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AlterNet / By Benjamin Dangl
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Honduran Leader's Populism Is What Provoked Military Violence

Contrary to most media accounts, President Manuel Zelaya wasn't seeking to abolish term limits.
July 1, 2009  |  
 
 
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Worldwide condemnation has followed the June 28 coup that unseated President Manuel Zelaya of Honduras.

Nationwide mobilizations and a general strike demanding that Zelaya be returned to power are growing in spite of increased military repression. One protester outside the government palace in Honduras told reporters that if Roberto Micheletti, the leader installed by the coup, wants to enter the palace, "he had better do so by air" because if he goes by land "we will stop him."

On early Sunday morning, approximately 100 soldiers entered the home of the left-leaning Zelaya, forcefully removed him and, while he was still in his pajamas, ushered him onto a plane to Costa Rica.

The tension that led to the coup involved a struggle for power between left and right political factions in the country. Besides the brutal challenges facing the Honduran people, this political crisis is a test for regional solidarity and Washington-Latin America relations.

Zelaya Takes a Left Turn

When Zelaya was elected president on November 27, 2005, in a close victory, he became president of one of the poorest nations in the region, with approximately 70 percent of its population of 7.5 million living below the poverty line. Although siding himself with the region’s left in recent years as a new member of the leftist trade bloc, Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas (ALBA), Zelaya did sign the Central American Free Trade Agreement in 2004.

However, Zelaya has been criticizing and taking on the sweatshop and corporate media industry in his country, and he increased the minimum wage by 60 percent. He said the increase, which angered the country’s elite but expanded his support among unions, would "force the business oligarchy to start paying what is fair." 

At a meeting of regional anti-drug officials, Zelaya spoke of an unconventional way to combat the drug trafficking and related violence that has been plaguing his country: "Instead of pursuing drug traffickers, societies should invest resources in educating drug addicts and curbing their demand."

After his election, Zelaya’s left-leaning policies began generating "resistance and anger among Liberal [party] leaders and lawmakers on the one hand, and attracting support from the opposition, civil society organizations and popular movements on the other," IPS reported.

The social organization Via Campesina stated, "The government of President Zelaya has been characterized by its defense of workers and campesinos, it is a defender of the Bolivarian Alternative of the Americas, and during his administration it has promoted actions that benefit Honduran campesinos."

As his popularity rose over the years among these sectors of society, the right wing and elite of Honduras worked to undermine the leader, eventually resulting in the recent coup.

Leading up to the Coup

The key question leading up to the coup was whether to hold a referendum on June 28 – as Zelaya wanted – on organizing an assembly to rewrite the country’s constitution.

One media analyst pointed out that while many major news outlets in the U.S., including the Miami Herald, Wall St. Journal and Washington Post said an impetus for the coup was specifically Zelaya’s plans for a vote to allow him to extend his term in office, the actual ballot question was to be: "Do you agree that, during the general elections of November 2009 there should be a fourth ballot to decide whether to hold a Constituent National Assembly that will approve a new political constitution?"

Nations across Latin America, including Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador, have recently rewritten their constitutions. In many aspects, the changes to these documents enshrined new rights for marginalized people and protected the nations' economies from the destabilizing effects of free trade and corporate looting.

Leading up to the coup, on June 10, members of teacher, student, indigenous and union groups marched to demand that Congress back the referendum on the constitution, chanting, "The people, aware, defend the Constituent [Assembly]." The Honduran Front of Teachers Organizations [FOM], with 48,000 members, also supported the referendum. FOM leader Eulogio Chávez asked teachers to organize the expected referendum this past Sunday in schools, according to the Weekly News Update on the Americas.


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Benjamin Dangl is the author of The Price of Fire: Resource Wars and Social Movements in Bolivia (AK Press, 2007). He is also the editor of Toward Freedom, a progressive perspective on world events, and Upside Down World, a news Web site uncovering activism and politics in Latin America. E-mail him at BenDangl@gmail.com.
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Brunowe, I'm calling you out
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Spot on Jul 1, 2009 12:25 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Leading up to the coup, on June 10, members of teacher, student, indigenous and union groups marched to demand that Congress back the referendum on the constitution, chanting, "The people, aware, defend the Constituent [Assembly]." The Honduran Front of Teachers Organizations [FOM], with 48,000 members, also supported the referendum. FOM leader Eulogio Chávez asked teachers to organize the expected referendum this past Sunday in schools, according to the Weekly News Update on the Americas."

There's the gargantuan support you denied all day Monday, when alternet ran this story.

Do you still stand by what you said?
"It isn't potential reform, it's an executive power grab -- the connotation of which are perfectly clear to Latin Americans"

Care to explain what those connotations would be?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» This article changes nothing Posted by: brunowe
» unbelievable Posted by: hooka
» Not delusional at all Posted by: brunowe
» this is going nowhere Posted by: hooka
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: brunowe
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: hooka
» Then there is... Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Then there is... Posted by: Spot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: cplot
» Executive term limits Posted by: brunowe
» RE: xecutive term limits Posted by: cplot
» RE: xecutive term limits Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Executive term limits Posted by: cplot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: cplot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: cplot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: cplot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: cplot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: cplot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: cplot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: cplot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: brunowe
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: brunowe
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: brunowe
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: hooka
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: brunowe
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: hooka
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: brunowe
» Can't speak for anyone else Posted by: NthnBrazil

Comments are closed-

A different local perspective
[Report this comment]
Posted by: NthnBrazil on Jul 1, 2009 3:15 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have no idea how prevalent this view is, but my family down there has characterized this differently.

Firstly they are saying that The President wanted the vote to be binding...the Supreme Court said no..then he still wanted to hold the vote, using the entire election apparatus of Honduras ($$$) to what is essentially a poll in an effort to move the peoples minds towards his agenda, via exposure and the power of suggestion.

Secondly, they don't view this as a coup but a military enforced institutional response to a President that was trying usurp the consitutional framework in an effort to push Honduras toward a Charismatic Dictatorship under the guise of Democracy. The Honduran congress voted to strip the President's Powers...and the supreme court ordered the arrest and the military carried it out. That's why there is not widespread unrest, but only localized protests.

Obviously this is anecdotal, but there are folks down there trying to get some "man-on-the-street" type interviews on-line. Will post links as soon as they are available.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» As in the old days Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: As in the old days Posted by: Spot
» If you knew Honduras Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: If you knew Honduras Posted by: Spot
» Nicaragua? Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Nicaragua? Posted by: Spot
» Northeast of Honduras Posted by: Spot

Comments are closed-

leopards don't change their spots
[Report this comment]
Posted by: grmartin on Jul 1, 2009 7:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For sure the US is secretly backing this coup. As ususal, it is desperate to turn the tide against real democracy in Latin America as a perceived threat to its economic/military interests in the region. Any Whitehouse condemnations are lip serivice only, the elected government will not receive any American help against the US sponsored Honduran military.

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Mr. Zelaya is lucky
[Report this comment]
Posted by: xvictor on Jul 1, 2009 7:43 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Remember what became of the late President Pinochet when their military mobilized to "restore democracy" in Chile. And the civil unrest during Pinochet's brief term were fomented by outside forces which had disrupted the national economy and had nothing to do with his domestic policies.

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Simple fact
[Report this comment]
Posted by: chlamor on Jul 1, 2009 7:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The major U.S. Facility in Honduras is Soto Cano Air Base.

The basic military job there is to maintain a runway capable of accepting U.S. Air Force C-5A heavy lift transports (which can even lift tanks by air). The airfield is a major military gateway into Central America. There are officially 550 U.S. military and 650 contractors there, organized as "Joint Task Force-Bravo". This includes "Security Forces", training units, helicopter units, and special ops as well as airmen.

It is a significant presence. Given the size of the force and the small size of the Honduran military, it is inconceivable that the U.S. military was unaware of the coup.

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» Not entirely Posted by: brunowe

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Coup, or legal balance of power?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Tracy112 on Jul 1, 2009 8:28 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a journalist and a Latina with much of my family in Honduras, I have to question this article along with NthnBrazil (who commented below), on behalf of those on the ground in Honduras who have another view. I’m not there myself, so I don’t know for sure what’s going on. What I do know is that the Liberal party (Zelaya’s party) is sadly divided right now, and it’s likely possible to put a leftist spin on both sides of the argument.

My family members in Honduras have a long history of being outspoken advocates for the Liberal party. My uncle and a cousin were killed during the last military coup for their political beliefs/activism, so we are not friends to military coups, by far. My mother grew up the poorest of the poor, so we also do not represent the Honduran elite or anyone who is all about forwarding corporate interests and sweatshops.

My family supported Zelaya, as they have always supported Liberal candidates who want to lift up all people in Honduras. But they have been incredibly disappointed in him--which they have conveyed even before the coup. They say he is not the “man of the people” that is portrayed in this article, and they are embarrassed by his advocacy for and alliance with Chavez and the Castro brothers. Like the Castro brothers, they say, Zelaya appears to be a man who wants power and may step on the Honduran people if he’s allowed to get it.

Admittedly, this is all hearsay I’m getting through telephone lines, but what my family members in Honduras are saying echoes what fellow Honduran NthnBrazil said a couple of comments ago: these events were the result of a power grab by Zelaya that was legally aborted by the balance of power in Honduras.

They say the Honduran military today is much more balanced politically than it was in the past, and this particular coup was a LEGAL action in Honduras because: A) Zelaya was trying to change the constitution so he could run for re-election—this is legal if you go down the right channels—which Zelaya wasn’t; B) Zelaya was moving ahead with a referendum on whether he could be re-elected, which was illegal, because the Honduran Congress had voted against giving him permission to change the constitution and do so; and C) the military acted on an order from the Honduran Supreme Court to legally remove him from office when he overstepped his legal role.

My family members say that the newly appointed interim president, who is the head of the Honduran Congress, is reportedly doing his best to serve Honduras. Though he could probably finagle himself a full term as president, he has repeatedly stated that the upcoming democratic presidential elections will go forward as planned.

The minimum wage hike and anti-sweatshop work attributed to Zelaya is in line with Liberal party values, to my understanding. I have to wonder how much of these gains are to Zelaya’s credit, and how much was due to collective action by the party.

Again, the Liberal party is divided right now, and I’m sure those who remember the last brutal military coup suspect the conservative National party is trying to thwart the democratic process in Honduras. I’m sure they feel that any Liberal president is better than a National party president. But my family have long been activists on behalf of Liberal ideals in Honduras. Some have put their very lives on the line for democracy and socio-economic equality—and they don’t trust Zelaya as far as the military can throw him.

I have too much faith in the hearts and ideals of my family in Honduras to be unbiased about this issue, and I could be wrong. That said, I think this article was well done, but I'd love to see this reporter talk to staunch Liberal supporters/activists who are glad Zelaya is gone, to get more perspective on the real state of affairs in Honduras.

Tracy Fernandez Rysavy

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» Full disclosure Posted by: NthnBrazil
» What are your sources? Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: What are your sources? Posted by: Tracy112
» RE: What are your sources? Posted by: Tracy112
» So what is the "right" process? Posted by: NthnBrazil
» Eye of the beholder Posted by: NthnBrazil
» What you also don't seem to know Posted by: NthnBrazil
» Context free analysis Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Context free analysis Posted by: cplot
» OK - I see the problem Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Context free analysis Posted by: cplot
» Nonsense Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Orwellian Nonsense Posted by: cplot
» The link has all the background Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: What are your sources? Posted by: Tracy112
» RE: What are your sources? Posted by: Tracy112
» RE: What are your sources? Posted by: Tracy112
» RE: What are your sources? Posted by: Tracy112
» Wevs Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Wevs Posted by: Spot
» RE: Wevs Posted by: cplot
» So your contention Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: So your contention Posted by: cplot
» I hate to break it to you Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Coup, or legal balance of power? Posted by: ThinkingOpponent

Comments are closed-

Historical facts inform present day reality
[Report this comment]
Posted by: gunboat diplomat on Jul 1, 2009 9:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't forget that Honduras as been a central client state of the U.S. for decades - and this is also the country that played the starring role in the Iran-Contra-Cocaine scandal, exposed by Gary Webb in a series of article in the San Jose Mercury News - he was targeted by the corporate medeia, sacked by a fearful editor, i.e. he had his career and life destroyed as a result, but the story had plenty of backup - try this:

After 1984, Congress made it illegal for the White House, the Pentagon, and the CIA to secretly supply arms for the contras. So the operation's organizers stepped up its recruitment of major drug smugglers to do this work for them. Congress allowed the administration to provide the contra army with only "humanitarian aid." According to the Kerry Subcommittee report, the U.S. State Department transferred over $800,000 of this "humanitarian aid" money to four Miami-based firms connected with major drug-smuggling rings:

* $317,425.17 went to Vortex, an air cargo company whose executive vice president was the target of three FBI drug investigations when the State Department handed over the money. According to the Guardian (March 20, 1988), Michael Palmer, owner of Vortex, claimed his operations smuggled $40 million in drugs into the United States between 1977 and 1985.
* $261,930 went to Frigoríficos de Puntereñas, a drug-smuggling and money-laundering operation that used shrimp boats in the Gulf of Mexico as its cover. One part of this operation, a company named Ocean Hunter, reportedly moved about $200,000 a month in cash to the contras.[1]
* $185,924.25 went to SETCO, an air cargo firm owned by multimillionaire Juan Ramón Matta Ballesteros, who ran the largest cocaine operations in Honduras. Newsweek (May 5, 1985) cited official estimates that Matta was responsible for perhaps one-third of the cocaine reaching the United States.
* And $41,120.90 went to DIACSA, which FBI affidavits describe as a center for cocaine trafficking and money laundering. DIACSA was owned by two veterans of the CIA's Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba. In 1988 a court case of Panama's General Noriega would reveal that DIACSA carried out drug flights as part of its contra support efforts.[4]

The fact here is not that the CIA was dealing cocaine, but rather that the CIA and other government agencies were more concerned with defeating 'communism' so they looked the other way while the Contras rounded up money - using cocaine and other drug deals to do so. The nexus of this activity on the Latin American end was Honduras.

This era of Latin American history was thought to be in the past, but a rewrite of the constitution to alter free trade pacts with the U.S. - you can see Hillary getting herself all wound up over that (recall, her chief campaign advisor, Mark Penn, was also the main person consulting in secret Colombian trade talks).

Everything does smack of covert U.S. approval for this coup, unfortunately, with the State Department being the most suspicious actor. It would be very interesting to have a transcript of the pre-coup discussions between the coup plotters and Washington.

Methinks they overplayed their hand. Good article, by the way. And for live video, see:

english.aljazeera.net

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We should be ashamed of ourselves
[Report this comment]
Posted by: willymack on Jul 1, 2009 10:37 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here in the "Land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave" we're witnessing a popular uprising and general strike against corporate repression and foreign (ours) meddling.
This is in tiny Honduras, whose people have so much more to lose with their actions than we would in this country.
Their courage should be an inspiration to us here, but, of course, won't. We're accustomed to licking the hand that beats us and worshiping thieving psychopaths.
Remember the 2000 "election"? Where was our legendary morality and courage of convictions then? Why didn't WE go on a nationwide strike and prevent the bush crime family from destroying our electoral process? Why, when it becomes ever more apparent that we'll be sold out yet again as regards health care, aren't we in the streets and threatening a national strike? Why, when it becomes ever more obvious that the heinous crimes of the past administration will be swept under the rug, aren't we up in arms with outrage? Why, when we're STILL in Iraq aren't we flooding the White House with letters of protest?
Something vital and precious has died within us, and is not likely to return. We should be ashamed of ourselves, but, of course, aren't.

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» RE: We should be ashamed of ourselves Posted by: Razional Thinker
» RE: We should be ashamed of ourselves Posted by: Razional Thinker

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Coup leaders deserve death
[Report this comment]
Posted by: truthteller on Jul 1, 2009 10:51 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pres. Zelaya needs to lead a coalition army of his political allies in Central and S. America to take back Honduras for the people. This so smacks of CIA-U. S. empire action, down to General Vasquez being a graduate of our School of the Americas (which needs to be permanently shut down). Gen. Vasquez, Roberto Micheletti, and any officer above the rank of NCO should be captured and summarily executed for participating in this coup. This is treason against the legitimate civilian government, pure and simple, and the penalty for treason is well known to all - DEATH!

This coup needs to be reversed swiftly and without mercy. We are not going to go back to the bad old days of the U. S. deciding who is and is not a legitimate leader of a country based on the interests of our corporations. I stand with the working poor of Honduras, and against the fascist corporate interests who perpetrated this heinous act.

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first Chiquita and now clothing companies in charge
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Posted by: ZeeBruce on Jul 1, 2009 11:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The people of Honduras have been subjugated to the greed of American businessmen for over a century, and as in Haiti and Indonesia, so many other countries, when the leaders move to force a living wage, the USA government intervenes and the military leaders, trained at the School of the Americas, take control. How outrageous for a democratically elected president to force American companies to pay an extra dollar a day in wages to their Honduran workers. When American business people and American politicians talk about family values they clearly mean their own families and to hell with anyone else, let them eat cake.

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This coup is too much like
[Report this comment]
Posted by: bettyn on Jul 1, 2009 11:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
all the others we have been involved in over the years in South and Central America NOT to have a CIA connection. Is it a precursor to the overthrowal of the Venezuelan government? Inquiring minds want to know.

Is the CIA operating on orders of the current White House or does it contain rogue elements that are still loyal to previous administrations, in particular the last one (the absolute worst in our history)? Again, inquiring minds want to know.

Time for a serious investigation and possible house-cleaning at McLean and other covert government agencies. This is long, long overdue.

Are these organizations run for protection of American citizens or for the profits of the guys in the Petroleum Club of Houston and United Fruit Company? WE WANT TRANSPARENCY NOW!

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» RE: This coup is too much like Posted by: luzmejor

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WeMadeAmistake
[Report this comment]
Posted by: aroleflin on Jul 1, 2009 12:15 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
HEADLINES JANUARY 20, 2009....President Bush has decided he doesn't want to leave office and wants a third term of office and intends to ignore the United States Constitution.....
Why doesn't the state run Obama media report the truth. Most Hondurans want their constitution respected an honored. This leftist communist cronie of dictator Chavez and Ortega has been sponsoring drug dealing, lying and trying to usurp the country's constitution....much like President Narcissist is doing in the USA. If you talk to most people who live in Hondorus, they will tell you they want the communist to step down as their own constitution mandates. Stop trying to tell lies like most communists like Obama employ. Obama lies now exceed over 175 since he took office...from lobbyists, to transparency, to 5 day public vetting. The biggest liar in U.S. history.

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» RE: WeMadeAmistake Posted by: Spot
» RE: WeMadeAmistake Posted by: luzmejor

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Just look at what Washington establishment think tanks have been saying:
[Report this comment]
Posted by: gunboat diplomat on Jul 1, 2009 3:07 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a nice blurb that explains a lot:

"Honduran Relationship with the United States
Despite this last minute history, Honduras has been a longtime supporter of U.S. international interests. As the U.S. Department of State website maintains, “Honduras is an ally of the United States and generally supports U.S. interests in international fora.” In 1985, Honduras backed the U.S. decision to oppose a Marxist Sandinista government in Nicaragua and a leftist insurgency in El Salvador. Honduras became one of the first nations to sign an International Criminal Court agreement with the U.S., and the U.S. has maintained a military presence at the Enrique Soto Cano Air base. In 2005, Honduras also became the first country in the Western Hemisphere to sign an agreement with the Multinational Challenge Corporation (MCC), in which this U.S. government organization allocated $215 million to help Honduras improve its transportation system and enhance its agricultural development.

Economically, Honduras is inextricably linked with the United States. Nearly two-thirds of the foreign investment in Honduras comes from this country, and the U.S. is also Honduras’ chief trading partner, specializing in the maquila industry (yarn and textiles). In 2004, Honduras signed the Central American Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA) with the U.S., eliminating tariffs and external barriers between the two countries while promoting regional integration. The multifaceted nature of U.S. influence in Honduras should have, but did not guarantee a strong relationship between the two nations."

This is about our interests in the region, or rather, the interests of bloated multinational corporations in the region - and their interests come first in Washington, while the interests of the ordinary people in the U.S. and Honduras come last.

Thank god the neoconservatives have been given the boot - now it's time to give the boot to the neoliberals as well - but please, don't trust Chavez, the Venezuelan oil princess, to look after Honduras interest's either.

FDR was probably the last U.S. president to vocally support the notion of national self-determination for all nations, and he had no fear that such nations would turn against the U.S., because it was so obvious that American-style democracy was far more attractive than Nazi fascism or Soviet communism, o or any other shade of authoritarian government.

Obama is no FDR - he's looking more and more like Truman or Johnson. If he keeps this kind of foreign policy in place, he might not even get a second term.

It's time to re-invigorate the anti-globalization movement - but let's be clear, that means opposing Chavez's effort to create his own 'sphere of influence' as well as those of the U.S. State Department. I mean, do you really think Chavez wants to lose the main source of his power, i.e. control of Venezuelan oil resources? I don't think so. He's just another oil princess, no different than the Saudis, the Iranians, and the international oil corporations. These people can't be trusted with jack.

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» But it was FDR... Posted by: davmills

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It is important to note that Obama refuses to officially designate this action as a "coup"
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Paul_C on Jul 1, 2009 3:33 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
choosing instead to play the smiley face puppet and pretend to be concerned.

This allows him to keep pouring military aid into the country, propping up the new dictator, while making nice with OAS leaders and pretending to be on the side of democracy.

peace,
Paul

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I propose a new marketing campaign: Obama is Bush
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Paul_C on Jul 1, 2009 3:37 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's take Obama up on his offer of transparency (which he has shown zero interest in allowing) by creating a fresh marketing campaign to help voters understand what Obama actually stands for, namely that:

Obama is Bush

peace,
Paul

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A purely legal analysis of the conflict
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Spot on Jul 1, 2009 9:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is available at counterpunch.org:

http://www.counterpunch.org/thorensen07012009.html

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What the???? An ADVERTISEMENT??? Alternet, get rid of this spam and the spammer!! n/m
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Paul_C on Jul 2, 2009 6:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
peace,
Paul

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» No problem, Paul. Posted by: Spot

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A wish for a different constitution
[Report this comment]
Posted by: cplot on Jul 2, 2009 11:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many of these constitutional arguments amount to a wish for a different constitution. Its apparent from the arguments advanced that you all would have established a different constitution: one that placed the judiciary in a privileged position overseeing the other branches. However this is not the constitution the US has and neither is it the constitution Honduras has.

While you might think your proposed constitution would be more balanced (somehow), you need to consider other factors. First of all the strong checks and balances the executive enjoys compared to the judiciary are partly due to the structural differences between the two branches too. The judiciary are appointed for life while the President is elected for 4 year terms. The Congress which tries impeachments is comprised of members elected every two years. There are so many other factors to consider. In short the reliance of the judiciary on the President for some enforcement of judicial rulings is offset by the short term of the President (even shorter terms of the legislators who might try the president in impeachments).

You might think there's all sorts of ways you would do it different. That's fine. It helps to stimulate the intellect to imagine all the ways a government might be constituted and makes us all better civic participants. However, you have to get away from the idea of reading the document how you want it to be rather than what it says. Also its important to appreciate all of the nuance that goes into the document in terms of balancing these co-equal branches of government (before you consider disrupting the equality of these branches).

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» Straw-man alert Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Straw-man alert Posted by: cplot
» Yes of course Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Yes of course Posted by: cplot

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sex
[Report this comment]
Posted by: sex on Jul 4, 2009 2:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

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OBAMA BACK THUG
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Posted by: reelman on Jul 5, 2009 12:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
HONDURAS: THUG ZELAYA IGNORES CONSTITUTION

The country’s new government has vowed to arrest Zelaya for 18 alleged criminal acts including treason and failing to implement more than 80 laws approved by Congress since taking office in 2006.

Large crowds of Zelaya’s critics have staged their own daily demonstrations to back Micheletti, the congressional president who was named by lawmakers to finish out the final six months of the Zelaya’s term.

Most of the ousted leader’s supporters come from the working and middle classes of this impoverished nation…..

The military ousted Zelaya with the backing of Honduras’ political establishment, including the Supreme Court, Congress and Zelaya’s own party. He was insisting on following through with a referendum on constitutional change that the Supreme Court ruled illegal.

But by sending soldiers to shoot up the presidential residence and fly Zelaya into exile, the Micheletti government has brought itself universal condemnations from the United Nations and OAS. No nation has recognized the new government; U.S. President Barack Obama has united with conservative Alvaro Uribe of Colombia and leftist Hugo Chavez of Venezuela in criticism.

CRAWFISH NOTE: When the constitution of a country is totally ignored…whose side has all the lefty thugs in the region plus our own lefty thug Obama? Yep, the side of a Chavez or Castro Junior is where democrat J. Carter Obama picks to land. Makes sense to me.

http://conservablogs.com/theconservativecrawfish

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WATCH WHO TAKES WHAT SIDE!
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Posted by: reelman on Jul 5, 2009 1:14 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'd like to know what IS the remedy for a Prez who won't follow the law. Seems when the other 2 branches unite to tell him to go (& he can't have a 3rd term), & he won't go - THAT IS THE PROPER USE OF THE MILITARY.

Seems like a little girl excuse, "Oh no, they have guns." (BTW when the military is corrupt, we have armed citizens to do the right thing, using the 2nd Amendment in its intended way - who knows what these countries have?)
And they need to use them to expel the illegal Prez.
This is why those countries south of the border get it wrong so much, even when they do the right thing, their neighbors, unused to how to resolve illegal conflicts between the branches of govt. & now facing a potential tyrant, don't comprehend.

BTW they are all in favor (lib-media/dems) of shooting-things-up force when ousting a right-wing dictator via some leftist (thug-in-waiting).

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Alternet Comments:

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Brunowe, I'm calling you out
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Posted by: Spot on Jul 1, 2009 12:25 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Leading up to the coup, on June 10, members of teacher, student, indigenous and union groups marched to demand that Congress back the referendum on the constitution, chanting, "The people, aware, defend the Constituent [Assembly]." The Honduran Front of Teachers Organizations [FOM], with 48,000 members, also supported the referendum. FOM leader Eulogio Chávez asked teachers to organize the expected referendum this past Sunday in schools, according to the Weekly News Update on the Americas."

There's the gargantuan support you denied all day Monday, when alternet ran this story.

Do you still stand by what you said?
"It isn't potential reform, it's an executive power grab -- the connotation of which are perfectly clear to Latin Americans"

Care to explain what those connotations would be?

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» This article changes nothing Posted by: brunowe
» unbelievable Posted by: hooka
» Not delusional at all Posted by: brunowe
» this is going nowhere Posted by: hooka
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: brunowe
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: hooka
» Then there is... Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Then there is... Posted by: Spot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: cplot
» Executive term limits Posted by: brunowe
» RE: xecutive term limits Posted by: cplot
» RE: xecutive term limits Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Executive term limits Posted by: cplot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: cplot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: cplot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: cplot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: cplot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: cplot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: cplot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: cplot
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: brunowe
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: brunowe
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: brunowe
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: hooka
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: brunowe
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: hooka
» RE: this is going nowhere Posted by: brunowe
» Can't speak for anyone else Posted by: NthnBrazil

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A different local perspective
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Posted by: NthnBrazil on Jul 1, 2009 3:15 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have no idea how prevalent this view is, but my family down there has characterized this differently.

Firstly they are saying that The President wanted the vote to be binding...the Supreme Court said no..then he still wanted to hold the vote, using the entire election apparatus of Honduras ($$$) to what is essentially a poll in an effort to move the peoples minds towards his agenda, via exposure and the power of suggestion.

Secondly, they don't view this as a coup but a military enforced institutional response to a President that was trying usurp the consitutional framework in an effort to push Honduras toward a Charismatic Dictatorship under the guise of Democracy. The Honduran congress voted to strip the President's Powers...and the supreme court ordered the arrest and the military carried it out. That's why there is not widespread unrest, but only localized protests.

Obviously this is anecdotal, but there are folks down there trying to get some "man-on-the-street" type interviews on-line. Will post links as soon as they are available.

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» As in the old days Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: As in the old days Posted by: Spot
» If you knew Honduras Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: If you knew Honduras Posted by: Spot
» Nicaragua? Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Nicaragua? Posted by: Spot
» Northeast of Honduras Posted by: Spot

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leopards don't change their spots
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Posted by: grmartin on Jul 1, 2009 7:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For sure the US is secretly backing this coup. As ususal, it is desperate to turn the tide against real democracy in Latin America as a perceived threat to its economic/military interests in the region. Any Whitehouse condemnations are lip serivice only, the elected government will not receive any American help against the US sponsored Honduran military.

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Mr. Zelaya is lucky
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Posted by: xvictor on Jul 1, 2009 7:43 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Remember what became of the late President Pinochet when their military mobilized to "restore democracy" in Chile. And the civil unrest during Pinochet's brief term were fomented by outside forces which had disrupted the national economy and had nothing to do with his domestic policies.

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Simple fact
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Posted by: chlamor on Jul 1, 2009 7:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The major U.S. Facility in Honduras is Soto Cano Air Base.

The basic military job there is to maintain a runway capable of accepting U.S. Air Force C-5A heavy lift transports (which can even lift tanks by air). The airfield is a major military gateway into Central America. There are officially 550 U.S. military and 650 contractors there, organized as "Joint Task Force-Bravo". This includes "Security Forces", training units, helicopter units, and special ops as well as airmen.

It is a significant presence. Given the size of the force and the small size of the Honduran military, it is inconceivable that the U.S. military was unaware of the coup.

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» Not entirely Posted by: brunowe

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Coup, or legal balance of power?
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Posted by: Tracy112 on Jul 1, 2009 8:28 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a journalist and a Latina with much of my family in Honduras, I have to question this article along with NthnBrazil (who commented below), on behalf of those on the ground in Honduras who have another view. I’m not there myself, so I don’t know for sure what’s going on. What I do know is that the Liberal party (Zelaya’s party) is sadly divided right now, and it’s likely possible to put a leftist spin on both sides of the argument.

My family members in Honduras have a long history of being outspoken advocates for the Liberal party. My uncle and a cousin were killed during the last military coup for their political beliefs/activism, so we are not friends to military coups, by far. My mother grew up the poorest of the poor, so we also do not represent the Honduran elite or anyone who is all about forwarding corporate interests and sweatshops.

My family supported Zelaya, as they have always supported Liberal candidates who want to lift up all people in Honduras. But they have been incredibly disappointed in him--which they have conveyed even before the coup. They say he is not the “man of the people” that is portrayed in this article, and they are embarrassed by his advocacy for and alliance with Chavez and the Castro brothers. Like the Castro brothers, they say, Zelaya appears to be a man who wants power and may step on the Honduran people if he’s allowed to get it.

Admittedly, this is all hearsay I’m getting through telephone lines, but what my family members in Honduras are saying echoes what fellow Honduran NthnBrazil said a couple of comments ago: these events were the result of a power grab by Zelaya that was legally aborted by the balance of power in Honduras.

They say the Honduran military today is much more balanced politically than it was in the past, and this particular coup was a LEGAL action in Honduras because: A) Zelaya was trying to change the constitution so he could run for re-election—this is legal if you go down the right channels—which Zelaya wasn’t; B) Zelaya was moving ahead with a referendum on whether he could be re-elected, which was illegal, because the Honduran Congress had voted against giving him permission to change the constitution and do so; and C) the military acted on an order from the Honduran Supreme Court to legally remove him from office when he overstepped his legal role.

My family members say that the newly appointed interim president, who is the head of the Honduran Congress, is reportedly doing his best to serve Honduras. Though he could probably finagle himself a full term as president, he has repeatedly stated that the upcoming democratic presidential elections will go forward as planned.

The minimum wage hike and anti-sweatshop work attributed to Zelaya is in line with Liberal party values, to my understanding. I have to wonder how much of these gains are to Zelaya’s credit, and how much was due to collective action by the party.

Again, the Liberal party is divided right now, and I’m sure those who remember the last brutal military coup suspect the conservative National party is trying to thwart the democratic process in Honduras. I’m sure they feel that any Liberal president is better than a National party president. But my family have long been activists on behalf of Liberal ideals in Honduras. Some have put their very lives on the line for democracy and socio-economic equality—and they don’t trust Zelaya as far as the military can throw him.

I have too much faith in the hearts and ideals of my family in Honduras to be unbiased about this issue, and I could be wrong. That said, I think this article was well done, but I'd love to see this reporter talk to staunch Liberal supporters/activists who are glad Zelaya is gone, to get more perspective on the real state of affairs in Honduras.

Tracy Fernandez Rysavy

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» Full disclosure Posted by: NthnBrazil
» What are your sources? Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: What are your sources? Posted by: Tracy112
» RE: What are your sources? Posted by: Tracy112
» So what is the "right" process? Posted by: NthnBrazil
» Eye of the beholder Posted by: NthnBrazil
» What you also don't seem to know Posted by: NthnBrazil
» Context free analysis Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Context free analysis Posted by: cplot
» OK - I see the problem Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Context free analysis Posted by: cplot
» Nonsense Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Orwellian Nonsense Posted by: cplot
» The link has all the background Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: What are your sources? Posted by: Tracy112
» RE: What are your sources? Posted by: Tracy112
» RE: What are your sources? Posted by: Tracy112
» RE: What are your sources? Posted by: Tracy112
» Wevs Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Wevs Posted by: Spot
» RE: Wevs Posted by: cplot
» So your contention Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: So your contention Posted by: cplot
» I hate to break it to you Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Coup, or legal balance of power? Posted by: ThinkingOpponent

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Historical facts inform present day reality
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Posted by: gunboat diplomat on Jul 1, 2009 9:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't forget that Honduras as been a central client state of the U.S. for decades - and this is also the country that played the starring role in the Iran-Contra-Cocaine scandal, exposed by Gary Webb in a series of article in the San Jose Mercury News - he was targeted by the corporate medeia, sacked by a fearful editor, i.e. he had his career and life destroyed as a result, but the story had plenty of backup - try this:

After 1984, Congress made it illegal for the White House, the Pentagon, and the CIA to secretly supply arms for the contras. So the operation's organizers stepped up its recruitment of major drug smugglers to do this work for them. Congress allowed the administration to provide the contra army with only "humanitarian aid." According to the Kerry Subcommittee report, the U.S. State Department transferred over $800,000 of this "humanitarian aid" money to four Miami-based firms connected with major drug-smuggling rings:

* $317,425.17 went to Vortex, an air cargo company whose executive vice president was the target of three FBI drug investigations when the State Department handed over the money. According to the Guardian (March 20, 1988), Michael Palmer, owner of Vortex, claimed his operations smuggled $40 million in drugs into the United States between 1977 and 1985.
* $261,930 went to Frigoríficos de Puntereñas, a drug-smuggling and money-laundering operation that used shrimp boats in the Gulf of Mexico as its cover. One part of this operation, a company named Ocean Hunter, reportedly moved about $200,000 a month in cash to the contras.[1]
* $185,924.25 went to SETCO, an air cargo firm owned by multimillionaire Juan Ramón Matta Ballesteros, who ran the largest cocaine operations in Honduras. Newsweek (May 5, 1985) cited official estimates that Matta was responsible for perhaps one-third of the cocaine reaching the United States.
* And $41,120.90 went to DIACSA, which FBI affidavits describe as a center for cocaine trafficking and money laundering. DIACSA was owned by two veterans of the CIA's Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba. In 1988 a court case of Panama's General Noriega would reveal that DIACSA carried out drug flights as part of its contra support efforts.[4]

The fact here is not that the CIA was dealing cocaine, but rather that the CIA and other government agencies were more concerned with defeating 'communism' so they looked the other way while the Contras rounded up money - using cocaine and other drug deals to do so. The nexus of this activity on the Latin American end was Honduras.

This era of Latin American history was thought to be in the past, but a rewrite of the constitution to alter free trade pacts with the U.S. - you can see Hillary getting herself all wound up over that (recall, her chief campaign advisor, Mark Penn, was also the main person consulting in secret Colombian trade talks).

Everything does smack of covert U.S. approval for this coup, unfortunately, with the State Department being the most suspicious actor. It would be very interesting to have a transcript of the pre-coup discussions between the coup plotters and Washington.

Methinks they overplayed their hand. Good article, by the way. And for live video, see:

english.aljazeera.net

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We should be ashamed of ourselves
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Posted by: willymack on Jul 1, 2009 10:37 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here in the "Land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave" we're witnessing a popular uprising and general strike against corporate repression and foreign (ours) meddling.
This is in tiny Honduras, whose people have so much more to lose with their actions than we would in this country.
Their courage should be an inspiration to us here, but, of course, won't. We're accustomed to licking the hand that beats us and worshiping thieving psychopaths.
Remember the 2000 "election"? Where was our legendary morality and courage of convictions then? Why didn't WE go on a nationwide strike and prevent the bush crime family from destroying our electoral process? Why, when it becomes ever more apparent that we'll be sold out yet again as regards health care, aren't we in the streets and threatening a national strike? Why, when it becomes ever more obvious that the heinous crimes of the past administration will be swept under the rug, aren't we up in arms with outrage? Why, when we're STILL in Iraq aren't we flooding the White House with letters of protest?
Something vital and precious has died within us, and is not likely to return. We should be ashamed of ourselves, but, of course, aren't.

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» RE: We should be ashamed of ourselves Posted by: Razional Thinker
» RE: We should be ashamed of ourselves Posted by: Razional Thinker

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Coup leaders deserve death
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Posted by: truthteller on Jul 1, 2009 10:51 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pres. Zelaya needs to lead a coalition army of his political allies in Central and S. America to take back Honduras for the people. This so smacks of CIA-U. S. empire action, down to General Vasquez being a graduate of our School of the Americas (which needs to be permanently shut down). Gen. Vasquez, Roberto Micheletti, and any officer above the rank of NCO should be captured and summarily executed for participating in this coup. This is treason against the legitimate civilian government, pure and simple, and the penalty for treason is well known to all - DEATH!

This coup needs to be reversed swiftly and without mercy. We are not going to go back to the bad old days of the U. S. deciding who is and is not a legitimate leader of a country based on the interests of our corporations. I stand with the working poor of Honduras, and against the fascist corporate interests who perpetrated this heinous act.

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first Chiquita and now clothing companies in charge
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Posted by: ZeeBruce on Jul 1, 2009 11:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The people of Honduras have been subjugated to the greed of American businessmen for over a century, and as in Haiti and Indonesia, so many other countries, when the leaders move to force a living wage, the USA government intervenes and the military leaders, trained at the School of the Americas, take control. How outrageous for a democratically elected president to force American companies to pay an extra dollar a day in wages to their Honduran workers. When American business people and American politicians talk about family values they clearly mean their own families and to hell with anyone else, let them eat cake.

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This coup is too much like
[Report this comment]
Posted by: bettyn on Jul 1, 2009 11:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
all the others we have been involved in over the years in South and Central America NOT to have a CIA connection. Is it a precursor to the overthrowal of the Venezuelan government? Inquiring minds want to know.

Is the CIA operating on orders of the current White House or does it contain rogue elements that are still loyal to previous administrations, in particular the last one (the absolute worst in our history)? Again, inquiring minds want to know.

Time for a serious investigation and possible house-cleaning at McLean and other covert government agencies. This is long, long overdue.

Are these organizations run for protection of American citizens or for the profits of the guys in the Petroleum Club of Houston and United Fruit Company? WE WANT TRANSPARENCY NOW!

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» RE: This coup is too much like Posted by: luzmejor

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WeMadeAmistake
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Posted by: aroleflin on Jul 1, 2009 12:15 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
HEADLINES JANUARY 20, 2009....President Bush has decided he doesn't want to leave office and wants a third term of office and intends to ignore the United States Constitution.....
Why doesn't the state run Obama media report the truth. Most Hondurans want their constitution respected an honored. This leftist communist cronie of dictator Chavez and Ortega has been sponsoring drug dealing, lying and trying to usurp the country's constitution....much like President Narcissist is doing in the USA. If you talk to most people who live in Hondorus, they will tell you they want the communist to step down as their own constitution mandates. Stop trying to tell lies like most communists like Obama employ. Obama lies now exceed over 175 since he took office...from lobbyists, to transparency, to 5 day public vetting. The biggest liar in U.S. history.

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» RE: WeMadeAmistake Posted by: Spot
» RE: WeMadeAmistake Posted by: luzmejor

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Just look at what Washington establishment think tanks have been saying:
[Report this comment]
Posted by: gunboat diplomat on Jul 1, 2009 3:07 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a nice blurb that explains a lot:

"Honduran Relationship with the United States
Despite this last minute history, Honduras has been a longtime supporter of U.S. international interests. As the U.S. Department of State website maintains, “Honduras is an ally of the United States and generally supports U.S. interests in international fora.” In 1985, Honduras backed the U.S. decision to oppose a Marxist Sandinista government in Nicaragua and a leftist insurgency in El Salvador. Honduras became one of the first nations to sign an International Criminal Court agreement with the U.S., and the U.S. has maintained a military presence at the Enrique Soto Cano Air base. In 2005, Honduras also became the first country in the Western Hemisphere to sign an agreement with the Multinational Challenge Corporation (MCC), in which this U.S. government organization allocated $215 million to help Honduras improve its transportation system and enhance its agricultural development.

Economically, Honduras is inextricably linked with the United States. Nearly two-thirds of the foreign investment in Honduras comes from this country, and the U.S. is also Honduras’ chief trading partner, specializing in the maquila industry (yarn and textiles). In 2004, Honduras signed the Central American Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA) with the U.S., eliminating tariffs and external barriers between the two countries while promoting regional integration. The multifaceted nature of U.S. influence in Honduras should have, but did not guarantee a strong relationship between the two nations."

This is about our interests in the region, or rather, the interests of bloated multinational corporations in the region - and their interests come first in Washington, while the interests of the ordinary people in the U.S. and Honduras come last.

Thank god the neoconservatives have been given the boot - now it's time to give the boot to the neoliberals as well - but please, don't trust Chavez, the Venezuelan oil princess, to look after Honduras interest's either.

FDR was probably the last U.S. president to vocally support the notion of national self-determination for all nations, and he had no fear that such nations would turn against the U.S., because it was so obvious that American-style democracy was far more attractive than Nazi fascism or Soviet communism, o or any other shade of authoritarian government.

Obama is no FDR - he's looking more and more like Truman or Johnson. If he keeps this kind of foreign policy in place, he might not even get a second term.

It's time to re-invigorate the anti-globalization movement - but let's be clear, that means opposing Chavez's effort to create his own 'sphere of influence' as well as those of the U.S. State Department. I mean, do you really think Chavez wants to lose the main source of his power, i.e. control of Venezuelan oil resources? I don't think so. He's just another oil princess, no different than the Saudis, the Iranians, and the international oil corporations. These people can't be trusted with jack.

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» But it was FDR... Posted by: davmills

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It is important to note that Obama refuses to officially designate this action as a "coup"
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Paul_C on Jul 1, 2009 3:33 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
choosing instead to play the smiley face puppet and pretend to be concerned.

This allows him to keep pouring military aid into the country, propping up the new dictator, while making nice with OAS leaders and pretending to be on the side of democracy.

peace,
Paul

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I propose a new marketing campaign: Obama is Bush
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Posted by: Paul_C on Jul 1, 2009 3:37 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's take Obama up on his offer of transparency (which he has shown zero interest in allowing) by creating a fresh marketing campaign to help voters understand what Obama actually stands for, namely that:

Obama is Bush

peace,
Paul

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A purely legal analysis of the conflict
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Posted by: Spot on Jul 1, 2009 9:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is available at counterpunch.org:

http://www.counterpunch.org/thorensen07012009.html

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What the???? An ADVERTISEMENT??? Alternet, get rid of this spam and the spammer!! n/m
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Paul_C on Jul 2, 2009 6:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
peace,
Paul

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» No problem, Paul. Posted by: Spot

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A wish for a different constitution
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Posted by: cplot on Jul 2, 2009 11:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many of these constitutional arguments amount to a wish for a different constitution. Its apparent from the arguments advanced that you all would have established a different constitution: one that placed the judiciary in a privileged position overseeing the other branches. However this is not the constitution the US has and neither is it the constitution Honduras has.

While you might think your proposed constitution would be more balanced (somehow), you need to consider other factors. First of all the strong checks and balances the executive enjoys compared to the judiciary are partly due to the structural differences between the two branches too. The judiciary are appointed for life while the President is elected for 4 year terms. The Congress which tries impeachments is comprised of members elected every two years. There are so many other factors to consider. In short the reliance of the judiciary on the President for some enforcement of judicial rulings is offset by the short term of the President (even shorter terms of the legislators who might try the president in impeachments).

You might think there's all sorts of ways you would do it different. That's fine. It helps to stimulate the intellect to imagine all the ways a government might be constituted and makes us all better civic participants. However, you have to get away from the idea of reading the document how you want it to be rather than what it says. Also its important to appreciate all of the nuance that goes into the document in terms of balancing these co-equal branches of government (before you consider disrupting the equality of these branches).

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» Straw-man alert Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Straw-man alert Posted by: cplot
» Yes of course Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Yes of course Posted by: cplot

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sex
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Posted by: sex on Jul 4, 2009 2:09 AM   
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OBAMA BACK THUG
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Posted by: reelman on Jul 5, 2009 12:27 PM   
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HONDURAS: THUG ZELAYA IGNORES CONSTITUTION

The country’s new government has vowed to arrest Zelaya for 18 alleged criminal acts including treason and failing to implement more than 80 laws approved by Congress since taking office in 2006.

Large crowds of Zelaya’s critics have staged their own daily demonstrations to back Micheletti, the congressional president who was named by lawmakers to finish out the final six months of the Zelaya’s term.

Most of the ousted leader’s supporters come from the working and middle classes of this impoverished nation…..

The military ousted Zelaya with the backing of Honduras’ political establishment, including the Supreme Court, Congress and Zelaya’s own party. He was insisting on following through with a referendum on constitutional change that the Supreme Court ruled illegal.

But by sending soldiers to shoot up the presidential residence and fly Zelaya into exile, the Micheletti government has brought itself universal condemnations from the United Nations and OAS. No nation has recognized the new government; U.S. President Barack Obama has united with conservative Alvaro Uribe of Colombia and leftist Hugo Chavez of Venezuela in criticism.

CRAWFISH NOTE: When the constitution of a country is totally ignored…whose side has all the lefty thugs in the region plus our own lefty thug Obama? Yep, the side of a Chavez or Castro Junior is where democrat J. Carter Obama picks to land. Makes sense to me.

http://conservablogs.com/theconservativecrawfish

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WATCH WHO TAKES WHAT SIDE!
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Posted by: reelman on Jul 5, 2009 1:14 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'd like to know what IS the remedy for a Prez who won't follow the law. Seems when the other 2 branches unite to tell him to go (& he can't have a 3rd term), & he won't go - THAT IS THE PROPER USE OF THE MILITARY.

Seems like a little girl excuse, "Oh no, they have guns." (BTW when the military is corrupt, we have armed citizens to do the right thing, using the 2nd Amendment in its intended way - who knows what these countries have?)
And they need to use them to expel the illegal Prez.
This is why those countries south of the border get it wrong so much, even when they do the right thing, their neighbors, unused to how to resolve illegal conflicts between the branches of govt. & now facing a potential tyrant, don't comprehend.

BTW they are all in favor (lib-media/dems) of shooting-things-up force when ousting a right-wing dictator via some leftist (thug-in-waiting).

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