COMMENTS: 180
Porn's Dirty, Dangerous Secret
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There are a finite number of ways that human bodies can be placed together sexually, and as one pornography industry veteran lamented to me at the annual trade show, "they've all been shot." He sighed, pondering the challenge of creating a sexually explicit film that is unique, and mused, "After all, how many dicks can you stick in a girl at one time?"
His question was offered rhetorically, but I asked: How many?
Probably four, he said; simultaneous oral, vaginal, and double-anal penetration was realistic. Another producer later in the day told me he had once worked on a film that included a double-anal/double-vag scene -- a woman being penetrated by four men at once. He said the director had a special harness made to hold the woman for that scene. In contemporary mass-marketed heterosexual pornography, it's unexceptional to see a standard DP (industry slang for "double penetration," with two men entering a woman vaginally and anally at the same time) with oral penetration.
Whatever the number, theoretical or routine, the discussion reminds us that pornography is relentlessly intense, pushing our sexual boundaries both physically and psychically. And, pornography also is incredibly repetitive and boring.
Pornographers know all this, of course, and it keeps them on edge.
These days there are about 13,000 pornographic films released each year, compared with about 600 from Hollywood. Not surprisingly, a common concern at the Adult Entertainment Expo each time I attended (in 2005, 2006, and 2008) was that the desperate struggle by directors to distinguish their films from all the others was leading to a kind of "sexual gymnastics." Lexington Steele, one of the most successful contemporary pornography performers and producers, put it bluntly: "A lot of gonzo is becoming circus acts."
"Gonzo" is the pornographic genre that rejects plot, character, or dialogue, offering straightforward explicit sex. Gonzo films are distinguished from "features," which to some degree mimic the structure of a traditional Hollywood film. According to the top trade magazine: "Gonzo, non-feature fare is the overwhelmingly dominant porn genre since it's less expensive to produce than plot-oriented features, but just as importantly, is the fare of choice for the solo stroking consumer who merely wants to cut to the chase, get off on the good stuff, then, if they really wanna catch some acting, plot and dialog, pop in the latest Netflix disc." ["The Directors," Adult Video News, August 2005, p. 54.]
In that description is considerable insight into why pornography (1) has always been boring and (2) will continue to become more brutal.
The industry works from the assumption that the men who consume the vast majority of commercial heterosexual pornography are not really human beings with hearts, minds and souls. In the porn world, a man is a kind of sexual robot in search of nothing more than the stimulation of pleasure circuits. In that world, the goal is to reduce human sexuality to the production of an erection and orgasm as quickly as possible -- get it up and get it off, efficiently. Pornography assumes not that a man has a penis but that a man is nothing more than a penis.
The pornographer faces one serious obstacle in all this: Men are human beings. No matter how emotionally deformed by the toxic conception of masculinity that is dominant in a patriarchal culture such as the United States, we are human beings with hearts, minds and souls.
No matter how much men try to cut themselves off from the emotional component of sex, that component never withers completely, and therein lies the potential problem for pornographers. When all emotion is drained from sex it becomes repetitive and uninteresting -- in a word, boring, even to men who are watching solely to facilitate masturbation. Because the novelty of seeing sex on the screen eventually wears off, pornographers who want to expand (or even just maintain) market share and profit need to give their products an emotional edge of some kind.
But pornography doesn't draw on the emotions most commonly connected with sex -- love and affection -- because men typically consume pornography specifically to avoid love and affection. So, the pornographers offer men sexual gymnastics and circus acts that are saturated with cruelty toward women; they sexualize the degradation of women. While most of us would agree those are negative emotions, they are powerful emotions. And in a patriarchal society in which men are conditioned to see themselves as dominant over women, such cruelty and degradation fit easily into men's notions about sex and gender.
When I offer this critique to men who are avid consumers of pornography, they often tell me that I'm wrong, that they watch gonzo and don't see the kind of cruelty and degradation that I am describing. They tell me that that there's no cruelty in a woman is being penetrated in aggressive fashion by three men who call her a whore throughout the sex. They tell me that when five men thrust into a woman's mouth to the point she gags, slap a woman in the face with their penises, and ejaculate into her mouth and demand that she swallow it all, there's no degradation.
In some sense, they are telling the truth -- they aren't seeing the cruelty and degradation because they are too caught up in the sexual arousal, and in such a state their critical faculties are derailed. They don't see it because they are men in a patriarchal culture focused on their own pleasure. To see the woman as a person deserving of respect -- to see her as fully human -- would interfere with getting it up and getting it off.
When I was a young adult who used pornography, I didn't see it either, because I had a stake in not seeing it. That's why after an orgasm I would quickly leave the theater or adult bookstore. That dates me, I know; my pornography use came before the VCR brought pornographic films into the home. But the pattern endures; many men I talk to today tell me that after masturbating they quickly take out the DVD or shut off the computer to avoid really seeing what is taking place on the screen. To slightly revise a cultural clich, when the little head's work is done, the big head re-engages. When the sexual experience is over, men can think, and when men can see the reality of pornography's contempt for women most don't want to watch.
These are general observations, an attempt to identify patterns in pornography. But the world is, of course, complex. There is considerable individual variation in the human species; not all men watch pornography for the same reason or have the same experience. And among those 13,000 films each year, there is variety. But there is a pattern to men's consumption of pornography and the industry's strategy to keep men consuming:
* Heterosexual men tend to consume pornography to achieve sexual satisfaction without the complications of dealing with a real woman. * Pornographers deliver graphic sexually explicit material that does the job, but to do so they must continuously increase the cruelty and degradation to maintain profits.
Gonzo producers test the limits with new practices that eroticize men's domination of women. Less intense forms of those sexual practices migrate into the tamer feature pornography, and from there in muted form into mainstream pop culture. Pornography gets more openly misogynist, and pop culture becomes more pornographic -- many Hollywood movies and cable TV shows today look much like soft-core pornography of a few decades ago, and the common objectification of women in advertising has become more overtly sexualized.
Where will all this lead? How far will pornographers go to ensure their profits, especially as the proliferation of free pornography on the internet adds a new competition? How much eroticized misogyny will the culture be willing to tolerate?
When I ask that question of pornography producers, most say they don't know. An industry leader such as Lexington Steele acknowledged he has no crystal ball: "Gonzo really always pushes the envelope. The thing about it is, there's only but so many holes, only but so many different types of penetration that can be executed upon a woman. So it's really hard to say what's next within gonzo."
What's next? What comes after DPs and double anals? What is beyond a "10 Man Cum Slam" and "50 Guy Cream Pie"? I can't claim to know either. But after 20 years of researching the pornography industry as a scholar and critiquing it as part of the feminist anti-pornography movement, I know that we should be concerned. We should be afraid that there may be no limit on men's cruelty toward women. In a patriarchal society driven by the predatory values of capitalism, we should be very afraid.
For further reading:
Strange Bedfellows: Can Feminism and Porn Coexist?
By Nikko Snyder, Bitch Magazine
Is Pornography Really Harmful?
Michael Bader, AlterNet
Art and Porn: An Interview with Editor Dian Hanson
By Liz Langley, AlterNet
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: aouie01 on Oct 21, 2008 12:59 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another example of association based cravings are how a lot of male humans who grew up watching the Hollywood adult-themed movies are now so disproportionately obsessed with ideas of (non-violent) threesomes (with two female humans and a male human).
While there is an increase in sexualized violence and degradation based videos, there is no shortage of people looking into other kinds of sex based movies. An example of a site that started of with the kind of sex talked about in the article, but then also included other kinds of sex for the mainstream adult video consumers would be Bangbros (who started off with Bang Bus).
As is often the case, people like the author tend to deal with this issue as an exploitation of female humans rather than as an exploitation of humans, including the consumers who pay for the sexual stimulus.
The author is probably also wrong about trying to get the consumers to orgasm as quickly as possible as being one of the goals. There are many people who now browse through a lot of pornography and spend much more time on it. Most are probably taking much more time per orgasm nowadays than about 20 years ago. It is also in the interests of the adult movie industry to get people to watch much more of their movies.
The author makes too many generalizations. I doubt most people who engage in consuming explicit sex materials are doing it in order to avoid love and affection. Most people in society, including male humans are very obsessed with finding a good person to love just like in all the television shows they grew up watching.
Sincerely,
Aouie
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» If we had an Attorney General w/integrity
Posted by: weathered
» RE: The author
Posted by: Cathyblj
» Thankful that Robert Jensen addresses the issue.
Posted by: aouie01
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jbuuty on Oct 21, 2008 2:05 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't doubt that some women, and men, find it a turn on to be filmed in the act, but I have serious doubts that the degrading treatment found in most such films is a turn on for psychologically and socially healthy individuals. Something is wrong somewhere.
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» Why?
Posted by: EinMD
» maybe through discussion and empathy
Posted by: thistleblower
» RE: Why? No mention of violence
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Can the Left find a way to oppose pornography
Posted by: sabrinamorgan
» FINALLY!
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: FINALLY!
Posted by: Jbuuty
» huh?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Can the Left find a way to oppose pornography
Posted by: Jbuuty
» Important honest and fair discussion even on unpopular viewpoints.
Posted by: aouie01
» If these trends are harmful or bad in some ways
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: If these trends are harmful or bad in some ways
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: Can the Left find a way to oppose pornography. All the left does is oppose pornography.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Can the Left find a way to oppose pornography. All the left does is oppose pornography.
Posted by: naryaquid
» RE: Can the Left find a way to oppose pornography. All the left does is oppose pornography.
Posted by: naryaquid
» RE: Can the Left find a way to oppose pornography. All the left does is oppose pornography.
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Eat Politicians on Oct 21, 2008 2:18 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He (Jensen) never actual backs up any of his claims with statistics on pornography or (heaven forbid) show sexual violence statistics in regions which prohibit pornography (which tend to have higher rates of sexual assault). He also set out to explain the worst areas of pornography and then assert that any consumer of porn is using worst-case scenario porn. No discussion of the topics of sex positive feminists are allowed. But here is a basic summary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism
If you want to argue sex workers rights and porn regulation, than sure. You're on the right track. But denying male and female sexuality isn't feminism, that includes all the gray area and negatives, instead it should be rationally discussed.
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» RE: Jensen's kind of a throwback
Posted by: AlexaD
» RE: Jensen's kind of a throwback
Posted by: anarchris
» RE: Jensen's kind of a throwback
Posted by: MamaPantz
» RE: Jensen's kind of a throwback
Posted by: AftrAftr
» RE: Jensen's kind of a throwback
Posted by: MamaPantz
» RE: Jensen's kind of a throwback
Posted by: mr. joshua
» RE: Jensen's kind of a throwback
Posted by: E.S.1964
» Jensen doesn't say that.
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: snideelf on Oct 21, 2008 4:15 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sometimes during the sex act, the woman would have her head forcefully dunked into the filthy commode.
When it comes to great sex, there is nothing like your own little porn movie when you are in a healthy, stable, mature relationship with someone you love or really care about.
(these days it's difficult to say)
But porn can and does get old fast.
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» RE: The last time I actually saw the latest porn, it was degrading
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: strahlungsamt on Oct 21, 2008 4:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I should know. As a guy with the looks and charm of Joe the Plumber, I spent most of my life struggling to get a woman. Either I walked around like a sad horn-dog trying to get a date, or I jerked off to a big pile of porn.
Believe me, women objectify men just as much as men objectify women. Plenty of times I have had a good job and women all told me I needed a good wife (when I couldn't bag a girlfriend). If I was the kind of Guido or Homeboy who beat his wife and wore bling-bling, I wouldn't need porn. Those guys get porn-star girlfriends all the time (along with credit card debt, repossession and stds).
I don't care for really abusive porn and I don't like seeing women being abused. And watching a woman being penetrated by four dicks is for gay guys on the DL.
Still, porn does it for me. I can jerk-off to porn in the morning and go to work and not think of pinching the secretary's ass or getting a blow-job in the (female) attorney's cubicle. I am not obsessed with mindless dating like the media is telling me to be. Nor do I have any sexual harassment lawsuits pending against me. The best part is: women actually approach me since I am less threatening and have a stable life.
Thank you Internet Porn.
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» RE: What about ugly men?
Posted by: xi_people
» RE: Any guy who would DP is a BI who should hang out with Jim McGreevy and Ted Haggard
Posted by: Jasonix
» RE: Living with unrealistic expectations...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: What about ugly men?
Posted by: Tobruck rock
» RE: What about ugly men?
Posted by: PJAW
» RE: Jomama and Josister
Posted by: Landbaron
» RE: What about ugly men? Good!
Posted by: curiousdwk
» ACT LIKE A MAN AND YOU WILL BE SEXUALLY DESIRED
Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» RE: ACT LIKE A MAN AND YOU WILL BE SEXUALLY DESIRED
Posted by: Symp
» "I walked around like a sad horn-dog trying to get a date"... that's probably why
Posted by: Smackback
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PJAW on Oct 21, 2008 4:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having said that, I pretty much agree with the writer, some of this stuff is disgusting. I've never needed to witness gross episodes of abuse and degradation to manage the process, and I'm a little concerned for those who do. I doubt the porn discussed creates those needs, but it certainly feeds them, and implies they're okay. On the other hand, can we get out of Iraq already?
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» RE: Gone are the days
Posted by: MamaPantz
» And if, as a man...
Posted by: dbarber
» RE: And if, as a man...
Posted by: MamaPantz
» RE: And if, as a man...
Posted by: login@bugmenot.com
Comments are closed-
Posted by: xi_people on Oct 21, 2008 5:17 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author is creating the false impression that "most" porn is violent and disgusting. This simply is NOT the case. There are fringe audiences for practically ever endeavor known to humankind. I would submit that the vast majority of those who enjoy watching porn would be absolutely repulsed by the scenarios described in the article. That kind of stuff is not common, and I submit, not watched very often relative to the scenarios involving more traditional sexual encounters.
There is absolutely nothing implicitly wrong with receiving pleasure, and "pleasuring" oneself, via watching porn. There's a reason that prostitution is the world's oldest profession. Both men and women crave sex, and in the absence of the real thing, why not have a little fun with fantasy?
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» RE: Overgeneralization
Posted by: MamaPantz
» RE: Sorry, but you're wrong
Posted by: xi_people
» RE: Overgeneralization
Posted by: Cathyblj
» RE: Overgeneralization
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Overgeneralization
Posted by: Cathyblj
» RE: Overgeneralization
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Overgeneralization
Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Overgeneralization
Posted by: Crazy H
» "So those yelps of pleasure you think you're hearing, are actually yelps of pain."
Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» RE: Overgeneralization that the author lumps all porn together
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: curiousdwk on Oct 21, 2008 5:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, there were a few references to men watching this in order to "avoid" real relationships. That shows both contempt and ignorance of the subject of this supposed 20 year "study". I, and I'm sure many others, watch it because of a void of real realationships and not to avoid. If I had a choice, I would choose a real relationship. But women are not interested in having a sexual realtionship with me so that is why I resort to watching erotic films.
This article would have been much better if the strong emotional bias and prejudice of the author weren't so evident.
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» No kidding.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: corgyn on Oct 21, 2008 6:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My girlfriend DEMANDS you cum in her mouth, she has been having multiple sex partner experiences [gang bangs] for 20 years, on her own for personal satisfaction. She loves it when we sell a photo set or movie. She also loves DP so much that she will stick a dildo in her anus while we have vaginal sex because she loves the sensations.
While some porn might be degrading, some women really do like to be ridden hard and put away wet
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» I'll agree....
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Not all that far from Real World
Posted by: HANGTRAITORS
» RE: Not all that far from Real World
Posted by: Cathyblj
» Everyone doesn't have to be like her...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» One question
Posted by: Axiom69
» Sex hungry women
Posted by: Democratic Socialist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: gellero1 on Oct 21, 2008 6:12 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm bored with this.
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Oct 21, 2008 6:26 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, where is the discussion of the effect this has on males? Not as it affects the women in their lives, but as it affects the men themselves.
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» RE: And where...
Posted by: MamaPantz
» RE: And where...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: And where...
Posted by: Cathyblj
» RE: And where...
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: And where...blah...blah...blah
Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: And where...blah...blah...blah
Posted by: Cathyblj
» RE: And where...blah...blah...blah
Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: And where...blah...blah...blah
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: And where...
Posted by: Blue Heron
» whoa whao whoa.. concern for the "other"?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Comments are closed-
Posted by: oscarg on Oct 21, 2008 6:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Jensen is correct
Posted by: sabrinamorgan
» "...appealing to the last vestiges of male ownership of female sexuality"
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Well, it may come as a surprise for you to discover that
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: Well, it may come as a surprise for you to discover that
Posted by: oscarg
» RE: Jensen is correct
Posted by: buddyedgewood
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Mexitli on Oct 21, 2008 6:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Man, Euros are FREAKS! [Mexitli = RACIST]
Posted by: Democratic Socialist
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Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Oct 21, 2008 6:53 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There has always been a strain of sincere Puritanism on the Left. Indeed Karl Marx used prostitution, syphilis, and homosexuality as propagandist proof of the Evil of Capitalism ... which would just naturally pass away with the coming of Scientific Socialist State -- and the withering thereof. And when you consider both the prevalence and the consequences of prostitution among proletarian Victorian women, it's easy to see why he would say/think so.
Today the porn trade depends on women who although not prostitutes, illegal immigrants, drug addicts or sweatshop workers -- "just simply don't know what's good for them." These deluded females think they can engage in sexual athletics for the profit of (mostly male) producers and NOT be degraded in the process. THEIR opinions and feeling on the subject are simply not welcome in this discussion -- "degraded" as they are, how can their judgment be considered of any more worth than they are?
Look, to Robert Jensen's credit, Porn is not his whole obsession. Having long lamented the media obscurity of authentic "Far" Leftists, and near invisibility of a true Religious Left I should not object to Jensen noticing that "sex sells" -- whether you promote impurity for profit, or you condemn it loudly to gain media access for the rest of your message.
Jensen is absolutely "Not Wrong". The Gonzo porn is NOT "erotic art" we had hoped was coming when "Joy of Sex" was first published. Commercial porn IS mostly it is nasty, repetative, stereotypically sexist, -- and when you come down to it, rather sad. (Of course if one isn't obsessed by the Sex Issue ... the same can (and should) be said of Soap Opera, Fanboy comix and Action movies.)
Of course ... when Comes the Revolution ... men will become Eng lightened, and will voluntarily give up Consumerism, Meat Eating and Porn Addiction. (It worked such a treat in Russia and China, after all.)
And until then ... one can write diatribes.
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» RE: Once one has decided that sex is bad and evil
Posted by: sabrinamorgan
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Posted by: EinMD on Oct 21, 2008 6:56 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, that's right. That's the sexualized cannibalism of females and it was one of the most disturbing things I ever saw.
Got an A on the report for it.
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» RE: There are worse things on the net
Posted by: cyr3n
» RE: There are worse things on the net--it's true and it's already been happening in the Congo
Posted by: schnak
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Posted by: loxias on Oct 21, 2008 7:04 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In many societies today where porn is discouraged or illegal, it is still possible to beat "your" woman to death for a sexual impropriety and pay little or no consequences.
Personally, I'd rather live in a society where a girl can choose* to let 4 guys pee on her for money than one where 4 guys can rape a girl, and the court sentences the girl to being whipped. Of for that matter, charged for the rape kit.
I can agree that violence and porn have been commingled moreso than ever in the interest of generating wealth, however I don't think it is fair to wag the finger at males only. There are literally tens of thousands, or more, beautiful women who line up to make these films. I personally cannot fathom why attractive, educated women would choose to enter themselves into the annals (do I get a point for that one?) of time on all fours with 2 guys up their butt. However, I, for one, will not stand in their way.
If the author is so feminist, he would do well to serve them by aiding in the discovery of what it is that makes people subject to this type of behavior. We know that given the opportunity to enrich oneself, many will do anything necessary. Whether it be to film violent sex, perform violent sex, or sell depictions of violent sex, it seems myopic to claim general male desensitization as the cause. Personally, I think television is a much better starting point for this discussion. That is where 75% or more of the people in the US get their chosen* opinions and behavioral cues.
*Personally, I think "choice" is an illusion, and tend to lean toward materialism. However, the lack of true free will extends across the gender barrier, and is why castigating (point 2?) males is a pointless exercise.
In the words of the bard, "Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
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Posted by: anarchris on Oct 21, 2008 7:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
women's choices to be a sex worker, stripper, porn star are rejected not by domineering men but by feminists. now female teachers molest their male students and its called 'having sex with' and not rape and they end up on the cover of people magazine and rape victims are heard to say' i feel sorry for HER.' now when police are asked how to protect our children from child molesters the reply is 'i never hire men as baby sitters...cause let's face it, men have a predisposition towards sex.'
liberalism has lost its mind. it has lost site of what it was trying to achieve. its just another cult of ideology, a false religion that makes itself the measure of everything and not its stated goals and values. there are no true liberals anymore only pseudo liberals. anyone who is a true liberal, evolved long ago into something more transcendent that uses frameworks and ideas and a tool and not an end in themselves. love means lovingly embracing what we are warts and all, not cramming it into another one size fits all mold.
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» RE: pc
Posted by: lightwing1
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Posted by: RedFoxOne on Oct 21, 2008 7:28 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jiff
Privacy Center
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Posted by: dbuskirk1 on Oct 21, 2008 7:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: USAFVeteran1966 on Oct 21, 2008 7:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
More obvious than his obsession with porn is Jensen's mistaken motive -- that "men typically consume pornography specifically to avoid love and affection."
Get real, Professor. Speak from your own experience. You know full well it's the ABSENCE of love and affection that causes me to use porn excessively.
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» RE: Because of A Void, not To Avoid
Posted by: curiousdwk
» CORRECTION: "causes me..." should be "causes men..." Luckily I have plenty of love in my life.
Posted by: USAFVeteran1966
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Posted by: cyr3n on Oct 21, 2008 7:45 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Better yet: new use for stem cells!
Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» RE: Better yet: new use for stem cells!
Posted by: Axiom69
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Q30 on Oct 21, 2008 7:46 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey, let's revisit the great Alternet porn debates of the past...
Feminist: "Pornography causes violence!!"
Me: "Can you provide any proof?"
Feminist: "Pornography causes VIOLENCE!! Why do you love VIOLENCE so much?!"
Me: "Repeating the assertion louder doesn't count as proof."
Feminist: "ZOMG MISOGYNIST!!!!"
THE END
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» LOL!
Posted by: GuitarBill
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Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Oct 21, 2008 8:04 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: BST on Oct 21, 2008 8:19 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No partner ... a partner who is unwilling, incapable or unavailable ... for education ... to keep the machinery oiled ... and because it's a hoot to tickle the tuna in solitary once in a while without an added-on discussion of family debt or what the kids ate for supper.
Watching human beings get and give pleasure -- and riding the buzz as an observer -- is perfectly normal. This is as old as time and the days of peephole houses.
I'd guess that the preponderance of women and men would love a relationship that's warm, secure, loving and busting out with great sex.
Just ain't in the cards for everyone. But let's not denigrate men (or women) who lack this opportunity for seeking alternatives.
We're animals after all.
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» RE: Aw, it ain't all that awful
Posted by: Juven
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Posted by: TKirwin on Oct 21, 2008 8:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I recognize that there are a number of people who have what I would also feel are disturbing interests as it relates to porn, but it is not one singular and inescapable direction and not everyone feels that way.
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Posted by: counterpoint on Oct 21, 2008 8:40 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: axjxhx on Oct 21, 2008 8:42 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: tired....
Posted by: BST
» RE: tired....
Posted by: axjxhx
» Not Even Remotely Trying to Understand
Posted by: curiousdwk
» RE: Not Even Remotely Trying to Understand
Posted by: axjxhx
» RE: Not Even Remotely Trying to Understand
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Not Even Remotely Trying to Understand
Posted by: axjxhx
» RE: Not Even Remotely Trying to Understand
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: tired....
Posted by: Juven
» RE: tired....
Posted by: axjxhx
» F****** nut....
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Don't be so quick to mock Ms Solanas
Posted by: Q30
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Posted by: Juven on Oct 21, 2008 8:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pornography is as J.G. Ballard says "the most political form of fiction as it deals with how we use and exploit each other in them most urgent and ruthless way."
Modern day porn is a metaphor for capitialism. There is no escape from that--and this is a consideration that is not brought up in this article-- the films, and the performers are in and being made to make money! Lesson learned? Anything can be bought!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poNZmxDb9A8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bVkx5Nvits
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» And that might be the only lesson to learn.
Posted by: Coleman
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Posted by: BST on Oct 21, 2008 9:02 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The combination of mainstream TV, film and porn images of "perfection" has helped produce a society so obsessed with looks -- looks that look like what has been marketed to us -- that there is total confusion over what is simply advertising and what is actually sensuous.
Men who are far from the standard for handsome can have sex appeal (and prowess) beyond belief. Same for women (I know because I am one and never was a cover girl).
Truly sensual people are not the product of Botox and lifts and reshapings; they have that je ne sais quoi in the walk, the talk, the tilt, the lilt, the swagger, the eye contact, the smile, the respect for other people.
Porn and MSM media has duped many of us into believing that a great face and body will deliver satisfaction and the opposite, modest looks, will not. Just ain't necessarily so.
This mythology may be the greatest rip-off to emerge from the age of porn and may explain why so many relationships go bad. Expectation is planned disappointment.
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» RE: Bait and switch
Posted by: lewb
» RE: Bait and switch
Posted by: BST
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Posted by: MartianBachelor on Oct 21, 2008 9:59 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately, Jensen reveals with this statement rather abundantly that he himself doesn't view men as human beings either, but rather as pawns in the feminist ideological battle over sexual politics. This necessitates using the most extreme and emotionally charged examples he can find to make his overly stretched point.
America hasn't been a "patriarchy" in at least a century. The inconvenient fact is it's the most feminized countries (i.e., The West, generally) which are the most porn-permissive cultures. The most porn-restrictive cultures are the most traditional and patriarchal, where women are the most oppressed and abused (Middle East, China, India, etc.). It is in the former where The New Sexism portrays masculinity as "toxic", and barely if ever gives men credit for being anything other than testosterone poisoned beasts or bumbling incompetent idiots. (Jensen evidently has no concern for such degradation.) Is it any wonder men don't have any reason to believe women actually like them?
I think Jensen just doesn't want to face the fact that men are voting en masse with their feet by finding porn, however crummy it generally is, better on the whole of it than today's women. Women control the economy of eros, so it must be obvious why most resent porn: porn undercuts their monopolistic lock on the market, and they feel that they are being forced to compete with an unrealistic ideal contrived by male fantasies (something which they most adamantly resist doing) -- just as men feel the same way when they view the sort of cardboard cutout portrayals of men in female porn, which is pretty much ubiquitous on mainstream network TV. The difference is female porn is celebrated, with shows like Sex & The City being claimed to be "empowering".
Instead of trying to understand all this, Jensen's knee-jerk neanderthal response is to try and play the traditional male role of woman's protector and hero by trying to shame men and calling them all sorts of unkind names rather than place the responsibility in its correct location. Yea, he may get a pat on the head from feminists, but it's my view that partial vision is evil, and that's what he most exhibits by focusing on only one part of the picture. The constructive way to approach the many men who have backed off from women would seem to be anything other than lecturing at them in disgust like some church lady.
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» Who Defines Masculinity in our Culture?
Posted by: curiousdwk
» When DID you look at a Bride Magazine?
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian on Oct 21, 2008 10:41 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pointless and PATHETIC!
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» RE: Gee whiz!
Posted by:
» RE: Gee whiz!
Posted by: goeswithness
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Posted by: batmagoo on Oct 21, 2008 11:01 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Beware the Blindspot in this article: It misses the psychological needs of a deflated male ego.
Posted by: curiousdwk
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Posted by: Coleman on Oct 21, 2008 12:34 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bottom line: under capitalism, many people earn wages in dangerous occupations. Take soldiers (for an example that usually escapes liberal sympathies) or fire fighters or deep-sea fisherman. There's also a broad spectrum of degrading occupations. I'd include any retail service job in this category, as well as the third world immigrant scrubbing the toilets in your office building (who is so poor that she watches her porn on VHS!), and also porn actresses, sure.
And in all these situations there are currents of sexism and racism, that demand special analysis. The proliferation of violent or degrading imagery is a worthy phenomenon of study. Our popular porn does say something about our culture, just like any other "text". Our fantasies are not entirely our own.
But that analysis is possible without the quite unbelievable moralizing sermons that we've endured from Jensen on AlterNet for the past year. Aside from being boring, they're theoretically suspect.
Again, let's compare two of the exploited: soldier and porn actress. [And we need not mention again the difference in sympathy we would encounter from the typical liberal, a token of his hypocrisy]. A prohibition (legal or ethical) against certain kinds of porn no more liberates the porn actress than a peace treaty with Russia (or whoever) liberates the soldier. Both laws, if they were ever to come to pass, would leave open the black market space of transgression in the form of illegal porn and mercenaries. Indeed, this is already the case.
The only scenario that frees both the soldier and the porn actress is their liberation from the very compulsion to sell themselves on the market, liberation from the absolute injustice everywhere, from the safest and most air-conditioned retail spaces to the filthiest brothel. And toward that end, the Left needs to disassociate itself with guilt-peddling, miserable, moralizing liberals who cherry pick victims to sell their well-researched books.
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» RE: Thank you, Mr. Jensen for...
Posted by: curiousdwk
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Posted by: TJColatrella on Oct 21, 2008 1:25 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author omitted the growing success of sites featuring S&M and there seems to be a growth in those with equal financial success and popularity..does the author see them as degrading for either the male or female acting as the submissive..?
Let's also consider that this "degradation" is also a symptom and response to the Women's Liberation movement, and the fact that men feel they are in the courts nothing less than fodder for the machinery and industry that has become..so ridiculously slanted all too often against them..
It seems to me the author has her own issues in regard to pornography and this is not to argue it has negative effect upon those who consume great amounts of it or even addicted to it..and it is addictive and causes depression and usual these days linked to over exposure online also addictive and a cause of depression..
The onset of Aids also turned many towards pornography as it had an effect upon the chances for men to met and share a sexual relationship with a woman on a casual basis as prior to the Aids outbreak occurred..
Often in these multiple partner type films it is also pretty obvious the women involved are hardly under duress, or less than willing to have multiple men penetrate them and their own references to themselves are that of "slut" and "whore"...and this seems to stimulate them as well as the degrading language the men use to make reference to them...
To sum up there is an old saying that comes to mind and seems applicable and that being:
"They suffer least, who suffer what they choose..!"
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» The author is a man, and people do suffer from their choices, especially some made in youth
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: lewb on Oct 21, 2008 1:33 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to pornography,maybe it will become commonplace and passe,one can hope. I agree with the analysis that more graphic,violent perverted,sexual acts on screen is a looming menace to us all. Information disseminated about this menace is a valuable tool to stem this tide. some mechanism to take the profit motive out of this is also needed.I hope other solutions will surface to derail this profit at any price corporate strategy.
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Posted by: buschthebearrefreshing on Oct 21, 2008 1:32 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With that in mind, there is one thing about which Jensen did surprise me: He forgot to mention those terrible mind-destroying deadly threats to the world, the nonexistent snuff films!
Oh, well. The next time you publish such an article, maybe you can produce an article that is about the amount of damage caused by reading/watching/listening to pornography while the air conditioner is running on the hottest day of the year.
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» Problem with Violence? or with Sex?
Posted by: curiousdwk
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Posted by: Explorer on Oct 21, 2008 5:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I suggest comparing different cultures from different places and time periods to see if there is more violence against women and more lack of equality in the ones with more puritannical attitudes. The failure to notice that is the biggest similarity between the far right and the far left.
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Posted by: blogbooks on Oct 21, 2008 7:16 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a VERY large contingent of men that don't know what you're referring to with all your talk of "feelings." These men are out there to impregnate women at a rapid pace.
The vast majority don't bother raising their kids.
You've been brainwashed by feminists and their pseudo-intellectual psycho-babble.
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» RE: You've been feminized
Posted by: sanaa
» I just have to wonder what you've been brainwashed by.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: I just have to wonder what you've been brainwashed by.
Posted by: blogbooks
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Posted by: DaBear on Oct 21, 2008 10:25 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then the usual feeding frenxy by the anti-porn whackos and the defenders of good gonzo fuckage lash back, blah blah blah yada yada flim flam.
Bottom line, Robert, you're so good but you're also so full of shit. I'm not reading you any more.
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» RE: I no longer read Robert Jensen on this topic
Posted by: Ruddock
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Posted by: Democratic Socialist on Oct 21, 2008 10:45 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: talkville on Oct 22, 2008 1:08 AM
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Oct 22, 2008 5:40 AM
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WHEN DO WE ACTUALLY GET TO HEAR THE VOICES OF WOMEN WHO HAVE ACTUALLY WORKED IN THE INDUSTRY, RATHER THAN SCOLDS WHO TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES TO SPEAK FOR THEM ABOUT THEIR SUPPOSED PAIN AND EXPLOITATION???
If it is so bad, then there should be truckloads of them.... but Alternet never has them write an article. I have to wonder why.
When do we actually get to hear from any of these supposed victims firsthand????
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» My point was...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» With links to MILF & 8th St. Latinas too !!
Posted by: gellero1
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Posted by: wisegalah on Oct 22, 2008 5:35 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a good friend of mine wrote some time ago; "Penile contact with a thousand vaginas does not amount to a single loving encounter with a complete woman."
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» RE: Pornography = synthetic life for the personally inadequate.
Posted by: goldmarx
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Posted by: Levon on Oct 23, 2008 9:06 AM
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Posted by: glorybe on Oct 23, 2008 9:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In fact these women do not belong in the industry if they can not enjoy the sexual acts that they help to sell to the public. They are able. They are liberated. They also make a lot of money.
What is degrading is being forced to flip hamburgers when a woman could be making thousands per day in the porn industry.
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» But that would mean.. GASP!... letting women decide for themselves!!!
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: sptunik on Oct 23, 2008 11:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Porn producers are not going to have any idea what men want to see any more than Jensen does, or what it's purpose is-- and I agree with the other critics who have responded here who note that his article is full of generalizations.
Here are my own: Most men have a part of themselves that fetishizes aggression. However, most men will actually recoil from aggression after they've seen depictions of it repeatedly. They take a step back, they say, "What am I doing?" And they move on. This is just what I've observed. For every guy that gets sucked in deeper, and falls into the addicts cycle of needing escalating stimulation, there are five guys who go the opposite direction. When they actually see what they may have fantasized about-- occasionally and briefly-- it becomes a turn-off.
That's porn's real dirty secret. Most men get sick of it. And if you've seen others doing something abusive on screen, and been repelled by it, you're probably less likely to try it at home.
Jensen should probably find another field of study. No one should work in the porn industry for more than a few years. He seems to see himself in a very different category from the porn producers themselves, but this distinction is lost on me. He describes the acts in such vivid detail that... methinks he doth protest a bit too much. All he's doing is drawing more attention to aberrant behavior, and most of us have had quite enough of that. I, too, am sick of the way porn has invaded our culture-- the slutty reality TV stars, leaked sex tapes, entrapment by organizations like Perverted Justice, sleazy show like SUV Law and Order. They are all working in the porn business, and they've cheapened our society. If you don't like it, don't buy their products, don't participate. Or if you do, have a look and move on. I know Jensen thinks he's helping, but I respectfully disagree.
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Posted by: PointMan on Oct 23, 2008 10:26 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh?
You mean the values of capitalism where DC run corporate crime bails out its fellow criminals under martial law on the public dime? That's not a society run on "capitalism" and hasn't been for a long, long time. Try a "predatory" police state.
The dirty, dangerous secret about porn?
If men got all the sex they needed, porn (and its supposedly horrid effects on culture) wouldn't exist. Neither would wannabe "experts" on porn.
This piece and the bulk of its unsupported fear mongering assumptions are a crock.
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» RE: Another "expert" professor without a CLUE
Posted by: talkville
» RE: Another "expert" professor without a CLUE
Posted by: PointMan
» What should be understood about Jensen and the like...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: scenery on Oct 24, 2008 7:54 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wanting love and affection?
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» Hey, some people enjoy DP
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: jmmartin on Oct 25, 2008 11:19 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here we go again with the "typical," which is like "normal" in that reference is made to some mythical consumers of X-rated materials. Did it never occur to the writer that there are a wide variety of reasons why men (and some women) consume porno? For example, a man might have E.D. and might not be inclined to use prescription drugs, or they might be in a situation where real live sexual outlets are simply minimal or non-existent. And what about the people who have a phobia about contact with others, e.g. in the Age of AIDS. I suspect that the motives for using porno are just as varied as the people who don't. You don't say, "Typically, a non-porno user is an uptight moral casuist who only screws in the missionary position for the purpose of siring offspring." So why this "typical" stuff -- a logical fallacy, by the way.
Lest you say, "Methinks he doth protest too much," I can head you off at the pass and admit it.
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Posted by: hackbut on Oct 25, 2008 3:40 PM
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I use porn to keep it alive and perhaps to keep myself younger. I thoroughly dislike the most exploitative porn and would like to find a source of what I might call affectionate porn. I'm not talking about a plot as in a movie but I am talking about encouinters, perhps with a bit of fantasy and role playing, where there is regard for the humanity of both parties so that it looks like something that might actually happen to normal people.
Some years ago I recall interesting comments that one of the reasons the authorities did not move more strongly against porn was that as long it did not show any facsimile of love it served the purposes of the puritanical and authoritarian by making sex look degrading and therefore turning people off on it, and that the porn they would crcack down on would be that which looked attractive, and thus there is no crackdown.
If we were all sexually fulfilled it would be a great world, and more importantly a lot harder to control. Ideally we would all be in relationships where each person's purpose would be to cherish and care for the other (and perhaps get the same back) but failing that we would all be liberated by the kind of softer porn which increasingly unavailable today.
Maybe again it's just the man and the suits taking our freedom away by making porn as disgusting and violent as possible.
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Posted by: whealeydj on Oct 26, 2008 5:58 AM
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Posted by: whealeydj on Oct 26, 2008 6:12 AM
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Posted by: Dr T on Oct 26, 2008 8:02 PM
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» RE: Men
Posted by: login@bugmenot.com
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Posted by: agoodbadhabit on Oct 29, 2008 7:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I personally know women who enjoy participation in such activities; the "cruelty" and "degradation," if a factor at all, is part of the scene.
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Posted by: jc1234 on Nov 7, 2008 11:44 AM
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The religious right will think that its a 'librul' America thing not fully understanding how China and India has populated their countries with such overwhelming and food-resource-scary numbers of people. Apparently the religous types think the indians and chinese just got married and had some kids and voila' a billion plus people are generated because they just wanted another 'miracle' of birth that they wanted to love and nurture into adulthood.
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