Home
Archive
Newsletters
Video
Blogs
Discuss
About
Search
Donate
Advertise

What Makes Obama and McCain Think They Can "Win" Afghanistan?

By Robert Fisk, Independent UK. Posted September 22, 2008.


To claim the U.S. can achieve now what the British couldn't in the 19th century and the Russians couldn't at the end of the 20th is pure fantasy.
Advertisement
Upcoming AlterNet stories on Digg

Poor old Algerians. They are being served the same old pap from their cruel government. In 1997, the Pouvoir announced a "final victory" over their vicious Islamist enemies. On at least three occasions, I reported -- not, of course, without appropriate cynicism -- that the Algerian authorities believed their enemies were finally beaten because the "terrorists" were so desperate that they were beheading every man, woman and child in the villages they captured in the mountains around Algiers and Oran.

And now they're at it again. After a ferocious resurgence of car bombing by their newly merged "al-Qa'ida in the Maghreb" antagonists, the decrepit old FLN government in Algiers has announced the "terminal phase" in its battle against armed Islamists. As the Algerian journalist Hocine Belaffoufi said with consummate wit the other day, "According to this political discourse … the increase in attacks represents undeniable proof of the defeat of terrorism. The more terrorism collapsed, the more the attacks increased … so the stronger (terrorism) becomes, the fewer attacks there will be."

We, of course, have been peddling this crackpot nonsense for years in southwest Asia. First of all, back in 2001, we won the war in Afghanistan by overthrowing the Taliban. Then we marched off to win the war in Iraq. Now -- with at least one suicide bombing a day and the nation carved up into mutually antagonistic sectarian enclaves -- we have won the war in Iraq and are heading back to re-win the war in Afghanistan where the Taliban, so thoroughly trounced by our chaps seven years ago, have proved their moral and political bankruptcy by recapturing half the country.

It seems an age since Donald "Stuff Happens" Rumsfeld declared, "A government has been put in place (in Afghanistan), and the Islamists are no more the law in Kabul. Of course, from time to time a hand grenade, a mortar explodes -- but in New York and in San Francisco, victims also fall. As for me, I'm full of hope." Oddly, back in the Eighties, I heard exactly the same from a Soviet general at the Bagram airbase in Afghanistan -- yes, the very same Bagram airbase where the CIA lads tortured to death a few of the Afghans who escaped the earlier Russian massacres. Only "terrorist remnants" remained in the Afghan mountains, the jolly Russian general assured us. Afghan troops, along with the limited Soviet "intervention" forces, were restoring peace to democratic Afghanistan.

And now? After the "unimaginable" progress in Iraq -- I am quoting the fantasist who still occupies the White House -- the Americans are going to hip-hop 8,000 soldiers out of Mesopotamia and dump another 4,700 into the hellfire of Afghanistan. Too few, too late, too slow, as one of my French colleagues commented acidly. It would need at least another 10,000 troops to hope to put an end to these Taliban devils who are now equipped with more sophisticated weapons, better trained and increasingly -- sad to say -- tolerated by the local civilian population. For Afghanistan, read Irakistan.

Back in the late 19th century, the Taliban -- yes, the British actually called their black-turbaned enemies "Talibs" -- would cut the throats of captured British soldiers. Now this unhappy tradition is repeated -- and we are surprised! Two of the American soldiers seized when the Taliban stormed into their mountain base on 13 July this year were executed by their captors.

And now it turns out that four of the 10 French troops killed in Afghanistan on August 18th surrendered to the Taliban, and were almost immediately executed. Their interpreter had apparently disappeared shortly before their mission began -- no prizes for what this might mean -- and the two French helicopters which might have helped to save the day were too busy guarding the hopeless and impotent Afghan President Hamid Karzai to intervene on behalf of their own troops. A French soldier described the Taliban with brutal frankness. "They are good soldiers but pitiless enemies."

The Soviet general at Bagram now has his amanuensis in General David McKiernan, the senior U.S. officer in Afghanistan, who proudly announced last month that U.S. forces had killed "between 30 and 35 Taliban" in a raid on Azizabad near Herat. "In the light of emerging evidence pertaining (sic) to civilian casualties in the … counter-insurgency operation," the luckless general now says, he feels it "prudent" -- another big sic here -- to review his original investigation. The evidence "pertaining," of course, is that the Americans probably killed 90 people in Azizabad, most of them women and children. We -- let us be frank and own up to our role in the hapless NATO alliance in Afghanistan -- have now slaughtered more than 500 Afghan civilians this year alone. These include a NATO missile attack on a wedding party in July when we splattered 47 of the guests all over the village of Deh Bala.

And Obama and McCain really think they're going to win in Afghanistan -- before, I suppose, rushing their soldiers back to Iraq when the Baghdad government collapses. What the British couldn't do in the 19th century and what the Russians couldn't do at the end of the 20th century, we're going to achieve at the start of the 21 century, taking our terrible war into nuclear-armed Pakistan just for good measure. Fantasy again.

Joseph Conrad, who understood the powerlessness of powerful nations, would surely have made something of this. Yes, we have lost after we won in Afghanistan and now we will lose as we try to win again. Stuff happens.

Digg!    Share on facebook   submit to reddit    Bookmark on Delicious   Stumble This  

See more stories tagged with: afghanistan, barack obama, john mccain, nato

Robert Fisk has just published The Age of the Warrior: Selected Essays (Nation Books) and is currently on a . For more information go to www.nationbooks.org.

Liked this story? Get top stories in your inbox each week from World! Sign up now »


Advertisement
Advertisement

 

Comments Turn comments off sitewide Give us feedback »
Comments closed.
The comments for this story have been closed. Thank you to everyone who participated.
View:
Afghanistan
Posted by: teufelhunde on Sep 23, 2008 9:40 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even as a person who believes that fighting on two fronts defies military convention and logic, I do not believe that defeat in either Iraq or Afghanistan are inevitable. The fact is, the amount of time we spend in Afghanistan is dependent only on the political will of the American people to remain there. Our military would spend a hundred years in hell fighting to defeat the enemy if it had to.

On the other hand, the American people do not have that inclination, and Bush is close to using up all of his political capital in maintaining our positions in the Middle East. Even when we lost tens of thousands of men in the second world war, the American people were, are, and will only ever accept these kinds of casualties if there is tangible progress being made.

It is true that America does not hold the moral high ground we did after 9-11. Whatever your opinion on the war in Iraq, it has sapped our resolve, and turning our reason for the war almost into a 'victory for victory's sake' argument. But to hold that the Taliban has a higher moral purpose than we do I believe is patently false. I also refuse to believe that somehow Americans are killing the Afghani people on purpose, or that we have killed more Afghans than the Taliban have. To be sure, 500 some civilian deaths is high, and if credible , saddening. But as I have said, hard for me to believe. I believe that victory in Afghanistan is crucial, not only for our national security, but for the future prosperity of the Afghan people.

God Protect our Troops (and the Afghan people too)

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Afghanistan Posted by: John Annis
» RE: Afghanistan Posted by: blitzmesser
I only have one question about Afghanistan...
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Sep 24, 2008 12:38 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What do the people want?

I'm serious. If the Afghans don't like foreign soldiers in their country, we should leave.

Conversely, if they want U.S. and NATO troops to protect them, then every able-bodied male from 18 to 50 should be serving in the Afghan army or police force.

Otherwise, fuck 'em!

John McCain--OLD ideas, OLD solutions, OLD lobby connections

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Winning Afghanistan is not the objective
Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus on Sep 24, 2008 3:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Winning Afghanistan is not the objective. It's Pakistan because they are an ally of China.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Pakistan is not ultimate aim either
Posted by: Don Quixote on Sep 24, 2008 4:14 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pakistan is not the ultimate target. It is the whole planet, as Zeitgeistmovie.com so well explains.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

They know we can't win: they are just pandering to the 2 lowest bottom-feeders in society
Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale on Sep 24, 2008 5:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The first set are the stupid ones who support throwing our tax dollars at imperial wars abroad in order to enrich war profiteers while our infrastructure crumbles, good jobs disappear, and we go without national health insurance. These are the stupid ones and I believe Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda, wrote about them in his diaries. They keep their mouths shut over the loss of jobs and growing unaffordability of college. They sell their children's future down the river because supporting the war machine makes them feel macho and self-righteous. Along with the uber-rich, they make up the base of the rethuglican party.

The second set of bottom-feeders are those who profit from having us stew in a fear-based society: the military-security- and prison-industrial complex. The ones who sell surveillance technology and militarize police forces. These greedy amoral capitalists are tearing our society apart.

Of course we can't win in Afghanistan. Even the CIA says a military-only solution would fail. We will keep getting crap intelligence and bomb wedding parties (what is it now? 6?)

And the Taliban have been successful in opening up a third front for us- Pakistan. Now their troops are firing on our helicopters. Our military is stretched to the breaking point. Sending more troops to Afghanistan just guarantees more American deaths.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

It depends on your definition of WIN
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Sep 24, 2008 7:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you define 'winning' as having a peaceful and prosperous nation that protects individual liberties, then no they arent interested in winning.

But when you define 'winning' as creating a massive vortex which sucks in taxpayer money and excretes terror and drugs to be used to cow the population into a tighter and tighter control grid, then yes they are very much interested in winning.

It sounds insane but that is the true "winning formula". That's the exact formula the British and the Russians were following. Why? Because they were all controlled by eugenicists whose goal is to kill off most of the population.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Americans out!
Posted by: 876 on Sep 24, 2008 8:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You American bastards talk of staying in this or that country for 100 years and then wonder why people have such a hate for you. You are such pompous bullies to impose on the liberty, autonomy and dignity of others and their homelands yet you have the gall to demand reverence, respect and submission. If you savages hadn’t been meddling in Afghanistan for the past thirty years it wouldn’t be in the condition it is in. You dare to pretend you are sacrificing yourselves for the sake of the Afghan people who died for decades for the defeat of America’s enemies while Americans prospered and lived lives of splendor without a clue or a care as to where or even what Afghanistan was. Now you think you know Afghanistan? Now you feel entitled to blame and punish the destitute people of a shattered nation for the chaos you yourselves have created? You dare to accuse the Afghan people of harboring foreign criminals you yourselves unleashed on the Afghan people? You dare to question the commitment to liberty of the Afghan people who have fought and struggled for their freedom for over three decades of western imposed tyranny? Afghanistan owes you barbarians NOTHING!

Why don’t you European animals get out of other peoples homes and mind your own business? Wherever you people go war destruction and chaos inevitably follow. You cowards drop your bombs and kill from the safety of your jets, fight your battles against each other on the homelands of bystanders than have the gall to blubber about Islamists and terrorists? All while deeming yourselves brave heroes no less. There will never be peace as long as American busybodies meddle where they are not wanted but clearly that is the goal.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Americans out! Posted by: citizenjoy
» RE: Americans out! Posted by: CJC
» RE: Americans out! Posted by: beautifulady2003
No one ever wins an occupation.
Posted by: PDJane on Sep 24, 2008 9:01 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Afghanistan is a failed state, and the US helped to make them so.

Carter signed the Taliban into existence in July of 1979, at the behest of Berezinski. The idea was to tempt the Russians to invade, and they did. After the defeat of Russia, the US funded the Northern Alliance in order to keep control of the Taliban. During all of this, the CIA funded al Quaeda.

Afghanistan has been bombed back to the stone age in order to satisfy the imperial ambitions of the US, and in my view, both the US and Britain owe the Afghanis and Iraq reparations and a strong rebuilding programme.

Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11, and the CIA has said that they don't have enough proof to charge Bin Laden with the 9/11 attacks. THERE IS NO PROOF THAT BIN LADEN WAS INVOLVED, SO THERE WAS NO REASON FOR AFGHANISTAN TO HAND HIM OVER. The whole idea was regime change and resource control, nothing more and nothing less.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: No one ever wins an occupation. Posted by: beautifulady2003
War Is Not A Football Game
Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Sep 24, 2008 9:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is there to "win" in Afghanistan? Obama and McCain are acting like coaches who think victory is guaranteed over an technologically inferior opponent. But they know our game plan and have the "home field advantage."
The major faux pas is that this game will rage on ad infinitum without a time clock and they get to call time outs.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

US must lower its profile in Afghanistan and seek Iran's help
Posted by: Garvagh on Sep 24, 2008 11:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great piece! As a veteran of the vicious civil war in Algeria, Jacques Chirac of France knew what he was talking about when he told Tony Blair that a US/UK invasion of Iraq would set off a vicious civil war. The idiot in the White House did not want to hear this, of course. The idiot in the White House apparently cannot compehend the fact that the gigantic US war machine in Iraq is further inflaming Islamic militancy in the region! The idiot in the White House would rather squander further hundreds of billions of US taxpayer dollars, than admit he was a fool.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

I have four words for Afghanistan
Posted by: roncypert on Sep 24, 2008 11:56 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The FORMER Soviet Union.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Afghan womens' organization
Posted by: fanny666 on Sep 24, 2008 12:07 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA)

They have spoken out against an increased NATO/ US presence in Afghanistan.

Polls tend to show that the Afghan people want a NATO presence LINK

Although that is declining.

That being said, most of these polls are skewed towards Afghans living in cities, and especially Kabul. And it could be argued that Kabul is the only area that's really in good shape.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Afghan womens' organization Posted by: Captainmagic
No one can 'win' with the US
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Sep 24, 2008 1:46 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Truthfully we've been playing both ends against the middle in that region ever since the end of WW2. We've put horrid dictatirs in charge of countries just so American Oil Millionaires can become Billionaires. Now we have to make amends for this dishonesty.
There is no 'win' here. We failed the Afghan people back in the 80's. We told them in exchange for their help in knocking off the Russians we'd make sure the poor tribes folks,who did all the fighting and die-ing, we'd give them indoor flush toilets,eletricity,paved roads,the internet. To date we've delivered nothing!! With that kind of track record we could'nt win the beauty prize in a monopoly game.
The Taliban used to execute opium grower right in their fields. Through that action Afghanistan was the #3 producer behind SE Asia. Another market we created. Since we got to Afghanistan we've made them the #1 producer.
Coincidence? Not really. That's how we do business on the world stage. We learned it from the Brits. Their East India Trading Company made opium heads out of that whole region just to get Chinese silver. We're doing it for oil,so we're the 'good guys'?
The only 'win' anywhere for us will be to stand before the World and confess the wrongdoings of our government. Until we can do that,there will never be a 'win' anywhere. Just more distrust and anguish over crooked deals made with the devil dressed in Red White and Blue.
So,honestly,we have a house to clean before we can even think about anybody elses 'win'.
The terrorists are in the Whitehouse and the Congress. They've put us in such dire straights that we needed to create an ambigious war against invisable agents of terror in other parts of the World,and the worst part is,better than half of the citizens believe their bullshit. I'm not one of them. But I do believe the only way for us to regain any shred of respect in the world is to expose the corrupted assholes in our government that has brought us to this point and hand them over to the Hague. Sorry GHW Bush but your little boy's going down for Crimes Against Humanity and if your ass was'nt so old...we'd be coming for you too.
Restore your Freedom and Liberty!!!
Write-in Jeffrey 7 (Smith) for Prez in '08

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Chinese tea Posted by: BigRon
The last person to win a war in Afghanistan
Posted by: chloelin on Sep 24, 2008 8:15 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The last person to win a war in Afghanistan was Alexander the Great wasn't it?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

PDJane
Posted by: PDJane on Sep 26, 2008 9:28 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There was no real reason to go to war in Afghanistan in the first place. Iran has no military, no security forces, no working government, and hasn't had since the 1970's. Bin Laden may or may not have been there, but there was no acceptable proof that he was responsible for the world trade centre bombings. The CIA has admitted so.

So, the US did its usual thing...it sent in the bombers, dropped DU munitions and killed a lot of civilians, made thousands homeless and thousands more refugees...and it worked so well that they decided to perform the same magic in Iraq. Brilliant.

The Taliban was funded by the US, signed into existence by Jimmy Carter in July of 1979; a full six months before the Russians invaded.

The Northern Alliance was funded to keep the Taliban in lined instead of having an occupation.

Al Quaeda was an invention of the CIA.

Do the Afghanis want their country back? Well, yeah. They've been bombed back to the stone age and the US army is still bombing the hell out of civilians. Farmers. Wedding processions. Anything that moves, including sheep.

The US owes Afghanistan assistance. The US owes Iraq assistance. But those countries need the kind of assistance that gives civilians a chance at their lives, and the US isn't good at providing that kind of aid.

Enough. If you want to know why the Afghanis want you out and why they feel you owe them, dig a bit further. The information is there.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: PDJane Posted by: beautifulady2003
ZOGs, ZOA. ZOB, and ZOC
Posted by: Paxmana1 on Sep 27, 2008 9:46 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good on ya Fiskie, but watch your back mate. Dont go home .. they have a water boarding suite waiting for you at Paddington Green after the Yanks have softened you up on Diego Garcia.

The British Army have a saying .. 'Up your Khyber' .. rhyming slang .. Khyber Pass = Ass. And its for sure those gutsy Afghani and Iraqi peoples are shafting and whipping the military of ZOA,ZOB and ZOC.

Imperial British India sent an Army into Afghanistan with their women camp followers .. just one man was spared to carry the message back to GHQ in India. The Khyber pass was littered with the bodies of the British Invaders and they lost their Regimental Colors as well as the Officers Mess Silver ware.

ZOA, ZOB, and ZOC are ZOGS .. Poorly paid security guards for Israel and Big Oil.

Face it America you are losers just as you were losers in Vietnam. Your terror and false flag operations no longer work. Your weapons of Mass Economic Destruction in pursuit of the American dream have backfired .. its called Karma.

How to end this nightmare is very simple .. an International Court of Inquiry into the Jewish Holocaust Claims, followed up by a proper investigation of Yank 9/11 WTC and a proper investigation of the Brit 7/7.

ZOG = Zionist Occupied Government.
ZOA = Zionist Occupied America.
ZOB = Zionist Occupied Britain.
ZOC = Zionist Occupied Canada.

The Zionists have built the Concentration Camps with your taxes and already have a Brigade of American Military killers on Homeland soil to enforce your coming martial law.

R.I.P. ZOGS

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Another Americam Imperial edict
Posted by: sicntired on Sep 28, 2008 1:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I watched Bill Moyers this week and he reran a piece by an ex soldier and current professor that spoke of the imperial presidency and how America has lost it's way.His point was that America should put it's own house in order and quit trying to play cop on the world stage.Where will the troops for Afghanistan come from?The same poor slobs that have done up to five tours in Iraq.The 1.5% of the American population that's still dumb enough to sign up for the slaughter.You know that these guys have no alternatives.No one would sign on for the madness that the American Army has become.Only a commander in chief who has never gone to war could expect men and women to put up with this kind of abuse.Now both candidates are insane enough to suggest that these poor fuckers be sent to Afghanistan,the graveyard of invaders.Only a commander in chief that has never gone to war.How do you explain a John McCain?Impossible,unless that 5 years broke any sense he ever had.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

  • AlterNetYour turn

Support AlterNet
Do you value the information you're getting from AlterNet? Please show your support with a tax-deductible donation.


Feedback
Tell us how we're doing.

Advertisement
Advertisement