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America's Armageddonites Push for More War

By Jon Basil Utley, Foreign Policy in Focus. Posted October 22, 2007.


Some fundamentalist evangelicals have moved from forecasting Armageddon to actually trying to bring it about.
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Utopian fantasies have long transfixed the human race. Yet today a much rarer fantasy has become popular in the United States. Millions of Americans, the richest people in history, have a death wish. They are the new "Armageddonites," fundamentalist evangelicals who have moved from forecasting Armageddon to actually trying to bring it about.

Most journalists find it difficult to take seriously that tens of millions of Americans, filled with fantasies of revenge and empowerment, long to leave a world they despise. These Armageddonites believe that they alone will get a quick, free pass when they are "raptured" to paradise, no good deeds necessary, not even a day of judgment. Ironically, they share this utopian fantasy with a group that they often castigate, namely fundamentalist Muslims who believe that dying in battle also means direct access to Heaven. For the Armageddonites, however, there are no waiting virgins, but they do agree with Muslims that there will be "no booze, no bars," in the words of a popular Gaither Singers song.

These end-timers have great influence over the U.S. government's foreign policy. They are thick with the Republican leadership. At a recent conference in Washington, congressional leader Roy Blunt, for example, has said that their work is "part of God's plan." At the same meeting, where speakers promoted attacking Iran, former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay glorified "end times." Indeed the Bush administration often consults with them on Mideast policies. The organizer of the conference, Rev. John Hagee, is often welcomed at the White House, although his ratings are among the lowest on integrity and transparency by Ministry Watch, which rates religious broadcasters. He raises millions of dollars from his campaign supporting Israeli settlements on the West Bank, including much for himself. Erstwhile presidential candidate Gary Bauer is on his Board of Directors. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson also both expressed strong end-times beliefs.

American fundamentalists strongly supported the decision to invade Iraq in 2003. They consistently support Israel's hard-line policies. And they are beating the drums for war against Iran. Thanks to these end-timers, American foreign policy has turned much of the world against us, including most Muslims, nearly a quarter of the human race.

The Beginning of End Times

The evangelical movement originally was not so "end times" focused. Rather, it was concerned with the "moral" decline inside America. The Armageddon theory started with the writings of a Scottish preacher, John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). His ideas then spread to America with publication in 1917 of the Scofield Reference Bible, foretelling that the return of the Jews to Palestine would bring about the end times. The best-selling book of the 1970s, The Late, Great Planet Earth, further spread this message. The movement did not make a conscious effort to affect foreign policy until Jerry Falwell went to Jerusalem and the Left Behind books became best sellers.

Conservative Christian writer Gary North estimates the number of Armageddonites at about 20 million. Many of them have an ecstatic belief in the cleansing power of apocalyptic violence. They are among the more than 30% of Americans who believe that the world is soon coming to an end. Armageddonites may be a minority of the evangelicals, but they have vocal leaders and control 2,000 mostly fundamentalist religious radio stations.

Although little focused on in America, Armageddonites attract the attention of Muslims abroad. In 2004, for instance, I attended Qatar's Fifth Conference on Democracy with Muslim leaders from all over the Arabian Gulf. There, the uncle of Jordan's king devoted his whole speech to warning of the Armageddonites' power over American foreign policy.

Armageddonite Foreign Policy

The beliefs of the Armageddon Lobby, also known as Dispensationalists, come from the Book of Revelations, which Martin Luther relegated it to an appendix when he translated the Bible because its image of Christ was so contrary to the rest of the Bible. The Armageddonites worship a vengeful, killer-torturer Christ. They also frequently quote a biblical passage that God favors those who favor the Jews. But they only praise Jews who make war, not those who are peacemakers. For example, they vigorously opposed Israel's murdered premier Yitzhak Rabin, who promoted the Oslo Peace Accords.

Based on this Biblical interpretation, the Armageddonites vehemently argue that America must protect Israel and encourage its settlements on the West Bank in order to help God fulfill His plans. The return of Jews to Palestine is central to the prophetic vision of the Armageddonites, who see it as a critical step toward the final battle, Armageddon, and the victory of the righteous over Satan's minions. There are a couple internal inconsistencies with this prophecy, such as the presence of Christians already living in the Holy Land and the role of Jews in the final dispensation. In the first case, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and other Religious Right leaders tried to pretend that Christians already in the Holy Land simply didn't exist. As for Jews, they needed to become "born again" Christians to avoid God's wrath (or, according to some Armageddonites, a separate Jewish covenant with God will gain them a separate Paradise).

Everyone else -- Buddhists, Muslims (of course), Hindus, atheists, and so on -- are then slated to die in the Tribulation that comes with Armageddon. As described in the bestselling Left Behind series, this time of human misery ends with Christ then ruling a paradise on earth for a thousand years.

Armageddonites know little about the outside world, which they think of as threatening and awash with Satanic temptations. They are big supporters of Bush's "go it alone" foreign policies. For example, they love John Bolton. They were prime supporters for attacking Iraq. And, with very few exceptions, they were noticeably quiet about, if not supportive, of torturing prisoners of war (only with a new leadership did the National Association of Evangelicals finally condemn torture in May, 2007). Their support of the Senator Joseph Lieberman (I-CT) and former New York mayor Rudy Giuliani shows that they consider aggressively prosecuting Mideast war (to help speed up the apocalypse) more important than the domestic programs of these socially liberal politicians.

On other foreign policy issues, they are violently against the pending Law of the Seas Treaty, indeed any treaty which possibly circumscribes U.S. power to go it alone. They want illegal immigrants expelled and oppose more immigration. They fear China's growth. They despise Europeans for not being more warlike. The UN figures prominently in their fears, and the Left Behind books present its Secretary General as the Antichrist. Domestically, they strongly support the USA PATRIOT Act and all of President Bush's actions, legal or illegal.

Armageddonites and Fascism

Author and former New York Times reporter Christopher Hedges argues that worldview and reasoning of the Armageddonites tend toward fascism. In his book American Fascists, Hedges focuses on their obedience to leadership, their feelings of humiliation and victimhood, alienation, their support for authoritarian government, and their disinterestedness in constitutional limits on government power. Theirs was originally a defensive movement against the liberal democratic society, particularly abortion, school desegregation, and now globalization, which they saw as undermining their communities and families, their values, and livelihood. Their fundamentalism is very fulfilling and, Hedges writes, "they are terrified of losing this new, mystical world of signs, wonders and moral certitude, of returning to the old world of despair."

Hedges, a graduate of Harvard Divinity School, also shows that fundamentalists are quite selective. They don't take the Bible literally when it comes to justifying slavery or that children who curse a parent are to be executed. The movement is also very masculine, giving poor men a path to re-establish their authority in what they perceive as an overly feminized culture. Images of Jesus often show Him with thick muscles, clutching a sword. Christian men are portrayed as powerful warriors.

The overwhelming power and warmongering of the Armageddonites has inspired some resistance from other fundamentalists, but they are a minority. Theologian Richard Fenn writes, "Silent complicity (by mainline churches) with apocalyptic rhetoric soon becomes collusion with plans for religiously inspired genocide." Their death-wishing "religion" is actually anti-Christian and should be challenged openly by traditional Christians.

The next election will likely loosen their grip on the White House. However, their growing ties to the military industrial complex will remain. Exposure of their war wanting as a major threat to America and the world may well become as destructive for them as was the famous Scopes trial in the 1920s. But that will only happen if Americans become as concerned as foreign observers about the influence of the Armageddonites.

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See more stories tagged with: religious right, armageddon, warmongers

Jon Basil Utley is associate publisher of The American Conservative. He is a writer and advisor for Antiwar.com, a chairman of ConservativesForPeace.com, and a contributor to Foreign Policy In Focus.

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The ultimate horror show !!!
Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Oct 22, 2007 5:44 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have never read anything so disturbing, so terrifying, that a group of Americans are so stark staring insane as to conspire to force the whole World into their mad suicide pact with their utterly perverted vision of God's will - and they have the President's approval and alliegiance?! Apparently it is really true, that whom God would destroy are first made mad - while the mass of Americans hide inside their favorite sit-coms!

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» RE: The ultimate horror show !!! Posted by: Blue Heron
» Wrong Example Posted by: Jbuuty
» Act now before it's too late Posted by: Constitutionalist75
God the myth
Posted by: ray burchard on Oct 23, 2007 1:31 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth“
( Nietzsche ).

Would not the developmental course of Mankind follow the same patterned matrix characteristics as that of a progenies relationship to its progenitor and primogenitor? Therefore just like the myth of Santa Claus, as that being, a temporal belief dispelled by the natural course of intellectual development. Then too, couldn’t man’s belief in an overseeing governance of justice, forgiveness and provider of hope and direction, also be a designed myth provided by convention as man’s moral compass and a wellspring of fellowship and goodwill?

Was God around for the caveman, or did he conveniently appear as mankind’s intellectual awareness of his own fragile mortality also came into being? Could not the invention of an all powerful myth, be a manifestation of man’s desire for something solid to anchor and hold onto against an unrelenting oscillating tide of universal change, and isn’t this why God appeared differently, but with the same message, simultaneously in differing cultures.

Then too, couldn’t the feared “Armageddon” represent an intellectual awakening and the end of a people’s need for religious leaders like CUFI founder John Hagee, who themselves prosper off the growing public fears and the misery of the innocent.

Because of a connate sense of belonging, when asked, individuals will always describe their political as well as religious secular affiliations (personas) as pertaining to their broader mindset of humanity and not necessarily referencing their individual allegiance to a monastic and/or perfunctory restrictions and responsibilities.
Therefore, referring to America’s religious community as being in and of itself, an indication of a growing American predominance, is disingenuous. When the fact is America’s overall religious devotion is in decline and thereby demonstrating the overall purpose of inculcating religious doctrines was to create an instinctual human sense of morality, as the advantage of leverage.

This is also, evidence that Darwin’s natural selection also pertains to and encompasses the advancement of a collective ameliorated knowledge versus the individual’s archaic and antiquated solipsistic beliefs. Holism, where the “whole” has a greater value (reality) then the sum of it’s comprising parts.

Come on people get real, God is in the process and not sitting on high orchestrating and adjudicating every aspect of life. Sooner or later your going to have to realize that; God, Santa Claus, The Lone Ranger and Nietzsche’s Superman etc… are all one in the same and represent just figments (placebo) of our imagination, and as such, just facets along the road of evolutionary development.

“I had therefore to remove knowledge, in order to make room for belief”
(Kant).

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» RE: God the myth Posted by: talkville
» It's already happened Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: It's already happened Posted by: talkville
» RE: God the myth Posted by: Gisele
» Gobbledygook Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: Gobbledygook Posted by: kimbari
» RE: Gobbledygook Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: Gobbledygook Posted by: ray burchard
» RE: Gobbledygook Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: Gobbledygook Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: God the myth Posted by: aonghus36
ah there's the rub
Posted by: solrev on Oct 24, 2007 11:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Their death-wishing "religion" is actually anti-Christian and should be challenged openly by traditional Christians.

Traditional Christians can not openly challenge anyone. Jesus was specific in his teachings about being a public Christian. We do not chant in public. We can respond but we can not instigate the conversation. This is why separation of church and state is a necessity for Christians. Faith is personal and the state is public. The Koran defines the internal struggle of people to define and maintain their personal relationship to God as jihad. This is a fundamental concept that all Christians can identify with. Unfortunately the fundamentalists on both sides being public make it appear that there is a battle between Christians and Muslims ordained by God. The battle of Armageddon is not a battle between men it is the final battle between God and Satan. Jesus will cast the beast into the abyss and end the influence of the master deceiver in this dimension. Armageddon is the final revolution for our freedom. Free at last, thank God we are free at last.

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» RE: ah there's the rub Posted by: talkville
thekidde
Posted by: thekidde on Oct 26, 2007 12:30 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I say line 'em up and give 'em the Kool-Aid.

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THE ARMAGEDDON STEP SISTERS OF CINDERELLA
Posted by: SALLY EVANS on Oct 27, 2007 9:52 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THERE IS NOTHING LIKE ALLOWING THS SCRIPTURES TO GET INTO THE WRONG HANDS. THE IDIOTS WILL PUSH, TWIST AND SHOVE TO FORCE THE BIBLE INTO THEIR OWN INTERPRETATION OF THE END TIMES. JESUS HAS SAYS THAT NO ONE, GET IT, NO ONE KNOWS THE TIME OF THE END.. BUT DO THEY LISTEN TO JESUS? NOO, THEY WANT TO MAKE IT WHEN THEY WANT IT AND THEY WILL DO ALL KINDS OF HORRIFIC THINGS TO BRING IT ABOUT. THEY WILL CAUSE MUCH SORROW AND CHAOS BUT WILL NOT BRING ON ARMAGEDDON!

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Let's not just call Gary North a "conservative Christian"
Posted by: riley on Oct 28, 2007 9:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If he's the one I'm thinking about, he is a devout Christian Reconstructionist and son-in-law of the late Rushdooney, author of THE INSTITUTES OF BIBLICAL LAW. The plan is not just the Armageddon thingie. It is to make their own version of Biblical Law the law of the land in America and ALL other countries. Non-Christians could not vote or hold office. Homosexuals and adulterers would be executed publicly, preferably by stoning. These people are fundamentally insane.

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Self fullfilling prophecy
Posted by: vertical on Oct 28, 2007 11:04 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh yeh! the rapture is comming bercause the holy stupid arte going to make it a self-fullfilling prophecy!

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» RE: Self fullfilling prophecy Posted by: willymack
Do you ever wonder if their own reflections in a mirror
Posted by: owlbear1 on Oct 29, 2007 10:51 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
put Fundies into a 'fight or flight' situation?


I sure do.

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If they weren't so rich....
Posted by: EJW on Nov 3, 2007 1:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....and powerful, I'd just laugh at them. But I've talked to some of these people and it is really scary....
have we dumed down so much as a society that we come to this..... maybe we don't deservse to live on.
Christian Values - hypocrites of the first rank- I'm sure there is a special hell for them.
I've been sick of it since I was born. Christianity destroyes everything it touches. Bah.

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The Apocalyptic imagination isn't restricted to the right wing
Posted by: stmunks on Nov 3, 2007 2:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I share Utley's alarm with the "Armageddonites" and their determination to force their god's hand, I think it's worth noting that they're by no means the only people in this country who not only believe the end is nigh, but take a certain satisfaction in the notion.

Utley himself notes that 30% of the American population thinks the world is going to end soon, a number that I think would be even higher if the question were to more broadly include concepts such as environmental catastrophe, economic collapse, societal collapse, etc. To be honest, I'd probably be one of those people.

What I find particularly troubling, however, is that many progressives, left wingers, and the like who share that belief with me seem to take a grim satisfaction in the notion that this will happen. Even though they won't be raptured in their belief system, there's a certain tone that says, "And then people will FINALLY have to admit we were RIGHT!" I think it's that sort of desire - the desire to show up those who disagree with us - that drives the Rapture myth, as it is all about looking down from the Heavens and gloating as the sinners get their due. Replace "sinners" with "wealthy capitalists" or "wasteful consumers," and you get the same sort of attitude on the left.

Mind you, I say this as a *very* strong leftist myself, and acknowledge that there's a certain part of me that would probably take grim satisfaction as well. But here's the thing: if it all falls apart, everybody will scramble to explain it in their own world view. There will be no humble acknowledgments of living a lie, whether that lie be a life without Christ or a life of vapid consumerism. There will simply be furious, desperate factions fighting over the scraps of what is left - if anything.

Let's all work to *stop* annihilation. The lives of billions are at stake, and it is the ultimate reprehensible act to cheer for their deaths, no matter what the political or religious perspective.

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» Valid! Posted by: talkville
» Very Well Put Observation. Posted by: grumble-bum
"The People Elected the Elect"
Posted by: talkville on Nov 3, 2007 3:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Once again the Middle East is in play between the two most evangelic and zeal-generating religions: Christianity and Mohamedanism. Two heavens, two Prophets, two Gods (or is it one, or three, or 5? I forget) two belief-structures.In the midst, the area which generated these two and the Judaic religions. And oil everywhere. Both hate the Body and the Flesh and anything material - it CORRUPTS, it allows no PURITY, no Absolute. Bodies are necessary in the struggle to reach that Pure, Eternal State Outside of time and space. Their "life-style" and piety guarantees them they are chosen to reach that state. And they're ready to go. Let them go! Impeach them, fire them, block them, retire them, whatever it takes.

Perhaps there's still time, but I fear the Seed (trade-marked by Monsanto) has been planted and thick and tendril-like roots have spread wildly into the deepest sectors of our lives. Empire's being built despite Nero playin' his fiddle at the moment (he's kinda clumsy!). And we need to remember that a Caesar or a Napoleon don't necessarily need to be gathered into one personality. There are many methods available these days to 'skin cats'.

These guys may just perhaps be playin' with all of us in a bizarre and twisted version of the old Madman Theory. But they got so involved in it all and confused with it they turned it into a brand new Madman Practice.

The people elected them, the people must boot 'em and challenge 'em anywhere and everywhere they speak and act. Enough of Kulturkampf, un-Real "Real-politik", Corporatism and Imperialism. Many of the worst effects are kept well out of sight in other parts of the world, and not only in the Middle East. They don't count! Iraq's doing better because less American lives were lost in one month than another ( a 'values scale'). Most of the Americans that ARE lost are not precisely from back-grounds familiar to the Elect, so they don't matter so much either. Mr Cheney couldn't tell the difference between a Sunni or a Shiia or a Druze nor does it matter -- they're a dime-a-dozen.

Dis-engage to Engage; Engage to Dis-engage. Daily. Boot these people out!

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I think were gonna need help
Posted by: davy on Nov 3, 2007 3:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If people think seeing UFO's is crazy . . . In fact, I think were gonna need some help from those UFO's.

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WHY NOT POINT OUT THE OBVIOUS?
Posted by: aberdeen on Nov 3, 2007 4:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What I find saddest about the whole modern fiasco of liberal vs. conservative, is that liberals remain afraid to attack the obvious conservative Christian liars where it counts. For example, in a recent appearance by Ann Coulter on Hardball, Chris Matthews, who professes to be a practicing Catholic and thus, should know better, just let Coulter rant on and on about how "godly" and "biblical" she and her side supposedly is, without once bothering to point out that what Coulter claims and what Jesus said are entirely opposite.

Likewise, Jon Basil Utley in this article does not one time bother to point out that what conservative Christians promote and what the New Testament actually teaches are polar opposites. Until anti-war leaning media pundits are willing to openly challenge liars like Coulter where it counts, mainstream Joe American is not likely to change. The reason millions of sincere Americans follow obvious frauds like Robertson and Coulter is that those on the other "side" are afraid to point out what utter liars they are. If nobody bothers to point out the obvious, then poorly educated Joe American will likely continue to support an obvious lie.

Why not take examples of what, according to the Bible, Jesus actually said and openly challenge what fanatical conservative charlatan religious con artists promote, by hitting them over the head with their own Bible? If we don't point out the obvious to poorly educated America, nothing is likely going to change anytime soon.

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» RE: what Jesus said (part 1) Posted by: vasumurti
» RE: what Jesus said (part 2) Posted by: vasumurti
» RE: what Paul said Posted by: vasumurti
Darby Revived Counter Reformation Writers' Views
Posted by: COinms on Nov 3, 2007 4:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Very good article, but I'd like to add an additional piece of information. The article states that..."The Armageddon theory started with the writings of a Scottish preacher, John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). His ideas then spread to America with publication in 1917 of the Scofield Reference Bible"
Even more disconcerting is that Darby revived the counter-reformation views of a Spanish Jesuit named Ribera. A basic concept of the Reformation was that Papacy as a system was the Antichrist and that much of the book of Revelation was having its fulfillment during the history of the church. In 1590 Ribera published a commentary on the Revelation, as a counter-interpretation to Protestantism, in which he applied all but the earliest chapters of Revelation to the end time and that Antichrist would be a single evil person (not a system) who would rule the world for three and a half years during the end time.
So, the Armeggedonites are actually pushing a doctrine designed to turn away scrutiny from the CC during the reformation, that has been put into the 'pressure cooker' of theology and politics and has morphed into this hideous end times view.
The funny thing is Hagee bashes the CC, but pushes their doctrine.

http://bible411.com/iwillcomeagain/iwcab.htm

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» OOPS Posted by: COinms
This Journalist has been takling these neo-Christians VERY seriously
Posted by: wawa on Nov 3, 2007 6:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before Emperor Constantine brought Christianity into the mainstream, all the early Church Fathers taught that Christians should not serve in the army but instead willingly suffer rather than inflict harm on any other.

St. Augustine was the first Church Father to consider the concept of a Just War.

Within 100 years after Constantine, the Empire required that all soldiers in the army must be baptized Christians and thus, the decline of Christianity began.

With the justification of war and violence supplied by Augustine’s Just War Theory, wrong became right. Nothing much has changed in two millennia, for in today’s Orwellian world politicians claim the way to peace is through war and that nuclear weapons provide protection.


I don’t care who wears the uniform, or how noble they believe their cause, war is the ultimate form of terrorism for any civilian caught in the crossfire of violence.


Eisenhower warned America not to bind our economy to the Industrial Military Complex. But, like most prophets, he was ignored.

In 313 AD, Emperor Constantine legitimized Christianity and thus, those who had been considered rebels and outlaws began to enjoy political power and prestige.


Jesus’ other name is The Prince of Peace, and with the marriage of church and state, his true teachings were reinterpreted.

The justification of warfare and the use of state sponsored violence corrupted what Christ modeled and taught. Jesus was always on about WAKE UP! The Divine already indwells you and all others. Christ taught that to follow him requires that one must love ones enemies; one must forgive those who hate, curse and revile them, without a thought of payback.

Christ lived a life that proved evil can be opposed without being mirrored, and that the cycle of a “tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye”, will never bring peace and justice.


The term Christianity was not coined until three decades after Christ walked the earth. Until the day of Paul, followers of Christ were called members of The Way; the way being what he taught!


The term 'Christian' was not even coined until the days of Paul, about 3 decades after Jesus walked the earth a man.


Jesus was NEVER A CHRISTIAN!

Jesus was a social, justice, radical revolutionary Palestinian devout Jewish road warrior who rose up and challenged the job security of the Temple authorities by teaching the people they did NOT need to pay the priests for ritual baths or sacrificing livestock to be OK with God; for God already LOVED them just as they were:

Sinners, poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Military Occupation.



What got Jesus crucified was disturbing the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces of his time, by teaching the subversive concept that Caesar only had power because God allowed it and that God preferred the humble sinner, the poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Occupation above the elite and arrogant.

2,000 years ago The Cross had NO symbolic religious meaning.



When Jesus said: "Pick up your cross and follow me,"



He was issuing a POLITICAL statement, for the main roads in Jerusalem were lined with crucified agitators, rebels, dissidents and any others who disturbed the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces.

Eileen Fleming, Reporter and Editor
Http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "Keep Hope Alive" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer "30 Minutes With Vanunu."

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Fancinating, isn't it....
Posted by: reval on Nov 3, 2007 6:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.... that all this talk about "end times" and the return of a vengeful Jesus all stems from a part of the brain that is still struggling to free itself from humankind's most primitive past.

Given that human beings already posess everything they need to be one of the most "advanced" species in this part of the cosmos, one must conclude that they have got to be the stupidest species of the entire animal kingdom to allow their furture to be shaped, even slightly, by this kind of mind rubbish.

Seek knowledge. Reject dogma, doctrine and superstition.

Rev. El Mundo
Pastor, WVCSR

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» RE: Fancinating, isn't it.... Posted by: civilized european
» RE: Fancinating, isn't it.... Posted by: PopRox80
God Hates Fags
Posted by: allevin on Nov 3, 2007 7:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church will be protesting at many more funerals.

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Terminal, crazy and mean . . .
Posted by: Quasar on Nov 3, 2007 7:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is great artists like Tony Kushner who give voice to the internalized anguish it is to be an American. His Angels in America send us a vision of ourselves and we cower in horror at seeing the portrait of our decrepit and debauched character. Unlike Dorian Gray we indulge even that, eventually. Like the insane who have nothing left to hang on to but their own insanity, we choose to stay because it is all we have.

So I refer you to the words of Belize who said it best:

"I hate America, Louis. I hate this country. It’s just big ideas, and stories, and people dying, and people like you. The white cracker who wrote the national anthem knew what he was doing. He set the word 'free' to a note so high nobody can reach it. That was deliberate. Nothing on earth sounds less like freedom to me. You come to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean. I live in America, Louis, that’s hard enough, I don’t have to love it. You do that. Everybody’s got to love something."

The rapture? Just charge it.

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911insidejob.net
Posted by: Bushguiltyof911 on Nov 3, 2007 7:45 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
it is interesting to understand the history of peoples' religious beliefs. But the truth is that all religion is based on myth and fairy tales.
Jesus Christ was one in a long line of pagan sun gods. These same storylines have been used throughout history to create New religions. Religion is one of the best ways to keep people in line by the powers to be.

here is the link to Zeitgeist, The Movie- http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331

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Yeah, it all sorta makes sense.
Posted by: PJAW on Nov 3, 2007 7:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who rail most vehemently against evolution, refuse to take part in it, and remain unevolved. Perhaps they will create their own extinction through their Armageddonist beliefs and pursuits. We can only hope that some of the more advanced members of our species survive to take part in the next "bloom" of humanity, when we once again become the dominant species, hopefully more enlightened than the current version has shown ourselves to be. Most likely, isolated pockets of "primitive" people will continue, pretty much unaffected by the collapse and disintegration of the "modern" world. Which ought to be surprisingly fast once the majority of us have died (for whatever reason). Ever seen an abandoned airfield, or roadway? Most of the evidence of us ("advanced civilization") having even been here will be pretty much gone in a couple hundred years as "nature" (other lifeforms from paramecium to pachyderms) reproduce without the repressive influence of dominant humankind.

Of course it would be nice if it doesn't play out like that, if we get our reproductive tendencies under control and begin to live in a more sustainable and just manner. We've really come a long way, and if we quit being such fucking self-indulgent morons and sat back for a brief spell (in cosmic terms) and put some effort into planning a sustainable future, we could go a lot further still. Perhaps we could even develop a practical means of interstellar travel and see some of what else is in the universe.

Nah, probably not. More likely, given the prevailing attitude of "us vs. them", we'll turn most of the planet into a smoking mass of flaming shit and have to start all over again. Assuming some of survive, and I think some will, though not in the model the Armageddonites envision.

Here's an example of the kind of thinking that's out there. I had a somewhat fundie Christian ask me recently if the earth has gained weight with the billions of people that now live here. You know, if we figure about 7.5 billion people at maybe 150 lbs each, we get a mass of humanity at around 567.5 million tons. It completely eluded her that our entire physical beings are composed of stuff that has been a part of the planet for millions of years.

But it raises an interesting question. Given that we're about 80% water, when we die and get recycled, will all that water flood the coastal cities? Just a thought.

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My only questions...
Posted by: worldwide65 on Nov 3, 2007 8:09 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How is it that Harry Potter Books are just fiction and there is no way the author is trying to influence anyone, but the Left Behind series is scary Armagedonite propoganda (my word, his meaning)? One of the authors has actually spoken out against the so called Armagedonites, and the books themselves which were interesting, point out that no man can no the time of the rapture or do anything to bring it forth or change it.
Haven't we always had Armagedonites of some sort?
Does know one else see this article as a suped up stretch of the imagination by a writer trying to desperately reach an audience through scare tactics?

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» RE: My only questions... Posted by: mike1997
» The world is truly... Posted by: worldwide65
» Star Trek... Posted by: Bbear41
» Depends Posted by: worldwide65
a fatal virus not everyone recovers from
Posted by: Lector on Nov 3, 2007 8:38 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The process of non-thinking, called “faith”, has always been the power structure’s greatest ally in controlling people of all religions. We should be living in the Age of Reason instead of remaining in the Childhood of Man. As for the Armageddonites whose truth and reason are based on religion and hard-wired into their brains, what do you do with these people? To reverse centuries of brainwashing seems improbable.

Pointless Navigation

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Rogue nation
Posted by: mike1997 on Nov 3, 2007 8:44 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Bush admin argues that Iran cannot be trusted with nuclear weapons because they are too far gone in religious fantasy land to be trusted not to use the bomb proactively. After reading this article I think the nation that should not be trusted to have nuclear weapons is the USA. We should in all good conscience immediately give up our entire nuclear arsenel to the UN. They can then dispose of them safely. We as a nation are no longer to be trusted with these weapons.

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» RE: Rogue nation Posted by: Angel1961
» So the U.N. could do what? Posted by: worldwide65
» So the U.N. could do what? Posted by: worldwide65
Protestant fundamentalist lunatics
Posted by: scorpioeagle1950 on Nov 3, 2007 8:47 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These people are very, very sick! They may look normal, they may appear sane, they may have lots of money, they may be handsome and pretty but they are stark raving mad. They are also the gravest threat to America and the world. Of course that Baptist gang of cretins who go around picketing the funerals of dead gay soldiers, waving their hateful signs and screaming filth at grieving families are an extreme example. As Ayn Rand said...."Ideas have consequences." We are beginning to see the consequences of this particular mental illness/perversion called Protestant Fundamentalism. Did i hear someone say..."what about Catholic Fundamentalism?" Uh...there really is no such thing other than a few scattered brain damaged souls. You see...Catholics for the most part are Christians....which means....they take Jesus Christ as their example whereas the Protestant Fundies much prefer the Hebrew War God of the Old Testament...you know, the One who instructs His people to kill, rape, destroy, enslave and annihilate. Don't believe me? Check Numbers 31. It's time we recognized these people for what they are; mental midgets and moral cretins. Pro-life? Don't make me laugh. The only life these people care about is the life in some OTHER WOMAN'S womb...once they've taken control of that it's business as usual....War on the poor and downtrodden, War on the drug users, War on the evolutionists, War on the Muslims, Death for criminals...guilty or not, God will sort them out, War on the Communists, War on the atheists, War on evolution, War on science in general...unless it's weapon's related, War on the pagans, War on the Catholics...ad nauseum. Wake up! Let these people know they will not have their way with America and the world! Don't associate with them! Don't let your children associate with them! ( if they were Nazis would it be any worse?) They don't wear funny uniforms, they don't give straight armed salutes and they don't goose step; don't be fooled nevertheless.

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» RE: Numbers 31- genocide Posted by: Angel1961
frankly
Posted by: frankly on Nov 3, 2007 9:05 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only valid alternative to religion is to accept, what we can perceive. No more, but also no less.

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» Nice... Posted by: worldwide65
» Perceiving the Spiritual Posted by: Jbuuty
yahweh the liar
Posted by: yvonnecarroll on Nov 3, 2007 9:16 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who pursue Armageddon with the principle aim of forcing God’s return will be disappointed because Yahweh lies. He has told them that they are favored and he will ensure that they endure, though the conflagration will truly take them too because he lies.

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where is the real media?
Posted by: davidg on Nov 3, 2007 9:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What I cannot understand is where the media is. Good investigative journalism holding these dangerous lunatics to account by enlightenment standards (as supported by the founding fathers) would marginalize this nonsense for the most part; but the broadcast culture is too chicken to do it. Sponsor chill?

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» RE: where is the real media? Posted by: Angel1961
Personal Armageddons - No Waiting
Posted by: Jersey Devil on Nov 3, 2007 10:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These masculine Christian Warriors don't need to wait for THE Armageddon - they can create their own by joining the US Army and volunteering for combat duty in Iraq! Why wait, go now and avoid the last minute rush on Final Judgement Day! Be the first in End Timer on your block to come home in a box.

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America's Armageddonites Push for More War
Posted by: flymulla on Nov 3, 2007 10:22 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sir
I think the writer has shortchanged himself with a little less in the article.
The holy war or the death by the fanatics as you call these is a phrase not understood by many. The holy book of Muslim defines the death of self or what we call blowing yourself is defined ,” When you find that the religion is in danger , you need to apply everything you have to save the religion, even if it means you have to die for the religion”.
Now there is no danger to the Islam or Muslim religion in the sense the Western ideas think. It is in every corner and flourishing. It is not in danger so there is no need of some one to blow himself for this religion. If they do this, they are doing this in the fanatics or that they have lost everything and they have nowhere to go. The suicide after the Tsunami, Katrina, Enron, the fires that scorched the many American leaving little of the victims, the stakeholders, then deciding to let go, is not martyrdom or dying for the religion. It is also loss of the complete sanity and there is no one to lean on.
That is the policy of the Muslim religion. Others have exaggerated in many forms in the Middle East and Iraq, Iran, France, Russia, UK, USA Pakistan, India, Indonesia etc.
The death is not clear to the bomb attached to the dying and state, “I am dying for the religion”. The religion condemns this. The death is at the last resort, not when the religion is growing fast and far after 9/11. Not many knew the Islam, Muslim before 9/11.
The cry of more wars is best if the democrats go to Iraq and see for themselves innocent deaths by the foreign troops

I thank you
Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD
P.O.Box 6044
Dar-Es-Salaam
Tanzania
East Africa

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fun d' mental
Posted by: particle61 on Nov 3, 2007 10:28 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
redstateupdate.net : frequently focusing on freaky fun d' mentalists, crazy christians and wacky catholics, see stories-
Militant Ministers Concoct Combat Christ to Tempt Teenagers-
General Sets Pace For Religious Bigotry-
US Military Enlists Koran-
Neighbors Wary of American Theocracy-
and many more in the fun d' mental archive
http://www.redstateupdate.net/fun-d-mental/fundmental.html

www.redsateupdate.net
funny, frightening, free

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hmph..
Posted by: meetmeineleusis on Nov 3, 2007 10:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I remember talking about these assholes in 2004, just to be called a nutjob. Funny how that turned out.

Honestly, if they want off the planet so bad, they don't need to wait for Jesus and his UFO to come. We can oblige them today, if they like.

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» RE: hmph.. Posted by: MeridaLady
After they wipe out the world......
Posted by: eosrk on Nov 3, 2007 11:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..................!

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Let's hope religions, all of them, are on their last legs
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 3, 2007 12:09 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's hope that religions, all of them, are on their last legs. What do you do
when you are describing the extinction of Homo Sapiens due to global warming
or asteroid impact and some insane person says: "God wouldn't let that happen"?
Somebody suggested saying: "Noah, how long can you tread water?" Flaw one
in that argument is that, in the legend, Noah survives. Flaw two is that we have
to do the entire thing ourselves. There is no god to warn us or tell us how to
survive. [It was really the ice age, not a flood, it was a cave, not a boat, and the
animals entered the cave because people were unable to keep them out. How
else would primitive people who had never seen ice describe an ice age?]

If religion is ended and replaced by science, democracies will have a much better
chance of reaching reasonable decisions on subjects like global warming. Note
that science is NOT a religion. Science is a method or a procedure or a process,
not a fixed set of beliefs. Student scientists repeat the major experiments of their
science and prove to themselves that the professor is right, no matter how much
they don't want to believe him or her.

If religion is not ended, we are much more likely to go extinct soon because
religion eliminates or limits the possibility of rational thought.

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» Religion is not ending. Posted by: Jbuuty
» Science? DDT or Eugenics? Posted by: sunspot
These people are insane
Posted by: magus65 on Nov 3, 2007 12:13 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These are obviously the same people who insist on placing graven images of the 10 commandments which forbid graven images in public spaces. Insane, retarded or just dumb.

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The bible is nonsense
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 3, 2007 12:19 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a sophomore undergraduate student in Physics, your homework may
include figuring out when the second coming would be required, assuming
that the bible was 100% true in the year zero. That is, when would the
bible be down to 50% true? The popular and professors' answer in 1965
was the year 500. The true answer: A friend of mine was born and
raised in Budapest, Hungary. As an adult, he came here and stayed.
After 25 years, he visited his home town of Budapest. He was unable to
communicate with his high school classmates because the Hungarian
language had changed so much. The correct answer is less than 25 years.
The first gospel was not written down until 50 years after the alleged
events and then in a different language. The people who told the story
were at about the same level of civilization as "wild Indians", I mean
Native Americans before Columbus got here. We have all played or seen
played the game called "Telephone" in which a story is passed down a line
of re-tellers. By the Sixth re-telling, the story has no resemblance to the
original. The gospel story had to have been re-told at least 6 times before
it was mis-translated the first time. [Note that whoever wrote it down the
first time was free to write whatever he wanted to. The storytellers were
illiterate and unable to check his written text by reading it. Besides that,
he wrote in Greek rather than Aramaic.] Conclusion: There is no truth
anywhere in the bible, and there never was.

ALL of the jurisdictions that were formerly in the jurisdiction of religion
have been taken over by Science. There is no longer a need to debate the
issue. Religion is an unfortunate side effect of a major and ongoing step in
evolution. [Not that evolution has a predetermined direction. We could
devolve, but we have to get over religion or go extinct. "God" will not
save us from the consequences of global warming or an asteroid impact
because there is no such critter as "god.".] Ethics and morality are
instinctive, not derived from religion. Look up "Sociobiology". The
origin of the Universe is the subject of Cosmology which is part of
astronomy which is part of the science of physics.
Religion is a SCAM. ANY religion, there are 10,000 to choose from.
ALL preachers, priests, imams, rabbis, iatolas, etc. belong in jail for "grand
theft bunko".

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» RE: The bible is nonsense Posted by: frankly
Does no sanity remain?
Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Nov 3, 2007 12:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Apparently, nobody on these forums really wants to stop it, or they would try with all their strength to save what they love, which asks the question if anyone here loves anything. All we do on these forums is explain everything away, hoping it all will just GO away - but it won't. Bush, Cheney and Hagee are insane and they will destroy the World unless they are stopped, but no one is able or willing to try. I guess it must be some sort of mass hypnosis, or mass despair. That's where I am,
in despair of humanity and life on Earth, even though for many years I had hopes. If Saving the Earth

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"Fundamentalist evangelicals" and "Dispensationalists" - thank you Alternet
Posted by: Jasonix on Nov 3, 2007 12:28 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's about time that AlterNet has finally labeled people correctly. These fundamentalist types are a minority among evangelical Christians, and are usually found among independent Baptists (various break-away sects that refuse to fellowship with mainstream Baptist denominations because they're all too "liberal"), some Pentecostal groups, and some Southern Baptists. Simply calling them "evangelicals" was insulting to the majority of Protestants, and actually gave them more legitimacy than they deserved. A lot of evangelicals are "warming up" to climate change (pardon the pun) and concerned about the growing poverty and inequality in the U.S. Let's work on labeling the extremists as the freaks they are - lunatics who aren't even in tune with their own religious tradition, let alone reality.

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» A minority..are they? Posted by: scorpioeagle1950
Religion may be curable by psychiatry
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Nov 3, 2007 12:29 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion is caused by any one or more of about half a dozen mental illnesses.
The truth about religion can be found in these books:

"The Neuropsychological bases of god beliefs" Dr. Michael A. Persinger MD,
psychiatrist 1987 "Religious people are just like my temporal lobe patients"

"The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bi-Cameral Mind" Julian
Jaynes Professor, Harvard University 1976 "Religious people are just like
schizophrenic patients"

"The Psychiatric Interview in Clinical Practice" Roger A. MacKinnon, M.D.,
Robert Michels, M.D. W. B. Saunders Co. 1971 "Religiosity is a common
symptom [of] schizophrenic patients"

"The God delusion" by Richard Dawkins. "Religion is caused by a kind of
computer virus that infects the living computer, the human brain."

"The Science of Good and Evil" by Michael Shermer, 2004 "Morality and Ethics
are now in the jurisdiction of Science and greatly improved thereby."

Many books in the new science called "Sociobiology": Morals and ethics are
instinctive and they evolved.

"God: The Failed Hypothesis" byVictor Stenger Scientific proof that god does
not exist.

"The God Part of the Brain" by Matthew Alper 1996. "The USA is anomolusly
religious because many early founder groups were religiously insane and fleeing
prosecution in Europe. Religion is a genetic disorder."

"The Accidental Mind" by David J. Linden, 2007 Belknap Press of Harvard
University Press. Religion is caused by the extreme klugeyness of the "designed"
by evolution brain. In particular, the narrative creation system cannot be turned
off. It generates false narratives that are believed by the generating person. This is
seen in experiments done in the laboratory. This book has the best explanation of
resistance to evolution: "There has also been an assumption that if one accepts the
idea that life developed without divine intervention, it necessarily follows that all
aspects of religious thought must be rejected. Those who take this line of
argument to extremes argue that when religious thought is rejected moral and
social codes will degenerate and "the law of the jungle" will be all that is left. It is
imagined by religious fundamentalists that those who do not share their particular
religious faith are incapable of leading moral lives." These suppositions are not
true many times over. Linden later mentions that the creationists [intelligent
design advocates] are exactly 180 degrees wrong rather than just a little wrong.
Being exactly wrong, they are unable to unlearn their error. See Sociobiology or
Sciobio.

"Origins of the Modern Mind" by Merlin Donald 1991 "So what did you expect
from a brain that is based on the Chimpanzee brain? Furthermore, the 4 Million
years it took to go from chimp brain to "human" brain is much too short for
Nature to get the bugs worked out."

"Manufacturing Belief" by Lewis Wolpert
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/05/15/lewis_wolpert/

"Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon", by Daniel Dennett
Let's do scientific research on religion and find out what causes it.

Other authors: Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens

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» Hitchens 'n' Harris..... Posted by: morticia
Scary FundMENTALISTS
Posted by: koolwoman on Nov 3, 2007 12:35 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fundamentalists are more frightening than terrorists. They are so certain that their way is the only way,and it is terrifying that they control the presidency. I used to be one of those. Fortunately, my life circumstsnces forced me to evolve ..Among other things, they teach that you should not consider any other ideas because that's just the devil trying to deceive you. My blood boils when I hear their belief that women should be subservient to their husbands. Women, let me tell you that when a husband is a weak, clueless person who is dragging the whole family down with him, then you have to leave in order to survive and raise your children. Don't stay in a sorry marriage for the childen's sake. You are not doing the children any favors. Teach your children that it is possible to succeed and then go do it. Onward and upward !!!!!!!!!!!

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» Please hurry! Posted by: Constitutionalist75
We can try but
Posted by: marid on Nov 3, 2007 12:39 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when habeus corpus died in 2006 and the gulags were established we all just shrugged. When I speak of it I am looked upon as a lunatic. No rights, torture, secret prisons, renditions, wire taps, designated protest areas, intrusion into every part of our lives, Democracy and Freedom are on their last legs here in Amerika.

Maybe we could declare these monsters terrorist organizations. They are busy building bombs constructed of the most deadly matter on Earth. LIES.

Instead of replying or posting your own dread here send an Email every day to one of our politicians in DC expressing your outrage and disgust with the status quo. EVERYDAY another one. Clog their E mail. Tie up their phones. Drop by their homes. Send snail mail letters. And try to remember to keep it up. I am just as bad as most but I have promised myself that I will at least try to be a thorn in their side.

But in AmeriKa we could be jailed, taken away, or worse. What have we to lose that we have not lost already?

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» easy answer - Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» Absolute truth Posted by: marid
Pastor Khelama
Posted by: Khelama2 on Nov 3, 2007 1:50 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Okay, enough already! I've been a minister for forty years. I believe in the rapture and armageddon as the Bible describes it. But this is a spiritual warfare that has to do with good and evil in Christian theology. I am a little sick and tired of all "evangelicals" and those who believe in Christianity as it was originally taught by Christ and his disciples being lumped together with modern day neocon extremists who use the church for political and financial purposes. God condemned this in the Bible and so did Jesus. Get to know the real Christ, what he really believed and what true followers believe and stop throwing us in the same soup pot. That is unfair and prejudicial and leads to wrongful persecution. None of the apostles ever held a political office and preached the man needs to change his life. Jesus said many would come in his name and cause hatred and division. Read before you judge us all the same. We're not.

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» RE: Pastor Khelama Posted by: Cooltruth
» just another religious moron. Posted by: civilized european
» WHAT IF YOU'RE WRONG?? Posted by: sunspot
» What Bible Are You Reading? Posted by: BlueNote56
Websites that Have screwed up USA
Posted by: MeridaLady on Nov 3, 2007 2:48 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I love the 1st one. Their goals have gotten us where we are today.

http://www.cc.org/voterguides.cfm


http://www.faithandvalues.us/


http://www.moralmajority.us/index.php?

option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=27


http://www.traditionalvalues.org/


http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-06-15

-christian-right-08_x.htm

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Fundamentalists are more frightening than terrorists.
Posted by: flymulla on Nov 3, 2007 3:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sir:
From one comments I read the above
I think the more you go into unto the religion, and that is what many have done in this case, you do not get the clear picture. Always the bottom line is," The less you know the fuzzier your brain or more cobwebs you have in the brain. You think in one direction". Let me explain this. I know of a person who has gone so much religious that he talks only religion. He is out of the society. He reads religion, etas religion, sleeps religion and has all sorts of books and leaflets in his house on religion.
Now do I call this man a terrorist? No. I do not think he is a threat to the human society. He has changed himself and is the fanatic. Asked of what is going around the world, he will tell you about all the religious beliefs and that all are dying slowly. When I switch on the TV, I see they are thriving more and more are turning to the religion. In fact I was amazed when Mr. Bush in his speech in the HERITAGE talked of God and very saintly at that too.
I would not call this fanatic or terrorist. I would call this opportunity to express what you want to say when many thing fail. Talk of a doctor or as west call this GP. He after many attempts on a patients to rescue a patients who is in involved in the auto (again I borrow the West lingo) tells the family," I have done all I can. Now I leave the matter in the hands of the God, Allah, Rama, Shiva, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Mother Mary, Buddha, why quibble about the name, the creator. Please now you pray for him."
Is this fanatic or tied too much to the religion or a terrorist? I do not think so. What he is saying is, Look I have tried all I can, I am sorry you had better go home and let the glucose and the blood that I sink the tube, work. I do nit find this odd. In fact, he is courageous to tell this indirectly the result now then later. Mr. Bush used the same method and many who want to use the terrorist in the writing to fill up their comments , the write up will not hesitate to e use I call this a buffer or the miss directly the fact fro the reality will use the terrorism as the stepping stone of fanatic. In one box if you find five or ten apples rotten you do not say, Look the box has rotten apples"
That exactly goes with the sorted ideas and cobwebs I the head or thinking.
I thank you
Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD
P.O.Box 6044
Dar-Es-Salaam
Tanzania
East Africa

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now that was fuzzy
Posted by: davidg on Nov 3, 2007 3:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is your point? These fundies a dangerous, mulla. Do what you can to educate them in reason. Revealed text? Bullshit.

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Is anyone else scared?
Posted by: outlander55 on Nov 3, 2007 3:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know that this scares the shit out of me. I wonder what the sane ones of us are going to do?
If the perpetuation of "end times" is brought about, nowhere will be safe. Those who don't die from Nuclear weapons, nerve gas or disease will have to try to survive in a world of ice storms and acid rain and will most likely not live very long. It will not be a pretty place. No Television, radio, or internet. No safe food or water. No life....

Good night and good luck...

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Read "Armageddonite" Prophecy and...
Posted by: meetmeineleusis on Nov 3, 2007 4:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You'll begin to understand the fetish/hard-on for Israel and it's Likudniks.

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Watch John Hagee
Posted by: drblack on Nov 3, 2007 4:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you get a chance watch John Hagee sometime. he is always talking about destroying the world to bring jesus back.
If you want to know why religious extremists in the US are more dangerous to Americans then any foreign religious extremists just watch this guy.
I do hope the USA can become the bright light in the scientific world it used to be...this can only happen when people stop being superstitious.
If people must be superstitious they should keep it to themselves and not interfere with public policy.
public policy should always be based on empirical facts...not out dated superstition.

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» RE: Watch John Hagee Posted by: Jbuuty
suicide bombing: 6 bil at a time
Posted by: davidg on Nov 3, 2007 4:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Xian fundies preach fear of suicide bombings...joke...these guys are suicide bombers, using nukes, 6 billion at time. Good old US scientific efficiency. Make sure they don't get their hands ANY CLOSER to them. The demented zealots in market places don't have the same long range planning....or power. Whew!

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so speak up
Posted by: davidg on Nov 3, 2007 4:54 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you don't want to be lumped in, Rev. Moderation and Peace and Harmony...find a soap box to inform the world. Condemn them very publicly. You have been scandously conspicuous by your absence. Get with the program...there is a clear a present danger.

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» RE: so speak up Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: point taken Posted by: davidg
» RE: point taken Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: point taken again Posted by: davidg
Not only are they crazy...
Posted by: photon's feather on Nov 3, 2007 4:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but they are gutless wonders.

If they are so intent on widening the theater of war, why is the military begging for recruits?

Just more chicken hawks.

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Terrorists of No Difference: Christian Extremists, Muslim Extremists
Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 3, 2007 7:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The USA is preoccupied about so-called Muslim extremists and terrorists coming out of the Middle East. However, you have your own Osama Bin Laden right in your own land. He is the policies and the believes of many a right-wing demagogue preacher. They would turn America into a religious fundamental state in a heartbeat. You think the Mullah's in Iran are bad, you would have the preachers in America making policy and law if only they could get away with it. No difference, Christian Extremists and Muslim Extremists. Terrorists in one way or another.

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Armeggedon, Eschatology and Arrogance
Posted by: Jbuuty on Nov 4, 2007 2:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It always fascinating the way any article on religion, and especially Christianity, brings out so much arrogance. Some shouting about the superiority of Christianity, and others calling all those who disagree with their disbelief in God, fools and idiots. Rational discussion goes out the window for both the 'revelationists' (belief in God's revelation) and the 'rationalists'.

On to some actual and real information. Christian theology, based on a biblical viewpoint, is inherently eschatological, speaking of the end times. This is not something that merely appears in the book of Revelation, or a few isolated passages. It colors the entire New Testament. Jesus is the eschatolgical figure who ushers in the new era, what he called the 'kingdom of God'. The church is meant to be the people who give their allegiance to this kingdom, and living as a demonstration of the love, peace, justice, morality, community that God desires. Unfortunately, for much (probably most) of church history morality has received adequate attention, but not the other areas; 'kingdom' has been understood as the church having power.

The Armeggedon crowd is, therefore, in some ways within mainstream Christian teaching - at least, as far as the emphasis on 'end times'. A close reading of the New Testament shows that the disciples and many others in Israel were expecting a violent 'Messiah-King' who would overthrow, and probably completely destroy, the Roman colonialists and lead the nation of Israel to domination and final victory. Jesus was different. He preached 'love your enemy'.

The Armeggedon crowd is again expecting the return of Jesus (a basic Christian teaching) in the same violent manner that the disciples and many others in Israel were waiting for. They are still holding on to a pre-Jesus view of the 'kingdom of the God', or end times. From a biblical point of view, they are deluded.

I know that many on Alternet do not hold much value in Christianity or religion in general. However, understanding is always more valuable than insults.

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What Me Worry?
Posted by: R.I.P. on Nov 4, 2007 3:51 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm waiting for the second coming of Michael Rennie, Patrica Neal , and Gort to set this mess straight. Klaatu barado nickto folks. cheers, Rip Tragle

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» RE: What Me Worry? Posted by: morticia
» RE: I certainly am worried. Posted by: davidg
Evangelical Belief: Jesus Supports the USA and Israel
Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 4, 2007 7:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus preached a doctrine of love and understanding, but, for those on the evangelical Right, they don't really see him as contradictory with the Old Testament. The reason being that Jesus was going to return, in a much different form, to bring to heaven those who were righteous and lived the right way. In this different form, he would be as in the Book of Revelation describes things. Which is very rough indeed. As for Jews and Israel, they don't accept Jesus as the Messiah anyway, they still believe the end times are coming and along with that, the Real Messiah. From this, the Religious Right and the Israeli's have teemed up with a joint understanding on this. They believe the USA and Israel are sided with Jesus and its the Muslims and others who have sided with Satan. It is to be a war of destruction that will ensue, and with Jesus coming down to take the American's and Israeli's up to heaven. Everyone else gets the fire.

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Come the Rapture
Posted by: WyrdSister on Nov 4, 2007 8:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
we will have the Earth to ourselves.

And by "we" I mean pagans. Not just those who call themselves Pagans, but those whom Christianity considers pagans, which is any other religion save for the Big Three monotheistic religions.

I say So Be It! Bring it on! It is not, you know, the End of the World, just the End of the World as Christians know it.

Personally, I hope it comes soon so we rid ourselves of those who are blinded and have the chance to save the Earth from Her demise.

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» RE: Come the Rapture... Posted by: morticia
point taken
Posted by: davidg on Nov 4, 2007 8:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
True, that individual may not be tarred with the same brush. My frustration was notable. Thanks. Your point is well taken. However, is there not a notable silence from "mainstream moderates?" OR is it the media? The Pope condemns Harry Potter, but unless I've missed it, the "Left Behind" series has escaped the Papal third eye. Just as one example.

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End Time Theology...The Bad Guys...
Posted by: picket on Nov 4, 2007 9:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
used to be the Russians and Chinese who until most recently would usher in Armageddon. Now it is the Muslims?????

Whatever is convenient for the FALSE PROPHETS or PROFIT!! Hagee does not believe that the Israel's will be raptured UNLESS they become Christian. Most Jews have no intention of doing so as they are waiting for the Jewish Messiah....and it is NOT Jesus, that they believe in so it is a PACT that is used to deceive the "sheep" the taxpayers of the USA.

Off hand I do not know the percentage of atheists in the world but the majority of the billions of inhabitants hold a religious view if some kind ...WARS...will do nothing to change an ideology. Many in the World, including Americans, are willing to KILL other humans who do not share their particular Faith.

Keeping politics and religion separate is a great idea but almost impossible.

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The "muscular" Jesus....
Posted by: morticia on Nov 4, 2007 9:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a July, 2004 NYT piece, Nicholas Kristof wrote about the Armageddon mentality as it's presented in the grotesquely bestselling LEFT BEHIND series by Jenkins and LaHaye. He writes:

"In 'Glorious Appearing,' Jesus merely speaks and the bodies of the enemy are ripped open. Christians have to drive carefully to avoid "hitting splayed and filleted bodies of men and women and horses."

'The riders not thrown,' the novel continues, 'leaped from their horses and tried to control them with the reins, but even as they struggled, their own flesh dissolved, their eyes melted and their tongues disintegrated. . . . Seconds later the same plague afflicted the horses, their flesh and eyes and tongues melting away, leaving grotesque skeletons standing, before they, too, rattled to the pavement.'

One might have thought that Jesus would be more of an animal lover."

Indeed. And why the rough stuff? Kristof adds:

"This portrayal of a bloody Second Coming reflects a shift in American portrayals of Jesus, from a gentle Mister Rogers figure to a martial messiah presiding over a sea of blood. Militant Christianity rises to confront Militant Islam."

This is what's happening, folks: People are literally picturing all this in terms of Battling Gods. It’s Jehovah vs. Allah, our God against their God, colossal invisible supernatural entities up there in the sky with glistening oiled chests and shimmering flowing robes, crowns, swords, scimitars, flinging badmouth insults and challenges at each other—Axis of Evil! Great Satan!—like Gorgeous George and Hulk Hogan before the Round of the Century while the crowd roars itself into a brute frenzy. And the vast opposing armies of believers are their instruments of combat.

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is god really that impotent?
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Nov 4, 2007 10:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i don't understand why these people who fervently believe in the omniscience and ultimate power of God think for a second that God needs their help in implementing His plan...what unbridled arrogance! if God is what they says He is than He certainly doesn't need them...

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Tax Them!!!
Posted by: militaryhater on Nov 4, 2007 10:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is time to get rid of 'nonprofits' period and their tax free lifestyle. TAX THEM AND SEE HOW they get their way! Make them pay..the rich...let's take the money back.

No more NONPROFITS..get rid of all of them. They make money and they get rich...the Religious churches should pay too as they are businesses and lobbyists. TAX them and watch the power dwindle.

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Of course,
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Nov 4, 2007 10:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
once the fighting actually starts, the Armageddonists will be nowhere to be found.
Why are the liberal leaders so fucking afraid of these pussies?

plur

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started during the Reagan regime
Posted by: deang on Nov 4, 2007 1:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They began trying to bring it about during the Reagan years. Reagan was a believer in this stuff himself, hence the largest "peacetime" military buildup in history. So I guess you Reagan-worshippers out there (and recent polls indicate there are millions of you) don't see a problem with any of this.

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What if it's a different game?
Posted by: sunspot on Nov 4, 2007 4:16 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So here's my question: What if the military industrialists are just playing the Christians in order to get them to support unending war -- just for the profits generated? What if they don't believe any of that Christian crap at the Pentagon, but just want to keep the greenbacks flowing in their direction? Maybe the Christians are being played like fiddles? Just as WMD was code for OIL, and very few admit that these wars are about resources, especially oil, maybe these wars aren't really about the Rapture either. Maybe it's just a ploy to corner the market on resources & the Christians will play along so long as the End Times card is played.

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A Mass Conversion...
Posted by: BrianOfNairobi on Nov 4, 2007 4:23 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These fundamentalists who follow their ministers and preachers of war, death, and destruction are, in reality, converts en masse to the doctrines of that other guy... the Antichrist.

Their brand of "Christianity" is utterly alien to the words of Jesus Christ. It is no coincidence that these Luciferians (for that is what they are) rely, heavily, on the Old Testament and The Book of Revelation to justify their demonic and relentless desire for war and death. They have no understanding about that basic tenet of true Christianity... forgiveness. They care not for those less fortunate than themselves. They hate their enemies.

The final book of the New Testament, Revelation, is regarded by many scholars as a rogue text that actually stands in opposition to the Gospels. No-one knows why this book was included. The Messiah in Revelation is like the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament... a crazed warrior full of vengeance and hate for all who fail to meet his hypocritical standards. Perhaps this text is false by design in order to weed out those who in reality have no love or compassion for humanity or the earth. Perhaps those who feverishly adhere to this book of death are the ones to be Judged... by their own master, Lucifer, for Jesus says he comes NOT to judge but to save.

If so, let the Rapture begin... and good riddance to bad rubbish.

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Religion Turns Evil When "The One True Way" Is the Only Way
Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 4, 2007 5:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Christianity is truly to be a force for progress, it must evolve to understand that besides Jesus, we have had Mohammed, Buddha, Krishna, and quite a few others. In other words, the idea of "the one true way" is poppycock. It's the Dalai Lama who has said that all real religions are a force for progress when they are promoting peace and mutual understanding. At this level, they all can be respected. When they turn rabid, they are a problem. And, it is that rabidness that displays itself in the missionaries zeal. The need to "convert," to accept a different god. If this were necessary, than it would seem that God was a politician doesn't it. And, if God were a politician, how could she be God?

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More than 655,000 dead in Iraq! "Christians" are dangerouse when frightened
Posted by: jobeob on Nov 4, 2007 6:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hello, All:

I have marched in Washington twice this year. The first time was in January the later in September. As a Christian and a conscientious objector I have noticed that it is not the religion of Islam that has been hijacked but Christianity. In the march in January I carried a sign that said "Don't confuse the United States with the Kingdom of God". In the march in September I carried a sign that read "More than 655,000 dead in Iraq! "Christian" are dangerous when frightened! Both signs drew puzzled looks but there were many there that knew exactly what I meant. This administration and it's war can not proceed without the support of Christians who have been terrified by threats of mushroom clouds and "Islamofacisiam" (whatever that is). Some Christians have started to wake up to the fact that they have been duped. It is a two edged sword though. As soon Christian are no longer of use to the fascist state now forming in this country They/we will be marginalized, persecuted and eventually slain as the book of Revelation says. There is mention of a remnant being protected but there is no mentioned of the fabled rapture. Christians must realize that their only strength is in their care and love for one another and all men made in God's image and not in military or political power.

Job

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They must be just iching to see the...
Posted by: TT25 on Nov 4, 2007 8:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FIREWORKS!

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Fauxtians Yes, Christians No!
Posted by: williameon on Nov 5, 2007 4:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Things are so bad that these ignorant poor Bass-turds want to Destroy the World.
They have nothing left
They have bought a Pie In The Sky and now have to eat it.
The Big Lie!
That they will go to Heaven for destroying the Garden.
Millionaire Preachers spew BU__! SH__! 24x7x365
While bashing you over the head with their Golden Crucifixes.
Send me money, pay no taxes!
Pointing there fingers into their little Black Book!
Yes, even crass religion has been cooped by the Reptilians.
The Reptilians have programmed them perfectly
All the money in the world and nothing better to do then to program you.
The ‘Bored Again’ will march to death in front of the Neo-“ZIO-NAZI”-Con War Machine.
Some alliance.
Sheep and Wolves.
Look who is getting fed to the Lions.
Everyone must be sent to slaughter.
It makes no difference who they are.
Friend or foe?
The Bones of the innocent must pave The Fauxtians way into Heaven.
Protect those fetuses so we can blow them up in a phony War!
No Condoms
No Health care
Three jobs
In Debt
Now that’s The Shrubs idea of the American Dream
And they buy it!
Will the spark of divinity ever shine in them again?
I think it will.
That even they someday will see the light.
They have lost their souls to endless conditioning and mindless propaganda.
Even they might wake up and figure out that:
There are more important things to do then try to destroy our neighbor and ourselves.
What ever happened to love thy brother?
The Prince of Peace set the example.
Emulate him.
There is nothing Christ like about BUSH!
He is the,
Anti-Christ.
A Blasphemer!
WW III
With whom and for what?
Oil that is!
Black gold!
Tex-ass Tea!
This is a technology war fought by Oil Men to
Perpetuate their dirty fossil fuel franchise beyond it's natural demise.

Patience, Peace, Brotherly Love, Helpfulness, True Compassion and Generosity.
These are the fruits of the Spirit.
Eat of them often.

The Great Flood is upon us.
It will wipe the slate clean.
Sink or Swim?
The choice is yours.
Stop playing Halliburton War Games in the sand.
The WAR is over,
And we lost!
Just like we always do.
The little man fights the wars and
The little man loses them
ALL!
Let those pompous A-Holes lead the charge and good riddance.
Could life ever be so sweet?
That they would die in a phony war.
It would be over in a minute.
With Dead Eye Dick at the helm!
Free at last!
Free at last!

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ARe George W. Bush and Dick Cheney Armageddonites ?
Posted by: US Citizen on Nov 5, 2007 5:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've often wondered about Bush and Cheney's religion. There used to be stories that George W. Bush's own church preached these nut case prophecies of the Rapture, etc. I don't know anything about Cheney's religious background. Are Cheney and Bush just using these evangelicals to support their fascist agenda or are they an actual part of the Armageddonite movement themselves? Armageddonites are extremely scary especially when they talk about bombing Iran.

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» maybe yes and maybe no Posted by: sunspot
» RE: maybe yes and maybe no Posted by: morticia
This movement constitutes about 33%
Posted by: steven w on Nov 5, 2007 9:21 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
of the entire population of evengelicals, and the others are having a heck of a time distancing themselves from them. Believing what they believe- that's O.K. by me, but thinking that God asked for their help to bring this all about is ludicrous! When God wants to end the world, he'll end the world, but nowhere in the Bible does HE recruit our help. They are as sick and as dangerous as that crazy Muslim faction that originated from Saudi Arabia.

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John Hagee is a sweaty creep
Posted by: DesertStone on Nov 5, 2007 10:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I heard John Hagee on Glenn Beck making the argument that the Muslim version of the messiah was practically identical to the Christian anti Christ. In other words he was referring to Muslims as satanic devil worshippers. I also caught a glimpse of his church on CNNs God’s Warriors program; it amounted to hundreds of Americans waving Israeli flags chanting like lunatics on behalf of Israel.

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CALL YOUR REPRESENTATIVE NOW!
Posted by: higginslads on Nov 6, 2007 1:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A sitting member of Congress is introducing a measure to impeach the vice president of the United States and the story isn't visible on Alternet. This should be the leading story on a website that bills itself as an "alternative" to the mainstream. Some alternative! More like left gatekeeper.

For those who are interested in doing something constructive about our current state of affairs, please call your representative and urge them to support Mr. Kucinich's bill. The Capitol switchboard is:

1-800-828-0498
1-800-862-5530
1-800-833-6354

Just ask the operator for your representative's office. If you don't know it, tell her/him where you live and she/he will look it up. Once transferred to your representative's office, politely tell the person who answers the phone that you urge your representative to support Kucinich's articles of impeachment against the vice president. You will probably be asked for your name and address.

I just did this. It's the first time I had ever called my representative (Rodney Frelinghuysen in NJ). It was easy and I felt better after doing it.

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