These 5 bombshell revelations from Pence’s special counsel interviews reveal 'he’s no hero'

28 November 2023

Earlier this year, former Vice President Mike Pence met with investigators on special counsel Jack Smith's team to answer questions about former President Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. Smith, in a criminal indictment, alleges that Trump violated federal laws when he tried to remain in the White House despite knowing that he lost the election to now-President Joe Biden.

In a bombshell report published on November 28, ABC News reporters Katherine Faulders, Mike Levine and Alexander Mallin describe Pence's interactions with Smith's team.

The reporters explain, "Pence is the highest-ranking current or former government official known to have spoken with the special counsel team investigating efforts to overturn the 2020 election. What he allegedly told investigators, described exclusively to ABC News, sheds further light on the evidence Smith's team has amassed as it prosecutes Trump for allegedly trying to unlawfully 'remain in power' and 'erode public faith' in democratic institutions."

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Here are five revelations in ABC News' report.

1. Pence considered skipping the January 6 electoral count

On January 6, 2021, Pence — in his capacity as then-vice president — certified the 2020 Electoral College results during a joint session of Congress. But according to ABC News' report, Pence "momentarily decided that he would skip the proceedings altogether, writing in the note that there were 'too many questions' and it would otherwise be 'too hurtful to my friend.' But he ultimately concluded he had a duty to show up."

When ABC News' Jonathan Karl tweeted the report, he highlighted the fact that Pence considered skipping January 6. Historian John Laub, in response, tweeted, "I cannot even count how many times Conservative Republican men lectured me on honor, dedication and the Constitution in my life. As I always knew, it was a lie by cowards seeking obedience from other people. I will never listen to anyone lecture me on so-called conservative principles. Actions speak louder than words."

Never Trump conservative Bill Kristol, on X (formerly Twitter), pointed out the role that Pence's son, a Marine, had on his decision to go ahead and show up on January 6, 2021.

"Sitting across the table from his son, a Marine, his son said to him, 'Dad, you took the same oath I took — an oath to support and defend the Constitution.' That's when Pence decided he would be at the Capitol on Jan. 6 after all..." Kristol wrote. "Marines [for the win.]"

2. Trump ignored 'credible and experienced attorneys' after the election

According to Faulders, Levine and Mallin, "credible and experienced attorneys inside the White House" urged Trump to accept the election results — and Pence "grew concerned" when Trump "began ignoring" their "advice" and instead, was "relying on outside attorneys like Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell, who pushed notions of widespread election fraud."

Washington Post columnist Greg Sargent, in response to ABC News' report, tweeted, "If these details about Mike Pence's conversations with Trump in the days before 1/6 are correct, Pence has basically confirmed to Jack Smith's investigators that Trump knowingly pressured him to break the law on his behalf."

3. Pence believed that election deniers 'did a great disservice to the country'

Faulders, Levine and Mallin report that Pence, talking to Smith's office, was highly critical of the election deniers who Trump turned to for legal advice after the election — including Giuliani and Powell, both of whom are co-defendants in a separate 2020 election-related case: Fulton County, Georgia District Attorney Fani Willis' prosecution. Pence told Smith's team that they "did a great disservice to the president and a great disservice to the country," and Trump "knew what I thought of those attorneys."

However, attorney Robyn J. Leader (who was a Joe Biden intern when he was in the U.S. Senate) was very critical of Pence, posting, "These statements prove Pence wanted to overturn the election and would have if he could. He felt bad that he couldn't deliver for Trump. He's no hero."

4. Pence and Trump argued over rejecting electoral votes

In the days leading up to January 6, 2021, ABC News reports, Trump pressured Pence to reject electoral votes that were in Biden's favor. But Pence told Trump that rejecting them would violate the U.S. Constitution.

Pence, according to ABC News' report, allegedly said to Smith's team, "I told him I thought there was no idea more un-American than the idea that any one person could decide what electoral votes to count. I made it very plain to him that it was inconsistent with our history and tradition."

Condé Nast's legal affairs editor Luke Zaleski responded to ABC News' report on X and said of Trump and his allies, "They were gonna just refuse to leave."

5. Pence said Trump 'acted recklessly' when the Capitol was under attack

Pence, according to ABC News, told Smith's office he will "never believe" that Trump meant for January 6, 2021 to become violent. In that sense, Pence defended Trump when meeting with Smith's prosecutors. But Pence also told Smith's team that Trump's words that day "didn't help," and he said that Trump "acted recklessly" when the U.S. Capitol Building was being violently attacked by Trump supporters.

Read ABC News' full report at this link.

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