Home
Archive
Newsletters
Video
Blogs
Discuss
About
Search
Donate
Advertise

Controversial Bestseller Shakes the Foundation of the Israeli State

By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted January 28, 2009.


What if the entire tale of the Jewish Diaspora is historically wrong?
Advertisement
Upcoming AlterNet stories on Digg

What if the Palestinian Arabs who have lived for decades under the heel of the modern Israeli state are in fact descended from the very same "children of Israel" described in the Old Testament?

And what if most modern Israelis aren't descended from the ancient Israelites at all, but are actually a mix of Europeans, North Africans and others who didn't "return" to the scrap of land we now call Israel and establish a new state following the attempt to exterminate them during World War II, but came in and forcefully displaced people whose ancestors had lived there for millennia?

What if the entire tale of the Jewish Diaspora -- the story recounted at Passover tables by Jews around the world every year detailing the ancient Jews' exile from Judea, the years spent wandering through the desert, their escape from the Pharaoh's clutches -- is all wrong?

That's the explosive thesis of When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?, a book by Tel Aviv University scholar Shlomo Zand (or Sand) that sent shockwaves across Israeli society when it was published last year. After 19 weeks on the Israeli best-seller list, the book is being translated into a dozen languages and will be published in the United States this year by Verso.

Its thesis has ramifications that go far beyond some antediluvian academic debate. Few modern conflicts are as attached to ancient history as that decades-long cycle of bloodletting between Israelis and Palestinians. Each group lays claim to the same scrap of land -- holy in all three of the world's major Abrahamic religions -- based on long-standing ties to that chunk of earth and national identities formed over long periods of time. There's probably no other place on Earth where the present is as intimately tied to the ancient.

Central to the ideology of Zionism is the tale -- familiar to all Jewish families -- of exile, oppression, redemption and return. Booted from their kingdom, the "Jewish people" -- sons and daughters of ancient Judea -- wandered the earth, rootless, where they faced cruel suppression from all corners -- from being forced to toil in slavery under the Egyptians, to the Spanish massacres of the 14th century and Russian pogroms of the 19th, through to the horrors of the Third Reich.

This view of history animates all Zionists, but none more so than the influential but reactionary minority -- in the United States as well as Israel -- who believe that God bestowed a "Greater Israel" -- one that encompasses the modern state as well as the Occupied Territories -- on the Jewish people, and who resist any effort to create a Palestinian state on biblical grounds.

Inventing a People?

Zand's central argument is that the Romans didn't expel whole nations from their territories. Zand estimates that perhaps 10,000 ancient Judeans were vanquished during the Roman wars, and the remaining inhabitants of ancient Judea remained, converting to Islam and assimilating with their conquerors when Arabs subjugated the area. They became the progenitors of today's Palestinian Arabs, many of whom now live as refugees who were exiled from their homeland during the 20th century.

As Israeli journalist Tom Segev summarized, in a review of the book in Ha'aretz:

There never was a Jewish people, only a Jewish religion, and the exile also never happened -- hence there was no return. Zand rejects most of the stories of national-identity formation in the Bible, including the exodus from Egypt and, most satisfactorily, the horrors of the conquest under Joshua.

But this begs the question: if the ancient people of Judea weren't expelled en masse, then how did it come to pass that Jewish people are scattered across the world? According to Zand, who offers detailed histories of several groups within what is conventionally known as the Jewish Diaspora, some were Jews who emigrated of their own volition, and many more were later converts to Judaism. Contrary to popular belief, Zand argues that Judaism was an evangelical religion that actively sought out new adherents during its formative period.

This narrative has huge significance in terms of Israel's national identity. If Judaism is a religion, rather than "a people" descended from a dispersed nation, then it brings into question the central justification for the state of Israel remaining a "Jewish state."

And that brings us to Zand's second assertion. He argues that the story of the Jewish nation -- the transformation of the Jewish people from a group with a shared cultural identity and religious faith into a vanquished "people" -- was a relatively recent invention, hatched in the 19th century by Zionist scholars and advanced by the Israeli academic establishment. It was, argues Zand, an intellectual conspiracy of sorts. Segev says, "It's all fiction and myth that served as an excuse for the establishment of the State of Israel."

Zand Gets Slammed; Do His Arguments Stand Up?

The ramifications of Zand's argument are far-reaching; "the chances that the Palestinians are descendants of the ancient Judaic people are much greater than the chances that you or I are its descendants," he told Ha'aretz. Zand argues that Israel should be a state in which all of the inhabitants of what was once "British Palestine" share the full rights and responsibilities of citizenship, rather than maintaining it as a "Jewish and democratic" state, as it's now identified.


Digg!    Share on facebook   submit to reddit    Bookmark on Delicious   Stumble This  

See more stories tagged with: israel, bible, diaspora, zand, sand, exodus

Joshua Holland is an AlterNet staff writer.

Liked this story? Get top stories in your inbox each week from World! Sign up now »


Advertisement
Advertisement

 

Comments Turn comments off sitewide Give us feedback »
Comments closed.
The comments for this story have been closed. Thank you to everyone who participated.
View:
His ascertion could be factual!
Posted by: Jay Randal on Jan 28, 2009 12:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Palestinians have as much or more claim to the area now called Israel, than Jews from anywhere
else who have emigrated there. Israelis are going to have to yield to a one state solution for Palestine, just like white citizens of South Africa had to do. The sooner this happens the better, plus the fascists in Israel like Bibi and Lieberman would be forced to depart into exile.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Jews and Palestinians both have their roots in the land
Posted by: Jennie on Jan 28, 2009 1:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Genetic studies of the male (y) chromosome have shown that most Jews (whre ever they come from) have largly similar y chromosomes. The exception to this seems to be Ethiopian Jews who more closely resemble the surrounding Ethiopian population. Palestinian and Syrian men hve very similar y chromosome DNA indicating a common ancestry for all three groups in the area. It would not seem too much of a stretch to assume that these people are the decendants of the people called Caananite in the Bible. The DNA on the y chromosome of other surrounding people, eg Lebanese and Jordanian, is different from the Palestinian/Jewish/Syrian DNA.
The promise of the land of Caanan to Abraham in the common scriptures of Judaism and Christianity was used by both Jewish Zionists and various european nations in the infant UN to promote the formation of the Jewish state of Israel in the aftermath of the abomination of the holocaust visited on european Jews by the Nazis. It should be remembered that:
1) The Jewish scriptures are written by and for Jews usually long after the events described ie. there is no actual real estate contract signed by Abraham & God.
2) A careful reading of the Bible will indicate that the Israelites were never able to exclude all the other inhabitants of Cannan from the land.
3) The Jews of today are at the most decended from 2 and a half of the original Israelite tribes included in the alledged promise.
4) There were large Jewish communities outside Palestine when the Romans evicted the trouble-makers. Jews who had not joined in the rebellion against Rome were not expelled and there was a largish population of Jews in Palestine until the Crusaders arrived slaughtering both Jews and Moslems. Many surviving Jews probably fled then to Jewish communities elsewhere. Surviving Palestinians, Moslem & Christian, having no communities elsewhere undoubtably stayed put, as they did throughout former and subsequent conquests of Palestine by Egyptians, babylonians, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabians, Turks and the British.
5) The creation of Israel, in 1948, may have been as much about reducing the number of Jewish refugees Tha places such as the UK and the USA had to deal with as it was about being kind to the Jews. I frankly wonder if some of the American/European support for Israel today is in the nature of "support them over there so we don't have to put up with them here"

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» ad hominem tu quoque Posted by: abiogenesis35
Are ashkenazi (Khazar) jews part of the land claim also?
Posted by: chance garden on Jan 28, 2009 1:08 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As for Jewish history...Doesn't Judism depend so heavily on egyptian and other middle-eastern religious sources, so as to render it entirely indistinct without them...Wasn't Moses eygptian? I believe there is nothing original about Judism, especially it's monotheistic deity, which seems to just copy and repackage an egyptian monotheistic idolatry...I tend to agree that there was no originally distinct jewish people, and that their religion is a cultural fabrication just like the others..Even america is a cultural fabrication...Who cares what stories are advanced claiming who came from whom and who is descended from this messenger or that...

...the whole shebang rolls on a great fiction of "the higher power" or whatever they want to call it...these claims are only as good as their gods...and if their gods are false so are all the trappings of their religions...it time to move beyond the gods...beyond the opinions of those who claim that we are descended from them or blessed or damned by them...before we are buried by the terrors of our own creations...

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» This is a great post Posted by: PrinceRobert
» RE: Sounds like a Beatles song. Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: This is a great post Posted by: Hechicera
» Akhenaten monotheism Posted by: chance garden
Zand's book is irrelevant because...
Posted by: kogwonton on Jan 28, 2009 1:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...these questions have always been valid regardless whether or not the diaspora happened.

Zand's book is capable of making Zionists and Christians have fits. It can make their eyeballs bulge and the blood vessels in their faces burst. It can make holy men spew obscenity like Satan himself.

But...

If we accept Israel's biblical history at face value, or literally, as many western evangelical Christians do, it is beyond dispute that Israel took the land of Canaan by force, displaced or killed the people that lived there (genocide), and allegedly did so at the command of God. The question of whether Judaism is a matter of genetics or faith is not asked, and yet the Bible itself mentions the conversion of non-jews in several books. The book of Ruth, who was a Moabite who married a jewish man, raises this question, as does the story of King David and Bathsheba, and the subsequent murder of her husband in order to cover their adultery. The original husband of Bathsheba was not born a jew, but was a Hittite convert.

We have two peoples laying claim to the same piece of land, and all one side has to prove their case is a severely questionable 'deed' (the bible), which is so tattered and ancient (and possibly forged) it is impossible to validate. This same deed outlines the God-sanctioned genocide with which the land was taken from even eariler inhabitants. Meanwhile the inhabitants which are now being displaced and exterminated have the proof of having possessed the land for the last two millenia. Compare these to the legal and moral claims of other peoples, such as native Americans to THEIR lands, and it becomes crystal clear who has a more proven and valid legal case. Imagine if the U.S. were told by the World Court that they had to give back all that land to its original inhabitants? Fat chance.

And finally we have a situation in which Israel is attempting to do exactly what was done to them in the holocaust. They are trying to forge a culturally and genetically pure homeland, in which only those of a single faith and bloodline have rights. They are exterminating a whole people just as Hitler tried to do, and just as the U.S. nearly did in its treatment of Native Americans. This is not democracy in any shape or form. "Jewish democracy" is a misnomer. It is an insult to intelligence.

Israel needs to be morally consistent, if not with international law then with their own bibles. They need to figure out whether being a Jew is a matter of faith or of blood. They also need to re-examine whether God will bless them for genocide, or for justice and mercy. They can't have both. We cannot afford to fight wars on such shaky legal claims as whether or not the bible is an acceptable deed to that land. Are the courts now going to accept such a thing? Are nations now in the business of taking care of God's business? Democracy was created specifically to allow men to make good and just decisions in the absence of perfect understanding, or in the absence of God. Even now, should we not err on the side of justice and mercy for all, blind to religion or race, at least till God Himself comes down here and figures all this out for himself? Or do Abrahamic peoples believe God will bless them only when their brothers and their brothers' children are all dead?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Holocaust? Posted by: caducus
» Well...Plopped it Posted by: brunowe
» No it wasnt Posted by: brunowe
» RE: No it wasnt Posted by: brunowe
» Duh yourself Posted by: brunowe
» For heavens sake Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: Holocaust? Posted by: abletuno1
» where angels fear to tread Posted by: Drclaw
old wine new bottle
Posted by: isafakir on Jan 28, 2009 1:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
it's old news. but in a new bottle of jews vs. palestines. For the Love of God, What about Catholic Palestinians, Samaritans, Communists, Orthodox Christian: Syriac and Greek and Egyptian Orthodox Christians, and non Jew and non Arab Palestinians, Druze, not to speak of gay activists, Pentecostals, and only GOD knows what who all live there, and have lived there going all the way back to the dawn of humanity. Phonecians, Chaldeans, Canaanites. Some Crusaders. Slaves from Nabibia. the queen of sheba, Serbian nuns, Spanish kabalists, innumerable Florences of Arabia. It's not Super Sunday. It's not two sides. It's not two dozen sides. It's foreign powers, Russia France Saudi Arabia Iran Britain Halliburton Harriman-Bush binLaden pere fighting over oil. and the spoils literally of war.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: old wine new bottle Posted by: isafakir
The Old Jewish Book Of Fairy Tales
Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 28, 2009 1:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Free Your Mind.

It's all a very disturbing work of fiction with some reference to historical events combined with some seriously backwards and ridiculous nonsense.

The world is still suffering the product of this crazy set of fables and it's offspring. Just think, if everyone gave up the Jewish, Christian and Muslim faiths and all their BS claims, what could happen. People would kind of run out of reasons to hate, oppress, kill and otherwise harm each other.

I have set aside the mythical christian faith I was burdened (raised) in. Now it's your turn...

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: The Old Jewish Book Of Fairy Tales Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: ? Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: ? Posted by: kogwonton
» Couldn't have said it better. Posted by: thekidde
» That hits the nail on the head, and... Posted by: paulmagillsmith
It's ABOUT TIME!
Posted by: Setnakt on Jan 28, 2009 1:56 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've been saying something similar to this for YEARS. It's not "news", just no one wants to listen! Too many accept the crap from the Bible and Jewish books of fiction as if they were fact. The entire American Middle Eastern pollicy is based on a fable as believable and "fact-based" as is the Wizard of Oz, but you can't tell anyone that or the mass-murdering FAR worse than any Nazi ever dreamed of being Zionists and their near-total control of the media will (mis)label you a "anti-semite" and "racist", as if a religion &/or culture were a "race"! What's the Christian "race" or Asian "religion" then? Give me a freaking break! And slaves in Egypt MY ASS! Moses was Pharaoh Akhenaton IV, Egyptian royalty, his followers were Egyptian royalty who were thrown out of Egypt for treason and crimes against the people of Egypt who's name the Jew thugs of today slander in their (again) Nazi-like historical revisionism LIES. There was never an Abraham, nor any Jew/Hebrew before Akhenaton/Moses, do some damn research. Hint: the Bible is not research or a history book it's FICTION!

[Note: I do not read any replys here as most of the replyers are juvinale idiots and trolls only here to cause trouble~NO THANKS, GET A LIFE. I mention this so you know if you reply and attack me as I know many will (especially Zionist scum) I will not be wasting a second on vermin such as yourself, so go for it and scream at yourselves, I will not be listening. Just remember, scream and insult all you like, that and all your lies and farie tales can never change actual history. And as a decendant of the ancient Egyptian people, I, my children, and hundreds more like us who you FAILED to murder and silence know the truth and will carry it and it's proof tell you are extient and the world tired of your lies]

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: It's ABOUT TIME! Posted by: kogwonton
» RE: It's ABOUT TIME! Posted by: photon's feather
» Also perplexed Posted by: bccmeteorites
» RE: It's ABOUT TIME! Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: It's ABOUT TIME! Posted by: Daedalus
Black Box
Posted by: RevolutionNet on Jan 28, 2009 1:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How do you say "Fatwa" in Hebrew?


FREE AMERICA

REVOLUTIONARY (DIRECT) DEMOCRACY

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Forget race, focus on birthright
Posted by: Julian on Jan 28, 2009 2:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those two million people born there have the right of birth. Those four million people kept out by forcible exile have the right of birth or recent (say a century at most)direct descent from identifiable individuals with birthright. Those four million with no connection by birth have no such a right. Race is not a connection, and ascribing rights to it is racism.

The just solution - the only just solution - is embodied in RETURN. Exiles to be allowed to return to their homeland and be given voting papers even if they elect to stay outside. Foreign settlers with no birth connection be made to return to THEIR homelands, and lose the vote.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Zand is a nightmare for Big Oil-Big Cartel Bank Zionists (Jewish or Not)
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Jan 28, 2009 2:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion has been used to carry water for every propaganda regime since
before dupe slaves were brainwashed to believe Pharaohs were gods on earth.

The rituals may be colorful but organized religion is as much a con as the "Federal Reserve" Corp and what happened on 9/11 into phony 9/11 "war on terror".

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Diaspora of Rationality
Posted by: marxalot on Jan 28, 2009 3:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The one thing that certainly has been driven from the Holy Land is rationality. It has been displaced by passion. News that the Zionist ideal may be a fiction will likely be met with:

a) Reason
b) Passion

Thank you for playing.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

What about the Babylonians?
Posted by: Erik1968 on Jan 28, 2009 3:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't there hard historical evidence for the Babylonian diaspora? I never believed the stories about the Pharoah, I always assumed they were made up as an allegory for the Babylonian conquest.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

We all share the same DNA
Posted by: weathered on Jan 28, 2009 3:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but for few cells we're remarkably different.

Fall in Love w/your African Mother & Father or fear your neighbor.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: We all share the same DNA Posted by: John Sawyer
» RE: We all share the same DNA Posted by: weathered
» RE: an African religion Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» That's not true! Posted by: Bliss Doubt
Genetic studies
Posted by: Exile65 on Jan 28, 2009 3:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While more genetic data are needed, and studies are based on relatively small amounts of data due to the cost of sequencing, those that have been done seem to indicate that today's Jews and Palestinians derive from a common stock. There is around 20% admixture from neighboring peoples in both gene pools (Arab invaders in the case of the Palestinians, Europeans in the case of European Jews), but the basis for both populations are rooted in the same origin.

Logically this would be the Hebrews and other tribes which lived in the Palestine region from Iron Age times. Zand's argument that the Jews were not expelled en masse in Roman times is logical, probably some elites and city dwellers were exiled or taken away as slaves after unsuccessful revolts, but the bulk of the agricultural population would have stayed in place through the centuries.

There has always been a tension in Jewish history between conservative followers of the official religion, and those Hebrews who strayed or assimilated to other practices (golden calf, anyone?). The Jewish nation originated with those Hebrews who lived in the kingdom of Judah (representing only 2 of the original 12 tribes) during the Iron Age, centralized around Jerusalem and its temple. Part of the ancient Hebrews would have become Samaritans after the split between Israel and Judah in the 10thC BC, some were Hellenized/Romanized in the classical period, then a large part would have become Christian, especially after the adoption of Christianity as the Roman state religion in the 4thC AD. Likewise, there were advantages to adopting Islam under the caliphate, which happened over time to a majority in all the nations conquered by the Arabs, leaving a minority of Christians and Jews who stuck to their fathers' cultural practices. Even the Jews of the classical period had given up their ancestral Hebrew to speak Aramaic, the language of the western Persian empire.

For those Jews who left their homeland, some as exiles or slaves, but others surely for economic reasons, trading, it was easier to maintain their distinct culture as exiles among alien people, who later actively excluded them socially. For those Hebrews left in the homeland, it was easier to assimilate to whatever the majority was doing, although a minority resisted. The trend to assimilation can be seen among Jews in the US today, and the trend throughout history is reflected in the strong cultural reaction in the bible against assimilation. If it never happened, nobody would have been against it.

This whole issue would be irrelevant, except that the "divine right" of the Hebrews to the land now known as Palestine (renamed from "Judea" by the Romans) is the dominant ideology behind the otherwise unusual idea that recent immigrants (most Israelis) have a stronger claim to their new land than the people who lived there, now known as "the Palestinians" (that term used to include Jews, Christians, Muslims, Samaritans).

Likewise, the Palestinians like to imagine that they are the descendants of the Philistines and Canaanites, as if these people somehow remained distinct from the Hebrews since the Iron age. They perhaps would not like to accept that they are Jews who converted first to Christianity and then to Islam, possibly for expedient reasons.

What we have is an exile group of Hebrews who preserved the old culture better than those who stayed at home. Regardless, they are two branches of the same people who "belong" in the Palestine region, with of course the ones who stayed all along having just as good a claim, if not better, to the land. We would all be better off if they recognized each other as part of the same people and shared their small country, rather than trying to characterize each other as inhuman or subhuman alien peoples who can never be accepted by the other.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» linguistic studies Posted by: aislinnluv
» conservative emigrants Posted by: Evelyn
» damn Posted by: Drclaw
» RE: Exile65 post Posted by: rach121
» RE: Exile65 post... Posted by: chance garden
Fairy Tales in a Modern Era
Posted by: BiscuitBoy on Jan 28, 2009 3:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's absurd that people still believe in these ancient Fairy Tales. The prophet speaks: "Hey, guess what? I have good news and better news! The good news is, God has selected a chosen people! The better news is, we're it!" How convenient! I'd be much more apt to believe this nonsense if the scenario went something like this: "I have good news and bad news. God has selected a chosen people, but it's not us, it's the South Moluccans" (or whomever). If we're going to believe in fairy Tales, let's chose some that are less violent, less bigotted, and more environmentally friendly, like Native American creation myths.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Fable Based Initiative Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: rapid cooling? Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Bestseller
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jan 28, 2009 3:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The idea of having a right to a particular chunk of land based on history, religion, or oppression is ridiculous. Nobody can prove any of that, and it doesn't matter. How many of us have the luxury of living in a place that's perfectly aligned with our religion, ethnicity, etc.?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» please advise me Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: Bestseller Posted by: VZEQICVA
Great article by Joshua
Posted by: True2Blue on Jan 28, 2009 4:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As usual, it's all there. Now if only we could get it on the six o'clock news.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Great article by Joshua Posted by: weathered
» RE: Great article by Joshua Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Great article by Joshua Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Zand's thesis has no reference to hard genetic science
Posted by: Jasonix on Jan 28, 2009 5:00 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Genetic studies prove that modern Jews have consistent genetic markers that unite them as a people, and strongly supports their Palestinian origin. Judaism does accept converts and it's obvious that some people did convert (there are black Jews from Ethiopian, for example, and I doubt Jesus had many red-headed peers), but not nearly as many as Zand suggests. Zand is wrong, and hard science proves it.

That doesn't mean, however, that Israel has the right to ethnically cleanse the entire land, or that Israel should have a favored religion over others. If the Native Americans built up an army and tried to re-take America, we'd crush them without hesitation, appalled that someone would murder people in the present to try to make up for some past injustice.

But Zand's thesis is implausible in light of modern science. Sorry to tell you.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Cl-Click BLAO! Posted by: Scientz
» RE: some links Posted by: sekfetenmet
» RE: some links Posted by: GollyGee
seazen
Posted by: seazen on Jan 28, 2009 5:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kudos to the authors and to the bulk of the contributors here. This whole string of comments should be published/distributed in hopes of adding at least a hint of intelligence and rational thought into the whole Middle Eastern discussion. The national media and our politicians are too lazy or dishonest to examine the true history of this region and its history and the result is the highly explosive situation we have today driven by sustained battles to serve economic, political and religious (institutional) ambitions.

American is suffering from a severe case of willing ignorance regarding this and even such basic matters as the state our economy or the environment. The real question is - what can be done to elevate the national discourse to the level of this thread? Or are we left with Limbaugh, OReilly, Hannity, etc to explain it all to the American populace?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Thank you Posted by: Sister_Lauren
he defined democracy
Posted by: chrysalis124812 on Jan 28, 2009 5:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Finally a framework that explains the mid-east conflict logically! I have often wondered how Israel could claim to be democratic, or sometimes the United States for that matter. You know, the bit about separation of church and state. If you don't think the US is a theocracy, look close at some money. I for starters, would prefer the Presidential oath of office be taken on the Constitution. As time goes on if people keep demanding it, we will get closer and closer to true democracy. May that process begin in Israel-Palestine soon and bring healing to all those beleaugered people.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: democracy - a native product Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Realities
Posted by: John Sawyer on Jan 28, 2009 5:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sure, in an ideal world, all parties would simply stop believing in fairy tales, or real tales that they think grant them rights they may not have, but we have to be realistic and accept that most Israelis will continue to be Jews, and most Palestinians will continue to be Muslims, and work with that assumption.

Regardless of what's true with all the other issues raised here, most citizens of Israel (or at least the ones that really decide things), at least for a while longer, would still argue the basic fact that ancient Israel had no Muslims in it at all, and so modern Israel should have very few of them now. That would also seem to make irrelevant, to the current nation of Israel, the argument for counting, as "genetically Jewish", many of the non-Jews who were living in the area at the time the UN established Israel--those people currently aren't of the Jewish faith, and aren't likely to convert, and so the current structure of the nation of Israel doesn't include them. The current nation of Israel doesn't see itself as having been established to recreate a new version of the mix of religions that may have existed at any time during the ancient nation of Israel, especially Muslims, who didn't exist at any time during ancient Israel's existence.

So the current nation of Israel isn't likely to see Muslims living in Israel, Gaza, etc. as "like them" enough to tear down the walls and grant equal citizenship--at least not in the immediate future. Nor do I think many Muslims would like any efforts to make them into Muslim citizens of Israel--they see themselves as Palestinians. If Israel does grant them full citizenship of any sort, it will have to be mostly because they simply should, and see what they do with it, though there's the little issue of the fighting between the two sides that began soon after 1945, when they were all occupying many of the same lands, that caused Israel to sequester the Palestinians in the first place. Israel will have a hard time figuring out how to modify itself to allow some new version of the older historical reality of (sometimes) peacefully living with non-Jews in its midst.

As others point out here, Zand's ideas are not new. But sometimes even an old idea eventually wins out. As proof is the fact that the old idea that the land is only for the Jews, finally won again in 1945. Time will tell if acknowledgement of other historical and current realities modify, or flesh out, that single idea.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

YES
Posted by: caducus on Jan 28, 2009 5:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, there is hard evidence for the Babylonian Diaspora. And the Greek Diaspora. and the Roman Diaspora. Thank God the Muslims came in afterward and stopped killing the Jews like the pagans and Christians had.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

A note to Josh Holland
Posted by: caducus on Jan 28, 2009 5:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
a tiny bit of info in your article needs tweaking: Passover is the retelling of the Jewish Exodus from Egypt, not the Diaspora. That story is told in the minor Jewish holiday of Hannukah (only in the modern US has Hannukah come to resemble a "big" holiday, due to it's proximity to Christmas).

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: A note to Josh Holland Posted by: Jeffski
» Let's Shall Posted by: caducus
» RE: A note to Josh Holland Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: A note to Josh Holland Posted by: Sojourner
HUMAN RELUCTANCE TO CHANGE "FIXED" RECORDED HISTORY
Posted by: drricklippin on Jan 28, 2009 6:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Josh Holland- Great and courageous piece

There is generally a human reluctance to accept a major shift in basic historic assumptions we have grown up with.

It is too shocking to the cental nervous systems of most people- something neuroscientists call bounded rationality which they say is "neuroprotective" because it prevents us from becoming overwhelmed.

But if history becomes too bounded and never challenged it can prevent us from solving seemingly intractable problems like the Israel/Palestine tragedy

I welcome this book and the article you wrote becuase, quite frankly, we are stuck without major new breakthrough ideas

I intend to circulate your piece widely.

Thanks so much,

Be Well,

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

It Does Not Beg the Question
Posted by: jonathan2 on Jan 28, 2009 6:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To beg the question is a logical fallacy of assuming the truth of what one sets out to prove.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: It Does Not Beg the Question Posted by: isnamthere
» Thank you! Posted by: T0M
This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
I have quoting Shlomo Sand for a while...Alternet finally catches up
Posted by: MeyravLevine on Jan 28, 2009 6:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even if we assume that Askenazis are Semitic people, descendents of Jews from Palestine, how do Zionists justify converting Peruvian Incas and Indians from Manipur and settling them in West Bank and rest of Palestine?

Palestinians don't have a right to return but Khazars can troll the world and import native Indians to settle the "promised land"?

WTF!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Christian Zionists
Posted by: Evelyn on Jan 28, 2009 6:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem in the US (and thus the world's problem) is that a large part of American evangelical Christians takes the idea of the Bible as giving Jews the right to Greater Israel far more seriously than even Israelis do. Listen to John Hagee, for example. He was excoriated for saying that Hitler was part of God's plan to restore the Jews to Israel. But his version of Zionism, though ultimately about getting Jesus to come back to earth, is more extreme than most Jews' ideas. American politics is held hostage not only by a minority of American Jews who support Israel, but also by a far larger group of American Christians who want to see Jesus return and rule over an earthly kingdom that stretches from the Egypt to the Euphrates.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Listen to John Hagee Posted by: Bliss Doubt
IRIS89!!! Where are you??
Posted by: Baenz on Jan 28, 2009 6:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your "theories" are dismantled, the real estate claim crumbles and so many more items ... and all of this without you!

I expected to see your postings all over! Having not heard a whisper from you makes me wonder and worried - are you well?

B.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Baenzzzzzzzz..... Posted by: Gisele
» RE: IRIS89!!! Where are you?? Posted by: andrushka
» RE: IRIS89!!! Where are you?? Posted by: wisegalah
Palestinians had no diaspora but the XIXth CE. Redrawing the strategy to swallow whole Palestine?
Posted by: Artra on Jan 28, 2009 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Misleading historical points of departure, with wrong statements lead to oldstrategy of "only one state", with two castes, Zionist on top:
"... instead of being a country in which Jews and Arabs are guaranteed equal protection -- equal protection under the laws of a state whose legitimacy would never again be open to question..."

1) PALESTINIANS DO NOT BASE THEIR CAUSE ON RELIGION, this is a falacy from Joshua Holland: "And if both groups in fact share common biblical ties,..." "Both groups"(?) lay claim to the same crust of earth, both have faced historic repression and displacement". PALESTINIANS ARE THE ONLY ONES FACING ONLY ONE RECENT DISPLACEMENT AND THEY ARE NOT "CLAIMING" ANY CRUST OF LAND, THEY ARE RESISTING OCCUPATION.

2) Who and Why is giving Zionists a legal --not to even argue the legitimate-- international right on Palestine, because they developed a national identity?:
"whether the Jewish people share ,..., a common national identity has in fact developed over the centuries".

As far as Shlomo Zand's book concerns, there are other even stronger shocking arguments against the "biblical claim", before him:

"The myth of the Pentateuch
... The exodus did not exist ... the Pentateuch was a Joshua [son of the pagan king Amon] Kingdom late creation (630 BCE), aiming to propagate the ideology and needs of that kingdom".
Israel Finkelstein, director of the Institute of Archaeology Tel Aviv University, interview, Buenos Aires, 25/6/06.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Judaism = Race?
Posted by: Baenz on Jan 28, 2009 7:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having read the postings - especially those with respect to DNA and other proofs of Jews being a race - ... I have said it before but I think it's appropriate to repeat it:

Only Adolf Hitler and the Zionists have ever attempted to proof that Jews are a race. Both are in my opinion despicable because of their superiority / supremacy ideologies.

One simply cannot convert to a race - end of the story.

I think all the religions are great for the people believing in any one of them, taking the good teachings of it and living by its rules - as long as it doesn't inflict on third parties who happen NOT to believe in the same religion.

Religion is a private matter and should stay a private matter.

For us human beings to live together in "peace" (I'll see it one day I hope!) we have all agreed to the International Laws and to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

These two "books" should guide our living together - and nobody should be forced to believe that God was a real estate broker ...

B.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Sorry, wrong in part Posted by: Baenz
wow..Jews are Arabs.
Posted by: 2thepoint on Jan 28, 2009 7:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode I saw back in the 60's . Two guys (each black on one side and white on the other - a very 60's message) were chasing one another around the universe forever trying to kill each other.

When they were captured and asked by "Captain Kirk" why they hated each other so much - they said isn't it obvious.. he's black on the left side, I'm black on the right side.

Jews are Arabs and Arabs are jews. I suspect a DNA analysis will not be able to determine the Arab or the jew. The strange thing is we all probably came from Africa and all are the same!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» adam and eve, my ass... Posted by: veggiegrrrl
Zand isn't the only scholar acerting this theme......
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Jan 28, 2009 8:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In "The African Origin of Modern Judaism: From Hebrews to Jews" the author essentially asserts that modern day Jews are not the people that left the land of Israel. These modern "Jews" are the remnants of the few Hebrews that went into the Caucasus Mountain range and amalgamated with the people that were living there, most of these people converted to Judaism.

Most of the Jews that have returned to Israel since WWII are of the Ashkenazi sect, they speak Yiddish, and their ancestors have been buried throughout Europe and Russia for the last 2,000 years! This does not make them the original Hebrew people! Most of what we call the "Palestinian/Syrian/Lebanese people" are probably the descendants of the "original Hebrews", that converted to Islam!

Far from being persecuted, the Jews enjoyed many liberties during the Islamic invasions of Spain and North Africa. They flourished, were allowed to practice their religion, and worked well under the people known as the "Moors"! It wasn't until Moorish rule was defeated by Queen Isabella in 1490's that the Jews once again became a "persecuted" people!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

This is a scientifically testable hypothesis
Posted by: pgj1949 on Jan 28, 2009 8:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although Prof. Zand's hypothesis seems to be discussed in terms of the historical record, the seriousness of the relationship between Jewish Israelis and Palestinians merits more analysis. His hypothesis would be subject to genomic analysis of the relationship between Jewish Israelis, Europeans, Africans, Arabs, and Palestinians.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

IT'S ABOUT A CLOSER LOOK
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jan 28, 2009 8:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not possible for anything to be around for over 5 thousand years and escape scrutiny. It's the nature of people to want to examine beliefs and take a closer look at everything. That's just the way we are. The roots of most religions rely on faith. While it can be a comfort to many, it doesn't guell the curiousity that many of us have. Problem is, that none of it can be proved. All religions are steeped in mystery that prefers to be left undisturbed. The message of this article is sure to create a stir. But it shouldn't come as any surprise that the world is weary of the violence necessary to protect this ancient mystery from a closer look. But it's time. Thanks, ANNA

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

this is so...
Posted by: maxfactor on Jan 28, 2009 8:54 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...antisemitic!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: this is so... Posted by: TERRIROBSON
» RE: this is so... Posted by: laoma
Zand is right
Posted by: TERRIROBSON on Jan 28, 2009 8:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having done some research on my own out of curiosity, it started with two warring factions of Hebrews in the Caanite area,one faction stayed and they became the current Palestinians who are of Hebrew and Arab descent. He could also have mentioned that all these wars in Iraq and elsewhere have been to wipe out any historical facts that would undermine this Zionist made up story,as archeology is the only way to prove anything,and if you destroy your neighbours history then all that is left is the one you invent

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

It Doesn't Matter
Posted by: Liberty G on Jan 28, 2009 9:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who lived where when, and their racial or religious, or genetic identification isn't what is important.

We'll never solve all the suffering and the fighting and destruction and dying until we accept the truth - we are all human, all resident of this earth, and our welfare is mutual.

There will be no peace, safety or comfort for any in the troubled areas of the earth until they stop trying to settle old grievances and wrest resources away from others. Instead, the need is to work together to produce and share in that which is needed to sustain life, for the good of all.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» AMEN Posted by: Christian Southern Liberal
and he does it TWICE--BEGS THE QUESTION
Posted by: brer on Jan 28, 2009 9:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
TWO TIMES you use it incorrectly.
Please stop using that phrase.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» OK Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: And OK Posted by: Crazy H
» Beautiful! Posted by: T0M
Wrong Question and Irrelevant
Posted by: YHShVH on Jan 28, 2009 10:28 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who came to Palestine after WWII and the holocaust did so because they were persecuted for their beliefs, not for their race. Many of their relations had converted and were not prosecuted.

The persecutors included many so-called Christians (witness the photos of Roman Catholic bishops saluting Hitler) and Muslims (who cooperated with the Nazis in the Balkans and in Palestine).

Both Christianity and Islam claim to have appropriated the Judaic G-d and thus find it appropriate to discriminate against and slaughter Jews. It is part of their doctrine. Read "Constantine's Sword" and the Koran.

So, to say that the Palestinians have nothing against the Jews overlooks the fact that many of them are practicing Muslims who believe in a book that calls Jews "apes and pigs" and celebrates Mohammed for putting thousands of Jews to the sword, not to mention Hamas and other such political organizations whose charters call for destroying Israel and whose textbooks are filled with bigotry and hate.

When the Palestinians controlled the Old City, the Jews were not allowed to enter and worship. The idea of letting such anti-Semites control this area through population numbers is out of the question. It would be the equivalent of sending the boats back to Europe in WWII, or unleasing Mohammed and his sword.

The rocket attacks from Gaza, or the suicide bombings, or the random assassination of identifiable Jews in Israel, Europe, and wherever else, are not simply retaliations for what has happened and what is going on in the Levant; they are part of a religious war with it origins in the adoption of Christianity by the Holy Roman Empire and the philosophical underpinnings of Islam.

All three religions claim exclusivity: "Mohammed is the last prophet," "Only through Jesus," and the Jews are "the chosen people." They are all using different words to worship the same unidentifiable source. See www.SolomonsProof.com.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

My DNA says...
Posted by: kurt marin on Jan 28, 2009 10:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My ancestors came from western Norway, I think I'll go claim my ancestral home there for a summer get away, it's my right isn't it? I have DNA proof and even actual copies of birth certificates of my paternal ancestors!! Come to think of it a nice country house outside Prague would be nice (that's the mom side). Hey, her DNA, per a National Geographic test, says her ancestors lived in the Levant about 10,000 years ago before moving to the Caucasus region - hey, I have a claim to Israel by that logic, and mine beats either by centuries! I think I should go claim what I am rightfully owed, a nice pied a terre in Tel Aviv (I hear the night life is hot)...

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

This land is MY land
Posted by: Crazy H on Jan 28, 2009 10:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a member of The First Church of the Divine Solipsist, I own Israel. I've even got a holey piece of paper that says so.

Therefore, I've got the right to kill any heretic, infidel, or unbeliever squatting on my property.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

the right of Return?
Posted by: Amerikagulag on Jan 28, 2009 10:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One only need to read "The Bible Unearthed" to know that this claim has been made for a decade now by two renowned archaeologists, Finkelstein and Silberman. It's no surprise.

The Exodus never happened, no wandering in the desert, no parting the Red Sea, etc. etc. The "Book of the Law" was in all probability written by King Josiah in 750 BC, not Moses. In fact there there were probably at least 5 Moses'

The descendants of Jesus are the Palestinians.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

BIblical nonsense
Posted by: Amerikagulag on Jan 28, 2009 10:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and unless and until the bible is exposed to be the collection of fable, forgery, myth, fraud and outright LIE that it is, this nonsense will continue.

All 3 religions base themselves on a fable. That and wishful-thinking. God is not a member of any religion.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Power of myth
Posted by: Quasar on Jan 28, 2009 11:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joseph Campbell said that the conflict between Israel and the Palestinian people CANNOT change until the myths tied to the land change.

Zand has added some footnotes to these myths but these stroies are too entrenched in the land and the psyche of the people to make a difference I am afraid.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

What about the Christians?
Posted by: barefeet on Jan 28, 2009 12:05 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ah, yes! The hyphenated people (Judeo-CHRISTIANS) figure into this as well.

Since Judaism is having its coming out party as no more than total conspiratorial bullshit, what about the validity of Christianity?

Could it be that Christianity, which was invented by Jews, sold to the "rustics" by Jews - who only referred to themselves as Jews - and requires those new "Christians" to publicly worship Jews and indoctrinate their children to do the same in return for "pie in the sky,".......

Could that possibly mean that Christianity is simply more Jewish bullshit?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

This is a revelation?
Posted by: 876 on Jan 28, 2009 12:07 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Funny thing, Zand's thesis is what I assumed to be true all along. To me the revelation is that anyone ever believed these Europeans have anything to do with the Middle East.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Everyone having a good time?
Posted by: Joshua Holland on Jan 28, 2009 12:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Always a fun topic of discussion ;-)

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Zand's second assertion.... Posted by: chance garden
» RE: veryone having a good time? Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: veryone having a good time? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Everyone having a good time? Posted by: Bliss Doubt
It never fails.... in the face of implacable conflict eliminationism rears its head
Posted by: DaBear on Jan 28, 2009 12:52 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Competing land claims? No problem, just pretend the claimants (or at least one of them, and if they're Jews, then be sure to "git 'em") never existed.

geezis frack on a cracker, batman. Every last eliminationist ideal is horseshit. Just like pretending anglos didn't deliberately try to wipe out indigenous Turtle Islanders and Hitler didn't try to gas all the Jews. Hell, down under, those damned aboriginals were causing trouble? Just eliminate 'em.

When will we be free of this particularly rabid bent of mindlessness? The problems are hard enough without throwing, "you aren't a real person" into the shitstorm.

Bottom line: Palestinian Jews were there pre-1948 so were Palestinian muslims, Xtians/Druze, et al. One group had just endured a near extinction trauma and freaked out and beat the shit out of the Other. The horseshit has to stop and people better damned well get over themselves.

No one needs to spout this kinda shit, even if it were true, if only on some arcane academic level.

"That one doesn't look right to me, put them up against the wall... that one's a coon and that one's a Jew, who let all this riff-raff into the room?..." Pink Floyd.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» What a pathetic strawman Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: What a pathetic strawman Posted by: weathered
I have long believed . . .
Posted by: Scientz on Jan 28, 2009 12:59 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
. . . what Zand purports to be true.

Also, I think the best part of Josh's analysis is:

One can reasonably argue that this ancient myth of a Jewish nation exiled until its 20th century return is of little consequence; whether the Jewish people share a common genetic ancestry or are a far-flung collection of people who share the same faith, a common national identity has in fact developed over the centuries.

I also "reasonably argue" the preceding point.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

It's so much more sensational when you omit certain facts.
Posted by: RafiSimcha on Jan 28, 2009 1:02 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Facts that shake the foundation of your essay.

For instance, did you know that before Hamas became radicalized, that Arabic-speaking people enjoyed more freedom in Israel than anywhere else in the Arabic-speaking world? They were allowed to vote, go to universities, women could drive, and weren't required to wear the hijab [veil].

It was when Hamas/Jihad decided that Israel must be eliminated, and started blowing up kids in street cafes and at weddings, Israel did the only thing it could, seal off the infection.

Why is it that people who wish to get out of Gaza are not allowed into Arab countries?

Why don't filthy rich countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran help the Gazans out?

The answer is that allowing them to suffer is great PR for their Jihad. They are using the population of Gaza as human shields.

When Israel gave Gaza to the Arabic-speaking people living there, they promptly destroyed billions of dollars worth of infrastructure that was part of the gift.

People whining about 'Zionism' need to wake up to 'Jihadism' - a much bigger threat. There are approximately 13 million Jews in the world, and 1.3 BILLION Muslims. That's 1,000 Muslims for each Jew. Do the whiners think they'd prefer living in an Islamic Theocracy over a Jewish Democracy? State-sanctioned rape, or gefilte fish - which will it be?

Of course we all descended from common stock. But another fact you conveniently omit is that Jerusalem is mentioned countless times in the Psalms of David, dating from 1100 BC, and in Jewish prayers 3 times daily and more on Holy days recited since 900 BC, and yet it isn't mentioned anywhere at all in the Koran or the Hadith. Muslims do not mention Jerusalem or Palestine anywhere in their liturgy. Their claim to the land of Israel is recent, and purely political.

"As far as I can discern," Bartal wrote, "the book contains not even one idea that has not been presented" in previous historical studies. Segev added that "Zand did not invent [his] thesis; 30 years before the Declaration of Independence, it was espoused by David Ben-Gurion, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi and others."

The only thing new here is the naive, amateur commentator who wrote this piece and many of the respondents.

Please kids, don't have such strong opinions about things you don't understand!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Another paid troll wanders in Posted by: True2Blue
» You'd look good in a burka! Posted by: RafiSimcha
The only thing is, We're all HUMAN
Posted by: topview on Jan 28, 2009 1:34 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If it were not for religion, we would probably have never had any wars. If there is a god, would it/he/she ever wanted the human race to fight and kill each other over some belief? I don't think so.
Those individuals are so insecure in their lives they have to believe there is a god so they can have something that explains how we got here in the first place.
There is nothing that shows me that God is alive and leading the world in all this confusion, human suffering, and murder, and mayhem.
I personally believe we slithered from the ocean and have been trying to live in peace since, until the bullshit about some god showed up on the scene and created all the fictitious belief of these different religions.
Were all human and we should all try to respect each others existence on this planet.

The fairy tails will go on, and the humans will eventually destroy the only place we have to exist on. "EARTH" and no god is going to save it.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

some inconvenient history for Zionists
Posted by: realtruther on Jan 28, 2009 1:58 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What if the British had acted like Israel does in response to terrorism. Think Israel would exist today?

BRITAIN'S LIBERTIES CUT, WEEKLIES SAY; Reappearing After Crisis Ban, Journals of All Opinions See Threat to Press Freedom

By MALLORY BROWNE
New York Times

March 10, 1947, Monday

LONDON, March 9--The British Labor Government has been widely and seriously accused in the press this week-end of endangering Brititsh liberties. Reappearing after having been banned for two weeks to save fuel, weekly papers and magazines of all shades of political opinion accuse the Government of having played fast and loose with freedom of the press.


Banned for two weeks to save fuel... right? Well what happened during that ban?

16 DIE IN PALESTINE IN MAJOR UPSURGE OF TERRORIST ACTS

13 Perish in Jerusalem When Officers' Club Is Blown Up—2 Killed in Jeep Blast
MARTIAL LAW IN ONE ZONE
British Put City Jewish Area Under Military After Attacks Linked to Bevin's Talk

By CLIFTON DANIEL
Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.

JERUSALEM, March 1—-Answering British Foreign Secretary Bevin's words with bombs and bullets, the Jewish terrorists resumed their activity with a vengeance today. They caused the death of at least sixteen persons and injury to twenty-two, most of them hit by blast and gunfire when a British officers' club in Jerusalem was blown up.

Statutory martial law was declared by British authorities for the Jewish quarter of Measherim in Jerusalem, effective at 8 A. M. Sunday, said a United Press dispatch.
[The martial law proclamation, signed by High Commissioner Sir Alan Cunningham, provides for the "withdrawal of normal facilities of civil go
>SNIP<


Gee, what a timely "fuel shortage" for the Zionists, eh?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

This is an old issue. Arthur Koestler-a zionist-wrote of the Khazars, ancestors of modern Ashkenazim
Posted by: yellow on Jan 28, 2009 2:00 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Modern Yiddish speaking Jews from Central and Eastern Europe were said to descend from Khazars, a semi-nomadic Turkic group of tribes of the Russians Steppes and northern Caucasus. Sometime between the 7th and 10th centuries they converted to Judaism in order to maintain their independance from both the Christians to their immediate West (Byzantium) and the Muslims who were conquering to their Eastern position (Central Asia). Thus, according to Koestler, the decision for religious conversion was political. These tribes kept their faith as they migrated west into Russia and mixed with other Jewish groups who descended more directly from ancient Israelites.

The Khazar thesis is an old one. Many historians and demographers do not now think it is necessary to explain the explosion of Jewish population in Eastern Europe from the time of the Polish Partitions (about 1791) to the start of WWII (1939). The European Jewish population in 1791 was just under 2 million but by the 1880s had grown to about 9 million. At the close of WWI it grew again to about 10 million and by 1939 again to 12 million.

The real spurt in growth was seen over the course of the 19th century when increasingly heavy concentration in larger and larger towns from inter-urban migration due to industrialization and its impact on Jewish handicraft industries and petty trade in the rural areas. The Jewish working class grew as well as poverty among Jewish urban communities in Eastern Europe. Jews could not get jobs in newer, heavy industries in large industrial European cities and thus, sunk deeper into poverty as their old role in rural villages as innkeepers, money changers and lenders, handicrafts artisans and petty traders and peddlers was eclipsed with general trends in rural to urban migration. They eventually outmigrated to Western Europe, the UK, the US and parts of the UK Commonwealth. Between 1880 and 1924, over 4 million Jews left the continent of Europe with about 2.5 million going to the US alone. The European Jewish population continued to grow through birth rates.

Most European Jews descended from Jews who fled the Roman Empire in ancient times. Many Jewish colonies were established along the Rhine 300 years before the Germanic Tribes came from the North. By the 14th Century, several waves of crusaders had pushed the Jewish populations into Poland where they served as agricultural managers, distillers and innkeepers on the lands of the nobility who now sold grain to Western Europe due to the collapse of Feudalism there from the Black Plague. This is known as the second serfdom. From this point on Jews in the west, beginning in 1516 in Venice would be ghettoed until Napoleon in order to marginalize their role in the growing merchantile capitalist economies of western europe.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

more Jewish terrorism in 1947
Posted by: realtruther on Jan 28, 2009 2:00 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WIDE JEWISH AREAS IN PALESTINE RULED BY MARTIAL LAW
238,000 Isolated as Penalty
for Refusal to Aid British in Hunting Terrorists
2 MORE SOLDIERS INJURED
6,000 Placed at Tel Aviv to Search for Perpetrators of Blasts in Which 20 Died

By CLIFTON DANIEL
Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.

JERUSALEM, March 2—More than a third of Palestine's Jewish population was put under statutory martial law today.

This action was taken as a pen to assist the British in apprehending the terrorists who caused the death of twenty pe'rsons and injury to twenty-six others in a coordinated series of attacks yesterday. In addition, two British soldiers were injured when a mine blew up a military truck near Hadera today.

Six thousand troops were unofficially reported to be waiting in the Tel Aviv area to begin an intensive search for the" terrorists. As a result of the strict house curfew attending the martial lawproclamation, life was paralyzed in Jerusalem's most thickly populated Jewish quarter and in the all-Jewish metropolitan district of Tel Aviv and i ts satellite towns. I t was estimated that 238,210 persons were confined behind closed doors and windows.

Area Is Cut Off

This area will be sealed off Maj. Gen. R. N. Gale, military commander of the Tel Aviv martia law area, said. "There will be no movement from or into the area. No cable or telephone facilities will be allowed."

The martial law areas have been, entirely ringed by troops, who have erected barbed-wire barriers a t a l l exits and established machine-gun posts. The area encompassed by martial law in Tel Aviv i s approximately three miles by seven. [In addition, a coastal strip twenty miles north of the city is under allmilitary rule, other sources reported.] The curfew imposed on t he Jewish quarter of northern Jerusalem, when it was placed under martial law a t midnight will remain in effect thirty-four hours. Thereafter the population will get a daily three-hour shopping period. I t has not been announced when the Tel Aviv curfew will be lifted.

Civil Government Superseded

The communique of t he Palestine Government announcing the imposition of martial law on Ramat Gan, Benei Beraq and P e t a h Tiqva in addition to Tel Aviv, a t 1 P . M. declared the measure was a "result of the lack of cooperation against bloodshed and terrorism" on the par t of the Jewish Agency for Palestine and the Jewish National Council [Vaad Leumi], which had been invited a month ago to cooperate with the Government. The effect of the order will be to withdraw the normal facilities of civil government from the population.
[The main objective of the martial law decree, General Gale said, according to an Associated Press dispatch, is to "paralyze and eradicate" the Stern group and Irgun Zvai Leumi, Jewish terrorist groups.]

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

These posts have been needed a long time...
Posted by: cornsilk on Jan 28, 2009 2:37 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is much to despair about -- media blackouts, genocides, universal confusion, etc.

Any time minds come together or books of examination get written, articles like this one get posted, it's good.

We need the truth. Truth can take a lot of hammering on, it just needs a venue. This is a blessing.

We should be thanking each other for caring enough to have thought about it and posted about it.

I thank you.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Does Anyone find offensive that while millions of Jews were murdered in Europe and the world did...
Posted by: yellow on Jan 28, 2009 2:50 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
nothing, idiots on this blog are still talking about this 11th hour run to Palestine, a last ditch effort to save the surviving remnant of Jewish refugees of Europe, an example of "Jewish exclusivity?" Only uttly ignorant bigots are capable of this kind of stupidity. There is ample documentation that Jewish rescue and relief organizations from 1933 to 1948 attempted with little or no success to get the Western Powers to take Jewish refugees. They were denied access even when it was in every way feasible and for the US and UK to take these refugees. Even the stringent immigration quotas for the countries of Europe from where most Jews came were dramatically underfilled and still not even temporary visas would be allowed these people by the US State Department.

The literature on the subject is vast. Thousands of Jews who reached neutral territory were turned back to be deported to Auschwitz. This was true of Jews who reached southern France, Spain, Switzerland and other places who were turned back because they could not get visas to go to the Western countries despite signed affidavits of support that they would be cared for by international Jewish Charities.

In the aftermath of WWII, only 160,000 of the more than 400,000 Jews that survived the war in Europe were allowed into the US. Canada and the UK took almost none. The Hope that Palestine would take 100,000 was denied by the British military in Palestine. Over 50,000 Jewish refugees were placed in uninhabitable stockades in Cypress until 1948. Thousands more were interned at a stockade called Athlit south of Haifa were brutal treatment was meeted out by the British guards. This was the reason for the so called Jewish terrorism in 1947 by the Irgun in destroying the British headquarters at the King David Hotel. Over 2,500 Palestinian Jews were interned without trial for helping their fellow Jews escape to Palestine. The British were warned four times and refused to move. In 1979, this was officially acknowledged by the British Parlaiment.

Naturally, world sympathies were with the beleaguered Jews!! Let's tell both sides of history on Alternet.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Zand's 2nd assertion...
Posted by: chance garden on Jan 28, 2009 3:11 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...Zand's second assertion. He argues that the story of the Jewish nation -- the transformation of the Jewish people from a group with a shared cultural identity and religious faith into a vanquished "people" -- was a relatively recent invention, hatched in the 19th century by Zionist scholars and advanced by the Israeli academic establishment. It was, argues Zand, an intellectual conspiracy of sorts. Segev says, "It's all fiction and myth that served as an excuse for the establishment of the State of Israel."

1) Assume that the above quote IS the case, especially the part, ..."
hatched in the 19th century by Zionist scholars"

Just who were those Zionist scholars?

Also, what was the role of Freemasonry and the Grand Orient lodges...then B'nai B'rith...Isn't BB a quasi-masonic organization? Where would freemasonry be without the fables of the old testament and solomon's temple...Isn't ...""It's all fiction and myth that served as an excuse for the establishment of the State of Israel."....the FICTION AND MYTH part...isn't that all Just Freemasonic and "Jewish Mystic" FACT AND FICTION? Wouldn't that explain something?

After all, Even Voltaire, mason (deist/atheist) though he was, believed in the Diety for the express reason that he feared the masses and that any doctrine that might scare the populace into believing that --you'd better behave because God is watching you (all-seeing eye)and if you screw up He will punish you...so you'd better say your prayers to HIM daily....He Voltaire, even believed in this kind of God....

I wonder what would happen if all the millions of christians, jews, and muslims suddenly understood that they had been "led astray" all these years? God really isn't real and these beliefs are just stories and all....Ya think all dem folks are going to be happy when they finally understand the truth? No wonder Voltaire feared the masses? Maybe I should convert also?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Help please!!
Posted by: Baenz on Jan 28, 2009 3:30 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One question is boggling my mind:

Having read all the evidence of the “Jewish” gene – if I decide to convert to Judaism how do I change my genes in order to fit the bill?

Thank you for any meaningsful answer(s),

B.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Help please!! Posted by: H.Dermish
» That doesn't fly Posted by: Baenz
» RE: That doesn't fly Posted by: H.Dermish
This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
Why this is irrelevent
Posted by: hotdog on Jan 28, 2009 3:52 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
for two primary reasons:
1) Anti-semites don't care. The next Hitler (g-d forbid) will not read this book or care whether Jews are a religion or a race. He will only want to exterminate them.

2) The author forgets that the creation of Israel was largely the act of European/Western nations cognizant of their own history of anti-semitism (see #1) and operating from some mixture of guilt and altruism to attempt to take advantage of the zionist movement to make amends (rid themselves of numerous refugees). It was a centuries old aspect of European imperialism to conveniently ignore the native population of an area they had their sights on regardless of the pedigree of the Palestinians or those elsewhere.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Why this is irrelevent Posted by: abletuno1
Historical logic would strongly suggest Palestinians descend largely from Jews
Posted by: Garvagh on Jan 28, 2009 4:05 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rafik Harari, before he was assassinated, funded DNA testing of modern Lebanese in coastal city that was founded by the Phoenicians 3000 years ago, to see if they share the same genes. The answer was affirmative as to the majority tested.

The Romans would have retained the labor force, Jewish of course, after crushing the second revolt and expelling the leaders of that revolt (who were not killed). The Palestinians also descend from the Crusaders, to a much smaller degree, and from various ethnic groups that drifted in over the centuries.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

of course he's right
Posted by: deang on Jan 28, 2009 4:26 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course Zand is right. Judaism is a religion, not a physiological group. And almost all of the Ashkenazi, who make up the majority of "white" Jews, are the children of European converts of centuries past. Genetic evidence since the 90s has shown that the Palestinians and other neighboring peoples are the people who have actually been there longest. Some of the Jews who were living in the region before the invasion of European Zionists in the last century are also truly indigenous.

And how sick it is for Jews angered by Zand's work to say that he's offering a "final solution" to Jews, when it had been Jews who have overwhelmingly been trying to eliminate the Palestinians for years, with intentions that even my Jewish friends call genocidal. Genocidal acts are another characteristic of people of European ancestry, by the way.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

politically incorrect
Posted by: sharonsylvie on Jan 28, 2009 4:47 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess that's why my previous post was taken off. Not deferential enough to AlterNet's usual game of "let's blame the Jews." Now the Jews aren't even Jews. So does this mean we're supposed to pack up yet again and move some place where we'll be considered less offensive? And where might that be? The only country in the world who accepts Jews unconditionally is Israel. No wonder you want to get rid of it.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Nice.
Posted by: daniel1982 on Jan 28, 2009 5:12 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great article. Kudos Joshua.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

When you don't like the facts, change them
Posted by: thumber77 on Jan 28, 2009 9:12 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Josh Holland approvingly notes Zand's charge that Zionists knowingly misreport history to support their current political aims.

Sort of like when Holland says "it begs the question of why the entirety of what was Palestine under the British mandate should remain a refuge for people of one religion instead of being a country in which Jews and Arabs are guaranteed equal protection" - sounds convincing doesn't it? Except that it's not true. Holland ignores that the majority of the area of the British Mandate became Jordan "a state for people of one religion" to which Holland doesn't object. If Holland doesn't like the facts, he can always change them.

Also, it's impressive that this book which challenges the central Zionist idea is published and is a best seller in Israel - could anyone imagine a provocative book like this being sold in Gaza? in Iran? in Syria? in Saudi Arabia? or in any of the other rejectionist Middle Eastern Muslim countries?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Jew ain't a race
Posted by: arabbit on Jan 28, 2009 10:07 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They're Semitic just like Palestinians.
All Jews have a right to return. Wrong. Ethiopian Jews have no right to return. Why? Cause they're black. Israel is a racist state.
I think the Jews came from the followers of Anknaton. Just a hunch.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

can we send a detenators to just set off the illegal nukes
Posted by: abletuno1 on Jan 28, 2009 10:23 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and this way no one will be there...see the world has condoned the brutal genocide for a long, very long number of years with support of the usa, against a NON MILTARY people. A few rpgs and home made missles against the most advanced, in complete fairness the hague should hold all past administration officials of the usa britain and occupationist (illegally there).
If the world does not stop the occupation and get cash reparations to all the victims of the this 120 year occupation and genocide of a people systematically. Did anyconditions get laid down by hitler, did we allow his alies to continue, did we wait for moral indebtiness to act upon the genocide and then watch as the whole world would forever be reminded of their struggles...NOW look at them, far worst than hitler could ever dream of going (120 years) such glee the settlers are in as more come from USA and Europe daily to get a piece of someone elses life. and then ask the usa to place conditions for them to "lay down and die like good victims" your terroist resistance will never be allowed by the world as ligitimate, so please drink more poisoned water, and let me shot your children as my target practice is off and I need improvement...please stand still while I shoot your infant...he will squirm and I will waste a bullet.
Lets set the nukes off and die with dignity since neocons and loyalist to the ocuupier is all that will ever come. The time for exedus of all for the occupation can have it all, for the ultimate price, and may someone please set them all off in their place and put the whole issue to rest already !

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

So What ....
Posted by: gellero1 on Jan 28, 2009 11:17 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Jews of Israel migrated there because they felt oppressed elsewhere. Especially the Jews from Arab countries.

A population shift, just like the turkic tribes displacing the Greeks in what is now Turkey.

Who gives a rat's ass about their chromosomes. They are a nation, and they are there. None here offer any realistic solutions.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» BINGO! Posted by: realtruther
MYTHOLOGY
Posted by: shd1230 on Jan 29, 2009 4:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OF COURSE THE ACCOUNTS IN THE JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN BIBLES ARE ALL MYTHOLOGY--IT IS HARD TO FATHOM HOW WE IN THE MODERN WORLD DON'T RECOGNIZE ALL THIS AS SUCH. THE PEOPLE IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD WILL FIGHT EACH OTHER UNTIL ONE OF THE LAST TWO REMAINING KILLS THE OTHER, AT WHICH TIME THE SURVIVOR WILL HAVE TO COMMIT SUICIDE SINCE THERE'S NO ONE ELSE LEFT TO KILL "IN THE NAME OF GOD."

JEW, CHRISTIAN, MUSLIM--ALL ARE BASED ON PURE MYTHOLOGY AND HAVE NO PLACE IN A CIVILIZED WORLD. MORE HARM HAS BEEEN DONE TO MANKIND BY RELIGION THAN ANY OTHER ONE THING.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Identity
Posted by: H.Dermish on Jan 29, 2009 4:09 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"a common national identity has in fact developed over the centuries"??
is that what we are doing to today's Muslims? making their-Religion their-Identity? are we making the next millennium Jews out of Muslims (billions of Muslims)? now that'll be a hoot!
back to the Book, you have to be a total idiot to believe that the Jews of today are genetically Jewish.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

The origins of Ashkenazi Jews are indeed obscure...
Posted by: FREE SPEECH on Jan 29, 2009 7:29 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...but people need to realize that Ashkenazi Jews are not of the same genetic stock as White/Caucasian Europeans, Americans, Canadians, Australians, Argentinians, New Zealanders, etc. Jews are not a "race" (however, they are an ethnic group consisting of many subgroups) but they are very separate from the White/Caucasian race which originated in Europe because Jews wandered as a homeless/exiled people in to Europe relatively recently compared to the Caucasian race which evolved their separately for thousands and thousands of years.

Stop confusing Ashkenazi Jews with "White people" and lumping them together because genetic science has proven time and time again that Ashkenazi Jews and White people from Europe are most definitely are not one and the same: "In fact, even subjects with a single Jewish grandparent can be statistically distinguished from those without Jewish ancestry."

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

False assumptions generate faulty arguments
Posted by: daw13 on Jan 29, 2009 8:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here we have another effort to find the dropped contact lens under the street lamp rather than by the dark curb where it was lost. The primary forces responsible for the Middle East conflict are neither Palestinians nor Israelis. They are, rather, the United States and the Islamic Fundamentalist movement. Israel existed only because European and later US imperialism saw it as useful toward their aims of undermining the growth of true Arab nationalism and pan-nationalism following WWII. The Islamic Fundamentalist movement, ironically created by the CIA to counteract Westernized arab nationalism, seeks its own control of Arabic political affairs. However willing or unwilling, Israel and Palestine are both more pawns than movers and shakers in this enterprise.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Lenin Marx Engels Stalin were freemason lackeys...
Posted by: chance garden on Jan 29, 2009 9:33 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That should tells us something about the who is dividing the middle east and why...

...Remember, america was founded on european freemasonic priciples, and what is B'nai B'rith but jewish freemasonry, get a clue people...there is a plan for control of the area...and there has been for many years...why do you think the CIA tried to place the Shah back in power?

...The masons use the religions to advance their goals...Their lowest common demoninator is the oath of allegiance to the supreme being...no atheist can be a mason...and so they found their affair on the broadest possible LIE...since there are no gods...

...the idea of "rebuilding the temple" in israel is a corruption that will lead to the devastation of the area...these neo-hegelians are using the strategy of thesis, anti-thesis, synthesis and have applied it to control historical developments through warfare: Think about it Event, Reaction--Solution. All done in front of the world's people who go gaw-gaw over their corrupt rulers...

I'm still wondering who these "Zionist scholars" are that had much to do who the formation of modern israel and the rise of B'nai B'rith as a freemasonic arm in Palestine

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Time Line Anyone??????
Posted by: marizara on Jan 29, 2009 1:10 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ALL of the people of the Middle East are of the same heritage. -- That heritage is genetic. -- The only divergences are either religious or nationalistic. -- They are all Judaeic, with Islam branching off later, and the nation/states branching off much later. -- Go to the histories and research the time-lines. -- THAT is why the Arabs are so angry with Israel. -- They KNOW wherein lies their origin. -- It's kind of like denying your father, so nobody will know how poor you were as a child.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

fascinating right of return to one state solution
Posted by: wewokaokie on Jan 29, 2009 8:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Zand (or Sand) is not unique in this proposal. Palestinian Ali
Abunimah's "One Country" is another, and I think Tarik Ali of London Guardian also takes this view.
I may return to this article -- appreciate its reasoning and research -- and dip into the long list of comments.
It's time to deconstruct Zionist ideology, given we've now seen where it can lead: annihilation of its Palestinian brothers -- and future generations.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Article from the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz about Israeli citizens' ignorance of history
Posted by: Defenestrator on Jan 30, 2009 9:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a great example of the sort of thoughtful, reflective work you can find in the Israeli press, but not in the US press. If an American journalist were to write the same words in a US newspaper, it would be a scandal.

Is an Israeli Jewish sense of victimization perpetuating the conflict with Palestinians? By Akiva Eldar

"Among the same Jewish public, 40 percent are unaware that at the end of the 19th century, the Arabs were an absolute majority among the inhabitants of the Land of Israel. Over half of respondents replied that in the United Nations partition plan, which was rejected by the Arabs, the Arabs received an equal or larger part of the territory of the Land of Israel, relative to their numbers; 26.6 percent did not know that the plan offered the 1.3 million Arabs a smaller part of the territory (44 percent) than was offered to 600,000 Jews (55 percent)."

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Joshua proves we need an Israel
Posted by: rankohn on Jan 30, 2009 12:04 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have an MA in Ancient Judaism but you don’t really need such a degree to spot the fallacious logic used here. We cannot use biblical and other antique historiography to conclude that the Palestinians, who did not exist as Palestinians prior to 1919 (Palestine was not called Palestine before then!), are the true Israelites and label the people who for 2,000 years ‘masqueraded’ as Jews and were abused as the Christ killers are mere Aryans and fake Jews who need to return to whence they came from. The logical conundrum to try to seek historical references as a means to disenfranchise one group over another allways backfires. Using the same logic all the whites in Australia, who we know as Australians, would need to leave and return to England and other points north of the equator and turn the country over to the Aborigines, the original Australians. Similarly the folks who now occupy my city—New York—including myself and my family and everyone else I know here, will have to evacuate possibly receiving 24 beads with which Manhattan was fraudulently acquired from the Native Americans. The problem here is that neither the Native Americans nor the Aborigines created the cultures that we identify today by the label Australian or American—the Palestinians regardless of their genetics have only been a part of the Jewish experience for the last 100 years.
I am a strict adherent of logical consistency. The facts are that Rome did indeed win two wars against the Jews that were catastrophic to Jewish population in Judea. At the end of both wars there are historical records to indicate slave market crashes attributed to the flooding of the slave markets as a result of these events, it being customary that the losing parties were either killed or sold into slavery. In fact part of the reason that Rome made a show of decimating Judea was the growing power of Jewish culture and Jewish ideas which soon thereafter flourished anyway in a new format we all know today as Christianity, incidentally started and promulgated by Jews.
Where there Jews left in the Land of Israel, now renamed by the Romans as Palestine? Yes a small remnant. Did they convert when the Aras showed up—no doubt some did—the alternative was worse. But the Jewish community did survive in what is present day Iraq and also it continued to survive throughout the Roman Empire. In fact what we now call Rabbinic Judaism first developed during those times from a previous version of Judaism that while recognizable was very different from what we call Judaism today, but that does not nullify the people who identified themselves as Jews or were so identified by others. To suggest that the “real” Jews or “genetically pure” Jews (whatever that means?) are the ones who stayed behind in Palestine and later gave rise to the present day Palestinians is just not tenable based on facts of history and science. The history of the Jews is well known and only people who have a similar blind spot as “Holocaust Deniers” would argue that the millions of people who identified themselves as Jews who lived and died as Jews or were slaughtered as Jews throughout the last 2,000 years were really not Jews.
Palestinians did not want to be known as Palestinians for much of the 20th century; Palestine is not an Arabic name—it’s a Latin name associated with Christianity—and it has no history as either a people or a place. There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that the Palestinians ever saw themselves as possibly related to Jews, who most Arabs despise and believe are related directly to Apes and monkeys (in a twisted tribute to Darwinism). I think they would be rather upset at the notion that they emanate from Jews. This is a race based argument and it is offensive as it is pointless except that I guess it’s OK to use it against the Jews. It has happened before it is why Jews need an Israel.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Nothing New, This Case Has Been Made Before
Posted by: The Reverend of Divine Anger on Jan 31, 2009 2:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This idea is nothing new at all, Cavali-Sforza devoted an entire chapter to this idea in his classic text, "The Great Human Diaspora". I believe that this book, although I have not read it, should not be questionable at all. Indeed, Cavali-Sforza made a solid case yet it was not a bestseller and is mainly used in Biology classes.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Israel look at this and cry for your lost humanity.....
Posted by: herbal on Feb 1, 2009 12:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2510

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

How Israel wsa founded..thru terrorism.
Posted by: brianct on Feb 3, 2009 7:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A Brief History of Israeli Terror Killings Since 1946

This section reviews others since 1946, two years before the establishment of a Jewish state. The list is long, way-incomplete, very disturbing, and shows what Palestinians have endured for over 60 years. Their ordeal continues in the West Bank and Gaza under siege, still attacked, and, as always, betrayed by the dominant media.

The King David Hotel July 22, 1946 Bombing

The Menachem Begin-led Irgun planned and conducted the massacre of 92 Brits, Arabs and Jews, wounding 58 others. As head of the Jewish Agency, David Ben-Gurion approved the operation. It was to destroy British-gathered evidence that its leaders colluded with the Haganah, Palmach, Irgun and Stern gangs in a wave of terrorist crimes and killings. Bombing the King David Hotel was the most notorious and followed a pattern before and since of brutal Israeli state terrorism.

The British Secretariat of the Palestine Government and British Army HQ kept offices in the hotel. Attackers disguised as milkmen, planted explosives in milk containers, placed them in the basement and left. At the time, the action shocked the civilized world and outraged the British leadership and House of Commons.

Other Israeli Terrorist Incidents against Palestinians

-- Tira, December 11, 1947 - five Palestinians were killed and six injured;

-- a village outside Haifa, December 12, 1947 - 12 Palestinians killed;

-- a village outside Tel Aviv, December 14, 1947 - 18 Palestinians killed and 100 injured;

-- al-Khias, December 18, 1947 - the paramilitary Haganah killed 10 Palestinians, most inside their homes;

-- Haifa, December 30, 1947 - six Palestinians killed and 42 wounded;

-- Jerusalem, December 30, 1947 - Irgun terrorists threw a bomb from a speeding car killing 11 Palestinians and two Brits;

-- Balad Esh-Sheikh, December 31, 1947 - the Haganah killed 60 Palestinians, most inside their homes;

-- Jaffa, January 4, 1948 - the Stern Gang killed up to 30 and wounded 100 in a truck bombing;

-- the Semiramis Hotel, Jerusalem, January 4, 1948 - the Haganah bombed the hotel killing 25 civilians;

-- Jaffa Gate, Jerusalem, January 7, 1948 - 17 Palestinians killed;

-- Tireh, February 10, 1948 - seven Palestinians killed and five injured;

-- on a bus from Safad, February 12, 1948 - five Palestinians killed and five injured;

-- Sa'sa', February 14, 1948 - 60 Palestinians killed, mostly in their homes;

-- Qisarya, February 15 - 20, 1948 - 25 Palestinians killed;
etc
israel founded on terrorism

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

The factual evidence for Sand's assertions.
Posted by: Margaret1 on Feb 3, 2009 7:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The factual evidence for Sand's assertions can be found in a book titled "The Exodus in the Quran" by Margaret King, available on Amazon.com. As King shows, matching archaeological discoveries with rabbinic literature and the Quran, the ancient Hebrews emerged from Mesopotamia and were scattered all over the Near East. The Exodus took place in southern Iraq over 4,300 years ago, where Egypt had a military presence and civilization for several hundred years before it was destroyed. Palestinian Jerusalem was established as a center of worship only during a "second phase" in the history of the children of Israel, and was not the location of the famed kingdoms of David and Solomon. The Palestinians, among many others in the Near East, all fell into the category of the "children of Israel" or "Jews" or "Hebrews", the majority of whom became Muslims. Read King's book, which proves Sand to be correct.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Wouldn't DNA tests clear this up?
Posted by: eyejam on Feb 3, 2009 10:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm no expert but it seems like matters of biological diversity or homogeneity could easily be narrowed some, at the very least, by genetic testing. Think of it as Homeland paternity tests. Genetics offers far more compelling evidence than internal or external histories. History, as you may've heard, is political.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

This has some truth, but facts are taken out of greater context
Posted by: empathyplease on Feb 5, 2009 8:42 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There may be some basis in truth to this, but they are facts out of a greater context:

1. Some errors on the truth:

* Even among Ashkenazi jews in Europe, there are genetic links to natives of Palestine. These links are not found in normal white Europeans. This suggests a genetic link to the Palestine from a long time ago.

2. Even if the jews and arabs descended from a common people, which is mainly true:

* Many of the "palestinians" in the land came there AFTER the jews from Europe started arriving around the late 1800's
* There were many jews in the land before that (no, not a majority, but Jerusalem was a jewish majority city for most of the last 2000 years)
* The differences between the jews/arabs, and more accurately, muslims/jews, are too great now for a binational state. For example, look at how the muslims in Lebanon have been persecuting and driving out the Christians for the last 50 years. Think what they would do to the jews in a binational state.
* It doesn't address that the Arab countires kicked out 800,000+ Jews between 1948 and 1967 -- jews who had lived there since the time of Christ ....weren't those jews natives of those arab countries.... didn't they have a right to the land?

3. Bias in writing

The primary reason it's so difficult to discuss the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians is the remarkably effective job supporters of Israel's control of the Occupied Territories -- including Gaza, still under de facto occupation -- have done equating support for Palestinian self-determination with a desire to see the destruction of Israel. It effectively conflates any advocacy of Palestinian rights with the specter of Jewish extermination.
--> The words "defacto occupation" ... which was not true until the Palestinians started launching rockets after Israel left Gaza ... suggests the author has an anti-Israeli political agenda.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

silkworm
Posted by: silkworm on Feb 9, 2009 9:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Historically I can say that the Eastern European Jewry Hijacked the Judaic religion and being "racists" were reluctant to live with the "Semites" of Palestine including Moslem Arabs and Christians, whom were thought of illeterate and somewhat dumb.

Most of the people living in the land of Palestine, prior to the arrival of White-Jews, were peasants

This is a fact that the Sephardic Jews were living in Palestine and co-existed in peace with their Moslem and Christian neighbors, and whatever friction arose out of Balfour Declaration and Sykes-Picot agreement hence this distrust created.

It is also a proven historical fact that the Eastern European Jewry or Ashken-Nazis had an arrogant attitude towards Arab Moslems and were intolerant and abusive towards Semitic races living in palestine.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

____
Posted by: itouch backup on Feb 11, 2009 1:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
______________________
itouch backup

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

  • AlterNetYour turn

Support AlterNet
Do you value the information you're getting from AlterNet? Please show your support with a tax-deductible donation.


Feedback
Tell us how we're doing.

Advertisement
Advertisement