COMMENTS: 103
What Made Him Snap? Soldier Goes on Killing Spree in Baghdad 'Stress Clinic'
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At 2 p.m. (Baghdad time) Monday, a U.S. soldier opened fire on his fellow troops at the Camp Liberty stress clinic.
The stress clinic is where service members are treated for psychological conditions. As of this writing, the military is reporting that the shooter killed five American soldiers, wounded three others and is now in custody. His name, his deployment history and his association with the clinic have not yet been released.
The incident, according to military sources, is the deadliest attack on troops by a fellow soldier since these wars began.
Since our invasion of Iraq, compelling analogies have been made to the war in Vietnam. Specifically, but not exclusively, we have again invaded a country in the name of freedom. We are again treating civilian populations as collateral damage. And we have again betrayed the soldiers who are fighting in our name, soldiers who were told they would be greeted as liberators, who were given inappropriate training and shamefully inadequate equipment and asked to risk their lives for reasons that have repeatedly shifted as each of the justifications for the invasion have been exposed as lies.
To my knowledge, there were no comparable massacres of American soldiers by other service members during the Vietnam years, but that is not to say that there weren't plenty of examples of American guns being turned on other Americans. Those examples have, to a tragic degree, been erased both from official history and even communal memory, leaving us far less prepared for the present, not to mention the future.
First, there were the so-called "fraggings," (a term used to describe attempts by soldiers to kill or injure their own officers with a fragmentation device, usually a grenade). In 1972, Sen. Charles Mathias, R-Md., called fragging the most tragic word in all the lexicon of war, "with all that it implies of total failure of discipline and depression of morale, the complete sense of frustration and confusion and the loss of goals and hope itself."
In 2006, when I was doing research for my book Flashback, I discovered the extent to which American soldiers resorted to such desperate measures:
The U.S. Army does not have exact statistics on how many officers were killed in Vietnam in this manner, but in December 1972, the Defense Department acknowledged between 800 and 1,000 actual or suspected fraggings. It also admitted that it could not account for the deaths of over 1,400 other officers and NCOs.
It should be noted that this number does not include incidents that occurred in other branches of service. Neither does it include attempts to kill by other means. In eloquent militarese, (military historians Richard A.) Gabriel and (Paul L.) Savage write, "The category of assaults by 'explosive device' excludes attempts to kill 'leadership elements' by other means, such as a rifle, automatic-weapons fire, ambush by claymore mines and misdirection to hostile ambush."
These figures suggest that 20 to 25 percent -- if not more -- of all officers killed during the war were killed by their own men. In 1971, the Americal Division (of My Lai infamy) was experiencing one fragging a week. The Army was clearly at war with itself.
Fraggings in Iraq have reportedly been rare, but in today's Army, officers aren't rotated every six months, as they were in Vietnam. That allows them more than just a narrow window of opportunity to win the trust of their troops and means they're less likely to be to be naïve and inexperienced. They may also be less likely to take excessive risk with their soldiers' lives to prove themselves worthy of promotion.
The Army may be more of a meritocracy today than it was then -- it may even be a more egalitarian and racially harmonious society -- but it has endured multiple deployments, and the psychic damage that results from long and terrible exposure to combat has been well documented.
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Posted by: Pop on May 11, 2009 7:40 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama must be impeached and our troops brought home from all of the US criminal wars.
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» How about the assholes that started this mess?
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: How about the assholes that started this mess?
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Good Morning Rip!!!
Posted by: Purple Girl
» RE: Good Morning Rip!!!
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Good Morning Rip!!!
Posted by: babs
» RE: Good Morning Rip!!!
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Kill-kill-kill
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Actually, he's been consistent since before the primaries
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» 100,000 sent home or redeployed to Afghanistan
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: 100,000 sent home or redeployed to Afghanistan
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» So your main point was (is) that...
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: So your main point was (is) that...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» I agree, invasion requires the support of...
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: I agree, invasion requires the support of...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Thanks for your reply!
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: I agree, invasion requires the support of...
Posted by: grangersmith
» RE: Kill-kill-kill
Posted by: clvngodess
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Posted by: pfgetty on May 11, 2009 8:07 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To end the war, tell us how it began. Tell us what really happened that day, 9/11, that allowed Bush/Cheyney to begin that war.
If you examine the facts and overwhelming, glaring evidence of that day, you will see convincingly that the official story of 9/11 is a fraud, and used to remake the Middle East, as promised in the PNAC papers signed by the Neoconservatives. And Afghanistan was step one.
Do you really not know for sure that the 9/11 story we are told is a fairytale? If you don't, you have not looked and taken the time.
If you do, you will find PROOF that they have lied to us.........the government was complicit in 9/11. Email me if you don't know where to start to find the proof, at pfgetty@embarqmail.com.
Do the research. It should be easy. The work has been done by Steven Jones, Peter Dale Scott, Kevin Ryan, David Ray Griffin, Kevin Ryan, and other great patriotic and brave people.
I wish you'd join them as the first journalist to be unafraid to do what can save our nation: bring the truth of 9/11 to the American people.
We are counting on you, Penny. The world is counting on you. Stop the insanity. You can do it. And then tell us why the rest of the journalists have completely ignored the most important story of all time.
I am pleading with you!
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» Will you please just stfu!
Posted by: GerryAttric
» RE: He killed because war is hell. Penny, you could stop the hell: expose the lies of 9/11.
Posted by: mikeblack
» Conspiracy!
Posted by: hagwind
» Mikeblack
Posted by: Opinionator
» Does anybody remember Operation North Woods anymore ?
Posted by: u2r1
» "This [9/11 Commission] is a scam," Cleland said. "It's disgusting. America is being cheated."
Posted by: LeftWright
» "The final [9/11 Commission] report is ultimately a coverup. I don't know how else to describe it."
Posted by: LeftWright
» William Christison - Former Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis
Posted by: LeftWright
» RE: He killed because war is hell. Penny, you could stop the hell: expose the lies of 9/11.
Posted by: lively56
» MRS. SIBEL EDMONDS - whistleblower and former top-level FBI translator
Posted by: LeftWright
» Coleen Rowley – Former Special Agent and Minneapolis Division Counsel, FBI.
Posted by: LeftWright
» Louis Freeh – Director of the FBI, 1993 - 2001.
Posted by: LeftWright
» Raymond L. McGovern – Former Chairman, National Intelligence Estimates
Posted by: LeftWright
» "They [NORAD] lied to the American people, they lied to Congress and they lied to your 9/11 Commissi
Posted by: LeftWright
» To anyone truly interested in learning about the events of 9/11/01, here are some places to start:
Posted by: LeftWright
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Posted by: villager1 on May 12, 2009 12:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only reason wars are declared is for the money! Arms are supplied - money made - destruction occurs and more money is made by lending to rebuild. Soldiers kill their superiors for promotion and better pay! where does the insanity stop?
As long as politicians, bankers and financial scoundrels rule this planet the insanity will not stop! Each minute another greedy scoundrel is born with only one aim in mind - to rule and enrich himself at all costs,including killing off everyone and anyone who disagrees with him!
Time advances, but we stay the same - at some stage there will be nowhere to turn and we will self destruct!
Only the rich will remain who will turn on one another until there is nothing left to need except life itself which will no longer be of any importance anyway!
We are an absolute disgrace! Yes - those who do these outrageous deeds and those of us who allow them to do them! All of us! May God have mercy!
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» RE: villager
Posted by: willymack
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Posted by: GerryAttric on May 12, 2009 12:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
American troops were drafted during the Vietnam war. Although there is Stop loss the soldiers are for the most part all voluteers this time.
It makes a big psychological difference to someone when they are being forced to fight and kill as opposed to willfully and willingly doing it. It is probably THE biggest distinction between soldiers of Vietnam and Soldiers of Iraq. I find it funny you never seem to mention or dwell on that. It was probably much more the reason for fragging than combat trauma.
Otherwise it was a good article.
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» RE: You missed another major difference between Vietnam.....
Posted by: ppcoleman
» RE: You missed another major difference between Vietnam.....
Posted by: jleman
» RE: You missed another major difference between Vietnam.....
Posted by: peacefullaim1
» RE: You missed another major difference between Vietnam.....
Posted by: cats.anon
» Don't worry, with the economy collapsing the military will be the only option for the young
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» I've heard versions of this "Wars since Vietnam have been pussy wars" argument many times now,
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: You missed another major difference between Vietnam.....
Posted by: willymack
» There are TWO kinds of "Draft"...
Posted by: jvaljon1
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Posted by: Purple Girl on May 12, 2009 5:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is Blood on the Bushies hand it is not just the innocent civilians, or those who died from Torturous conditions.....It's American Blood too.
those who were not killed or maimed were used, abused and neglected psychological- torture without Bruises.And it is not just the military they have psychologically abused consider the number of violent meltdowns by average citizens lately, Directly related to the economic policies of the Bush Years.Yesterday's attack in Bagdad is just a reflection of what is happening around the country.
This misuse and abuse of OUR Armed Services,and our citizens, constitutes yet another charge of TREASON. One in a long list of High crimes against the State that Cheney,Rummy and Wolfie should HANG for.
Muster up your fortitude Folks, strengthen stomachs we have some executions which must be performed to right Domestic and international Wrongs.
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» RE: Cheney,Rummy & Wolfie should Hang for their Treason
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» They should, but you will never get them on the end of a rope because of torture.
Posted by: pfgetty
» RE: They should, but you will never get them on the end of a rope because of torture.
Posted by: willymack
» Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right
Posted by: mikeblack
» all this sympathy for the poor abused soldiers
Posted by: u2r1
» RE: all this sympathy for the poor abused soldiers
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Cheney,Rummy & Wolfie should Hang for their Treason
Posted by: Hiroak
Comments are closed-
Posted by: and_abottleofrum on May 12, 2009 6:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Warning: Real Shredded Faces (Rifle shots will do that)
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» RE: Maybe this is what made him snap
Posted by: hagwind
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Posted by: and_abottleofrum on May 12, 2009 6:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a vehicle
Apparently a dead GI (looks like white American but can't really tell
Decaying Iraqi in sand
Dead Iraqi, face marginally recognizable
Offended? Too damn bad, that's what war really is. Face reality. This is what's done in your name if you're an American.
It could cause killing sprees.
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» The third guy is actually an Afghan decaying in the sand, however the point remains.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: Here's a few choice Iraq images
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Anna, always in denial wanting me not to post these things. Such conditions as shown in the photos
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» In fact my point was written in the original post, but you were too busy being offended to notice.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: Here's a few choice Iraq images
Posted by: peacefullaim1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: leafsong1 on May 12, 2009 7:54 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Who cares why? Bush-Obama is the same old theme, "Bring 'em on" mentality!
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: Who cares why? Bush-Obama is the same old theme, "Bring 'em on" mentality!
Posted by: robert.noll
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: robert.noll
» Attitude
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: Caleb Darkstar
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: Caleb Darkstar
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: Caleb Darkstar
» We all should know the perpetrators
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: Hiroak
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: RedAaron
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on May 12, 2009 8:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
prevented. Americans have to understand that if we are to continue to start wars, we need a military draft. Or we should stay out of it. We can't contiue to feed our people into a meat grinder and talk about what an outstanding job they do and how proud they make their leaders. It's time to drive the politicians and the Generals crazy with mail, phone calls, emails and any other way we can find to make it impossible to ignore us. This is unconscionable and never should have happened. I know this is Bush's war but at this point the Democrats are in full control. Thay should be reiminded that they should not be acting in their own best interest. They should be protecting the interests of people they send to war. The Generals have lost their sense of loyalty and their direction. They no longer identify with their troops, they are part of the elite Washington crowd. Well, They're not. They are soldiers. And to Pres. Obama, the new Commander in Chief I suggest he get to the Constitution he knows so much about. Read a little about the things what George Washington said about his troops. Check in with your favorite, Abraham Linclon. Their thoughts about their soldiers will give you alot to think about. They would not approve of the way we treat our military and neither should you. There have been many wake up calls most of which have been ignored. This one can't be buried and explained away. It's larger than life and is symptomatic of problems faced by our soldiers everyday. It is not part of the deal nor is it what they signed on for. They are clearly being abused, physically damaged and driven crazy. It's morally wrong. Thanks,ANNA
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» Democrats Would Have To Stem-Cell Grow Themselves Spines First
Posted by: mikeblack
» Democrats' fear of Republican bully rhetoric is only part of the picture.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: Democrats' fear of Republican bully rhetoric is only part of the picture.
Posted by: mikeblack
» RE: MAYBE THIS IS THE END OF 'STOP LOSS'
Posted by: robert.noll
» RE: MAYBE THIS IS THE END OF 'STOP LOSS'
Posted by: clvngodess
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mikeblack on May 12, 2009 8:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The military’s attitude towards mental health is disgusting. Basically anybody requesting psychiatric help is written up by their superiors, called a pussy by their fellow soldiers, and has to just “deal with it”.
So what happens? You have a bunch of soldiers going insane on the battlefield like Steven Green and the Abu Graib guards. You have soldiers coming home and going insane like dozens of documented cases of Iraq veterans who came home and murdered family or even strangers. You also have the highest rate of soldier suicide in military history. And nothing gets done.
The son of a friend of my mother recently got out of the Marines after serving for years. When I went back home I ran into him and I asked him about the suicide epidemic in soldiers and he brushed it off with saying “Kids today are a bunch of wimps. Nobody in my generation and before acted like this.” Sadly I’m sure this is the prevailing opinion in the military.
I’ve also worried for years how many new Timothy McVeigh’s we will get. There’s already a brewing anti-government sentiment that is reminiscent of the mid-90s militia movement that spawned McVeigh and Terry Nichols. Adding disgruntled veterans angry at being lied to by their government, angry that they aren’t being cared for, angry that they can’t find post-military employment. Man, that could be a level of ugliness we’ve never seen if we don’t do something.
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» RE: This Is What Happens When Mental Health Is Mocked By The Military
Posted by: jmndodge
» RE: This Is What Happens When Mental Health Is Mocked By The Military
Posted by: mikeblack
» What's tragic is that there are so few such events.
Posted by: RedAaron
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Posted by: Caleb Darkstar on May 12, 2009 9:25 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» There are a lot more students in college than military personnel in war zones.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: More people were killed in colleges by fellow students...
Posted by: mikeblack
» RE: More people were killed in colleges by fellow students...
Posted by: peacefullaim1
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Posted by: sausage on May 12, 2009 9:49 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not that in a mixed military, part draftee part enlistee, there would never be incidents such as this. But in the event that this president or some future president commits U.S. troops to another long-term military involvement, such as we are now mired in Iraq, a draft will provide fresh troops without having to rely on overworked, over-traumatized regulars, reservists and National Guards. Let us hope this never happens and also let us hope that a draft is never needed to fill the army's ranks.
The irony, however, is that General Creighton Abrams, for whom the M1A1 battle tank is named, attempted to build the AVF, with its heavy reliance on reservists and the National Guard, as an extra-Constitutional brake on presidential military adventurism. As we can see, since the good general's premature death in 1974, this idea has not worked out in actual practice.
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» RE: Haven't we had enough of this All Volunteer Force?
Posted by: mikeblack
» RE: Haven't we had enough of this All Volunteer Force? YES
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: Perry Logan on May 12, 2009 10:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And the fruits of the Republican Revolution just keep coming...
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Posted by: willymack on May 12, 2009 11:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: KinShipSteward on May 12, 2009 2:15 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» In a very broad way fragging someone indicates you're not happy with your situation.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» Fragging is real Resistance to War!
Posted by: RedAaron
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ghoulman on May 12, 2009 4:17 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can you imagine being a soldier who has burned completely out and the 'psychologist' at the clinic at Camp Liberty just tells you it's a part of your growth as a warrior? WTF? Are we Spartans now???
Oh wait, Christian warriors? Oh wait, I smell a pattern? Hmmm. Where were these psychologists hired from? Hmmm.
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Posted by: Lilly on May 12, 2009 5:44 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think of my uncle who was sane when he went off to World War II in the South Pacific but, after holding a jungle station alone for some incredible period of time after all his companions were dead, he came back very crazy and spent the rest of his life, 25 years, in a VA hospital, first on a locked ward and then in a chair, after Thorazine was invented. It was absolute tragedy for him and for his wife (and I guess for the children they never had). I think maybe we are more comfortable when our wounded vets have lost a leg, rather than their mind.
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Posted by: Dr T on May 12, 2009 8:07 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Canadian military call it Operational Stress Injury. I suggest Combat Stress Injury since it is a wound much more than a disorder.
"Warrior" is best for historical accounts of cultures of the past (e.g., Native American). Soldier or Marine fits best in a modern Army.
For a short film that captures the modern injury, try:
http://www.kylehs.com/films/nowafter/flash.html
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» RE: Scrap PTSD, warrior, and some other outmoded terms.
Posted by: peacefullaim1
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Posted by: outsideagitator on May 17, 2009 9:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Be strong sister.
Keep on Keeping On!
Joseph
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» RE: Thank you for your excellent
Posted by: Catherine42
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Posted by: Pop on May 11, 2009 7:40 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama must be impeached and our troops brought home from all of the US criminal wars.
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» How about the assholes that started this mess?
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: How about the assholes that started this mess?
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Good Morning Rip!!!
Posted by: Purple Girl
» RE: Good Morning Rip!!!
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Good Morning Rip!!!
Posted by: babs
» RE: Good Morning Rip!!!
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Kill-kill-kill
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Actually, he's been consistent since before the primaries
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» 100,000 sent home or redeployed to Afghanistan
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: 100,000 sent home or redeployed to Afghanistan
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» So your main point was (is) that...
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: So your main point was (is) that...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» I agree, invasion requires the support of...
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: I agree, invasion requires the support of...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Thanks for your reply!
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: I agree, invasion requires the support of...
Posted by: grangersmith
» RE: Kill-kill-kill
Posted by: clvngodess
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pfgetty on May 11, 2009 8:07 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To end the war, tell us how it began. Tell us what really happened that day, 9/11, that allowed Bush/Cheyney to begin that war.
If you examine the facts and overwhelming, glaring evidence of that day, you will see convincingly that the official story of 9/11 is a fraud, and used to remake the Middle East, as promised in the PNAC papers signed by the Neoconservatives. And Afghanistan was step one.
Do you really not know for sure that the 9/11 story we are told is a fairytale? If you don't, you have not looked and taken the time.
If you do, you will find PROOF that they have lied to us.........the government was complicit in 9/11. Email me if you don't know where to start to find the proof, at pfgetty@embarqmail.com.
Do the research. It should be easy. The work has been done by Steven Jones, Peter Dale Scott, Kevin Ryan, David Ray Griffin, Kevin Ryan, and other great patriotic and brave people.
I wish you'd join them as the first journalist to be unafraid to do what can save our nation: bring the truth of 9/11 to the American people.
We are counting on you, Penny. The world is counting on you. Stop the insanity. You can do it. And then tell us why the rest of the journalists have completely ignored the most important story of all time.
I am pleading with you!
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» Will you please just stfu!
Posted by: GerryAttric
» RE: He killed because war is hell. Penny, you could stop the hell: expose the lies of 9/11.
Posted by: mikeblack
» Conspiracy!
Posted by: hagwind
» Mikeblack
Posted by: Opinionator
» Does anybody remember Operation North Woods anymore ?
Posted by: u2r1
» "This [9/11 Commission] is a scam," Cleland said. "It's disgusting. America is being cheated."
Posted by: LeftWright
» "The final [9/11 Commission] report is ultimately a coverup. I don't know how else to describe it."
Posted by: LeftWright
» William Christison - Former Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis
Posted by: LeftWright
» RE: He killed because war is hell. Penny, you could stop the hell: expose the lies of 9/11.
Posted by: lively56
» MRS. SIBEL EDMONDS - whistleblower and former top-level FBI translator
Posted by: LeftWright
» Coleen Rowley – Former Special Agent and Minneapolis Division Counsel, FBI.
Posted by: LeftWright
» Louis Freeh – Director of the FBI, 1993 - 2001.
Posted by: LeftWright
» Raymond L. McGovern – Former Chairman, National Intelligence Estimates
Posted by: LeftWright
» "They [NORAD] lied to the American people, they lied to Congress and they lied to your 9/11 Commissi
Posted by: LeftWright
» To anyone truly interested in learning about the events of 9/11/01, here are some places to start:
Posted by: LeftWright
Comments are closed-
Posted by: villager1 on May 12, 2009 12:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only reason wars are declared is for the money! Arms are supplied - money made - destruction occurs and more money is made by lending to rebuild. Soldiers kill their superiors for promotion and better pay! where does the insanity stop?
As long as politicians, bankers and financial scoundrels rule this planet the insanity will not stop! Each minute another greedy scoundrel is born with only one aim in mind - to rule and enrich himself at all costs,including killing off everyone and anyone who disagrees with him!
Time advances, but we stay the same - at some stage there will be nowhere to turn and we will self destruct!
Only the rich will remain who will turn on one another until there is nothing left to need except life itself which will no longer be of any importance anyway!
We are an absolute disgrace! Yes - those who do these outrageous deeds and those of us who allow them to do them! All of us! May God have mercy!
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» RE: villager
Posted by: willymack
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GerryAttric on May 12, 2009 12:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
American troops were drafted during the Vietnam war. Although there is Stop loss the soldiers are for the most part all voluteers this time.
It makes a big psychological difference to someone when they are being forced to fight and kill as opposed to willfully and willingly doing it. It is probably THE biggest distinction between soldiers of Vietnam and Soldiers of Iraq. I find it funny you never seem to mention or dwell on that. It was probably much more the reason for fragging than combat trauma.
Otherwise it was a good article.
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» RE: You missed another major difference between Vietnam.....
Posted by: ppcoleman
» RE: You missed another major difference between Vietnam.....
Posted by: jleman
» RE: You missed another major difference between Vietnam.....
Posted by: peacefullaim1
» RE: You missed another major difference between Vietnam.....
Posted by: cats.anon
» Don't worry, with the economy collapsing the military will be the only option for the young
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» I've heard versions of this "Wars since Vietnam have been pussy wars" argument many times now,
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: You missed another major difference between Vietnam.....
Posted by: willymack
» There are TWO kinds of "Draft"...
Posted by: jvaljon1
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Posted by: Purple Girl on May 12, 2009 5:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is Blood on the Bushies hand it is not just the innocent civilians, or those who died from Torturous conditions.....It's American Blood too.
those who were not killed or maimed were used, abused and neglected psychological- torture without Bruises.And it is not just the military they have psychologically abused consider the number of violent meltdowns by average citizens lately, Directly related to the economic policies of the Bush Years.Yesterday's attack in Bagdad is just a reflection of what is happening around the country.
This misuse and abuse of OUR Armed Services,and our citizens, constitutes yet another charge of TREASON. One in a long list of High crimes against the State that Cheney,Rummy and Wolfie should HANG for.
Muster up your fortitude Folks, strengthen stomachs we have some executions which must be performed to right Domestic and international Wrongs.
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» RE: Cheney,Rummy & Wolfie should Hang for their Treason
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» They should, but you will never get them on the end of a rope because of torture.
Posted by: pfgetty
» RE: They should, but you will never get them on the end of a rope because of torture.
Posted by: willymack
» Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right
Posted by: mikeblack
» all this sympathy for the poor abused soldiers
Posted by: u2r1
» RE: all this sympathy for the poor abused soldiers
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Cheney,Rummy & Wolfie should Hang for their Treason
Posted by: Hiroak
Comments are closed-
Posted by: and_abottleofrum on May 12, 2009 6:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Warning: Real Shredded Faces (Rifle shots will do that)
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» RE: Maybe this is what made him snap
Posted by: hagwind
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Posted by: and_abottleofrum on May 12, 2009 6:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a vehicle
Apparently a dead GI (looks like white American but can't really tell
Decaying Iraqi in sand
Dead Iraqi, face marginally recognizable
Offended? Too damn bad, that's what war really is. Face reality. This is what's done in your name if you're an American.
It could cause killing sprees.
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» The third guy is actually an Afghan decaying in the sand, however the point remains.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: Here's a few choice Iraq images
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Anna, always in denial wanting me not to post these things. Such conditions as shown in the photos
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» In fact my point was written in the original post, but you were too busy being offended to notice.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: Here's a few choice Iraq images
Posted by: peacefullaim1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: leafsong1 on May 12, 2009 7:54 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Who cares why? Bush-Obama is the same old theme, "Bring 'em on" mentality!
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: Who cares why? Bush-Obama is the same old theme, "Bring 'em on" mentality!
Posted by: robert.noll
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: robert.noll
» Attitude
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: Caleb Darkstar
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: Caleb Darkstar
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: Caleb Darkstar
» We all should know the perpetrators
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: Hiroak
» RE: Who cares why?
Posted by: RedAaron
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on May 12, 2009 8:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
prevented. Americans have to understand that if we are to continue to start wars, we need a military draft. Or we should stay out of it. We can't contiue to feed our people into a meat grinder and talk about what an outstanding job they do and how proud they make their leaders. It's time to drive the politicians and the Generals crazy with mail, phone calls, emails and any other way we can find to make it impossible to ignore us. This is unconscionable and never should have happened. I know this is Bush's war but at this point the Democrats are in full control. Thay should be reiminded that they should not be acting in their own best interest. They should be protecting the interests of people they send to war. The Generals have lost their sense of loyalty and their direction. They no longer identify with their troops, they are part of the elite Washington crowd. Well, They're not. They are soldiers. And to Pres. Obama, the new Commander in Chief I suggest he get to the Constitution he knows so much about. Read a little about the things what George Washington said about his troops. Check in with your favorite, Abraham Linclon. Their thoughts about their soldiers will give you alot to think about. They would not approve of the way we treat our military and neither should you. There have been many wake up calls most of which have been ignored. This one can't be buried and explained away. It's larger than life and is symptomatic of problems faced by our soldiers everyday. It is not part of the deal nor is it what they signed on for. They are clearly being abused, physically damaged and driven crazy. It's morally wrong. Thanks,ANNA
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» Democrats Would Have To Stem-Cell Grow Themselves Spines First
Posted by: mikeblack
» Democrats' fear of Republican bully rhetoric is only part of the picture.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: Democrats' fear of Republican bully rhetoric is only part of the picture.
Posted by: mikeblack
» RE: MAYBE THIS IS THE END OF 'STOP LOSS'
Posted by: robert.noll
» RE: MAYBE THIS IS THE END OF 'STOP LOSS'
Posted by: clvngodess
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mikeblack on May 12, 2009 8:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The military’s attitude towards mental health is disgusting. Basically anybody requesting psychiatric help is written up by their superiors, called a pussy by their fellow soldiers, and has to just “deal with it”.
So what happens? You have a bunch of soldiers going insane on the battlefield like Steven Green and the Abu Graib guards. You have soldiers coming home and going insane like dozens of documented cases of Iraq veterans who came home and murdered family or even strangers. You also have the highest rate of soldier suicide in military history. And nothing gets done.
The son of a friend of my mother recently got out of the Marines after serving for years. When I went back home I ran into him and I asked him about the suicide epidemic in soldiers and he brushed it off with saying “Kids today are a bunch of wimps. Nobody in my generation and before acted like this.” Sadly I’m sure this is the prevailing opinion in the military.
I’ve also worried for years how many new Timothy McVeigh’s we will get. There’s already a brewing anti-government sentiment that is reminiscent of the mid-90s militia movement that spawned McVeigh and Terry Nichols. Adding disgruntled veterans angry at being lied to by their government, angry that they aren’t being cared for, angry that they can’t find post-military employment. Man, that could be a level of ugliness we’ve never seen if we don’t do something.
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» RE: This Is What Happens When Mental Health Is Mocked By The Military
Posted by: jmndodge
» RE: This Is What Happens When Mental Health Is Mocked By The Military
Posted by: mikeblack
» What's tragic is that there are so few such events.
Posted by: RedAaron
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Posted by: Caleb Darkstar on May 12, 2009 9:25 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» There are a lot more students in college than military personnel in war zones.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: More people were killed in colleges by fellow students...
Posted by: mikeblack
» RE: More people were killed in colleges by fellow students...
Posted by: peacefullaim1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sausage on May 12, 2009 9:49 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not that in a mixed military, part draftee part enlistee, there would never be incidents such as this. But in the event that this president or some future president commits U.S. troops to another long-term military involvement, such as we are now mired in Iraq, a draft will provide fresh troops without having to rely on overworked, over-traumatized regulars, reservists and National Guards. Let us hope this never happens and also let us hope that a draft is never needed to fill the army's ranks.
The irony, however, is that General Creighton Abrams, for whom the M1A1 battle tank is named, attempted to build the AVF, with its heavy reliance on reservists and the National Guard, as an extra-Constitutional brake on presidential military adventurism. As we can see, since the good general's premature death in 1974, this idea has not worked out in actual practice.
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» RE: Haven't we had enough of this All Volunteer Force?
Posted by: mikeblack
» RE: Haven't we had enough of this All Volunteer Force? YES
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: Perry Logan on May 12, 2009 10:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And the fruits of the Republican Revolution just keep coming...
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Posted by: willymack on May 12, 2009 11:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: KinShipSteward on May 12, 2009 2:15 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» In a very broad way fragging someone indicates you're not happy with your situation.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» Fragging is real Resistance to War!
Posted by: RedAaron
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ghoulman on May 12, 2009 4:17 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can you imagine being a soldier who has burned completely out and the 'psychologist' at the clinic at Camp Liberty just tells you it's a part of your growth as a warrior? WTF? Are we Spartans now???
Oh wait, Christian warriors? Oh wait, I smell a pattern? Hmmm. Where were these psychologists hired from? Hmmm.
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Posted by: Lilly on May 12, 2009 5:44 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think of my uncle who was sane when he went off to World War II in the South Pacific but, after holding a jungle station alone for some incredible period of time after all his companions were dead, he came back very crazy and spent the rest of his life, 25 years, in a VA hospital, first on a locked ward and then in a chair, after Thorazine was invented. It was absolute tragedy for him and for his wife (and I guess for the children they never had). I think maybe we are more comfortable when our wounded vets have lost a leg, rather than their mind.
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Posted by: Dr T on May 12, 2009 8:07 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Canadian military call it Operational Stress Injury. I suggest Combat Stress Injury since it is a wound much more than a disorder.
"Warrior" is best for historical accounts of cultures of the past (e.g., Native American). Soldier or Marine fits best in a modern Army.
For a short film that captures the modern injury, try:
http://www.kylehs.com/films/nowafter/flash.html
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» RE: Scrap PTSD, warrior, and some other outmoded terms.
Posted by: peacefullaim1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: outsideagitator on May 17, 2009 9:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Be strong sister.
Keep on Keeping On!
Joseph
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» RE: Thank you for your excellent
Posted by: Catherine42
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