Conway: Meadows’ 'very strange quietness' could signal cooperation with special counsel

19 July 2023

During a dual appearance on Wednesday evening's edition of Anderson Cooper 360, former White House Ethics Czar Norm Eisen and lawyer George Conway weighed in on the target letter that ex-President Donald Trump received this week from United States Justice Department special counsel Jack Smith.

"I'm joined now by CNN legal analyst Norm Eisen, who served as special counsel of the House Democrats during the former president's first impeachment, and George Conway, conservative attorney who's a contributing columnist to The Washington Post," host Andeson Cooper began shortly after news broke that Smith's January 6th grand jury will convene on Thursday.

"George, I wanna start with the CNN reporting that the Trump team is looking for evidence or witnesses that they're unaware of who may have been cooperating or that the special counsel may have, because the potential charges listed in the target letter suggest to them a bigger case against Trump than they were expecting. Does that surprise you?" Cooper asked.

Conway responded:

Well, it doesn't surprise me that there would be a big case brought against Donald Trump. I think that's the way this whole investigation has been pointed in. That's the direction that it's been pointed at for a very long time. And I think his conduct is critical and in any number of ways with regard to the incitement of the insurrection. But more importantly, um, I think they're gonna focus on the electors, the, the attempt to influence electors and the attempt to influence Mike Pence. So I don't think that it's surprising that there is such a big case. They may be caught off guard in terms of the timing. They may have thought, oh, well, [Fulton County, Georgia District Attorney] Fanni Willis, they've expected her to go first for a long time, and they didn't expect Mr. Smith to go so quickly, particularly after the work he's done in the other, the Mar-a-Lago documents investigation. But apparently, he's ready to go. It certainly sounds that way or he wouldn't have gotten the letter.

Next, Cooper recalled to Eisen that he "co-wrote a memo assessing potential federal charges that the special counsel could bring against the former president," and inquired, "How does, how did your assessment match up with the three statutes that the target letter cites that Trump could potentially be charged with — deprivation of rights, conspiracy to commit an offense against or defraud the United States, and tampering with a witness?"

Eisen:

Anderson, it lines up pretty tightly. You have the fake electoral certificate. That's the conspiracy against the United States because it's a fraud when one candidate wins the presidency and the other candidate tries to stay in power and prevent that person from taking office. Then you have what's referred to in the letter as threatening a witness, but I think that is a reference to, 18 USC 1512. That's the official caption, but subsection C of that is interfering with an official proceeding. I think that's what's being targeted there, and we wrote about that in our memo. And that, of course, is 'Act Two,' if you will, when Donald Trump took those fake electoral certificates and tried to use them in early January to pressure Mike Pence not to do his duty. And then finally, you have a conspiracy to affect civil rights or privileges. That's what we talked about as 'Act Three.' We considered that that's the insurrection — that's the violence when all else failed. We looked at that through the lens of the Insurrection Act. But section 2.41 or 2.42 of 18 USC is also a good fit, Anderson, because when Donald Trump unleashed the violence against Mike Pence, against Congress, he was interfering with their rights and privileges to do their job on January 6th. And in a sense, he was interfering with the right of every American cause he was trying to stop the recognition of the rightful president. So it's not really a surprise the direction that Jack Smith is going.

Turning back to Conway, Cooper continued:

There had been someone who talked thought there might be an insurrection charge. I spoke to [CNN senior legal analyst Elie] Honig on the program last night who said he didn't think the special counsel needed the drama of an insurrection charge, that it was a bridge perhaps too far for Jack Smith's case, and he doesn't need to prove that Trump was trying to overthrow the government in the United States. Do you agree with that?

Conway:

Yeah. Well, I do think it's not necessary to bring an insurrection case as such, but I think the statutes that Norm in his terrific volume that he and his colleagues prepared on the various statutory possibilities here is absolutely right. You can defraud the United States by simply submitting false information and false certificates. And you can also obstruct the congressional proceeding through violence or by fraud. And I think they're just — I think that it's important to take a step back here and just remember there are just dozens and dozens of possible state and federal crimes at issue here. When you take — in the private sector or in the public sector — if you engage in lying or violence, but particularly here, the lying, and encourage people to sign false documents and to make false representations and you know that they're false, there are usually any number of statutes that can be used.

Cooper:

Norm, how soon do you think a possible indictment against the former president could come?

Eisen:

Well, Anderson, it could be as soon as this week. The grand jury, of course, will have to vote on the charges. They'll be under seal initially. If the special counsel follows his prior procedures of giving every courtesy to a former president of the United States, he'll probably give the defendant notice and then go to court to unseal the indictment. Could be this week, could be next week. Donald Trump may, as he's done before, rush to put his own spin on it before the indictment is unsealed before Smith can speak. We know that the former president and his lawyers try to take any advantage.

Cooper then pointed out to Conway:

George, CNN's reporting also that the Trump team has not identified anyone else who received a target letter according to sources. I'm wondering what you read into that. I mean, does it mean other Trump associates aren't being charged, or do you think there are other targets who just haven't been revealed yet? It also raises questions about, is there somebody who's cooperating? I mean, is a Mark Meadows, who's sort of disappeared from the scene, is he perhaps cooperating?

Conway:

Yeah, I think it's very, very difficult to read that. I think we don't know whether or not target letters went out to people and they're just keeping their mouths shut. We don't know whether or not it could be that some people could get charged and there may not be a target letter. There are circumstances where prosecutors do that. I defer to the former federal prosecutors you talked to about that. And I also think that the last possibility to me has always been the most intriguing, which is, are there people who are cooperating? I mean, you saw, we saw in the documents case that there's basically only one person who didn't end up cooperating in some way, which was, that was Waltine Nauta. And we've seen some very strange quietness from, for example, Mark Meadows. I mean, I just have the feeling something's going on there. I mean, he's someone who ought to be every bit as exposed as Donald Trump, yet he's been so quiet and they're just — just seems like there's something up with him.

Watch below via Jeff Storobinsky or at this link.

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