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Sex and Relationships

Craigslist Is the Newest Target in the War on Prostitution

By Liliana Segura, AlterNet. Posted September 12, 2007.


Having largely failed to make a dent in sex solicitation on the streets, law enforcement is now using Craiglist to bust people trading money for sex.
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Forget Larry Craig.

It might have taken one foot-tapping senator in an airport bathroom stall to make it fresh news, but the undercover sex sting has been a media favorite long before anyone outside Idaho heard the name of the ruined senator. With phenomena like "To Catch a Predator" and the steady outing of high-profile pastors and politicians keeping it in the public consciousness, sordid sex is big news these days.

Now law enforcement is increasingly focused on the Internet in going after sex crimes; with parents nationwide convinced their child will be the next to be sexually predatored, perhaps it was only a matter of time before their target would become ... Craigslist.

On Sept. 5, the New York Times ran a front-page story: "As Prostitutes Turn to Craigslist, Law Takes Notice." According to the piece, the Nassau County Police Department has been trolling Craigslist's Erotic Services section -- labeled "the high-tech 42nd St." by one police chief -- since last year, responding to ads and even posting false ads to lure unsuspecting clients. It's a low-energy, higher-tech sex sting, and the result has been over 70 arrests, and counting.

The Times story came at the heels of a story in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, which reported on local mayor Shirley Franklin's attempt to hold Craigslist responsible for promoting child prostitution. "Children are being marketed through Craigslist," the mayor announced, calling on the site to remove its sexually suggestive material. Adding that Craigslist is a "place where men meet men to arrange sexual encounters in the bathrooms at Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport," the story elicited predictable outrage and denunciations.

One blogger lambasted the story. "By blaming Craigslist, demanding that it take down these ads and making a big public stink about this, all the mayor's office is doing is pushing those who are really doing illegal activities to move elsewhere where they're less easily tracked and caught," said a contributor for TechDirt.com. "But, apparently going after those who are actually doing illegal activities doesn't get you as much press as blaming some website."

Craigslist is getting press all right. One Arizona radio personality has labeled it "a clearinghouse for gay sex" and police nationwide have complained that Craigslist is facilitating prostitution ("It's a pretty fine line between promoting prostitution and allowing advertising," says the commander of the Nassau County Narcotics and Vice Squad).

But the Times piece wasn't about a site in peril. In fact, Craigslist is pretty solidly protected by law. (The Communications Decency Act of 1996 dictates that owners of websites cannot be held responsible for user-generated content -- the very definition of Craigslist.) Instead, as the cheap, easy, and anonymous alternative to street corners nationwide, Craigslist has proven not just irresistible for hookers: it's proving irresistible to police.

Across the country, police departments are logging on to Craigslist in search of potential sex criminals and the resulting numbers look pretty good at first glance. This past July, for example, Chicago police arrested more prostitutes via Craigslist than they did on the streets: 60 versus 43. An ad placed on Craigslist Seattle caught 71 customers this past November, "including a bank officer, a construction worker and a surgeon," according to the Times. In Jacksonville, Florida, " a single ad the police posted for three days in August netted 33 men, among them a teacher and a firefighter." And an arrest this summer in Sandpoint, Idaho ("population 8,105"), the local police chief reported, "was probably our first prostitution case since World War II."

So this is ... progress?

Depends. In an era when Congress is passing laws to allow warrantless wiretapping, it would seem pretty naïve to be surprised -- or outraged -- at the idea that the police may be monitoring people's internet use. But are the ends really justifying the means? Are we really safer after the arrest of that surgeon or firefighter? And what exactly do these arrests amount to? As with sex sting operations of yesteryear, it would seem the answer is: not much.

In Feb. 2005, the New York Times ran a story about a different anti-prostitution scheme, this one focused on training young female cops to walk the streets as "decoys." "Call them the newest recruits for the oldest profession," wrote the author, explaining that the point was to targeting the demand ("johns") rather than the supply (hookers.) This particular mission had been around for more than a decade, but had been temporarily suspended amid budget shortages. Now it was back, albeit with the same title: "Operation Losing Proposition."

The Times article struck a sassy note: ("Every woman has a little prostitute in her," laughed one cop with and a "slight shimmy.") But, it also included the requisite sober what-does-it-mean-for-our-rights-and-liberties quote.

"Is this really what our police department should be doing?" said Norman Siegel, a prominent civil rights lawyer.
Beyond the sleazy nature of these particular techniques -- fairly obviously entrapment, although law enforcement and legal experts argue the point -- Siegel noted the "consensual nature of the crime," an argument echoed by civil libertarians who consider prostitution more often than not a victimless crime, certainly not one worth spending a lot of limited law enforcement resources on.

Besides, said Siegel, "history shows that it's very hard to deter this kind of activity."

For a bit of easy data, the Times could have reached into its own archives. Back in 1994, it had run a piece about an identical technique being exercised in Murray Hill, when Operation Losing Proposition was in its infancy and being carried out by the NYPD's "Public Morals Division" (to be renamed the Vice Enforcement Division the next year).

This article noted the way in which such stings were designed to maximize the "shame factor" and the Times seemed eager to pitch in, printing the name, age, and residence of one unfortunate man who it described as pleading and "shaking visibly" as police arrested him and searched his car amid gawking onlookers. John Miller, deputy commissioner for public information called such public humiliation "a huge deterrent."

This article too carried a critical quote from Norman Siegel (then executive director of the New York Civil Liberties Union) as well as a somewhat prophetic line about similar operations' historically dubious results: "In most cases, they only shifted the problem from one neighborhood to another." Fast-forward ten years and, indeed, business has migrated from Murray Hill to "rough-and-tumble places like Hunts Point in the Bronx." But far more significant has been the migration of prostitution operations from the street to the Internet.

Which brings us back to Craigslist. With an estimated 25 million users across 450 cities, one would be hard pressed to find a reasonably web-savvy person who hasn't heard of it. While some of us limit our bartering to couches and second-hand bed frames, it should come as no surprise that the site has been a boon for prostitutes. As a firmly established and conveniently anonymous marketplace, Craigslist offers limitless advertising space. The ads themselves are no different from the stuff on the back of the Village Voice. But there's a crucial difference; these are free.

The author of the popular blog "Confessions of a College Call Girl" offers a glowing testimonial: "To me, the most amazing inventions of the 20th century are DVR and Craigslist," she declared this spring. Originally drawn to Craigslist for its Casual Encounters section, which, like any dating service, allows people to post what they're into and await a reply (hopefully with photos and matching fetishes), "to a girl from a small town with only a limited supply of available men ... [Craigslist] was a revelation in sexual specificity."

Casual Encounters eventually led her to a slightly more illicit realm among Craigslist's subcategories: the Erotic Services section, which really, requires no explanation. "If I was doing it for fun, why couldn't I do it for money?" she figured. "I packed my bags for Erotic Services and never went back."

Call her a satisfied customer.

With "Erotic Services" getting literally thousands of posts a day, it was only a matter of time before the police would catch on. "Most of the arrests are on misdemeanor charges, with convictions resulting in fines of a few hundred dollars," reported the Times, echoing its earlier stories. "Only repeat offenders risk jail time."

So as with street arrests, sex workers and their customers are back in business in no time, and the police are back to chasing them. No matter how many arrests are made, rooting out the prostitutes on Craigslist -- let alone the internet -- is pretty clearly a needle-in-a-haystack endeavor. The boundlessness of the internet means a sort of prostitution without borders and a Sisyphusian project for those police on the morality squad.

"Authoritarian busybodies" is one prostitute's term for such officers, citing the waste of resources represented by such attention to online sex services. And while the Times describes "electronic cat-and-mouse" games between investigators and sex traders that make the stings seem effective and glamorous, in a high-tech COPS kind of way, it's hard to imagine anyone believes they will lead to a take-down of the sex trade. Or even a dent in it.

Aside from freaking out a couple of Craigslisters -- "Open letter to providers/hobbyists - Please read now!!!" -- it's hard to know what kind of effect this has had on business.

The story has elicited predictable snark from the blogosphere: "There Are Hookers on the Internet!" and "When's the last time anyone was able to score a whore on ... 42nd Street?" But no one seems to be asking why the police should continue its undercover sex sting operations online when they have proven so ineffectual on the streets.

In other cities, the decision instead has been to up the humiliation factor. Last April, the Chicago Reader reported on Mayor Richard Daley's latest big idea: a website displaying the identities of everyone arrested for soliciting sex, complete with names and photos.

"We're telling everyone who sets foot in Chicago," the mayor said last June. "If you solicit a prostitute, you will be arrested. And when you get arrested, people will know. Your spouse, children, friends, neighbors and employers will know ... I don't have to tell you how fast information travels on the internet."

He certainly doesn't. Nor does he have to tell the family members whose lives are turned into a nightmare the minute their father, son or brother goes from being a human being to sex offender in front of everyone in their community.

The result of this particular project has been, according to the Reader, "to put on display a lot of blacks and Hispanics," who make up the majority of arrests. What's more, "Chicago has no data to show that the site, which was the mayor's initiative, not the police department's, has reduced prostitution."

That familiar stench filling the room is the whiff of an old dynamic at play. Like the routine drug raids that have long been a staple of the never-ending War on Drugs, prostitution sting operations take a ham-fisted and ad hoc approach to controlling social vices that have too often proven beyond the purview of law enforcement. Historically, the effect has been to disrupt the lives of people whose lives are not terribly stable to begin with.

As the Reader puts it: "More arrests mean more prostitutes with felony records, and a felony rap sheet makes it harder for a woman to find any other kind of work." And while targeting customers online yields arrests that transcend racial and class boundaries, "to fill police wagons with johns may change the ways of those johns, but their number appears endless. To allocate officers to cover all markets would require staffing that does not exist."

"Sure a prostitution bust is exciting (but) ... It's not always worth the effort," one Chicago police sergeant told the Chicago Tribune. Besides, "there is so much prostitution," says one public defender in Chicago, that if you could arrest all of the players, "the jails would be huge. If we put everyone in there, we would all be broke."

The same could be said of the drug war, yet it remains. And yes, the jails are huge. So why keep insisting on tough-on-crime tactics that do not work?

"At the very least, undercover prostitution busts are more colorful than routine traffic stops," reasoned the Times in 2005, quoting an assistant professor of police studies at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. "It breaks the monotony, and it gives them great stories. Cops love great stories."

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View:
Legalise Prostitution
Posted by: Tokyo Tuds on Sep 12, 2007 2:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One stroke of the pen and the problem goes away... legalise prostiution. The article itself quotes the old adage "the world's oldest profession", and no free democracy in the world will eradicate it. As it is a "victimless crime", it is just on group foisting its morals on another group: mind your own business.

I love the irony too that the banner advertisement rotating on this article is for the sex trade (not necessarily work-safe site):
linked text = Filapina Dating

Holland does a great job of managing legal prostitution.

Tuds

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» Holland does such a great job Posted by: BenCaxton12
» RE: Legalise Prostitution Posted by: oregonox
first raise police salaries
Posted by: richholland on Sep 12, 2007 4:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
in thailand prostitution is ILLEGAL
but many policeofficers are partners in brothels.
because prostitution is illegal in thailand and the police is working hard, you will not expect hookers over there.

in europe no policewomen will work as a decoy prostitute;
in fact could it be possible that the ruling class in the USA has NO moral feelings at all in trying to surpress the working people?????
main items;
unsufficient minimum wages....not so good health insurance....

education system leads to people in debt.
instead of natural sexbehavour a lot of porno and prostitution.
Always the word war... war on this war on that and never victory, never peace....
normal, working, loving people want peace......

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I wonder...
Posted by: whathaway on Sep 12, 2007 4:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is the attack on Craigslist more about money than it is about sex/sexuality? All those people buy and selling stuff and not paying for the service...threatening to ebay, the pennysaver, The Times??? Law enforcement is just that, enforcing the laws that power people set down. Those laws are about maintaining the power dynamic, not about morality or justice per se. Money is power here, and there is alot of money not being made by allowing people to conduct huge amounts of commerce outside the power structure (as in for free). Just a thought....

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» RE: I wonder... Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: I wonder... Posted by: zyxwvut
Violation of the Right of Self-Ownership
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Sep 12, 2007 4:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These bullshit consensual crime laws are nothing but a dictatorial, tyrannical violation of the Right of Self-Ownership.

Self-Ownership is the source of all human rights, it means no one owns my body except me. If no one owns it but me no one can tell me what I can and can't do with it except me.

These laws and police arrests make me sick. Even though I don't believe in God I would like to think there is a special place in hell for those who would seek to force others to live how they think they should live, from those tyrannical bastards who made these consensual crime laws right down to the pigs that enforce them.

There are those who do good in this world and those who do evil, those who violate a person's Right of Self-Ownership through fines, imprisonment, and at the barrel of a gun are doing evil and do not deserve our respect, our admiration, or our charity (police fundraisers).

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Where are the feminists?
Posted by: Axiom69 on Sep 12, 2007 5:32 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am surprised that the comments so far are against these police stings. Being a man, I should not be the one pointing out the harm prostitution causes or that it's degrading to women. I hope that some of the feminists on Alternet will stand up and do just that. My problem with the prostitution on craigslist is that it's not just women. I saw a news article about a man who had kidnapped a 14 year old girl and was pimping her out. He was hooking up with the "clients" via craigslist.
You can find anything you want through the internet. That's fine but if it's illegal the police need to stop it. That's what we pay them to do. Don't lambast the cops for doing their job. If you want prostitution legal then talk to your lawmakers.

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» it's degrading to women Posted by: Nebris
» RE: it's degrading to women Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Where are the feminists? Posted by: Angel1961
» RE: Where are the feminists? Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Where are the feminists? Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Where are the feminists? Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Where are the feminists? Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Where are the feminists? Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Where are the feminists? Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Where are the feminists? Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Where are the feminists? Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Where are the feminists? Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Where are the feminists? Posted by: LeeAnnG
Republican wives
Posted by: zooeyhall on Sep 12, 2007 6:21 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many of the guys looking for prostitututes are middle class, often businessmen. They, their wives, and their families are often the picture-perfect example of Bush Republicans.

If some of these Republican wives would give their husbands blow-jobs once in a while, maybe the demand for street walkers would go away.

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» Republican Wives & Aryan Babies Posted by: mrcentrist
» RE: epublican wives Posted by: halg
EVERY woman has a little prostitute in her????
Posted by: clvngodess on Sep 12, 2007 6:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Every woman has a little prostitute in her," laughed one cop with and a "slight shimmy." WTF???

Who the hell is this cop? And as a woman who has no prostitute in her, I find this statement sexist, neanderthal and horrifically apalling.

Would this nincompoop of a pig (chauvanistic and uniformed) say this about his sister, or mother, or wife? Or his female partner?

Where does he get this predjudice, this judgement? How does he qualify this? And on what authority?

Are these the idiots, the bigots, the sexist morons we want policing our streets? This mentality is like saying a rape victim was asking for it because she happened to be wearing a skirt.

I think the problem is not Craigs List but the way this society thinks of women, and sex.

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What a waste of resources.
Posted by: Bart Thesc on Sep 12, 2007 6:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Talk to any cop and you will learn that busting hookers, on the street, on Craigslist, or using any major city's large or minor newspaper, is like shooting fish in a barrel. Surely there are more serious crimes to be solved. I agree, if there are people forcing minors out onto the street they should be hunted down and welded into cages, but if the Chicago police quote 60 arrests in a month up from 43 as progress they are kidding themselves. They could make 60 arrests tonight if they wanted to, just using the Adult Services section of the Chicago Reader.

Maybe we should suggest to our police officials that we would prefer they get back to real police work.

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When urgent money is needed, sometimes prostitution is the best option
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Sep 12, 2007 7:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When urgent money is needed, sometimes prostitution is the best option for someone with kids to feed and house.
Hmmmm. A 6.00 per hour job at Walmart or a 50.00 per hour blow job? Or a 100.00 per hour roll in the hay?
Sometimes a person just doesn't have better choices.
LEGALIZE PROSTITUTION.

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» Maya, you are a hypocrite Posted by: dover23
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
Every women has the right NOT to be prostituted
Posted by: Maya on Sep 12, 2007 7:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's strange the way young women, particularly western women, so readily accept self-sexualisation and comidification as empowering or liberating. Maybe it feels empowering and powerful becasue they feel for certain that they are the focus of male attention, male gaze and therefore, maybe, men's love.
But the truth about prostituted women and girls around the world is that the majority are not going to college or even know how to read or write. They call it "paid rape." Over 70 percent suffer from PTSD, meaning they suffer the same way a prisoner of war suffers. Over 80 percent were hit, slapped, cut, punched and raped by the men. And the majority were sexually abused and raped as children. This most cetainly is a moral issue, for how as humans, who call ourselves civilized and enlightened, can we allow such cruelty, such violence to be inflicted on a part of our population. Then we go even further and tell them that this is their work, their sexualtiy, better yet, their liberation.

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Simple liberty
Posted by: lamar on Sep 12, 2007 7:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's pretty sad that the government tells a woman what she can and can't do with her body. I can understand the idea that the gov't wants to clean up the streets, but craigslist takes it off the streets. If the gov't would recognize simple liberties, provided recourse for wrongs committed, there wouldn't need to be pimps either.

This whole underground economy wouldn't exist if the government respected simple liberty.

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old joke with a little truth
Posted by: cr_commenter on Sep 12, 2007 7:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A man says to a woman, "Would you sleep with me for a billion dollars?" (It used to be a million, but you know, inflation...)
And the woman says, "Well... I'd have to think about that..." and the man says, "Well, would you sleep with me for a dollar?" and the woman says, "What kind of person do you think I am?" and the man says, "I think we've already established that. Now we're haggling on the price."

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Everyone Should Have the Right to Sell What's Theirs
Posted by: Libertine on Sep 12, 2007 8:27 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Prostitution has been around for thousands of years. And it will be around for as long as humans occupy the planet. Sex is a basic human drive, and those who aren't getting sex, who are away from their regular sex partners, who aren't getting the type of sex, the frequency of sex, and the variety of sex they want, will go about meeting this need in any way they can. If a person can't get it for free or can't/won't take the time to engage in the mating ritual to acquire a willing free partner, they will seek out a prostitute.

Prostitution meets a need and provides a service. And as long as this is true, it will exist.

It's time society accepted that reality and made provision for legal prostitution. The benefits of legalizing prostitution are many. The government would tax it, thus providing a new source of revenue. The government would also regulate it; mandating that all sex workers get regular screening for STDs, along with other regulations designed to protect the health and safety of prostitutes and clients. With prostitution aboveboard and out in the open, it would be easier to protect sex workers from abuse, clients from scamming, and to ensure that those engaging in sex work are doing it entirely of their own free will.

Some commenters above have made the point that prostitution exploits women. Well, no, it does not inherently exploit women. It presently being illegal and clandestine in most parts of the world is what allows exploitation and abuses to occur. And we have to remember that not all prostitutes are women.

Laws against prostitution are essentially Nanny laws, based upon the notion that sex should only occur in the confines of a legal marriage or committed relationship. That is a view that should remain a personal opinion and not be mandated as law. Consenting adults should be free to get sex however they wish and are able to obtain it.

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» RE: You Are Arguing from Emotion, Not Reason Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
Imagine a different economy where we were "free of want"
Posted by: metamind on Sep 12, 2007 8:33 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Imagine if we had an economy which focused first on meeting the needs of the people so that nobody would go without food, shelter, clothing, education, health care and transportation. Then, once everyone has these things we could play our "money game" to get wealthy.

It would have an entirely different dynamic. People wouldn't be going into prostitution out of necessity. If they did it then it would truly be a choice.

Let's remember that there are "invisible costs" to prostitution. The psychic harm done by submitting one's body to the desires of another for the sake of monetary gain is immense. It's like eating arsenic. Eventually you have so much accumulated in your soul ( mind ) that you cannot love without expectation of a return, you cannot trust anyone and you cannot respect yourselves or others.
You have put your faith into money rather than virtue.


Money destroys virtue by its nature. If we spent more time teaching virtue and less time punishing vice we would have a better society. We'd also have a different economy.

Steve Moyer
http://stevemoyer.us

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Even Conservatives Admit Prostitution is Victimless
Posted by: vasumurti on Sep 12, 2007 9:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In 1995, columnist Robert Craig Paul of the Washington Times wrote:

"A Florida woman calling herself Jane Roe II has challenged the constitutionality of Florida's law against prostitution. She states her case clearly and logically: If a woman's right to control the use of her reproductive organs permits her to enter into a cash transaction with an abortionist, then how can this fundamental right of privacy not apply to other transactions involving her use of her body?

"Some might reply that prostitution is illegal. But so was abortion until the court declared it a constitutional right. Others might say prostitution is immoral. But this argument also goes nowhere.

"In his book, Crime and Punishment in American History, Lawrence Friedman wrote that abortion has been against the law and restricted with greater intensity for more of our history than prostitution, reflecting social norms that abortion, viewed as infanticide, is more immoral than prostitution.

"...The unborn is not a consenting party to the transaction. In contrast, prostitution is entirely an act between consenting parties that does not affect the bodily integrity, identity and destiny of a third party.

"Under the privacy ruling of Roe v. Wade, prostitution is logically within the woman's rights to control the use of her own reproductive organs. This privacy right can only expand. It is legal nonsense that privacy conveys the right to abort, but not the right to ingest drugs or engage in sodomy...

"Beyond abortion, prostitution and drugs will become rights... It will be interesting to watch the court sort out on the basis of Roe v. Wade why it is legal for a woman to contract for abortion but not prostitution."

My own take on all this, as a pro-life Democrat, is that while I'm sympathetic to the argument of some feminists that prostitution can be degrading or exploitative of women, it can also be victimless, as it does not involve a third party.

Someone once argued that using attractive women in magazines, billboards, TV commercials, etc. (what to speak of women stripping, working in topless bars, or posing nude!) is a subtle form of prostitution--women using their bodies for income.

Where do we draw the line? Child pornography/prostitution is demonic, and should be outlawed. Minors must be protected. But while adult pornography/prostitution can sometimes be sexist, it is equally sexist to suggest women aren't capable of making choices as free moral agents, and must be protected from such exploitation.

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oldest profession
Posted by: gonzodex on Sep 12, 2007 9:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, prostitution can be (but is not always) degrading to women. Working in a factory under certain conditions can be degrading to anybody. Everybody can be degraded in one way or another - it's not limited to prostitution.

What is a consensual private activity between adults becomes a crime simply when you pay for it.

I love George Carlin's very Libertarian take on prostitution:

"Fucking's legal. Selling's legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal?"

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LARRY CRAIG'S LIST
Posted by: Roverton on Sep 12, 2007 9:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That one has Republican backing, doesn't it?

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Get real
Posted by: Axiom69 on Sep 12, 2007 9:39 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I normally avoid my personal feelings on a subject and try to comment on the facts of the article only. Like I tried to do earlier. I wasn't going to add to this article because I wanted to avoid all the negative comments but today I refuse to be a coward. The ignorance I see here needs to be addressed so here it is.
Yes, I know there are male prostitutes as well but we can deal with that subject another time.

If you think prostitution is like the movie Pretty Woman you need to get a reality check. I'm here to give it to you.
How many good looking rich and powerful men need to pay for sex? Not many unless they are the ones that get off on the degradation and power they feel over the women they pay to service them. How many women on here would like to have some overweight, smelly, hairy, sweaty and naked pig on top of you? What would that do for your self esteem? How about when he offers you an extra $5 to swallow? Would you want to do the local crack head for $10? What if he brushes his one tooth first?
Don't turn up your nose and say you would not service "those types" because these are your regular clients. You may get a buisness man from out of town who wants to do degrading things to you that his wife won't let him do but for the most part the local nasties are your best customers. How many would you have to have sex with in order to pay the rent, electric, phone, cell, car payment, insurance, gas and grocery bill? Oh yeah and the college tuition so you can become a lawyer? Hundreds a month. I hope you have health insurance.
The reality is most women are forced into prostitution by their drug dealers. The dealer will let them get into debt with them and then demand payment when they know they can't pay. Then the dealer offers to let them "work it off". He then sells her to his buddy the pimp. Assault, rape and degradaton become the norm. This IS prostitution. Not the Hollywood romantisized version.
Don't tell me it's a womans choice to become a prostitute. It's an act of desperation born out of hopelessness. It destroys the self esteem and self worth and eats away at the very core of their being. Those that don't see it that way can go down to your local red light district and see for yourself. Tell me how many women you see seem to be enjoying themselves.

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» RE: Get real Posted by: Libertine
» RE: Get real Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Now you are just being stupid Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: You just don't get it Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: You just don't get it Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: You just don't get it Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: You just don't get it Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: What's worse Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Get real Posted by: suprmark
Real Men Don't Pay for Sex
Posted by: Maya on Sep 12, 2007 9:54 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Real Men don't buy bodies

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» RE: eal Men Don't Pay for Sex Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: eal Men Don't Pay for Sex Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: eal Men Don't Pay for Sex Posted by: Iconoclast421
» Sexual ignorance Posted by: ReallyBearish
» ALL men pay. ALL men are Johns Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: ALL men pay. ALL men are Johns Posted by: MartianBachelor
I think we are confusing the issue a bit
Posted by: halg on Sep 12, 2007 10:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a difference between regulated, safe, legalized prostitution and prostitution that is merely not illegal. Governments and societies that "look the other way" are not doing anything to correct the problems of prostitution. Truly regulated prostitution with government oversight is very safe and does not suffer the sorts of injustices that some have mentioned here.

Let's not conflate this issue by confusing these 2 genres of prostitutional legality (if I may coin a phrase here. Everyone else on the Internet makes up new words, so why can't I?)

I completely agree that the sort of prostitution we hear about in countries where "sex tourism" is popular (Thailand comes to mind) is a horrible abuse of children and women and does nothing to improve the lives of those who engage in the trade. Those countries are to be condemned for what they are permitting to go on. But you cannot compare that to prostitution in countries like New Zealand. I won't speak for Holland because it sounds like a bit of a mixed bag. But most western countries where it has been legalized has made the profession safe and (somewhat) respectable, as well as providing a means of making a decent living for the women who ply the trade.

Keep in mind that in places like Thailand, women and children are forced into prostitution either by gangs or economics. Where it has been legalized, however, women are free to enter or leave the profession on their own accord, they are protected by laws, and it is a violation of human rights to use children or force any person into prostitution.

So, again, let's be careful to make this very large distinction as we discuss this, OK?

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If hookers, johns and potheads get arrested
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Sep 12, 2007 10:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Other crimes won't be investigated. It's simple economics. And if the economy tanks, the problem only gets worse. If you want murderers, robbers and con artists off the streets, you have to make choices. As the state of Texas demonstrated, you can't throw everyone you want in prison without undermining the system.

I might add that the morals squads are usually the most corrupt units in any big city police department.

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Takes issue with neologisms
Posted by: paulmuniz on Sep 12, 2007 11:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sorry, but "convinced their child will be the next to be sexually predatored"? "Sisyphusian"?

You might consciously read more broadly and refer to a good dictionary more often instead of assuming that you can intuitively divine congates which are actually in use in the modern English langauge. Webster's New International Dictionary (1993 ed.) discloses the following:

"Predator" is not a verb. It derives from the Latin praedatus, from praedari, "to plunder, prey upon" (p. 1785, col. 3) "Prey" is from praedari (p. 1798, cols. 2-3). Thus, "convinced their child will be the next to be sexually preyed upon."

"Sisyphean" is the adjective derived from "Sisyphus" (p. 2128, col. 2).

If you can document that either of the forms that you have used has been used by another writer, I'll apologize to you and complain to them.

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» RE: Takes issue with neologisms Posted by: paulmuniz
Maybe if Sen Craig had posted an ad on CL, he might not have gotten caught.
Posted by: stina723 on Sep 12, 2007 11:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Working at Wal-Mart or Starbucks for chump change in their stupid uniform is degrading.
At least w/ prostitution (offering a service), you have control over where, who, what, when and how much.
Prostitution fills a need in societies, that's why it is the oldest profession. Prostitution allows an outlet for men to express their sexual desires (driven by testosterone) that are not being met. Testosterone is also the hormone responsible for aggressiveness. Repressed sexual desires might result in increased aggression?
Is it safe to conclude that Bush and Dick (haha) in the White House aren't gettin' any?

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» Bush and Dick Posted by: Iconoclast421
pulled my ad off Craigslist
Posted by: DaBear on Sep 12, 2007 11:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Damn, now how'm I gonna pay my subprime with Countrywide?!

[for the feds and pigs reading this: this is sarcasm, dipshits]

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waste of tax money
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Sep 12, 2007 12:12 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All of this is just a waste of money. They like to hide behind child solicitation and crap like that, but it is really just a lame excuse. Child solicitation would actually decrease if prostitution were legal because very few men would even contemplate paying hundreds to be with an underage girl when they could just go down to the local hoochie mart and pick up a perfectly fine and young-enough 19 year old for the market rate! The system we have now, like many of our bass ackward systems, actually produces more criminals than it eliminates.

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What else are they going to do until it's time to round up enemies of the state for the camps?
Posted by: xbj on Sep 12, 2007 12:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
C'mon, got to keep of some things to keep 'em busy until martial law is declared and they have to start doing real work "protecting America" by rounding up "enemies of the state" for the already Haliburton-built "detention" camps.

Nothing fosters outright vicious Nazi barbarism like begnning with a bit of harmless prurient keyhole peeping into the private lives of citizens that are obviously mere animals and "not like us" because their morals are so far beneath us as to hire their sex.

Good training for basically decent cops "we" have to armtwist into actual Nazism, unlike military recruits who have it screamed and abused into them. Later we'll move onto important threats, like criticizing our Dear Leader, or marching against wars against our "enemies", or people who write, and finally, those who merely read on the "internets"...

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please read Bob Hebert's most recent columns
Posted by: goatini on Sep 12, 2007 1:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
on what prostitution really means. amazing the number of "pros-positive" posters here whom, i assume, would be just fine about their daughters entering this soul-killing world of exploitation and fear:

http://tinyurl.com/24fw4l
http://tinyurl.com/yr42m6

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Why does Maya hate liberty?
Posted by: lamar on Sep 12, 2007 2:13 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And the hypocrisy on the left expands.....

Women's rights, it's her body not yours.......except when it comes to prostitution, then its all about degradation, morals, racism, violence, and all the other words the left trots out when it wants to curtail your liberty.

Liberty for women, period. No strings or judgments attached.

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The progressive Utopia of Hookers and drugs
Posted by: OhioPatriot on Sep 12, 2007 3:02 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, I believe I am beginning to understand the free thinkers at last.
And how naive am I. that when forced to drive through that certain part of town where the wonderfull free market of prostitution is rampant, Instead of embracing the trade. I stop and wash my car before placing it in my garage lest the chlamydia crawling on my fender should infest my family.
Yes, the far left is progressing, into what I have no idea.

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» RE: Your Sarcasm Is A Cheap Frame Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: Your Sarcasm Is A Cheap Frame Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: Ohio the dumb Posted by: drblack
Thoughts from a callgirl
Posted by: Cecilia on Sep 12, 2007 6:07 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't see why prostitutes are always viewed as down-and-out people at the lower end of the spectrum with no other choice. I have been escorting for 3 years in NYC, I used to have a website but because of legalities I now only accept referrals from clients and industry friends. I am a financial analyst by day and certainly make enough to support myself but enjoy the extra money. I see about 3 people a week from which I charge $1500 for 2 hours, usually less than half an hour is spent on physical activities. While I obviously am not attracted to all of my clients they are all clean cut, have good hygiene, and nice manners. The fat, sweaty, truckdriving types do not seek my services and if they did I would turn them away (yes, really). Occasionally I am offered more money to engage in an act I am not comfortable with in which case I simply say no. Most of the men I see have very busy schedules and enjoy the "thrill" of an illicit meeting; they are not people incapable of relationships with "normal" girls. I was never forced into the business and I am not giving my money to anyone else. I do not suffer from low self esteem nor do I see why prostitution would lead to distrusting men or being unable to maintain healthy relationships. A prostitute might be distrustful of men because she has been scammed, abused, humiliated, or for any other number of reasons but not simply because she is a prostitute. Relationships are often built on exchanges; women will date a guy that upgrades her lifestyle or buys her expensive gifts. Why should an exchange of cash be considered unacceptable whereas other gifts and favors are not?

This line of work is not for everyone and many feel they have no choice. But there are quite a few of us, especially in major cities, who have lots of choices and see this as a comfortable way to make some extra money without working 16 hours a day as many of my office colleagues do.

I can understand why a city would like to get rampant prostitution off of the streets but internet communications can't bother anyone who isn't looking for it. If resources should be spent on stopping prostituion it should be focused on unraveling the trafficking cases. Here we have thousands of women being forced into prostitution and slave labour; they are held captive without freedom and indefinitely abused. Saving these women should be a top priority and is certainly a lot more crucial than stopping consenting adults from engaging in acts, sexual or otherwise, that they mutually agree on. In other words start focusing on the real victims.

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» RE: Thoughts from a callgirl Posted by: Aureantes
» RE: Thoughts from a callgirl Posted by: BobbieT
Yes, I know, this is not at the point of the matter, but...
Posted by: situationgirl on Sep 12, 2007 7:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Sexually predatored"?!

-Sincerely,

A Fan of Grammar

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Keep the government out
Posted by: vickymiss2001 on Sep 13, 2007 7:10 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
of the bedroom and sex lives of adults.

As well why is prostitution legal when it is porn and video taped and distributed but woman aren't allowed to have sex for money with out making it into porn.

The American legal system needs to make sense and leave people alone.

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Wife who put husband in dog house soon find him in cat-house!
Posted by: Landbaron on Sep 13, 2007 10:27 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is why a lot of people are against prostitution, it threatens marriage. And society encourages marriage. Husband who gets caught in cat-house will lose everything in divorce court!

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Control people...
Posted by: Knobby on Sep 13, 2007 2:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Control... thats what it is all about, when are you all going to realize that...
The powers that be ( World Corporate elites, facist government, right wing religious groups, etc) want you and yours.. They want to control you, own you, bury you

A unforced woman or man who wants to give their body to someone else to play with for money or food or toilet paper,etc. has every unalienable right to do so.

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The greatest thing about prostitution is:
Posted by: vomeggido on Sep 15, 2007 7:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When you wake up in the morning- you are already in the office!

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Prostitution
Posted by: vomeggido on Sep 15, 2007 7:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This profession seems to have a branch that our administration of terrorists can grab onto. Its funny how many republicans have been busted with prostitutes- then they get all indignant- admit their their failings and weaknesses- then strike out against the hookers they purchased in the first place!

Typical republican fascist response.

If there were no prostitutes- how in the hell would a dog faced baboon like Cheney or Jeb Bush get laid?

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I tried to find a mate for my dog on Craig's List--it was removed.
Posted by: dingo on Sep 16, 2007 8:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, of course, unending idiocy from all those vice cops protecting us from our own urges.

However, I find it amusing that I cannot look for a match for my Australian red cattle dog on Craigslist--my very discrete ad was almost instantly removed--but I can troll for prostitutes and unlimited kinky encounters for myself and/or soccer teammates without interference...unless the cops kick down the doors of course.

I was not trying to sell my dog's services or sell pups or any of that. He's a wonderful red heeler and I thought I could find him a match somewhere...

But I was busted--and Dingo remains dateless and lonely! A dog dad wannabe...

I should have solicited sex with someone's dog for myself...I guess that would have cleared the Craigslist cyber cops if not the Salt Lake City vice cops...or SPCA....

If there's a lonely lady cattle dog out there looking for a mate...be sure to write Dingo....he's got his own email.

dingopanga@yahoo.com

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Catch them criminals
Posted by: raywigton on Sep 19, 2007 9:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Legalizing prostitution would be like changing the FISA law after Bush violated it. It would be like allowing people who identify an undercover CIA operative to get away with their act of treason. No! it just wouldn't be fair to all the crooked politicians to legalize prostitution and let these skanky women get away with it.

On the other side, if cops couldn't her ass prostitutes how would they ever be able to catch any criminals? I mean if you can't spot a prostitute when driving down the road, she isn't working hard enough. Even a cop knows one when they see one. The only reason that all prostitutes aren't in jail is because they pay off the pigs or give them a bj on the side. If you've ever been around where a real crime was committed, you know that the cops can't do anything more than fill out a report to be included in the crime statistics. Why does Jay Leno love stupid criminals, - cause they are the only one's a cop can catch.

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About Rights on Craiglist:
Posted by: downwithpatriotism on Sep 20, 2007 10:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I recently visited Craiglist and got interested in Politics- Middle Eastern. I am very polite and honest but I discovered that everyone on this board is Israeli and they promote Israel's agenda. Whenever you disagree with anyone, they make all of your posts disappear. They refer you to the contract you signed. Don't agree with an arab point of view or a palestinian. Otherwise, the shock troops come out. Don't say you like Jimmy Carter. they want to kill you.

In addition, there are truly demented posters here who visit anonomously and behave like real baboons claiming they will kill you, knock you over the head with a hammer, and shoot your brains out. These people still post yet, those that disagree are gone. They are worse than any Kahane group, terrorist group, or fascist group and they seem bent on killing 6 million gentiles for any slight.

I took the opportunity to go over the board only to find many sexually oriented and lonely heart sites open for discussion. One person, whose post was immediately removed, said he was looking for a stud for his dingo. The captivating regulations seem to be very much akin to Middle East policies...anything Israel does is ok. Anything you do is not. If that is the fault line in Craig'slist, it seems that whatever an Israeli thinks or does is ok but in order for you to pass the censors, you have to abide by their rules not by common sense. What a crazy board. Anything goes but the rule of law.

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