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One-Third of Troops in Iraq Support Torture, Majority Condone Mistreating Innocent Civilians

By Winslow Wheeler, AlterNet. Posted May 24, 2007.


A recent study shows startling findings about the widespread abuse of Iraqi civilians by U.S. troops. When the "surge" fails, will we take a hard look at ourselves in the mirror?
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Two weeks ago, the press reported on the findings of a five-month-old study dealing with soldiers' ethics and mental health from the Office of the Surgeon General of the U.S. Army Medical Command. Some accounts focused on an alarming statistic in the executive summary of the report: 10 percent of the Soldiers and Marines interviewed reported "mistreating noncombatants (damaged/destroyed Iraqi property when not necessary or hit/kicked a noncombatant when not necessary)." The articles raised the specter of widespread mistreatment of Iraqi civilians by U.S. troops -- an issue darkly hinted at by previous -- but seemingly isolated -- reports of rape and murder, such as in Haditha, Iraq.

Some of the press accounts of the surgeon general's study, "Mental Health Advisory Team (MHAT) IV; Operation Iraqi Freedom 05-07," also reported the more detailed findings from its chapter on "Battlefield Ethics." The information became more disconcerting; the problems were clearly more serious and pervasive than the executive summary indicated:

  • "Only 47 percent of soldiers and only 38 percent of Marines agreed that noncombatants should be treated with dignity and respect."
  • "Well over a third of soldiers and Marines reported torture should be allowed, whether to save the life of a fellow soldier or Marine … or to obtain important information about insurgents…."
  • 28 percent of soldiers and 30 percent of Marines reported they had cursed and/or insulted Iraqi noncombatants in their presence.
  • 9 percent and 12 percent, respectively, reported damaging or destroying Iraqi property "when it was not necessary."
  • 4 percent and 7 percent, respectively, reported hitting or kicking a noncombatant "when it was not necessary.
  • The study also reports that only 55 percent of soldiers and just 40 percent of Marines would report a unit member injuring or killing "an innocent noncombatant," and just 43 percent and 30 percent, respectively, would report a unit member destroying or damaging private property.

It is notable that these are the responses the survey team received; there are probably more soldiers and Marines who may have been reluctant to respond completely and accurately to an Army questionnaire on such sensitive topics. Therefore, the data recorded should be regarded as a floor, not a ceiling.

Regardless of just how frequent the abuse may be beyond the survey results, these are descriptions of behaviors that can only alienate the Iraqi population against the U.S. military presence there, and against any among that population, including its politicians, who welcome or even tolerate our presence. It is not just that we are not winning; we are helping the enemy. When the historians explain why America lost the war in Iraq, this study should be prominent evidence.

Reacting to the surgeon general's devastating study, our commanding general in Iraq, David Petraeus, said he was "very concerned" and that he had been writing "a memorandum to our leaders and to our troopers to discuss these kinds of issues and to note that we can never sink to the level of the enemy" ("General to 'Re-Educate' Troops on Values," UPI, May 9, 2007). It is the kind of reaction one might expect from a politician being careful to offend no one (except Iraqis), or perhaps a bureaucrat who believes memoranda make the world go around.

If he read the entire study from the surgeon general, Petraeus probably hopes that no one else reads it. The study seeks to explain the reasons for our troops' abusive behavior, and that explanation casts devastating illumination on the logic of this war. It also provides a prospective explanation for why the "surge" of American troops in Iraq, which Petraeus has accepted as his mission, can only make things worse.

Page 38 of the surgeon general's study states that "soldiers who screened positive for a mental health problem (anxiety, depression or acute stress) were twice as likely to engage in unethical behavior (i.e., abuse of Iraqi civilians) compared to those soldiers who did not screen positive." Subsequent pages make the same point about Marines.

What causes the "anxiety, depression or acute stress" that can result in the abuse? For Army personnel, deployment tempo is a major factor: "Soldiers deployed to Iraq more than once were more likely to screen positive for acute stress," notes the report. And perhaps even more significantly, given the rotation schedule in Iraq: "Long deployment length [described as one year] continues to be the top concern for … soldiers."

The study recommended extending the period of time soldiers spend at home with their families to 18-36 months, while also decreasing the length of deployments in Iraq to under one year.

As the study noted, Marines typically deploy to Iraq for six or seven months, and the study found that "because of shorter deployments, Marines tend to have fewer deployment concerns" and the resultant stress from that cause (16). But the Marines engaged in the same "unethical" behavior toward Iraqi civilians. The study made it clear that Marines share other conditions with soldiers, especially involvement in combat.

The study categorized three levels of combat involvement: high, medium and low, as determined by how much time soldiers and Marines spent "outside the wire" of base camps, garrisons or the infamous "Green Zone" in Baghdad. The study found a "linear relationship between combat level and screening positive for anxiety, depression, acute stress and any mental health problem."


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See more stories tagged with: iraq, troops, mental health, ethics

Winslow T. Wheeler is the director of the Straus Military Reform Project at the Center for Defense Information in Washington, D.C.

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Time for a GENERAL STRIKE on Democrats
Posted by: Rune on May 24, 2007 1:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The smug Democrats who promised to hold Bush accountable and bring the troops home (and this article makes clear how long past time for that it is) are on the verge of sending another blank check for more war in the Middle East. They think that is the safe thing to do. Safe for their election prospects next year. Safe for their campaign contribution hustling this summer. Not safe for our troops, Iraqis, Iranians (more aircraft carriers started heading to the Gulf as soon as the Democrats announced the deal), and certainly not safe for the future of this country.

ENOUGH!

It's time to stop feeding these wolves in sheep's clothing until they learn to do our bidding, not that of war profiteers. That means:

No more campaign contributions
No more volunteering for them
No more cooperating with MoveOn, which acts as their echo chamber
And following and picketing them everywhere until they BRING THE TROOPS HOME!

They had their chance to lead. They failed us. They failed the country. And they have certainly failed our troops, even as they made self congratulating comments about making sure the troops have "their money." The money is not for the troops, it's being used to further fatten war profiteers that have already been handed billions upon billions in no bid contracts while our troops and private contractors come home in boxes or in broken condition. SHAME ON THEM.

Let's boycott these cowards until they get some backbone or we get rid of them in November 2008. Lives and what remains of our democracy are at stake.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Hear hear! Except.... Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Hear hear! Except.... Posted by: Truth_seeker
» RE: Hear hear! Except.... Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Hear hear! Except.... Posted by: DeltaDawn
» RE: Hear hear! Except.... Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» Right wing? Posted by: Illiteratilumen
Resign your commission
Posted by: AndyF on May 24, 2007 4:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From your postings it is obvious that you don't have a clue as to what the mission of the military is or how wars are really won. Killing people does not equal winning a war. You need to resign your commission and find a job that you are better qualified for.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

RE: What would Sun Tzu do?
Posted by: nebgirl on May 24, 2007 4:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is true you were not sent to Iraq to fix the open sewage, feed children or even to bring democracy, you were sent there to steal their oil. That makes you a thief. Stop blaming the Iraqis for the situation you are in and blame the true culprits, the U.S. government. You are being used by our government. If you don't like it then quit.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: What would Sun Tzu do? Posted by: mostacks
» RE: What would Sun Tzu do? Posted by: braxxian
» RE: What would Sun Tzu do? Posted by: mostacks
» RE: What would Sun Tzu do? Posted by: herdless
RE: What would Sun Tzu do?
Posted by: nebgirl on May 24, 2007 4:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is true you were not sent to Iraq to fix the open sewage, feed children or even to bring democracy, you were sent there to steal their oil. That makes you a thief. Stop blaming the Iraqis for the situation you are in and blame the true culprits, the U.S. government. You are being used by our government. If you don't like it then quit.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: What would Sun Tzu do? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Do you know anything at all? Posted by: Conservasaurus
Armed with Candy - flowers anyone!
Posted by: Conservasaurus on May 24, 2007 5:26 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is nothing new in this article at all..These kinds of behaviors have been going on for as a long as man waged war. You will find the same or worse actions in other wars. It's not a product of IRAQ

How could one expect a 20 year old marine or soldier to say lets not torture this poor soul even though he has info that might save one of our own.. Ask the mom of that poor soldier just found murdered how she feels about torture if it would have saved her son.

To use this study to suggest that this war is causing these feeling among our military is nonsense. We should be pulling out of Iraq because American lives should not be wasted on a country unwilling to help themselves. Not becasue this study suggest that not every soldier is Mother Teresa.

You send in military to "FIGHT" a war.. send in humantarians to help the population and pass out good will.. Dont degrade out military for doing what they are trained to do! - fight!

We cannot and should not be the policemen of the world - we should not be the first country people turn to when a crises demands enormous financial resources and aid. Our military should not be wasted in a conflict with no resolution and an outcome that in 10 years everyone will not even remember..

Liberals as well as Bush are at fault here.. OUR GREATL LEADERS - all of them - went on the war path and Bin Laden is still floating around and making threats to this country. THAT is where our military should be! Let the Iraqi's continue to kill each other if they so desire..it's not our concern!

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» RE: Armed with Candy - flowers anyone! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Armed with Candy - flowers anyone! Posted by: Conservasaurus
RE: What would Sun Tzu do?
Posted by: leafsong1 on May 24, 2007 6:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey, moron, nobody sent you there in the first place. If you were the slightest bit competent as a soldier you would already know that. There is no legal authority anywhere in the world to order you to participate in this massive warcrime. You weren't sent; YOU VOLUNTEERED. If you don't like it, come home yourself. But you won't come home because you do like it. You like shooting innocent people in the face; you think that's "fighting". On second thought, don't come home. You're not fit to be among us. Next time you get the urge to shoot somebody in the face, find a mirror.

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» RE: What would Sun Tzu do? Posted by: richholland
It's true, America is too soft to fight and win a war, look at the responses you've received!
Posted by: ateo on May 24, 2007 7:05 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a bunch of cowards living in a Barney the Dinosaur fantasy world. In the real world the way you win a war of occupation is by breaking the will of the people by whatever means possible. How do you do that? You start killing people.

That is war, that is the whole reason we have a military. Do you think war doesn't involve killing people?

Well, guess what, history has shown us that in war there should be no rules if you want to win.

Americans are soft psychologically (and physically of course, what a bunch of fat bodies) and America will never win another war because of that psychological weakness.

Do you think the terrorists that wantonly kill civilians around the world give a shit what you think? Do you think red China will give a shit what you think as they are spraying America down with ethnically targeted bio-weapons?

The number one reason to flee the U.S. is not because our half assed attempt to fight our enemies has produced even more enemies, it is because when a real enemy does appear on the horizon Americans will be too fat and too psychologically soft to do anything about it other than say, "oh well" and die in the streets.

What a disgustingly weak nation.

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» So, victory by genocide? Posted by: brunowe
RE: What DID Hermann Heidrich do ...
Posted by: BenCaxton12 on May 24, 2007 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
SS-Obersturmbannführer Hermann Heidrich held very similar view on getting cooperation and tactical information from the French, the Poles, the Russians, and other conquered peoples whose Resistance movements didn't know when to quit.

For his troubles, someone blew him up with an improvised explosive device.

But, the armies of the Reich persissted with his (and your) so-easily comprehensible programme for promoting Victory -- and let History judge how well THAT all worked out.

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RE: Hey Army, aren't you part of the problem?
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive on May 24, 2007 8:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ah yes... White Middleclass Male (amazingly bigoted!). Aren't you the same really brave soldier who related how you launched an answering mortar strike at a suspected launch point and smirkingly pointed out that it fell short and obliterated an Iraqi family. Ha,ha,ha.

I don't think we're talking to a hero here, people. This creep is exactly what this article is talking about. A psychotic KILLER! The marines would be proud to have him. KILL, KILL, KILL!
That's what it's all about...huh, hero!

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"America used to win wars" - but the wars then had a POINT
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on May 24, 2007 9:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stop the pointless war & go home. Problem solved!

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Typical overcompensating fake-tough "soldier"
Posted by: amatullah on May 24, 2007 11:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Feeling inadequate, this punk tries to make up for it by bravely attacking the unarmed and lesser-armed. Typical of the strutting micro peni who so often join the military, he can only be tough when he has 100 times the weaponry and backup forces of those he attacks. Place him on equal footing with those he fights, and he'd curl up in a fetal position and pee in his manly camo pants.

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What would Sun Tzu do?
Posted by: White middleclass male on May 24, 2007 2:41 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America used to win wars. Now we give filthy children soccer balls.

Every unit knows who the shady people are in their area. We lost those soldiers that were abducted because we did not round the resisters, shoot one in the face, and point to the muslim next to him and say “Produce our men. You have one hour”.

If America wants to deploy the military, let us fight. We are not humanitarians. I did not come to Iraq to try to fix the open sewage dike that has been in Hussianiaya (it has multiple spellings) since Nebacanezer or here how “Baby has no milk” because a sunni can not leave his neighborhood to go to the market without a shitte killing him.

If we are not needed to fight send us home.


1LT L US Army

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» RE: What would Sun Tzu do? Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: Hey Army, still posting this bullshit? Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: What would the U.N. do? Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: What would Sun Tzu do? Posted by: LadyBoru
A recent Pew poll
Posted by: ISlamIslam on May 24, 2007 3:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A recent Pew poll found that as many as one-third of all American Muslims are supportive of al Qaeda and believe that suicide bombings can be justified. When are American Muslims going to look themselves in the mirror and quit asking why we infidels perceive them the way we do?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: ACLU supports Muslims right to terrorism??? Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» Sickening liar Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Sickening liar Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Sickening liar Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Just to be clear ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Just to be clear ... Posted by: zorro
» RE: STOP SHOUTING Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: Just to be clear ... Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Just to be clear ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» So show the link to the poll Posted by: fanny666
» RE: A recent Pew poll Posted by: YogiBear
» The Pew poll was poorly done Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: The Pew poll was poorly done Posted by: soulrebeljc
Watch out for the goons when they do come home.
Posted by: colinmeister on May 24, 2007 3:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So we are seeing a bunch of uncaring psychotics prancing around Iraq in US uniforms, killing and torturing non-combatants without shame.

When these goons come home, watch out for the crime wave which they bring with them!

"Support our Troops"? Yeah - right...

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» Putting words in my mouth. Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» I wonder how many of these people Posted by: xconservative
» Very intriguing question... Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» zorro Posted by: gdonald
how bad governments bind people into intolerable situations
Posted by: Suzon on May 24, 2007 3:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When George W Bush was "elected" president in 2000, war became "inevitable" for unacceptable reasons. Oil and Haliburton come easily to mind, but binding the population into supporting what they would not otherwise approve of may be even more significant.

Bad government (cruel and repressive) needs more support than good government does. Asking for a favor makes a person more supportive of you. The more you ask, the greater his or her investment in you. What more can a bad government ask than that you do bad things for it or see and not report bad things? That is probably more of a sacrifice than giving up life or limbs.

Under the guise of a war against terror, our troops were asked to become terrorists. The denial of this reality takes a lot of psychic energy. These men and women have been duped into accepting cruelty and torture as ok, but none of them have been isolated from other ideas, such as being your brother's keeper.

Forget Clinton's sexual adventures. Impeachment is not the model to follow. The Nuremberg trials are.

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Ideological manipulation and ignorance equals clueless remarks
Posted by: Universal on May 24, 2007 3:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Both whitemale and islamislam writers denigrate the Arab population with superficial and might makes right rot.
IslamIsalm, does not even realize how the corporate media and its class whores manipulate questions, relations. Therefore he easily falls for this superficial class rot, class ideology, class nationalism behind it.

If you conflate several issues within a general question, you get ambiguous answers. I am surprised that the percentage of Arabs who were willing to use terrorism was so low. You see, war itself is terrorism, and what does not get sorted out, is the fact that resistance to the occupation, whether Israeli Nazis of Palestinians, or Amerikan of Iraqis, will use guerilla style tactics, terrorism, to defeat these know nothings who come over and make false judgements.

In fact you do not go to war to go after criminal terrorists, you treat the issue as a law enforcement issue. Once you bomb innocent people as the Amerikan fascist forces are doing routinely in both Afghanistan and Iraq, and hundreds, and tens of thousands die from this fascist criminal approach, then everyone will start to resist this occupation, of course labled Al Qaida, or a terrorist.

Can you imagine some white supremacists from Germany bombing Amerikan facilities, and we go bomb France, its population, a country that not nothing to do with the event. Then the stupid rednecks justify it by saying, well they are all Arabs, (transaltion they are all Europeans), ragheads, (white crackers) so they are the same and guilty. We are creating more terrorists, more resistance to our fascism, racism, and stupidty, that both whitemaile and IslamIslam fell for. If I was an Arab, I would justify counterterrorism to the Nazi, fascist state terrorism of Amerikan Empire and Israeli Nazis.

Racism, class ideology, class manipulation of history, facts, imposed on a knownothing culture of rednecks produces these clueless remarks.

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Old veteran of anothe war
Posted by: RDVSR on May 24, 2007 4:00 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do the libs want to dress troops in pink, and make the wear lots of perfume to fingt a war? They should get their heads out of never never land, and realize we are at WAR! War is hell.

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» Okay, doctor Posted by: Habaro
» "we are at WAR!" - SO STOP THE WAR & go home! Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
The loss of America’s soul: another consequence of Republican rule.
Posted by: HughScott on May 24, 2007 4:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According the article, one-third of GIs in Iraq approved of torture. Another Pentagon study recently found the same percentage of soldiers needed psychological counseling after coming home.

I would like to believe there was a direction connection – that returning veterans had regained their moral compass and were suffering from guilty consciences caused by approving torture. However, such thinking, I’m afraid, would be wishful.

Look at the shameful example set by the nine Republicans running for the presidency in 2008. Asked during their last debate about torture being acceptable in wartime, only two candidates -– John McCain and Ron Paul -- said definitely not.

What kind of message did the other candidates send to our troops in the Middle East? The worst kind, obviously.

During my active duty Air Force service in 1965, I went through the infamous SAC Combat Crew Survival Course at Stead AFB, Nevada. Part of my training included simulated torture in a make-believe USSR POW camp made starkly real by "Soviet" guards, all ex-German soldiers who had been prisoners themselves in Russia during WWII. The lesson I learned the easy way, unlike John McCain, was that torture didn’t work.

If the DOD made Senator McCain’s anti-torture stance clear to GIs in Iraq, I believe they would realize their sadistic feelings were caused by anger at being hated occupiers, not a desire for intelligence information.

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» You nailed it, gdonald! Posted by: HughScott
We can only imagine...
Posted by: sheena2u on May 24, 2007 5:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
how overextended, worn down, and abandoned our soldiers must be feeling.

We send them into harms way, with no break for years. We keep them away from their families. We don't give them proper armour or vehicles. We just stick them out in the middle of a conflict that has been mismanaged for much too long. Death is around them daily. They have to watch as the Blackwater mercenaries have better supplies, and get better pay for the same work.

They are in the worst imaginable circumstances. Bring them home! What kind of people do we have in Congress that they would capitulate to (Democrats) or support (Republicans) a president who is as mad as a hatter. Congress was our last hope. Who is listening to us anymore?Bring them home!

Use diplomacy in Iraq, not military action. Bring them home, now! Congress must stop coddling the Mad King George and stand up for the people who elected them. And, then impeach Cheney and Bush! And, then let's get back to the business of healing, and running our country! Otherwise we have 600 or so more days of misery, and God only knows what kind of president we will get after we let this one get away with murder for so long.

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Wow, someone's mining a rich vein of stupid
Posted by: HeroesAll on May 24, 2007 5:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Frankly, I'm astonished at some of the comments. Some folks, probably 28%ers, can't tell the difference between wearing pink and perfume, on the one hand, and not beating up innocent civilians on the other. Another wants all-out genocide, apparently, simply because the Iraqis dare to fight back against an illegal occupation. None of these commenters seem to grasp one of the main points of this article, which is the damage this war is doing to those fighting it.

And that damage will, sooner or later, come back to bite the US in a number of ways. I'm appalled at what the government has been doing to the soldiers, with the complete support of ignorant yokels. No body armor? No worries. Longer and longer tours? No worries. Implementing the frankly stupid policies that seem designed to enrage the locals? No worries. Treated like shit if they're wounded? No worries. Cries for help ignored? No worries. PTSD treatment non-existent? No worries.

But we're patriotic. We support the troops. We want to keep them over there, killing more innocent civilians, getting wounded or killed or going slowly crazy. It's better than keeping them here, for some reason. I don't profess to understand what passes for logic amongst these folks.

And for all those saying "You can't be nice, this is war": what war, exactly? Why are we at war? WMDs? Nope, there were none. Saddam Hussein? Nope, he's dead. Democracy for Iraqis? The absurdity of that is increasingly obvious even to those who support this stupid war.

Face it: the US can't win at this stage. There's no path from here that leads to a win. The best option now is to retire semi-gracefully, and perhaps to make some amends. The alternative is that the war continues, more people die, and the US becomes more and more hated throughout the world, followed eventually by the inevitable withdrawal in complete ignominious failure.

So what do you do: choose to leave now, with some shreds of your army and your reputation intact? Or choose more deaths, more misery, and eventual failure, simply because you don't like to lose?

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1 in 4 Americans believe attacks on civilians justified
Posted by: nebgirl on May 24, 2007 5:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
a july 2006 poll by the Univ. of Maryland found that 1 in 4 of Americans polled believed that bombing and attacks on civilians are often or sometimes justified. Compare that to the number of Muslim Americans who were found to support the same thing. Now look at what the religion of Islam itself says about that sort of behavior (during a war, the killing of innocent civilians is prohibited). It could be argued that Muslim Americans have been corrupted by the American value placed on life.

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» amatullah Posted by: gdonald
» RE: amatullah Posted by: amatullah
» RE: amatullah Posted by: gdonald
» RE: amatullah Posted by: amatullah
This is basic counter-insurgency tactics and not a shocking revelation
Posted by: Illiteratilumen on May 24, 2007 5:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I could go on and on about this one but I'll keep it to a few main points.

1. It takes a village to support an insurgency. When I say everyone is in on it I mean EVERYONE. Do you think it is easy to plant an IED and set up, then execute, an ambush in a densely populated urban area if even ONE person decides to tell the occupiers what is going on?

2. Taking into account point 1., imagine you are a soldier in Iraq. Lets say the attack goes off without a hitch and two of your buddies are dead, another one has his leg blown off and his testicles mutilated and now you'll never get to have Johnny as the best man in your wedding like you guys always talked about. You're gonna be upset. You know some of these guys have information. Now you are going to go get it. Time to get some neighborhood Iraqis into the basement with a pair of pliers and start plucking fingernails.

3. You may torture 5 people and then one gives up information that leads to a chache of explosives. For you (remember you are a soldier) its good enough for you. Mission accomplished.

You can't fault the soldiers for doing what they are ordered to do. You can't fault the commanders for their textbook CI tactics. You CAN fault the U.S. government and, by extention, the American people, for sending them to fight a CI war against a VERY foreign group of people with a LOT of fighting-age kids ready to kill and die. CI wars are ugly, ugly operations and anyone with half a brain should understand that before engaging one's military in them. The Brits are the only modern military to have any success at them and the way the won was with pure brutality. Think the Nazi's invented concentration camps? The Brits had that concept down pat decades before in S. Africa against the Boers.

Nobody should kid themselves that CI wars can be fought clean.

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» RE: You missed my point it seems. Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» Right on Posted by: gdonald
» Not if you WIN ... Posted by: BenCaxton12
» RE: Knee-jerk reaction Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Knee-jerk reaction Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
the influence of Christian right-wing thinking
Posted by: zooeyhall on May 24, 2007 6:14 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am curious as to how much influence or prevalence of Christian right-wing and/or triumphalist attitudes have on our soldiers in Iraq.

I am from rural Nebraska, and many of the young people out here are going out into the world with these types of attitudes. I fear many of the young soldiers truly believe they are on some sort of religious crusade. "Convert 'em to Jesus or kill 'em".

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» Your fear is unfounded Posted by: gdonald
» Kill, kill, kill Posted by: ScottP
there is no clean war.
Posted by: richholland on May 24, 2007 6:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. the dutch had fought in Aceh Indonesia for around 70 years (15.000 dutch soldiers died.)

2. around 1900 the new strategie became if there was shooting from a village the total village was burnt down; including the mosque, killing all women and children. The men hide in the jungle and came back the next day.
3. first village 300 "innoncent" dead
second village 190 innoncent dead.
Afterthat 50 years of peace.
Remember Mr. Churchill had killed Kurds by gas, before the Germans killed Jews.

There is no clean WAR the winners are the RICH and the generals, the loosers civilians.
The Dutch had 5 years of occupation by the Germans and our resistancefighters were called "terrorists" just like you do with the Iraqies.
Probably it is true that Americans tried to kill alSadr.
But please stop with this hypocrite artikels; you are there for the OIL,
give the honor to the people who defend their culture, their religion, their community.
The people of IRAq didnot invite you, so now AMI go home.

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» RE: there is no clean war. Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: there is no clean war. Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: there is no clean war. Posted by: albrechtkrausse
WE ARE ALL THE STATUS QUO.
Posted by: White middleclass male on May 24, 2007 6:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The soldiers were sent to a combat zone. Then they are told to support a population that is so alien from them they might as well be on a different planet. Some have had friends die. The same people that are trying to blow them up one day are calling the next day to report the opposite sect of muslim is assaulting their neighborhood and ask us for our help.

Please find me a war where a child would have the audacity to go up to his occupiers and demand that they give him something. Or find me one where a filthy toothless man that smells like his live stock approaches me as if we are equals.

Does anyone believe that any soldier cares about an Iraqi?

Anyone here vote Democrat? Anyone own a car? Anyone buy anything with plastic or that was transported on a truck? Go look at the WASPs you blame and then look in the mirror. What is the computer you are on right now made out of? Love and understanding? WE ARE ALL THE STATUS QUO.

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Lower recruiting standards as a factor?
Posted by: brunowe on May 24, 2007 7:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The DoD has had to lower its standards in order to keep its personnel levels up. For example, the Army has had to let in more soldiers who scored in the second lowest category on its aptitude test. I have to wonder if less competent soldiers are more likely to be subject to combat fatigue and more likely to respond to situations in violation of the laws of war.

The military has also increased its waivers for felonies and serious misdemeanors, thus letting in people who can't function in peacetime society and putting them in a battlefield. Here's an article from a 10/1/2006 issue of the San Francisco article on that subject.

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» RE: A factor, yes. A major cause, no. Posted by: Illiteratilumen
this is what happens
Posted by: Michael Boldin on May 24, 2007 7:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
in war. Think about it. Over the last few decades, America has basically turned into an aggressor. Don't you think that they teach the soldiers this too? When killing is done for the sake of killing, you're going to find a large number of those doing it who are willing to break all kinds of moral and legal codes in other ways as well.

I see it as the nature of warfare. Sick, disgusting, reality.

It's time we move away from this type of aggression - we have more national OF-fense than the rest of the world combined. To keep our country safe, and keep our military sane, we need to focus instead on national DE-fense!

No more aggression. period.

Some further thoughts:

"Leaders Don't Kill People..." - click here

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Either play to win or don't leave the house
Posted by: ateo on May 24, 2007 7:31 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
War is not a nice clean little hollywood movie where only the bad guys die and most of the good guys don't. War is something you won't understand unless you've been in it. It's not a morality tale, there is no happy ending.

In war a nation and its military must either fight to win or they should stay home and not get involved in the first place. What we are seeing in Iraq, just as we saw in Vietnam is a failure to play to win. Any student of military history, the history of conquerers will be able to tell you that the way to win a war of occupation on foreign soil is to break the will of the people.

How do you break the will of the people? You destroy everything dear to them, friends, family, homes, possessions. You simply raze cities to the ground until the thought of fighting the Americans is simply not worth entertaining due to the consequences.

Right now there is no negative consequence to the Iraqi who decides to snipe an American soldier or set up an IED on a road. The only thing they risk if their life and they are more than psychologically prepared to lose that. Death is no punishment to he that is prepared to die. That is the reason I do not support capital punishment - death is simply the cessation of life and release from any possible punishment.

America as a nation is psychologically weak and unprepared to fight and win a war. It makes me sick to see us waste the lives of our young American troops in Iraq by forcing them to fight with the gloves on. War should not be fought unless a nation is psychologically prepared to do all that is necessary to win.

When we bombed Dresden into dust and wiped out half a million Germans - that was an America playing to win.

When we dropped two atomic bombs on Japan - that was an America playing to win.

When we fire bombed Tokyo and killed more civilians than both atomic bombs combined - that was America playing to win.

Everything since then has been nothing more than policing actions, political games and maneuvering. I strongly oppose these phony wars where we throw away American lives and American money in wars of aggression to secure natural resources.

America should not, under any circumstance, be fighting aggressive wars. But, the precedent is set and where we go from here is a question that will be answered shortly. I fear for the future of the U.S. as the line between what is and is not justified is totally erased.

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» RE: You nailed it. Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: bomb, bomb, bombs away Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: ghoulman is intellectually dishonest Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: You are drawing inferences Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» "the precedent is set" Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Good point. Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» ...don't leave the house Posted by: YogiBear
» I forgot about the Guard Posted by: HeroesAll
Marines are murdering punks...
Posted by: Ghoulman on May 24, 2007 7:36 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... this has been the reputation of the US Marines since The Vietnam Conflict. Another time well known for US Marines raping and murdering civilians for fun and profit.

It is a fact that such crime is rampant in the Marines and has been for some time to various degrees since WWII. The conduct of US Marines in Iraq is no shock to the other soldiery in the world as they have seen first hand how US troops treat human beings. Hell, this treatment gets on FOX news and it's not even considered embarrassing anymore when US soldiers shout obscenities at civilians or beat them. It's accepted in the racist US media, it's considered OK. That's the culture in the USA, and it's super-charged in the Marines.

On CNN a few years ago, during the assault on Fallujah, a Marine shot and killed a man and boy in cold blood. No one made a stink about it. In Fallujah, US Marines went door to door and killed everyone they saw. Gas was used as well as incendiary weapons to burn people from their homes. Completely illegal and inhuman. Do you think raping the family daughter during a home invasion is a big deal to a Marine? HAPPENS EVERY NIGHT. It is happening right now. This is what Marines do for fun (they have been quoted as saying such more than once).

What? You're shocked? American soldiers are racist killers, this is their training and they have no training at all regarding lawful combat. For God's sake, the US army rejected the bloody Geneva Conventions.

It's clear the American soldier in Iraq is a criminal. Period.

Note; the English soldiers in Iraq don't have this reputation. Compare the two. What's the difference? Well, the murdering, raping, and so on. With the English troops, it happens but is dealt with in a proper legal fashion most of the time. But that's not what the Americans do. They encourage rape and murder as policy.

Recently the story came out of a US Marine who admitted kidnapping an Iraq teenager and selling her for sex. She was raped to death after hours of US soldiers screwing beaten body.

The combination of a badly trained racist soldiery conditioned to hate anyone not American, let alone brown skinned and Muslim, and a policy from the White House bereft of any law (the gloves are off) ... just disgusting... just goes to show the USA has surpassed the cruelty of even SS officers during the Slavic slaughter of early WWII. You know, where they went door to door killing and raping so much they ran out of bullets. After that, the Nazis were looking for more efficient ways to murder people. See how things get started?

Traditionally, when the honour of a regiment has been tarnished beyond repair, the regiment is retired. Sometimes in disgrace. It is time to seriously look at the history of the US Marine since WWII and wonder at their future.

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THIS IS NOT A WHITE TIE AFFAIR
Posted by: VZEQICVA on May 24, 2007 7:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not possible to be in a combat situtation without adjusting to it. It's naive to expect that anyone would be the same months or years later than they were before they left. That's why they won't talk about it. Recruiting standards are a problem but what we see happening to otherwise decent people is the price paid for sending our people to war. They are required to do things that are contrary to what they've been taught all their lives. Ain't easy. Thanks, ANNA

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» RE: Naive my ass Posted by: Ghoulman
US and Israel are the world's biggest terrorist regimes!
Posted by: Truth_seeker on May 24, 2007 8:25 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's pathetic how they always claim to be justified in their killings. The fact that they say 9/11 changed the world is a joke! It doesn't impact the world when they slaughter tens of thousands of innocents? If they really wanted to end terrorism, they would stop participating in it.

The US terrorist regime attacked 2 countries after nearly 3,000 people were killed by 19 men. Based on this logic, the Iraqis are justified in attacking the US. After all, they lost hundreds of thousands after having nothing to do with 9/11/01.

Israel attacked a country over a few soldiers. They killed over 1,000 civilians, displaced several hundred thousand innocent civilians, destroyed much of the infrastructure and left much of southern Lebanon uninhabitable due to unexploded cluster bombs. Cluster bombs constitute war crimes.

Palestinians die at a rate of 4 times that of Israelis. For children, it is nearly 8 times. Israelis are holding nearly 11,000 Palestinians prisoners. Palestinians are holding 1 Israeli. The 1 Israeli, a soldier, makes international news, but you hear nothing about the Palestinians, who are mostly civilians. Israelis have destroyed over 4,000 Palestinian homes. How many Israeli homes have Palestinians destroyed?

The Palestinian GDP per capita is $1,500. In Israel, it is $26,200. The inequalities are shocking, yet Israeli never gets called what they are, a terrorist regime!

What do think would happen if Americans were stripped of their lands, homes and jobs, and subjected to poverty, while another country was created. There would be anarchy! The Gaza Strip would look like a picnic compared to what would happen.

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Torture Works Both Ways
Posted by: rkewen on May 24, 2007 8:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The US soldiers who think torture is an acceptable tactic will hopefully remember that if they have the misfortune of being captured at some time in the future. In the BushWorld of constant war for oil the liklihood of US soldiers winding up in enemy hands increases almost daily.

So if captured just remember "Torture is OK," though it might be unpleasant. Unfortunately the enemy won't be able to tell if a particular soldier is one who thinks torture is cool.

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» These people Posted by: Joshua Holland
Culture of war = brutality
Posted by: fanny666 on May 24, 2007 9:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some of the above comments reflect exactly why it's so vital to do everything possible to stay out of war. The fact is that it's NOT the job of the US Marines to build things. It's their job to destroy things. It's not their job to pass out candy. It's their job to wipe out villages with extreme prejudice.

This is why we should not send them in the first place. War is the failure of mankind. We can't expect a clean, nice, politically correct war. They never look that way, and they never will.

Even the Army's elite 82nd Airborne had a culture of abuse and brutality. That's war, and that's why the lack of debate and consideration before this one shows that we still see it as a video game.

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» RE: Culture of war = brutality Posted by: VZEQICVA
History: The Logical Consequences of Fighting an Unwinnable War
Posted by: sofla100 on May 24, 2007 9:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First off, I recognize the need for a military in today's world, as a legitimate "self-defense force." But, Iraq is for from it, as with Iraq, it is a country in the midst of a civil war between competing religious groups. America, by needing to support Maliki, effectively has taken sides. This type of war, unfortunately, means you are fighting a large segment of the populace. Historically, when this has occurred, armies and invaders usually become increasingly brutal over time. Now, standard war fighting techniques won't work for an Army bottled up in urban combat. They don't know who the enemy is. Eventually, everyone becomes suspect, everyone is a potential enemy. We saw this in Vietnam, but other countries have seen it as well. You can look at the Japanese invaders of China during WWII and Hitler's Armies as they occupied parts of Europe and Russia. All became increasingly brutal. Now, it really does not matter if one's Army supposedly comes from a more democratic or "freer" society to began with. All become increasingly brutal in trying to act as occupiers not wanted by the local populace and fighting in a war as it becomes increasingly unwinnable. For America during WWII, this was not the case. The war was perceived widely as being in self-defense, after the attack on Pearl Harbor. And, occupations of post-war Europe and Japan had strong local populace support. These circumstances do not exist at all in Iraq. It's a civil war America has interjected itself into, and that we cannot win. Time to pull the boys out, all of them, and let the Iraqi's decide it between themselves.

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Maybe it's because one-third of the troops are as Nazi as the country that sent them?
Posted by: xbj on May 24, 2007 10:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comment here.

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Dick Cheney Dems Plan to Hide Votes On Iraq War TODAY
Posted by: freethink7 on May 24, 2007 11:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
More Incriminating Evidence That We Are No Longer A Democracy:

Dick Cheney Dems Plan to Hide Votes On Iraq War TODAY

Most of the “dems” in D.C. are really just neocons maquerading as democrats.

Go to this website:
Workingassetsblog.com

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Bad apples in the barrel.
Posted by: HughScott on May 24, 2007 11:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Too many AlterNet users are behaving like assholes.

Rather than offer meaningful comments on issues -- pro or con -- all you do is attack other responders like a bunch of whacked-out psychos. What’s wrong with you people?

Either clean up your act or take the divisive remarks to blogs with the same lack of decorum. Otherwise, if the reckless rhetoric continues, AlterNet will become a useless Tower of Babel.

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» We're working on it ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Thank God for that, Josh. Posted by: HughScott
» RE: Thank God for that, Josh. Posted by: peacefullaim
» insulting people Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: insulting people Posted by: Joshua Holland
» We can do better, Karma. Posted by: HughScott
» Acres of farmland in Paraguay... Posted by: eddie torres
» I'm sorry for your loss but... Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: be honest with yourself Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» Away from science, apparently. Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Find out for yourself or not Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Agreed. Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Oh come on! Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Oh come on! Posted by: xbj
» RE: Oh come on! Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Oh come on! Posted by: xbj
» RE: Oh come on! Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Oh come on! Posted by: xbj
» Hugh lecturing about "decorum" is like... Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» You know, Hugh... Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» I wish, xbj. Posted by: HughScott
» RE: Keep wishing. Posted by: xbj
Wouldn't it be nice?
Posted by: paschn on May 24, 2007 11:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If all those fine, freedom fighting sunzabitches who support torture and violence against civilians were all caught by the "insurgents" and had a chance to discuss their love of torture and violence against women and children in depth?
Come on you drones, let's get those "support our troops" bumper magnets replaced! They're hard to read through all that dried blood!
A nation of sheep, led by a cartel of whores, controlled by Israel / big business. Welcome,... to the REAL Evil Empire!

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Bad apples in the barrel.
Posted by: HughScott on May 24, 2007 11:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Too many AlterNet users are behaving like assholes.

Rather than offer meaningful comments on issues -- pro or con -- all you do is attack other responders like a bunch of whacked out psychos. What’s wrong with you people?

Either clean up your act or take the divisive remarks to blogs with the same lack of decorum. Otherwise, if the reckless rhetoric continues, AlterNet will become a useless Tower of Babel.

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» Yeah, like Jerry Springer fans. Posted by: HughScott
Our troops can't get laid or get drunk in Iraq
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on May 24, 2007 11:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
unlike previous wars (Vietnam, Korea, & most theatres of combat in WW2), so no wonder some of them are taking their frustrations out on civilians there.

Another good and perfectly valid argument for avoiding wars in Muslim countries!

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RE: Our troops can't get laid or get drunk in Iraq
Posted by: fly in the ointment on May 24, 2007 11:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Really? Is that an excuse for such bad behavior?

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» Not an excuse Posted by: xconservative
» Not an excuse, but no wonder some of them snap Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
Let's look at those stats...
Posted by: Tankerdeath on May 24, 2007 1:41 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
9 percent and 12 percent, respectively, reported damaging or destroying Iraqi property "when it was not necessary."
4 percent and 7 percent, respectively, reported hitting or kicking a noncombatant "when it was not necessary.--Does the question address the circumstances of the incident? If a car charges your checkpoint, you light the son of a bitch up. If that car's driver was inattentive and missed the signs because he was late for work, you just killed an innocent man, but your action was well within the rules of engagement. That same action you took could have saved your buddies' lives if the car had been full of explosives.
Still, in the end, the killing was "not necessary."
I bet you at LEAST 9-12 percent of combat kills end up being innocent people caught up in a dirty war, killed by soldiers who love life and liberty and will have nightmares for the rest of thier lives.
No soldier wants to kill innocent people--but it happens.
You left-wingers need to cut Joe some slack--and you right-wingers need to think very hard before you send us to war, becuse innocent civilians will get caught up in it and die.
It's as natural as wind and rain.

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Not surprising!
Posted by: persian on May 24, 2007 2:00 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The soldiers are are just like the rest of Americans. The corporate media never shows any muslim or arab in positive light. Hollywood movies are always showing middle easterners as backwarded and violence prone individuals or terrorists. Americans are sold the nonsense idea that their hate toward us is religously inspired and it is because of who we are not what we did or doing, but we know better, don't we?

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Only one-third of Amerikan troops reflect the morality of their Nazi Leaders?
Posted by: xbj on May 24, 2007 3:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'd say that speaks rather highly of America.

Surprisingly highly, as a matter of fact. I would have thought the percentage would have been a lot higher, like 60% or so.

The fact that the Nazis in the White House, and in the Militant Christianist "Right", and in the Congress, in six years and even after a phony false flag attack against their own people on 9-11, couldn't achieve higher level of more soul-destroying brutalization and Nazification of American troops than a mere 30% speaks VERY highly for America and Americans and the all-pervasive myth, and yes, dream, of American Democracy and Freedom.

Herr Rumsfeld! Cheney! Oberfuhrer Rove!

Back to the drawing board. Der Fuhrer is NOT pleased.

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» poll results Posted by: YogiBear
Don't Blame the Soldiers
Posted by: sofla100 on May 24, 2007 5:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of the young men and women who join the military do so in order to obtain benefits to pay for college, healthcare for their families, or a somewhat decent salary. Indeed, with enlistment bonuses going up to $20,000 or more, we are talking a lot more money than going to work at the local Wal-Mart's. The fact that the American economy gives these kids so few choices however is another story. As for brutality, as I said earlier, a fight against an insurgency can only result in a dirty, dirty war. The enemy could be a little kid with a hand grenade in his pocket. Civilian deaths are unavoidable. Not only that, when you are losing, as America is, and much of the local populace is against you, the probability of brutality rapidly escalates. American forces were never near adequate strength wise nor provided with the needed supplies in the first place. As for brutality, anyone (who is normal) who even accidently and unavoidably kills innocent people is going to be remembering that for the rest of their lives. Look at the soldiers returning home and the psychiatric disorders. As for why we are there and what got us there in the first place, the blame can only go to one man and one place. America's president either used bad judgement, was fixated by preconceived opinions, or took heed of very bad advise to go in the first place. What he should do now is cut America's losses, you have to realize when enough is enough.

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It doesn't take
Posted by: willymack on May 24, 2007 8:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A PHD in psycology to figure out why so many military personnel favor, or are indifferent to mistreatment of civilians. Any combat veteran can tell you that being scared to death 24 hours a day does (not so) funny things to your mind, especially when you've no way of telling the difference between the good guys and the bad guys. Remember Vietnam?

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» RE: It doesn't take Posted by: xbj
Torture is not only immoral - it' stupid!
Posted by: moflard on May 25, 2007 1:43 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whilst I can see that some "progressives" seem somewhat divorced from reality when it comes to the particular case of warfare, a state they share with your Commander in Chief and his cohorts, I think many supporting these practises are missing the point.

Torture doesn't work. Let's forget the moral issues for the moment and just concentrate on the practical.

1) The information gained through torture is more often than not unreliable, what the torturer wants to hear as opposed to what they need to hear. As such any info so gained and acted upon is, at best, a waste of effort, and at worst misdirects from what turn out to be the real threats. In short, torture costs lives on the torturers side as it creates an illusion of intelligence where there is none, and blind spots that would otherwise be detected.

2) Torturing has an effect upon that native population and their attitudes to the occupying forces far greater than is usualy expected. One incident of torture can add 100 to the number of resistance fighters, it decreases the cooperation of civilians with the occupiers and hence makes intelligence gathering that much more difficult. This again costs lives for the occupiers.

So for those "regressives" out there, yes war is deeply unpleasant and some of the moral rules we run our society on do not apply in the same way during that state. However torture is not only immoral (a word it would seem some "regressive" posters here have trouble with) it's not even good strategy.

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Pray for the Mercs
Posted by: cashelboylo on May 25, 2007 2:34 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America must continue to support and pray for its mercenary troops in Iraq.
America must provide decently for these mercenary troops when they return home maimed physically and mentally and financially disadvantaged and their families destroyed for life.
America sent them there.
However, America should not forget that ninety to one hundred percent of US troops in Iraq are not there out of patriotism; certainly not for containment of terrorism.
They are there for money.
That does not mean that they are immoral as individuals. America is a mercenary society and arguably the better for it.
But all mercenary armies share the same immoral attitude toward their unfortunate incidental civilian victims: Kill 'em, torture 'em, do whatever it takes to accomplish the mission, get paid and get out.
The determined non-combatants Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Rice, Cheney and Bush have ignored the levels of stress endured by combat soldiers and Marines in Iraq, in mortal danger for hours on end, every day of the week for months at a time.
The problems of this administration's waging of profit-making wars using mercenary troops are now amplified by recruiting invalids, drug addicts, criminals and lunatics into the armed services and training them to be super-efficient killers, and, incidentally, torturers.
What does America do with these already sociopathic people when they eventually return home in very much worse shape than how they started out?
How do we help them to handle it?
How do we handle them?

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» RE: Pray for the Mercs Posted by: peter1469
I don't buy the torture numbers
Posted by: PrissyPatriot on May 25, 2007 5:27 AM   
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I work with soldiers and I don't buy the results of the "study" you cite. The American soldier and military doctrine has been taught torture is an ineffective means of eliciting actionable intelligence for the last 50 years!
I would bet money the Pentagon/Loyal Bushies put that out as propaganda against our own soldiers. They are tired of the public complaining about the war.
Turn the public against military, like they did in Vietnam and people are less likely to give a hoot if soldiers die and their war can continue for 16 years like Vietnam did. "They were torturers anyway," mentality...Days after this report , 3 American soldiers were captured. I'm sure the Iraqis had even less love for the troops after that report hit the news...
Please read this: Commander Guy Turns on Our Troops

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Well Known
Posted by: NoPCZone on May 25, 2007 10:34 AM   
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It not a new phenomenon that living and fighting in such an environment (insurgent/guerilla) desensitizes many if not all. Add that to the racist mentality some have used to rev up the troops and it was easily predicted that things would come to this.

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Sorry
Posted by: opeluboy on May 25, 2007 3:50 PM   
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But I have no time to read this article right now. I'm going back into hiding under my bed since reading the Pew poll about Muslim Americans.

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Nothing has changed
Posted by: Gisele on May 25, 2007 7:10 PM   
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As long as your government keeps you fighting among yourselves as has been happening in all comments related to this article - you won't gain the consensus and strength it takes to fight them. Stop the infighting - and FOCUS! Come together long enough to accomplish what needs doing, then fight later if you must. Right now the whole world needs you to pay attention to the truth - not fall to the oldest game in the books: Divide and Conquer.

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It Won't Be Long Now
Posted by: Gisele on May 25, 2007 7:16 PM   
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The National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive, signed on May 9, 2007 declares that in the event of a “catastrophic event”, George W. Bush can become what is best described as "a dictator": Read the full text of his latest here..

From the page: This directive, completely unnoticed by the media, and given no scrutiny by Congress, literally gives the White House unprecedented dictatorial power over the government and the country, bypassing the US Congress and obliterating the separation of powers.

Be sure to click the link for the critical analysis as well, other perceptions are valuable.

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agree, but
Posted by: peter1469 on May 29, 2007 1:52 AM   
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I agree with the article except the claim that it is US policy that is causing the alienation of soldiers/marines to the Iraqi public. The root cause is the insurgency that fights from among the civilian population. When you cannot tell the bad guys from the civilians you tend to err on the side of your safety.

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Another Atrocity Waiting To Happen
Posted by: Forgiven on May 29, 2007 8:37 AM   
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What causes men and women to abuse and torture other humans? For many there is some degree of sadism and tendencies towards deviant behavior, but for many others it is the stress and frustration of constant fear and uncertainty.

We are about to increase the amount of time our service personnel spend in Iraq and we are decreasing the amount of time for leaves. By keeping our service people in these heighten states of fear for these extended periods, we are laying the groundwork for more atrocities on civilians in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Any military or civilian doctor will tell you that wars like these are extremely stressful on the soldiers, because there are no fronts to guard or hide behind. The soldier is constantly surrounded by both friend and foe and no real way to distinguish the two. As we put more and more soldiers in close proximity to civilians as the surge plan does, this increases the level of stress for the soldier. Our military personnel can only take so much stress before time has shown; they will become less inclined to abide by the rules and conduct of engagement with civilians.

Another component to all of this is the lowering of standards for the military. To try to keep pace with the growing need for bodies in uniforms, the military has been lowering the standards for recruits that are being accepted. As we lower our standards for military personnel, we increase the likelihood for abuse. The new recruits are more likely to have criminal histories or behavioral issues that could manifest themselves under stress related duty. Remember, we are putting these young men and women under some extreme conditions and expecting them to behave as robots, it isn’t going to happen. These conditions could bring out the savageness in anyone of us. Who is to say what any of us would do under those conditions?

Those of us at home must not continue to stand pat while our military personnel are placed in these situations. Just because we may not have a direct stake or loved one involved; it does not allow us the right to be mute. In a democracy it is the people that decide inevitably when and where our soldiers fight. The President can declare a war, but without public support it cannot continue. The lives of our military and of innocent civilians are at stake. There are those who may say that innocents may die if we leave and that well may be true, but we won’t be the ones killing them.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

The Disputed Truth

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