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Building God's (Christian) Army
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Months earlier, Hall charges, he had been publicly berated by a staff sergeant for not agreeing to join in a Thanksgiving Day prayer.
On Sept. 17, the soldier and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) filed suit against Army Maj. Freddy Welborn and US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, charging violations of Hall's constitutional rights, including being forced to submit to a religious test to qualify as a soldier.
The MRFF plans more lawsuits in coming weeks, says Michael "Mikey" Weinstein, who founded the military watchdog group in 2005. The aim is "to show there is a pattern and practice of constitutionally impermissible promotions of religious beliefs within the Department of Defense."
For Mr. Weinstein -- a former Air Force judge advocate and assistant counsel in the Reagan White House -- more is involved than isolated cases of discrimination. He charges that several incidents in recent years -- and more than 5,000 complaints his group has received from active-duty and retired military personnel -- point to a growing willingness inside the military to support a particular brand of Christianity and to permit improper evangelizing in the ranks. More than 95 percent of those complaints come from other Christians, he says.
Others agree on the need for the watchdog group, but question the conspiratorial view and some of its tactics. They say dealing with religious issues is a complex matter, and the military is trying to address them appropriately.
At the Defense Department, spokeswoman Cynthia Smith says the DOD doesn't comment on litigation, but "places a high value on the rights of members of the Armed Forces to observe the tenets of their respective religions."
Since the Revolutionary War, the armed services have tried to ensure that soldiers can practice their faiths, and that chaplains serve not only those of their own sect but all who may need pastoral care. The services have also sought to adhere to the First Amendment prohibition of any government "establishment of religion."
In the 1990s, for instance, the Air Force's Little Blue Book of core values highlighted religious tolerance, emphasizing that military professionals "must not take it upon themselves to change or coercively influence the religious views of subordinates."
Weinstein insists, however, that there are improper actions at high levels that not only infringe on soldiers' rights but, at a very dangerous time, also send the wrong message to people in the Middle East that those in the US military see themselves engaged in Christian warfare.
For example, he says, Lt. Gen. William Boykin, who gave speeches at churches while in uniform that disparaged Islam and defined the war on terror in fundamentalist, "end times" terms, was not fired but promoted. (Speaking of a Muslim warlord he had pursued, Lt. Gen. Boykin said, "I knew my God was a real God and his was an idol." And our enemies "will only be defeated if we come against them in the name of Jesus.")
"There's an eschatologically obsessed version of Christianity that ... is trying to make American foreign and domestic policy conterminous with their biblical worldview," Weinstein charges. And "there's improper pressure within the military command structure to make members join them."
The most serious allegations from the field cannot be corroborated for this article. A few will be raised in the lawsuits, but some incidents have been documented.
Perhaps the most visible situation -- and the one that set Weinstein off on his mission -- involved the evangelizing of cadets on the part of some faculty and staff at the Air Force Academy (AFA) in Colorado Springs, Colo., which came to light in 2004. Congress held hearings, DOD conducted an investigation, and the head of the academy acknowledged significant problems. Weinstein's cadet son experienced the pressures as a Jew.
Col. David Antoon (ret.), another alumnus of the AFA and now a 747 commercial pilot, says his heart was broken when he took his son, Ryan, to an orientation at the academy in the spring of 2004. An overt evangelistic approach during part of the orientation so upset them, he says, that they decided his son would reject the treasured appointment and instead go to Ohio State University.
"My son had dreamed of doing what I had done, but it was no longer the institution I went to," Colonel Antoon says, his voice cracking with emotion.
The Air Force set about reaffirming basic principles in religion guidelines, as a basis for widespread training, but a pushback by Evangelicals later led to Congress setting them aside until hearings could be held. The hearings have not taken place.
In 2006, MRFF learned of a video produced by Christian Embassy, a group that conducts Bible studies at the Pentagon and seeks to evangelize within the armed services. Aimed at fundraising for the group, the video was improperly taped in the Pentagon and involved endorsements by Army and Air Force generals in uniform.
MRFF's public alert spurred a DOD investigation. In a report critical of the senior officers, the Inspector General said they gave the appearance of speaking for the military. One general defended his role by saying "Christian Embassy had become a quasi-federal entity."
The report noted that Maj. Gen. Paul Sutton participated while he served as chief of the US Office of Defense Cooperation in Turkey, a largely Muslim nation whose military takes pride in protecting the country's secular status. After a Turkish newspaper wrote about the video as promoting a "fundamentalist sect," General Sutton was called in and questioned by members of the Turkish General Staff.
"They had to give him a lesson in the separation of church and state," Weinstein says. "Imagine the propaganda bonanza! And how this upset Muslims."
The DOD report on the video recommended "appropriate corrective action" be taken against the officers. According to Army spokesman Paul Boyce, "The Army has not yet completed any planned actions associated with the Christian Embassy review."
MRFF claims a victory in the case of the evangelical group Operation Stand Up. Earlier this year, OSU was preparing to send "freedom packages" to soldiers in Iraq as part of an Army program. Along with socks and snacks, the packages included proselytizing materials in English and Arabic, and the apocalyptic video game, "Left Behind: Eternal Forces." In it, Christians carry on warfare against people of other faiths.
After the plans were made public, the Pentagon announced in August that the materials would not be mailed. OSU did not respond to a request for comment.
Weinstein -- an intense, voluble attorney who prizes blunt, no-holds-barred language -- has struck more than one nerve with his bird-dogging. He says numerous threats have been made on his life. Last week, the front window of his house was shot out for the second time. After the lawsuit was filed, talk of "fragging" (killing) Specialist Hall surfaced on some military blogs. The Army is investigating.
Others sympathetic to Weinstein's concerns say some tactics undermine his efforts, and they question aims.
"He's uncovered some very disturbing stuff that shouldn't be going on in the armed forces," says Marc Stern, a religious liberty expert at American Jewish Congress. "But it's important that you not go too far." Mr. Stern disagrees, for instance, with Weinstein's stance on the Air Force guidelines, such as preventing military supervisors from ever speaking of religion to people under their command.
"He did a disservice to his and our cause by taking a position beyond what the law requires, and in fact may intrude on people's rights," Stern adds.
Several conservative Christian ministries publicly proclaim an evangelistic aim "to transform the nations of the world through the militaries of the world," and they are active at US military installations in many countries. (See www.militaryministry.org or militarymissionsnetwork.org.)
MRFF sees that as a harbinger of a volunteer military falling under the sway of increasing numbers of Christian soldiers. Others see a military leadership, with the exception of a few generals here or there, well aware of its constitutional responsibilities, but challenged by the demands of training on these issues in a military of millions. A group such as MRFF can provide a crucial service, they say, if it is willing to work with the military.
Right now, Weinstein is counting on a set of lawsuits to bring serious issues to the fore. The question is whether those suits will go beyond individual cases of discrimination to prove an unconstitutional pattern within the armed forces.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: vox persona on Oct 19, 2007 12:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The fundies are in charge now
Posted by: Axiom69
» Look Deeper. Look at history.
Posted by: Rolomax
» www.votenic.com
Posted by: votenic
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Gentrification Through Natural Selection on Oct 19, 2007 12:52 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, most recruits are trailer/ghetto/barrio/ trash. Although troops have a lack of brain power, often seen in the lower classes, religion was not the prevailing attitude among the rifle jockeys.
Then 1LT L.-Now CPT L. US Army
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» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: Gentrification Through Natural Selection
» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: Axiom69
» Why don't you ask him...
Posted by: sausage
» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: phatkhat
» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: leafsong1
» The target is officers, not troops
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: The target is officers, not troops
Posted by: phatkhat
» RE: The target is officers, not troops
Posted by: Timba
» RE: The target is officers, not troops
Posted by: scheherezade
» Maybe you should resign your commission!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Maybe you should resign your commission!
Posted by: Gentrification Through Natural Selection
» RE: Maybe you should resign your commission!
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Maybe you should resign your commission!
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Maybe you should resign your commission!
Posted by: Axiom69
» Hate to correct a mistake but...
Posted by: Axiom69
» Hate to correct a mistake but...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Maybe you should resign your commission!
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Maybe you should resign your commission!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Maybe you should resign your commission!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: Axiom69
» Great comment! (elitist liberals are clueless about the military).
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» I'll be glad to pass this on
Posted by: worldwide65
» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lector on Oct 19, 2007 12:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is one of the essential problems of all religions. My god can beat up your god.
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» RE: Childhood of Man continues
Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: Childhood of Man continues
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Childhood of Man continues
Posted by: bsdone
» RE: Childhood of Man continues
Posted by: jbur816
» RE: Childhood of Man continues
Posted by: werewolf
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Posted by: worldwide65 on Oct 19, 2007 1:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-- involved the evangelizing of cadets on the part of some faculty and staff at the Air Force Academy (AFA) in Colorado Springs, Colo., which came to light in 2004. Congress held hearings, DOD conducted an investigation, and the head of the academy acknowledged significant problems. --
The Air Force actually started this investigation through the IG. It was not first brought up through Congress. Officers involved were removed and reprimanded.
-- The most serious allegations from the field cannot be corroborated for this article. A few will be raised in the lawsuits, but some incidents have been documented.
It is not that difficult to corroborate these allegations. The writer can find out about cases like this by filing a request from the Air Force. If the case is under investigation you will not get an answer until the investigation is done, but they will tell you whether an investigation is taking place, within privacy act restrictions.
I would like to see any proof of a conspiracy in this regard. There will always be individuals that try to influence another’s religious beliefs, but there are those of every faith. During the Gulf War there was a cultural awareness center at Khobar Towers. They were there to teach Islamic custom to military members, but the discussion was more often than not about religious belief. In my military time, I have been approached by atheist and Wiccans who talked to me about their religion or lack of.. I took it for what it was; sharing their beliefs with someone they trusted.
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» RE: Show me proof
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Show me proof
Posted by: donl51
» RE: Show me proof
Posted by: werewolf
» For Sushi and Don -- RE: Show me proof
Posted by: worldwide65
» www.votenic.com
Posted by: votenic
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rocketman on Oct 19, 2007 3:01 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Evangelicals are probably the greatest threat to his country..no doubt! But given the severity of the issues facing the military I doubt that religious rights is one of them.
As for military academy, I suspect the rape is an issue far surpassing the religious freedoms issue in importance and occurance. So I'm not sure this is nothing more than a few who got their freedoms trampled by a few!
Considering that we ARE a CHRISTIAN nation (80% or so) Wh would muslim countries think our attack is anything else but Christian agains Muslims! After all, that is the basis for the years of attacks on the west!
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» WRONG!
Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: bsdone
» DOLLARIA
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: Lauren
» Excellent Comment!!!
Posted by: rjgwood
» All so-called Christians are Materialists!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: All so-called Christians are Materialists!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: All so-called Christians are Materialists!
Posted by: Lauren
» Christmas has not "lost its meaning."
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Christmas has not "lost its meaning."
Posted by: jroth420
» RE: Christmas has not "lost its meaning."
Posted by: Ellie F.
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: jroth420
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: rocketman
» LIke HELL we are a Christian nation!
Posted by: wireup
» RE: LIke HELL we are a Christian nation!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: LIke HELL we are a Christian nation!
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: solrev
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: You are almost there
Posted by: solrev
» RE: You are almost there
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: solrev
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: One nation under Bush
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: Nidieux on Oct 19, 2007 3:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Nidieux
Posted by: worldwide65
» RE: Nidieux
Posted by: Nidieux
» RE: Nidieux
Posted by: worldwide65
» RE: Nidieux
Posted by: bsdone
» Forced Into Chapel
Posted by: Nidieux
» RE: Forced Into Chapel
Posted by: Lauren
» Please! Convenient "Back Door"
Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: Please! Convenient "Back Door"
Posted by: worldwide65
» RE: Please! Convenient "Back Door"
Posted by: Nidieux
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Tom Degan on Oct 19, 2007 3:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called sons [and daughetrs] of God.
Jesus Christ
The Sermon on the Mount
From the Gospel According to Matthew
That's all the troops need to know.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
Christ vs Conservatism: A Serious Conflict
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» RE: Christ vs. Conservatism: A Serious Conflict
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Christ vs. Conservatism: A Serious Conflict
Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Sermon on the Mt. for the 21st Century Christ vs. Conservatism: A Serious Conflict
Posted by: wawa
» The SOTM is slave mentality.
Posted by: LMNOP
» Why be meek - and masochistic?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: The SOTM is slave mentality.
Posted by: Ellie F.
» RE: The SOTM is slave mentality.
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: The SOTM is slave mentality.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Christ vs. Conservatism: A Serious Conflict-THANKS TOM DEGAN
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Christ vs. Conservatism: A Serious Conflict-THANKS TOM DEGAN
Posted by: Tom Degan
» Like Kurt Vonnegut said
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Like Kurt Vonnegut said
Posted by: irenicus
» RE: Like Kurt Vonnegut said
Posted by: Bluecat464
» Neo Conservative Sermon on the Mount
Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: Neo Conservative Sermon on the Mount
Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Neo Conservative Sermon on the Mount
Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: Neo Conservative Sermon on the Mount
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Neo Conservative Sermon on the Mount
Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: Christ vs. Conservatism: A Serious Conflict
Posted by: babs
» RE: Oh bless this
Posted by: donl51
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Tom Degan on Oct 19, 2007 3:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Cheers!
Tom Degan
Jesus
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» www.votenic.com
Posted by: votenic
» RE: Here is the actual link (sorry 'bout that!):
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
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Posted by: drricklippin on Oct 19, 2007 4:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We in the US are increasingly a multicultural and multi-religious nation which MUST be recognized by all leaders-especially in our military.
I use the phrase God is "at" your side not "on" your side- the latter actually causing warfare.
If this global war on terrorism is framed as Christianity verses Islam we are in very deep trouble.
THANK YOU MIKEY WEINSTEIN! FOR FOUNDING MRFF
Win those lawsuits! Don't give up. I stand with you!
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
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» RE: FREEDOM OF RELIGION- DEFEND IT! HELP WEINSTEIN!
Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: FREEDOM OF RELIGION- DEFEND IT! HELP WEINSTEIN!
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: FREEDOM OF RELIGION- DEFEND IT! HELP WEINSTEIN!
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
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Posted by: peacelf on Oct 19, 2007 5:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Constantinian Christians follow the imperialist "Christ" created by the Roman emperor Constantine. They are a nihilistic, greedy, self-serving bastardization of the Jesus tradition. Their focus on the "end of times" when 'all God's children will be taken to heaven' gives them license to kill in the name of God.
Constantinian Christians commit what Bishop John Shelby Spong calls the "sins of the scripture." They use the Bible to promote their ends, the same as Constantine. They justify evil in the name of Jesus.
As I've said before in other Alternet comments, the only way to challenge their power is to understand their beliefs and provide scriptural evidence of their misinterpretations. In other words, Constantinian Christians need to be de-programmed. Several Christian scholars--including the ones I mentioned-- are doing that very thing in their books.
Secular atheists, though, will have a difficult time convincing a Constantinian Christian to give up his beliefs. To Constantinian Christians, atheists are their worse enemies.
(And, yes, I attend a Southern Baptist Church every Sunday. I'm a subversive teacher of truth, justice and compassion for others.)
Peace
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» Just FYI
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Just FYI
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Just FYI
Posted by: Ellie F.
» RE: Jesus with a M16?
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Jesus with a M16?
Posted by: bsdone
» RE: Jesus was not a Jew
Posted by: solrev
» Constantine's domestic vs. international politics
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: Constantine's "tolerance"?
Posted by: peacelf
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wawa on Oct 19, 2007 5:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus was a social justice radical revolutionary Palestinian devout Jewish Road Warrior who challenged the job security of the Temple Priests by teaching the people they did NOT need to pay them for ritual baths and sacrificing livestock to be OK with God, for God LOVED them just as they were; sinners, outcasts, lepers, widows, orphans, prisoners ALL enduring under Roman Occupation.
2,000 years ago the Cross had NO religious symbolism-the roads to Jerusalem were lined with rebels and dissidents who were crucified for disturbing the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces.
The term Christian was not coined until 3 decades AFTER Christ walked the earth. His early followers were called members of THE WAY; the way being what he taught:
You must forgive to be forgiven, love and do good towards your enemies, don't judge others and it is the Peacemakers who are God's children.
Before Emperor Constantine brought Christianity into the mainstream, all the early Church Fathers taught that Christians should not serve in the army but instead willingly suffer rather than inflict harm on any other. St. Augustine was the first Church Father to consider the concept of a Just War. Within 100 years after Constantine, the Empire required that all soldiers in the army must be baptized Christians and thus, the decline of Christianity began.
In 313 AD, Emperor Constantine legitimized Christianity and thus, those who had been considered rebels and outlaws began to enjoy political power and prestige.
Jesus’ other name is The Prince of Peace, and with the marriage of church and state, his true teachings were reinterpreted. The justification of warfare and the use of state sponsored violence corrupted what Christ modeled and taught.
Jesus was always on about WAKE UP! The Divine already indwells you and all others.
With the justification of war and violence supplied by Augustine’s Just War Theory, wrong became right. Nothing much has changed in two millennia, for in today’s Orwellian world politicians claim the way to peace is through war and that nuclear weapons provide protection.
e
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
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» RE: CHRIST was NO Christian and neither are those
Posted by: StrayCat
» RE: CHRIST was NO Christian and neither are those
Posted by: bsdone
» You're not that WIDE AWAKE!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: You're not that WIDE AWAKE!
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: intelligence is overated
Posted by: solrev
» Not in America. It's mocked and despised. Ask any respected environmental scientist
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Not in America. It's mocked and despised. Ask any respected environmental scientist
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: You're not that WIDE AWAKE!
Posted by: Bluecat464
Comments are closed-
Posted by: otto on Oct 19, 2007 6:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: otto
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: otto
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: outlander55 on Oct 19, 2007 6:55 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If it all comes down to it, the Jesus Freaks will perpetuate nuclear war to create their own End Times. Then where will we be? DEAD!!!
WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!!!
Good night and good luck....
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» RE: This is some scary stuff
Posted by: carrdmv
» RE: This is some scary stuff
Posted by: outlander55
» RE: This is some scary stuff
Posted by: worldwide65
» RE: This is some scary stuff
Posted by: outlander55
» And you're an enabler of haters on steroids.
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: And you're an enabler...
Posted by: Lauren
» Better off dead than...
Posted by: Cathyc
» It seems to me RE: This is some scary stuff
Posted by: worldwide65
» RE: This is some scary stuff
Posted by: jeanna
» RE: This is some scary stuff...sure is!
Posted by: donl51
Comments are closed-
Posted by: carrdmv on Oct 19, 2007 7:18 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christ preached peace, but had no hatred of soldiers. Here is one example of Christ opinion of soldiers. Note he never condemns the soldier.Matthew 8:5-10 (Words of Jesus in red.)
When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him 6and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible distress." 7And he said to him, "I will come and cure him." 8The centurion answered, "Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes, and to another, 'Come,' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this,' and the slave does it." 10When Jesus heard him, he was amazed and said to those who followed him, "Truly I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith.
He did not tell the soldiers of his day to leave the military he said:
Luke 3:14
Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what should we do?" He said to them, "Do not extort money from anyone by threats or false accusation, and be satisfied with your wages."
Let's also not forget that Christ said there would be war until his return.
And in revelations war is the way to final salvation:
Luke 3:14
Jesus’ Second Coming also is exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 proclaims, “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations.
And finally the Bible says:
Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “there is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Some wars are more “just” than others, but all wars are ultimately the result of sin. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to the conflict, and praying for minimum casualties – on both sides of the conflict (Philippians 4:6-7).
If your going to claim to know what Jesus opposes or doesn't oppose at least read the source documents. You may want to check on the actual word used in Aramic or Hebrew as well when you look at the commandements -- kill is not the best suited word for the English translation.
Claudius actually coined the name Chritsians, and it was in common use well before Constantine.
And if you are a Christian, according to Jesus own words the way to the afterlife was through him, so "not" beleiving in the afterlife kind of makes you "not" a Christian.
But why actually use real terms when we can make them up.
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» RE: Why not use the Bible and history book for this discussion?
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Why not use the Bible and history book for this discussion?
Posted by: worldwide65
» RE: Why not use the Bible and history book for this discussion?
Posted by: Ellie F.
» You poor lost responders
Posted by: carrdmv
» RE: Why not use the Bible and history book for this discussion?
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: madmac10 on Oct 19, 2007 7:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you cannot or will not heave these lunatics out of your big tent onto their fat fundaments, that makes you a national socialist. Is that what has become of the party of Lincoln? A bunch of slavish nazis? Don't you love America anymore?
http://www.metalvortex.com/poems/warprayer.htm
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» RE: Why Aren't Republicans and everyone else Outraged?
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: tgabriel on Oct 19, 2007 9:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In Vietnam chaplains were everywhere and those who chose to ignore or not avail themselves of their services were not looked upon favorably.
We were allowed to put "no preference" on our dog tags but the lifers did not accept that very well.
Just as in American society, religious intolerance has been around for a long, long time.
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Posted by: chuckie on Oct 19, 2007 9:53 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Do you know you are winning?
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» RE: Do you know you are winning?
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» TheNamelessCity
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» RE: Do you know you are winning?
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» bsdone
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» LeeAnnG
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» RE: Do you know you are winning?
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» RE: Do you know you are winning?
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» madmac10
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» Chuckie, the non-movie
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» Knowmad
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» RE: madmac10
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» RE: Do you know you are winning?
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» heinz57
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» RE: Do you know you are winning?
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» thekidde
Posted by: chuckie
» RE: Do you know you are winning?
Posted by: Suz
» Suz No, just complaining about the free will thing :)
Posted by: chuckie
» Your logic (?) fails on many counts.
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» footman
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» Are you one of them too?
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» footman
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» RE: footman
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» RE: footman
Posted by: worldwide65
» footman
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» RE: footman
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» footman
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» RE: footman
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» Thank both of you...
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» worldwide65
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» RE: footman
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» werewolf
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» RE: Do you know you are winning? A Hippie replies.
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» Lauren
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» RE: Chuckie you're full of s.....so as not to offend!
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: sivermoon22 on Oct 19, 2007 10:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's the bad news.
They let us have the last election, because they knew they could blackmail every Repub congressman and women to stay in line, AND NOTHING WOULD GET DONE. But, by letting us have the election, they think we won't get very far in 08 whining about stolen elections. That's the one they want.
By the way, there is no difference between the parties. NONE.
When I say it's over. I mean it.
In the meantime, enjoy your life and stop worrying.
No use fighting them. It only prolongs the inevitable.
This must end. We allowed it and now we pay the cost of it.
No big.
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» RE: Good or Bad news?
Posted by: thekidde
» RE: Good or Bad news?
Posted by: carrdmv
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Oct 19, 2007 10:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is the Gary Bauer crowd - they're the ideological wing of the Republican Party, who are sneered at in private by the Waspish Wing represented by Bush Sr., James Baker, etc. Yes, they are seriously crazy, but in a mostly harmless and pathetic kind of way. They have far more in common with the public relations propaganda industry than they do with the military.
They've got a few wealthy financiers who back them for their own cynical reasons, but they have no future, especially not in the military.
Military recruits may be poor, but the fact is that poor people aren't stupid, despite what the elitist neoDarwinian crowd would have you believe. They may pray fervently, but their prayers are more of the "Dear God, don't let any of my friends get their heads blown off today" variety. That has nothing to do with the political B.S. coming out of the Republican fundie wing.
neurolingo.gnn.tv
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» Let me tell you about the Guards and reservists I used to work with.
Posted by: sausage
» Well, the Guard and the reservists aren't really active military
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: sausage on Oct 19, 2007 10:33 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As you know, the anti-Vietnam war movement was at the forefront of the push for an All Volunteer Force in the late Sixties and Seventies. The AVF was concocted by the godfather of the so-called free-market economy, Milton J. Friedman.
Since then its descendants have vigously fought any call for the institution of a Universal National Service, that will include a draft for military service. Now we are witness to the unintended consequences of a "Let those who want to be there, be there" military.
The AVF is far from being a representative cross-section of America. As army and Marine Corps recruiters trawl the poorer sections of America's inner cities and rural communities our military more resembles the thrill-seeking, kill-crazy banana republic, armed forces of Central America. One day in the not too distant future, these young men will be re-integrated into the civilian population as police officers, security guards, prison guards and even firefighters and postal employees. It is not by accident.
If the current crop of peaceniks are appalled by the level of brutality of exhibited by today's police, they must remember it is they and their Vietnam era antecedents who bear partial responsibility.
In the words of the late David Hackworth: Volunteers tend to go with the flow and seldom blow the whistle on military stupidity, flawed tactics and self-serving leadership. And draftees don't hesitate to make waves and tell the truth.
So it should come as no surprize that the U.S. military is more and more resembling a religious cult of warrior monks along the lines of the Knights Templar or the Knights of Malta. Mark the words of Becky Fischer, of the documentary Jesus Camp, who wants her "Christian" charges to be as fanatical and savage in the name of Christ as Osama bin Laden wishes his followers in the name of Allah. Naturally more than a few of Ms. Fischer's campers will, in the fullnes of time, elist because "God tells them" it is their duty as "Christians first" and Americans second, to be there.
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» RE: How do ya like your All Volunteer Army now, peaceniks?
Posted by: bsdone
» RE: How do ya like your All Volunteer Army now, peaceniks?
Posted by: heinz57
» Show your stats
Posted by: worldwide65
» First of all David Hackworth is dead
Posted by: sausage
» RE: First of all David Hackworth is dead
Posted by: worldwide65
» I asked you first
Posted by: worldwide65
» Read on grasshopper
Posted by: carrdmv
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Posted by: hurricane hugo on Oct 19, 2007 10:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
plur
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Posted by: 25ghostcommander on Oct 19, 2007 11:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: 25ghostcommander
Posted by: Doubtom
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Posted by: heinz57 on Oct 19, 2007 11:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: drblack on Oct 19, 2007 12:12 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A guy named John Eldridge was saying that men don't follow jesus because he looks like such a wimp these days and that modern society is emasculating.
He says boys have to be taught to be warriors of god.
I wonder how many mosques a teen boy has to bomb and how many non-believer s that teen has to torture before he is initiated into gods army.
Christian extremist are no different then muslim extremists..they simply use different symbols.
It is good to keep an eye on what the enemies of Freedom are up to.
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Posted by: RODNOX on Oct 19, 2007 1:49 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ORGANIZED RELIGION THE BASTARDIZATION OF SPIRITUALITY
Posted by: thekidde
» RE: Finally I do beleive you're getting it!
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: Ellie F. on Oct 19, 2007 1:50 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The mission of Jesus
Posted by: chuckie
» RE: The mission of Jesus
Posted by: Ellie F.
» AGREE 10,000% Ellie...
Posted by: Michiganman
» You know, you should check out...
Posted by: Suz
» RE: The mission of Jesus
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
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Posted by: thekidde on Oct 19, 2007 2:34 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: thekidde
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: Michiganman on Oct 19, 2007 11:12 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What?
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Posted by: worldwide65 on Oct 20, 2007 3:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is amazing however how fast that the name callers come out of the wood work or someone says DIE AND GO TO HELL.
At least 3 non-Christians here have spoken out and stated that this “Building God’s (Christian) Army” story smells of propaganda. And what do they get in turn?
The non-Christians were attacked for being Christian. I guess you could be called worse. Especially if we are talking about the essence of what Christian is supposed to mean.
Others, non-Christians are suddenly experts on all of Christianity. They run around and find a few bits from Wikipedia to use as there source for argument. (By the way, Wikipedia is created by people submitting inputs. There is no scholarly group out there building it.)
Members of the military posting here have posted their opinions, some on both sides of the table.
But those who have never served, somehow, know more about it than the ones who have.
There were some very thought provoking post here.
I particularly like the argument of a whether we are a Christian Nation. We are, we aren’t-- use the definition however you like – split all the hairs you want -- it doesn’t matter.
It is just one more example of the political machines ability to divide the people.
My favorite post are from the “All violence is wrong crowd.” They are the same ones who tell people to DIE or and call out to KILL Them All. They also happen to be the ones who say Christians are evil and the military are killers.
My apologies to you “All violence is wrong” people who have not called for blood.
Again and again these people do this throughout Alternet. They are as divisive as the people they are accusing of being divisive, but are too blinded by their own propaganda to realize it.
It is time to realize that the political machine is the one who divides the nation. It is not your Jewish neighbor, or the Muslim cross town. It is not the Christian church on Main Street. It is the powerful and political who divide.
As long as they keep you thinking it is someone else’s fault and fighting with each other over semantics like “Christian Nation,” the people can never unite and take steps to make real change in the government.
And yes, I have said this before. Hopefully at least someone will listen this time.
Probably not though, I'm sure I'm either ignorant, elitist, republican or Christian and should DIE and go to Hell.
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» Worldwide?65 GO KILL SOMEONE....
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Worldwide?65 GO KILL SOMEONE....
Posted by: worldwide65
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Posted by: eosrk on Oct 20, 2007 5:55 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So to put it short, I told the Caths to "Go Fuck yourselves....oh wait, you already do!
For you see, I'm Apolstolic Penecostal, and they're full of assholes too, but I know the True history of the Catholic Church!
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» RE: this is why Christianity is so screwed up....wait...it's...
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: Dolly Dagger on Oct 20, 2007 8:03 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chew on that for awhile -- this is the guy who burst in on the meeting that was approved by the chaplain.
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Posted by: donl51 on Oct 21, 2007 8:12 PM
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» RE: One god right?
Posted by: madmac10
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Posted by: donl51 on Oct 21, 2007 8:25 PM
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Posted by: votenic on Oct 21, 2007 8:59 PM
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http://www.votenic.com
Results Posted Tuesday Evening.
FREE, NON-BIASED
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Posted by: partisan on Oct 25, 2007 2:41 PM
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Posted by: vox persona on Oct 19, 2007 12:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The fundies are in charge now
Posted by: Axiom69
» Look Deeper. Look at history.
Posted by: Rolomax
» www.votenic.com
Posted by: votenic
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Posted by: Gentrification Through Natural Selection on Oct 19, 2007 12:52 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, most recruits are trailer/ghetto/barrio/ trash. Although troops have a lack of brain power, often seen in the lower classes, religion was not the prevailing attitude among the rifle jockeys.
Then 1LT L.-Now CPT L. US Army
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» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
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» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: Gentrification Through Natural Selection
» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: Axiom69
» Why don't you ask him...
Posted by: sausage
» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: phatkhat
» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: leafsong1
» The target is officers, not troops
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: The target is officers, not troops
Posted by: phatkhat
» RE: The target is officers, not troops
Posted by: Timba
» RE: The target is officers, not troops
Posted by: scheherezade
» Maybe you should resign your commission!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Maybe you should resign your commission!
Posted by: Gentrification Through Natural Selection
» RE: Maybe you should resign your commission!
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Maybe you should resign your commission!
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Maybe you should resign your commission!
Posted by: Axiom69
» Hate to correct a mistake but...
Posted by: Axiom69
» Hate to correct a mistake but...
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» RE: Maybe you should resign your commission!
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» RE: Maybe you should resign your commission!
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» RE: Maybe you should resign your commission!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: Axiom69
» Great comment! (elitist liberals are clueless about the military).
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» I'll be glad to pass this on
Posted by: worldwide65
» RE: Maybe you should ask troops
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
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Posted by: Lector on Oct 19, 2007 12:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is one of the essential problems of all religions. My god can beat up your god.
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» RE: Childhood of Man continues
Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: Childhood of Man continues
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» RE: Childhood of Man continues
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» RE: Childhood of Man continues
Posted by: jbur816
» RE: Childhood of Man continues
Posted by: werewolf
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Posted by: worldwide65 on Oct 19, 2007 1:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-- involved the evangelizing of cadets on the part of some faculty and staff at the Air Force Academy (AFA) in Colorado Springs, Colo., which came to light in 2004. Congress held hearings, DOD conducted an investigation, and the head of the academy acknowledged significant problems. --
The Air Force actually started this investigation through the IG. It was not first brought up through Congress. Officers involved were removed and reprimanded.
-- The most serious allegations from the field cannot be corroborated for this article. A few will be raised in the lawsuits, but some incidents have been documented.
It is not that difficult to corroborate these allegations. The writer can find out about cases like this by filing a request from the Air Force. If the case is under investigation you will not get an answer until the investigation is done, but they will tell you whether an investigation is taking place, within privacy act restrictions.
I would like to see any proof of a conspiracy in this regard. There will always be individuals that try to influence another’s religious beliefs, but there are those of every faith. During the Gulf War there was a cultural awareness center at Khobar Towers. They were there to teach Islamic custom to military members, but the discussion was more often than not about religious belief. In my military time, I have been approached by atheist and Wiccans who talked to me about their religion or lack of.. I took it for what it was; sharing their beliefs with someone they trusted.
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» RE: Show me proof
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Show me proof
Posted by: donl51
» RE: Show me proof
Posted by: werewolf
» For Sushi and Don -- RE: Show me proof
Posted by: worldwide65
» www.votenic.com
Posted by: votenic
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Posted by: rocketman on Oct 19, 2007 3:01 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Evangelicals are probably the greatest threat to his country..no doubt! But given the severity of the issues facing the military I doubt that religious rights is one of them.
As for military academy, I suspect the rape is an issue far surpassing the religious freedoms issue in importance and occurance. So I'm not sure this is nothing more than a few who got their freedoms trampled by a few!
Considering that we ARE a CHRISTIAN nation (80% or so) Wh would muslim countries think our attack is anything else but Christian agains Muslims! After all, that is the basis for the years of attacks on the west!
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» WRONG!
Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: bsdone
» DOLLARIA
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: Lauren
» Excellent Comment!!!
Posted by: rjgwood
» All so-called Christians are Materialists!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: All so-called Christians are Materialists!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: All so-called Christians are Materialists!
Posted by: Lauren
» Christmas has not "lost its meaning."
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Christmas has not "lost its meaning."
Posted by: jroth420
» RE: Christmas has not "lost its meaning."
Posted by: Ellie F.
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: jroth420
» RE: WRONG!
Posted by: rocketman
» LIke HELL we are a Christian nation!
Posted by: wireup
» RE: LIke HELL we are a Christian nation!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: LIke HELL we are a Christian nation!
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: solrev
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: You are almost there
Posted by: solrev
» RE: You are almost there
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: solrev
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: One creation under god!
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: One nation under Bush
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: Nidieux on Oct 19, 2007 3:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Nidieux
Posted by: worldwide65
» RE: Nidieux
Posted by: Nidieux
» RE: Nidieux
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» RE: Nidieux
Posted by: bsdone
» Forced Into Chapel
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» RE: Forced Into Chapel
Posted by: Lauren
» Please! Convenient "Back Door"
Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: Please! Convenient "Back Door"
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» RE: Please! Convenient "Back Door"
Posted by: Nidieux
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Oct 19, 2007 3:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called sons [and daughetrs] of God.
Jesus Christ
The Sermon on the Mount
From the Gospel According to Matthew
That's all the troops need to know.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
Christ vs Conservatism: A Serious Conflict
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» RE: Christ vs. Conservatism: A Serious Conflict
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Christ vs. Conservatism: A Serious Conflict
Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Sermon on the Mt. for the 21st Century Christ vs. Conservatism: A Serious Conflict
Posted by: wawa
» The SOTM is slave mentality.
Posted by: LMNOP
» Why be meek - and masochistic?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: The SOTM is slave mentality.
Posted by: Ellie F.
» RE: The SOTM is slave mentality.
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: The SOTM is slave mentality.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Christ vs. Conservatism: A Serious Conflict-THANKS TOM DEGAN
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Christ vs. Conservatism: A Serious Conflict-THANKS TOM DEGAN
Posted by: Tom Degan
» Like Kurt Vonnegut said
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Like Kurt Vonnegut said
Posted by: irenicus
» RE: Like Kurt Vonnegut said
Posted by: Bluecat464
» Neo Conservative Sermon on the Mount
Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: Neo Conservative Sermon on the Mount
Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Neo Conservative Sermon on the Mount
Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: Neo Conservative Sermon on the Mount
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Neo Conservative Sermon on the Mount
Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: Christ vs. Conservatism: A Serious Conflict
Posted by: babs
» RE: Oh bless this
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Oct 19, 2007 3:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Cheers!
Tom Degan
Jesus
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» www.votenic.com
Posted by: votenic
» RE: Here is the actual link (sorry 'bout that!):
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
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Posted by: drricklippin on Oct 19, 2007 4:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We in the US are increasingly a multicultural and multi-religious nation which MUST be recognized by all leaders-especially in our military.
I use the phrase God is "at" your side not "on" your side- the latter actually causing warfare.
If this global war on terrorism is framed as Christianity verses Islam we are in very deep trouble.
THANK YOU MIKEY WEINSTEIN! FOR FOUNDING MRFF
Win those lawsuits! Don't give up. I stand with you!
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
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» RE: FREEDOM OF RELIGION- DEFEND IT! HELP WEINSTEIN!
Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: FREEDOM OF RELIGION- DEFEND IT! HELP WEINSTEIN!
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: FREEDOM OF RELIGION- DEFEND IT! HELP WEINSTEIN!
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
Comments are closed-
Posted by: peacelf on Oct 19, 2007 5:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Constantinian Christians follow the imperialist "Christ" created by the Roman emperor Constantine. They are a nihilistic, greedy, self-serving bastardization of the Jesus tradition. Their focus on the "end of times" when 'all God's children will be taken to heaven' gives them license to kill in the name of God.
Constantinian Christians commit what Bishop John Shelby Spong calls the "sins of the scripture." They use the Bible to promote their ends, the same as Constantine. They justify evil in the name of Jesus.
As I've said before in other Alternet comments, the only way to challenge their power is to understand their beliefs and provide scriptural evidence of their misinterpretations. In other words, Constantinian Christians need to be de-programmed. Several Christian scholars--including the ones I mentioned-- are doing that very thing in their books.
Secular atheists, though, will have a difficult time convincing a Constantinian Christian to give up his beliefs. To Constantinian Christians, atheists are their worse enemies.
(And, yes, I attend a Southern Baptist Church every Sunday. I'm a subversive teacher of truth, justice and compassion for others.)
Peace
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» Just FYI
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Just FYI
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Just FYI
Posted by: Ellie F.
» RE: Jesus with a M16?
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Jesus with a M16?
Posted by: bsdone
» RE: Jesus was not a Jew
Posted by: solrev
» Constantine's domestic vs. international politics
Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: Constantine's "tolerance"?
Posted by: peacelf
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Posted by: wawa on Oct 19, 2007 5:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus was a social justice radical revolutionary Palestinian devout Jewish Road Warrior who challenged the job security of the Temple Priests by teaching the people they did NOT need to pay them for ritual baths and sacrificing livestock to be OK with God, for God LOVED them just as they were; sinners, outcasts, lepers, widows, orphans, prisoners ALL enduring under Roman Occupation.
2,000 years ago the Cross had NO religious symbolism-the roads to Jerusalem were lined with rebels and dissidents who were crucified for disturbing the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces.
The term Christian was not coined until 3 decades AFTER Christ walked the earth. His early followers were called members of THE WAY; the way being what he taught:
You must forgive to be forgiven, love and do good towards your enemies, don't judge others and it is the Peacemakers who are God's children.
Before Emperor Constantine brought Christianity into the mainstream, all the early Church Fathers taught that Christians should not serve in the army but instead willingly suffer rather than inflict harm on any other. St. Augustine was the first Church Father to consider the concept of a Just War. Within 100 years after Constantine, the Empire required that all soldiers in the army must be baptized Christians and thus, the decline of Christianity began.
In 313 AD, Emperor Constantine legitimized Christianity and thus, those who had been considered rebels and outlaws began to enjoy political power and prestige.
Jesus’ other name is The Prince of Peace, and with the marriage of church and state, his true teachings were reinterpreted. The justification of warfare and the use of state sponsored violence corrupted what Christ modeled and taught.
Jesus was always on about WAKE UP! The Divine already indwells you and all others.
With the justification of war and violence supplied by Augustine’s Just War Theory, wrong became right. Nothing much has changed in two millennia, for in today’s Orwellian world politicians claim the way to peace is through war and that nuclear weapons provide protection.
e
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
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» RE: CHRIST was NO Christian and neither are those
Posted by: StrayCat
» RE: CHRIST was NO Christian and neither are those
Posted by: bsdone
» You're not that WIDE AWAKE!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: You're not that WIDE AWAKE!
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: intelligence is overated
Posted by: solrev
» Not in America. It's mocked and despised. Ask any respected environmental scientist
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Not in America. It's mocked and despised. Ask any respected environmental scientist
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: You're not that WIDE AWAKE!
Posted by: Bluecat464
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Posted by: otto on Oct 19, 2007 6:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: otto
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: otto
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: outlander55 on Oct 19, 2007 6:55 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If it all comes down to it, the Jesus Freaks will perpetuate nuclear war to create their own End Times. Then where will we be? DEAD!!!
WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!!!
Good night and good luck....
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» RE: This is some scary stuff
Posted by: carrdmv
» RE: This is some scary stuff
Posted by: outlander55
» RE: This is some scary stuff
Posted by: worldwide65
» RE: This is some scary stuff
Posted by: outlander55
» And you're an enabler of haters on steroids.
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: And you're an enabler...
Posted by: Lauren
» Better off dead than...
Posted by: Cathyc
» It seems to me RE: This is some scary stuff
Posted by: worldwide65
» RE: This is some scary stuff
Posted by: jeanna
» RE: This is some scary stuff...sure is!
Posted by: donl51
Comments are closed-
Posted by: carrdmv on Oct 19, 2007 7:18 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christ preached peace, but had no hatred of soldiers. Here is one example of Christ opinion of soldiers. Note he never condemns the soldier.Matthew 8:5-10 (Words of Jesus in red.)
When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him 6and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible distress." 7And he said to him, "I will come and cure him." 8The centurion answered, "Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes, and to another, 'Come,' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this,' and the slave does it." 10When Jesus heard him, he was amazed and said to those who followed him, "Truly I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith.
He did not tell the soldiers of his day to leave the military he said:
Luke 3:14
Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what should we do?" He said to them, "Do not extort money from anyone by threats or false accusation, and be satisfied with your wages."
Let's also not forget that Christ said there would be war until his return.
And in revelations war is the way to final salvation:
Luke 3:14
Jesus’ Second Coming also is exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 proclaims, “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations.
And finally the Bible says:
Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “there is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Some wars are more “just” than others, but all wars are ultimately the result of sin. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to the conflict, and praying for minimum casualties – on both sides of the conflict (Philippians 4:6-7).
If your going to claim to know what Jesus opposes or doesn't oppose at least read the source documents. You may want to check on the actual word used in Aramic or Hebrew as well when you look at the commandements -- kill is not the best suited word for the English translation.
Claudius actually coined the name Chritsians, and it was in common use well before Constantine.
And if you are a Christian, according to Jesus own words the way to the afterlife was through him, so "not" beleiving in the afterlife kind of makes you "not" a Christian.
But why actually use real terms when we can make them up.
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» RE: Why not use the Bible and history book for this discussion?
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Why not use the Bible and history book for this discussion?
Posted by: worldwide65
» RE: Why not use the Bible and history book for this discussion?
Posted by: Ellie F.
» You poor lost responders
Posted by: carrdmv
» RE: Why not use the Bible and history book for this discussion?
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: madmac10 on Oct 19, 2007 7:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you cannot or will not heave these lunatics out of your big tent onto their fat fundaments, that makes you a national socialist. Is that what has become of the party of Lincoln? A bunch of slavish nazis? Don't you love America anymore?
http://www.metalvortex.com/poems/warprayer.htm
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» RE: Why Aren't Republicans and everyone else Outraged?
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: tgabriel on Oct 19, 2007 9:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In Vietnam chaplains were everywhere and those who chose to ignore or not avail themselves of their services were not looked upon favorably.
We were allowed to put "no preference" on our dog tags but the lifers did not accept that very well.
Just as in American society, religious intolerance has been around for a long, long time.
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Posted by: chuckie on Oct 19, 2007 9:53 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Do you know you are winning?
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Do you know you are winning?
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» TheNamelessCity
Posted by: chuckie
» RE: Do you know you are winning?
Posted by: bsdone
» bsdone
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» LeeAnnG
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» RE: Do you know you are winning?
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: Do you know you are winning?
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» madmac10
Posted by: chuckie
» Chuckie, the non-movie
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» Knowmad
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» RE: madmac10
Posted by: madmac10
» RE: Do you know you are winning?
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» heinz57
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» RE: Do you know you are winning?
Posted by: thekidde
» thekidde
Posted by: chuckie
» RE: Do you know you are winning?
Posted by: Suz
» Suz No, just complaining about the free will thing :)
Posted by: chuckie
» Your logic (?) fails on many counts.
Posted by: footman
» footman
Posted by: chuckie
» Are you one of them too?
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» footman
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» RE: footman
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» RE: footman
Posted by: worldwide65
» footman
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» RE: footman
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» footman
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» RE: footman
Posted by: footman
» Thank both of you...
Posted by: worldwide65
» worldwide65
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» footman
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» RE: footman
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» werewolf
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» RE: Do you know you are winning? A Hippie replies.
Posted by: Lauren
» Lauren
Posted by: chuckie
» RE: Chuckie you're full of s.....so as not to offend!
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: sivermoon22 on Oct 19, 2007 10:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's the bad news.
They let us have the last election, because they knew they could blackmail every Repub congressman and women to stay in line, AND NOTHING WOULD GET DONE. But, by letting us have the election, they think we won't get very far in 08 whining about stolen elections. That's the one they want.
By the way, there is no difference between the parties. NONE.
When I say it's over. I mean it.
In the meantime, enjoy your life and stop worrying.
No use fighting them. It only prolongs the inevitable.
This must end. We allowed it and now we pay the cost of it.
No big.
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» RE: Good or Bad news?
Posted by: thekidde
» RE: Good or Bad news?
Posted by: carrdmv
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Oct 19, 2007 10:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is the Gary Bauer crowd - they're the ideological wing of the Republican Party, who are sneered at in private by the Waspish Wing represented by Bush Sr., James Baker, etc. Yes, they are seriously crazy, but in a mostly harmless and pathetic kind of way. They have far more in common with the public relations propaganda industry than they do with the military.
They've got a few wealthy financiers who back them for their own cynical reasons, but they have no future, especially not in the military.
Military recruits may be poor, but the fact is that poor people aren't stupid, despite what the elitist neoDarwinian crowd would have you believe. They may pray fervently, but their prayers are more of the "Dear God, don't let any of my friends get their heads blown off today" variety. That has nothing to do with the political B.S. coming out of the Republican fundie wing.
neurolingo.gnn.tv
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» Let me tell you about the Guards and reservists I used to work with.
Posted by: sausage
» Well, the Guard and the reservists aren't really active military
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: sausage on Oct 19, 2007 10:33 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As you know, the anti-Vietnam war movement was at the forefront of the push for an All Volunteer Force in the late Sixties and Seventies. The AVF was concocted by the godfather of the so-called free-market economy, Milton J. Friedman.
Since then its descendants have vigously fought any call for the institution of a Universal National Service, that will include a draft for military service. Now we are witness to the unintended consequences of a "Let those who want to be there, be there" military.
The AVF is far from being a representative cross-section of America. As army and Marine Corps recruiters trawl the poorer sections of America's inner cities and rural communities our military more resembles the thrill-seeking, kill-crazy banana republic, armed forces of Central America. One day in the not too distant future, these young men will be re-integrated into the civilian population as police officers, security guards, prison guards and even firefighters and postal employees. It is not by accident.
If the current crop of peaceniks are appalled by the level of brutality of exhibited by today's police, they must remember it is they and their Vietnam era antecedents who bear partial responsibility.
In the words of the late David Hackworth: Volunteers tend to go with the flow and seldom blow the whistle on military stupidity, flawed tactics and self-serving leadership. And draftees don't hesitate to make waves and tell the truth.
So it should come as no surprize that the U.S. military is more and more resembling a religious cult of warrior monks along the lines of the Knights Templar or the Knights of Malta. Mark the words of Becky Fischer, of the documentary Jesus Camp, who wants her "Christian" charges to be as fanatical and savage in the name of Christ as Osama bin Laden wishes his followers in the name of Allah. Naturally more than a few of Ms. Fischer's campers will, in the fullnes of time, elist because "God tells them" it is their duty as "Christians first" and Americans second, to be there.
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» RE: How do ya like your All Volunteer Army now, peaceniks?
Posted by: bsdone
» RE: How do ya like your All Volunteer Army now, peaceniks?
Posted by: heinz57
» Show your stats
Posted by: worldwide65
» First of all David Hackworth is dead
Posted by: sausage
» RE: First of all David Hackworth is dead
Posted by: worldwide65
» I asked you first
Posted by: worldwide65
» Read on grasshopper
Posted by: carrdmv
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Posted by: hurricane hugo on Oct 19, 2007 10:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
plur
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Posted by: 25ghostcommander on Oct 19, 2007 11:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: 25ghostcommander
Posted by: Doubtom
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Posted by: heinz57 on Oct 19, 2007 11:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: drblack on Oct 19, 2007 12:12 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A guy named John Eldridge was saying that men don't follow jesus because he looks like such a wimp these days and that modern society is emasculating.
He says boys have to be taught to be warriors of god.
I wonder how many mosques a teen boy has to bomb and how many non-believer s that teen has to torture before he is initiated into gods army.
Christian extremist are no different then muslim extremists..they simply use different symbols.
It is good to keep an eye on what the enemies of Freedom are up to.
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Posted by: RODNOX on Oct 19, 2007 1:49 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ORGANIZED RELIGION THE BASTARDIZATION OF SPIRITUALITY
Posted by: thekidde
» RE: Finally I do beleive you're getting it!
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: Ellie F. on Oct 19, 2007 1:50 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The mission of Jesus
Posted by: chuckie
» RE: The mission of Jesus
Posted by: Ellie F.
» AGREE 10,000% Ellie...
Posted by: Michiganman
» You know, you should check out...
Posted by: Suz
» RE: The mission of Jesus
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
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Posted by: thekidde on Oct 19, 2007 2:34 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: thekidde
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: Michiganman on Oct 19, 2007 11:12 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What?
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Posted by: worldwide65 on Oct 20, 2007 3:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is amazing however how fast that the name callers come out of the wood work or someone says DIE AND GO TO HELL.
At least 3 non-Christians here have spoken out and stated that this “Building God’s (Christian) Army” story smells of propaganda. And what do they get in turn?
The non-Christians were attacked for being Christian. I guess you could be called worse. Especially if we are talking about the essence of what Christian is supposed to mean.
Others, non-Christians are suddenly experts on all of Christianity. They run around and find a few bits from Wikipedia to use as there source for argument. (By the way, Wikipedia is created by people submitting inputs. There is no scholarly group out there building it.)
Members of the military posting here have posted their opinions, some on both sides of the table.
But those who have never served, somehow, know more about it than the ones who have.
There were some very thought provoking post here.
I particularly like the argument of a whether we are a Christian Nation. We are, we aren’t-- use the definition however you like – split all the hairs you want -- it doesn’t matter.
It is just one more example of the political machines ability to divide the people.
My favorite post are from the “All violence is wrong crowd.” They are the same ones who tell people to DIE or and call out to KILL Them All. They also happen to be the ones who say Christians are evil and the military are killers.
My apologies to you “All violence is wrong” people who have not called for blood.
Again and again these people do this throughout Alternet. They are as divisive as the people they are accusing of being divisive, but are too blinded by their own propaganda to realize it.
It is time to realize that the political machine is the one who divides the nation. It is not your Jewish neighbor, or the Muslim cross town. It is not the Christian church on Main Street. It is the powerful and political who divide.
As long as they keep you thinking it is someone else’s fault and fighting with each other over semantics like “Christian Nation,” the people can never unite and take steps to make real change in the government.
And yes, I have said this before. Hopefully at least someone will listen this time.
Probably not though, I'm sure I'm either ignorant, elitist, republican or Christian and should DIE and go to Hell.
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» Worldwide?65 GO KILL SOMEONE....
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Worldwide?65 GO KILL SOMEONE....
Posted by: worldwide65
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Posted by: eosrk on Oct 20, 2007 5:55 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So to put it short, I told the Caths to "Go Fuck yourselves....oh wait, you already do!
For you see, I'm Apolstolic Penecostal, and they're full of assholes too, but I know the True history of the Catholic Church!
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» RE: this is why Christianity is so screwed up....wait...it's...
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: Dolly Dagger on Oct 20, 2007 8:03 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chew on that for awhile -- this is the guy who burst in on the meeting that was approved by the chaplain.
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Posted by: donl51 on Oct 21, 2007 8:12 PM
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» RE: One god right?
Posted by: madmac10
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Posted by: donl51 on Oct 21, 2007 8:25 PM
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Posted by: votenic on Oct 21, 2007 8:59 PM
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http://www.votenic.com
Results Posted Tuesday Evening.
FREE, NON-BIASED
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Posted by: partisan on Oct 25, 2007 2:41 PM
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