitive.. HA! Women hate that! Girls, how attracted are you to guys who:

-Always defer to you in every situation?
-Always ask what YOU want to do?
-Constantly apologize for everything they say?
-Can't make their own decisions?
-Ask you "What are you thinking?"
-Whine about all their problems and won't take any responsibility?

Yeah yeah I thought so. Then women read this and remember how they were uncontrollably attracted to some douchebag who treated them like garbage and even though they willingly put up with it forever they blame him and cry out for nice guys and gentlemen. Sorry smart wusses, they ain't talking about you. What they want is for the jerkoff asshole to start being sensitive and nice to them. You know, guys they are attracted to.

Girls are never attracted to wussiness; this essay will not change millions of years of evolution. I'll get replys to this calling me a cocky arrogant jerk, saying I'm wrong, etc. blah blah blah. Whatever, you love it.

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» RE: Its natural Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Its natural Posted by: MartianBachelor
Pah
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 8, 2006 1:15 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These attempts to turn humanity into a unisexed mass are doomed to failure. Frankly this article reads like a lesbian's dream. It's not going to happen no matter how much hate you people spew at men.

I like the fact that there are differences between men and women. Life is better for it.

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Yaa Let us Shoot All Men
Posted by: eyeman on Sep 8, 2006 1:47 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I suspect that 90% of this type of reponse come from women. Enough already. Yes, let us discuss gender issues. But let us not be so sure that men are evil and women are angels.
Men Are Flawed. Women Are flawed as much.
Life needs both men and women.
Men and Women have different roles.
Eliminating gender is unrealistic. It is never going to happen.
Denying The existance Of real built in gender Differeces is dumb.

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Alpha Females on the Way
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 8, 2006 1:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As for comments on women being attracted "to the tough guy" here is what I have concluded. In my observations, on marriage number one (you can call it "the starter marriage"), some women do go for the "bad boy sort." This is usually a marriage that happens, if it does, in the '20's or even earlier. Well, lessons learned, then on marriage number two (around age 30-40), many of these same women will be more attracted to "the sensitive guy" sort. Why? Because marriage number one was a "waking up" to what happens when you marry for the wrong reasons. Now, moving on to marriage number 3, (40-55 or so), many women will go for a guy mostly not out of considerations of "bad boy" or "sensitivity" so much as the idea of a good companion or friend. Of course, you have to add to this issues of socioeconomic status which has a big impact (people tend to marry in the same social class), kids, etc. But, I would also say that men should realize women are not "fixed entities" either and female society has been drastically changing. We might yet see the emergence of a new "female type" akin to the old male "tough guy" image. The new "alpha female" will be a women who has no problem being smarter, tougher, and perhaps even stronger, in many instances then her man or husband. Will this mean men will become obsolete, I hope not but listen to what some women sociologists and commentators are now saying, they believe women no longer need men and can do everything better perhaps without them.

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» RE: Alpha Females on the Way Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Alpha Females on the Way Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Alpha Females on the Way Posted by: happy_bullet
» RE: Alpha Females on the Way Posted by: happy_bullet
How Would The World Be Different If
Posted by: eyeman on Sep 8, 2006 2:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If God Gives the power to Men and Women: to recreate themselves, What would They want to look like? Physically and Emotionally?

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» RE: How Would The World Be Different If Posted by: nonwhiteperson
» RE: How Would The World Be Different If Posted by: nonwhiteperson
What is masculinity?
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 8, 2006 2:41 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's the best definition of a man that I've found. It was based on the following sources:

(i.) Aristotle's "Nichomachean Ethics"

(ii.) Marcus Aurelius's "Meditations"

(iii.) Epicetus's "Discourses"

(iv.) Cicero's "De Officus".

Qualities of a man:

honorable
honest
in some ways humble
calm under pressure
has fortitude and endurance
passionate but is able to control and restrain them
generous
friendly not surly
has leadership qualities
loyal
decisive
has a sense of purpose
takes immediate action to do what is right
is kind
above all has courage

It's not about the strutting peakcock Fonz-like machismo that some people interpret "masculinity" to mean.

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» RE: What is masculinity? Posted by: owleyes
» RE: What is masculinity? Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: What is masculinity? Posted by: owleyes
» RE: What is masculinity? Posted by: Golightly
» RE: What is masculinity? Posted by: morticia
otto
Posted by: otto on Sep 8, 2006 2:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like the article too. As one who grew up a jock and did some coaching of baseball and football in high schools...and also taught religion classes in Catholic schools, I think now that I had a bit of a schizophrenic outlook. My athletic views certainly clashed with my moral views at times, though I wasn't too aware of it then. We do live in a ridiculously highly competitive society, and sports are just one of the areas that take a beating. Someone should write a philosphy or a theology of sports, and remind us that we're supposed to be having fun out there as well as developing character. (Don't we claim that as one of the big benefits of sports?) How do we learn to balance the real need to want to win with the need to accept a loss and not feel you're a failure in life?

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Good luck with your project
Posted by: owleyes on Sep 8, 2006 2:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An androgynous, egalitarian utopia sounds wonderful. But what should happen to the gendered luddites who won't be converted and won't get out of the way? Do we send them to re-education camps, or do we just kill them?

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» RE: Good luck with your project Posted by: Logic's Edge
They're not "men" at all
Posted by: Wish on Sep 8, 2006 3:33 PM   
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I dare to state that men following the stated "masculinity" are actually totally NOT in touch with their true masculinity. They are only living up to other people's view of 'socalled masculinity'. They are constantly comparing. They don't dare to take an honest look at themselves for one single second.
Basically, they are really afraid. Scared little children.

Oh, and of course, then they get mad en defensive (or rather offensive) reading stuff like this.
Yeah right...just call others sissies or whatever. Just keep on deflecting attention from your own insecurities. Live your life in the fear of constant comparison with others. Be as fake as you can.

We both know your fear...

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» RE: They're not "men" at all Posted by: owleyes
IT'S THE TESTOSTERONE STUPID
Posted by: leftisright on Sep 8, 2006 6:41 PM   
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Can we all deny the role our hormones play? As men age and lose some of their testosterone they generally lose their aggressive traits. likewise as women lose their estrogen they become more "assertive". Yes it would be fabulous if all of our destructive behavours would just disappear; but let's face it, genes matter.

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gender frustration is here, not abroad
Posted by: LDavistrueblue on Sep 8, 2006 8:35 PM   
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The rest of the planet seems generally satisfied with their traditional gender roles and customs (not talking about genocidal rapes or other excess, just daily life). Along with the other notions we attempt to peddle to the ignorant masses, add this gender-neutral approach. With the exception of England, Australia and Canada, the world at large already thinks we're crazier than a shithouse rat. Let's give them one more thing to chuckle about.

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RE: The FakeLeft wants to make it Man vs Woman, White vs Black, just so it's not The Rich vs The Masses
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Sep 8, 2006 9:47 PM   
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As usual rebel-fan I agree with your main premise. We are ruled by the corporate establishment that has long range goals and uses psychological warfare to divide us. They've worked for 75 years to undo The New Deal and they'll succeed, if we let them, even if it takes another 25. Liberals think that the Republicans are their enemy. They charge the cape instead of the matador. The matador is the corporate establishment that waves both the Republican cape and the Democratic cape through bribes of campaign "contributions" and million dollar lobbies. When we tear the Republican cape he waves the Democratic cape until he can repair the Repulican cape.

Even though liberals seem to be aware of the fact that the Democrats are Republican Lite and that both parties are inexorably moving to the right they are too paralyzed by fear of the right to do anything but vote for the lesser of the evils. We have a paper tiger by the tail and are afraid to let go. We have to be willing to let go before we can tame it.

The Democrats are no better than the Republicans. They play a perennial game of good cop/bad cop.
Liberals don't want to face that bitter truth because it looks like there's no way out. They keep hoping that the Democrats will "wake up" or "show some spine". It ain't gonna happen. Now that the Bush regime has pushed the establishment's agenda a little too far maybe the Democrats will get in. But they'll get in on the "we're not Republicans" ticket and we'll not get back much of what's been lost since the end of the Great Depression and the stagnation of the New Deal.

We can vote the Republicans out and we can vote the Democrats out but we can't vote the establishment out. People worry about crooked voting machines. It make little difference to the citizens if we can't vote those in power out; the corporatocracy

Our votes have power now before the election and that's the only time they do have power. Once they're cast their power is gone. If we act fast now we can use the power of our votes to dictate the platforms of both parties before the election. Tomorrow may be too late. Join the Lincoln Intiative and bring your friends. It's time to stand up to the two Republican parties and take control. The party won't "show some spine" but we can.
Bob Reichenbach
Director, The Lincoln Initiative.

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A Human Being first
Posted by: NowYogi on Sep 9, 2006 4:25 AM   
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For the survival of the planet, it might be a good idea (IF we are seriously interested in it) to 'define' ourselves as HUMAN individuals first, and men/women second.

I need to mention that many of the working class men I have known in my life see 'masculinity' in terms of muscle. The more muscular, the more male you are. I know many guys, unfortunately, who lift weights to gain muscle size to get the respect of other men...being the visual creatures that most men seem to be.

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» RE: A Human Being first Posted by: MartianBachelor
bad men are not real men
Posted by: StrongNSilent on Sep 9, 2006 7:00 AM   
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The article confuses bad men (jerks, assholes, thugs) with real men. Real men do not seek to control and dominate others unless its necessary to prevent them from causing harm. Like good vs. evil. If you want to get rid of evil men, then I agree.

If you cant see that men and women are different, then I dont know if I can help ya. The sky is blue, BTW.

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» RE: but bad women are real women Posted by: MartianBachelor
Put up or shut up
Posted by: Subversive on Sep 9, 2006 9:41 AM   
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Chop 'em off, Dude!

You certainly won't be the first man to surrender his masculinity.

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Emasculation is worse
Posted by: cwells on Sep 9, 2006 10:06 AM   
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Of course, the counter-argument is that most of today's ills are linked to the emasculation of the American male. Forced to suppress their natural urges to explore, fight, etc, they bring it back to their homes with negative results. The truth is, whether you like it or not, that men and women are very different. Give a woman a man's dose of testosterone and you've got a lunatic. Why? Because she hasn't grown up dealing with the drives it gives you and learning to control them. Double a man's dose and you've got the same problems. Perhaps we should just invent a pill that stops hormone production, eh, Mr. Brave New World? Then we can all be happy.

Being a man is a mixed blessing. As is, I'm sure, being a woman. Does that mean I want to stop being a man? That there's something wrong with it? No. I'm sure the author also claims to support diversity, and yet in this case argues against it.

Men and women are different. Don't just get over it, celebrate it. I for one like being human and being human means having a sex and all the things, good and bad, that go with. If you can't understand that then there's little doubt that you're going to be a really sad individual.

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the high cost of sissiness
Posted by: Mark5985 on Sep 9, 2006 2:28 PM   
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Robert Jensen, I refer you to a recently published article on CNN.com under the heading "Researchers: Men have 'warrior' psychology".

Chew on that, sissy man

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Hey Lauren get a clue!
Posted by: yellow on Sep 9, 2006 3:31 PM   
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They Jewish faith is NOT based on blood sacrifice of animals! Quite the opposite! Such a sacrifice is against the ten commandments prohibition on idolatry. Blood is also greatly feared in Judaism and rightly so! It may not be consumed hence the rules for Kosher slaughter of animals to be consumed. This is in order to fully eliminate blood which is unhealthy and highly prone to contaminents. FYI, the Jewish faith is based on G-d's covenent with Abraham and all his descendants. This convenant promised land in exchange for following in the path of the Torah or G-d's law.

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RE: The FakeLeft wants to make it Man vs Woman, White vs Black, just so it's not The Rich vs The Masses
Posted by: yellow on Sep 9, 2006 3:36 PM   
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you talk an awful lot about the fake left. does that mean would be willing to support the real left?

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I Would Love It if More Men Thought Like the Author
Posted by: Citizen0001 on Sep 9, 2006 4:48 PM   
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But enough seem to already. Every day I meet legions of men who are not assertive and do not go after what they want. Because of that, I have less competition and an easier time getting the projects I want at work, the women I want at the bar or club, and everything in between.

I can't tell you how many supervisors I've had tell me they wish they had another employee like me who actually took initiative and took care of things, got them done, and wasn't afraid to lead. And I can't tell you how many women I've been with who have said how great it is to find a man who goes for what he wants instead of pussyfooting around and trying to be "nice".

Guys, if you're reading this, I fully support you in following the author's recommendations. Gals, if you're reading, go ahead and tell the next guy you see that all girls really want are "nice guys". I'm all for the de-masculinization of society; it'll make everything easier for ME! Although my one qualm would have to be that it might take all the challenge out of life, and I'm a man who thrives on... *gasp*... competition.

But on second thought, nah, go ahead and emasculate yourselves, men. Just means more frustrated employers in search of a bold, dynamic, competitive worker who gets things done, and more sexually frustrated women in search of a man who goes after what he wants and gets what he wants. And that's good, for me.

Cheers,

Citizen0001

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Left Field
Posted by: Lucky Lou on Sep 9, 2006 9:20 PM   
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Wait one gosh darn minute, men acting less like men? Is this professor attempting to be "enlightened" with this preposterous proposal? Personally this seems a little upside down and inside out to me, a characteristic of nearly every "intellectual." Well I have a proposal of my own: Every professor should be made to work in the real world for a couple of years so they have a better bearing on reality.

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What the...?
Posted by: Ktflake on Sep 9, 2006 9:49 PM   
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Has this article been posted to littlepenis.com or something? All of the sudden we're being inundated by men who just don't get it. Feel threatened?

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the article brought tears to my eyes
Posted by: a.nonymous on Sep 10, 2006 5:34 AM   
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but they're only from laughing my arse off so hard!

Man up, nancy boy! The only bad thing about masculinity is your lack of it.

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what an absolute load of crap !
Posted by: nordicthunder on Sep 10, 2006 7:32 AM   
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this 'Man" has obviously been run over by so many radical feminists in his life, that he has become an absolute wuss, which is par for the course for most college "professors"

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Iron Man
Posted by: luminousball on Sep 10, 2006 9:48 AM   
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Please, please, please, all of you need to read Sex, Time, and Power by Leonard Shlain. In these pages a concise, plausible accounting of all of the differences that exist between men and women is laid out. Gender (read: cultural sex) and biological differences are addressed and in summary does not denigrate the role of men, women, gays, nor lesbians. The book, simply put, is genius! There are no simple, cut & dry answers to the friction ;() that exists betwixt the genders. It is what it is, so quit bitchin'! Peace!

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» RE: Iron Man Posted by: MartianBachelor
Ah! Yes, but look how quick we are to jump!
Posted by: solarjin on Sep 10, 2006 10:04 AM   
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I agree that the voracious march of manliness is the main superstition that drives our barbarian tides - but!, ah - we must remember that strength is not a bad trait, nor courage also traditionaly thought to be on mans side. In short - violence is not the only trait of the masculine, peon!

Chivalry is not yet dead - I would say that is my main contention in saving parts of our masculinity, we must not eradicate all of our imbred heritage - because Darwin was right, survival does happen most fortunately to the fittest - it then requires strength and courage (of the fit) to trustfully examine our fitness. Who in fact succeds in observing their own health other than the healthy human? Who is strong? Who is wise? What is natural...

Masculinity must stay, so must femininity. Though our barbaric nurturing must resign. We can surely re-define what is healthy and best constructive for our culture, then redefine masculinity and femininity as traits of the healthy sexes.

Homosexulaity, which is more or less the masculine model (naturaly male) going against his natural definition and concerning himself with the feminine model (thus unnaturally feminine.) This adjective, which is no better than the asexual... could become indeed indecent when humans have figured out what is naturally male and naturaly female is naturaly prescribed.

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Exposing Male reproductive harm
Posted by: crd on Sep 10, 2006 5:35 PM   
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This is exactly the point I'm making in a book I just published...I argue that ideals of masculinity have harmed men as well as women and have meant that we have profoundly neglected male reprodutive health. Testicular cancer rates have sky-rocketed, some evidence suggests that sperm counts have dropped by 40% world-wide, fewer baby boys are born, and there are higher rates of baby boys born with reproductive disorders. Because our culture doesn't want to look at male reproduction or recognize the potential weaknesses and vulnerabilities, these problems go unaddressed. Also, research shows strong relationships between paternal exposures and fetal health problems (miscarriages, birth defects, etc). But we fail to warn men about these associations.
If you are interested in these issues, you might want to look at my book, Exposing Men: The Science and Politics of Male Reproduction (Oxford University Press, 2006) Prof. Cynthia R. Daniels (Political Science, Rutgers University, New Jersey)

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» RE: xposing Male reproductive harm Posted by: MartianBachelor
Once again - Old news and bad journalism
Posted by: CaliforniaWill on Sep 10, 2006 5:59 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't this old news? You could easily transpose this article into the proper period vocabulary and it would be the lead in a Victorian newspaper. Don't these writers ever get out in the real world among the young people of today instead of basing all their "observations" on stereotypical behavior and television commercials?

While it's true that many men in Red & Blue states still cling, like dinosaurs, to outmoded behavior (and that's never more true than in Washington, DC), there are generations worth of men whose behavior belies all the b.s. spewed up in this article. Just as the stereotype of the young Southern Man is all about "pickup trucks, RCs, and Moonpies," so this stereotype of "masculinity" is about as viable in the modern world. Get a clue, journalists -- situations and circumstances breed the behavior responses, not the other way around.

Commercials and advertising doesn't present nor promote individuality, hence they fall back on the easy labels and homogenous "types," i.e. the beer, burger, and brainless man and the hot, caring, saavy woman. Guess what? Although, they exist, it's not the "total them."

There was a time that journalists actually knew (if sometimes superficially) what they were writing about. That time has evidently passed for most "practicing" the journalism trade.
Today, they drag out old school thinking and re-write the cliches and think they've made socially important "news." They haven't. All they've done is re-cycle the same old-same old.

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Real Men have Ethics- not slavish obediance to power and control
Posted by: dgrinn on Sep 11, 2006 12:08 AM   
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I agree with the author that men should re-examine what it means to be masculine. I especially liked his comment that the greatest insult a man can give to another man is implying he is like a female. If men only thought long and hard about what that really means. It means that men are insulted being considered female. I'm female, and I don't consider it an insult. In fact, a man is "better" if he has some feminine traits, like some emotional sensitvity. Otherwise, women are just stuck with men who are emotionally repressed psychotics...(and talk about 'damaged goods'). The traditional Native American culture for men is a good paradigm for modern men. The Native American man saw his aligence to Mother Earth, and all her beauty and bounty. He wasn't considered a whimp for that (except maybe to the invading immigrant anglo culture that was, and still is systematically destroying the Earth's ecosystem). The traditional Native American males form of war was not "killing" his opponent, it was "tagging" him, or "counting coup". Physical skill, but not ruthlessness. Honor and integrity, not slavish duty to madmen in charge, (such as the armies of Custer). Even Native American chiefs were subject to recall if their braves lost faith in him. To me, a real man is a man who maintains his ethics, if his leadership is corrupt or trecherousness and he does something to overthrow it, rather than perpetuating mindless obediance to following orders, but looses his self-respect (something the Nazis did and what I see as an American military emphasis). That's more like emulating the worst attributes of a woman, cowardly obediance... than being a real man with ethics.

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Confusing Masculinity with Social Order
Posted by: aks451 on Sep 11, 2006 9:02 AM   
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This so-called professor confuses "masculine" traits with qualities necessary for survival and maintaining social order.

Example # 1: A house catches fire. What would you rather have happen, the strongest in the community take charge (male or female), save lives and battle the blaze, or sit around gathering consensus on who should do what while the house burns and people die?

Example # 2: Two men are interested in the same woman. Do the two men then cooperate to share the woman? Or does the woman typically choose the one she prefers? How does she choose? Can anyone not see the competition inherent in this most common situation? Whether or not masculine or androgynous traits are preferred, the element of competition is there and always will be.

Example # 3: Two women are interested in the same man. In how many instances in all of history have women, with their superior feminine qualities of consensus building, expert relationship maintenance, sharing and cooperation, have ever "cooperated" to decide who gets the man? How many women would talk it over with their girlfriends and bow out if the man is giving her signals of interest too?

It is unrealistic to choose cooperation over competition. Both methods of decision making and maintaining social order are evident and necessary among most species. Predators cooperate on the hunt, AND compete for mates and leadership within the group. Prey animals cooperate to defend against predators AND they compete for mates.

The same is true for humanity. We cooperate in our endeavors AND compete for leadership / mates / resources etc. Some things we share, some things we fight for - male or female. The more precious the resource, or the more coveted the social position, the harder people will fight for it. Doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman.

Aggressiveness and a take charge attitude are not strictly male qualities. Dominating an opponent is the only way to prevail in combat. These are necessary qualities in dire situations, whatever the gender. We couldn't eliminate competition from our affairs if we tried. But we can change the ground rules of competition and delineate where and how it is appropriate to be aggressive, and where it is not.

And by the way - in offering (un)persuasive arguments to support his position, thus attempting to win people over to his point of view in the marketplace of ideas, this "professor" has undermined his entire thesis of emphasizing cooperation.

Way to go, Man!

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» Straw man. Posted by: sqqp
Guys will be nice when nice guys get laid!
Posted by: MartianBachelor on Sep 11, 2006 6:45 PM   
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From a biological standpoint, males and male behavior are the result of a breeding experiment run by females. To diss men is to diss the choices of everyone's mother, grandmothers, and great-grandmothers all the way back up the family tree. That's not what I'd call being a "real man". If they chose thugs, jerks, and bad boys of various sorts, as women tend to do today, then perhaps we need to do something about *that*. Oh no, we can't, cause that would be "controlling". Jensen is wasting his breath on men. He should be lecturing women on how to design breeding experiments for survival in a world far different from the stone age in which we evolved.

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Embrace the postive, not demonize the negative
Posted by: happy_bullet on Sep 11, 2006 8:01 PM   
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From my point of view today's culture is obsessed with eliminating gender differences. It is called Political Correctness.

Some of this stuff will never change, no matter how much people SAY they want it to:

(*) A man that refuses to compete will lose to one that does. One that says he does not has an advantage though.
(*) Women will choose winners of competition over losers. Ones that say they don't will appear more focussed on compassion and thus more desireable though.

Society does have a toxic view of masculinity, that is it's focus on "aggression" and "violence". Which are, to my mind, not key traits.

It is incorrect that there is a focus on this in business, or even the military. In those areas, there is a focus on "leadership". Which is a coexistence between aggression, ambition and cooperativeness. Quite simply, in many areas anyone with a focus on "seizing power", will simply be opposed by other people and go nowhere.

Actually, these days those institutions have adopted a politically correct view of "aggression and ambition" as being "bad" and have tried to stamp it out by emasculating the modern male. This has only really had the effect of making the modern male more covertly angry. The current corporate climate is more about covert political grabs for power. Not exactly masculine.

When I think of a masculine character, I always think of someone like King Arthur. The guy ruled Camelot justly and had a round table to eliminate any hierarchy between him and his knights. Nevertheless when it was time to take action and compete he stepped up.

Stand up for what is right, show honour, display leadership.

What is bad about that?

Frankly the article strikes me as typical of the self-loathing that has afflicted men of today's society. More than anything there is a crisis of MANHOOD, with masculinity being demonised as something that it is not.

I submit that an approach that would have a higher likelihood of increasing cooperation and compassion among men than this would be to hold the good things about masculinity in a positive light rather than just blanket demonizing it.

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Take charge, males!
Posted by: BlueTigress on Sep 11, 2006 10:27 PM   
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OK guys, had it with "traditional" masculinity? Don't do it, and don't hang out with guys who do. In time, the paradigm will shift so you can cry and sulk and be dizbrains just like women. Only downside is, you can't complain when your lady does too. Also, don't subscribe to "lad" magazines or anything else that portrays the type of masculinity you don't like. Business will respond when they see declining revenues.

I am married to a guy that most of you would have no trouble following. He is decisive and gives orders well. He can fix just about anything and drive anything that has at least 2 wheels.

He also expects me to know or be able to do everything he does. I have never been able to get away with saying "Honey the car is doing ____" and having him just fix it. I have to be able to at least take a shot at troubleshooting it.

He is also a caring, emotionally sensitive human being who likes to be able to help people when they need it.

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I Think It's Safe To Say This Article Is Disagreed With
Posted by: happy_bullet on Sep 12, 2006 1:45 AM   
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I dunno, maybe I shouldn't have even bothered posting my reply considering there was already, oh about 200 of 216 which already disagreed with the fool.

Looks like men kinda LIKE the "stereotyped" role of masculinity and furthermore think it is beneficial.

Funny that most of the people who agreed were women, and frankly that touchy-feely one pretending, oh I mean, saying, they were a guy sounded a bit suspect. Male castration, its a popular romantic fantasy. If we're to believe romance novels we marry them once that's accomplished... LOL.

I'd be willing to say 2 in 200 men agree with the article (and that's only because I'm including the writer of it).

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Thanks
Posted by: juliandroms on Sep 12, 2006 2:36 AM   
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Thanks, Jenson. While I understand that you are (ostensibly) an open-minded person and that you are (supposedly) accepting of others who live according to different designs, you'll have to understand, that I'm pretty happy with my own life as it is, and that I don't need help from you, and I don't need the types of suggestions that you offer.

Since you are someone who embraces diversity and since you are someone who opposes moral absolutism, I'm sure you will understand.

(And in case I'm wrong and you are not someone who embraces diversity, but you are a moral absolutist, I don't know what to tell you. I could listen to you, or I could listen to someone like Jimmy Swaggart -- I could listen to a lot of people. But alas, I prefer instead to listen to myself. QED I don't care what you think.)

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Case in Point
Posted by: Jim Shaw on Sep 13, 2006 1:21 PM   
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I think the author is on to something.

Here is a representative example of emails I get all the time, which are kind of funny but also kind of sad, and which I think illustrate his point:

International Rules of Manhood

1: Under no circumstances may two men share an umbrella

2: It is okay for a man to cry under the following circumstances:
a. When a heroic dog dies to save its master.
b. The moment Angelina Jolie starts unbuttoning her blouse.
c. After wrecking your boss' car.
d. One hour, 12 minutes, 37 seconds into "The Crying Game".
e. When she is using her teeth.

3: Any Man who brings a camera to a bachelor party may be legally
killed and eaten by his buddies.

4: Unless he murdered someone in your family, you must bail a friend
out of jail within 12 hours.

5: If you've known a guy for more than 24 hours, his sister is off
limits forever, unless you actually marry her. This is VERY important.

6: Moaning about the brand of free beer in a buddy's fridge is
forbidden. However, complain at will if the temperature is unsuitable.

7: No man shall ever be required to buy a birthday present for another
man. In fact, even remembering your buddy's birthday is strictly
optional.

8: On a road trip, the strongest bladder determines pit stops, not the
weakest.

9: When stumbling upon other guys watching a sporting event, you may
ask the score of the game in progress, but you may never, ever ask who's
playing..

10: You may flatulate in front of a woman only after you have brought
her to climax. If you trap her head under the covers for the purpose of
flatulent entertainment, she's officially your girlfriend.

11: It is permissible to drink a fruity alcohol drink only when you're
sunning on a tropical beach... and it's delivered by a topless
supermodel ..and it's free.

12: Only in situations of moral and/or physical peril are you allowed
to kick another guy in the nuts.

13: Unless you're in prison, never fight naked.

14: Friends don't let friends wear Speedos. Ever. Issue closed.

15: If a man's fly is down, that's his problem, you didn't see
anything, and why were you looking in the first place?

etc.

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» RE: Case in Point Posted by: morticia
» RE: Case in Point Posted by: MartianBachelor
try a larger view of the mess
Posted by: AHuman on Sep 15, 2006 7:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think RJenson's comments are much needed and a beginning. Only a beginning....the way we discuss these issues is vitally important if we ever hope to come to a place where we can all be in well being. My view is that all the comments made are short sighted and yet each holds a piece of validity. I say short-sighted because most of the comments contain unexamined elements of the teachings from "our fathers" we got from the institutions they created; elements that have not been questioned. What we all need to come to the truth of ourselves as humans requires a de-learning and de-programming. After spending over 17 years in women studies - that is, information produced by the mothers and not the fathers, I have a firm belief that all of us need to forget everything we ever learned and begin with an open mind and keep our eyes wide open to what we see. Those who will never have the experience of living in a world where all the information is produced by the mothers and the whole structure of society is created and categorized by the values and beliefs of mothers, which is all of us, will never know how deep in the valley of the fathers they are and we won't know what a system of actual freedom with no dominance would even look like. People who have only been taught the beliefs of a dominant system (no matter what the dominance is) that does not include the broader view of the lives of all of us...and encompassing and values all that is part of humanity, will naturally not be able to see beyond what they were taught until they choose to understand the limits and open their minds to go beyond what they think they know. And when they choose to do that, the learning that can be done is huge. Just think of what has come out of the loss of Catholic dominance in Europe. We, Americans who are essentially Euroopean refugees, had better think about the Reformation. Back then people died over issues of baptism. fast forward 500 years, and we got marriage on the table. We want freedom not dominance. Where will you fall in the challenge to the maledom system? If you believed that women have no history and you believed that nothing about women was important to know about and if you do not challenge the system that is built on this belief, you will have essentially learned the world is flat when it is round..man is not the center of the universe....everything you know is skewed, faulty and limited.....learning about women and knowing our history and creating a world of institutions of the other half of the world is only yet begun....male dominance can not be sustained, not because women and minorities will overpower men in power but because of the weakness in the structure that men have created and weaknesses in their lack of experience and knowledge in areas of life they do not understand and know personally.....and while many might be frightened of this.....the fear is only based in what has already happened. Just as it is time we deal with men's inventions that threaten, exploit, pollute, corrupt, and possibly destroy the whole of the physical planet, it is time we also deal and resolve the same behavior done to humans themselves. I have great hope for humanity......it begins with seeing the wrong inaccurate teachings and Robert Jenson is a beginning.

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» RE: try a Martian view of the mess Posted by: MartianBachelor
Males in Society. is this really the subject?
Posted by: Neilium on Sep 16, 2006 4:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have to thank the author for opening this can of worms that most 'men' either bury their head about, or keep it to themselves.
I would like to offer a suggestion to those posters here who I think may be better equipped with the following.
Eric Berne ' Games People Play'
and Warren Farrell's 'Why Men Are The Way They Are'
and also his more recent " 'The Myth Of Male Power'
Of course my opinion about why the western world has stuffed it for the rest of the planets inhabitants are Pure Greed combined with the lack of basic survival skills.

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The responses say it all...
Posted by: AlphaHusky on Sep 21, 2006 10:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look at all these responses, and how many of them are so very polarized. It says a lot about how far women and men have come, especially in this "post-feminist" era. ::eyeroll::

Jensen is talking about masculinity- not men! Even with all the agreements among social liberals about so many issues we are all facing together during this time of domination by neo-cons, it seems that few grasp that feminism has failed. When reading these comments, it seems that men are simply dismissing the article out of hand. It appears that a number of men read this article, got pissed off, and decided to post in a rather aggressive, self-righteous manner. Does that not "say it all" about the state of gender relations and how far feminism still has to go?

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All the Kings Men but not White Knights
Posted by: pbr90 on Sep 26, 2006 7:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author has captured what appears to be the essence of masculinity as it is measured by, encouraged, and perhaps, demanded by male society in America.

The standard for males is more to deny that emotions exist much in the form of Boston's Globe correspondent author, Donald M. Murray's 9/26/2006 article, Shutting Down Emotions in order to do combat.

Both articles portray the effects of ignoring emotions and how sexist a world is created by male refusal to let emotions influence how they conduct their lives - and may well be psychotic in a psychologically philosophical way that creates for women of the world one that is not only surreal, but harmful in its character with relation to human characteristics.

The dichotomy of women honored and relied upon for their emotional breadth, and warmth, and males who ignore their emotions to do daily life or combat is a situation that creates the gender divide that cannot be closed since they are at two extremes of the human emotional spectrum.

Whether males home from combat are deadened to emotional substance, or prefer to brace their emotional selves by ignoring their emotions, there is great harm for men and for women and for children in allowing men the license to ignore the emotional world and a world where at least 3/4 of the people in it accept emotions as necessary to human expression.

Measuring males by their ability to ignore emotions may unnecessarily thrust upon the world a world of heathen response that is not conducive to civility, to kindness, or to justice. Men have long known to be out of touch with their emotions, but the reality is that men have no need of emotions because in their dealings with other men, emotions are unacceptable, and shed like a snake's skin that is not useful.

The schizophrenia that at home they can convert to emotional beings is unrealistic and a highly toxic anathema to women or to children whose lives exist within the boundaries of sanity where emotions are assets, not detriments. This single feature, alone, may be responsible for the entire gender war and certainly contributes to domestic violence around the world where both women and children are subject to male lack of emotion and their inability to acknowledge their emotions long enough to learn to control them.

Using anger to overcome their ignorance of emotions, or because they have never learned to manage them properly results in an extraordinary burden of schoolyard, work, and dometic violence that the world must bear to indulge what has come to be the essence of male masculinity, wrongfully, and ignorantly.

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» RE: All the who-what? Posted by: MartianBachelor
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