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When Will Joe Biden Become Fair Game?

By Matt Taibbi, RollingStone.com. Posted September 7, 2006.


Senator Joe Biden is the ultimate creep Democrat -- happy to attack Rumsfeld when Iraq is polling badly, and arch defender of the credit industries that have put thousands of US troops abroad in bankruptcy.
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"He is an impediment in this effort."
-- Sen. Joe Biden, on Donald Rumsfeld's Iraq war legacy

An impediment. That's kind of a funny way to describe the architect of the Iraq war, isn't it?

Put a mythical six chimpanzees to work on a mythical six typewriters and one of them might eventually type out Hamlet, but I feel fairly confident that a billion years could pass before any healthy primate would make it even halfway through the sentence Donald Rumsfeld impeded the Iraq war effort. Yet there was Joe Biden, saying it on live television last week.

The Democrats, God bless them, came out with yet another calculated media attack last week, following up Hillary Clinton's August ambush of Don Rumsfeld with the introduction of a resolution calling for the Defense Secretary's resignation.

From almost the moment that Rumsfeld gave a speech early last week comparing Bush's Iraq war critics to pre-WWII Nazi "appeasers," the Democrats started whaling away at him, filling the front pages of big dailies across the country with "Top Dems Blast Rumsfeld" headlines.

Almost the whole roster of prominent Democrats was in on the effort, with everyone from John Edwards to Chuck Schumer to Nancy Pelosi to Ike Skelton to Jack Reed seemingly reading from the same gloatingly self-righteous "Rumsfeld is a real dick" script.

It was one of those groan-out-loud coordinated media-sandbag jobs, now standard procedure in American politics, where the various politicians separately make exactly the same pre-prepared "jokes" in their respective "extemporaneous" public remarks, delivering their message with all the wit and spontaneity of a Speak N' Spell:

Pelosi on Rumsfeld: "If Mr. Rumsfeld is so concerned with comparisons to World War II, he should explain why our troops have now been fighting in Iraq longer than it took our forces to defeat the Nazis in Europe."
Biden: "The most significant comparison with World War II is that we soon will have been in Iraq as long as World War II, with much less success."
Yuk, yuk. In any case, this anti-Rumsfeld broadside is a classic political canard, a perfect expression of everything the modern Democratic party stands for. Politically, it makes perfect sense, as Rumsfeld is much less popular even than Bush; this is a figure whose approval ratings were down in the thirties two years ago, back when Bush was still capable of winning a national election.

The attack will work, because so many voters out there will see in it a reflection of their own animosity towards the hoary Defense Secretary, not thinking about the real underlying meaning of the Democrats' campaign. Because what Rumsfeld actually represents to the Democrats is a means of attacking the Republicans on the Iraq issue without having to explain their own vote in support of the invasion.

Essentially the Democrats will call Rumsfeld a bunch of names for the sound bite, and then, in the fine print, state their real "objections" to Rumsfeld's record, which will amount to something like the fact that he invaded Iraq on a Thursday instead of a Tuesday, used too few troops to needlessly destroy Iraq's national infrastructure, failed to distribute free milk and cookies to the Mahdi army, etc.

A typical comment will be one like Chuck Schumer's of last week: "There are growing doubts about how competently he's conducted the war." (How do you competently invade the wrong country?) And so the Democrats once again will make an effort to sound antiwar out of one side of their mouths, and pro-war out the other side; they will then close their eyes and hope that they pick up 16 seats before anyone notices. If that ain't leadership, what is?

I can take this stuff coming from most of the Democrats, but it's awfully hard to listen to this crap from Joe Biden. Actually, listening to Joe Biden sound self-righteous about anything makes me want to puke my guts out. I don't know what it is about him.

Maybe it's that creepy poof of blow-dried gray pubic fuzz he has now covering up that dime-store plug job on his head. Maybe it's the fact that he's been ponderously wondering aloud about his chances for the White House for 18 straight years, his painfully obvious hard-on for power straining against his suit-slacks, ever since a plagiarism scandal and an aneurysm knocked him out of his first run. Maybe it's that his idea of outflanking the Republican Party is outspending them on the War on Drugs.

Or maybe it's just that Biden, more than almost anyone in American public life, will do or say anything that he thinks will secure him even the most temporary electoral advantage. Two years ago, back when the Iraq war was still a winner politically, Biden spent a lot of his time slamming other Democrats for not being On Board enough with the war effort, and he even went out of his way to bitch out Democrats for criticizing Ronald Reagan.
As he told the New Yorker, "Everybody knew 'Reagan is dangerous,' remember? He talked about freedom, so what do we do? We say it's a bad speech, dangerous speech," Biden said, adding that Democrats were "making the same mistakes again."

Biden at the time also complained that Republicans were getting away with taking credit for the idea of a pre-emptive war, when it was really a Democratic idea. "What is so transformational in the last four years is that these assholes who wouldn't give President Clinton the authority to use force" have now become, Biden said, moral interventionists. He added: "Give me a fucking break."

Of course all of that mine's-bigger-than-yours militarist rhetoric is staying in Biden's garage this election season, as he's chosen to attack the Republicans on Iraq now, not his fellow Democrats, which ought to tell you where the polls on that issue are. But Biden attacking Rumsfeld even on the issue of his conduct of the war is outrageous in itself, for other reasons.

Right around the time Biden and his fellow Democrats launched their Rumsfeld attack, the Defense Department released a study showing that an inordinately high number of military recruits were being disqualified from service in Iraq because of debt problems, often resulting from so-called "payday loans," i.e. very high-interest loans made between paychecks by predatory lenders who set up show outside military bases.

The study made the front page of USA Today and was briefly a media sensation, with many commentators noting the injustice of a system that allows credit companies to prey upon young men and women about to serve in the Iraq bloodbath. Making matters worse was the fact that congress voted specifically to deny debt protection to servicemen a year-and-a-half ago.

Back in early 2005, Senator Dick Durbin proposed an amendment to the infamous S. 256, the Bankruptcy Abuse Protection and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 -- better known as the Bankruptcy Bill, a law pushed by credit companies which made it more or less impossible to declare bankruptcy.

Durbin's amendment, called the GI Protection Amendment, would have exempted U.S. servicemen and women from the so-called "means test," a procedure which under the new law every bankruptcy aspirant must submit to before he is allowed to sue for bankruptcy. It also would have protected soldiers from losing their homes to creditors during their deployments, and would have offered some debt protections to the spouses of slain servicemen. It also would have offered some protections to soldiers in trouble because of payday loans.

Now, the logic of this amendment seemed unassailable. Soldiers sent to war often end up in financial trouble, and reservists sent to war for long deployments have it even worse, often seeing their small businesses fail or bills pile up while they trade in their normal salaries for meager army wages. It seems like a small concession to make to soldiers to offer some relief on these fronts, in exchange for asking them to risk their necks for some pointless military adventure dreamed up by a bunch of half-wit Ivy League trust fund babies who'll never go broke and whose kids will never serve.

So Durbin's amendment made sense, but of course it died, 62-38. Most of the Republicans voted against it, but they weren't alone. Some Democrats voted nay, too, including that great old friend of the credit industry, Joe Biden.

In the election cycle immediately preceding the historic Bankruptcy Bill, Joe Biden collected some $62,125 from the credit industry, putting him in 12th place among all American politicians. To date, for his career, he's taken over a quarter of a million dollars from credit card companies, many of which are headquartered in Delaware. So it was no surprise that Biden was one of the chief pimps for this notorious law.

But what was most disgusting was the blatant hypocrisy of the bill's shepherds. One of the features of the Durbin amendment was that it would have allowed servicemen to apply for bankruptcy in any state where he or she had been stationed -- allowing him or her to choose among the states with the most advantageous bankruptcy laws. This amendment, again, was rejected by Biden and Co. But when Sen. John Cornyn of Texas decided to offer an amendment banning a similar "judge-shopping" loophole in bankruptcy law that had traditionally been used by corporations like Enron (which filed for bankruptcy in New York, where it had 57 employees, rather than Houston, where it had 7,500, because the New York laws were more permissive), Cornyn was blocked? Why? A Cornyn spokesman told David Broder at the time that the Delaware Senators threatened to withdraw their support for the bill if his amendment was in it.

Moreover, when an amendment was offered to close "asset protection trusts" -- a kind of trust that shields millionaires' assets from recovery in bankruptcy proceedings -- that amendment, too, was rejected. Delaware is one of five states that offer such trusts. The only people who got screwed in the bill were people with real excuses for debt problems: the military, people with serious medical issues, people who had been the victim of identity theft, all of whom had amendments to protect them shot down by the likes of Biden.

So I have to laugh when I hear Biden talking about how Donald Rumsfeld is an "impediment to this effort." What effort? Screwing the military? Biden is a typical Democrat; he'll sell himself as pro-war and antiwar, depending on the circumstances, but in reality he's neither. He's just another whore crouched over the front seat of Capitol Hill. When will we stop taking clowns like this seriously? What will it take?

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Matt Taibbi is a writer for Rolling Stone.

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biden's a bitch!
Posted by: edith on Sep 7, 2006 12:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
good rhetoric punch against Joe Biden. If Hilary falters, he could be the "fallback" guy, so remember this well-researched article. Biden is smart but frightenly ambitious and will do or say anything to be President. In High School he would be known as a smart "wise-ass" who would run over his best friend to get into an Ivy League School. Indeed, that may be how Joe did get into an Ivy League school. Maybe we should just disqualify anyone who graduated or has a degree from any Ivy League school from the Presidency or from Congress or the Supreme Court.

There are smart people who go to state schools who are more in touch with regular people than Bushes, Clintons or Biden!

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Matt, you funny bastard!
Posted by: kelly.nickell on Sep 8, 2006 4:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe it's that creepy poof of blow-dried gray pubic fuzz he has now covering up that dime-store plug job on his head. Maybe it's the fact that he's been ponderously wondering aloud about his chances for the White House for 18 straight years, his painfully obvious hard-on for power straining against his suit-slacks, ever since a plagiarism scandal and an aneurysm knocked him out of his first run. Maybe it's that his idea of outflanking the Republican Party is outspending them on the War on Drugs.

My favorite passage and dead-on for a great deal of folks straining their drawers for a seat at the right hand of God, er I mean president, if not the shit-stained chair itself now occupied by the latest god, Arbusto the Almighty.

I still know a few democrats that said this shit was a bad idea back in 2001, a few days after everyone decided that if the "Q" in Iraq were indeed a Q, then we should proceed with fighting a war on two fronts, leave the back door open in Tora Bora, because UBL '"...doesn't concern me that much..." and economy based on things that will only last till they find the next IED, is a perfect economy.

Not to mention the boner Rummy had left un-serviced from his earlier days under the desk of Saddam.

Mr. Taibbi's beautifully cynical view is truly refreshing in a world full of conservative optimism.

I wonder how Rummy looks with those "Flowers of welcome" sticking out of his back side, and whether Biden still sniffs them.

Not good, and probably not.

As for the credit industry; I suppose the ass-hair club for men is doing a land office business these days for the folks that run the loan shacks now scattered round the neighborhoods where I shop (Joes Computer, Bait & Pawn), I even have a step daughter working in upper management at one.

She has a set of keys, no insurance, and makes minimum, not to mention she can't shop where she works. Perfect, beautiful world; not really Biden's fault but I wish he could come on down one day and see how well bankruptcy reform is working for the payday loan crowd, the ones to which Matt refers.

One trip to the emergency room and the slush fund for hair plugs is done.

Where'd you go Joe?

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Always good to hear from Taibbi
Posted by: cold2touch on Sep 8, 2006 5:14 AM   
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and let me add, you are not an impediment to free speech.

For years I've been saying that no one hits the higher score on the disgust-o-meter than Joe Biden and that includes the other stellar Joe, Lieberman, the lava lamp with cheese inside.

Remember when Supersize Me guy left all those fast foods to moulder inside glass jars for weeks on end to see what happens? Joe Biden happens, that's what, and it is a telling point that America has a love affair with such animated phlegm: they get elected, rich and famous.

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» I love this article Posted by: LDavistrueblue
Payday Loans
Posted by: JSquercia on Sep 8, 2006 7:13 AM   
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Of course as the Senator from Delaware Biden would be in pocket of the Credit Card Industry I would expect no LESS
I believe Delaware and North Dakota have no cap on interest rates and so are favored by the Credit Card Companies .

I found it interesting that when reading about Pay Day Loans in my local Paper they mentioned that our wonderful Congressman were proposing relief by limiting the interest rate to 36% . The lousey bastards given a choice to protect our troops or the Financial Services Industry they went with the Money .

I did have a thought that perhaps these troops are dumb like a fox . If being deeply in debt will prevent you from being sent to Iraq it might be a GOOD idea to get yourself into debt

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» dumb like a fox Posted by: Lincoln fan
The Cure for Corruption
Posted by: edhowes on Sep 8, 2006 10:26 AM   
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Politics is no different than medicine. As long as we treat and discuss the symptoms such as double minded Joe, and do not search for the cause, there is no cure. Only disease management at best. The cause of the corruption is two fold. First is the idea that citizens who are fully liable for their actions under law, can organize into a political state and create artificial, corporate persons of limited liability. Since power of government is derived from the citizen, the citizen must first have the power to delegate. The citizen has no power to limit her own liability or anyone elses and all corporations are frauds, null and void under law.

Second. We have been operating over 200 years under a defective law. The U.S. Confidence Institution which after ennumerating the powers and responsibilies of Congress opens the door to allow them to legislate on anything and everything at public expense. the words General Welfare allowed bloody Abe Lincoln to tear this nation apart in the name of union, to promote the General Welfare. Eliminate these two words from the Confidence Institution and we will have tied the hands of Congress so phomy corporations will not waste any more time and money rigging elections and making the Capitol puppets dance for corporate profit.

The internet has provided us the means to end party politics and corporate control, for the first time in U.S. History, we can network in no party grassroots political organizations which answer to no one and can educate a deliberately ignorant public. Who will join me in this work?. Visit just another view dot com to contact me.

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» RE: The Cure for Corruption Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Building A Long Term Movement Posted by: Lincoln fan
Not soon enough for me!
Posted by: badkitty on Sep 8, 2006 10:48 AM   
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Not soon enough for me!

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Biden & DLC Dems are all creeps
Posted by: Madnessfilm on Sep 9, 2006 2:39 AM   
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Its about time someone outed Biden, he is a warmongering Corporate flackey and him and all those "centrist" need to be thrown out of the Democratic party. Make this a party of TRUE progressives again, not ones beholden to the Delaware based credit card predatorial companies and the military industrial complex(as well as other big business interests). He has always been a hawk and a corporate lackey. Time to take back this country before we are all made slaves of big government and big business. I love Matt he is so right on with his articles. KEEP EM UP BABY

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bust
Posted by: rsaxto on Sep 9, 2006 2:55 AM   
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The Joe Bidens of everywhich party will continue to be with us until we legislate a real democracy where corporate power to buy legislators is reduced to zero. Also corporate personhood is a fiction which needs to be eliminated by getting rid of numerous crooks on the Supreme Court. Having completed those two huge tasks we would then have some chance of creating a decent society which would not commit mass murder all over the world.

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» RE: bust Posted by: Doubtom
Cigar store wooden Indians
Posted by: shangrilalad on Sep 9, 2006 4:53 AM   
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If there’s one vital skill Democratic politicians have to learn, it’s gut punch retorts. Standing around mute like cigar store wooden Indians riddled with termites, just doesn’t cut it. Anyone too timid, dimwitted or inarticulate to refute the rabid right’s blitzkrieg of absurd lies or childish accusations like “weak on terrorism,” doesn’t belong in politics.

Voters didn’t elect them to be punching bags, we expect them to return punch for punch. If they can’t manage that, then retire, resign or commit suicide.

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» Foaming-At-The-Mouth Mad Posted by: shangrilalad
Article misses the point; why should mercenary killers get special treatment?
Posted by: ScottGregory on Sep 9, 2006 5:21 AM   
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When Will Joe Biden Become Fair Game?
The sad thing about the article isn't the accurate representation of Joe Biden as the two-faced crook that he is, but rather than the issue of bankruptcy "reform" has been represented as an issue adverse to "our servicemen." Without reference to or explanation of how bad it is for low and middle income people in general. Like these mercenary killers (i.e., "our fighting men and women" like they are fighting for us, to protect us, etc. Blah blah) should get special exemptions from class-based adverse laws the entire rest of the citizenry is oppressed by. This is more oligarchic class divert, divide and conquer tactics, for which the entire Demothuglican Beltway conspiracy against the U.S. citizenry is in collusion with.

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» not the corporations? Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: A short seminar on Troll Tactics Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
biden his time
Posted by: wleming on Sep 9, 2006 8:43 AM   
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Joe Biden comes round when a camera is near
Hes the face of all that Republicans hold dear
Hes the oppourtunist democrat from Delaware
Hes pro war , then anti war, in transplanted hair

So heres to dear Joe, currying favor
With reactionary pals, and with labor
Joe plays both sides and the middle
Little wonder that Joe-signifys senatorial drivel

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I too hate Biden
Posted by: mat38 on Sep 9, 2006 8:52 AM   
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He's as slippery and duplicitous as they get.

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Chuch Schumer Iraq war supporter an Israeli apologist
Posted by: grazianoml on Sep 9, 2006 2:51 PM   
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I live in NY and While I know much of the nation assumes that NY politicians are liberal extremists (Hillary, Chucky) anyone who is really politically aware knows it ain't so when it comes to foriegn policy. My feeling is that 90% of the problem is that these politicians feel that they must always and absolutely support Isreal no matter what it does.

In my opinion Iraq was primarily about control of the oil fields - or at the very least guaranteeing that US companies had privileged access to said oil fields. Secondary to the oil angle, however, was the influence of the Israeli lobbyists.

I have written to Senator Schumer on occassion. I have received 2 letters from him this year (2006) which contain the following passage regarding Iraq:

"The intelligence reports that I have received indicate that although significant discoveries of weapons of mass destruction stockpiles or production capabilities have yet to take place (I received this letter in 8/2006), such discoveries remain very possible. Throughout our nation's conflict in Iraq, I have held discussions with foreign affairs experts who served under President Clinton, and are almost certain that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. I believe that it is likely that the Hussein regime concealed or destroyed these weapons in the final days before the United States took military action against Iraq or transported these weapons into Syria."

Is that unbeleivable! Despite the reports compiled by David Kay and by Charles Duelfer (among others) which made clear that Iraq had been unable to reconstitute any WMDs after the 1991 gulf war, Senator Schumer still clings to the conspiracy theory that Saddam Hussein did indeed have WMDs in 2003. Most Republicans don't even claim that at this point. Unbelievable!

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Joe Biden is obsolete and needs replacement, but isn't evil.
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob on Sep 9, 2006 3:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Y'all are being too hard on ol' Joe Biden. And I'm not a Biden fan. Matter of fact, I want to see him defeated in a primary challenge by a progressive Dem, and I've gotten dissed over at dkos by some people for my dislike of Biden.

But Biden is no Joe Lieberman. He's simply an old school Democrat and their obsolescence needs replacement.

His kind of old school Dem believes that compromise with and genteel opposition to the other party is the way to go. He doesn't realize that the Republicans under Neocons have turned into Rethugs that can only be opposed by vigorous, creative, and tough opposition.

He also likes to hear himself talk and get his ego stroked by the DC Press, wallow in their Conventional Wisdom, and is a bit corrupt in the old corporate trough system.

He's no Neocon nor a horrible man, just no longer what we need, and at this point, his kind has become part of the problem and not the solution. He doesn't join the Neocon groups like Lieberman has, but he thinks denouncing Gonzales at a hearing is enough, and then voting for him for AG is ok because you don't not vote for a President's cabinet member unless they have a sex scandal or an illegal nanny.

His kind of political strategies are harmful in their obsolete and foolishly old school world view, and he needs to be replaced.

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Biden the Idiot
Posted by: lpforti on Sep 9, 2006 5:24 PM   
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There are many politicians I can say literally make me sick, but Biden even amongst these sickening politicians elicits something more primitive in me. It’s a combination of an irritation that one feels when in the presence of a monotonous overbearing fool who refuses to shut up – you know like a Joe Lieberman type, with a creepy wouldn’t want to be stuck with this guy in the elevator feeling – like say an Orrin Hatch type. What is so disheartening is that these buffoons just keep on getting elected. What is wrong with us?

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REMEMBER: BIDEN MAY BE AN IDIOT, BUT HE'S "OUR" IDIOT!
Posted by: krose on Sep 9, 2006 9:02 PM   
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I AGREE WITH MOST OF THE ABOVE COMMENTS, & I WANT TO see many of the same changes in the DEM Party as you, BUT:

AT LEAST BIDEN IS NOT SANTORUM OR HATCH or some of the more HORRIBLE "REPUKES" out there, who could be a lot worse!

HE COULD BE "BETTER," BUT HE ALSO COULD BE "WORSE!"

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Joe Biden weak sister
Posted by: koolwoman on Sep 9, 2006 9:25 PM   
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I have always considered Joe Biden a lightweight, almost as light as Joe Lieberman. Does anyone remember how MR, Biden chaired the committee that was taking testimony on the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas hearing for Mr Thomas to sit on supreme court. They held the meetings when the smallest audience was watching. He allowed those male senators to castigate Anita Hill. I wanted to throw up. This hearing with no female senators, inspired 9 women to run for office and win.

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obichoc
Posted by: JoAnne on Sep 9, 2006 10:18 PM   
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... and the Sens. Hatch and Specter will be emblazoned in my mind forever for their stonewalling of Hill at the Thomas hearings.

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The elephant in the room
Posted by: AndreaN on Sep 9, 2006 10:39 PM   
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Thanks for calling out something that is more than likely lurking around in the minds of anyone who thinks. Good on you, dude. That smarmy Biden makes me want to puke.

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Biden's Big Brother "reporting for duty"
Posted by: edith on Sep 10, 2006 7:56 AM   
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John "Salute ME" Kerry and Joe Biden are perhaps one and the same. I read today Kerry made a speech where he demands more troops for Afghanistan. why not? After all, he and Joe Biden aren't against violently telling Muslims what kind of society to have, just where it might be poltiically inconvenient, like in Iraq. Afghanistan is geographically a nightmare compared with Iraq. So OK guys. Let's redeploy(the Democrats favorite word) our troops from to the Himalaya foothills.

Gotta be tough, eh John and Joe. Salute!

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Screw biden
Posted by: vangogh69 on Sep 10, 2006 3:26 PM   
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This guy is a joke. If I recall, he was the one advocating civil war in Iraq, the one who hasn't the balls to call this war criminal and against humanity, and who is only getting a platform because many in this country are disgusted with the republican party. However, he'd be careful not to exaggerate his opportunities...

As much as people loathe republicans, i also sense (in the first time in my lifetime I can recall, and I'm in my late 20's) people are fed up with bullshit from both parties and just want a candidate who'll do something progressive. As much as I can't stand many republican senators, if just one came out and unequivocally said "If elected, I will leave Iraq and pay reparations to Iraqis" I would likely vote for them (that is, if I were still participating in our joke of an electoral process (the election/corruption of 04' terminated that affair for me)) over the "well, we should blahblahblah" candidate. Of course, we need to keep it real and realize that we've past the point where either party will put someone forward who'll say such things. Corruption is so deeply entrenched in our government and society (i.e. the thinking of americans) that we need something stronger than a ballot to fix the problem.

Biden can go fuck himself.

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I AGREE WITH A LOT OF YOU, BUT I THINK THAT THERE ARE SOME
Posted by: krose on Sep 10, 2006 4:51 PM   
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"TROLLS" ON THIS BOARD, WHO ARE PRETENDING TO BE
liberals, just trying to get us all roused up! I want the Democratic Party to become more progressive. I intend to vote for every progressive candidate on the ballot. I was all for Lamont. But, when it is between someone like Biden and a Republican, I will take Biden every time. There ARE differences! So, those of you who ARE "TROLLS," GET LOST! YOU WILL NOT FOOL US, & YOU WILL NOT DESTROY OUR PARTY! THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY SHALL EVOLVE, & WE SHALL SURVIVE!

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A short seminar on Troll tactics & how to spot Troll postings.
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob on Sep 11, 2006 4:59 AM   
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Ways In Which doinaheckuvajob and Bill O"Reilly Are the Same

Posted by: Douglas
(1) Both of them are "ideologues" but dishonestly and vehemently claim not to be.
(2) Both of them deny--contrary to accepted informed opinion--that all perspectives and viewpoints are ideological.
(3) Both of them cannot get through a single sentence without uttering one or more ad hominem attacks.
(4) Both are partisan (and closed minded) in the narrowest possible way.
(5) Neither of them is ever willing to consider an opposing point of view.

doinaheckuvajob and Bill O'Reilly: two cuts out of the same cloth.


I love postings like the above because they are perfect Troll postings, designed to smear rather than inform or dialog-- that's one of the key distinctions of Troll postings... take note of that. It's all tactics in order to promote an agenda and slam others who threaten it, rather than engage in any kind of meaningful dialog. And this occurs not just with me (because I call out Trolls) but with anyone who happens to engage this Troll (other than those who agree with him)-- notice that, troll posts have a purpose which is what makes it different from regular folks discussing their opinions with other people, it's how the agenda is pushed that's a dead giveaway to Troll posts.

This Troll is unintentionally humorous in the tactic of the smear by attempting to link me with O'Reilly to discredit me by absurd association.

Truisms. This troll tosses out a truism-- that everyone has some kind of ideology whether they admit it or not, and claims I & O'Reilly are heinous for 'vehemently claim[ing] not to be'. Truisms are very useful propaganda techniques because they are essentially meaningless, yet they contain some kernel of truth that seems like it means something.

This troll says I can't get through a sentence without using an ad hominem attack. This is the sweeping statement, the wide brush attack approach as well as the empathize with the poor victim Troll approach. Notice the strategy.

The charge of being partisan and not considering other views is especially delicious. This is the Rovian smear-- Trolls accuse others of doing what they do on a regular basis as a deliberate strategy. All of us, being human, are at one time or another, partisan or favoring some idea or cause, and don't want to consider another view, but hopefully we try to correct that when we can. But Trolls employ partisanship and closemindedness as a strategy in all their postings to advance their cause rather than be individuals with evolving opinions, then they accuse others of it, and then try to intimidate and bully with these tactics. Notice how that works.

Now look at this Troll's post accusing me of hating Nader more than Bush.

Yet Another Way in Which doinaheckuvajobatbeinathug & Bill O'Reilly Are Soul-mates
Posted by: Douglas
Both doinaheckuvajobatbeinathug and Bill O'Reilly HATE Ralph Nader. The last time I heard someone speak so vehemently and with such hatred of Nader it was O'Reilly.... doinaheckuvajobatbeinathug hates Nader even more than he hates George Dubya Bush. He scapegoats Nader rather than blaming Gore for Gore's 2000 defeat. Bill O'Reilly and doinaheckuvajobatbeinathug: intellectual soul-mates despite their ideological differences (which they do have even though they both deny being ideologues).


It's excellent comedy because nowhere have I ever said I hated Nader more than Bush (which I don't), nor have I even talked about Nader on this thread. It's all made up stuff (that lacks integrity, folks) and is about as ad hominem as you can get. It only makes me laugh when I see Troll tactics that desperate, because this Troll has just exposed himself fully to the readers at alternet and lost all his credibility.

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What to do about Trolls?
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob on Sep 11, 2006 5:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I posted the previous post as a ridiculous example and a little lesson on how to spot Troll postings. Opinions that one disagrees with are obviously not Troll postings, but postings that use a variety of tactics to smear others here, and advance a particular agenda rather than express one's evolving opinions, that seek to intimidate and bully, or otherwise divide, confuse, distort, mislead people are likely to arouse suspicion of being a Troll. Remember, people who behave like a regular person with evolving opinions engaged in dialog without a big agenda are not Trollish, it is those who push an agenda using Troll tactics that give themselves away as Trolls.

Pushing an agenda or cause without using Troll tactics is obviously not Trollish. A perfect example of someone with an agenda that he is pushing who is not a Troll is the Lincoln Fan-- his posts are always intelligent and thoughtful, and while he plugs his worthy cause, he does not try to mislead, divide, intimidate, bully, smear, or otherwise engage in Troll tactics and propaganda techniques. He expresses his opinions on the subject at hand without trying to divert it to some other agenda, even though he still injects his plug for his cause. He is respectful of others and engages in meaningful dialog about issues here, and does not use Troll tactics just to continually push his cause.

What to do when dealing with a Troll? Ignore them, or point them out to the community. Refute their nonsense-- don't let their swiftboating lies stand-- but don't engage them in endless debate which they use to advance their nonsense and use to intimidate, divide, bully, smear, lie. Don't feed the trolls-- don't debate them and give them opportunities to continue their tactics (remember it's their tactics and their agenda that is what they are after, what they do, and what makes them Trollish). Point out the truth to the community of readers here, that is what Trolls hate the most, and they will either fall silent and disapear when that happens or show their Trollishness by posting a blistering blaze of obvious nonsense to deal with the truth.

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Also, abusive Troll posts can be reported to alternet management
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob on Sep 11, 2006 5:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a link by each comment heading that says "report this comment". If you feel a comment has been abusive (personally insulting), you can report it to alternet. Alternet says "Please only report comments that are disrespectful or completely off-topic." I have seen that they do take action on such things, and I certainly appreciate it.

I won't bother reporting Douglas' lies about me supposedly hating Nader etc. that I showed in the previous post because it was so pathetic that it just made me laugh. But I will consider doing so again if anyone lies about what I say/don't say in an attempt to discredit or abuse me. It's one thing to misunderstand innocently, it's another to make up stuff maliciously. No one should tolerate that kind of abuse.

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What A Difference A Generation (or two) Makes.
Posted by: NoPCZone on Sep 11, 2006 7:52 AM   
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When the WW II GI's came back home from war, they got the GI Bill of Rights. Unlike today's lame Montgomery GI Bill, any school they could get admitted to was paid for and it sent millions to College for the first time. It was also the birth of the VA Loan, which allowed millions to own a home for the first time. It was the birth of the modern middle class.

Veterans of Korea & Vietnam got similar, but not quite as generous, benefits as a thank you from the nation. But not in Bushworld I or II. These kids are just cannon fodder for the NeoCon wet dream. Biden is the poster child for the elitist, corporatocracy crowd. There are rules for them and rules for everybody else. If it was to his advantage to be a Republican he would switch in a NY minute.

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Not for WWI Vets, Either.
Posted by: fiskhus on Sep 11, 2006 11:24 AM   
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In spite of the fact that SOME VA benefits were paid to SOME of this country's service personnel, we should also remember the times that the "gummint" promised bennies and lied about it.

The veterans who served in WWI were promised a GI Bill - GI Benefits, a GI Bonus - but Congress and the President lied:

1) Rich politicians (and the members of the rich northeastern establishment who owns them) knew going in to WWI that they would not lift a finger to help vets - but they lied;

2) Rich politicians (and the rich criminals who own them) knew that selling supplies and materiel (i.e. weapons and ammunition) to BOTH sides of the conflict was treasonous and endangered the lives of US service personnel - but they committed that treason in the pursuit of profit;

3) Rich politicians (and the rich traitors who own them) ordered Patton to fire on vets who descended on DC to demand what they were promised; subverted the American Legion to prevent veteran demands; and fomented a coup against FDR to prevent any benefit from ever being paid to those who served.

So, in the end, la plus ca change...because Rich Republicans still despise working people and wish to see us all dead.

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THIS IS ANOTHER THING THAT THOSE OBNOXIOUS PAID TROLLS DO!
Posted by: krose on Sep 11, 2006 8:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IF THEY CANNOT "CONVERT," THEY "DIVERT" THE SUBJECT!
The subject of this article is suposed to be about Joe Biden. Does anyone remember that at this point in the article?

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