We speak with Ruth Ben-Ghiat, an expert on fascism and authoritarianism, who argues that Trump’s use of the hallmarks of “fascism and violence,” including dehumanizing rhetoric, profane and crude discriminatory language and threats to the “enemy within,” echoes the rise of midcentury fascist rulers like Francisco Franco and Adolf Hitler.
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AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, “War, Peace and the Presidency.” I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González.
Vice President Kamala Harris makes her closing arguments to voters tonight at the Ellipse near the White House, where Donald Trump gave his speech on January 6, 2021, just before his supporters rioted at the Capitol. Trump made his closing arguments Sunday at Madison Square Garden. As he did so, local democratic socialists protested nearby at Bryant Park.
For more on Trump’s closing arguments and the rise of the authoritarian right, we’re joined by Ruth Ben-Ghiat, expert on fascism and authoritarianism. She’s the author of Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present and a professor of history and Italian studies at New York University. She also publishes the newsletterLucid on threats to democracy.
Professor, welcome back to Democracy Now! In the lead-up to this final week of the election, if you can talk about the comments of President Trump, everything from arresting his enemies to the enemy within, and what this echoes for you?
RUTH BEN-GHIAT: Yeah. So, you know, fascism started almost a hundred years ago in both Italy and Germany with a core of combatants from World War I who brought the war home and turned their wrath and their force and their violence on liberals, on leftists, on progressive priests, on anybody who did not — was not in their leader cults. And so, when Donald Trump talks about America being an occupied country that he’s going to liberate, this is the language also of Francisco Franco. This is the language of fascism and violence.
And, you know, when we think about all the dehumanizing rhetoric and the explicit references to Hitler’s Germany, you know, Trump doesn’t want people comparing him to Hitler, even sued CNN for $475 million, claiming they were comparing him to Hitler, but he himself has — his campaign has explicitly made these parallels, even releasing a campaign ad that talked about him creating a, quote, “unified reich” and, of course, calling people “vermin.”
And I want to say something about the use of profanity and the crudeness of all of these remarks at the Madison Square Garden rally, which of course was the site of the American Nazi rally, because we think about authoritarianism as imposing controls on people and silencing people, and it certainly does that. But it also is designed, from fascism forward, to make people become their worst selves, to give them permission to be as violent and unrestrained as possible. And so, deregulation, just as, you know, Project 2025 wants to deregulate environmental protections and food safety things, following what happened during the Trump presidency, there’s also a deregulation of inhibitions, of morals, and so that you will be not — less bothered when the violence starts. You will turn the other cheek, or you will participate in it. And this kind of profanity, you know, at women, the misogyny, anti-Black statements, calling Latinos garbage, it’s not only a tradition of dehumanization that starts with fascism and goes through authoritarian movements up to our day, it’s also designed to make people feel, the foot soldiers of MAGA, that there are no restraints, there are no controls, and everything will be accepted as long as it is in the service of targeting the enemy within.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to go to two clips of Donald Trump, and these have become quite familiar. He called for the National Guard or U.S. military to be deployed on U.S. soil to target what he called radical left lunatics. Trump made the call, at least this particular one — he said it repeatedly — during an interview on Fox News.
DONALD TRUMP: I think the bigger problem are the people from within. We have some very bad people. We have some sick people, radical left lunatics. And I think they’re the — and it should be very easily handled by — if necessary, by National Guard or, if really necessary, by the military, because they can’t let that happen.
AMY GOODMAN: And this is Donald Trump speaking in Aurora, Colorado, earlier this month.
DONALD TRUMP: It’s the enemy from within, all the scum that we have to deal with, that hate our country. That’s a bigger enemy than China and Russia.
AMY GOODMAN: And, of course, we know what John Kelly said, his former, longest-lasting chief of staff, the general, who called him the “definition of a fascist.” Your response, Professor Ben-Ghiat?
RUTH BEN-GHIAT: So, you know, retired military officers, especially generals, don’t speak out unless they feel there’s a real need to do so. And the fact we’re seeing General Kelly, General Milley, former Defense Secretary Esper speak out and use the “F” word, calling Trump a fascist, means that they are highly concerned about a possible misuse of the military, because, again, this goes back. When Trump talks about scum and perhaps needing to use the military against them, this echoes Francisco Franco and the whole discourse of the subhuman, which was integral to fascism.
But there’s also a geopolitical dimension that’s very important, because if you’re Putin or Xi or North Korea and you have your expansionist aspirations, the power and professionalism of the U.S. military is a huge problem. The global reach of the U.S. military is a huge problem. So, here comes Donald Trump, who’s the latest partner of Putin — there’s been Gerhard Schröder, Silvio Berlusconi, now we have Trump — who wants to give the U.S. military a new role, concentrating them on domestic repression, withdrawing from NATO, calling troops back from abroad. And so, we have to think about who benefits geopolitically from this rerouting of the military. I’m not saying the military would go along with this, but this is what Trump is saying by — when he declares repeatedly, and as does JD Vance, that the bigger problem — you know, Russia and China are not the biggest problem; it’s the enemy within. So, this refocusing of military and armed force on American people benefits Putin, benefits Xi, benefits any autocrat who has expansionist ambitions.