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How Lost the War Is

Neither the President nor the war's intellectual architects are prepared to admit this. Nonetheless, the specter of defeat shapes their thinking in telling ways.
July 19, 2007  |  
 
 
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[This essay appears in the August 16th, 2007 issue of the New York Review of Books and is posted here with the kind permission of the editors of that magazine.]



1.





On May 30, the Coalition held a ceremony in the Kurdistan town of Erbil to mark its handover of security in Iraq's three Kurdish provinces from the Coalition to the Iraqi government. General Benjamin Mixon, the U.S. commander for northern Iraq, praised the Iraqi government for overseeing all aspects of the handover. And he drew attention to the "benchmark" now achieved: with the handover, he said, Iraqis now controlled security in seven of Iraq's eighteen provinces.



In fact, nothing was handed over. The only Coalition force in Kurdistan is the peshmerga, a disciplined army that fought alongside the Americans in the 2003 campaign to oust Saddam Hussein and is loyal to the Kurdistan government in Erbil. The peshmerga provided security in the three Kurdish provinces before the handover and after. The Iraqi army has not been on Kurdistan's territory since 1996 and is effectively prohibited from being there. Nor did the Iraqi flag fly at the ceremony. It is banned in Kurdistan.



Although the Erbil handover was a sham that Prince Potemkin might have admired, it was not easily arranged. The Bush administration had wanted the handover to take place before the U.S. congressional elections in November. But it also wanted an Iraqi flag flown at the ceremony and some acknowledgement that Iraq, not Kurdistan, was in charge. The Kurds were prepared to include a reference to Iraq in the ceremony, but they were adamant that there be no Iraqi flags. It took months to work out a compromise ceremony with no flags at all. Thus the ceremony was followed by a military parade without a single flag -- an event so unusual that one observer thought it might merit mention in Ripley's Believe it or Not.



Mowaffak al-Rubaie, the Iraqi national security adviser, attended the ceremony alongside Kurdistan's prime minister, Nechirvan Barzani, but the Iraqi government had no part in supervising the nonexistent handover. While General Mixon, a highly regarded strategist with excellent ties to the Kurds, had no choice but to make the remarks he did, Mowaffak al-Rubaie acknowledged Kurdistan's distinct nature and the right of the Kurds -- approximately six million people, or some 20% of Iraq's population -- to chart their own course.





On July 12, the White House released a congressionally mandated report on progress in Iraq. As with the sham handover, the report reflected the administration's desperate search for indicators of progress since it began its "surge" by sending five additional combat brigades to the country in February 2007. In recent months the Bush administration and its advocates have been promoting the success of the surge in reducing sectarian killing in Baghdad and achieving a turnaround in Anbar province, where former Sunni insurgents are signing up with local militias to fight al-Qaeda.



Although reliable statistics about Iraq are notoriously hard to come by it does appear that the overall civilian death toll in Baghdad has declined from its pre-surge peak, although it is still at the extremely high levels of the summer of 2006. Moreover, the number of unidentified bodies -- usually the victims of Shiite death squads -- has risen in May and June to pre-surge levels. How much of the modest decline in civilian deaths in Baghdad is attributable to the surge is not knowable, nor is there any way to know if it will last.



The developments in Anbar are more significant. Tribesmen who had been attacking U.S. troops in support of the insurgency are now taking U.S. weapons to fight al-Qaeda and other Sunni extremists. Unfortunately, the Sunni fundamentalists are not the only enemy of these new U.S.-sponsored militias. The Sunni tribes also regard Iraq's Shiite-led government as an enemy, and the U.S. appears now to be in the business of arming both the Sunni and Shiite factions in what has long since become a civil war.



Against the backdrop of modest progress, much has not changed, or has gotten worse. The Baghdad Green Zone is subject to increasingly accurate mortar attacks and is deemed at greater risk of penetration by suicide bombers. Moqtada al-Sadr, the radical Shiite cleric whose Mahdi Army was a major target of Bush's surge strategy, remains one of Iraq's most powerful political figures. The military activity against his forces seems only to have enhanced his standing with the public.



Even if the surge has had some modest military success, it has failed to accomplish its political objectives. The idea behind Bush's new strategy was to increase temporarily the number of U.S. troops in Baghdad and Anbar. The aim was to provide a breathing space so that Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's government might enact a program of national reconciliation that would accommodate enough Sunnis to isolate the insurgents. Meanwhile, Iraqi forces, improved by their close relations with U.S. troops and additional training, would take over security.




The core of the national reconciliation program is a series of legislative and political steps that the government should take to address the concerns of Iraq's Sunnis, who feel left out of the country they dominated until 2003. These steps include an oil revenue-sharing law (to ensure that the oil-poor Sunni regions get their share of revenue); holding provincial elections (the Sunnis boycotted the January 2005 provincial and parliamentary elections leaving them underrepresented even in Sunni-majority provinces); revising Iraq's constitution (the Sunnis want a more centralized state); revising the ban on public sector employment of former Baathists (Sunnis dominated the upper ranks of the Baath Party and of the Saddam-era public service), and a fair distribution of reconstruction funds. Both the administration and Congress have placed great emphasis on the obligation of the Iraqi government to achieve these so-called benchmarks. Congress has, by law, linked US strategy on Iraq and financial support of the Iraqi government to progress on these benchmarks and other steps.



Iraq's government has not met one of the benchmarks, and, with the exception of the revenue-sharing law, most are unlikely to happen. But even if they were all enacted, it would not help. Provincial elections will make Iraq less governable while the process of constitutional revision could break the country apart.



Ryan Crocker, the U.S. ambassador to Baghdad, likes to talk of the disparity between the Iraqi clock and the U.S. clock, suggesting that Iraqis believe they have more time to reach agreement than the American political calendar will tolerate. Crocker is the State Department's foremost Iraq hand but, more generally, American impatience often reflects ignorance. For example, both Congress and the administration have expressed frustration that the ban on public service by ex-Baathists has not been relaxed, since this appears to be a straightforward change, easily accomplished and already promised by Iraq's leaders.



Abdul Aziz al-Hakim leads the Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council (SIIC, previously known as SCIRI), which is Iraq's leading Shiite party and a critical component of Prime Minister al-Maliki's coalition. He is the sole survivor of eight brothers. During Saddam's rule Baathists executed six of them. On August 29, 2003, a suicide bomber, possibly linked to the Baathists, blew up his last surviving brother, and predecessor as SCIRI leader, at the shrine of Ali in Najaf. Moqtada al-Sadr, Hakim's main rival, comes from Iraq's other prominent Shiite religious family. Saddam's Baath regime murdered his father and two brothers in 1999. Earlier, in April 1980, the regime had arrested Moqtada's father-in-law and the father-in-law's sister -- the Grand Ayatollah Baqir al-Sadr and Bint al-Huda. While the ayatollah watched, the Baath security men raped and killed his sister. They then set fire to the ayatollah's beard before driving nails into his head. De-Baathification is an intensely personal issue for Iraq's two most powerful Shiite political leaders, as it is to hundreds of thousands of their followers who suffered similar atrocities.



Iraq's Shiite leaders are reluctant to spend reconstruction money in Sunni areas because they believe, not without reason, that such funds support the Sunni side in the civil war. In a speech in late June on the Senate floor Indiana Republican Richard Lugar reported that Iraq's Shiite-led government has gone "out of its way to bottle up money budgeted for Sunni provinces" and that the "strident intervention" of the U.S. embassy was required in order to get food rations delivered to Sunni towns.



Iraq's mainstream Shiite leaders resist holding new provincial elections because they know what such elections are likely to bring. Because the Sunnis boycotted the January 2005 elections, they do not control the northern governorate, or province, of Nineveh, in which there is a Sunni majority, and they are not represented in governorates with mixed populations, such as Diyala province, northeast of Baghdad. New elections would, it is argued, give Sunnis a greater voice in the places where they live, and the Shiites say they do not have a problem with this, although just how they would treat the militant Sunnis who would be elected is far from clear. The Kurds reluctantly accept new elections in the Sunni governorates even though it means they will lose control of Nineveh and have a much-reduced presence in Diyala.




The American benchmark of holding provincial elections would also require new elections in southern Iraq and Baghdad. If they were held, al-Hakim's Shiite party, the SIIC, which now controls seven of the nine southern governorates, would certainly lose ground to Moqtada al-Sadr. His main base is in Baghdad and new elections would almost certainly leave his followers in control of Baghdad Governorate, with one quarter of Iraq's population. Iraq's decentralized constitution gives the governorates enormous powers and significant shares of the national budget, if they choose to exercise these powers. New local elections are not required until 2009 and it is hard to see how early elections strengthening al-Sadr, who is hostile to the U.S. and appears to have close ties to Iran, serve American interests. But this is precisely what the Bush administration is pushing for and Congress seems to want.



Constitutional revision is the most significant benchmark and it could break Iraq apart. Iraq's constitution, approved by 79% of voters in an October 2005 referendum, is the product of a Kurdish-Shiite deal: the Kurds supported the establishment of a Shiite-led government in exchange for Shiite support for a confederal arrangement in which Kurdistan and other regions like the one SIIC hopes to set up in the south, are virtually independent.



Since there is no common ground among the Shiites, Kurds, and Sunnis on any significant constitutional changes in favor of the Sunnis, such changes must come at the expense of the Kurds or Shiites. Since voters in these communities have a veto on any constitutional amendments, they are certain to fail in a referendum. A revised constitution has no chance of being enacted but its failure will exacerbate tensions among Iraq's three groups.



Constitutionally, Iraq's central government has almost no power, and the Bush administration is partially to blame for this. When the constitution was being drafted in 2005, the United Nations came up with a series of proposals that would have made for more workable sharing of power between regions and the central government. The U.S. embassy stopped the UN from presenting these proposals because it hoped for a final document as centralized as (and textually close to) the interim constitution written by the Americans.



When the constitution finally emerged in its present form, then U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad brokered a deal with several Sunni leaders whereby, in exchange for Sunni support for ratification, there would be a fast-track process to revise the constitution in the months following ratification to meet Sunni concerns. Like the Bush administration, the Sunnis want a more centralized state. While the U.S. insists that constitutional revision is a moral obligation, the Sunnis actually never lived up to their end of the bargain. Almost unanimously, they voted against ratification of the current constitution.



With input from the United Nations (belatedly brought back into the process last year), the Iraqi Parliament's mainly Arab Constitutional Review Committee (CRC) is considering amendments that would strip Kurdistan of many of its powers, including its right to cancel federal laws, to decide on taxes applicable in its own territory, and to control its own oil and water. The Sunni Arabs would also like Iraq declared an Arab state, a measure the non-Arab Kurds consider racist and exclusionary.





Thanks to Khalilzad's expedited procedures, constitutional revision may be the final wedge between Kurdistan and Arab Iraq. If approved by the CRC, the constitutional amendments will be subject to a vote in the parliament as a single package and then to a nationwide referendum. Kurdistan's voters are certain to reject the proposed package (or any package affecting Kurdistan's powers), and this could push tense Sunni-Kurdish relations into open conflict. Kurdish NGOs, who ran a 2005 independence referendum, are poised to make a "NO" campaign on constitutional revision a "No to Iraq" vote. In its July 12 report to Congress, the White House graded the CRC's work as "satisfactory," an evaluation that was either grossly dishonest, or, more likely, out of touch with Iraqi reality.



For the most part, Iraq's leaders are not personally stubborn or uncooperative. They find it impossible to reach agreement on the benchmarks because their constituents don't agree on any common vision for Iraq. The Shiites voted twice in 2005 for parties that seek to define Iraq as a Shiite state. By their boycotts and votes the Sunni Arabs have almost unanimously rejected the Shiite vision of Iraq's future, including the new constitution. The Kurds' envisage an Iraq that does not include them. In the 2005 parliamentary elections, 99% of them voted for Kurdish nationalist parties, and in the January 2005 referendum, 98% voted for an independent Kurdistan.



But even if Iraq's politicians could agree to the benchmarks, this wouldn't end the insurgency or the civil war. Sunni insurgents object to Iraq being run by Shiite religious parties, which they see as installed by the Americans, loyal to Iran, and wanting to define Iraq in a way that excludes the Sunnis. Sunni fundamentalists consider the Shiites apostates who deserve death, not power. The Shiites believe that their democratic majority and their historical suffering under the Baathist dictatorship entitle them to rule. They are not inclined to compromise with Sunnis, whom they see as their longstanding oppressors, especially when they believe most Iraqi Sunnis are sympathetic to the suicide bombers that have killed thousands of ordinary Shiites. The differences are fundamental and cannot be papered over by sharing oil revenues, reemploying ex-Baathists, or revising the constitution. The war is not about those things.



2.




The Iraq war is lost. Of course, neither the President nor the war's intellectual architects are prepared to admit this. Nonetheless, the specter of defeat shapes their thinking in telling ways.




The case for the war is no longer defined by the benefits of winning -- a stable Iraq, democracy on the march in the Middle East, the collapse of the evil Iranian and Syrian regimes -- but by the consequences of defeat. As President Bush put it, "The consequences of failure in Iraq would be death and destruction in the Middle East and here in America."



Tellingly, the Iraq war's intellectual boosters, while insisting the surge is working, are moving to assign blame for defeat. And they have already picked their target: the American people. In The Weekly Standard, Tom Donnelly, a fellow at the neoconservative American Enterprise Institute, wrote, "Those who believe the war is already lost -- call it the Clinton-Lugar axis -- are mounting a surge of their own. Ground won in Iraq becomes ground lost at home." Lugar provoked Donnelly's anger by noting that the American people had lost confidence in Bush's Iraq strategy as demonstrated by the Democratic takeover of both houses of Congress. (This "blame the American people" approach has, through repetition, almost become the accepted explanation for the outcome in Vietnam, attributing defeat to a loss of public support and not to fifteen years of military failure.)



Indeed, Vietnam is the image many Americans have of defeat in Iraq. Al-Qaeda would overrun the Green Zone and the last Americans would evacuate from the rooftop of the still unfinished largest embassy in the world. President Bush feeds on this imagery. In his May 5, 2007, radio address to the nation, he explained:

If radicals and terrorists emerge from this battle with control of Iraq, they would have control of a nation with massive oil reserves, which they could use to fund their dangerous ambitions and spread their influence. The al Qaeda terrorists who behead captives or order suicide bombings would not be satisfied to see America defeated and gone from Iraq. They would be emboldened by their victory, protected by their new sanctuary, eager to impose their hateful vision on surrounding countries, and eager to harm Americans.


But there will be no Saigon moment in Iraq. Iraq's Shiite-led government is in no danger of losing the civil war to al-Qaeda, or a more inclusive Sunni front. Iraq's Shiites are three times as numerous as Iraq's Sunni Arabs; they dominate Iraq's military and police and have a powerful ally in neighboring Iran. The Arab states that might support the Sunnis are small, far away (vast deserts separate the inhabited parts of Jordan and Saudi Arabia from the main Iraqi population centers), and can only provide money, something the insurgency has in great amounts already.





Iraq after an American defeat will look very much like Iraq today -- a land divided along ethnic lines into Arab and Kurdish states with a civil war being fought within its Arab part. Defeat is defined by America's failure to accomplish its objective of a self-sustaining, democratic, and unified Iraq. And that failure has already taken place, along with the increase of Iranian power in the region.



Iraq's Kurdish leaders and Iraq's dwindling band of secular Arab democrats fear that a complete U.S. withdrawal will leave all of Iraq under Iranian influence. Senator Hillary Clinton, Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Joe Biden, and former UN Ambassador Richard Holbrooke are among the prominent Democrats who have called for the U.S. to protect Kurdistan militarily should there be a withdrawal from Iraq. The argument for so doing is straightforward: it secures the one part of Iraq that has emerged as stable, democratic, and pro-Western; it discharges a moral debt to our Kurdish allies; it deters both Turkish intervention and a potentially destabilizing Turkish-Kurdish war; it provides U.S. forces a secure base that can be used to strike at al-Qaeda in adjacent Sunni territories; and it limits Iran's gains.



In laying out his dark vision of an American failure, President Bush never discusses Iran's domination of Iraq even though this is a far more likely consequence of American defeat than an al-Qaeda victory. Bush's reticence is understandable since it was his miscalculations and incompetent management of the postwar occupation that gave Iran its opportunity. While opposing talks with Iran, the neoconservatives also prefer not to discuss its current powerful influence over Iraq's central government and southern region, persisting in the fantasy -- notwithstanding all evidence to the contrary -- that Iran is deeply unpopular among Iraq's Shiites and clerics. (At the same time, U.S. officials accuse Iran of supplying Iraqi Shiite militias with particularly lethal roadside bombs.)



3.




On June 25, without giving the press or White House any advance notice, Richard Lugar, the most respected Republican voice on foreign affairs in Congress, spoke in the Senate about "connecting our Iraq strategy to our vital interests." On the face of it, the idea is as sensible and conservative as the senator delivering the speech. He observed that political fragmentation in Iraq, the stress suffered by the U.S. military, and growing antiwar sentiment at home "make it almost impossible for the United States to engineer a stable, multi-sectarian government in Iraq in a reasonable time frame." Lugar noted that agreements reached with Iraqi leaders are most often not implemented, partly, as Lugar observed, because the leaders do not control their followers but also because Iraqi leaders have also discovered that telling the Bush administration what it wants to hear is a fully acceptable substitute for action.




Lugar is blunt in his description of the situation in Iraq:

Few Iraqis have demonstrated that they want to be Iraqis.... In this context, the possibility that the United States can set meaningful benchmarks that would provide an indication of impending success or failure is remote. Perhaps some benchmarks or agreements will be initially achieved, but most can be undermined or reversed by a contrary edict of the Iraqi government, a decision by a faction to ignore agreements, or the next terrorist attack or wave of sectarian killings. American manpower cannot keep the lid on indefinitely. The anticipation that our training operations could produce an effective Iraqi army loyal to a cohesive central government is still just a hopeful plan for the future.


Lugar concluded his speech by urging that we "refocus our policy in Iraq on realistic assessments of what can be achieved, and on a sober review of our vital interests in the Middle East." After four years of a war driven more by wishful thinking than strategy, this is hardly a radical idea, but it has produced a barrage of covert criticism of Lugar from the administration and overt attack from the neoconservatives.



Lugar's focus on the achievable runs against main currents of opinion in a nation increasingly polarized between the growing number who want to withdraw from Iraq and the die-hard defenders of a failure. We need to recognize, as Lugar implicitly does, that Iraq no longer exists as a unified country. In the parts where we can accomplish nothing, we should withdraw. But there are still three missions that may be achievable -- disrupting al-Qaeda, preserving Kurdistan's democracy, and limiting Iran's increasing domination. These can all be served by a modest U.S. presence in Kurdistan. We need an Iraq policy with sufficient nuance to protect American interests. Unfortunately, we probably won't get it.



Peter W. Galbraith, a former US Ambassador to Croatia, is Senior Diplomatic Fellow at the Center for Arms Control and a principal at the Windham Resources Group, a firm that negotiates on behalf of its clients in post-conflict societies, including Iraq. His The End of Iraq: How American Incompetence Created a War Without End is now out in paperback





This article appears in the August 16th issue of the New York Review of Books.



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Peter W. Galbraith, a former US Ambassador to Croatia, is Senior Diplomatic Fellow at the Center for Arms Control and a principal at the Windham Resources Group, a firm that negotiates on behalf of its clients in post-conflict societies, including Iraq. His book The End of Iraq: How American Incompetence Created a War Without End is now out in paperback.
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How Lost Is This War?
Posted by: Tom Degan on Jul 19, 2007 12:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This war was lost the night the half-witted frat boy from Crawford, Texas made the stupidest foreign policy blunder in American history by invading what was (like it or not) the sovereign nation of Iraq.

How lost is this war?

Very lost, indeed. In point of fact, this is a war that never could have been won. George W. Bush looked at Desert Storm in 1991 and, confidently, stupidly said to himself, "If Daddy kin do it, Ah kin do it". Words that would eventually blow up in his twisted little face.

How lost is this war?

Completely lost. That's why the First Fool desperately wants to hand it over to the next administration - an administration he knows damn well will be a Democratic one. He could end it tomorrow - but for purely political and egotistical reasons he won't. He could save untold thousands of lives but that would make him the second president in a generation to lose a war. No. Let the Dems take the blame.

There's "compassionate conservatism" for you.

Pray for peace.

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan

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» RE: How Lost Is This War? Posted by: Abushite
» Depends On Your Definition Of "Lost" Posted by: malcolmartin

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The war will continue until people stand up
Posted by: IntnsRed on Jul 19, 2007 12:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm trying not to be pessimistic, believe me. And I know the US will eventually lose in Iraq -- that's clear.

But this war will drag on for some time. The US ruling classes want control of Mid-East and Central Asian oil, and they need it to keep the shell which is now the US economy sputtering along -- long term consequences and blowback be damned.

Why should Bush and Cheney stop? Because of whining liberals in Congress? Because of a compliant corporate media who feels "duty bound" to parrot their lies? Because the latest hundred dead Iraqi civilians is "too many" dead compared to the hundreds of thousands that they've already killed?

The corporate mass media has been masterful at obfuscating the conflict -- millions still believe that Saddam Hussein was in league with Bin Laden. Like the "flexible" history of Orwell's "1984" where Big Brother rewrites history constantly to suit Big Brother's latest propaganda, so now does the US invoke "Al Queda in Iraq" and the fear of what will happen if the US pulls out of Iraq as reasons for the war -- the initial, planned and deliberate lies about Iraqi WMD have been flushed down the Orwellian Memory Hole.

The Democrats are spineless to the point of being useless. The Democrats' corporate backers/funders want nothing more than to use the Iraq war as an electoral stick. The anti-war movement is timid and eviscerated.

Sorry, that's the truth. The ugly truth is the war will continue...

...unless people get off their asses, lose their timidity, organize, get into the streets, raise hell, and start to make hard and fast links to the corporate policies and economic factors that drive the war in Iraq and which are undermining US liberties at home.

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» RE: amen Posted by: Ripcord

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The ending credits
Posted by: Temporary on Jul 19, 2007 1:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The war is OVER!

America is BROKE!

And we have a WINNER!

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» RE: The ending credits Posted by: Tom Degan

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But lets remember...
Posted by: Temporary on Jul 19, 2007 1:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that Americas boys didn't die for "nothing" now did they?

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Kurdistan v. Turkey...
Posted by: brotherjonah on Jul 19, 2007 3:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Only, it wasn't limited to those two powers..

Ever.

The U.S. and Turkey performed joint maneuvers against the Kurds many times in the past nearly 30 years, the time frame for which I have most reliable second hand information.

That's the time that I've had, in my ADULT life, friends and family in the military in the region.

Also in the same time frame, the U.S. and the Shah of Iran had joint ventures against Kurdistan. The Shah and Russia and Turks had joint military ventures against the Kurds.
Turkey and Iraq had joint military ventures against the Kurds.

Just as the U.S. and Soviets might not have had concurrent Joint Military Ventures against the Kurds, for obvious reasons, And Iraq and Iran might not have had concurrent JMVs against the Kurds, the level of animosity against them and the level of the effort which SOMETIMES amounted to nothing less than an extermination campaign, and the not-quite-seamless jigsaw puzzle of the military coalitions that took aim at Kurdistan....

Well, to wrap up that disgustingly long and almost unreadable concept, (Warning: I did say ALMOST)... I have to provide two near-anecdotal references...

These were provided by people who were very close to me.

The first mention made was a joke they thought extremely funny, only it describes a real incident in which they took part.

In the late 1990s, their Air National Guard unit was TDY in Turkey, providing relief for a Regular Air Force unit. Patrolling the Northern No-Fly Zone. As the author mentioned, there were no Iraqi soldiers allowed in Kurdistan at all since 1996.

Take into account that at this time, the Air Force and both the Bush administrations and the Clinton administration (bush41 and bush43) repeated the claim that no ground targets were ever attacked without first taking hostile action against the American Patrols.

On to the incident, one of their pilots shot up what they termed a flock of sheep, they were laughing that the pilot was feeling rather "Sheepish" because he was having a "baaaaad day".

A couple more factors: F16 Fighters are armed with the Vulcan drum fed electric Gatling gun with a cyclic rate of 7200 rounds per minute. That's a120 shots per second. They are also armed with the Appropriately Named Hellfire missiles. Their targeting systems are the Pride and Joy of the Air Force.

There is no fucking way that somebody would escape from its deadly spell once he is targeted.

Only, Domestic Sheep, you know, they have Human shepherds to care for them. Their survival instincts have been drained out of them through thousands of years of breeding. They can't even give birth without human intervention. So that wasn't just a flock of sheep, it was a couple of Kurdish men as well.

The other incident happened in Turkey. My brother-in-law in a not so subtle thread (That's not a threat --it's a PROMISE) (gotta love it when they try to talk Hollywood to me) told me "You know what they do to people like YOU in Turkey?"
--meaning Anarchists--
"I saw the Turkish cops just shoot one down and send him home in a body bag, no questions asked"

Of course, his reason for being in Turkey was to provide Materiel, Logistical and Tactical support for the Turkish government, so that suspected Anarchists and other groups wouldn't be able to evade or resist or in some other way prevent the Turkish pigs from murdering them, In other words, he was there to basically hold the guy down while his Pig buddies shot him.

Giving all those factors, and the fact that the U.S. actively participated in the extermination of Kurds, how am I supposed to believe that the U.S. supplied Nerve Gas which was used against the Kurds not also U.S. authorized for use against the Kurds?

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To finish the story...
Posted by: brotherjonah on Jul 19, 2007 3:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ran a bit long, apologies all around...

The F-16 v. Sheep routine took place when the pilot's mission was supposed to be PROTECTING the Kurds.


Now the Turks, as of yesterday, after a month of buildups along the northern border, a buildup the White Only House and the Pentagram both deny, the Turks have launched attacks within Iraq.



In our attempts to manage NATO we had at least one incident, during the Cyprus war, when the Turks and Greeks, both NATO allies. extended their war to Ft Bliss Texas.



Where there were training garrisons from both nations. Shots fired type fighting.



On a U.S. Army base, at the time the largest Army base in America.



Looking at the lovely pattern of success we have had "controlling" our puppet states, Kurdistan might be the best shot at continued U.S. presence in the region,



But, that's a good thing exactly HOW?

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Biden and I have been calling for partition for two years now
Posted by: janvdb on Jul 19, 2007 5:09 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Bushies want a central government, because it would be weak and dependent. You're our puppet or you die!

A Shiite south, a Sunni west, a Kurdish north -- they'd be popular, self-protecting states.

They wouldn't need us.

Which is why we didn't take the Yugoslav Option two years ago.

If we had a conference, drew lines, helped people re-locate, monitored those lines by satelite and provided prompt help to anyone who was invaded across those lines -- we could get out now without the bloodshed Bushie keeps blandishing.

There are no easy options, no pretty solutions. It's not nice to participate in ethnic cleansing, but it's happening anyway. It's the best option.

Jan VanDenBerg

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» RE: partition skeptic Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: the Lincolnfan paradigm? Posted by: Ripcord

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. . . military tar baby . . . or: like a flies against a window pane . . .
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Jul 19, 2007 5:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
. . . the bush policy continues sending troops to beat against the glass. trapped, there are left only flies dead on the sill. "Send in more flies!" that's the answer!

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Thanks to Americas war...
Posted by: Temporary on Jul 19, 2007 5:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
oil prices are now breaking RECORDS! Nice to know those boys didn't die for nothing!

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» Or it just might be Posted by: Lloyd Drako

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Seems to me that the war is being won on most accounts
Posted by: Illiteratilumen on Jul 19, 2007 6:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To claim that the U.S. is losing the war requires that one accepts the reasons for the war given to the public by our officials at face value. If we are, in fact, there to bring peace to the region then, yes, we are losing. If we are, in fact, working to establish a stable government to unify Iraqis Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish populations then yes, we are losing. If we are fighting "them" over there so we don't have to fight "them" over here, then we are treading water at best. If Iraq is the endgame and the U.S. has no further geopolitical plans for the region then yes, we are losing.

If one rejects the reasons given by our leaders (and not just Bush, either) for the American presence in Iraq as completely false then one can come to the conclusion that the United States is really doing quite well. Did we overthrow a government that is hostile to American business interests? Check. Did we destabilize a population that is generally unsupportive of western business interests? Check. Did we establish a new paradigm for the use of force in the region? Check. Did we establish a well-entrenched position from which to project American military power all over a region that happens to have the largest reserves of strategic resources on the planet? Check.

Looks to me like we're right on track.

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» RE: You got it absolutely right! Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» Yep. Posted by: justaguy

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The Winners, the losers, and the oblivious
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus on Jul 19, 2007 6:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First the losers:
1. Iraqis - NOT a single suicide bombing before the US invasion; Now they have to live with every day; Over 700,000 Iraqis dead as a direct result of this invasion plus another 2 million displaced;
2. US soldiers & their families - Cannon fodder for the neocon-corporate cabal; Indoctrinated into believing that they are fighting for a higher cause'

The Oblivious - Americans who know more about the American Idol then how their government works which is 'A government of the special interests, for the special interests, by the special interests'...Vietnam should have put an end to whole war-crime enterprise but where a handful of big corporations control most of the US media (Newscorp, GE, etc), how could Americans be getting any objective news;

The Winners -
1. American corporate interests - As the war goes from bad to worse, Corporate profits have gone through the roof; Not bad at all for war profiteers;
2. Israel - With world attention focused on Iraq, Israel has continued the slow ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and more land grab; But this isn't enough for the colonial, apartheid state, Iran is next on its target;
Israel's dream of having small fragmented arab/muslim states along ethnic and sectarian lines so it can create 'Eretz Yisrael' is now within reach;

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is there any possibility for marshal law?
Posted by: andy on Jul 19, 2007 6:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
all GWB needs to do is declare marshal law. This will allow him to send in enough forces to quickly wipe out these courageous insurgents. Under Democracy a powerful country can never win an assymmetric conflict.

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a good reality check
Posted by: solrev on Jul 19, 2007 6:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This was one of the best articles about the realities on the ground in Iraq I have read. However, al-Qaeda is mentioned far too often. When we leave and the warlords take over Iraq, al-Qaeda will have no dogs in the hunt. The enemy of my enemy is my friend sustains al-Qaeda at this time. If it were I, I would arm the warlords to the hilt, broker a cease-fire and get the hell out. Iran, Syria, al-Qaeda or any other outside influence can only back one of the real players in Iraq. We could eliminate outside influences, except for us, keep the playing field even and let the games begin. I think one would be amazed at how fast the people could create a nation acceptable to all the people when everyone perceives them selves operating from a position of strength.

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Lesee, where do I start?
Posted by: willymack on Jul 19, 2007 7:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, yeah, the 2000 "election". The minute our people allowed the neothugs to steal the presidency from Al Gore- AND GET AWAY WITH IT-we were in for bad times. The power(s) that be are not good people, folks, not by any stretch of the imagination. Good things for ordinary people will NOT be forthcoming from them. This might not be so bad if ANYONE in this criminal gang had a trace of morality, compassion, sense of fairness, or concern for us. It's all too obvious that nobody in this regime does. We can go on about what incompetent nitwits our "leaders" are, and how they lost the Iraq fiasco, but in doing so we must take into account what they've actually accomplished there, namely the theft of Iraqi oil, and an intimidating presence in the region for the foreseeable future. These were the REAL reasons for our misadventure there. The fact that it appears to us to be a dismal failure doesn't change the reality that the war profits keep right on rolling in, along with kickbacks to the bushies. It also doesn't change the fact that Congress and the American people don't have the stomach to challenge the evil that is the bush regime. Are the neothugs willing to relenquish power in 2009? Given the past events, it's not bloody likely.

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Forget Iraq, Iran is the next country to be invaded
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus on Jul 19, 2007 8:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
by the Zionist-Oil consortium known as the US government.

Few days back U.S. Senate unanimously declared that Iran was committing acts of war against the United States: a 97-0 vote to give George W. Bush a clear and unmistakable casus belli for attacking Iran. This resolution was sponsored by Lieberman, and supported by all of the Dem senators.

The Lieberman resolution ignores what has been reported about the nationality of foreign fighters in Iraq. In 2005 the Center for Strategic International Studies, chaired by former senator Sam Nunn, found that 20,18,17,15, 13 and 12% of foreign fighters--a total of 95% of foreign fighters--came from Algeria, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia respectively (see: http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0923/dailyUpdate.html).
Recently the LA Times reported that most of the foreign fighters in Iraq are from Saudi Arabia (see: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/)
For all the corruption and tyranny of the mullah regime in Iran, it is predominantly Sunni foreign fighters (Saudis) that are killing US soldiers.
Why isn’t there a resolution condemning Saudis? Why Iran?
And what does it say about US government’s control by special interest?
One thing it shows is that US ruling elite doesn’t give a shit about the soldiers used as cannon fodder, ‘cause if they really wanted to save the US soldiers they would be taking Saudis to task.

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» If the U.S. hits Iran... Posted by: Whitecliff

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Fooled enough of the people enough of the time
Posted by: Bic Pentameter on Jul 19, 2007 8:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If there is one lesson we should have learned from the post cold-war period, it's that it certainly is possible for politicians to fool enough of the people enough of the time to bring about nearly ireversible and cynically opportunistic changes in a very big way.

The american public has enough interest to learn sound bites (we'll stand down when they stand up; these are the same enemies that attacked us on 9/11, etc) and decides on their gut instincts or level of trust in a leader. Meanwhile, we have the best government that money can buy - which is the same as the biggest crock a bunch of rankly opportunistic hypocrits can sell as a good deal.

Getting the people that attacked us, finding weapons of mass distruction which were proven to exist, and all that rot. There were some that doubted, but I can tell you that in my own workplace voicing dissent in 2003 resulted in being viewed as anti-american. There were several times that I spoke up and everyone moved away.

I was against the war then, and think we did it in a cynical manner with regard to Iraqi society. But I don't think we should leave now. I think the honorable thing to do is replace our leadership and find better ways to deal with the problems. Bush's mind is too narrow to do anything very much different.

I can't say what a better way would look like, but it would probably more resemble outreach and assistance than authority. Grassroots organization, perhaps. And acknowledgement before the world that we need and want to develop a better approach.

And above all no shell game with the oil.

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Yeah--THOSE people! THEY lost Iraq!!
Posted by: zooeyhall on Jul 19, 2007 9:13 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are the Republicans and the right-wing going to turn the inevitable skiddadle from Iraq--to their advantage by using using it to smear democrats, the anti-war movement, "liberals", gays, social democracy activists, women's rights activists, etc. etc?

I mean this has all happened before. Remember the "who lost China?" drumbeat of the fifties?

On an even more sinister and deeper level: will it be a situation like that which existed in Germany after WWI? Thousands of embittered war vets ready to listen to the "stab in the back" message.

My blood runs cold.

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The ending credits
Posted by: Temporary on Jul 19, 2007 10:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Say...

goodbye

to the...

"Superpower"

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Why Bush’s troop surge will fail.
Posted by: HughScott on Jul 19, 2007 10:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to Army doctriine co-authored by General Petraeus, a successful “clear, hold & build” counter-insurgency strategy requires at least 20 combat troops for every 1,000 civilians in the contested area.

For Baghdad’s six million residents, the preferred ratio means 120,000 soldiers and Marines would be needed to secure the city, but Petraeus only has 20,000.

That’s eight GIs for a suburban population of 10,000 Muslims. Subtract half for defending the in-city station where the surge force is based and the number winning the hearts and minds in Baghdad drops to just FOUR troops per 10,000.

Yeah, that will work! Who is Bush kidding, anyway?

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» RE: but numbers mean nothing Posted by: Ripcord

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This article contains a blatant falsehood, reported as truth.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jul 19, 2007 12:42 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here it is:
"These steps include an oil revenue-sharing law (to ensure that the oil-poor Sunni regions get their share of revenue)"

Bull, bull and more bull. Once again, the 'oil law' is portrayed as a reveue-sharing measure when the reality is that this law is all about transferring control of Iraqi oil to Western oil and oil services corporations including Exxon, Shell, BP, Halliburton, Flour and ConocoPhillips.

War pimp General Petraeus is also an advocate of the oil law, which shows what his true affiliation is. Here's a Petraeus quote:

"The entire government does need to come to grips with some of this very tough legislation. I think the dog closest to the sled is the hydrocarbon law, as it's called. It really has to do with the distribution of the oil revenues. Iraq is generating enormous oil wealth on a daily basis, a yearly basis, and it needs to distribute those -- it has committed in the law that was approved by the Council of Ministers that those revenues would be distributed equitably to all Iraqis.

Right. It's all about getting the oil wealth to the Iraqi people in a fair and equitable manner. What a load of crap. What a slimy, dishonest General.

Is it any surprise that by and large, the NYT covers this story up? Take a look at their board of directors. See William Kennard? He also is a managing director of the Carlyle Group (and that's just one example), which profited immensely from Bush's "War on Terror".

Historians will certainly look back on this war as a desperate attempt by US and British based interests to control the oil reserves of Iraq, in an era of tightening oil supplies. Every once in a while a few trickles get through, however. Take this, for example:

AMY GOODMAN: You talk about the so-called defeats in Vietnam and Iraq and what they mean for corporations.

JOHN PERKINS: Yeah, well, that’s -- yeah, we, you and I, look at them as defeats, perhaps, and certainly anybody who lost a child or a sibling or a spouse in these countries look at them as disasters, as defeats, but the corporations made a huge amount of money off Vietnam, the military industry, huge corporations, the construction companies. And, of course, they’re doing it in a very, very big way in Iraq. So the corporatocracy, the people that are in fact insisting that our young men and women continue to go to Iraq and fight, they’re making a tremendous amount of money. These are not failures for them; they’re successes from a very strong economic standpoint. And I know that sounds cynical. I am cynical about these things. I’ve been there. I’ve seen it. And, you know, we must learn not to put up with that anymore. All of us.


There you have it. It's not cynicism - it's called realism - as in what is really happening, what the real motivations for this war were, and so on. Unfortunately, the US corporate media has become little more than the propaganda arm of the military-industrial complex, and they refuse to discuss this issue in any detail.

The closest most politicians will come to discussing the fact that the Iraq war is an oil grab, or a move to support US currency, is to say "we must defend our interests in the region". That's the accepted code phrase for "we need to control Iraqi oil in order to keep the value of the dollar up".

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» Four laws in all Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Call it what it is: an occupation
Posted by: duck-lady on Jul 19, 2007 12:59 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We really must lose the "war" frame that the conservatives have been using and start calling this quagmire in Iraq what it really is: an occupation. Everyone knows that you can't win or lose an occupation. You can only continue it or end it.

Most of the so-called insurgents are Iraqi citizens fighting against a foreign occupying force. Which is exactly what most of us would do if our country was invaded by an arrogant superpower intent on stealing our natural resources. I'm sure in Iraq, the insurgents are known as 'patriots.'

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the fallout of Valerie Plame's lawsuit proves....
Posted by: eosrk on Jul 19, 2007 1:28 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that the executive branch, along with the rest of them clods, are above the law, period!

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Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth.
Posted by: aka_bozo on Jul 19, 2007 2:11 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You liberals have no idea how lucky you are this war was started.

Think back eight years… The red-state loser white-trash were in near-revolt over what “those people” did to them with the help of the “Demoncrat Party”.

The people with the mean imaginary friend were electing fascist morons to Congress.

The officers in the military were openly critical of a president that got a blow-job and disgraced god’s favorite country.

NOW, you’ve got a war which is demoralizing and killing the people MOST dangerous to your socialist way of thinking; the fascist-voting peasant population. The military will be demoralized for a decade (their dicks made small, again, by an “inferior race”) . The god nitwits are wondering why their imaginary friend told them to vote for a frat-boy. And - AND - the liberals are complaining?! Jezzz….

If the Democrats and their liberal supporters had ANY brains at all, you’d be funding a Republican president for the next election. The Republican upper-class is KILLING the kids of the red-state loser-class - the NEXT generation of fascist voters - and YOU are complaining about it!

Amazing.

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REPUBLICAN WARMONGERS
Posted by: Zizumara on Jul 19, 2007 6:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
REPUBLICAN WARMONGERS. Nuff said.

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» Not Republican...CAPITALIST Posted by: Whitecliff

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Postponing the Day of Reckoning
Posted by: dayahka on Jul 19, 2007 8:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many people seem to think that George is a dumb fool who got the US into a bad war. No one seems to see that George was trying to save the "American way of life," a way of life based on plentiful and continuous supplies of cheap oil. The American people, all of them, left, right, center, and nowhere are responsible for the Iraq war.

Gaining control of oil supplies is the key. However, no one is talking about this. The presidential candidates and the media stay away from any mention of the energy problems, seemingly thinking that affordable medical care, abortion, immigration, litmus tests for judges, etc. are the real issues, when they aren't.

Staying in or pulling out of Iraq is not going to solve the energy issue. No matter what is done with Iraq, nothing can hide the fact of the decline of the US empire and of the American way of life. It doesn't matter whether you agree with or support Bush or not, for the costs of the Iraq war pale into insignificance when compared to the costs of re-building the American infrastructure from scratch and changing the entire lifestyle of the country. But no one wants to talk about the real issues; everyone would rather dump on Bush and talk about Iraq or what's-her-name's stay in jail.

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The author lies for big oil!
Posted by: Jersey Devil on Jul 19, 2007 8:51 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another misleading explaination for the "oil revenue-sharing law (to ensure that the oil-poor Sunni regions get their share of revenue)" when the law gives 80+% of the Iraqi oil profits to US corporations. So Our Blood for Their Oil has been George W's plan all along.

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We have won and lost
Posted by: chuckrightmire on Jul 19, 2007 10:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Iraq "war" is over. We won. On the day that the statue of Saddam was toppled and his army gave up, we won what was a "war." What we have been involved in ever since (and losing) is an insurgency and a civil war that we cannot impact. The Civil War, which we did a great deal to exacerbate, will continue after we are gone, even if it is 100 years. The insurgency cannot be fought by regular armies. A regular army hates to lose people in "terror" attacks. When it fights an enemy that cares not how many people it loses, it will never win without draconian measures that we have never been in favor of: prison, torture, the iron first (Oh, yes...).

And this is the 93rd year of a war that started in August 1914. It was deepened by our problems with communism and by the inability of the victors of WWI, particularly the French and English, to think any way but colonially and vindictively after that war. And now, in our changing world that has gone from the industrial age through the technological and information ages to the biological and beyond, we are needing to come up with new mores and new approaches as Europe did after the 100 years war, only we have to do it on a worldwide basis. The world we pass on to our children and grandchildren will have changed far more than our great grandfathers could have imagined. We must adapt to that world or we will submit to another dark age as we come out of our current war that may last more than 100 years. It will take attitudes and not arms to win this war.

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War is, we ain't!
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Jul 20, 2007 4:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The internet is replete with anti-war stuff and more than enough facts to indict most of Washington. So what? Bush and his crowd want war and IT IS and it WILL BE. We now learn that the War on Terror must be fought someplace and Iraq is as good a venue as any. Huh? Pelosi and Reed say wait until 2009....we'll get on top of this. Well, 11/06 has come and gone and what we voted for will not happen because WE AIN'T dear friends and until WE ARE nobody is going to pay attention to us. Who will lead us? Clinton, Obama, Biden....ugh! But what about Giuliani, Romney, McCain or, oh boy, Fred Thompson....triple ugh. Take a look around you and check out who is seeking re-election in 08 and who opposes....quintuple ugh. March on Cindy and let me know if you find a pulse or room temperature IQ when you reach the hallowed halls of Congress. We ain't brethren and we ain't armed with the weapons or empowerment to change it. War is, we ain't and if we make too much of a fuss they will simply aim the weapons at us, the extended band of terrorists!

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The Logic of greed
Posted by: ray burchard on Jul 21, 2007 2:07 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To believe the Republican hostile corporate takeover of Iraqi oil was a war to instill a middle east sense of community through corporate America's form of democracy, capitalism's unbriddled greed. To a tent dwelling, camel herding culture with a tribal, nomad mentality (separatist solipsism) going back thousands of years, who's idea of innovation is feeding camels sterno to produce self lighting barbecue bricketts.

All topped off with the hopes of a corporate American prosperity through free oil, the value of reconstruction and developing a corporate American aftermarket allegiance.

This is just gross stupidity and the kind of ill-logical resolve that comes from using a Hebrew reformulated form of mathematics, designed specifically to facilitate commerce, as the foundational basis for all logical resolve, fucking crazy....and the greed goes on.

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» Hebrewnomics Posted by: Whitecliff

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War
Posted by: fanny666 on Jul 23, 2007 4:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
War

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Alternet Comments:

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How Lost Is This War?
Posted by: Tom Degan on Jul 19, 2007 12:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This war was lost the night the half-witted frat boy from Crawford, Texas made the stupidest foreign policy blunder in American history by invading what was (like it or not) the sovereign nation of Iraq.

How lost is this war?

Very lost, indeed. In point of fact, this is a war that never could have been won. George W. Bush looked at Desert Storm in 1991 and, confidently, stupidly said to himself, "If Daddy kin do it, Ah kin do it". Words that would eventually blow up in his twisted little face.

How lost is this war?

Completely lost. That's why the First Fool desperately wants to hand it over to the next administration - an administration he knows damn well will be a Democratic one. He could end it tomorrow - but for purely political and egotistical reasons he won't. He could save untold thousands of lives but that would make him the second president in a generation to lose a war. No. Let the Dems take the blame.

There's "compassionate conservatism" for you.

Pray for peace.

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan

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» RE: How Lost Is This War? Posted by: Abushite
» Depends On Your Definition Of "Lost" Posted by: malcolmartin

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The war will continue until people stand up
Posted by: IntnsRed on Jul 19, 2007 12:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm trying not to be pessimistic, believe me. And I know the US will eventually lose in Iraq -- that's clear.

But this war will drag on for some time. The US ruling classes want control of Mid-East and Central Asian oil, and they need it to keep the shell which is now the US economy sputtering along -- long term consequences and blowback be damned.

Why should Bush and Cheney stop? Because of whining liberals in Congress? Because of a compliant corporate media who feels "duty bound" to parrot their lies? Because the latest hundred dead Iraqi civilians is "too many" dead compared to the hundreds of thousands that they've already killed?

The corporate mass media has been masterful at obfuscating the conflict -- millions still believe that Saddam Hussein was in league with Bin Laden. Like the "flexible" history of Orwell's "1984" where Big Brother rewrites history constantly to suit Big Brother's latest propaganda, so now does the US invoke "Al Queda in Iraq" and the fear of what will happen if the US pulls out of Iraq as reasons for the war -- the initial, planned and deliberate lies about Iraqi WMD have been flushed down the Orwellian Memory Hole.

The Democrats are spineless to the point of being useless. The Democrats' corporate backers/funders want nothing more than to use the Iraq war as an electoral stick. The anti-war movement is timid and eviscerated.

Sorry, that's the truth. The ugly truth is the war will continue...

...unless people get off their asses, lose their timidity, organize, get into the streets, raise hell, and start to make hard and fast links to the corporate policies and economic factors that drive the war in Iraq and which are undermining US liberties at home.

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» RE: amen Posted by: Ripcord

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The ending credits
Posted by: Temporary on Jul 19, 2007 1:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The war is OVER!

America is BROKE!

And we have a WINNER!

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» RE: The ending credits Posted by: Tom Degan

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But lets remember...
Posted by: Temporary on Jul 19, 2007 1:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that Americas boys didn't die for "nothing" now did they?

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Kurdistan v. Turkey...
Posted by: brotherjonah on Jul 19, 2007 3:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Only, it wasn't limited to those two powers..

Ever.

The U.S. and Turkey performed joint maneuvers against the Kurds many times in the past nearly 30 years, the time frame for which I have most reliable second hand information.

That's the time that I've had, in my ADULT life, friends and family in the military in the region.

Also in the same time frame, the U.S. and the Shah of Iran had joint ventures against Kurdistan. The Shah and Russia and Turks had joint military ventures against the Kurds.
Turkey and Iraq had joint military ventures against the Kurds.

Just as the U.S. and Soviets might not have had concurrent Joint Military Ventures against the Kurds, for obvious reasons, And Iraq and Iran might not have had concurrent JMVs against the Kurds, the level of animosity against them and the level of the effort which SOMETIMES amounted to nothing less than an extermination campaign, and the not-quite-seamless jigsaw puzzle of the military coalitions that took aim at Kurdistan....

Well, to wrap up that disgustingly long and almost unreadable concept, (Warning: I did say ALMOST)... I have to provide two near-anecdotal references...

These were provided by people who were very close to me.

The first mention made was a joke they thought extremely funny, only it describes a real incident in which they took part.

In the late 1990s, their Air National Guard unit was TDY in Turkey, providing relief for a Regular Air Force unit. Patrolling the Northern No-Fly Zone. As the author mentioned, there were no Iraqi soldiers allowed in Kurdistan at all since 1996.

Take into account that at this time, the Air Force and both the Bush administrations and the Clinton administration (bush41 and bush43) repeated the claim that no ground targets were ever attacked without first taking hostile action against the American Patrols.

On to the incident, one of their pilots shot up what they termed a flock of sheep, they were laughing that the pilot was feeling rather "Sheepish" because he was having a "baaaaad day".

A couple more factors: F16 Fighters are armed with the Vulcan drum fed electric Gatling gun with a cyclic rate of 7200 rounds per minute. That's a120 shots per second. They are also armed with the Appropriately Named Hellfire missiles. Their targeting systems are the Pride and Joy of the Air Force.

There is no fucking way that somebody would escape from its deadly spell once he is targeted.

Only, Domestic Sheep, you know, they have Human shepherds to care for them. Their survival instincts have been drained out of them through thousands of years of breeding. They can't even give birth without human intervention. So that wasn't just a flock of sheep, it was a couple of Kurdish men as well.

The other incident happened in Turkey. My brother-in-law in a not so subtle thread (That's not a threat --it's a PROMISE) (gotta love it when they try to talk Hollywood to me) told me "You know what they do to people like YOU in Turkey?"
--meaning Anarchists--
"I saw the Turkish cops just shoot one down and send him home in a body bag, no questions asked"

Of course, his reason for being in Turkey was to provide Materiel, Logistical and Tactical support for the Turkish government, so that suspected Anarchists and other groups wouldn't be able to evade or resist or in some other way prevent the Turkish pigs from murdering them, In other words, he was there to basically hold the guy down while his Pig buddies shot him.

Giving all those factors, and the fact that the U.S. actively participated in the extermination of Kurds, how am I supposed to believe that the U.S. supplied Nerve Gas which was used against the Kurds not also U.S. authorized for use against the Kurds?

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To finish the story...
Posted by: brotherjonah on Jul 19, 2007 3:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ran a bit long, apologies all around...

The F-16 v. Sheep routine took place when the pilot's mission was supposed to be PROTECTING the Kurds.


Now the Turks, as of yesterday, after a month of buildups along the northern border, a buildup the White Only House and the Pentagram both deny, the Turks have launched attacks within Iraq.



In our attempts to manage NATO we had at least one incident, during the Cyprus war, when the Turks and Greeks, both NATO allies. extended their war to Ft Bliss Texas.



Where there were training garrisons from both nations. Shots fired type fighting.



On a U.S. Army base, at the time the largest Army base in America.



Looking at the lovely pattern of success we have had "controlling" our puppet states, Kurdistan might be the best shot at continued U.S. presence in the region,



But, that's a good thing exactly HOW?

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Biden and I have been calling for partition for two years now
Posted by: janvdb on Jul 19, 2007 5:09 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Bushies want a central government, because it would be weak and dependent. You're our puppet or you die!

A Shiite south, a Sunni west, a Kurdish north -- they'd be popular, self-protecting states.

They wouldn't need us.

Which is why we didn't take the Yugoslav Option two years ago.

If we had a conference, drew lines, helped people re-locate, monitored those lines by satelite and provided prompt help to anyone who was invaded across those lines -- we could get out now without the bloodshed Bushie keeps blandishing.

There are no easy options, no pretty solutions. It's not nice to participate in ethnic cleansing, but it's happening anyway. It's the best option.

Jan VanDenBerg

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» RE: partition skeptic Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: the Lincolnfan paradigm? Posted by: Ripcord

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. . . military tar baby . . . or: like a flies against a window pane . . .
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Jul 19, 2007 5:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
. . . the bush policy continues sending troops to beat against the glass. trapped, there are left only flies dead on the sill. "Send in more flies!" that's the answer!

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Thanks to Americas war...
Posted by: Temporary on Jul 19, 2007 5:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
oil prices are now breaking RECORDS! Nice to know those boys didn't die for nothing!

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» Or it just might be Posted by: Lloyd Drako

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Seems to me that the war is being won on most accounts
Posted by: Illiteratilumen on Jul 19, 2007 6:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To claim that the U.S. is losing the war requires that one accepts the reasons for the war given to the public by our officials at face value. If we are, in fact, there to bring peace to the region then, yes, we are losing. If we are, in fact, working to establish a stable government to unify Iraqis Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish populations then yes, we are losing. If we are fighting "them" over there so we don't have to fight "them" over here, then we are treading water at best. If Iraq is the endgame and the U.S. has no further geopolitical plans for the region then yes, we are losing.

If one rejects the reasons given by our leaders (and not just Bush, either) for the American presence in Iraq as completely false then one can come to the conclusion that the United States is really doing quite well. Did we overthrow a government that is hostile to American business interests? Check. Did we destabilize a population that is generally unsupportive of western business interests? Check. Did we establish a new paradigm for the use of force in the region? Check. Did we establish a well-entrenched position from which to project American military power all over a region that happens to have the largest reserves of strategic resources on the planet? Check.

Looks to me like we're right on track.

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» RE: You got it absolutely right! Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» Yep. Posted by: justaguy

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The Winners, the losers, and the oblivious
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus on Jul 19, 2007 6:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First the losers:
1. Iraqis - NOT a single suicide bombing before the US invasion; Now they have to live with every day; Over 700,000 Iraqis dead as a direct result of this invasion plus another 2 million displaced;
2. US soldiers & their families - Cannon fodder for the neocon-corporate cabal; Indoctrinated into believing that they are fighting for a higher cause'

The Oblivious - Americans who know more about the American Idol then how their government works which is 'A government of the special interests, for the special interests, by the special interests'...Vietnam should have put an end to whole war-crime enterprise but where a handful of big corporations control most of the US media (Newscorp, GE, etc), how could Americans be getting any objective news;

The Winners -
1. American corporate interests - As the war goes from bad to worse, Corporate profits have gone through the roof; Not bad at all for war profiteers;
2. Israel - With world attention focused on Iraq, Israel has continued the slow ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and more land grab; But this isn't enough for the colonial, apartheid state, Iran is next on its target;
Israel's dream of having small fragmented arab/muslim states along ethnic and sectarian lines so it can create 'Eretz Yisrael' is now within reach;

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is there any possibility for marshal law?
Posted by: andy on Jul 19, 2007 6:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
all GWB needs to do is declare marshal law. This will allow him to send in enough forces to quickly wipe out these courageous insurgents. Under Democracy a powerful country can never win an assymmetric conflict.

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a good reality check
Posted by: solrev on Jul 19, 2007 6:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This was one of the best articles about the realities on the ground in Iraq I have read. However, al-Qaeda is mentioned far too often. When we leave and the warlords take over Iraq, al-Qaeda will have no dogs in the hunt. The enemy of my enemy is my friend sustains al-Qaeda at this time. If it were I, I would arm the warlords to the hilt, broker a cease-fire and get the hell out. Iran, Syria, al-Qaeda or any other outside influence can only back one of the real players in Iraq. We could eliminate outside influences, except for us, keep the playing field even and let the games begin. I think one would be amazed at how fast the people could create a nation acceptable to all the people when everyone perceives them selves operating from a position of strength.

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Lesee, where do I start?
Posted by: willymack on Jul 19, 2007 7:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, yeah, the 2000 "election". The minute our people allowed the neothugs to steal the presidency from Al Gore- AND GET AWAY WITH IT-we were in for bad times. The power(s) that be are not good people, folks, not by any stretch of the imagination. Good things for ordinary people will NOT be forthcoming from them. This might not be so bad if ANYONE in this criminal gang had a trace of morality, compassion, sense of fairness, or concern for us. It's all too obvious that nobody in this regime does. We can go on about what incompetent nitwits our "leaders" are, and how they lost the Iraq fiasco, but in doing so we must take into account what they've actually accomplished there, namely the theft of Iraqi oil, and an intimidating presence in the region for the foreseeable future. These were the REAL reasons for our misadventure there. The fact that it appears to us to be a dismal failure doesn't change the reality that the war profits keep right on rolling in, along with kickbacks to the bushies. It also doesn't change the fact that Congress and the American people don't have the stomach to challenge the evil that is the bush regime. Are the neothugs willing to relenquish power in 2009? Given the past events, it's not bloody likely.

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Forget Iraq, Iran is the next country to be invaded
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus on Jul 19, 2007 8:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
by the Zionist-Oil consortium known as the US government.

Few days back U.S. Senate unanimously declared that Iran was committing acts of war against the United States: a 97-0 vote to give George W. Bush a clear and unmistakable casus belli for attacking Iran. This resolution was sponsored by Lieberman, and supported by all of the Dem senators.

The Lieberman resolution ignores what has been reported about the nationality of foreign fighters in Iraq. In 2005 the Center for Strategic International Studies, chaired by former senator Sam Nunn, found that 20,18,17,15, 13 and 12% of foreign fighters--a total of 95% of foreign fighters--came from Algeria, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia respectively (see: http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0923/dailyUpdate.html).
Recently the LA Times reported that most of the foreign fighters in Iraq are from Saudi Arabia (see: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/)
For all the corruption and tyranny of the mullah regime in Iran, it is predominantly Sunni foreign fighters (Saudis) that are killing US soldiers.
Why isn’t there a resolution condemning Saudis? Why Iran?
And what does it say about US government’s control by special interest?
One thing it shows is that US ruling elite doesn’t give a shit about the soldiers used as cannon fodder, ‘cause if they really wanted to save the US soldiers they would be taking Saudis to task.

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» If the U.S. hits Iran... Posted by: Whitecliff

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Fooled enough of the people enough of the time
Posted by: Bic Pentameter on Jul 19, 2007 8:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If there is one lesson we should have learned from the post cold-war period, it's that it certainly is possible for politicians to fool enough of the people enough of the time to bring about nearly ireversible and cynically opportunistic changes in a very big way.

The american public has enough interest to learn sound bites (we'll stand down when they stand up; these are the same enemies that attacked us on 9/11, etc) and decides on their gut instincts or level of trust in a leader. Meanwhile, we have the best government that money can buy - which is the same as the biggest crock a bunch of rankly opportunistic hypocrits can sell as a good deal.

Getting the people that attacked us, finding weapons of mass distruction which were proven to exist, and all that rot. There were some that doubted, but I can tell you that in my own workplace voicing dissent in 2003 resulted in being viewed as anti-american. There were several times that I spoke up and everyone moved away.

I was against the war then, and think we did it in a cynical manner with regard to Iraqi society. But I don't think we should leave now. I think the honorable thing to do is replace our leadership and find better ways to deal with the problems. Bush's mind is too narrow to do anything very much different.

I can't say what a better way would look like, but it would probably more resemble outreach and assistance than authority. Grassroots organization, perhaps. And acknowledgement before the world that we need and want to develop a better approach.

And above all no shell game with the oil.

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Yeah--THOSE people! THEY lost Iraq!!
Posted by: zooeyhall on Jul 19, 2007 9:13 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are the Republicans and the right-wing going to turn the inevitable skiddadle from Iraq--to their advantage by using using it to smear democrats, the anti-war movement, "liberals", gays, social democracy activists, women's rights activists, etc. etc?

I mean this has all happened before. Remember the "who lost China?" drumbeat of the fifties?

On an even more sinister and deeper level: will it be a situation like that which existed in Germany after WWI? Thousands of embittered war vets ready to listen to the "stab in the back" message.

My blood runs cold.

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The ending credits
Posted by: Temporary on Jul 19, 2007 10:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Say...

goodbye

to the...

"Superpower"

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Why Bush’s troop surge will fail.
Posted by: HughScott on Jul 19, 2007 10:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to Army doctriine co-authored by General Petraeus, a successful “clear, hold & build” counter-insurgency strategy requires at least 20 combat troops for every 1,000 civilians in the contested area.

For Baghdad’s six million residents, the preferred ratio means 120,000 soldiers and Marines would be needed to secure the city, but Petraeus only has 20,000.

That’s eight GIs for a suburban population of 10,000 Muslims. Subtract half for defending the in-city station where the surge force is based and the number winning the hearts and minds in Baghdad drops to just FOUR troops per 10,000.

Yeah, that will work! Who is Bush kidding, anyway?

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» RE: but numbers mean nothing Posted by: Ripcord

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This article contains a blatant falsehood, reported as truth.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jul 19, 2007 12:42 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here it is:
"These steps include an oil revenue-sharing law (to ensure that the oil-poor Sunni regions get their share of revenue)"

Bull, bull and more bull. Once again, the 'oil law' is portrayed as a reveue-sharing measure when the reality is that this law is all about transferring control of Iraqi oil to Western oil and oil services corporations including Exxon, Shell, BP, Halliburton, Flour and ConocoPhillips.

War pimp General Petraeus is also an advocate of the oil law, which shows what his true affiliation is. Here's a Petraeus quote:

"The entire government does need to come to grips with some of this very tough legislation. I think the dog closest to the sled is the hydrocarbon law, as it's called. It really has to do with the distribution of the oil revenues. Iraq is generating enormous oil wealth on a daily basis, a yearly basis, and it needs to distribute those -- it has committed in the law that was approved by the Council of Ministers that those revenues would be distributed equitably to all Iraqis.

Right. It's all about getting the oil wealth to the Iraqi people in a fair and equitable manner. What a load of crap. What a slimy, dishonest General.

Is it any surprise that by and large, the NYT covers this story up? Take a look at their board of directors. See William Kennard? He also is a managing director of the Carlyle Group (and that's just one example), which profited immensely from Bush's "War on Terror".

Historians will certainly look back on this war as a desperate attempt by US and British based interests to control the oil reserves of Iraq, in an era of tightening oil supplies. Every once in a while a few trickles get through, however. Take this, for example:

AMY GOODMAN: You talk about the so-called defeats in Vietnam and Iraq and what they mean for corporations.

JOHN PERKINS: Yeah, well, that’s -- yeah, we, you and I, look at them as defeats, perhaps, and certainly anybody who lost a child or a sibling or a spouse in these countries look at them as disasters, as defeats, but the corporations made a huge amount of money off Vietnam, the military industry, huge corporations, the construction companies. And, of course, they’re doing it in a very, very big way in Iraq. So the corporatocracy, the people that are in fact insisting that our young men and women continue to go to Iraq and fight, they’re making a tremendous amount of money. These are not failures for them; they’re successes from a very strong economic standpoint. And I know that sounds cynical. I am cynical about these things. I’ve been there. I’ve seen it. And, you know, we must learn not to put up with that anymore. All of us.


There you have it. It's not cynicism - it's called realism - as in what is really happening, what the real motivations for this war were, and so on. Unfortunately, the US corporate media has become little more than the propaganda arm of the military-industrial complex, and they refuse to discuss this issue in any detail.

The closest most politicians will come to discussing the fact that the Iraq war is an oil grab, or a move to support US currency, is to say "we must defend our interests in the region". That's the accepted code phrase for "we need to control Iraqi oil in order to keep the value of the dollar up".

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» Four laws in all Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Call it what it is: an occupation
Posted by: duck-lady on Jul 19, 2007 12:59 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We really must lose the "war" frame that the conservatives have been using and start calling this quagmire in Iraq what it really is: an occupation. Everyone knows that you can't win or lose an occupation. You can only continue it or end it.

Most of the so-called insurgents are Iraqi citizens fighting against a foreign occupying force. Which is exactly what most of us would do if our country was invaded by an arrogant superpower intent on stealing our natural resources. I'm sure in Iraq, the insurgents are known as 'patriots.'

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the fallout of Valerie Plame's lawsuit proves....
Posted by: eosrk on Jul 19, 2007 1:28 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that the executive branch, along with the rest of them clods, are above the law, period!

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Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth.
Posted by: aka_bozo on Jul 19, 2007 2:11 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You liberals have no idea how lucky you are this war was started.

Think back eight years… The red-state loser white-trash were in near-revolt over what “those people” did to them with the help of the “Demoncrat Party”.

The people with the mean imaginary friend were electing fascist morons to Congress.

The officers in the military were openly critical of a president that got a blow-job and disgraced god’s favorite country.

NOW, you’ve got a war which is demoralizing and killing the people MOST dangerous to your socialist way of thinking; the fascist-voting peasant population. The military will be demoralized for a decade (their dicks made small, again, by an “inferior race”) . The god nitwits are wondering why their imaginary friend told them to vote for a frat-boy. And - AND - the liberals are complaining?! Jezzz….

If the Democrats and their liberal supporters had ANY brains at all, you’d be funding a Republican president for the next election. The Republican upper-class is KILLING the kids of the red-state loser-class - the NEXT generation of fascist voters - and YOU are complaining about it!

Amazing.

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REPUBLICAN WARMONGERS
Posted by: Zizumara on Jul 19, 2007 6:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
REPUBLICAN WARMONGERS. Nuff said.

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» Not Republican...CAPITALIST Posted by: Whitecliff

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Postponing the Day of Reckoning
Posted by: dayahka on Jul 19, 2007 8:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many people seem to think that George is a dumb fool who got the US into a bad war. No one seems to see that George was trying to save the "American way of life," a way of life based on plentiful and continuous supplies of cheap oil. The American people, all of them, left, right, center, and nowhere are responsible for the Iraq war.

Gaining control of oil supplies is the key. However, no one is talking about this. The presidential candidates and the media stay away from any mention of the energy problems, seemingly thinking that affordable medical care, abortion, immigration, litmus tests for judges, etc. are the real issues, when they aren't.

Staying in or pulling out of Iraq is not going to solve the energy issue. No matter what is done with Iraq, nothing can hide the fact of the decline of the US empire and of the American way of life. It doesn't matter whether you agree with or support Bush or not, for the costs of the Iraq war pale into insignificance when compared to the costs of re-building the American infrastructure from scratch and changing the entire lifestyle of the country. But no one wants to talk about the real issues; everyone would rather dump on Bush and talk about Iraq or what's-her-name's stay in jail.

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The author lies for big oil!
Posted by: Jersey Devil on Jul 19, 2007 8:51 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another misleading explaination for the "oil revenue-sharing law (to ensure that the oil-poor Sunni regions get their share of revenue)" when the law gives 80+% of the Iraqi oil profits to US corporations. So Our Blood for Their Oil has been George W's plan all along.

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We have won and lost
Posted by: chuckrightmire on Jul 19, 2007 10:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Iraq "war" is over. We won. On the day that the statue of Saddam was toppled and his army gave up, we won what was a "war." What we have been involved in ever since (and losing) is an insurgency and a civil war that we cannot impact. The Civil War, which we did a great deal to exacerbate, will continue after we are gone, even if it is 100 years. The insurgency cannot be fought by regular armies. A regular army hates to lose people in "terror" attacks. When it fights an enemy that cares not how many people it loses, it will never win without draconian measures that we have never been in favor of: prison, torture, the iron first (Oh, yes...).

And this is the 93rd year of a war that started in August 1914. It was deepened by our problems with communism and by the inability of the victors of WWI, particularly the French and English, to think any way but colonially and vindictively after that war. And now, in our changing world that has gone from the industrial age through the technological and information ages to the biological and beyond, we are needing to come up with new mores and new approaches as Europe did after the 100 years war, only we have to do it on a worldwide basis. The world we pass on to our children and grandchildren will have changed far more than our great grandfathers could have imagined. We must adapt to that world or we will submit to another dark age as we come out of our current war that may last more than 100 years. It will take attitudes and not arms to win this war.

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War is, we ain't!
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Jul 20, 2007 4:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The internet is replete with anti-war stuff and more than enough facts to indict most of Washington. So what? Bush and his crowd want war and IT IS and it WILL BE. We now learn that the War on Terror must be fought someplace and Iraq is as good a venue as any. Huh? Pelosi and Reed say wait until 2009....we'll get on top of this. Well, 11/06 has come and gone and what we voted for will not happen because WE AIN'T dear friends and until WE ARE nobody is going to pay attention to us. Who will lead us? Clinton, Obama, Biden....ugh! But what about Giuliani, Romney, McCain or, oh boy, Fred Thompson....triple ugh. Take a look around you and check out who is seeking re-election in 08 and who opposes....quintuple ugh. March on Cindy and let me know if you find a pulse or room temperature IQ when you reach the hallowed halls of Congress. We ain't brethren and we ain't armed with the weapons or empowerment to change it. War is, we ain't and if we make too much of a fuss they will simply aim the weapons at us, the extended band of terrorists!

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The Logic of greed
Posted by: ray burchard on Jul 21, 2007 2:07 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To believe the Republican hostile corporate takeover of Iraqi oil was a war to instill a middle east sense of community through corporate America's form of democracy, capitalism's unbriddled greed. To a tent dwelling, camel herding culture with a tribal, nomad mentality (separatist solipsism) going back thousands of years, who's idea of innovation is feeding camels sterno to produce self lighting barbecue bricketts.

All topped off with the hopes of a corporate American prosperity through free oil, the value of reconstruction and developing a corporate American aftermarket allegiance.

This is just gross stupidity and the kind of ill-logical resolve that comes from using a Hebrew reformulated form of mathematics, designed specifically to facilitate commerce, as the foundational basis for all logical resolve, fucking crazy....and the greed goes on.

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» Hebrewnomics Posted by: Whitecliff

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War
Posted by: fanny666 on Jul 23, 2007 4:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
War

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