COMMENTS: 32
Western Jihad: Yes, We Have Suicide Bombers, Too, We Just Call Them 'Heroes'
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The actor Will Smith is no one's image of a suicide bomber. With his boyish face, he has often played comic roles. Even as the last man on earth in I Am Legend, he retains a wise-cracking, ironic demeanor. And yet, surrounded by a horde of hyperactive vampires at the end of that film, Smith clasps a live grenade to his chest and throws himself at the enemy in a final burst of heroic sacrifice.
Wait a second: surely that wasn't a suicide bombing. Will Smith wasn't reciting suras from the Koran. He wasn't sporting one of those rising sun headbands that the Japanese kamikaze wore for their suicide missions. He wasn't playing a religious fanatic or a political extremist. Will Smith was the hero of the film. So how could he be a suicide bomber? After all, he's one of us, isn't he?
As it happens, we have our suicide bombers too. "We" are the powerful, developed countries, the ones with an overriding concern for individual liberties and individual lives. "We" form a moral archipelago that encompasses the United States, Europe, Israel, present-day Japan, and occasionally Russia. Whether in real war stories or inspiring vignettes served up in fiction and movies, our lore is full of heroes who sacrifice themselves for motherland, democracy, or simply their band of brothers. Admittedly, these men weren't expecting 72 virgins in paradise and they didn't make film records of their last moments, but our suicidal heroes generally have received just as much praise and recognition as "their" martyrs.
The scholarly work on suicide bombers is large and growing. Most of these studies focus on why those other people do such terrible things, sometimes against their own compatriots but mainly against us. According to the popular view, Shiite or Tamil or Chechen suicide martyrs have a fundamentally different attitude toward life and death.
If, however, we have our own rich tradition of suicide bombers -- and our own unfortunate tendency to kill civilians in our military campaigns -- how different can these attitudes really be?
Western Jihad
In America's first war against Islam, we were the ones who introduced the use of suicide bombers. Indeed, the American seamen who perished in the incident were among the U.S. military's first missing in action.
It was September 4, 1804. The United States was at war with the Barbary pirates along the North African coast. The U.S. Navy was desperate to penetrate the enemy defenses. Commodore Edward Preble, who headed up the Third Mediterranean Squadron, chose an unusual stratagem: sending a booby-trapped U.S.S. Intrepid into the bay at Tripoli, one of the Barbary states of the Ottoman empire, to blow up as many of the enemy's ships as possible. U.S. sailors packed 10,000 pounds of gunpowder into the boat along with 150 shells.
When Lieutenant Richard Sommers, who commanded the vessel, addressed his crew on the eve of the mission, a midshipman recorded his words:
"'No man need accompany him, who had not come to the resolution to blow himself up, rather than be captured; and that such was fully his own determination!' Three cheers was the only reply. The gallant crew rose, as a single man, with the resolution yielding up their lives, sooner than surrender to their enemies: while each stepped forth, and begged as a favor, that he might be permitted to apply the match!"
The crew of the boat then guided the Intrepid into the bay at night. So as not to be captured and lose so much valuable gunpowder to the enemy, they chose to blow themselves up with the boat. The explosion didn't do much damage -- at most, one Tripolitan ship went down -- but the crew was killed just as surely as the two men who plowed a ship piled high with explosives into the U.S.S. Cole in the Gulf of Aden nearly 200 years later.
Despite the failure of the mission, Preble received much praise for his strategies. "A few brave men have been sacrificed, but they could not have fallen in a better cause," opined a British navy commander. The Pope went further: "The American commander, with a small force and in a short space of time, has done more for the cause of Christianity than the most powerful nations of Christiandom have done for ages!"
Preble chose his tactic because his American forces were outgunned. It was a Hail Mary attempt to level the playing field. The bravery of his men and the reaction of his supporters could be easily transposed to the present day, when "fanatics" fighting against similar odds beg to sacrifice themselves for the cause of Islam and garner the praise of at least some of their religious leaders.
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Posted by: notabilia on Aug 7, 2009 2:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Alternet is feisty and pithy, but takes far, far too long to load on my computer, especially in the ridiculously designed comments section.
2. The conclusion from all the posts: our supersystem is virtually unchangeable and functionally absurd.
3. Our brand of militarism is shameful and horrific, yet we have no ability to stop its gargantuan reach.
4. Hey, thanks!
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» RE: Alternet loads fine here.
Posted by: fearn
» RE: Alternet loads fine here.
Posted by: notabilia
» RE: Alternet loads fine here.
Posted by: gathaiga
Comments are closed-
Posted by: HeroesAll on Aug 7, 2009 3:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not just soldiers: read (Lt Col) Dave Grossman's book "On Killing" for a frightening look at our culture. In short, our cultural artefacts (movies, computer games, etc) have the effect of desensitising viewers/users to killing - it's the same tactic that the armed forces have used in training their soldiers, as a response to the fact that most soldiers, confronted by a supposed enemy, didn't fire in World War I.
Is there a cost to this societal desensitisation? Undoubtedly. But given that we (the royal 'we', for which substitute your country) have absolutely no problem killing civilians, provided they're not 'our' civilians, I doubt that either issue will be addressed any time soon.
There's also the fact that body counts in modern wars tend to lean about 90%/10% towards civilians - when you bomb from the air, there's no way you won't hit civilians, particularly if you're bombing a city. Which is one factor in the hatred much of the world holds for the US these days.
Another factor is that the US is so damned busy in other peoples' countries - read "Killing Hope" by William Blum for a terse listing of all the violence the US has exported since World War II. Particularly when the US spends more than the rest of the world combined on weaponry and 'defense', then turns around and complains on the rare occasions when somebody lobs it at them.
The final indignity is the absolute refusal of US government figures, and indeed most citizens, to admit that one kind of violence is very like another, at least from the perspective of the victims. Cheney may believe that 9/11 changed everything, but that's only because it was so unusual for the bully country to suffer an attack, not because of the distinctive heinousness of the attack itself.
They (the likes of Bolton, Cheney, et al) keep saying things like "you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs". To which much of the world would reply "you can't keep making war without making enemies".
Apologies for the strident tone, but this is a topic that cuts close to the bone.
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» RE: Not too strident....
Posted by: fearn
» Actually, "We" do kill our own citizens
Posted by: ObamaISAmerica
» RE: Actually, "We" do kill our own citizens
Posted by: gathaiga
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Moonray on Aug 7, 2009 6:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. There are almost always hidden or secret reasons for a war not shared with the public, who are tricked into participating with scare tactics and appeals to patriotism. Our current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are just the latest examples.
2. Most wars are to gain land or resources, or to inflict pain on old enemies. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are secretly about resources and the age-old conflict between Christianity and Islam. In fact, evidence is mounting that the U.S. role is motivated in part by Christian fanaticism, our Crusaders against their jihadists. Both sides are nuts.
3. One of the first things I was taught in Army basic training was that the "enemy" and associated civilians were to be regarded as sub-human. We were taught to refer to them as gooks, dinks or zips. Nowadays the terminology no doubt has changed to be more politically correct, but it's obvious that "kill anyone who gets in the way" still is the message.
4. American culture increasingly glorifies violence and militarism. This is mainly for commercial reasons because it's an easy way to gain popular approval. The result is that many young Americans now seem to think that the U.S. has an inherent right to rule the world. They are in for a rude awakening.
5. All this is likely to end badly, probably with nuclear terrorism. The U.S. and its European allies seem content to try to dominate the globe rather than building the infrastructure needed to reduce global conflict.
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» As a fellow veteran I concur wholeheartedly! nm
Posted by: Timba
» RE: A handful of fanatics herd followers to war
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Aug 7, 2009 7:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans continue to deceive themselves, the lies about the Islamofacists - we have Christofacists in this country - they are the people killing abortion providers, they are the crazies shooting up the gyms, they are the wackos stirring up the tea-party non-sense, they are the idiots that are screaming against the health-care reform desperately needed in this country!
The bottom line is fear, every action listed above is borne of fear, fear of not profiteering off of the misery of others, fear of change, fear of being alone, FEAR!! I don't know what to tell people to change their fear, I do realize that you must face your fear in order to overcome it, and when you can stare at the face of the monster it isn't always as scary as you think.
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» RE: "our heroes"......
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: KeepsonTickn on Aug 7, 2009 8:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Cole bombing, on the other hand, was an unambiguous act of war against a military target. I certainly wish it had never happened, but the men who gave their lives in that attack were heroes to their cause as much as any U.S. Marine who died in combat.
I believe we should make a distinction between attacks on military targets and bombings directed against civilians. Trying to paint all suicide bombers with the same brush attempts to shame them all, but is as likely to justify them all.
To get back to "collateral damage", this is one of the many reasons why the United States should never have gone into Iraq (besides draining our national wealth and the fact that our administration knew there was no military justification.)
Pentagon statisticians can predict the number of civilians who will be killed or maimed or lose loved ones or their homes or their livelihood or die of starvation or disease as "collateral damage." All they can't predict is exactly who and when.
So I have a hard time making a distinction between a nation that takes an overwhelming army into a country that poses no military threat and knowingly causes "collateral damage" to a predictable percentage of the innocents in the population, and suicide bombers who fly an airline with a predictable number of innocent civilians into a military target. I see no possible honor to the perpetrator in either. But I am implicated in one, and that bothers me a lot.
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» Well said, I too am bothered and somewhat stumped as
Posted by: Timba
» RE: Well said, I too am bothered and somewhat stumped as
Posted by: Reverse Engineer
» How does blowing up women and kids count as misprision?
Posted by: begruntleed
» Iraq isn't the issue.
Posted by: begruntleed
» You are absolutely right. But we are victims as well.
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Purple Girl on Aug 7, 2009 9:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: weathered on Aug 7, 2009 11:07 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lieberman took a piss all over conflict of interest, he's not a public servant he's a broker/agent all dressed up like a US Senator.
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Posted by: frank69 on Aug 7, 2009 2:19 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Read.....
Posted by: fearn
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Posted by: EinMD on Aug 7, 2009 4:57 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He wasn't killing innocent people. He was -saving- innocent people from being torn to shreds.
If someone's in a tank full of sharks that caught the scent of blood it doesn't make me a terrorist or suicide bomber or whatever to hold off those sharks so someone else can escape to the beach.
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Posted by: Michael Turton on Aug 7, 2009 9:03 PM
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Posted by: talkville on Aug 8, 2009 12:28 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We Baby Boomers, rich, middle and destitute leave all our children, rich, middle and destitute, with an immense challenge, one that must be overcome if the word "civilization" is to mean anything at all. I do not mean only here in the USA -- I mean we Baby Boomers of the so-called "West", all of us.
The Political Structure and the Economic Structure of the planet cannot be matched, reconciled made to be so, to think so lands one in non-sense and sheer absurdities. The balancing of these structures must be accomplished by overcoming them -- both. Or we must accept the reality of endless wars, big and small, endless conflicts big and small, endless and needless deaths, maimings, destructions and dislocations of what amounts to millions of people. Constantly, continuously. Talibans, jihads, holy-wars, nation-building wars, economic wars, political wars. Wanting Peace does not make Peace.
Politics and economics are wholly contained within our social relations. They don't exist "outside of us", somewhere floating up there in the world with gods, demons and all kinds of shibboleths. Economic and political activity is social activity.
Ah, and all of us Baby Boomers, as we learned from our fathers and grandfathers before us have learned the obsessive, single-minded, total fixation on economics and economic activity. All else in our society, all else, must be placed beneath and made dependent upon that single aspect of our lives. The obsession has, truly reached the intensity of actual madness. These conditions and all their related problems, issues, challenges, etc. we ALL leave to our children. We, "The West".
What a legacy. All we have is any number of excuses, circomlocutions, evasions, denials, pretexts, justifications, a literally endless series of what amounts to an actual denial of our own RESPONSIBILITY in this lamentable condition we leave our planet to ALL our children.
But don't mind me. I've always been described as having "such a negative attitude!".
Negative. For reasons well thought about my entire life. I see nothing today to dissuade me from such an attitude. What a world we leave our kids!
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Posted by: IncisiveToo on Aug 8, 2009 8:42 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Right now, America is the World Champion killer of unarmed civilians, starting with the second world war, at over 20 million killed, we are doing better than all the others combined.
Do not forget we installed Saddam Hussein as a dictator, and created the Taliban; financed Pol Pot and looked the other way.
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Posted by: troubleinmind254 on Aug 9, 2009 8:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't know if its really poverty, alienation with the modern social order, sprinkled with alienation. Whatever. I can picture a stratified America, seething with ideological polarization, similar to the pro slavery reaction in the time leading up to the American Civil War; the reason I sense things going this way, is that nobody is really challening the haters at the "Town Hells", I don't think anybody is calling out with equal vitriol, the Becks and Limbaughs. We are at a Munich/Dred Scott moment, were we nip it in the bud or pay dearly and bury the dead later.
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Posted by: itouch backup on Aug 12, 2009 8:16 PM
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Posted by: joebanana on Aug 15, 2009 1:25 PM
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Posted by: boay on Aug 24, 2009 6:45 PM
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Posted by: mjx729 on Aug 28, 2009 8:04 PM
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Posted by: notabilia on Aug 7, 2009 2:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Alternet is feisty and pithy, but takes far, far too long to load on my computer, especially in the ridiculously designed comments section.
2. The conclusion from all the posts: our supersystem is virtually unchangeable and functionally absurd.
3. Our brand of militarism is shameful and horrific, yet we have no ability to stop its gargantuan reach.
4. Hey, thanks!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Alternet loads fine here.
Posted by: fearn
» RE: Alternet loads fine here.
Posted by: notabilia
» RE: Alternet loads fine here.
Posted by: gathaiga
Comments are closed-
Posted by: HeroesAll on Aug 7, 2009 3:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not just soldiers: read (Lt Col) Dave Grossman's book "On Killing" for a frightening look at our culture. In short, our cultural artefacts (movies, computer games, etc) have the effect of desensitising viewers/users to killing - it's the same tactic that the armed forces have used in training their soldiers, as a response to the fact that most soldiers, confronted by a supposed enemy, didn't fire in World War I.
Is there a cost to this societal desensitisation? Undoubtedly. But given that we (the royal 'we', for which substitute your country) have absolutely no problem killing civilians, provided they're not 'our' civilians, I doubt that either issue will be addressed any time soon.
There's also the fact that body counts in modern wars tend to lean about 90%/10% towards civilians - when you bomb from the air, there's no way you won't hit civilians, particularly if you're bombing a city. Which is one factor in the hatred much of the world holds for the US these days.
Another factor is that the US is so damned busy in other peoples' countries - read "Killing Hope" by William Blum for a terse listing of all the violence the US has exported since World War II. Particularly when the US spends more than the rest of the world combined on weaponry and 'defense', then turns around and complains on the rare occasions when somebody lobs it at them.
The final indignity is the absolute refusal of US government figures, and indeed most citizens, to admit that one kind of violence is very like another, at least from the perspective of the victims. Cheney may believe that 9/11 changed everything, but that's only because it was so unusual for the bully country to suffer an attack, not because of the distinctive heinousness of the attack itself.
They (the likes of Bolton, Cheney, et al) keep saying things like "you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs". To which much of the world would reply "you can't keep making war without making enemies".
Apologies for the strident tone, but this is a topic that cuts close to the bone.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Not too strident....
Posted by: fearn
» Actually, "We" do kill our own citizens
Posted by: ObamaISAmerica
» RE: Actually, "We" do kill our own citizens
Posted by: gathaiga
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Moonray on Aug 7, 2009 6:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. There are almost always hidden or secret reasons for a war not shared with the public, who are tricked into participating with scare tactics and appeals to patriotism. Our current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are just the latest examples.
2. Most wars are to gain land or resources, or to inflict pain on old enemies. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are secretly about resources and the age-old conflict between Christianity and Islam. In fact, evidence is mounting that the U.S. role is motivated in part by Christian fanaticism, our Crusaders against their jihadists. Both sides are nuts.
3. One of the first things I was taught in Army basic training was that the "enemy" and associated civilians were to be regarded as sub-human. We were taught to refer to them as gooks, dinks or zips. Nowadays the terminology no doubt has changed to be more politically correct, but it's obvious that "kill anyone who gets in the way" still is the message.
4. American culture increasingly glorifies violence and militarism. This is mainly for commercial reasons because it's an easy way to gain popular approval. The result is that many young Americans now seem to think that the U.S. has an inherent right to rule the world. They are in for a rude awakening.
5. All this is likely to end badly, probably with nuclear terrorism. The U.S. and its European allies seem content to try to dominate the globe rather than building the infrastructure needed to reduce global conflict.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» As a fellow veteran I concur wholeheartedly! nm
Posted by: Timba
» RE: A handful of fanatics herd followers to war
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Aug 7, 2009 7:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans continue to deceive themselves, the lies about the Islamofacists - we have Christofacists in this country - they are the people killing abortion providers, they are the crazies shooting up the gyms, they are the wackos stirring up the tea-party non-sense, they are the idiots that are screaming against the health-care reform desperately needed in this country!
The bottom line is fear, every action listed above is borne of fear, fear of not profiteering off of the misery of others, fear of change, fear of being alone, FEAR!! I don't know what to tell people to change their fear, I do realize that you must face your fear in order to overcome it, and when you can stare at the face of the monster it isn't always as scary as you think.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: "our heroes"......
Posted by: talkville
Comments are closed-
Posted by: KeepsonTickn on Aug 7, 2009 8:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Cole bombing, on the other hand, was an unambiguous act of war against a military target. I certainly wish it had never happened, but the men who gave their lives in that attack were heroes to their cause as much as any U.S. Marine who died in combat.
I believe we should make a distinction between attacks on military targets and bombings directed against civilians. Trying to paint all suicide bombers with the same brush attempts to shame them all, but is as likely to justify them all.
To get back to "collateral damage", this is one of the many reasons why the United States should never have gone into Iraq (besides draining our national wealth and the fact that our administration knew there was no military justification.)
Pentagon statisticians can predict the number of civilians who will be killed or maimed or lose loved ones or their homes or their livelihood or die of starvation or disease as "collateral damage." All they can't predict is exactly who and when.
So I have a hard time making a distinction between a nation that takes an overwhelming army into a country that poses no military threat and knowingly causes "collateral damage" to a predictable percentage of the innocents in the population, and suicide bombers who fly an airline with a predictable number of innocent civilians into a military target. I see no possible honor to the perpetrator in either. But I am implicated in one, and that bothers me a lot.
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» Well said, I too am bothered and somewhat stumped as
Posted by: Timba
» RE: Well said, I too am bothered and somewhat stumped as
Posted by: Reverse Engineer
» How does blowing up women and kids count as misprision?
Posted by: begruntleed
» Iraq isn't the issue.
Posted by: begruntleed
» You are absolutely right. But we are victims as well.
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Purple Girl on Aug 7, 2009 9:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: weathered on Aug 7, 2009 11:07 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lieberman took a piss all over conflict of interest, he's not a public servant he's a broker/agent all dressed up like a US Senator.
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Posted by: frank69 on Aug 7, 2009 2:19 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Read.....
Posted by: fearn
Comments are closed-
Posted by: EinMD on Aug 7, 2009 4:57 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He wasn't killing innocent people. He was -saving- innocent people from being torn to shreds.
If someone's in a tank full of sharks that caught the scent of blood it doesn't make me a terrorist or suicide bomber or whatever to hold off those sharks so someone else can escape to the beach.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: Michael Turton on Aug 7, 2009 9:03 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: talkville on Aug 8, 2009 12:28 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We Baby Boomers, rich, middle and destitute leave all our children, rich, middle and destitute, with an immense challenge, one that must be overcome if the word "civilization" is to mean anything at all. I do not mean only here in the USA -- I mean we Baby Boomers of the so-called "West", all of us.
The Political Structure and the Economic Structure of the planet cannot be matched, reconciled made to be so, to think so lands one in non-sense and sheer absurdities. The balancing of these structures must be accomplished by overcoming them -- both. Or we must accept the reality of endless wars, big and small, endless conflicts big and small, endless and needless deaths, maimings, destructions and dislocations of what amounts to millions of people. Constantly, continuously. Talibans, jihads, holy-wars, nation-building wars, economic wars, political wars. Wanting Peace does not make Peace.
Politics and economics are wholly contained within our social relations. They don't exist "outside of us", somewhere floating up there in the world with gods, demons and all kinds of shibboleths. Economic and political activity is social activity.
Ah, and all of us Baby Boomers, as we learned from our fathers and grandfathers before us have learned the obsessive, single-minded, total fixation on economics and economic activity. All else in our society, all else, must be placed beneath and made dependent upon that single aspect of our lives. The obsession has, truly reached the intensity of actual madness. These conditions and all their related problems, issues, challenges, etc. we ALL leave to our children. We, "The West".
What a legacy. All we have is any number of excuses, circomlocutions, evasions, denials, pretexts, justifications, a literally endless series of what amounts to an actual denial of our own RESPONSIBILITY in this lamentable condition we leave our planet to ALL our children.
But don't mind me. I've always been described as having "such a negative attitude!".
Negative. For reasons well thought about my entire life. I see nothing today to dissuade me from such an attitude. What a world we leave our kids!
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: IncisiveToo on Aug 8, 2009 8:42 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Right now, America is the World Champion killer of unarmed civilians, starting with the second world war, at over 20 million killed, we are doing better than all the others combined.
Do not forget we installed Saddam Hussein as a dictator, and created the Taliban; financed Pol Pot and looked the other way.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: troubleinmind254 on Aug 9, 2009 8:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't know if its really poverty, alienation with the modern social order, sprinkled with alienation. Whatever. I can picture a stratified America, seething with ideological polarization, similar to the pro slavery reaction in the time leading up to the American Civil War; the reason I sense things going this way, is that nobody is really challening the haters at the "Town Hells", I don't think anybody is calling out with equal vitriol, the Becks and Limbaughs. We are at a Munich/Dred Scott moment, were we nip it in the bud or pay dearly and bury the dead later.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: itouch backup on Aug 12, 2009 8:16 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: joebanana on Aug 15, 2009 1:25 PM
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