Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick testified to the House Oversight and Reform Committee on Wednesday, where he was asked about some of his in-person encounters with trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. According to one Democratic lawmaker, Lutnick tried to change what he had previously said, "spinning himself in circles."
Speaking to CNN after the hearing, Rep. Suhas Subramanyam (D-Va.) explained that he tried to clarify Lutnick's personal encounters with Epstein, given that Lutnick had been caught in several lies.
First, Lutnick said he'd never met with Epstein in person. He then changed the story to say he got a tour of Epstein's Manhattan mansion. A third time, Lutnick changed his story again, saying he and his family stopped off at Epstein's private island while sailing.
Subramanyam said that the way Lutnick tried to explain the discrepancies was by saying that "I wasn't in the same room ashim. But being in the same roomwith someone, even if there areother people in there, is thesame thing. And so he was tryingto redefine the word 'I' atdifferent points. It was a veryconfusing interview andcertainly disqualifying in mymind."
CNN host Boris Sanchez seemed confused and asked the lawmaker to clarify how Lutnick could try to change the definition of "I."
"He said that, 'Yes, I saw him two more times, but I was never in the same room with him,'" repeated Subramanyam. "I, Howard Lutnick, didn't put myself in the situation to be in the same room with him, which was really confusing, right? Because he was in the same room with him."
"I think he was dishonest with us," continued Subramanyam. "The reality is, we gave him a chance to say, okay, you know, I misspoke before, or I lied before. I was, you know, exaggerating because I was on a podcast. But he didn't say that."
Instead, Subramanyam said that Lutnick "doubled down on saying that he never saw Jeffrey Epstein ever again. But then he admitted he saw him two more times, and he even went to the island. He doesn't remember why he went to the island."
The lawmaker said that if they hadn't found emails with photos of Lutnick on the island, "I don't thinkhe would have ever told us thathe went to the island."
In another line of questioning, the lawmakers asked Lutnick about his previous claims that Epstein was the “greatest blackmailer ever." Lutnick later said in the interview that he had no personal knowledge of blackmail examples, but it was his assumption.
The Justice Department previously said in a memo that there was "no credible evidence" that Epstein ever blackmailed any prominent individuals.
"We asked Lutnick about this, why he would say that, and he says he was simply on a podcast speculating. He called everything else in that podcast speculation. And so we asked him, what was the speculation based on? And he said, Oh, just based on things I'd heard," said the lawmaker.
The committee Democrats then asked Lutnick whether he still believes that Epstein was blackmailing other people.
"He said, no, I don't think that anymore. And we said, why? 'It's because the administration says it's not blackmail anymore,'" Subramanyam recalled Lutnick saying.
"So, he's clearly getting talking points from the administration on what to be saying at this point. He's he was very well coached, I will say," Subramanyam closed. "But then, when we kept pressing him, that's when he got nervous. He got evasive. And he started, you know, trying to redefine the word 'I.' And so it was a very, very confusing interview and dishonest in my mind."
"I now understand why Republicans didn't want this taped, because if the president himself had seen this, he would want Howard Lutnick out. He was absolutely — he looked awful. I mean, he just kept spinning himself in circles," the Democrat said.