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Independent UK / By Robert Fisk
comments_imageCOMMENTS: 251

Secret Plan to Ditch the U.S. Dollar's Dominance Uncovered

Arab states have launched a secret plan with China, Russia and France to stop using the US currency for oil trading.
October 6, 2009  |  
 
 
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In the most profound financial change in recent Middle East history, Gulf Arabs are planning – along with China, Russia, Japan and France – to end dollar dealings for oil, moving instead to a basket of currencies including the Japanese yen and Chinese yuan, the euro, gold and a new, unified currency planned for nations in the Gulf Co-operation Council, including Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait and Qatar.

Secret meetings have already been held by finance ministers and central bank governors in Russia, China, Japan and Brazil to work on the scheme, which will mean that oil will no longer be priced in dollars.

The plans, confirmed to The Independent by both Gulf Arab and Chinese banking sources in Hong Kong, may help to explain the sudden rise in gold prices, but it also augurs an extraordinary transition from dollar markets within nine years.

The Americans, who are aware the meetings have taken place – although they have not discovered the details – are sure to fight this international cabal which will include hitherto loyal allies Japan and the Gulf Arabs. Against the background to these currency meetings, Sun Bigan, China's former special envoy to the Middle East, has warned there is a risk of deepening divisions between China and the US over influence and oil in the Middle East. "Bilateral quarrels and clashes are unavoidable," he told the Asia and Africa Review. "We cannot lower vigilance against hostility in the Middle East over energy interests and security."

This sounds like a dangerous prediction of a future economic war between the US and China over Middle East oil – yet again turning the region's conflicts into a battle for great power supremacy. China uses more oil incrementally than the US because its growth is less energy efficient. The transitional currency in the move away from dollars, according to Chinese banking sources, may well be gold. An indication of the huge amounts involved can be gained from the wealth of Abu Dhabi, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Qatar who together hold an estimated $2.1 trillion in dollar reserves.

The decline of American economic power linked to the current global recession was implicitly acknowledged by the World Bank president Robert Zoellick. "One of the legacies of this crisis may be a recognition of changed economic power relations," he said in Istanbul ahead of meetings this week of the IMF and World Bank. But it is China's extraordinary new financial power – along with past anger among oil-producing and oil-consuming nations at America's power to interfere in the international financial system – which has prompted the latest discussions involving the Gulf states.

Brazil has shown interest in collaborating in non-dollar oil payments, along with India. Indeed, China appears to be the most enthusiastic of all the financial powers involved, not least because of its enormous trade with the Middle East.

China imports 60 per cent of its oil, much of it from the Middle East and Russia. The Chinese have oil production concessions in Iraq – blocked by the US until this year – and since 2008 have held an $8bn agreement with Iran to develop refining capacity and gas resources. China has oil deals in Sudan (where it has substituted for US interests) and has been negotiating for oil concessions with Libya, where all such contracts are joint ventures.

Furthermore, Chinese exports to the region now account for no fewer than 10 per cent of the imports of every country in the Middle East, including a huge range of products from cars to weapon systems, food, clothes, even dolls. In a clear sign of China's growing financial muscle, the president of the European Central Bank, Jean-Claude Trichet, yesterday pleaded with Beijing to let the yuan appreciate against a sliding dollar and, by extension, loosen China's reliance on US monetary policy, to help rebalance the world economy and ease upward pressure on the euro.

Ever since the Bretton Woods agreements – the accords after the Second World War which bequeathed the architecture for the modern international financial system – America's trading partners have been left to cope with the impact of Washington's control and, in more recent years, the hegemony of the dollar as the dominant global reserve currency.

The Chinese believe, for example, that the Americans persuaded Britain to stay out of the euro in order to prevent an earlier move away from the dollar. But Chinese banking sources say their discussions have gone too far to be blocked now. "The Russians will eventually bring in the rouble to the basket of currencies," a prominent Hong Kong broker told The Independent. "The Brits are stuck in the middle and will come into the euro. They have no choice because they won't be able to use the US dollar."

Chinese financial sources believe President Barack Obama is too busy fixing the US economy to concentrate on the extraordinary implications of the transition from the dollar in nine years' time. The current deadline for the currency transition is 2018.

The US discussed the trend briefly at the G20 summit in Pittsburgh; the Chinese Central Bank governor and other officials have been worrying aloud about the dollar for years. Their problem is that much of their national wealth is tied up in dollar assets.

"These plans will change the face of international financial transactions," one Chinese banker said. "America and Britain must be very worried. You will know how worried by the thunder of denials this news will generate."

Iran announced late last month that its foreign currency reserves would henceforth be held in euros rather than dollars. Bankers remember, of course, what happened to the last Middle East oil producer to sell its oil in euros rather than dollars. A few months after Saddam Hussein trumpeted his decision, the Americans and British invaded Iraq.


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Secrets just ain't what they useta be
[Report this comment]
Posted by: just john on Oct 6, 2009 12:46 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The plans, confirmed to The Independent by both Gulf Arab and Chinese banking sources in Hong Kong, may help to explain the sudden rise in gold prices, ...."

"The Americans, who are aware the meetings have taken place – ..."

Okay, so who WAS this a secret from? The markets had heard about it, the Americans had heard about it ... Heck, I had heard about it!

Or is this another case of an Alternet editor "punching up" the story by giving it a headline that isn't really supported by the text?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Thanks for the news + link Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» New New World Order Theory Posted by: femtobeam
» Condition the Sheeple Posted by: bandofotters

Comments are closed-

The US has been borrowing from China and importing from Saudi Arabia for decades.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 6, 2009 1:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now would be a great time for the US to overthrow the ban on industrial hemp and put hemp to use. I would also recommend algae for oil. Algae can be used to produce the chemical equivilant of light sweet crude oil. Both hemp and algae can be grown almost anywhere. We will have to conserve and switch to public transportation as much as possible as well.

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» Lignin processing is expensive Posted by: femtobeam
» RE: Algae require containment... Posted by: oregoncharles

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What does this really mean?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: bh on Oct 6, 2009 1:20 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What does this really mean to the average American citizen?

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» RTFS Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: TFS Posted by: Zeugitai
» RE: What does this really mean? Posted by: Kitty Lady Oregon
» RE: IS OBAMA IN ALL THIS? Posted by: Sushi
» RE: What does this really mean? Posted by: Ray Duray
» RE: What does this really mean? Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: What does this really mean? Posted by: prtsimmons

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Start producing your own goods and energy, America
[Report this comment]
Posted by: watergrl69 on Oct 6, 2009 1:40 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reason the US is in this situation is that it has allowed most of the goods consumed in America to be imported from China. Stop consuming Chinese made goods, food, and produce your own, America.

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» RE:Marx 101 Posted by: solrev
» RE: Marx 101 Posted by: femtobeam

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It was bound to happen sooner or later
[Report this comment]
Posted by: willymack on Oct 6, 2009 1:40 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who says crime doesn't pay?
We've had our money, our pride in being Americans, and our futures stolen from us in broad daylight, and the thieves STILL aren't satisfied.
When are we going to get it all back?
Your guess is as good as mine.

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» Never Posted by: bandofotters
» Well said, sir. Posted by: zigy

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Our foreign-financed financed extravagance is going
[Report this comment]
Posted by: alturn on Oct 6, 2009 1:42 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The quality of life in America has long been propped up by a playing field created to heavily benefit the United States. That playing field now is in the process of being leveled for good.

The arrogance that enables us to believe we can control the affairs of other nations and invade whoever at will is set to crumble as the heavy debt financed by the need for the rest of the world to buy oil in dollars evaporates.

A true wilderness experience is ahead for America. Runaway pride has foreshadowed this fall. What is left to be seen is whether America will choose to lead the world into a far more just time based on the principles of sharing and cooperation or blindly lash out to maintain its ill-begotten gains.

Look to see mass protests, and new illumined voices calling for a more fair, reasoned way forward.

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» TROLL Posted by: Rosasharn

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This Story Again? Ho-hum.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: The_Curmudgeon on Oct 6, 2009 1:56 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
About once each decade since the 1970 oil embargo this story shows up. I did some reporting on it when I was an assistant editor at Business Week in the Seventies; it showed up again in the 1980s and received a brief third life in the Nineties.

The biggest problem in denominating oil prices in the Euro (or any other currency other than the US dollar) is that everything related to the oil industry - debt, equity, the value of stored reserves, and so on - is all based on the US dollar. To make such a massive change would not only sink the dollar, collapsing the world's largest economy and market for petroleum products, it would plunge the world into its second financial crisis in as many years.

Mr. Fisk is a very good reporter and, no doubt, such meetings took place. But, like meaningful health care and insurance reform, the devil is in the details and it's been the detailed that swamped previous consideration of moving oil away from the dollar.

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Dollar Imperialism...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: yellow on Oct 6, 2009 1:58 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So just why does the rest of the world tolerate the long bouts of dollar depreciation? It trims billions, if not trillions, off the value of foreign investors' already low yielding financial assets in the US and has been a stealthful method by which to cheapen foreign debt as Nixon realized in 1971 when the gold standard was ditched and which the Chinese and others are now discovering? The answer is Dollar imperialism. The US dollar is held up as an international medium of exchange regardless of its stability because of US geo-political power to dictate the terms of international trade and political agreeements.

The global oil trade is priced in US dollars. Furthermore, many countries rely on the US for security and weapons transfers; many countries' economies rely on an inflow of US dollars due to a mammoth US military presence. Because most US foreign investment is in manufacturing and other forms of production, these countries require dollars to sustain their economies. The US domestic market is the world's largest and is thus the US is the "buyer of last resort." Thus, foreign central banks, like that of China, invest in US Treasury Securities to (a)support the value of the US Dollar and, (b)protect their export markets. Finally, US financial securities are among the safest in the world despite their low returns; trillions flooded into US financial markets in the early 2000s despite the recession because of this fact.

So long as US hegemony is unchallenged, dollar imperialism will succeed in supporting the US dollar as a major reserve currency regardless of its international exchange rate. Perhaps this is the reason that US imperialism and military expansionism are unceasing policies; they support the US economy and keep it from collapsing in an age of declining US economic strength.

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» RE: Dollar Imperialism... Posted by: femtobeam
» Clarification for USA Bashers Posted by: femtobeam

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It's by design, not by accident.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: lclark on Oct 6, 2009 2:01 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most U.S. dollars are as electronic digits in foreign countries.

This dumping of the dollar was discussed as the latest G-20.

It will mean the burden of debt will be uncontrollable and the U.S. will be is the same position it helped place many developing nations, under the boot of multinational corporations and non-national institutions like the IMF.

Just wait until they start dictating how we need to sell more national assets to private interests and reduce social security payments to meet the obligations we have to the multinational financial institutions.

We've been had BIG TIME by our so called representatives on the take from globalists.

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» RE: It's by design, not by accident. Posted by: Sister_Lauren

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This is what happens to empires
[Report this comment]
Posted by: leafsong1 on Oct 6, 2009 2:13 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Empire, like any economic bubble, is unsustainable. It eventually collapses of its own weight. Its primary purpose, to benefit the ruling class, morphs inexorably from a secret network of perks and covert corruption into a state religion of submission to the powerful. The pigs at the top lose sight of the fact that the rest of us have no rational reason to participate in their racket. They get sloppy and greedy, and then others get wise. The idiot masses gradually catch on to the fact that theirs is but to do or die, and they decide that they would rather attend to their own needs.

The maggots of corruption feast on the flesh and sinews that support the dying beast. Desperately, empire claws for the next morsel of humanity to consume, but no amount of sustenance can save it now.

Former and potential victims unite in collective interest. Rivals become bold, and then grave. Its vitality sapped by corruption, apathy, and the massive effort of supporting military conquest on an ever increasing scale in the context of both, EVERY EMPIRE reaches the point of exhaustion and defeat.

What can be changed is the hardness of the fall. An empire that declines gracefully into a moderately powerful and relatively peaceful nation can recover from the madness of imperial ambition with little adverse consequences for most of its people. An empire that resists the realities of imperial collapse to the bitter end in an attempt to squeeze out a little more short term profit for the ruling class, on the other hand, perishes in flames.

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» i think we'll perish in flames... Posted by: lupuslefou

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Oh lordy!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: zipper696 on Oct 6, 2009 2:20 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...The Chinese believe, for example, that the Americans persuaded Britain to stay out of the euro in order to prevent an earlier move away from the dollar..."

--------------------------

In that case the Chinese are not just inscrutable but ill informed. I was in England during the shall we/shan't we farce of going into the Euro. All the latent Xenophobia and racism came forth with the red top papers leading the way with headlines like "Up yours, Delors" - all subtle stuff!
There was no way the Brits were ever gonna get the chance to join the Eurozone, the Bank of England was too entrenched (some might say, in bed with) banks and finance houses in the UK.

On a seperate note, why am I not surprised that our good friends and staunch allies The Saudis are deep into this? Those scumbags have double dealt with the US forever, apparently as long as they (literally) hold hands with a member of the Bush family, all is forgiven - including the 15 Saudis of the 19, 9/11 hijackers...

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» RE: Oh lordy! Posted by: femtobeam
» Not so fast, Speedy Gonzales Posted by: login@bugmenot.com

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What a surprise
[Report this comment]
Posted by: greenferret on Oct 6, 2009 2:23 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Neoliberalism coming to its logical conclusion.

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» RE: What a surprise Posted by: sicntired

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One great thing about a weak dollar and inflation: all the "gimmeeenows! gimmeeemores!" who...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: franklyspanking on Oct 6, 2009 2:24 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...financed houses they couldn't afford, and furnished them with credit card debt might actually be able to pay off their loans of $150k-300k when the price of bread rises to $15 per loaf.

And, yeah, that loaf will have been produced domestically, as it would be too expensive to import by that point.

Take heart: republicans and democrats and their religious followers may have bankrupted the country and ruined the dollar, but you might finally be able to afford some decent furniture milled from American timber!

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Makes sense.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: wardropper on Oct 6, 2009 2:38 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We really must learn that to foreigners there is no particular reason why the dollar should mean anything more than their own or any other foreign currency.
Americans have been taught to think for the last hundred years that their point of view is the only point of view.
If dealing with the dollar turns out to be a pain in the neck to other countries, they will deal with something else.
We would do exactly the same.

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The Chinese May Be Doing a Kissinger in Response To Threatened US Military Escalation in Afghanistan
[Report this comment]
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Oct 6, 2009 2:47 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the 70's Kissinger & Co did a deal with OPEC, which involved an enormous escalation in oil prices - which was highly profitable to the Middle Eastern oligarchs, with the agreement that all oil would be traded in US Dollars.

The economic balance has now shifted to China, because the US has allowed its real economy to collapse. The US Military response since Obama, is even worse than Bush/Cheney from a Chinese perspective. Whilst the Chinese could tolerate intervention in Iraq, they too can watch youtube videos of Webster Tarpley, just like anyone else, and its possible, if the Chinese Government aren't bought and paid for by the usual mechanisms, that they will take such threats seriously.

What Americans don't seem to realise, is that China doesn't actually need to export to America, and could actually simply replace American consumption by domestic Chinese consumption - simply by raising the incomes of its workers in the Henry Ford model.

Tony

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» Utopia Posted by: femtobeam

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Mebbe
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ClassAct on Oct 6, 2009 3:00 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mebbe so, but see Mike Whitney's take down of this article on CounterPunch: Dollar Hysteria

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» RE: Thank you for your clarity... Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: Thank you for your clarity... Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» fisk is a bit paranoid, Posted by: sirios

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gimmie shelter
[Report this comment]
Posted by: gimmie shelter on Oct 6, 2009 3:26 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems America(really the bankers) have run out of countries to bully for their lunch money. Soon we will be Mexico with a bomb.

This is the fate that our government and those on Wall Street have dealt us. I hope that at some point those who have caused this calamity will be brought to some form of justice so that "we the people", can at least know that the suffering that we will do will not be as bad as the suffering that they will do.

Long live the working Americans.

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» RE: gimmie shelter Posted by: pdevillier

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Another Robert from England...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Johnnysakai on Oct 6, 2009 5:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...Robert Newman, explains this brilliantly in "History of Oil" on YouTube. Highly recommended viewing.

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I thought that was why you invaded Iraq...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN on Oct 6, 2009 5:26 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
just say'n.


perspective, people.


Perspective.

The Jeff Farias Show: streams FREE & LIVE Mon-Fri, 6-9pmEDT

FREE podcast

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Where's the meat?....
[Report this comment]
Posted by: L5 on Oct 6, 2009 7:03 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article is big on hearsay and offers no tangible supporting evidence.

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Who needs a secret plan?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: sicntired on Oct 6, 2009 8:01 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The arab states might just be up to here with US policy in the middle east and want to use the euro.Who died and made the US god?We don't need no steenkin dollars.

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Amazing
[Report this comment]
Posted by: azbeener on Oct 6, 2009 8:29 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow, is anyone really surprised by this move? The US dollar is useless!

RT
Ultimate Anonymity

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» RE: Amazing Posted by: jimmyaj

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Mr. Patrick Laurent DeVillier
[Report this comment]
Posted by: pdevillier on Oct 6, 2009 9:35 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear All,

I am keeping this comment post simple. No fear. No anxiety. The USA can "retract" into isolationism and will most certainly come out the better for it.

Re-populate our state-side bases, invest in "our" national military security, protect "our" national resources, etc.

Default on international debt...turn every ship of cheap, low quality Chinese goods around and let them sell them elsewhere...we once made the best products in the world...and we shall do so again...even if it is only for our US state-side consumption....

We have the resources, the intelligence, and the desire to implement the elements of a US state-side based viable, locally based economy...

Retract from the global economy!!

Watch out for China, Russia, etc...if we take care of ourselves in our retracted, ecologically sustainable and viable path forward...we will be ready for their challenges...and further to the point, leave them to manage their own crap...I've been to China...it is a miserable country...you can see that it was once very beautiful...but it has been consumed by over population...as if locusts had swarmend all over it...and that is what they are going to do to the rest of the world...

My dear beloved fellow Americans...heed the signals...let's circle the wagons at home...continue to build the USA that we know may be inclusive of those who wish to share our spiritual principles...and turn out those that would be spiteful, warful, etc....let China, the Arab countries, Russia, the nay sayers in Europe grapple with themselves...while they do this, let us invest heart, soul, blood, sweat, & tears in creating the next level of these beautful Unites States of America.

Love Forever More,

Patrick Laurent De Villier of Petaluma, California

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» RE: Mr. Patrick Laurent DeVillier Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: Mr. Patrick Laurent DeVillier Posted by: Johnnysakai

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What secret plan?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: jimmyaj on Oct 6, 2009 10:03 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anybody with more than half a brain has seen this coming for a few years now.

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I Don't Blame Them
[Report this comment]
Posted by: rgoalierob on Oct 7, 2009 3:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America needs to start making stuff again.
We should be retro-fitting the closed auto plants to make energy efficient trains, busses, and cars.
We can make good stuff here, that everyone wants. Oh yeah, stop invading countries. That would save a few bucks, too.

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Commenters here are just idiotic!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Ghoulman on Oct 7, 2009 3:58 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reading the comments here, I'm amazed. Don't any one of you twits have any fucking clue what you're going on about?

This is the most important story regarding the economic future of the USA on this planet and all I hear is confused bitching and the typical trolls.

Good luck you Americans... stupid, miserable, fuckers.

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» RE: Commenters here are just idiotic! Posted by: gimmie shelter

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You believe what you read in the Independent?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Philor on Oct 7, 2009 4:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A secret plan to ditch the dollar, but only the Independent knows about it! Yeah, right!

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A basketful of currencies? Good idea...Let's join.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: drosera on Oct 7, 2009 5:22 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A world currency based upon a basketful of national currencies. Sounds like a good idea to me. The dollar should be part of the basket. Sure oil prices would go up for us, but that is not an entirely bad thing. Maybe we will take fuel conservation seriously.

Also, we wouldn't be creating so much debt, and that is how Wall Street makes money, isn't it? No more Fed hitting a few keystrokes on their computer to create a few trillion. Americans, because of their hubris, would never subscribe to a world currency, but when things really go to hell, they might go along.

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A sleeping giant: A Chinese Empire
[Report this comment]
Posted by: peacelf on Oct 7, 2009 9:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Chinese have all the makings of a huge empire superpower:
*Low wage labor
*A burgeoning industrial system
*Close proximity to Middle East oil
*Trade imbalance in their favor
*US's huge debt
*Nuclear weapons
*Formidable army
*Nihilistic growth policies
*Totalitarian governance

In the face of all these things and the US dependence on China and all of our economic problems means the US has lost control of its dominance in the world, and that's a good thing!

The US has been imposing its nefarious order on world affairs too long. Greed and corruption, violence and manipulation, lies and more lies to the world and to our citizens has finally reach its Karmatic climax and the chickens have come home to roost.

Had the U.S. set a New World Example instead of seeking a New World Order, we wouldn't be having this conversation today.

I hope we come out of the other side better than we are, now.
Let it be written...Let it be done.

Peace

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It is the messy entanglements in wars and trade that got us into this mess.
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Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Oct 7, 2009 9:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would like to point out that it is our trade policies and allowing some of the big corporations to play traitors against us that is the culprit. It is time we the people stopped relying on those big crooks and turned to small and local business for a change. The countries that are about to ditch our dollar are the same ones we have been relying too much on thanks to bad business models and foundations such as putting quantity sales over quality production. maxpayne, watergrl69, and femtobeam gave some interesting ideas on the need to grow one's own locally. It is high time we stopped falling for the crooked lies about quantity sales being more important and focused on quality production long term. Money is a useless entity when there is nothing of value left to show for it. The perpetual money money money madness must STOP. "Free" trade would cease to exist the more people put quality over quantity.

I also think that the Arab nations are silently punishing us for persecuting and killing the sweetheart civilians whose lives are already oppressed by their dictators. I am no foreign policy guru but having read a lot from all sides, it breaks my heart to see these poor souls suffer thanks to puppet dictators and crooked pols from the US, Canada, some of Europe, etc... deciding against the interests of those sweetheart civilians. :(

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An Interesting Challange
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Posted by: Gaubladt on Oct 7, 2009 10:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The US could see this as a problem to be solved.
The solution would be to declare economic war on BIG OIL.
Then it would need to develop an alternate source of energy quickly.
Then it would need to create an easy distribution method.
Then it would need to dump energy in markets all over the world until oil becomes too expensive to pump out of the ground and distill.
Then we will have a truly Green Revolution. And USA will still be top dog. For whatever it's worth: but the process will be progressive, and a benefit to humanity as a whole.
So let's do it.

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» RE: An Interesting Challange Posted by: femtobeam

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The Iranian Oil Bourse
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Posted by: Vince Coit on Oct 7, 2009 11:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These countries, Russia, China, Iran, and the others, are fully within their rights to do what they are doing, and are acting rationally by ending the U.S. domination of financial markets, it’s legalized counterfeiting, furthermore its imperialism.

All international banking negotiation goes on in secret. It is just the American people who are most successfully kept in the dark, thanks to corporate media.

This story was known at least as early as early-2005 as the Iranian oil bourse. You can google “Iranian oil bourse”, check some of the external links in the wiki-pages. The final sentence of this article is very important; Iraq would definitely have joined this bourse, hence the invasion. In the Iraq war, there were internal profiteering activities, but geo-politically speaking, we invaded to keep Iraq out that bourse, at least I believe that, I am not alone. Shifting away from dollars will increase the government’s interest expense as the market for bonds will decline. Thus, we won’t be able to regenerate new debt, as the old debt comes due, as inexpensively as in the past. To avoid this, we should not increase the money supply as we have consistently done.

This nation, as a nation, has benefited tremendously, from being proximate to the government’s legalized counterfeiting. All the increases in the money supply amount to nothing more than legalized counterfeiting. Review your economics of banking, and note the proximity-related benefits to counterfeiting. In short, a local community in which the funny-money is circulated always benefits due to increased trade within the community.

It is basically fraud, the white-collar crime endemic to all the banking industry. Banking is essentially fraud. That is going to end, as it should. And, the national debt will need to be retired. This must be done by adding progressivity to the tax code, and, the sooner this is done, the better. Hyper-inflation need not occur, if the debt is retired. This cannot wait. I have been saying this for over a year.

If the federal government is not willing to tax the rich to create surpluses necessary to retire the debt, then the scenario, or my speculation of it, is much darker, and amounting to serfdom for the vast majority of American people, the end of democracy (which may end anyway, with different sets of causal factors), shooting war (or at least trade-war) with China. We have this debt, and not paying back the federal government’s debt amounts to fraud. I did not sign on for bearing the weight of the government’s fraud. I am not a fraud. Our children aren’t frauds either.

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So, when do we invade China?
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Posted by: zigy on Oct 7, 2009 12:49 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is not as dire as Mr. Fisk makes it sound. These countries have the sense to unwind slowly and incrementally from the dollar. They've seen the banksters cause enough problems to add to that.

Will a domestic hyperinflation result? The answer to that question is beyond my economic acumen.

What is of concern to me is a rather mysterious video of Dick Morris (yes, that Dick Morris) proclaiming that Obama agreed at the G-20 in Pittsburg to essentially give up national economic soverignty to a group of "...international economists who will subordinate American interests to international interests..." don't quite know what to make of this....

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My question, so what will happen to the value of the dollar?
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Posted by: tim_s_eb@yahoo.com on Oct 7, 2009 12:53 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Will it go into a free fall causing hyper inflation while everyone with dollars will rush to convert it to gold? Will we see the repeat of Germany deep and long lasting economic collapse?

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Sounds like some sort of Conspiracy Theory to me.
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Posted by: rafaeltoral on Oct 7, 2009 2:34 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
hah

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PROSECUTION SAYS, "WE'RE SORRY!"
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Posted by: AlwaysAskWhy on Oct 7, 2009 3:34 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is just one more example of WHY Bush and Cheney should have been impeached and prosecuted wayyyy back when. The gravy train was just too profitable for Wall Street, Congress, and the WAR PROFITEERS, to challenge it, now wasn't it??!! LIES, mass murder, mayhem, TORTURE, chaos, starvation, rapes, embezzlement, job losses, political oppression, illegal arrests and indefinite detentions, DESTROYING OUR VERY CONSTITUTION, family evictions... the list is endless... ALL PROFITABLE!!

I'm so grateful that the final paragraph confirmed what we've all known for years: that the REAGAN/BUSH MAFIA invaded IRAQ after their appointed TYRANT, Saddam Hussein, screwed them by converting his oil currency to the Euro!!! Reagan and Bush created Saddam Hessein, funded him, aided and abetted his genocide and, prior to that, they couldn't have cared less who he tortured or murdered.

Clearly, the war on Afghanistan and Iraq were and are WARS-FOR-PROFIT, which IS MASS MURDER -- of well over ONE MILLION innocent human beings, whose only crime was to be living on top of the OIL MAFIA's bread and butter.

I challenge the mainstream media to TELL AMERICANS THE TRUTH.

IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO PROSECUTE THESE MASS MURDERERS, LIARS, SWINDLERS, RAPISTS, TORTURERS.

PROSECUTION OF THE BUSH MAFIA AND THE WALL STREET MAFIA (including Greenspan, Robert Rubin, Larry Summers, Hank Paulson, et al) SAYS, "WE'RE SORRY!!"

PROSECUTION IS probably the ONLY apology the world will accept from this ignorant, indifferent, self-involved, arrogant and greedy population of so-called "Americans" for letting themselves be bamboozled by criminals who have caused so much harm, not only around the world, but to voters themselves, their families and communities, and this nation.

Prosecution of these creeps may be the ONLY true DEMOCRATIC ACTION THIS NATION CAN TAKE TO AFFIRM 'DEMOCRACY' ITSELF.

WE SHOULD ALL BE SOOO ASHAMED THAT SO MANY HAVE BEEN HARMED, KILLED, ETC., ALL OVER THE WORLD, BECAUSE WE LOOKED AWAY AND THOUGHT OF OURSELVES FIRST.

(excluding myself, who was one of the many millions around the world who Bush called "focus groups", protesting in the streets and speaking out non-stop against the invasion.)

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Secrets Re-vealed?
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Posted by: rew1956 on Oct 7, 2009 4:04 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Quite honestly with reports out the we have in our boundaries of our own country, there is enough OIL to last Two Thousand Years according to our own Government, this was a Government report put out in 2008.

So why do you not look to the fact that since we do not need foreign Oil whatsoever, that we continue to even both trading for Oil? Simple, there is no incentive to become a self sustaining economy, simply put, we need to go after foreign Oil because we have issues about democratizing the WORLD! In other words, we want a true one world order, that is run just like the US Government is run, of course by anyone else except the United States Citizens! Please forget the fact that Oil Industries in America would be compromised with little to no financial gain! Next this is why we will never truly go after a green economy, since again there is no incentive to do so!

I am including the words and information regarding the above statement, I would like to tell all readers to check this out yourselves, and do not believe me!

Below and I will continue with the next post, please look for the entire story there!

Here's an interesting read
Also if I may add, about 6 months ago I was watching a news program on oil and one of the Forbes Bros. was the guest. This is out of context, but this is the actual question as asked. The host said to Forbes, "I am going to ask you a direct question and I would like a direct answer, how much oil does the U.S. have in the ground." Forbes did not miss a beat, he said, "more than all the Middle East put together." Please read and continued on next blog PART TWO!.

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Strange. Very strange.
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Posted by: Hans B on Oct 7, 2009 5:14 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can readily believe that countries like China, Japan and France want to manage the dollar's decline, to avoid too abrupt movements. I find it harder to believe they are planning such a decline, which would wipe out a large part of China's and Japan's savings while making European products uncompetitive - think Airbus vs Boeing. Sounds as if they were planning to jump off a bridge together.

More likely, the continuing US trade deficit coupled with the loss of confidence in speculative markets has made people realize that the dollar cannot forever be the world's reserve currency, and that it's better to plan for the painful change than to be hit on the head by it.

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» Good for you Hans. Posted by: Lemuel G.
» This link says it all. Posted by: femtobeam

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The real reason we're after Iran?
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Oct 7, 2009 8:36 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The Chinese have oil production concessions in Iraq – blocked by the US until this year – and since 2008 have held an $8bn agreement with Iran to develop refining capacity and gas resources."
. . . . .

Uh, huh ...

This is probably the real reason the U.S. is sooo interested in clamping down on Iran: the Iranians are building a nuclear industry for domestic power generation, just as they've stated, so that they can sell their oil for income ... to the Chinese, not us.

To paraphrase Marvin the Martian: "This makes me (us) sooooo angry!"

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This Had to Happen
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Posted by: PaulK on Oct 7, 2009 8:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Starting in 1981 (Ronald Reagan's budget), America switched to the Brazil model of national solvency. Keep printing more money!

Brazil found that eventually almost all people caught on. As a rule, the Brazilian cruzado's (cruzerio's, real's) worth dropped every year, then it dropped every month, then every day. The currency bills needed an extra zero. Soon the currency needed six extra zeros and the government made up a new name for its currency for the next three years, on and on.

Banks invested people's savings in baskets of stocks, because stocks kept their value in real terms. The rule was, don't keep anything denominated in cruzados.

The Arab countries may personally like the U.S., but our money is no good. The dollar has sunk from 1.2 Euros to .65 Euros. Who among the wealthy would keep a bond that pays -7% interest every year, that will be worthless in 20 years? So, the Arab countries will trade in Euros, in Yen, in anything safe to hold.

I expect most of the semi-stupid world to catch on too. Sooner or later? Hmm.

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DROPPING US CURRENCY
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Posted by: pfm on Oct 8, 2009 2:52 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is only American hubris which prevents us from acknowledging that perhaps our time in the sun is ending and that a new paradigm is emerging. Our ego and self-absorption is simply amazing, the world does not begin nor end with us and it will continue.

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» RE: DROPPING US CURRENCY Posted by: femtobeam
» RE: DROPPING US CURRENCY Posted by: davewuxi
» RE: DROPPING US CURRENCY Posted by: femtobeam
» RE: DROPPING US CURRENCY Posted by: mkdelta69

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jordan shoes
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Posted by: adan on Oct 9, 2009 3:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
nike jordan 2

Air Jordan 7

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fashion shop
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Posted by: shop on Oct 9, 2009 5:25 AM   
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Get Real
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Posted by: Judynz1 on Oct 10, 2009 2:55 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lets get REAL. All that is happening was planned long ago ago. Anyone involved in method is a bit player.
Good guys, Bad guys. All planned. No-one is a saviour.
The world is a stage & each are playing our part...even getting sucked into believing what is is real. You must throw out ALL YOU BELIEVE & start again or reality stays the same.

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maker-sat
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Posted by: aymen87 on Oct 11, 2009 1:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
maker-sat download music film free gratuit
maker-sat download music film free gratuit
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thanks
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Posted by: sabul33 on Oct 11, 2009 3:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's very interesting

kpli

Taiping Hotel

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gimmie shelter
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Posted by: gimmie shelter on Oct 11, 2009 7:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We should be ditching the dollar also to try to contain the largess of the corporations and individuals. Their is no rational to support what we have in America today. It needs to end.

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USA
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Posted by: shaoye on Oct 17, 2009 9:56 PM   
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Secret?
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Posted by: craigtt on Oct 21, 2009 7:52 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ha ha, are you kidding?!

M4V to AVI

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Alternet Comments:

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Secrets just ain't what they useta be
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Posted by: just john on Oct 6, 2009 12:46 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The plans, confirmed to The Independent by both Gulf Arab and Chinese banking sources in Hong Kong, may help to explain the sudden rise in gold prices, ...."

"The Americans, who are aware the meetings have taken place – ..."

Okay, so who WAS this a secret from? The markets had heard about it, the Americans had heard about it ... Heck, I had heard about it!

Or is this another case of an Alternet editor "punching up" the story by giving it a headline that isn't really supported by the text?

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» RE: Thanks for the news + link Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» New New World Order Theory Posted by: femtobeam
» Condition the Sheeple Posted by: bandofotters

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The US has been borrowing from China and importing from Saudi Arabia for decades.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 6, 2009 1:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now would be a great time for the US to overthrow the ban on industrial hemp and put hemp to use. I would also recommend algae for oil. Algae can be used to produce the chemical equivilant of light sweet crude oil. Both hemp and algae can be grown almost anywhere. We will have to conserve and switch to public transportation as much as possible as well.

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» Lignin processing is expensive Posted by: femtobeam
» RE: Algae require containment... Posted by: oregoncharles

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What does this really mean?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: bh on Oct 6, 2009 1:20 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What does this really mean to the average American citizen?

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» RTFS Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: TFS Posted by: Zeugitai
» RE: What does this really mean? Posted by: Kitty Lady Oregon
» RE: IS OBAMA IN ALL THIS? Posted by: Sushi
» RE: What does this really mean? Posted by: Ray Duray
» RE: What does this really mean? Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: What does this really mean? Posted by: prtsimmons

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Start producing your own goods and energy, America
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Posted by: watergrl69 on Oct 6, 2009 1:40 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reason the US is in this situation is that it has allowed most of the goods consumed in America to be imported from China. Stop consuming Chinese made goods, food, and produce your own, America.

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» RE:Marx 101 Posted by: solrev
» RE: Marx 101 Posted by: femtobeam

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It was bound to happen sooner or later
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Posted by: willymack on Oct 6, 2009 1:40 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who says crime doesn't pay?
We've had our money, our pride in being Americans, and our futures stolen from us in broad daylight, and the thieves STILL aren't satisfied.
When are we going to get it all back?
Your guess is as good as mine.

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» Never Posted by: bandofotters
» Well said, sir. Posted by: zigy

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Our foreign-financed financed extravagance is going
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Posted by: alturn on Oct 6, 2009 1:42 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The quality of life in America has long been propped up by a playing field created to heavily benefit the United States. That playing field now is in the process of being leveled for good.

The arrogance that enables us to believe we can control the affairs of other nations and invade whoever at will is set to crumble as the heavy debt financed by the need for the rest of the world to buy oil in dollars evaporates.

A true wilderness experience is ahead for America. Runaway pride has foreshadowed this fall. What is left to be seen is whether America will choose to lead the world into a far more just time based on the principles of sharing and cooperation or blindly lash out to maintain its ill-begotten gains.

Look to see mass protests, and new illumined voices calling for a more fair, reasoned way forward.

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» TROLL Posted by: Rosasharn

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This Story Again? Ho-hum.
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Posted by: The_Curmudgeon on Oct 6, 2009 1:56 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
About once each decade since the 1970 oil embargo this story shows up. I did some reporting on it when I was an assistant editor at Business Week in the Seventies; it showed up again in the 1980s and received a brief third life in the Nineties.

The biggest problem in denominating oil prices in the Euro (or any other currency other than the US dollar) is that everything related to the oil industry - debt, equity, the value of stored reserves, and so on - is all based on the US dollar. To make such a massive change would not only sink the dollar, collapsing the world's largest economy and market for petroleum products, it would plunge the world into its second financial crisis in as many years.

Mr. Fisk is a very good reporter and, no doubt, such meetings took place. But, like meaningful health care and insurance reform, the devil is in the details and it's been the detailed that swamped previous consideration of moving oil away from the dollar.

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Dollar Imperialism...
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Posted by: yellow on Oct 6, 2009 1:58 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So just why does the rest of the world tolerate the long bouts of dollar depreciation? It trims billions, if not trillions, off the value of foreign investors' already low yielding financial assets in the US and has been a stealthful method by which to cheapen foreign debt as Nixon realized in 1971 when the gold standard was ditched and which the Chinese and others are now discovering? The answer is Dollar imperialism. The US dollar is held up as an international medium of exchange regardless of its stability because of US geo-political power to dictate the terms of international trade and political agreeements.

The global oil trade is priced in US dollars. Furthermore, many countries rely on the US for security and weapons transfers; many countries' economies rely on an inflow of US dollars due to a mammoth US military presence. Because most US foreign investment is in manufacturing and other forms of production, these countries require dollars to sustain their economies. The US domestic market is the world's largest and is thus the US is the "buyer of last resort." Thus, foreign central banks, like that of China, invest in US Treasury Securities to (a)support the value of the US Dollar and, (b)protect their export markets. Finally, US financial securities are among the safest in the world despite their low returns; trillions flooded into US financial markets in the early 2000s despite the recession because of this fact.

So long as US hegemony is unchallenged, dollar imperialism will succeed in supporting the US dollar as a major reserve currency regardless of its international exchange rate. Perhaps this is the reason that US imperialism and military expansionism are unceasing policies; they support the US economy and keep it from collapsing in an age of declining US economic strength.

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» RE: Dollar Imperialism... Posted by: femtobeam
» Clarification for USA Bashers Posted by: femtobeam

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It's by design, not by accident.
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Posted by: lclark on Oct 6, 2009 2:01 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most U.S. dollars are as electronic digits in foreign countries.

This dumping of the dollar was discussed as the latest G-20.

It will mean the burden of debt will be uncontrollable and the U.S. will be is the same position it helped place many developing nations, under the boot of multinational corporations and non-national institutions like the IMF.

Just wait until they start dictating how we need to sell more national assets to private interests and reduce social security payments to meet the obligations we have to the multinational financial institutions.

We've been had BIG TIME by our so called representatives on the take from globalists.

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» RE: It's by design, not by accident. Posted by: Sister_Lauren

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This is what happens to empires
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Oct 6, 2009 2:13 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Empire, like any economic bubble, is unsustainable. It eventually collapses of its own weight. Its primary purpose, to benefit the ruling class, morphs inexorably from a secret network of perks and covert corruption into a state religion of submission to the powerful. The pigs at the top lose sight of the fact that the rest of us have no rational reason to participate in their racket. They get sloppy and greedy, and then others get wise. The idiot masses gradually catch on to the fact that theirs is but to do or die, and they decide that they would rather attend to their own needs.

The maggots of corruption feast on the flesh and sinews that support the dying beast. Desperately, empire claws for the next morsel of humanity to consume, but no amount of sustenance can save it now.

Former and potential victims unite in collective interest. Rivals become bold, and then grave. Its vitality sapped by corruption, apathy, and the massive effort of supporting military conquest on an ever increasing scale in the context of both, EVERY EMPIRE reaches the point of exhaustion and defeat.

What can be changed is the hardness of the fall. An empire that declines gracefully into a moderately powerful and relatively peaceful nation can recover from the madness of imperial ambition with little adverse consequences for most of its people. An empire that resists the realities of imperial collapse to the bitter end in an attempt to squeeze out a little more short term profit for the ruling class, on the other hand, perishes in flames.

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» i think we'll perish in flames... Posted by: lupuslefou

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Oh lordy!
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Posted by: zipper696 on Oct 6, 2009 2:20 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...The Chinese believe, for example, that the Americans persuaded Britain to stay out of the euro in order to prevent an earlier move away from the dollar..."

--------------------------

In that case the Chinese are not just inscrutable but ill informed. I was in England during the shall we/shan't we farce of going into the Euro. All the latent Xenophobia and racism came forth with the red top papers leading the way with headlines like "Up yours, Delors" - all subtle stuff!
There was no way the Brits were ever gonna get the chance to join the Eurozone, the Bank of England was too entrenched (some might say, in bed with) banks and finance houses in the UK.

On a seperate note, why am I not surprised that our good friends and staunch allies The Saudis are deep into this? Those scumbags have double dealt with the US forever, apparently as long as they (literally) hold hands with a member of the Bush family, all is forgiven - including the 15 Saudis of the 19, 9/11 hijackers...

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» RE: Oh lordy! Posted by: femtobeam
» Not so fast, Speedy Gonzales Posted by: login@bugmenot.com

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What a surprise
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Posted by: greenferret on Oct 6, 2009 2:23 PM   
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Neoliberalism coming to its logical conclusion.

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» RE: What a surprise Posted by: sicntired

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One great thing about a weak dollar and inflation: all the "gimmeeenows! gimmeeemores!" who...
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Posted by: franklyspanking on Oct 6, 2009 2:24 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...financed houses they couldn't afford, and furnished them with credit card debt might actually be able to pay off their loans of $150k-300k when the price of bread rises to $15 per loaf.

And, yeah, that loaf will have been produced domestically, as it would be too expensive to import by that point.

Take heart: republicans and democrats and their religious followers may have bankrupted the country and ruined the dollar, but you might finally be able to afford some decent furniture milled from American timber!

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Makes sense.
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Posted by: wardropper on Oct 6, 2009 2:38 PM   
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We really must learn that to foreigners there is no particular reason why the dollar should mean anything more than their own or any other foreign currency.
Americans have been taught to think for the last hundred years that their point of view is the only point of view.
If dealing with the dollar turns out to be a pain in the neck to other countries, they will deal with something else.
We would do exactly the same.

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The Chinese May Be Doing a Kissinger in Response To Threatened US Military Escalation in Afghanistan
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Oct 6, 2009 2:47 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the 70's Kissinger & Co did a deal with OPEC, which involved an enormous escalation in oil prices - which was highly profitable to the Middle Eastern oligarchs, with the agreement that all oil would be traded in US Dollars.

The economic balance has now shifted to China, because the US has allowed its real economy to collapse. The US Military response since Obama, is even worse than Bush/Cheney from a Chinese perspective. Whilst the Chinese could tolerate intervention in Iraq, they too can watch youtube videos of Webster Tarpley, just like anyone else, and its possible, if the Chinese Government aren't bought and paid for by the usual mechanisms, that they will take such threats seriously.

What Americans don't seem to realise, is that China doesn't actually need to export to America, and could actually simply replace American consumption by domestic Chinese consumption - simply by raising the incomes of its workers in the Henry Ford model.

Tony

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» Utopia Posted by: femtobeam

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Mebbe
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Posted by: ClassAct on Oct 6, 2009 3:00 PM   
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Mebbe so, but see Mike Whitney's take down of this article on CounterPunch: Dollar Hysteria

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» RE: Thank you for your clarity... Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: Thank you for your clarity... Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» fisk is a bit paranoid, Posted by: sirios

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gimmie shelter
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Posted by: gimmie shelter on Oct 6, 2009 3:26 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems America(really the bankers) have run out of countries to bully for their lunch money. Soon we will be Mexico with a bomb.

This is the fate that our government and those on Wall Street have dealt us. I hope that at some point those who have caused this calamity will be brought to some form of justice so that "we the people", can at least know that the suffering that we will do will not be as bad as the suffering that they will do.

Long live the working Americans.

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» RE: gimmie shelter Posted by: pdevillier

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Another Robert from England...
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Posted by: Johnnysakai on Oct 6, 2009 5:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...Robert Newman, explains this brilliantly in "History of Oil" on YouTube. Highly recommended viewing.

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I thought that was why you invaded Iraq...
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Posted by: BlueBerry PickN on Oct 6, 2009 5:26 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
just say'n.


perspective, people.


Perspective.

The Jeff Farias Show: streams FREE & LIVE Mon-Fri, 6-9pmEDT

FREE podcast

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Where's the meat?....
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Posted by: L5 on Oct 6, 2009 7:03 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article is big on hearsay and offers no tangible supporting evidence.

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Who needs a secret plan?
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Posted by: sicntired on Oct 6, 2009 8:01 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The arab states might just be up to here with US policy in the middle east and want to use the euro.Who died and made the US god?We don't need no steenkin dollars.

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Amazing
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Posted by: azbeener on Oct 6, 2009 8:29 PM   
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Wow, is anyone really surprised by this move? The US dollar is useless!

RT
Ultimate Anonymity

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» RE: Amazing Posted by: jimmyaj

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Mr. Patrick Laurent DeVillier
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Posted by: pdevillier on Oct 6, 2009 9:35 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear All,

I am keeping this comment post simple. No fear. No anxiety. The USA can "retract" into isolationism and will most certainly come out the better for it.

Re-populate our state-side bases, invest in "our" national military security, protect "our" national resources, etc.

Default on international debt...turn every ship of cheap, low quality Chinese goods around and let them sell them elsewhere...we once made the best products in the world...and we shall do so again...even if it is only for our US state-side consumption....

We have the resources, the intelligence, and the desire to implement the elements of a US state-side based viable, locally based economy...

Retract from the global economy!!

Watch out for China, Russia, etc...if we take care of ourselves in our retracted, ecologically sustainable and viable path forward...we will be ready for their challenges...and further to the point, leave them to manage their own crap...I've been to China...it is a miserable country...you can see that it was once very beautiful...but it has been consumed by over population...as if locusts had swarmend all over it...and that is what they are going to do to the rest of the world...

My dear beloved fellow Americans...heed the signals...let's circle the wagons at home...continue to build the USA that we know may be inclusive of those who wish to share our spiritual principles...and turn out those that would be spiteful, warful, etc....let China, the Arab countries, Russia, the nay sayers in Europe grapple with themselves...while they do this, let us invest heart, soul, blood, sweat, & tears in creating the next level of these beautful Unites States of America.

Love Forever More,

Patrick Laurent De Villier of Petaluma, California

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» RE: Mr. Patrick Laurent DeVillier Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: Mr. Patrick Laurent DeVillier Posted by: Johnnysakai

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What secret plan?
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Posted by: jimmyaj on Oct 6, 2009 10:03 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anybody with more than half a brain has seen this coming for a few years now.

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I Don't Blame Them
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Posted by: rgoalierob on Oct 7, 2009 3:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America needs to start making stuff again.
We should be retro-fitting the closed auto plants to make energy efficient trains, busses, and cars.
We can make good stuff here, that everyone wants. Oh yeah, stop invading countries. That would save a few bucks, too.

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Commenters here are just idiotic!
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Oct 7, 2009 3:58 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reading the comments here, I'm amazed. Don't any one of you twits have any fucking clue what you're going on about?

This is the most important story regarding the economic future of the USA on this planet and all I hear is confused bitching and the typical trolls.

Good luck you Americans... stupid, miserable, fuckers.

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» RE: Commenters here are just idiotic! Posted by: gimmie shelter

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You believe what you read in the Independent?
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Posted by: Philor on Oct 7, 2009 4:18 AM   
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A secret plan to ditch the dollar, but only the Independent knows about it! Yeah, right!

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A basketful of currencies? Good idea...Let's join.
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Posted by: drosera on Oct 7, 2009 5:22 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A world currency based upon a basketful of national currencies. Sounds like a good idea to me. The dollar should be part of the basket. Sure oil prices would go up for us, but that is not an entirely bad thing. Maybe we will take fuel conservation seriously.

Also, we wouldn't be creating so much debt, and that is how Wall Street makes money, isn't it? No more Fed hitting a few keystrokes on their computer to create a few trillion. Americans, because of their hubris, would never subscribe to a world currency, but when things really go to hell, they might go along.

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A sleeping giant: A Chinese Empire
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Posted by: peacelf on Oct 7, 2009 9:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Chinese have all the makings of a huge empire superpower:
*Low wage labor
*A burgeoning industrial system
*Close proximity to Middle East oil
*Trade imbalance in their favor
*US's huge debt
*Nuclear weapons
*Formidable army
*Nihilistic growth policies
*Totalitarian governance

In the face of all these things and the US dependence on China and all of our economic problems means the US has lost control of its dominance in the world, and that's a good thing!

The US has been imposing its nefarious order on world affairs too long. Greed and corruption, violence and manipulation, lies and more lies to the world and to our citizens has finally reach its Karmatic climax and the chickens have come home to roost.

Had the U.S. set a New World Example instead of seeking a New World Order, we wouldn't be having this conversation today.

I hope we come out of the other side better than we are, now.
Let it be written...Let it be done.

Peace

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It is the messy entanglements in wars and trade that got us into this mess.
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Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Oct 7, 2009 9:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would like to point out that it is our trade policies and allowing some of the big corporations to play traitors against us that is the culprit. It is time we the people stopped relying on those big crooks and turned to small and local business for a change. The countries that are about to ditch our dollar are the same ones we have been relying too much on thanks to bad business models and foundations such as putting quantity sales over quality production. maxpayne, watergrl69, and femtobeam gave some interesting ideas on the need to grow one's own locally. It is high time we stopped falling for the crooked lies about quantity sales being more important and focused on quality production long term. Money is a useless entity when there is nothing of value left to show for it. The perpetual money money money madness must STOP. "Free" trade would cease to exist the more people put quality over quantity.

I also think that the Arab nations are silently punishing us for persecuting and killing the sweetheart civilians whose lives are already oppressed by their dictators. I am no foreign policy guru but having read a lot from all sides, it breaks my heart to see these poor souls suffer thanks to puppet dictators and crooked pols from the US, Canada, some of Europe, etc... deciding against the interests of those sweetheart civilians. :(

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An Interesting Challange
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Posted by: Gaubladt on Oct 7, 2009 10:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The US could see this as a problem to be solved.
The solution would be to declare economic war on BIG OIL.
Then it would need to develop an alternate source of energy quickly.
Then it would need to create an easy distribution method.
Then it would need to dump energy in markets all over the world until oil becomes too expensive to pump out of the ground and distill.
Then we will have a truly Green Revolution. And USA will still be top dog. For whatever it's worth: but the process will be progressive, and a benefit to humanity as a whole.
So let's do it.

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» RE: An Interesting Challange Posted by: femtobeam

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The Iranian Oil Bourse
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Posted by: Vince Coit on Oct 7, 2009 11:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These countries, Russia, China, Iran, and the others, are fully within their rights to do what they are doing, and are acting rationally by ending the U.S. domination of financial markets, it’s legalized counterfeiting, furthermore its imperialism.

All international banking negotiation goes on in secret. It is just the American people who are most successfully kept in the dark, thanks to corporate media.

This story was known at least as early as early-2005 as the Iranian oil bourse. You can google “Iranian oil bourse”, check some of the external links in the wiki-pages. The final sentence of this article is very important; Iraq would definitely have joined this bourse, hence the invasion. In the Iraq war, there were internal profiteering activities, but geo-politically speaking, we invaded to keep Iraq out that bourse, at least I believe that, I am not alone. Shifting away from dollars will increase the government’s interest expense as the market for bonds will decline. Thus, we won’t be able to regenerate new debt, as the old debt comes due, as inexpensively as in the past. To avoid this, we should not increase the money supply as we have consistently done.

This nation, as a nation, has benefited tremendously, from being proximate to the government’s legalized counterfeiting. All the increases in the money supply amount to nothing more than legalized counterfeiting. Review your economics of banking, and note the proximity-related benefits to counterfeiting. In short, a local community in which the funny-money is circulated always benefits due to increased trade within the community.

It is basically fraud, the white-collar crime endemic to all the banking industry. Banking is essentially fraud. That is going to end, as it should. And, the national debt will need to be retired. This must be done by adding progressivity to the tax code, and, the sooner this is done, the better. Hyper-inflation need not occur, if the debt is retired. This cannot wait. I have been saying this for over a year.

If the federal government is not willing to tax the rich to create surpluses necessary to retire the debt, then the scenario, or my speculation of it, is much darker, and amounting to serfdom for the vast majority of American people, the end of democracy (which may end anyway, with different sets of causal factors), shooting war (or at least trade-war) with China. We have this debt, and not paying back the federal government’s debt amounts to fraud. I did not sign on for bearing the weight of the government’s fraud. I am not a fraud. Our children aren’t frauds either.

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So, when do we invade China?
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Posted by: zigy on Oct 7, 2009 12:49 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is not as dire as Mr. Fisk makes it sound. These countries have the sense to unwind slowly and incrementally from the dollar. They've seen the banksters cause enough problems to add to that.

Will a domestic hyperinflation result? The answer to that question is beyond my economic acumen.

What is of concern to me is a rather mysterious video of Dick Morris (yes, that Dick Morris) proclaiming that Obama agreed at the G-20 in Pittsburg to essentially give up national economic soverignty to a group of "...international economists who will subordinate American interests to international interests..." don't quite know what to make of this....

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My question, so what will happen to the value of the dollar?
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Posted by: tim_s_eb@yahoo.com on Oct 7, 2009 12:53 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Will it go into a free fall causing hyper inflation while everyone with dollars will rush to convert it to gold? Will we see the repeat of Germany deep and long lasting economic collapse?

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Sounds like some sort of Conspiracy Theory to me.
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Posted by: rafaeltoral on Oct 7, 2009 2:34 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
hah

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PROSECUTION SAYS, "WE'RE SORRY!"
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Posted by: AlwaysAskWhy on Oct 7, 2009 3:34 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is just one more example of WHY Bush and Cheney should have been impeached and prosecuted wayyyy back when. The gravy train was just too profitable for Wall Street, Congress, and the WAR PROFITEERS, to challenge it, now wasn't it??!! LIES, mass murder, mayhem, TORTURE, chaos, starvation, rapes, embezzlement, job losses, political oppression, illegal arrests and indefinite detentions, DESTROYING OUR VERY CONSTITUTION, family evictions... the list is endless... ALL PROFITABLE!!

I'm so grateful that the final paragraph confirmed what we've all known for years: that the REAGAN/BUSH MAFIA invaded IRAQ after their appointed TYRANT, Saddam Hussein, screwed them by converting his oil currency to the Euro!!! Reagan and Bush created Saddam Hessein, funded him, aided and abetted his genocide and, prior to that, they couldn't have cared less who he tortured or murdered.

Clearly, the war on Afghanistan and Iraq were and are WARS-FOR-PROFIT, which IS MASS MURDER -- of well over ONE MILLION innocent human beings, whose only crime was to be living on top of the OIL MAFIA's bread and butter.

I challenge the mainstream media to TELL AMERICANS THE TRUTH.

IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO PROSECUTE THESE MASS MURDERERS, LIARS, SWINDLERS, RAPISTS, TORTURERS.

PROSECUTION OF THE BUSH MAFIA AND THE WALL STREET MAFIA (including Greenspan, Robert Rubin, Larry Summers, Hank Paulson, et al) SAYS, "WE'RE SORRY!!"

PROSECUTION IS probably the ONLY apology the world will accept from this ignorant, indifferent, self-involved, arrogant and greedy population of so-called "Americans" for letting themselves be bamboozled by criminals who have caused so much harm, not only around the world, but to voters themselves, their families and communities, and this nation.

Prosecution of these creeps may be the ONLY true DEMOCRATIC ACTION THIS NATION CAN TAKE TO AFFIRM 'DEMOCRACY' ITSELF.

WE SHOULD ALL BE SOOO ASHAMED THAT SO MANY HAVE BEEN HARMED, KILLED, ETC., ALL OVER THE WORLD, BECAUSE WE LOOKED AWAY AND THOUGHT OF OURSELVES FIRST.

(excluding myself, who was one of the many millions around the world who Bush called "focus groups", protesting in the streets and speaking out non-stop against the invasion.)

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Secrets Re-vealed?
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Posted by: rew1956 on Oct 7, 2009 4:04 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Quite honestly with reports out the we have in our boundaries of our own country, there is enough OIL to last Two Thousand Years according to our own Government, this was a Government report put out in 2008.

So why do you not look to the fact that since we do not need foreign Oil whatsoever, that we continue to even both trading for Oil? Simple, there is no incentive to become a self sustaining economy, simply put, we need to go after foreign Oil because we have issues about democratizing the WORLD! In other words, we want a true one world order, that is run just like the US Government is run, of course by anyone else except the United States Citizens! Please forget the fact that Oil Industries in America would be compromised with little to no financial gain! Next this is why we will never truly go after a green economy, since again there is no incentive to do so!

I am including the words and information regarding the above statement, I would like to tell all readers to check this out yourselves, and do not believe me!

Below and I will continue with the next post, please look for the entire story there!

Here's an interesting read
Also if I may add, about 6 months ago I was watching a news program on oil and one of the Forbes Bros. was the guest. This is out of context, but this is the actual question as asked. The host said to Forbes, "I am going to ask you a direct question and I would like a direct answer, how much oil does the U.S. have in the ground." Forbes did not miss a beat, he said, "more than all the Middle East put together." Please read and continued on next blog PART TWO!.

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Strange. Very strange.
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Posted by: Hans B on Oct 7, 2009 5:14 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can readily believe that countries like China, Japan and France want to manage the dollar's decline, to avoid too abrupt movements. I find it harder to believe they are planning such a decline, which would wipe out a large part of China's and Japan's savings while making European products uncompetitive - think Airbus vs Boeing. Sounds as if they were planning to jump off a bridge together.

More likely, the continuing US trade deficit coupled with the loss of confidence in speculative markets has made people realize that the dollar cannot forever be the world's reserve currency, and that it's better to plan for the painful change than to be hit on the head by it.

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» Good for you Hans. Posted by: Lemuel G.
» This link says it all. Posted by: femtobeam

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The real reason we're after Iran?
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Oct 7, 2009 8:36 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The Chinese have oil production concessions in Iraq – blocked by the US until this year – and since 2008 have held an $8bn agreement with Iran to develop refining capacity and gas resources."
. . . . .

Uh, huh ...

This is probably the real reason the U.S. is sooo interested in clamping down on Iran: the Iranians are building a nuclear industry for domestic power generation, just as they've stated, so that they can sell their oil for income ... to the Chinese, not us.

To paraphrase Marvin the Martian: "This makes me (us) sooooo angry!"

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This Had to Happen
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Posted by: PaulK on Oct 7, 2009 8:53 PM   
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Starting in 1981 (Ronald Reagan's budget), America switched to the Brazil model of national solvency. Keep printing more money!

Brazil found that eventually almost all people caught on. As a rule, the Brazilian cruzado's (cruzerio's, real's) worth dropped every year, then it dropped every month, then every day. The currency bills needed an extra zero. Soon the currency needed six extra zeros and the government made up a new name for its currency for the next three years, on and on.

Banks invested people's savings in baskets of stocks, because stocks kept their value in real terms. The rule was, don't keep anything denominated in cruzados.

The Arab countries may personally like the U.S., but our money is no good. The dollar has sunk from 1.2 Euros to .65 Euros. Who among the wealthy would keep a bond that pays -7% interest every year, that will be worthless in 20 years? So, the Arab countries will trade in Euros, in Yen, in anything safe to hold.

I expect most of the semi-stupid world to catch on too. Sooner or later? Hmm.

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DROPPING US CURRENCY
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Posted by: pfm on Oct 8, 2009 2:52 PM   
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It is only American hubris which prevents us from acknowledging that perhaps our time in the sun is ending and that a new paradigm is emerging. Our ego and self-absorption is simply amazing, the world does not begin nor end with us and it will continue.

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» RE: DROPPING US CURRENCY Posted by: femtobeam
» RE: DROPPING US CURRENCY Posted by: davewuxi
» RE: DROPPING US CURRENCY Posted by: femtobeam
» RE: DROPPING US CURRENCY Posted by: mkdelta69

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Posted by: shop on Oct 9, 2009 5:25 AM   
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Get Real
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Posted by: Judynz1 on Oct 10, 2009 2:55 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lets get REAL. All that is happening was planned long ago ago. Anyone involved in method is a bit player.
Good guys, Bad guys. All planned. No-one is a saviour.
The world is a stage & each are playing our part...even getting sucked into believing what is is real. You must throw out ALL YOU BELIEVE & start again or reality stays the same.

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Posted by: aymen87 on Oct 11, 2009 1:13 AM   
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Posted by: sabul33 on Oct 11, 2009 3:01 AM   
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That's very interesting

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gimmie shelter
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Posted by: gimmie shelter on Oct 11, 2009 7:53 AM   
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We should be ditching the dollar also to try to contain the largess of the corporations and individuals. Their is no rational to support what we have in America today. It needs to end.

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Posted by: craigtt on Oct 21, 2009 7:52 PM   
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Ha ha, are you kidding?!

M4V to AVI

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