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What's Really Behind Conservative Pundit George Will's Call for Total Withdrawal From Afghanistan?

Neocons went into a froth of anger over Will's open call for an end to the war in Afghanistan -- which is exactly what he was hoping for.
October 3, 2009  |  
 
 
 
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On Sept. 1, conservative columnist George Will published a seemingly out-of-nowhere, eye-popping op-ed for the Washington Post titled, "Time to Get out of Afghanistan." The piece, which called for "a comprehensively revised policy" involving drastic troop reductions, prompted a battery of rebuttals from right-wing pundits.

But although Will was accused of everything from bald cowardice to faulty arithmetic, his so-called 'defection' was miles from a random maneuver. Rather, it was a calculated provocation -- one sensitive to a political climate in which our prickly discourse on Afghanistan has immense transformative power.

Will, above all else, understood the landscape onto which he was discharging his ideas. About 2 1/2 months before he published his op-ed, members of the House voted down an amendment proposed by Rep. Jim McGovern, D-Mass., that called on the Pentagon to draft an exit strategy for Afghanistan.

Democrats, undoubtedly balancing the political viability of continuing President Barack Obama's "good war" against increasing public distaste for said war, were split on the decision: 131-114 (57 percent to 43 percent). Republican representatives, whose party M.O. has in recent years been characterized (and to some degree nourished) by an indiscriminate hawkishness, did not echo the Dems' recalcitrance. They walloped the proposal 164-7.

There were no real wild cards among the seven GOP defectors. John "Jimmy" Duncan, a self-proclaimed "Robert Taft conservative" from Tennessee, had enunciated his anti-war position rather clearly in 2003, when he compared the invasion of Iraq to "the University of Tennessee football team taking on a second-grade football team -- it's unbelievable."

Then there was Illinois Rep. Timothy V. Johnson, another fiscal conservative, who in 2007 was comparably vocal about his contempt for President George W. Bush's surge: "People believe, and I believe, that we are at a point in history where, unless we have dramatic change in direction, we can wind up being mired and continue to lose large numbers of lives -- American, Iraqi and others -- indefinitely," Johnson said at the time. "I'm not going to be a part of it."

Joining Duncan and Johnson were Howard Coble, R-N.C.; former Democrat Walter Jones Jr., R-N.C.; Dana Rohrbacher, R-Calif.; Ed Whitfield, R-Ky.; and Ron Paul, R-Texas. Their combined vote -- cast when a majority of Americans (57 percent, according to a recent Pew Research Center poll) believed the U.S. should maintain a presence in Afghanistan until the country is stable -- was a self-consciously empty, if prideful, political exercise more akin to a nerd struggling feebly in a bully's headlock than to a real ideological coup. It posed no threat to the Republican paradigm.

No threat, that is, until Will delivered his seething critique of the U.S.'s Afghanistan policy. In his unambiguously titled piece, Will argued that Afghanistan was a country whose political climate has never been stable enough to accommodate the U.S.'s "hold and build" goals.

All of a sudden, conservative critiques of Afghanistan were not only plausible -- they were shoved to the forefront of debate.

"Counterinsurgency theory concerning the time and the ratio of forces required to protect the population indicates that, nationwide, Afghanistan would need hundreds of thousands of coalition troops, perhaps for a decade or more," Will wrote. "That is inconceivable."

"Forces should be substantially reduced to serve a comprehensively revised policy," he concluded. "America should do only what can be done from offshore, using intelligence, drones, cruise missiles, air strikes and small, potent special forces units, concentrating on the porous 1,500-mile border with Pakistan, a nation that actually matters."

The piece, broadly viewed as a "bombshell" defection, accomplished two things. It: a) reached millions, and b) obscured a once-unquestioned logical link between Republicanism and hypermilitancy. For these reasons, it was immediately panned by a gaggle of hawkish, right-wing analysts whose definition of conservatism had never endured such a two-pronged gouging.

Writing for the Washington Post, William Kristol argued that Will's plan said "nothing of the broader consequences of defeat in the Afghan theater in the war against the jihadists."


Byard Duncan is a contributing writer and editor for AlterNet.
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moodotv
Posted by: Moodotv on Oct 3, 2009 3:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Senator Collins is correct- (please see above).
The corruption and the terrain are insurmountable.
You do not change culture by imposition but by long slow development. The solid rock mountain range in the east near Pakistan provides a great view of any attackers. It is desert as well. Do not go there. I saw it in l955.
Let's help the NW provinces of Pakistan to become
educated and have health care. Do not leave it up to the Saudis only to provide religious schools.
Read Three Cups of Tea- a paperback.

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» Will wants out of Iraq too Posted by: citizenjoe

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"Divide & Conquer"-Going after the Far Left and Libertarian Voters
Posted by: Purple Girl on Oct 3, 2009 4:48 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Will the Left be Conned hook line and sinker, by this new found "logic"? It's possible considering the reverence by which you worte this piece.
Please Will is nothing more than a mouthpiece trying out a test balloon, in hopes of confusing and decieving the Anti War voters and the Isolationist Libertarians.
This is about gaining numbers for the '12 election. First Step in Re writing history in progress is to begin to flip flop your stance on the issue.After 8 yrs of Bush's ineptitude, it's suddenly time to 'cut and Run'?? Of Course because now It has become "Obama's War"- utter BS!
The Repugs are really trying to straddle this debate in such a way it is a Win Win for them. Obama sends more troops, he becomes the 'War Monger', eleviating W & Cheney of those Titled Crowns.If he doesn't he remains 'weak on defense'.
Sending more troops- makes insinuating it is 'Obama's War' more concrete.Their 'journalists' Can finally begin revealing the "new" corruption and missteps,which they had helped cover up over the last 8. And be the ones Screaming about the cost of 'Blood and Money'. Repugs the new torch bearers of the Anti War movement??? Kinda like suddenly being the champion of patient's rights."Citizens for Patient Rights"-My Ass! What part of that Logo has a Repug ever favored?? Repugs have 'Double Speak' down to a fine art.
But..
If he choose not to send troops or not as many as McCrystal asked for- He is 'proving' the Dems are weak on National security and foreign policy. If there is an uptick, or even the status quo of terrorist attacks, each will be attributed to Obama's decision Not to send more troops. If it reverts back to the same level of terrorist domination like the 'last time we left Afgahnistan', they will try to link those two events in the political historical minds of American's. "Charlie Wilsons War" will be the defining chronology of what transpired under the Reagan Admin.
The Repugs are not only hoping to Spin the facts about the last 8 yrs - but 30.And not just the Covert ops in Afganistan, but also those messy details like Iran contra,and Saddam's Anthrax attack on the Kurds. Not to mention the 2 Iraq 'wars'. If they can hand Obama and the Dem the responsiblity for the entire fiasco called the Neo Con era- they would be ecstatic.
George Will has not changed his spots- he's just working the otherside of the herd. The repugs are playing yet another two sided game where not only Dems lose, but so do the Rest of US. Will is a Red Herring,and anyone using half their brain cells knows it.

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» RE: continued... Posted by: Sister_Lauren

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That's An Easy Question!
Posted by: Carol Burns on Oct 3, 2009 6:46 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's analagous to the Reich-wing hyperbole about the TARP gift to the financial sector, which was Bush's baby, who keep trying to confuse it in the minds of the public with the stimulus (Obama's plan), which might actually offer some economic relief to regular citizens. After 8 years of war in Afghanistan, suddenly the Repubs would like to blame Obama for Bush's failures. They want to make it Obama's war, Obama's "reckless spending". We know better. That's why the "town halls" and the "march on Washington" are such a farce.

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Where Empires Go to Die
Posted by: JSquercia on Oct 3, 2009 7:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Afghanistan is the place where empires go to die .I believe that No one has ever conquered
Afghanistan .I read somewhere where even Alexander the Great decided it was not worth the cost and left .
There is talk about negotiating with the "good" Taliban which may be a face saving way out ,

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A stolen election in 2000,
Posted by: weathered on Oct 3, 2009 7:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
9/11, Irag/Afgn theft and torture, a profound redistribution/consolidation of wealth - All committed in broad daylight and choreographed by an MSM monster who's job it is to Lie.


Take back the media, see the MSM monster for exactly what it is;an accomplice to the crimes.

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» 911 TOOTH! 911 TOOTH! 911 TOOTH! Posted by: GuitarBill

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Trained terrorists?
Posted by: geekman on Oct 3, 2009 7:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do wish people would stop saying that the terrorists that attacked us got their training in Afghanistan. Think...what did they do? They smuggled sharp objects onboard an airliner and took over the cockpit and flew the planes into buildings. The most complicated element of that plan is flying the planes. Where did they get that training? HERE! You don't have to be in some special, secluded terrorist encampment to learn to smuggle box cutters. The measures the US has taken to screen passengers and to screen potential pilots are what has stopped any further such attacks.

How about the USS Cole? Again, you don't need a special terrorist country to learn how to make a bomb. McVeigh did it here.

My point is, if Afghanistan becomes a terrorist haven again, so what? People that hate the US or hate anyone else will find a way to manifest their hate. We should stop bombing civilians and putting our own troops at risk for some ideal of "ridding the world of terrorists" that is never going to happen. Better security at home, and more importantly, giving them fewer reasons to hate us, will work a lot better.

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» RE: Trained terrorists? Posted by: krock

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we're sending the wrong people
Posted by: sharonsylvie on Oct 3, 2009 8:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only people we should be sending to Afghanistan are teachers, engineers, agricultural experts, scientists, and doctors. Armed, of course, for protection. But sending uniformed soldiers is not helping raise this country out of poverty and ignorance. If Obama continues Bush's policies, we will have another Vietnam. But I sometimes wonder if we're always in some kind of war for (1) the benefit of the military/industrial complex, and (2) because there are no jobs for young Americans.

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» RE: there is a truism for all wars Posted by: Sister_Lauren

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THE AFGANISTAN 'MAKEOVER'
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 3, 2009 8:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Afgans have lived the way they do for almost a thousand years. Half a million troops and 5-10 years is not a committment we should make. How does that prevent an attack? We can't endear ourselves to these people when all we do is kill women and childen all in the name of trying to help. We destroyed parts of Iraq, Baghdad is a shambles. The Iraqis in the millions had to leave their homes and go to Syria and Jordan. Where will the Afgans go? And why should people be driven from their homes in the first place. War is not an 'end' in itself. There should be a well defined purpose that can be explained to the American people and the Afgans. So far (8 yrs.) the only thing we hear out of Afganistan is about how many people got killed. Obama and McChrystal are not in agreement. The General had to be reminded that he has a Constitiutional obligation to take his marching orders from his Commander in Chief. It's not the other way around. George Will is right, and Obama is wise not to rush into another mess that's already too old. Nobody listened to similar warnings about Iraq. Making the same mistake a second time is unthinkable. ANNA

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The purpose of the war was a pipe line and opium
Posted by: billwald on Oct 3, 2009 9:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our owners got their pipeline across Afghanistan to warm water and opium production has been restored. Time to get out.

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Whatever
Posted by: maxsmart on Oct 3, 2009 12:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He never said these things when Bush and Cheney were in so what does that tell you. He's trying to make it a democrat war but he still supports predators and their rather aweful unlawful impact on unknown targets. But whatever, we must get out and abandon predatory practices.

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Libertarians are not "isolationist"
Posted by: lightwing1 on Oct 3, 2009 2:03 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
they are "non-interventionist". There is a difference which I am not going to outline here. Time to do some research instead of making specious assumptions that aren't true.

And I found this statement to be particularly noxious:

"Their combined vote...was a self-consciously empty, if prideful, political exercise more akin to a nerd struggling feebly in a bully's headlock than to a real ideological coup. It posed no threat to the Republican paradigm."

What - a Republican can't vote based on principle? How sad that the author doesn't recognize the courage that it takes to vote against one's own party and laud that instead of dismissing these votes as "prideful" and "feeble". These representatives pay a price for their non-alignment stance.

The author's attempt to paint all republicans as "neo-con war hawks" is pathetic and erroneous. Of course the majority are, but that doesn't negate the fact that some took a stand against the Afghan war. Those who did, should be celebrated, not scoffed at.

Pathetic.

I am proud that Libertarians are non-interventionist and marched in the infamous February 2003 Anti-War march in SF. So, should I not have added my body and my protest to that anti-war march because I am a Libertarian and therefore insignificant, statistically?

Maybe I'll just stay home next time I align with the Dems on any issue - say eradicating the Drug War or Civil Rights. I mean, you lads and ladies are so righteous that you don't need political allies, do you?

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Remember the names
Posted by: willymack on Oct 3, 2009 2:37 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Commies used to call us?
Imperialistic war mongers. Greedy Capitalists.Running dogs, etc.
Those names don't sound so silly, now, do they?

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another red herring AlterNOT yarn for FASCIST USA
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Oct 3, 2009 4:35 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can always tell when an MSM political writer is vastly impressed with himself. Lots of wordy, empty and blatant insinuations, metaphors, retread quotes, etc, from corporate media that echo the usual Fascist Washington-MSM freak show party line.

And what is the Fascist Party line?

That America is still a somewhat dysfunctional democracy under “capitalism” governed by the “left” “right” and “center” of a system that represents the people.

Hint: that party line does not describe Fascism .

First of all the recently labeled so-called NeoCons (virtually all rabid Wall Street Zionists) are in charge of runway stooge Obama as they were village idiot GW Bush. There are virtually no real “conservatives” at Washington as is proven out by every imperial war vote under every puppet president in memory. And of course there are few real “progressives” - whatever that means - as can be seen by constant democratic 9/11 “war on terror” support that is backed by 1000 lies and counting since the 9/11 coverup . (according to the Center for Public Integrity).

So what does that leave us with?

A decoy farce.

The great American fraud ruled and owned by Organized Corporate Crime or in a word – FASCISM .

Writers like Duncan are tossed in to stir the pot and tell us we are a land divided into phony “left” vs “right” camps when there is no such division let alone a bogus “center” at the top of the Fascist Washington-MSM circus.

In point of fact, one of the only real stories of any worth AlterNOT should be covering is the latest break in the continuing Sibel Edmonds story: the 9/11 coverup whisteblower that both the phony “left” “right” to “center” at the Washington-MSM Fascist carny show simply can’t face. And why? Facing Sibel Edmonds charges would bring down the entire government with its whore-monger media as the sordid treason and betrayal it is.

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» Naomi Wolf? Really? No kidding? Posted by: GuitarBill
» Gee Pointy, what's your point? Posted by: GuitarBill
» Don't take my word for it Posted by: GuitarBill

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It would be correct move
Posted by: peter vojta on Oct 4, 2009 6:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
US should stop export " wars, military bases and terror", nobody is interested in US style of fashist democracy and their debilitating educational system.
Moment they elect somebody like Ron Paul, they will win back the respect they lost.....

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It is just another political pundit playing with the public's feelings.
Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Oct 4, 2009 7:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
George Will, while he might appear to play nice, cannot be taken seriously. He is a well established neoconservative and suddenly saying that we should withdraw from Afghanistan is suspect at best. If Will really means it, he will have to be consistent over time about it in order to prove that he really has changed his mind. For now, he is probably exploiting the Democrats' weaknesses and pretending to fill that anti-war anti-occupation void. I would like to believe him on this one but I'm keeping my fingers crossed until he shows over time that he really means what he says on Afghanistan.

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Is an increase in US troop levels in Afghanistan bad policy?
Posted by: Garvagh on Oct 4, 2009 12:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thoughtful piece. If the pollsters asked the Americans: "Do you support an increase in US troop levels in Afghanistan, at huge cost, when this likely will only make the security situation worse?", how many would say they want more US troops thrown into the fray?

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Will wants out of Iraq too
Posted by: citizenjoe on Oct 4, 2009 12:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On Sept 4 in the WaPo, Will called for Iraq withdrawal too.

Of course, Will is as much a national supremacist as the rest of the so called "conservative" cabal: William (dark glass) Kristol, Robert (wingless Vulcan) Kagan, Sleeza Rice, etc. So why does he want the Empire to retreat (always a dangerous move for Empires as it suggests weakness and less than omnipotence)? My guess is he has two reasons: 1) he sees that the war has been lost already (no establishment of democracy or even stability and order of a dictatorial variety; besides, it has become far too expensive, demoralizing, and most of all the Iraqi referendum will be a debilitating humiliation as bad as the American high tail out of Vietnam; 2) the Republicans will get a shot in the arm, a chance for revival, if Obama, already seen as confused and weak, leaves the battle that strongman Bush began. -- Joe

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Will wants out of Iraq too
Posted by: citizenjoe on Oct 4, 2009 12:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On Sept 4 in the WaPo, Will called for Iraq withdrawal too.

Of course, Will is as much a national supremacist as the rest of the so called "conservative" cabal: William (dark glass) Kristol, Robert (wingless Vulcan) Kagan, Sleeza Rice, etc. So why does he want the Empire to retreat (always a dangerous move for Empires as it suggests weakness and less than omnipotence)? My guess is he has two reasons: 1) he sees that the war has been lost already (no establishment of democracy or even stability and order of a dictatorial variety; besides, it has become far too expensive, demoralizing, and most of all the Iraqi referendum will be a debilitating humiliation as bad as the American high tail out of Vietnam; 2) the Republicans will get a shot in the arm, a chance for revival, if Obama, already seen as confused and weak, leaves the battle that strongman Bush began. -- Joe

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WAR!
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Oct 5, 2009 8:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You know, coming from someone other than George Will - I might actually take it seriously! I was never for the war in Afghanistan, but I do recall Will and most of the right wingnuts vociferously advancing their own war-like stances for all out invasion!

And for those that continue to call this Obama's war - how dare you forget that it was BushCo. that not only invaded Afghanistan, but trumped up the "evidence" to divert into Iraq (weapons of mass deception, anyone)! 8 years, hundreds of thousands of lives lost, and for what? Osama who, al-Qaeda who - look this was all about EMPIRE & AVARICE period! This was about a bunch of chicken-shit people that didn't serve in VietNam because they all had other things to do - and yet these people had NO problem sending other peoples children to die!

This is not now nor was it ever about democracy! Hell, there isn't democracy in America! This was about EMPIRE! And the best that can happen is that the US pull out and allow the Afghani's to try and rebuild their own nation! As a matter of fact, pull most of the US troops from Europe, and the M.E.! And never again should this nation allow itself to be dragged into someone else's wars of CHOICE!!

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» Calm down, love. Posted by: LightningJoe

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Where Empires Go to Die? Not this time.
Posted by: LightningJoe on Oct 6, 2009 7:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sure, if we wanted the country for ourselves, acting like an empire, then we would ultimately ourselves decide that the place "can't be conquered" due to its forbidding terrain and (by far not the least) all of the natives who don't want to be conquered.

But we are not there for possession, but to shore up and vitalize the country in its own right -- because a vital Afghanistan is a bulwark against Muslim extremism. It is also smack next to Pakistan -- over a famously porous border. Pakistan is a state with very pressing terrorist problems of its own, that also happens to have a dozen (or so?) nukes for the spoils of whoever takes the country over.

Can you say "National Security Interest," children? What will be the new Republican talking point, when a nuke goes off in a shipping container, and takes out half of New Jersey? Do you think they'll say "Well, this is our own fault, for pushing Obama to get out of Afghanistan." ???

Hell no! If it ever got that far, the story would change again, and it would be Obama's fault the whole way. Don't get sucked into the Reich's strategy.

We are there not to conquer, but to bolster Afghanistan against the Wild Ones, and Afghanistan's government knows this very well. So does Pakistan, who are working out action agreements with us even now. You can hold your head high, with a real statesman in the Oval Office for a change. All we need is patience, because Obama's heart is in the right place.

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Blackpool Accommodation
Posted by: Blackpool Hotels on Oct 31, 2009 5:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have just read this story and I recently stayed at a Blackpool hotel the Norbreck Castle Hotel and enjoyed my hotel stay in Blackpool. Norbreck Castle is part of Britannia Hotels which has many popular hotel accommodation such as the Britannia Hotel Manchester.

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Alternet Comments:

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moodotv
Posted by: Moodotv on Oct 3, 2009 3:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Senator Collins is correct- (please see above).
The corruption and the terrain are insurmountable.
You do not change culture by imposition but by long slow development. The solid rock mountain range in the east near Pakistan provides a great view of any attackers. It is desert as well. Do not go there. I saw it in l955.
Let's help the NW provinces of Pakistan to become
educated and have health care. Do not leave it up to the Saudis only to provide religious schools.
Read Three Cups of Tea- a paperback.

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» Will wants out of Iraq too Posted by: citizenjoe

Comments are closed-

"Divide & Conquer"-Going after the Far Left and Libertarian Voters
Posted by: Purple Girl on Oct 3, 2009 4:48 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Will the Left be Conned hook line and sinker, by this new found "logic"? It's possible considering the reverence by which you worte this piece.
Please Will is nothing more than a mouthpiece trying out a test balloon, in hopes of confusing and decieving the Anti War voters and the Isolationist Libertarians.
This is about gaining numbers for the '12 election. First Step in Re writing history in progress is to begin to flip flop your stance on the issue.After 8 yrs of Bush's ineptitude, it's suddenly time to 'cut and Run'?? Of Course because now It has become "Obama's War"- utter BS!
The Repugs are really trying to straddle this debate in such a way it is a Win Win for them. Obama sends more troops, he becomes the 'War Monger', eleviating W & Cheney of those Titled Crowns.If he doesn't he remains 'weak on defense'.
Sending more troops- makes insinuating it is 'Obama's War' more concrete.Their 'journalists' Can finally begin revealing the "new" corruption and missteps,which they had helped cover up over the last 8. And be the ones Screaming about the cost of 'Blood and Money'. Repugs the new torch bearers of the Anti War movement??? Kinda like suddenly being the champion of patient's rights."Citizens for Patient Rights"-My Ass! What part of that Logo has a Repug ever favored?? Repugs have 'Double Speak' down to a fine art.
But..
If he choose not to send troops or not as many as McCrystal asked for- He is 'proving' the Dems are weak on National security and foreign policy. If there is an uptick, or even the status quo of terrorist attacks, each will be attributed to Obama's decision Not to send more troops. If it reverts back to the same level of terrorist domination like the 'last time we left Afgahnistan', they will try to link those two events in the political historical minds of American's. "Charlie Wilsons War" will be the defining chronology of what transpired under the Reagan Admin.
The Repugs are not only hoping to Spin the facts about the last 8 yrs - but 30.And not just the Covert ops in Afganistan, but also those messy details like Iran contra,and Saddam's Anthrax attack on the Kurds. Not to mention the 2 Iraq 'wars'. If they can hand Obama and the Dem the responsiblity for the entire fiasco called the Neo Con era- they would be ecstatic.
George Will has not changed his spots- he's just working the otherside of the herd. The repugs are playing yet another two sided game where not only Dems lose, but so do the Rest of US. Will is a Red Herring,and anyone using half their brain cells knows it.

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» RE: continued... Posted by: Sister_Lauren

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That's An Easy Question!
Posted by: Carol Burns on Oct 3, 2009 6:46 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's analagous to the Reich-wing hyperbole about the TARP gift to the financial sector, which was Bush's baby, who keep trying to confuse it in the minds of the public with the stimulus (Obama's plan), which might actually offer some economic relief to regular citizens. After 8 years of war in Afghanistan, suddenly the Repubs would like to blame Obama for Bush's failures. They want to make it Obama's war, Obama's "reckless spending". We know better. That's why the "town halls" and the "march on Washington" are such a farce.

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Where Empires Go to Die
Posted by: JSquercia on Oct 3, 2009 7:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Afghanistan is the place where empires go to die .I believe that No one has ever conquered
Afghanistan .I read somewhere where even Alexander the Great decided it was not worth the cost and left .
There is talk about negotiating with the "good" Taliban which may be a face saving way out ,

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A stolen election in 2000,
Posted by: weathered on Oct 3, 2009 7:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
9/11, Irag/Afgn theft and torture, a profound redistribution/consolidation of wealth - All committed in broad daylight and choreographed by an MSM monster who's job it is to Lie.


Take back the media, see the MSM monster for exactly what it is;an accomplice to the crimes.

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» 911 TOOTH! 911 TOOTH! 911 TOOTH! Posted by: GuitarBill

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Trained terrorists?
Posted by: geekman on Oct 3, 2009 7:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do wish people would stop saying that the terrorists that attacked us got their training in Afghanistan. Think...what did they do? They smuggled sharp objects onboard an airliner and took over the cockpit and flew the planes into buildings. The most complicated element of that plan is flying the planes. Where did they get that training? HERE! You don't have to be in some special, secluded terrorist encampment to learn to smuggle box cutters. The measures the US has taken to screen passengers and to screen potential pilots are what has stopped any further such attacks.

How about the USS Cole? Again, you don't need a special terrorist country to learn how to make a bomb. McVeigh did it here.

My point is, if Afghanistan becomes a terrorist haven again, so what? People that hate the US or hate anyone else will find a way to manifest their hate. We should stop bombing civilians and putting our own troops at risk for some ideal of "ridding the world of terrorists" that is never going to happen. Better security at home, and more importantly, giving them fewer reasons to hate us, will work a lot better.

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» RE: Trained terrorists? Posted by: krock

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we're sending the wrong people
Posted by: sharonsylvie on Oct 3, 2009 8:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only people we should be sending to Afghanistan are teachers, engineers, agricultural experts, scientists, and doctors. Armed, of course, for protection. But sending uniformed soldiers is not helping raise this country out of poverty and ignorance. If Obama continues Bush's policies, we will have another Vietnam. But I sometimes wonder if we're always in some kind of war for (1) the benefit of the military/industrial complex, and (2) because there are no jobs for young Americans.

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» RE: there is a truism for all wars Posted by: Sister_Lauren

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THE AFGANISTAN 'MAKEOVER'
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 3, 2009 8:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Afgans have lived the way they do for almost a thousand years. Half a million troops and 5-10 years is not a committment we should make. How does that prevent an attack? We can't endear ourselves to these people when all we do is kill women and childen all in the name of trying to help. We destroyed parts of Iraq, Baghdad is a shambles. The Iraqis in the millions had to leave their homes and go to Syria and Jordan. Where will the Afgans go? And why should people be driven from their homes in the first place. War is not an 'end' in itself. There should be a well defined purpose that can be explained to the American people and the Afgans. So far (8 yrs.) the only thing we hear out of Afganistan is about how many people got killed. Obama and McChrystal are not in agreement. The General had to be reminded that he has a Constitiutional obligation to take his marching orders from his Commander in Chief. It's not the other way around. George Will is right, and Obama is wise not to rush into another mess that's already too old. Nobody listened to similar warnings about Iraq. Making the same mistake a second time is unthinkable. ANNA

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The purpose of the war was a pipe line and opium
Posted by: billwald on Oct 3, 2009 9:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our owners got their pipeline across Afghanistan to warm water and opium production has been restored. Time to get out.

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Whatever
Posted by: maxsmart on Oct 3, 2009 12:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He never said these things when Bush and Cheney were in so what does that tell you. He's trying to make it a democrat war but he still supports predators and their rather aweful unlawful impact on unknown targets. But whatever, we must get out and abandon predatory practices.

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Libertarians are not "isolationist"
Posted by: lightwing1 on Oct 3, 2009 2:03 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
they are "non-interventionist". There is a difference which I am not going to outline here. Time to do some research instead of making specious assumptions that aren't true.

And I found this statement to be particularly noxious:

"Their combined vote...was a self-consciously empty, if prideful, political exercise more akin to a nerd struggling feebly in a bully's headlock than to a real ideological coup. It posed no threat to the Republican paradigm."

What - a Republican can't vote based on principle? How sad that the author doesn't recognize the courage that it takes to vote against one's own party and laud that instead of dismissing these votes as "prideful" and "feeble". These representatives pay a price for their non-alignment stance.

The author's attempt to paint all republicans as "neo-con war hawks" is pathetic and erroneous. Of course the majority are, but that doesn't negate the fact that some took a stand against the Afghan war. Those who did, should be celebrated, not scoffed at.

Pathetic.

I am proud that Libertarians are non-interventionist and marched in the infamous February 2003 Anti-War march in SF. So, should I not have added my body and my protest to that anti-war march because I am a Libertarian and therefore insignificant, statistically?

Maybe I'll just stay home next time I align with the Dems on any issue - say eradicating the Drug War or Civil Rights. I mean, you lads and ladies are so righteous that you don't need political allies, do you?

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Remember the names
Posted by: willymack on Oct 3, 2009 2:37 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Commies used to call us?
Imperialistic war mongers. Greedy Capitalists.Running dogs, etc.
Those names don't sound so silly, now, do they?

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another red herring AlterNOT yarn for FASCIST USA
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Oct 3, 2009 4:35 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can always tell when an MSM political writer is vastly impressed with himself. Lots of wordy, empty and blatant insinuations, metaphors, retread quotes, etc, from corporate media that echo the usual Fascist Washington-MSM freak show party line.

And what is the Fascist Party line?

That America is still a somewhat dysfunctional democracy under “capitalism” governed by the “left” “right” and “center” of a system that represents the people.

Hint: that party line does not describe Fascism .

First of all the recently labeled so-called NeoCons (virtually all rabid Wall Street Zionists) are in charge of runway stooge Obama as they were village idiot GW Bush. There are virtually no real “conservatives” at Washington as is proven out by every imperial war vote under every puppet president in memory. And of course there are few real “progressives” - whatever that means - as can be seen by constant democratic 9/11 “war on terror” support that is backed by 1000 lies and counting since the 9/11 coverup . (according to the Center for Public Integrity).

So what does that leave us with?

A decoy farce.

The great American fraud ruled and owned by Organized Corporate Crime or in a word – FASCISM .

Writers like Duncan are tossed in to stir the pot and tell us we are a land divided into phony “left” vs “right” camps when there is no such division let alone a bogus “center” at the top of the Fascist Washington-MSM circus.

In point of fact, one of the only real stories of any worth AlterNOT should be covering is the latest break in the continuing Sibel Edmonds story: the 9/11 coverup whisteblower that both the phony “left” “right” to “center” at the Washington-MSM Fascist carny show simply can’t face. And why? Facing Sibel Edmonds charges would bring down the entire government with its whore-monger media as the sordid treason and betrayal it is.

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» Naomi Wolf? Really? No kidding? Posted by: GuitarBill
» Gee Pointy, what's your point? Posted by: GuitarBill
» Don't take my word for it Posted by: GuitarBill

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It would be correct move
Posted by: peter vojta on Oct 4, 2009 6:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
US should stop export " wars, military bases and terror", nobody is interested in US style of fashist democracy and their debilitating educational system.
Moment they elect somebody like Ron Paul, they will win back the respect they lost.....

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It is just another political pundit playing with the public's feelings.
Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Oct 4, 2009 7:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
George Will, while he might appear to play nice, cannot be taken seriously. He is a well established neoconservative and suddenly saying that we should withdraw from Afghanistan is suspect at best. If Will really means it, he will have to be consistent over time about it in order to prove that he really has changed his mind. For now, he is probably exploiting the Democrats' weaknesses and pretending to fill that anti-war anti-occupation void. I would like to believe him on this one but I'm keeping my fingers crossed until he shows over time that he really means what he says on Afghanistan.

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Is an increase in US troop levels in Afghanistan bad policy?
Posted by: Garvagh on Oct 4, 2009 12:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thoughtful piece. If the pollsters asked the Americans: "Do you support an increase in US troop levels in Afghanistan, at huge cost, when this likely will only make the security situation worse?", how many would say they want more US troops thrown into the fray?

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Will wants out of Iraq too
Posted by: citizenjoe on Oct 4, 2009 12:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On Sept 4 in the WaPo, Will called for Iraq withdrawal too.

Of course, Will is as much a national supremacist as the rest of the so called "conservative" cabal: William (dark glass) Kristol, Robert (wingless Vulcan) Kagan, Sleeza Rice, etc. So why does he want the Empire to retreat (always a dangerous move for Empires as it suggests weakness and less than omnipotence)? My guess is he has two reasons: 1) he sees that the war has been lost already (no establishment of democracy or even stability and order of a dictatorial variety; besides, it has become far too expensive, demoralizing, and most of all the Iraqi referendum will be a debilitating humiliation as bad as the American high tail out of Vietnam; 2) the Republicans will get a shot in the arm, a chance for revival, if Obama, already seen as confused and weak, leaves the battle that strongman Bush began. -- Joe

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Will wants out of Iraq too
Posted by: citizenjoe on Oct 4, 2009 12:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On Sept 4 in the WaPo, Will called for Iraq withdrawal too.

Of course, Will is as much a national supremacist as the rest of the so called "conservative" cabal: William (dark glass) Kristol, Robert (wingless Vulcan) Kagan, Sleeza Rice, etc. So why does he want the Empire to retreat (always a dangerous move for Empires as it suggests weakness and less than omnipotence)? My guess is he has two reasons: 1) he sees that the war has been lost already (no establishment of democracy or even stability and order of a dictatorial variety; besides, it has become far too expensive, demoralizing, and most of all the Iraqi referendum will be a debilitating humiliation as bad as the American high tail out of Vietnam; 2) the Republicans will get a shot in the arm, a chance for revival, if Obama, already seen as confused and weak, leaves the battle that strongman Bush began. -- Joe

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WAR!
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Oct 5, 2009 8:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You know, coming from someone other than George Will - I might actually take it seriously! I was never for the war in Afghanistan, but I do recall Will and most of the right wingnuts vociferously advancing their own war-like stances for all out invasion!

And for those that continue to call this Obama's war - how dare you forget that it was BushCo. that not only invaded Afghanistan, but trumped up the "evidence" to divert into Iraq (weapons of mass deception, anyone)! 8 years, hundreds of thousands of lives lost, and for what? Osama who, al-Qaeda who - look this was all about EMPIRE & AVARICE period! This was about a bunch of chicken-shit people that didn't serve in VietNam because they all had other things to do - and yet these people had NO problem sending other peoples children to die!

This is not now nor was it ever about democracy! Hell, there isn't democracy in America! This was about EMPIRE! And the best that can happen is that the US pull out and allow the Afghani's to try and rebuild their own nation! As a matter of fact, pull most of the US troops from Europe, and the M.E.! And never again should this nation allow itself to be dragged into someone else's wars of CHOICE!!

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» Calm down, love. Posted by: LightningJoe

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Where Empires Go to Die? Not this time.
Posted by: LightningJoe on Oct 6, 2009 7:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sure, if we wanted the country for ourselves, acting like an empire, then we would ultimately ourselves decide that the place "can't be conquered" due to its forbidding terrain and (by far not the least) all of the natives who don't want to be conquered.

But we are not there for possession, but to shore up and vitalize the country in its own right -- because a vital Afghanistan is a bulwark against Muslim extremism. It is also smack next to Pakistan -- over a famously porous border. Pakistan is a state with very pressing terrorist problems of its own, that also happens to have a dozen (or so?) nukes for the spoils of whoever takes the country over.

Can you say "National Security Interest," children? What will be the new Republican talking point, when a nuke goes off in a shipping container, and takes out half of New Jersey? Do you think they'll say "Well, this is our own fault, for pushing Obama to get out of Afghanistan." ???

Hell no! If it ever got that far, the story would change again, and it would be Obama's fault the whole way. Don't get sucked into the Reich's strategy.

We are there not to conquer, but to bolster Afghanistan against the Wild Ones, and Afghanistan's government knows this very well. So does Pakistan, who are working out action agreements with us even now. You can hold your head high, with a real statesman in the Oval Office for a change. All we need is patience, because Obama's heart is in the right place.

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Blackpool Accommodation
Posted by: Blackpool Hotels on Oct 31, 2009 5:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have just read this story and I recently stayed at a Blackpool hotel the Norbreck Castle Hotel and enjoyed my hotel stay in Blackpool. Norbreck Castle is part of Britannia Hotels which has many popular hotel accommodation such as the Britannia Hotel Manchester.

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