COMMENTS: 206
Israel Screwed Itself Over with Its Gaza Assault; the World Sees It as a 'Blood-Stained Monster'
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Editor's note: In this powerful essay, Uri Avnery writes that Israel's latest assault on Gaza has backfired spectacularly for the country's long-term interests. He writes, "Seared into the consciousness of the world will be the image of Israel as a bloodstained monster, ready at any moment to commit war crimes and not prepared to abide by any moral restraints. This will have severe consequences for [Israel's] long-term future, our standing in the world, our chance of achieving peace and quiet."
Avnery also writes that the true purpose of Israel's invasion, "(apart from gaining seats in the coming elections) is to terminate the rule of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. In the imagination of the planners, Hamas is an invader which has gained control of a foreign country. The reality is, of course, entirely different." Yet, he argues, "Even if the Israeli army were to succeed in killing every Hamas fighter to the last man, even then Hamas would win. The Hamas fighters would be seen as the paragons of the Arab nation, the heroes of the Palestinian people, models for emulation by every youngster in the Arab world. The West Bank would fall into the hands of Hamas like a ripe fruit, Fatah would drown in a sea of contempt, the Arab regimes would be threatened with collapse."
---
Nearly seventy ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called "the Red Army" held the millions of the town's inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands.
Some time before that, a similar crime was committed in England. The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.
This is the description that would now appear in the history books -- if the Germans had won the war.
Absurd? No more than the daily descriptions in our media, which are being repeated ad nauseam: the Hamas terrorists use the inhabitants of Gaza as "hostages" and exploit the women and children as "human shields", they leave us no alternative but to carry out massive bombardments, in which, to our deep sorrow, thousands of women, children and unarmed men are killed and injured.
* * *
In this war, as in any modern war, propaganda plays a major role. The disparity between the forces, between the Israeli army -- with its airplanes, gunships, drones, warships, artillery and tanks -- and the few thousand lightly armed Hamas fighters, is one to a thousand, perhaps one to a million. In the political arena the gap between them is even wider. But in the propaganda war, the gap is almost infinite.
Almost all the Western media initially repeated the official Israeli propaganda line. They almost entirely ignored the Palestinian side of the story, not to mention the daily demonstrations of the Israeli peace camp. The rationale of the Israeli government ("The state must defend its citizens against the Qassam rockets") has been accepted as the whole truth. The view from the other side, that the Qassams are a retaliation for the siege that starves the one and a half million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip, was not mentioned at all.
Only when the horrible scenes from Gaza started to appear on Western TV screens, did world public opinion gradually begin to change.
True, Western and Israeli TV channels showed only a tiny fraction of the dreadful events that appear 24 hours every day on Aljazeera's Arabic channel, but one picture of a dead baby in the arms of its terrified father is more powerful than a thousand elegantly constructed sentences from the Israeli army spokesman. And that is what is decisive, in the end.
War -- every war -- is the realm of lies. Whether called propaganda or psychological warfare, everybody accepts that it is right to lie for one's country. Anyone who speaks the truth runs the risk of being branded a traitor.
The trouble is that propaganda is most convincing for the propagandist himself. And after you convince yourself that a lie is the truth and falsification reality, you can no longer make rational decisions.
An example of this process surrounds the most shocking atrocity of this war so far: the shelling of the UN Fakhura school in Jabaliya refugee camp.
Immediately after the incident became known throughout the world, the army "revealed" that Hamas fighters had been firing mortars from near the school entrance. As proof they released an aerial photo which indeed showed the school and the mortar. But within a short time the official army liar had to admit that the photo was more than a year old. In brief: a falsification.
Later the official liar claimed that "our soldiers were shot at from inside the school". Barely a day passed before the army had to admit to UN personnel that that was a lie, too. Nobody had shot from inside the school, no Hamas fighters were inside the school, which was full of terrified refugees.
But the admission made hardly any difference anymore. By that time, the Israeli public was completely convinced that "they shot from inside the school", and TV announcers stated this as a simple fact.
So it went with the other atrocities. Every baby metamorphosed, in the act of dying, into a Hamas terrorist. Every bombed mosque instantly became a Hamas base, every apartment building an arms cache, every school a terror command post, every civilian government building a "symbol of Hamas rule". Thus the Israeli army retained its purity as the "most moral army in the world".
* * *
The truth is that the atrocities are a direct result of the war plan. This reflects the personality of Ehud Barak -- a man whose way of thinking and actions are clear evidence of what is called "moral insanity", a sociopathic disorder.
The real aim (apart from gaining seats in the coming elections) is to terminate the rule of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. In the imagination of the planners, Hamas is an invader which has gained control of a foreign country. The reality is, of course, entirely different.
The Hamas movement won the majority of the votes in the eminently democratic elections that took place in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip. It won because the Palestinians had come to the conclusion that Fatah's peaceful approach had gained precisely nothing from Israel -- neither a freeze of the settlements, nor release of the prisoners, nor any significant steps toward ending the occupation and creating the Palestinian state. Hamas is deeply rooted in the population -- not only as a resistance movement fighting the foreign occupier, like the Irgun and the Stern Group in the past -- but also as a political and religious body that provides social, educational and medical services.
From the point of view of the population, the Hamas fighters are not a foreign body, but the sons of every family in the Strip and the other Palestinian regions. They do not "hide behind the population", the population views them as their only defenders.
Therefore, the whole operation is based on erroneous assumptions. Turning life into living hell does not cause the population to rise up against Hamas, but on the contrary, it unites behind Hamas and reinforces its determination not to surrender. The population of Leningrad did not rise up against Stalin, any more than the Londoners rose up against Churchill.
He who gives the order for such a war with such methods in a densely populated area knows that it will cause dreadful slaughter of civilians. Apparently that did not touch him. Or he believed that "they will change their ways" and "it will sear their consciousness", so that in future they will not dare to resist Israel.
A top priority for the planners was the need to minimize casualties among the soldiers, knowing that the mood of a large part of the pro-war public would change if reports of such casualties came in. That is what happened in Lebanon Wars I and II.
This consideration played an especially important role because the entire war is a part of the election campaign. Ehud Barak, who gained in the polls in the first days of the war, knew that his ratings would collapse if pictures of dead soldiers filled the TV screens.
Therefore, a new doctrine was applied: to avoid losses among our soldiers by the total destruction of everything in their path. The planners were not only ready to kill 80 Palestinians to save one Israeli soldier, as has happened, but also 800. The avoidance of casualties on our side is the overriding commandment, which is causing record numbers of civilian casualties on the other side.
That means the conscious choice of an especially cruel kind of warfare -- and that has been its Achilles heel.
A person without imagination, like Barak (his election slogan: "Not a Nice Guy, but a Leader") cannot imagine how decent people around the world react to actions like the killing of whole extended families, the destruction of houses over the heads of their inhabitants, the rows of boys and girls in white shrouds ready for burial, the reports about people bleeding to death over days because ambulances are not allowed to reach them, the killing of doctors and medics on their way to save lives, the killing of UN drivers bringing in food. The pictures of the hospitals, with the dead, the dying and the injured lying together on the floor for lack of space, have shocked the world. No argument has any force next to an image of a wounded little girl lying on the floor, twisting with pain and crying out: "Mama! Mama!"
The planners thought that they could stop the world from seeing these images by forcibly preventing press coverage. The Israeli journalists, to their shame, agreed to be satisfied with the reports and photos provided by the Army Spokesman, as if they were authentic news, while they themselves remained miles away from the events. Foreign journalists were not allowed in either, until they protested and were taken for quick tours in selected and supervised groups. But in a modern war, such a sterile manufactured view cannot completely exclude all others -- the cameras are inside the strip, in the middle of the hell, and cannot be controlled. Aljazeera broadcasts the pictures around the clock and reaches every home.
* * *
The battle for the TV screen is one of the decisive battles of the war.
Hundreds of millions of Arabs from Mauritania to Iraq, more than a billion Muslims from Nigeria to Indonesia see the pictures and are horrified. This has a strong impact on the war. Many of the viewers see the rulers of Egypt, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority as collaborators with Israel in carrying out these atrocities against their Palestinian brothers.
The security services of the Arab regimes are registering a dangerous ferment among the peoples. Hosny Mubarak, the most exposed Arab leader because of his closing of the Rafah crossing in the face of terrified refugees, started to pressure the decision-makers in Washington, who until that time had blocked all calls for a cease-fire. These began to understand the menace to vital American interests in the Arab world and suddenly changed their attitude -- causing consternation among the complacent Israeli diplomats.
People with moral insanity cannot really understand the motives of normal people and must guess their reactions. "How many divisions has the Pope?" Stalin sneered. "How many divisions have people of conscience?" Ehud Barak may well be asking.
As it turns out, they do have some. Not numerous. Not very quick to react. Not very strong and organized. But at a certain moment, when the atrocities overflow and masses of protesters come together, that can decide a war.
The failure to grasp the nature of Hamas has caused a failure to grasp the predictable results. Not only is Israel unable to win the war, Hamas cannot lose it.
Even if the Israeli army were to succeed in killing every Hamas fighter to the last man, even then Hamas would win. The Hamas fighters would be seen as the paragons of the Arab nation, the heroes of the Palestinian people, models for emulation by every youngster in the Arab world. The West Bank would fall into the hands of Hamas like a ripe fruit, Fatah would drown in a sea of contempt, the Arab regimes would be threatened with collapse.
If the war ends with Hamas still standing, bloodied but unvanquished, in face of the mighty Israeli military machine, it will look like a fantastic victory, a victory of mind over matter.
What will be seared into the consciousness of the world will be the image of Israel as a blood-stained monster, ready at any moment to commit war crimes and not prepared to abide by any moral restraints. This will have severe consequences for our long-term future, our standing in the world, our chance of achieving peace and quiet.
In the end, this war is a crime against ourselves too, a crime against the State of Israel.
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Posted by: colindale on Jan 24, 2009 12:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THANK GOD Jewish communities around the world are at last coming to their senses! Killing unarmed civilians, men, women and children with missiles, bombs, white phosphorus, or a bullet through the head is a criminal act - A WAR CRIME. No amount of propaganda from the Israeli embassy will alter that fact. These atrocities are not done in the name of ordinary Jews and we condemn these acts, outright. Judaism expressly forbids such terrible killings. Please use your voice to get President Obama to STOP THE SALE OF ARMS TO THE MIDDLE EAST NOW - tanks, planes, cluster bombs, white phosphorus, guns and spare parts.
Let this senseless brutality cease! Do NOT support the killing of any civilians – particularly children. It is an act against God.
“AMERICAN JEWS OPPOSE ISRAELI POLICY IN GAZA”
Jan 22nd, 2009
“We Shall Not Be a Party to Their Counsel!”
As human beings, we are shocked and appalled at the mass destruction unleashed by the State of Israel against the people of Gaza in its current military operation, following years of Israeli occupation, siege, and deprivation.
As Americans, we protest the carte blanche given Israel by the US government to pursue a war of “national honor,” “restoring deterrence,” “destroying Hamas,” and “searing Israel’s military might into the consciousness of the Gazans.”
As progressives, we reject the same justifications for the carnage that we heard ad nauseam from the supporters of the Second Iraq War: the so-called “war on terror,” the “clash of civilizations,” the “need to re-establish deterrence” – all of which served to justify a misguided and unnecessary war, with disastrous consequences for America and Iraq.
But as Jews of different religious persuasions, from Orthodox to secular atheist, we are especially horrified that a state that purports to speak in our name wages a military campaign that has killed over 1,000 people, a large percentage of them civilians, children, and non-combatants, with little or no consideration for human rights or the laws of war.
While the moral and legal issue concerning Israel’s right to respond militarily in these circumstance can be debated, there is near-universal agreement that its conduct of the military operation has been unjust and even criminal – with only the usual apologists for the Jewish state disagreeing.
As Jews, we stand united with another Israel, the patriarch Jacob, who cursed his sons Simeon and Levi for massacring the people of Shechem in revenge for the rape of their sister Dinah. Like Jacob, “we shall not be a party to the counsel of zealots. We shall not be counted in their assembly. (See Genesis 34. 49: 5-7).
As Jews, we stand united with the Jewish sages who rejected the zealotry of the Jewish “terrorists” at Masada, those who masked ethnic tribalism in the cloak of “self-defense” and “national honor.”
Finally, as American Jewish progressives, and as human beings, we condemn Hamas and Israel for violating the human rights of civilians on both sides, although we do not necessarily declare these violations to be morally or legally equivalent. We affirm the rights of both Israeli and the Palestinian peoples to self-determination and self-defense, as we affirm the rights of both Israelis and Palestinians to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Rabbi Leonard Beerman
Rabbi Brant Rosen
Rabbi Rebecca Lillian
Rabbi Haim Dov Beliak
Tony Judt, NYU
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» RE: Jews Oppose Israel
Posted by: ekinney
» RE: Jews Oppose Israel
Posted by: lenioui
» RE: Jews Oppose Israel
Posted by: weathered
» RE: Jews Oppose those who would destroy you.
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: Jews Oppose those who would destroy you.
Posted by: weathered
» RE: Jews Oppose those who would destroy you.
Posted by: using
» RE: Jews Oppose those who would destroy you.
Posted by: hilaryuk
» RE: Jews defend themselves against the horror of war and their place as progressives instead of
Posted by: using
» RE: Jews defend themselves against the horror of war and their place as progressives instead of
Posted by: using
» RE: Jews defend themselves against the horror of war and their place as progressives instead of
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Jews Oppose part 2
Posted by: using
» @using - A FEW POINTS
Posted by: Baenz
» RE: @Bienz - A FEW POINTS from Using
Posted by: using
» RE: @Bienz - A FEW POINTS from Using
Posted by: Baenz
» RE: @Bienz - A FEW POINTS from Using
Posted by: using
» RE: Jews Oppose part 2
Posted by: babs
» Art. 49 of the Geneva Convention
Posted by: pierrot
» RE: Jews Oppose Israel
Posted by: NYCartist
» RE: Jews Oppose Israel
Posted by: using
» RE: Jews Oppose Israel
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Jews Oppose Israel:"using",are you addressing me?
Posted by: NYCartist
» RE: Jews Oppose Israel
Posted by: woodford54
» The most moral army in the world...NOT
Posted by: brianct
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Harris20 on Jan 24, 2009 1:16 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israeli leaders have gone too far this time. The type of military weapons are not the conventional type normally used. In fact, they seem experimental.
The use of Dense Inert Metal Explosives, is one example; they are packed with tungsten powder which produces intense explosion at knee level and once inside the body becomes hard to detect and is extremely carcinogenic which produces an aggressive form of cancer.
"But someone's entire abdomen will be ripped open, and only after searching will we find a miniscule hole in the skin. Then we will find small black dots all over the organ, but we don't know what they are."
“The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the UN's nuclear watchdog, said it would look into a claim made by the ambassadors of a number of Arab nations that Israel used depleted uranium in its recent attacks on Gaza. “
“Amnesty International said it was "undeniable" that Israel had used white phosphorus in crowded civilian areas, contrary to international law, charging that this amounted to a war crime. “
Yet...
"Let me be clear: America is committed to Israel's security and we will always support Israel's right to defend itself against legitimate threats," Mr Obama said.
President Obama says he is “deeply concerned and his “heart goes out to Palestinian civilians”.
I hope these just aren't words.
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» Hold Obama Accountable to the American People
Posted by: David/Daoud
» That was then - but Obama was betrayed - he learns fast!
Posted by: pierrot
» RE: xperimental Weapons
Posted by: beijaflor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DrBrian on Jan 24, 2009 1:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www. thedailystar.net/ story.php?nid=72015
(Sorry, you'll have to delete the spaces).
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» RE: We're All Palestinians Now
Posted by: rinthy
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Posted by: wisegalah on Jan 24, 2009 2:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Established on the basis of ethnic cleansing which has continued over sixty years.
Many of its leaders were terrorists themselves and just as ruthless and hate-filled as any other terrorist or blackshirt.
Continues to justify its existence with the hisory of extermination of jewish people in Europe, while perpetuating the same policies in Gaza and the West Bank. Yes some of your people then were victims but now you are the murders of children, the ethnic cleansers and the liars.
After all what is the difference between the Nazi policy of 'lebensraum' and the zionist idea that the land was given specially to them?
Really?
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» RE: Israel the criminal state.
Posted by: kick
» RE: Israel the criminal state.
Posted by: babs
» RE: Israel the criminal state. Israel is the TERRORIST state also.
Posted by: symcokid
» Not in 2009 !
Posted by: David/Daoud
Comments are closed-
Posted by: helen_0f_romford on Jan 24, 2009 5:57 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is the Israeli govt doing this and it's not even supported by all of the jews in Israel, let alone by the majority of jews in the world. To allow this to discussion to degenerate into some sub-Ickian conspiracy rant demeans the very real suffering of those in Gaza and the West bank.
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» Yes, Helen, his comment was borderline BUT...
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: On "not seeing them as fully human"...
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: On "not seeing them as fully human"...
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: On "not seeing them as fully human"... PART TWO
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: On "not seeing them as fully human"... PART THREE
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: On "not seeing them as fully human"... PART FOUR
Posted by: Squarehead
» So, when Alex Jones sucked your brains out, did he
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: On "not seeing them as fully human"...
Posted by: hilaryuk
» BUT...nothing
Posted by: helen_0f_romford
» I agree.
Posted by: Hechicera
» RE: I agree.
Posted by: babs
» RE: Any criticism of the Jews is called antisemitism
Posted by: EncinoM
» permission to Vomit
Posted by: weathered
» RE: permission to Vomit
Posted by: EncinoM
» Was it reason and logic...
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: Any criticism of the Jews is called antisemitism
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
Comments are closed-
Posted by: 2thepoint on Jan 24, 2009 3:20 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately the UN is a paper tiger and the world is powerless to stop these daily attacks so they essentially leave Israel no choice.
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» Try reading the article next time
Posted by: True2Blue
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: moflard
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: True2Blue
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: True2Blue
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: dragonlady620
» RE: Paper tigers!
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» RE: Paper tigers!
Posted by: Maxemum
» RE: Paper tigers!
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Correct, Correct, Correct, Correct...
Posted by: simonhhh
» You stupid! Sderot is rightly and justly bombed.
Posted by: pierrot
» RE: You stupid! Sderot is rightly and justly bombed.
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» And Israel leaveS us....
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: Paper tigers!
Posted by: hilaryuk
» RE: Paper tigers!
Posted by: koolwoman
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Posted by: phindrup on Jan 24, 2009 3:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By: Moshe Dayan
Date: 4 April 1969
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» Thank you for your contribution to understanding.
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: Israel is a 'blood stained monster'!
Posted by: Hechicera
Comments are closed-
Posted by: weathered on Jan 24, 2009 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Carnival/Princess/Cunard
see the listings on the israeli theft exchange
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» RE: Boycott all things Israeli
Posted by: Maxemum
» RE: Boycott all things Israeli
Posted by: weathered
» RE: Boycott all things Israeli
Posted by: rinthy
» RE: Boycott all things Israeli
Posted by: Maxemum
» RE: Boycott all things Israeli
Posted by: weathered
» RE: would have to start with boycotting US government
Posted by: MeyravLevine
» Website- "Who Profits From The Occupation"
Posted by: Defenestrator
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Maxemum on Jan 24, 2009 6:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These are must see videos. You'll have to remove the spaces after you have copied them into your browsers. I have a feeling that these won't be on youtube for long so take advantage and educate yourselves.
http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWqFxLCEGGY&feature=channel
http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlgfkJzR1-8&feature=channel
http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc89WsXY4II&feature=channel
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» RE: Breaking: Video Coming Out Of Palestine...
Posted by: rinthy
» RE: Breaking: Video Coming Out Of Palestine...
Posted by: Maxemum
» Thanks
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: Thanks
Posted by: Maxemum
» the question is who is resposible and not civialn story
Posted by: mikeben1
» RE: the question is who is resposible and not civialn story
Posted by: Maxemum
Comments are closed-
Posted by: navy-vet on Jan 24, 2009 6:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nations like Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia and Franco's Spain, that the world knows are led by violent, aggressive megalomaniacs, are expected to act brutally and without regard for world opinion. Their reputations can't be damaged further. Those who've claimed to possess a higher vision and benign moral conscience, like Israel, the United States, ancient Rome and the British Empire, are condemned for hypocrisy. People everywhere yearn for a beacon of hope and honor, and when claims of morality are exposed as obvious lies, then a land, a religion or a person becomes a wolf's head--despised for the disappointment of failing self-proclaimed high ideals as much as for barbaric actions. When public good-will is replaced by turning away in disgust, that's when we know that the downward spiral has been recognized. Obama's America has (at least temporarily) gained a second chance. I hope Israel will, but the prospects right now are poor.
This article was written on January 12th, BEFORE the vital food, water and medical supplies housed within the UN compound were deliberately targeted and destroyed.
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» Resisting AIPAC
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: esisting AIPAC
Posted by: grn1
» What's that about guy sales?
Posted by: David/Daoud
» GUN, you idiot, not guy (lol)
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: GUN, you idiot, not guy (lol)
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
Comments are closed-
Posted by: EncinoM on Jan 24, 2009 9:41 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I am waiting for you to quote directly from the Protocols of Zion
Posted by: Quannah
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Posted by: chance garden on Jan 24, 2009 1:33 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ekinney on Jan 24, 2009 7:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Israel lost its way 6,000 years ago - AMEN.
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: Israel lost its way 6,000 years ago - AMEN.
Posted by: rinthy
» RE: The Bible is not Silly; Especially in the context of this discussion
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: The Bible is not Silly; Especially in the context of this discussion
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Mixing the Bible and politics IS ALWAYS SILLY
Posted by: DCostello2
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jan 24, 2009 7:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As far as the Israeli regime is concerned, they reap what they sow for themselves. The larger problem is that--rightly or wrongly--a bad Israel is bad for everybody, not just Israelis. While Jewish victimhood has certainly been exaggerated and exploited by Israel, the US, and others, antisemitism is still real, as history has shown. Israel's frittering away the support and compassion for Jews which has been somewhat justified since WWII has much bigger and unfortunate implications for many more than just the Israelis and Palestinians.
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» Resist the NWO is what happens when people listen to...
Posted by: EncinoM
» What Israel fears most?
Posted by: weathered
» RE: What Israel fears most?
Posted by: EncinoM
Comments are closed-
Posted by: David/Daoud on Jan 24, 2009 7:43 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. It would wake people up.
Posted by: rinthy
» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. It would wake people up.
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. It would wake people up.
Posted by: rinthy
» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. It would wake people up.
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. It would wake people up.
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. It would wake people up.
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. It would wake people up.
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. It would wake people up.
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. [Any turn round in Germany was due to the policies implemented by
Posted by: Squarehead
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GuitarBill on Jan 24, 2009 12:19 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: jbpazz on Jan 24, 2009 7:51 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The war now over it is definitely back burner stuff. Hamas now battles Fatah for control of foreign aid. Both parties want to convert the donations into fat offshore accounts.
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» RE: At War's End the Real Battles for Foreign Aid Begin
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» What absolute cynical bullshit !
Posted by: David/Daoud
» YOU ARE A SICK FUCK
Posted by: charlieparisek
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jan 24, 2009 8:04 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Sometimes you actually make a little sense.....
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: Sometimes you actually make a little sense.....
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Dude, ANNA always makes sense
Posted by: beijaflor
» You can NOT be serious!
Posted by: Baenz
» Baenz, please relax.....
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: ENOUGH HISTORY LESSONS, THANK YOU
Posted by: masthead
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Posted by: Len Miller on Jan 24, 2009 9:44 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Notwithstanding the strength of permitting dissent and open discussion, it does not always produce sane arguments. Proof positive is the thought process and writings of Uri Avnery. For some reason, Avnery, as do others see Israel as having no right of self defense. For some strange reason, they see Israel as different from all other Nations on this earth. They cannot possibly think that other nations would stand for their populations, their children, their men and women being attacked by hundreds of rockets daily, day after day. Having to live in bomb shelters--- Having to cancel schools that are the subject of attack. Having to counsel their children from the fear and shock of bombardment (so poorly reported in the World) Israel, unlike anyone else in the World, should stand mute. Israel should permit its citizenry to suffer. Jews should just take it. Jews should stand by and permit their fellow Jews to suffer. And, they should do so - as is the latest argument- because Hamas was elected. (By the way, so was Hitler). Well simply because the people of Gaza who were left a thriving economy and a wonderful irrigation system by Israel, chose to elect an organization that seeks no peace with Israel and sees ALL of Israel as "occupied territory" does not mean that Israeli's should be harmed and killed. No, it meant just the opposite for the Gaza population.
Respectfully, Mr.Avnery, I understand the desire for peace. Any sane person wants peace. But, peace on what terms, the complete destrucion of Israel? Is that a term acceptable to you?
I have few questions for you. Do you truly believe that Israel is a war mongerer? Do you truly believe that Israel wants to live in a war like state rather than a peaceful one? Do you truly believe that Israel has a real partner in Hamas in the peace process? Do you truly believe that Hamas whose aim is the complete destruction of Israel and the Jews desires peace and a two state solution? If you can truly answer all of these questions Yes-- then either you are a fool or at the very least ignorant as to the Hamas covenant, the history of the State of Israel since its inception and have forgotten the lessons we all should have learned from the Holocaust.
Israel desires nothing but peace. It has already accepted a 2 state solution. However from its inception, it has been attacked and attacked again and again by the Arab nations and the "refugees" used by the Arab Nations in their Public relations efforts. Mr. Avnery, if you really want to make a contribution to peace (and I recommend this to all on this site and this commentary), find a partner for Israel to speak to,discuss and negotiate with toward a peaceful solution and you will have benefitted the World, the refugee pawns, Israel and we can all move forward in peace.
Until such time as you find those partners for Israel to deal with, there will be conflict. Conflict because no sovereign nation will suffer attack nor default on its obligation to defend its citizens. If you think it is different for Israel, you are simply wrong.
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» RE: VEN AN ISRAELI CAN BE WRONG
Posted by: crazy carlos
» RE: VEN AN ISRAELI CAN BE WRONG
Posted by: weathered
» Israel's most effective Lie ?
Posted by: weathered
» RE: AGAIN TYPICAL ZIONIST PROPAGANDA
Posted by: simonhhh
» YOU ARE GUILTY
Posted by: charlieparisek
» RE: VEN AN ISRAELI CAN BE WRONG
Posted by: babs
» RE: VEN AN ISRAELI CAN BE WRONG
Posted by: Quannah
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Posted by: Artra on Jan 24, 2009 10:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WHAT IS URGENT, FOR THE JEWS AND NORTHAMERICANS SAKE, IS TO PUT ON EVERY BODY'S
SIGHT THE WHOLE NET OF ZIONIST POWER, HERE -SPECIALLY AT THE WHITE HOUSE AND CONGRESS- AND ALL OVER THE WORLD
AND EXCUSE ME, BUT LET'S DEMAND OBAMA WHO IS HE MAINLY WORKING FOR.
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» Oh yes...very good question
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: ahm Emmanuel or Obama or Both ruling the country?
Posted by: wewokaokie
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Posted by: Garvagh on Jan 24, 2009 10:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Bill Moyers should stick to what he knows for a fact
Posted by: David/Daoud
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Posted by: simonhhh on Jan 24, 2009 12:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Meanwhile the foolish Israeli Leadership are leading the Israelis into the shithouse...
YouTube - UK Jewish MP Israel acting like Nazis
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=VEFw2tD2ySg
Watch and be horrified and disturbed...
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Posted by: GuitarBill on Jan 24, 2009 3:12 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or, if you're really feeling ambitious, go play in the freeway.
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» RE: Go back to Rense. com's board
Posted by: weathered
» Rense is a liar who spreads disinformation, paranoia and hate.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: ense is a liar who spreads disinformation, paranoia and hate.
Posted by: weathered
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Posted by: Maxemum on Jan 24, 2009 3:03 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http ://whatreallyhappened.com/
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» RE: Gaza Updates at the following link.
Posted by: drmali2001
» RE: Gaza Updates at the following link.
Posted by: Maxemum
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Posted by: Defenestrator on Jan 24, 2009 3:42 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Q & A Part 1
Q & A Part 2
Q & A Part 3
Q & A Part 4
Q & A Part 5
Q & A Part 6
Q & A Part 7
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» Thanks
Posted by: Hechicera
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Posted by: YHShVH on Jan 24, 2009 5:38 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» All religions use different words to describe the same indescribable omnispresent quality of quanta.
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: Fewer Palestinians died in Gaza than Jews slaughtered by Mohammed at Khyber in 629 C.E.
Posted by: Hechicera
» RE: Fewer Palestinians died in Gaza than Jews slaughtered by Mohammed at Khyber in 629 C.E.
Posted by: masthead
» RE: Fewer Palestinians died in Gaza than Jews slaughtered by Mohammed at Khyber in 629 C.E.
Posted by: gandolfshep
» RE: Fewer Palestinians died in Gaza than Jews slaughtered by Mohammed at Khyber in 629 C.E.
Posted by: gandolfshep
» HAVE YOU EVER READ THE TORAH?
Posted by: charlieparisek
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Posted by: iris89 on Jan 24, 2009 8:08 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Gazans went looking for trouble by being extremely bad neighbors and predictably found it.
Those who seek to destroy world peace and tranquility by lighting the proverbial fuse by firing rockets at their neighbors bring on their own misery - they alone are responsible for what happens to their infrastructure.
It is very regrettable that some groups do NOT know how to be good neighbors and further world peace and tranquility.
FIRST Reality, None of the destruction we saw happen on the world news needed to happen. Now why did it happen? Simple the Gazans brought it on themselves by committing almost daily atrocities and provocations against their neighbors, the State of Israel; i.e., by being bad neighbors and trying to destroy world peace and tranquility. Look at the facts:
"You live every day with a threat of a rocket falling from the sky. No human being can live in a state like this," Ban said. "I expect basic humanitarian law to protect civilian life to be respected and restored and not violated as Hamas has done." [source - USA Today News - World - 1/20/2009]
Someone needs to get real and STOP playing dumb - every action as a reaction opposite in direction - and the "brains" in Gaza should have realized that - how dumb can you get? Do you think the United Kingdom would suffer as much patience as Israel did for about eight years if someone started shooting rockets at London, or the French if someone started shooting rockets at Paris? Let's be real, the response would NOT be measured in days, weeks, months, or years as was the State of Israel, but would be almost immediate.
SECOND Reality, All need to be showing love to their neighbor which obviously the Gazans forgot. All need to be showing love to their neighbors including Jews (Hebrews) and telling them of the first step toward salvation given at John 14:6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (Authorized King James Bible; AV). Messages of hate assist no one in learning the truth per John 8:32, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (Authorized King James Bible; AV).
YET THE GAZANS GO SO FAR AS TO SAY THEY ARE OUT TO DESTROY THEIR NEIGHBOR AND THEN ACT STUPID WONDERING WHY THEIR NEIGHBOR DOES NOT LIKE THEM. Now these are the words of HATE, NOT LOVE AND PEACE; to wit, they are out to destroy world peace and tranquility and have recently done a pretty good job of it. You get back what you show to others - sometimes in many folds. The Gazans need to learn this and stop buying rockets to hurt their neighbors and start buying food and necessities instead; i.e., they need to stop crying false tears about their humanitarian needs and start acting as good neighbors.
THIRD Reality, Israel was extremely patient with them for many years. Let's face it, if it were London, Paris, Berlin, Cairo, Or Amman that the rockets were being fired at, How long does any thing this would continue before the respective governments who were victims would take strong action? It would NOT be measured in years, months, weeks, or days, but probably in parts of an hour. The Gazans should realize that Israel was highly patient with them and their numerous attempts to destroy world peace and tranquility; whereas, these other entities would in no way be so.
FOURTH Reality, Let's have world peace and tranquility and no more of this unseemingly and unconscionable actions to destroy world tranquility and peace such as those of the Gazans.
Iris89
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» RE: WELL, LET'S CONSIDER REALITY
Posted by: masthead
» Iris, I suggest that you .......
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: IRIS 89 CUT AND PASTE SPECIALIST
Posted by: simonhhh
» RE: WELL, LET'S CONSIDER REALITY [WARNING TO NEIGHBORS OF IRIS:
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: Laplandi on Jan 24, 2009 9:24 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Likening Lenigrad's siege to Gaza attacks and calling the defenders of that city a bunch of extremist is wrong, hateful and DISRESPECTFUL. You probably don't disrespect Holocaust. You don't disrespect genocide in Yugoslavia. Where do you get off defaming the tragedy that was WWII for the Russians? Hitler's army, the invaders, were forced to bomb Russian cities because these cities were being defended??? Do you know what happened to the inhabitants of the captured cities?
"Nearly seventy ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called "the Red Army" held the millions of the town's inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands."
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» Not meant as an insult - Avnery knows the actrocities of history
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Not meant as an insult - Avnery knows the actrocities of history
Posted by: masthead
» RE: Not meant as an insult - Avnery knows the actrocities of history
Posted by: Quannah
» How dare you!
Posted by: Baenz
» RE: How dare you!
Posted by: masthead
» APOLOGIES!!!
Posted by: Laplandi
» RE: How dare you! [Thanks, Baenz & masthead,
Posted by: Squarehead
Comments are closed-
Posted by: gandolfshep on Jan 25, 2009 3:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iraq was completely contained on all sides by countries that hated it and could cause us no harm. You don't go to war on a "well it could, might happen someday."
I was all for Israel stopping the rockets by Hamas but this has gone too far. It has long ago stopped being defense and has become war crimes. It was the radical Hamas firing the rockets not the civilian Palastine people but they are the one who have suffered the most.
This has to stop.
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» as long as you believe
Posted by: weathered
» RE: as long as you believe
Posted by: gandolfshep
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Posted by: Maxemum on Jan 25, 2009 6:51 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» The True Patriot George Galloway Speaks
Posted by: Maxemum
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Posted by: Maxemum on Jan 25, 2009 6:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.vivapalestina.org/
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 25, 2009 9:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every time Israel goes to war UN peacekeepers or other UN facilities get hit, ambulances get targeted, civilians are intentionally put in harms way, illegal munitions are used. When they went into Lebanon a clearly marked ambulance was targeted- the round using the cross as a targeting aid. Funny how the MSM never showed that picture.
Bush is not the only person to have headed a government that is a war criminal.
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» RE: I Have Seen Israel As A Monster For A Long Time
Posted by: Quannah
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Posted by: Maxemum on Jan 25, 2009 10:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeezoWRu1FU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wod2ycln0AQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3t2GY6Ss2A&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BancetxSva0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdXCmytTv_k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P6V3qlHEaU&feature=related
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Posted by: schachlied on Jan 25, 2009 10:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess that's what can happen when your arguments are too successful.
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» RE: Did Counterpunch drop this, or what?! found it here
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
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Posted by: Baenz on Jan 25, 2009 2:15 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“Avnery, as do others see Israel as having no right of self defense." He opposes in the strongest possible way OCCUPATION, further land theft, wanton destruction and killing.
“Israel desires nothing but peace. It has already accepted a 2 state solution.”
These are straight lies – sorry to say this. If Israel would desire nothing but peace … wouldn’t one say it would have accepted one of the many reasonable peace offers? Starting from 1949 (!) were the Arabs offered for the 1st time a comprehensive peace up until very recently where the Arabs confirmed again their offer made in Beirut 2000 … an offer which was answered by Israel with yet another war?
If Israel desires nothing but peace why then did it NOT fullfill one of its 10 obligations outlined in the Road Map?
If Israel desires nothing but peace why then did it sabotage the peace negotiations which took place with Hamas in July 2006?
“… has learned from Israeli and Palestinian sources that just prior to the current crisis, senior Hamas leaders were in active dialogue with Israeli religious leaders in a round of bilateral peace negotiations. Israeli negotiators included Rabbi Menachem Froman, former deputy leader and co-founder of the Israeli Settler movement Gush Khatif; Rabbi David Bigman, head of the liberal religious Kibbutz movement Yeshiva at Ma’ale Gilboa; and Yitzhak Frankenthal, founder of the Arik Institute. Ongoing negotiations had resulted in a BREAKTHROUGH (emphasis added) peace “understanding”, which was to be announced at a press conference in Jerusalem to mark the launching of an extraordinary peace initiative.
…(.)…
“Just hours before the meeting was due to start, the Israeli Shin Bet internal Security Service arrested Abu Tir and Abu Arafa and warned them not to attend the meeting, under threats of detention. The meeting, which offered a major opportunity to obtain Shalit’s release and launch a new framework for peace, was thrown into disarray. The next day, the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) invaded Gaza, and the day after both Abu Tir and Abu Arafa were abducted by Israeli forces, along with a third of the Palestinian Cabinet, provoking a predictable escalation of violence.
Israel simultaneously began conducting covert incursions on to Lebanese territory, provoking Hizbollah’s capture of two IDF soldiers. Credible sources confirm that the soldiers were not abducted on Israeli territory, but inside Lebanon.”
~*~*~
As for the two state solution “accepted” by Israel - actions always speak louder than words:
“Using Mr Halevy’s criterion of looking at what a government does, not what it says, it is clear that—its many declarations to the contrary not withstanding—Israel does not recognise a Palestinian right to statehood in the West Bank and Gaza.”
Furthermore:
Likud: “Flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
National Union: “Absolutely rejects the idea of a Palestinian state between Israel and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.”
National Religious Party: “The State of Israel alone shall exist between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. No Palestinian state or any other foreign sovereign entity shall be established in this area."
Cracking jokes is fine but when this comes to playing with human lifes it is rather despicable.
B.
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» Some forgotten links
Posted by: Baenz
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Posted by: Renfield on Jan 25, 2009 3:46 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hitler believed in racial politics, and was not shy about saying so. Hitler's history, had he won the war, would not have claimed that the residents of Leningrad had provoked the attack. He is on record describing the various Soviet nationalities as racial inferiors, whose liquidation was necessary to create living space for racially superior Aryans.
Hitler spared Paris from destruction while defeating the French in 1940. This was not out of sentimental feelings, it was due to the French government declaring Paris an open city. This means they withdrew all military forces from the city. Hamas is apparently unwilling to similarly demilitarize Gaza.
In 1944 Hitler's V-1 rockets were launched against Britain. It could be seen as a parallel to Hamas, in both cases rocket bombs were used as terror weapons against civilians. But does this comparison help us understand Gaza? I would suggest that comparisons with Nazism do not effectively parallel the war in Gaza.
Those attacking Israeli policy do not, so far as I can tell, suggest a superior approach. The invasion of Gaza is correctly stated to be disproportionate to the rocket attacks on Israel. But should Israel have just answered each attack with a similarly sized rocket aimed to fall randomly in Gaza?
Mr. Averny describes the hatred Israel will reap from the deaths of civilians. While this is true, will it really matter? Isn't Israel already enthusiastically hated through much of the world, and in all of the Muslim nations?
It is stated as fact that the invasion will fail to break Hamas, or even to stop the attacks on Israel. I agree that this is the most likely outcome. But no one knows for certain - only time will tell whether the invasion ultimately works to the advantage of the Israelis. Israel, as far as I can see, has few real options. It is arguably better to take a course of action with only a small chance of success, rather than doing nothing at all.
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» RE: Ignorance of History
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Ignorance of History
Posted by: Renfield
» RE: Ignorance of History [you are right, that my comment was 'liverish', and in that sense, ill-judg
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Ignorance of History [PART TWO
Posted by: Squarehead
» Being blinded can be a bliss (?)
Posted by: Baenz
» RE: Being blinded can be a bliss (?)
Posted by: Renfield
» RE: Being blinded can be a bliss (?) [been re-reading your post with care, Renfield.
Posted by: Squarehead
Comments are closed-
Posted by: xexon on Jan 25, 2009 5:07 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I make a clear distinction between zionism and Judaism. I make it clear in my posts that not all Jews are zionists. I make it VERY clear that blanket actions against Jews for the sins of Israel is unacceptable.
Collective punishement is an Israeli speciality. Let's leave that to those who do it best, so they can stand in front of the world and be judged for it.
I'm normally a quiet person, but this genocide is occuring on my dime as a US citizen. It's time to boycott Israel.
I thank you all for your time.
x
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» We're with you
Posted by: True2Blue
» RE: Disgruntled Citizen
Posted by: Renfield
» RE: Disgruntled Citizen
Posted by: xexon
» RE: Disgruntled Citizen
Posted by: Squarehead
Comments are closed-
Posted by: beijaflor on Jan 26, 2009 1:17 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you for working for the cause of peace.
But most of all, thank you for the empty spaces between your comments and insights. They allowed the 'breath' of your words to penetrate the mind with grace and enter the still place where the heart can 'hear'.
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Posted by: independent1 on Jan 28, 2009 9:19 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Claiming that Israel is "at fault" is not only a moral inversion: it's a plain lie. If Israel is forced to accept "Arab public opinion" of their defense actions: you can bet it'll mean another extermination of the Jews.
With all this looney ideologic rhetoric, it's no wonder Hamas and other Arab propaganda strategists are gaining ground with American Liberals. They're sucked in because of their own mythology; believing as they do that just "protesting" in marches actually does something useful. No logical standards, no mental rigor: just brainless knee-jerk
do gooder nonsense.
OH, and "doing the opposite" of conservatives only works in economics because the conservatives all got the math centers of their brains burned out drinking their own brand of Kool-Aide. Just because the conservatives understand that our defense of those trying to defend themselves against 20 to 1 odds is a GOOD thing, doesn't automatically call for Liberals to oppose the idea (only oppose the morons on the other side).
Someone who was arguing with a bozo detached from facts and reality once advised: Check your premise. The bozo who wrote this article seems to be working from the premise that the Arab / Israeli conflict is some kind of PR stunt. Hey! Great premise. yuk-yuk!
Anyway all the looneys who are trying to re-get their 15 minutes of fame "marching for Hamas" and take over the Democratic Party better realize: we saw how the religious looneys took over the Republican Party and we're saying: Not here, not now, not you, not ever. Go march your dizzy butts off a cliff instead.
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» RE: Moral Inversions are an Old Story [Pointless, trying to penetrate your hardened shell of ignoran
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: oldfatguy on Jan 29, 2009 11:10 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Squarehead on Jan 30, 2009 4:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, at the last few posts, the 'message' of some posters is to mis-read the allegories of Avnery, where he clearly states "what if", but the posters only see 'oh this is such nonsense' or offer extremely spurious counter examples. It's all part of muddying the water. Concealment.
And since it will be exremely insulting (I hope) for these partisans of Zionism to be compared, let me remind them that the previous 'master' of this kind of propaganda was Josef Goebbels, 'Reich Minister of Public Enlightenment' for another bunch of nationalist thugs.
One of these (I believe) is Renfield, above. Having first slated him, for I thought, his obtuse reading of the situation, I then reconsidered, in the light of his response. Tried to address his comments. But, having waited for his counter response, I now see that I was more or less right first time.
"I have studied Nazism in some depth." and then, coyly, "My understanding of Zionism is, in comparison, more superficial."
Yeah, Right. The specialist in 'soft soap'.
Perhaps there is less substance to Renfield than he would like us to believe.
And of course, his key message is of 'let us be reasonable' Hence: "my initial impression is that you are more of an impassioned partisan than a seeker of the truth. If you wish here is an opportunity to prove me wrong.
Renfield, there is no dichotomy between passionate belief and search for truth.
Personally, I'll acknowledge that I am a partisan, a believer in justice, freedom and equality. 'We hold these truths to be self evident, that all (humans) are created equal. They have the right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness' Sound familiar?
So all you obfuscators, with your fake concern for 'balance', to be a 'seeker for truth', try getting a little compassion (& passion) instead.
Or Piss Off.
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Posted by: booshan on Feb 13, 2009 2:15 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How sad for Israel to have had such promise and now have come to this. Better neighbors would have resolved their differences and learned to live together in peace, as they once did.
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Posted by: colindale on Jan 24, 2009 12:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THANK GOD Jewish communities around the world are at last coming to their senses! Killing unarmed civilians, men, women and children with missiles, bombs, white phosphorus, or a bullet through the head is a criminal act - A WAR CRIME. No amount of propaganda from the Israeli embassy will alter that fact. These atrocities are not done in the name of ordinary Jews and we condemn these acts, outright. Judaism expressly forbids such terrible killings. Please use your voice to get President Obama to STOP THE SALE OF ARMS TO THE MIDDLE EAST NOW - tanks, planes, cluster bombs, white phosphorus, guns and spare parts.
Let this senseless brutality cease! Do NOT support the killing of any civilians – particularly children. It is an act against God.
“AMERICAN JEWS OPPOSE ISRAELI POLICY IN GAZA”
Jan 22nd, 2009
“We Shall Not Be a Party to Their Counsel!”
As human beings, we are shocked and appalled at the mass destruction unleashed by the State of Israel against the people of Gaza in its current military operation, following years of Israeli occupation, siege, and deprivation.
As Americans, we protest the carte blanche given Israel by the US government to pursue a war of “national honor,” “restoring deterrence,” “destroying Hamas,” and “searing Israel’s military might into the consciousness of the Gazans.”
As progressives, we reject the same justifications for the carnage that we heard ad nauseam from the supporters of the Second Iraq War: the so-called “war on terror,” the “clash of civilizations,” the “need to re-establish deterrence” – all of which served to justify a misguided and unnecessary war, with disastrous consequences for America and Iraq.
But as Jews of different religious persuasions, from Orthodox to secular atheist, we are especially horrified that a state that purports to speak in our name wages a military campaign that has killed over 1,000 people, a large percentage of them civilians, children, and non-combatants, with little or no consideration for human rights or the laws of war.
While the moral and legal issue concerning Israel’s right to respond militarily in these circumstance can be debated, there is near-universal agreement that its conduct of the military operation has been unjust and even criminal – with only the usual apologists for the Jewish state disagreeing.
As Jews, we stand united with another Israel, the patriarch Jacob, who cursed his sons Simeon and Levi for massacring the people of Shechem in revenge for the rape of their sister Dinah. Like Jacob, “we shall not be a party to the counsel of zealots. We shall not be counted in their assembly. (See Genesis 34. 49: 5-7).
As Jews, we stand united with the Jewish sages who rejected the zealotry of the Jewish “terrorists” at Masada, those who masked ethnic tribalism in the cloak of “self-defense” and “national honor.”
Finally, as American Jewish progressives, and as human beings, we condemn Hamas and Israel for violating the human rights of civilians on both sides, although we do not necessarily declare these violations to be morally or legally equivalent. We affirm the rights of both Israeli and the Palestinian peoples to self-determination and self-defense, as we affirm the rights of both Israelis and Palestinians to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Rabbi Leonard Beerman
Rabbi Brant Rosen
Rabbi Rebecca Lillian
Rabbi Haim Dov Beliak
Tony Judt, NYU
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» RE: Jews Oppose Israel
Posted by: ekinney
» RE: Jews Oppose Israel
Posted by: lenioui
» RE: Jews Oppose Israel
Posted by: weathered
» RE: Jews Oppose those who would destroy you.
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: Jews Oppose those who would destroy you.
Posted by: weathered
» RE: Jews Oppose those who would destroy you.
Posted by: using
» RE: Jews Oppose those who would destroy you.
Posted by: hilaryuk
» RE: Jews defend themselves against the horror of war and their place as progressives instead of
Posted by: using
» RE: Jews defend themselves against the horror of war and their place as progressives instead of
Posted by: using
» RE: Jews defend themselves against the horror of war and their place as progressives instead of
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Jews Oppose part 2
Posted by: using
» @using - A FEW POINTS
Posted by: Baenz
» RE: @Bienz - A FEW POINTS from Using
Posted by: using
» RE: @Bienz - A FEW POINTS from Using
Posted by: Baenz
» RE: @Bienz - A FEW POINTS from Using
Posted by: using
» RE: Jews Oppose part 2
Posted by: babs
» Art. 49 of the Geneva Convention
Posted by: pierrot
» RE: Jews Oppose Israel
Posted by: NYCartist
» RE: Jews Oppose Israel
Posted by: using
» RE: Jews Oppose Israel
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Jews Oppose Israel:"using",are you addressing me?
Posted by: NYCartist
» RE: Jews Oppose Israel
Posted by: woodford54
» The most moral army in the world...NOT
Posted by: brianct
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Harris20 on Jan 24, 2009 1:16 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israeli leaders have gone too far this time. The type of military weapons are not the conventional type normally used. In fact, they seem experimental.
The use of Dense Inert Metal Explosives, is one example; they are packed with tungsten powder which produces intense explosion at knee level and once inside the body becomes hard to detect and is extremely carcinogenic which produces an aggressive form of cancer.
"But someone's entire abdomen will be ripped open, and only after searching will we find a miniscule hole in the skin. Then we will find small black dots all over the organ, but we don't know what they are."
“The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the UN's nuclear watchdog, said it would look into a claim made by the ambassadors of a number of Arab nations that Israel used depleted uranium in its recent attacks on Gaza. “
“Amnesty International said it was "undeniable" that Israel had used white phosphorus in crowded civilian areas, contrary to international law, charging that this amounted to a war crime. “
Yet...
"Let me be clear: America is committed to Israel's security and we will always support Israel's right to defend itself against legitimate threats," Mr Obama said.
President Obama says he is “deeply concerned and his “heart goes out to Palestinian civilians”.
I hope these just aren't words.
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» Hold Obama Accountable to the American People
Posted by: David/Daoud
» That was then - but Obama was betrayed - he learns fast!
Posted by: pierrot
» RE: xperimental Weapons
Posted by: beijaflor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DrBrian on Jan 24, 2009 1:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www. thedailystar.net/ story.php?nid=72015
(Sorry, you'll have to delete the spaces).
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» RE: We're All Palestinians Now
Posted by: rinthy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wisegalah on Jan 24, 2009 2:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Established on the basis of ethnic cleansing which has continued over sixty years.
Many of its leaders were terrorists themselves and just as ruthless and hate-filled as any other terrorist or blackshirt.
Continues to justify its existence with the hisory of extermination of jewish people in Europe, while perpetuating the same policies in Gaza and the West Bank. Yes some of your people then were victims but now you are the murders of children, the ethnic cleansers and the liars.
After all what is the difference between the Nazi policy of 'lebensraum' and the zionist idea that the land was given specially to them?
Really?
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» RE: Israel the criminal state.
Posted by: kick
» RE: Israel the criminal state.
Posted by: babs
» RE: Israel the criminal state. Israel is the TERRORIST state also.
Posted by: symcokid
» Not in 2009 !
Posted by: David/Daoud
Comments are closed-
Posted by: helen_0f_romford on Jan 24, 2009 5:57 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is the Israeli govt doing this and it's not even supported by all of the jews in Israel, let alone by the majority of jews in the world. To allow this to discussion to degenerate into some sub-Ickian conspiracy rant demeans the very real suffering of those in Gaza and the West bank.
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» Yes, Helen, his comment was borderline BUT...
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: On "not seeing them as fully human"...
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: On "not seeing them as fully human"...
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: On "not seeing them as fully human"... PART TWO
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: On "not seeing them as fully human"... PART THREE
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: On "not seeing them as fully human"... PART FOUR
Posted by: Squarehead
» So, when Alex Jones sucked your brains out, did he
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: On "not seeing them as fully human"...
Posted by: hilaryuk
» BUT...nothing
Posted by: helen_0f_romford
» I agree.
Posted by: Hechicera
» RE: I agree.
Posted by: babs
» RE: Any criticism of the Jews is called antisemitism
Posted by: EncinoM
» permission to Vomit
Posted by: weathered
» RE: permission to Vomit
Posted by: EncinoM
» Was it reason and logic...
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: Any criticism of the Jews is called antisemitism
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
Comments are closed-
Posted by: 2thepoint on Jan 24, 2009 3:20 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately the UN is a paper tiger and the world is powerless to stop these daily attacks so they essentially leave Israel no choice.
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» Try reading the article next time
Posted by: True2Blue
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: moflard
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: True2Blue
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: True2Blue
» RE: Try reading the article next time
Posted by: dragonlady620
» RE: Paper tigers!
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» RE: Paper tigers!
Posted by: Maxemum
» RE: Paper tigers!
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Correct, Correct, Correct, Correct...
Posted by: simonhhh
» You stupid! Sderot is rightly and justly bombed.
Posted by: pierrot
» RE: You stupid! Sderot is rightly and justly bombed.
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» And Israel leaveS us....
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: Paper tigers!
Posted by: hilaryuk
» RE: Paper tigers!
Posted by: koolwoman
Comments are closed-
Posted by: phindrup on Jan 24, 2009 3:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By: Moshe Dayan
Date: 4 April 1969
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» Thank you for your contribution to understanding.
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: Israel is a 'blood stained monster'!
Posted by: Hechicera
Comments are closed-
Posted by: weathered on Jan 24, 2009 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Carnival/Princess/Cunard
see the listings on the israeli theft exchange
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» RE: Boycott all things Israeli
Posted by: Maxemum
» RE: Boycott all things Israeli
Posted by: weathered
» RE: Boycott all things Israeli
Posted by: rinthy
» RE: Boycott all things Israeli
Posted by: Maxemum
» RE: Boycott all things Israeli
Posted by: weathered
» RE: would have to start with boycotting US government
Posted by: MeyravLevine
» Website- "Who Profits From The Occupation"
Posted by: Defenestrator
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Maxemum on Jan 24, 2009 6:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These are must see videos. You'll have to remove the spaces after you have copied them into your browsers. I have a feeling that these won't be on youtube for long so take advantage and educate yourselves.
http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWqFxLCEGGY&feature=channel
http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlgfkJzR1-8&feature=channel
http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc89WsXY4II&feature=channel
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» RE: Breaking: Video Coming Out Of Palestine...
Posted by: rinthy
» RE: Breaking: Video Coming Out Of Palestine...
Posted by: Maxemum
» Thanks
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: Thanks
Posted by: Maxemum
» the question is who is resposible and not civialn story
Posted by: mikeben1
» RE: the question is who is resposible and not civialn story
Posted by: Maxemum
Comments are closed-
Posted by: navy-vet on Jan 24, 2009 6:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nations like Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia and Franco's Spain, that the world knows are led by violent, aggressive megalomaniacs, are expected to act brutally and without regard for world opinion. Their reputations can't be damaged further. Those who've claimed to possess a higher vision and benign moral conscience, like Israel, the United States, ancient Rome and the British Empire, are condemned for hypocrisy. People everywhere yearn for a beacon of hope and honor, and when claims of morality are exposed as obvious lies, then a land, a religion or a person becomes a wolf's head--despised for the disappointment of failing self-proclaimed high ideals as much as for barbaric actions. When public good-will is replaced by turning away in disgust, that's when we know that the downward spiral has been recognized. Obama's America has (at least temporarily) gained a second chance. I hope Israel will, but the prospects right now are poor.
This article was written on January 12th, BEFORE the vital food, water and medical supplies housed within the UN compound were deliberately targeted and destroyed.
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» Resisting AIPAC
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: esisting AIPAC
Posted by: grn1
» What's that about guy sales?
Posted by: David/Daoud
» GUN, you idiot, not guy (lol)
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: GUN, you idiot, not guy (lol)
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
Comments are closed-
Posted by: EncinoM on Jan 24, 2009 9:41 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I am waiting for you to quote directly from the Protocols of Zion
Posted by: Quannah
Comments are closed-
Posted by: chance garden on Jan 24, 2009 1:33 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: ekinney on Jan 24, 2009 7:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Israel lost its way 6,000 years ago - AMEN.
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: Israel lost its way 6,000 years ago - AMEN.
Posted by: rinthy
» RE: The Bible is not Silly; Especially in the context of this discussion
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: The Bible is not Silly; Especially in the context of this discussion
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Mixing the Bible and politics IS ALWAYS SILLY
Posted by: DCostello2
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jan 24, 2009 7:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As far as the Israeli regime is concerned, they reap what they sow for themselves. The larger problem is that--rightly or wrongly--a bad Israel is bad for everybody, not just Israelis. While Jewish victimhood has certainly been exaggerated and exploited by Israel, the US, and others, antisemitism is still real, as history has shown. Israel's frittering away the support and compassion for Jews which has been somewhat justified since WWII has much bigger and unfortunate implications for many more than just the Israelis and Palestinians.
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» Resist the NWO is what happens when people listen to...
Posted by: EncinoM
» What Israel fears most?
Posted by: weathered
» RE: What Israel fears most?
Posted by: EncinoM
Comments are closed-
Posted by: David/Daoud on Jan 24, 2009 7:43 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. It would wake people up.
Posted by: rinthy
» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. It would wake people up.
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. It would wake people up.
Posted by: rinthy
» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. It would wake people up.
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. It would wake people up.
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. It would wake people up.
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. It would wake people up.
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. It would wake people up.
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» RE: Yes, it WOULD lessen the pain. [Any turn round in Germany was due to the policies implemented by
Posted by: Squarehead
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GuitarBill on Jan 24, 2009 12:19 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: jbpazz on Jan 24, 2009 7:51 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The war now over it is definitely back burner stuff. Hamas now battles Fatah for control of foreign aid. Both parties want to convert the donations into fat offshore accounts.
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» RE: At War's End the Real Battles for Foreign Aid Begin
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» What absolute cynical bullshit !
Posted by: David/Daoud
» YOU ARE A SICK FUCK
Posted by: charlieparisek
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jan 24, 2009 8:04 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Sometimes you actually make a little sense.....
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: Sometimes you actually make a little sense.....
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Dude, ANNA always makes sense
Posted by: beijaflor
» You can NOT be serious!
Posted by: Baenz
» Baenz, please relax.....
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: ENOUGH HISTORY LESSONS, THANK YOU
Posted by: masthead
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Len Miller on Jan 24, 2009 9:44 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Notwithstanding the strength of permitting dissent and open discussion, it does not always produce sane arguments. Proof positive is the thought process and writings of Uri Avnery. For some reason, Avnery, as do others see Israel as having no right of self defense. For some strange reason, they see Israel as different from all other Nations on this earth. They cannot possibly think that other nations would stand for their populations, their children, their men and women being attacked by hundreds of rockets daily, day after day. Having to live in bomb shelters--- Having to cancel schools that are the subject of attack. Having to counsel their children from the fear and shock of bombardment (so poorly reported in the World) Israel, unlike anyone else in the World, should stand mute. Israel should permit its citizenry to suffer. Jews should just take it. Jews should stand by and permit their fellow Jews to suffer. And, they should do so - as is the latest argument- because Hamas was elected. (By the way, so was Hitler). Well simply because the people of Gaza who were left a thriving economy and a wonderful irrigation system by Israel, chose to elect an organization that seeks no peace with Israel and sees ALL of Israel as "occupied territory" does not mean that Israeli's should be harmed and killed. No, it meant just the opposite for the Gaza population.
Respectfully, Mr.Avnery, I understand the desire for peace. Any sane person wants peace. But, peace on what terms, the complete destrucion of Israel? Is that a term acceptable to you?
I have few questions for you. Do you truly believe that Israel is a war mongerer? Do you truly believe that Israel wants to live in a war like state rather than a peaceful one? Do you truly believe that Israel has a real partner in Hamas in the peace process? Do you truly believe that Hamas whose aim is the complete destruction of Israel and the Jews desires peace and a two state solution? If you can truly answer all of these questions Yes-- then either you are a fool or at the very least ignorant as to the Hamas covenant, the history of the State of Israel since its inception and have forgotten the lessons we all should have learned from the Holocaust.
Israel desires nothing but peace. It has already accepted a 2 state solution. However from its inception, it has been attacked and attacked again and again by the Arab nations and the "refugees" used by the Arab Nations in their Public relations efforts. Mr. Avnery, if you really want to make a contribution to peace (and I recommend this to all on this site and this commentary), find a partner for Israel to speak to,discuss and negotiate with toward a peaceful solution and you will have benefitted the World, the refugee pawns, Israel and we can all move forward in peace.
Until such time as you find those partners for Israel to deal with, there will be conflict. Conflict because no sovereign nation will suffer attack nor default on its obligation to defend its citizens. If you think it is different for Israel, you are simply wrong.
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» RE: VEN AN ISRAELI CAN BE WRONG
Posted by: crazy carlos
» RE: VEN AN ISRAELI CAN BE WRONG
Posted by: weathered
» Israel's most effective Lie ?
Posted by: weathered
» RE: AGAIN TYPICAL ZIONIST PROPAGANDA
Posted by: simonhhh
» YOU ARE GUILTY
Posted by: charlieparisek
» RE: VEN AN ISRAELI CAN BE WRONG
Posted by: babs
» RE: VEN AN ISRAELI CAN BE WRONG
Posted by: Quannah
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Artra on Jan 24, 2009 10:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WHAT IS URGENT, FOR THE JEWS AND NORTHAMERICANS SAKE, IS TO PUT ON EVERY BODY'S
SIGHT THE WHOLE NET OF ZIONIST POWER, HERE -SPECIALLY AT THE WHITE HOUSE AND CONGRESS- AND ALL OVER THE WORLD
AND EXCUSE ME, BUT LET'S DEMAND OBAMA WHO IS HE MAINLY WORKING FOR.
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» Oh yes...very good question
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: ahm Emmanuel or Obama or Both ruling the country?
Posted by: wewokaokie
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Garvagh on Jan 24, 2009 10:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Bill Moyers should stick to what he knows for a fact
Posted by: David/Daoud
Comments are closed-
Posted by: simonhhh on Jan 24, 2009 12:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Meanwhile the foolish Israeli Leadership are leading the Israelis into the shithouse...
YouTube - UK Jewish MP Israel acting like Nazis
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=VEFw2tD2ySg
Watch and be horrified and disturbed...
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: GuitarBill on Jan 24, 2009 3:12 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or, if you're really feeling ambitious, go play in the freeway.
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» RE: Go back to Rense. com's board
Posted by: weathered
» Rense is a liar who spreads disinformation, paranoia and hate.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: ense is a liar who spreads disinformation, paranoia and hate.
Posted by: weathered
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Maxemum on Jan 24, 2009 3:03 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http ://whatreallyhappened.com/
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» RE: Gaza Updates at the following link.
Posted by: drmali2001
» RE: Gaza Updates at the following link.
Posted by: Maxemum
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Defenestrator on Jan 24, 2009 3:42 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Q & A Part 1
Q & A Part 2
Q & A Part 3
Q & A Part 4
Q & A Part 5
Q & A Part 6
Q & A Part 7
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» Thanks
Posted by: Hechicera
Comments are closed-
Posted by: YHShVH on Jan 24, 2009 5:38 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» All religions use different words to describe the same indescribable omnispresent quality of quanta.
Posted by: chance garden
» RE: Fewer Palestinians died in Gaza than Jews slaughtered by Mohammed at Khyber in 629 C.E.
Posted by: Hechicera
» RE: Fewer Palestinians died in Gaza than Jews slaughtered by Mohammed at Khyber in 629 C.E.
Posted by: masthead
» RE: Fewer Palestinians died in Gaza than Jews slaughtered by Mohammed at Khyber in 629 C.E.
Posted by: gandolfshep
» RE: Fewer Palestinians died in Gaza than Jews slaughtered by Mohammed at Khyber in 629 C.E.
Posted by: gandolfshep
» HAVE YOU EVER READ THE TORAH?
Posted by: charlieparisek
Comments are closed-
Posted by: iris89 on Jan 24, 2009 8:08 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Gazans went looking for trouble by being extremely bad neighbors and predictably found it.
Those who seek to destroy world peace and tranquility by lighting the proverbial fuse by firing rockets at their neighbors bring on their own misery - they alone are responsible for what happens to their infrastructure.
It is very regrettable that some groups do NOT know how to be good neighbors and further world peace and tranquility.
FIRST Reality, None of the destruction we saw happen on the world news needed to happen. Now why did it happen? Simple the Gazans brought it on themselves by committing almost daily atrocities and provocations against their neighbors, the State of Israel; i.e., by being bad neighbors and trying to destroy world peace and tranquility. Look at the facts:
"You live every day with a threat of a rocket falling from the sky. No human being can live in a state like this," Ban said. "I expect basic humanitarian law to protect civilian life to be respected and restored and not violated as Hamas has done." [source - USA Today News - World - 1/20/2009]
Someone needs to get real and STOP playing dumb - every action as a reaction opposite in direction - and the "brains" in Gaza should have realized that - how dumb can you get? Do you think the United Kingdom would suffer as much patience as Israel did for about eight years if someone started shooting rockets at London, or the French if someone started shooting rockets at Paris? Let's be real, the response would NOT be measured in days, weeks, months, or years as was the State of Israel, but would be almost immediate.
SECOND Reality, All need to be showing love to their neighbor which obviously the Gazans forgot. All need to be showing love to their neighbors including Jews (Hebrews) and telling them of the first step toward salvation given at John 14:6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (Authorized King James Bible; AV). Messages of hate assist no one in learning the truth per John 8:32, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (Authorized King James Bible; AV).
YET THE GAZANS GO SO FAR AS TO SAY THEY ARE OUT TO DESTROY THEIR NEIGHBOR AND THEN ACT STUPID WONDERING WHY THEIR NEIGHBOR DOES NOT LIKE THEM. Now these are the words of HATE, NOT LOVE AND PEACE; to wit, they are out to destroy world peace and tranquility and have recently done a pretty good job of it. You get back what you show to others - sometimes in many folds. The Gazans need to learn this and stop buying rockets to hurt their neighbors and start buying food and necessities instead; i.e., they need to stop crying false tears about their humanitarian needs and start acting as good neighbors.
THIRD Reality, Israel was extremely patient with them for many years. Let's face it, if it were London, Paris, Berlin, Cairo, Or Amman that the rockets were being fired at, How long does any thing this would continue before the respective governments who were victims would take strong action? It would NOT be measured in years, months, weeks, or days, but probably in parts of an hour. The Gazans should realize that Israel was highly patient with them and their numerous attempts to destroy world peace and tranquility; whereas, these other entities would in no way be so.
FOURTH Reality, Let's have world peace and tranquility and no more of this unseemingly and unconscionable actions to destroy world tranquility and peace such as those of the Gazans.
Iris89
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» RE: WELL, LET'S CONSIDER REALITY
Posted by: masthead
» Iris, I suggest that you .......
Posted by: David/Daoud
» RE: IRIS 89 CUT AND PASTE SPECIALIST
Posted by: simonhhh
» RE: WELL, LET'S CONSIDER REALITY [WARNING TO NEIGHBORS OF IRIS:
Posted by: Squarehead
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Laplandi on Jan 24, 2009 9:24 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Likening Lenigrad's siege to Gaza attacks and calling the defenders of that city a bunch of extremist is wrong, hateful and DISRESPECTFUL. You probably don't disrespect Holocaust. You don't disrespect genocide in Yugoslavia. Where do you get off defaming the tragedy that was WWII for the Russians? Hitler's army, the invaders, were forced to bomb Russian cities because these cities were being defended??? Do you know what happened to the inhabitants of the captured cities?
"Nearly seventy ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called "the Red Army" held the millions of the town's inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands."
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» Not meant as an insult - Avnery knows the actrocities of history
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Not meant as an insult - Avnery knows the actrocities of history
Posted by: masthead
» RE: Not meant as an insult - Avnery knows the actrocities of history
Posted by: Quannah
» How dare you!
Posted by: Baenz
» RE: How dare you!
Posted by: masthead
» APOLOGIES!!!
Posted by: Laplandi
» RE: How dare you! [Thanks, Baenz & masthead,
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: gandolfshep on Jan 25, 2009 3:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iraq was completely contained on all sides by countries that hated it and could cause us no harm. You don't go to war on a "well it could, might happen someday."
I was all for Israel stopping the rockets by Hamas but this has gone too far. It has long ago stopped being defense and has become war crimes. It was the radical Hamas firing the rockets not the civilian Palastine people but they are the one who have suffered the most.
This has to stop.
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» as long as you believe
Posted by: weathered
» RE: as long as you believe
Posted by: gandolfshep
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Posted by: Maxemum on Jan 25, 2009 6:51 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» The True Patriot George Galloway Speaks
Posted by: Maxemum
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Posted by: Maxemum on Jan 25, 2009 6:56 AM
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http://www.vivapalestina.org/
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 25, 2009 9:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every time Israel goes to war UN peacekeepers or other UN facilities get hit, ambulances get targeted, civilians are intentionally put in harms way, illegal munitions are used. When they went into Lebanon a clearly marked ambulance was targeted- the round using the cross as a targeting aid. Funny how the MSM never showed that picture.
Bush is not the only person to have headed a government that is a war criminal.
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» RE: I Have Seen Israel As A Monster For A Long Time
Posted by: Quannah
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Posted by: Maxemum on Jan 25, 2009 10:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeezoWRu1FU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wod2ycln0AQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3t2GY6Ss2A&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BancetxSva0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdXCmytTv_k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P6V3qlHEaU&feature=related
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Posted by: schachlied on Jan 25, 2009 10:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess that's what can happen when your arguments are too successful.
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» RE: Did Counterpunch drop this, or what?! found it here
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
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Posted by: Baenz on Jan 25, 2009 2:15 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“Avnery, as do others see Israel as having no right of self defense." He opposes in the strongest possible way OCCUPATION, further land theft, wanton destruction and killing.
“Israel desires nothing but peace. It has already accepted a 2 state solution.”
These are straight lies – sorry to say this. If Israel would desire nothing but peace … wouldn’t one say it would have accepted one of the many reasonable peace offers? Starting from 1949 (!) were the Arabs offered for the 1st time a comprehensive peace up until very recently where the Arabs confirmed again their offer made in Beirut 2000 … an offer which was answered by Israel with yet another war?
If Israel desires nothing but peace why then did it NOT fullfill one of its 10 obligations outlined in the Road Map?
If Israel desires nothing but peace why then did it sabotage the peace negotiations which took place with Hamas in July 2006?
“… has learned from Israeli and Palestinian sources that just prior to the current crisis, senior Hamas leaders were in active dialogue with Israeli religious leaders in a round of bilateral peace negotiations. Israeli negotiators included Rabbi Menachem Froman, former deputy leader and co-founder of the Israeli Settler movement Gush Khatif; Rabbi David Bigman, head of the liberal religious Kibbutz movement Yeshiva at Ma’ale Gilboa; and Yitzhak Frankenthal, founder of the Arik Institute. Ongoing negotiations had resulted in a BREAKTHROUGH (emphasis added) peace “understanding”, which was to be announced at a press conference in Jerusalem to mark the launching of an extraordinary peace initiative.
…(.)…
“Just hours before the meeting was due to start, the Israeli Shin Bet internal Security Service arrested Abu Tir and Abu Arafa and warned them not to attend the meeting, under threats of detention. The meeting, which offered a major opportunity to obtain Shalit’s release and launch a new framework for peace, was thrown into disarray. The next day, the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) invaded Gaza, and the day after both Abu Tir and Abu Arafa were abducted by Israeli forces, along with a third of the Palestinian Cabinet, provoking a predictable escalation of violence.
Israel simultaneously began conducting covert incursions on to Lebanese territory, provoking Hizbollah’s capture of two IDF soldiers. Credible sources confirm that the soldiers were not abducted on Israeli territory, but inside Lebanon.”
~*~*~
As for the two state solution “accepted” by Israel - actions always speak louder than words:
“Using Mr Halevy’s criterion of looking at what a government does, not what it says, it is clear that—its many declarations to the contrary not withstanding—Israel does not recognise a Palestinian right to statehood in the West Bank and Gaza.”
Furthermore:
Likud: “Flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
National Union: “Absolutely rejects the idea of a Palestinian state between Israel and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.”
National Religious Party: “The State of Israel alone shall exist between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. No Palestinian state or any other foreign sovereign entity shall be established in this area."
Cracking jokes is fine but when this comes to playing with human lifes it is rather despicable.
B.
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» Some forgotten links
Posted by: Baenz
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Posted by: Renfield on Jan 25, 2009 3:46 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hitler believed in racial politics, and was not shy about saying so. Hitler's history, had he won the war, would not have claimed that the residents of Leningrad had provoked the attack. He is on record describing the various Soviet nationalities as racial inferiors, whose liquidation was necessary to create living space for racially superior Aryans.
Hitler spared Paris from destruction while defeating the French in 1940. This was not out of sentimental feelings, it was due to the French government declaring Paris an open city. This means they withdrew all military forces from the city. Hamas is apparently unwilling to similarly demilitarize Gaza.
In 1944 Hitler's V-1 rockets were launched against Britain. It could be seen as a parallel to Hamas, in both cases rocket bombs were used as terror weapons against civilians. But does this comparison help us understand Gaza? I would suggest that comparisons with Nazism do not effectively parallel the war in Gaza.
Those attacking Israeli policy do not, so far as I can tell, suggest a superior approach. The invasion of Gaza is correctly stated to be disproportionate to the rocket attacks on Israel. But should Israel have just answered each attack with a similarly sized rocket aimed to fall randomly in Gaza?
Mr. Averny describes the hatred Israel will reap from the deaths of civilians. While this is true, will it really matter? Isn't Israel already enthusiastically hated through much of the world, and in all of the Muslim nations?
It is stated as fact that the invasion will fail to break Hamas, or even to stop the attacks on Israel. I agree that this is the most likely outcome. But no one knows for certain - only time will tell whether the invasion ultimately works to the advantage of the Israelis. Israel, as far as I can see, has few real options. It is arguably better to take a course of action with only a small chance of success, rather than doing nothing at all.
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» RE: Ignorance of History
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Ignorance of History
Posted by: Renfield
» RE: Ignorance of History [you are right, that my comment was 'liverish', and in that sense, ill-judg
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Ignorance of History [PART TWO
Posted by: Squarehead
» Being blinded can be a bliss (?)
Posted by: Baenz
» RE: Being blinded can be a bliss (?)
Posted by: Renfield
» RE: Being blinded can be a bliss (?) [been re-reading your post with care, Renfield.
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: xexon on Jan 25, 2009 5:07 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I make a clear distinction between zionism and Judaism. I make it clear in my posts that not all Jews are zionists. I make it VERY clear that blanket actions against Jews for the sins of Israel is unacceptable.
Collective punishement is an Israeli speciality. Let's leave that to those who do it best, so they can stand in front of the world and be judged for it.
I'm normally a quiet person, but this genocide is occuring on my dime as a US citizen. It's time to boycott Israel.
I thank you all for your time.
x
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» We're with you
Posted by: True2Blue
» RE: Disgruntled Citizen
Posted by: Renfield
» RE: Disgruntled Citizen
Posted by: xexon
» RE: Disgruntled Citizen
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: beijaflor on Jan 26, 2009 1:17 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you for working for the cause of peace.
But most of all, thank you for the empty spaces between your comments and insights. They allowed the 'breath' of your words to penetrate the mind with grace and enter the still place where the heart can 'hear'.
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Posted by: independent1 on Jan 28, 2009 9:19 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Claiming that Israel is "at fault" is not only a moral inversion: it's a plain lie. If Israel is forced to accept "Arab public opinion" of their defense actions: you can bet it'll mean another extermination of the Jews.
With all this looney ideologic rhetoric, it's no wonder Hamas and other Arab propaganda strategists are gaining ground with American Liberals. They're sucked in because of their own mythology; believing as they do that just "protesting" in marches actually does something useful. No logical standards, no mental rigor: just brainless knee-jerk
do gooder nonsense.
OH, and "doing the opposite" of conservatives only works in economics because the conservatives all got the math centers of their brains burned out drinking their own brand of Kool-Aide. Just because the conservatives understand that our defense of those trying to defend themselves against 20 to 1 odds is a GOOD thing, doesn't automatically call for Liberals to oppose the idea (only oppose the morons on the other side).
Someone who was arguing with a bozo detached from facts and reality once advised: Check your premise. The bozo who wrote this article seems to be working from the premise that the Arab / Israeli conflict is some kind of PR stunt. Hey! Great premise. yuk-yuk!
Anyway all the looneys who are trying to re-get their 15 minutes of fame "marching for Hamas" and take over the Democratic Party better realize: we saw how the religious looneys took over the Republican Party and we're saying: Not here, not now, not you, not ever. Go march your dizzy butts off a cliff instead.
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» RE: Moral Inversions are an Old Story [Pointless, trying to penetrate your hardened shell of ignoran
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: oldfatguy on Jan 29, 2009 11:10 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Squarehead on Jan 30, 2009 4:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, at the last few posts, the 'message' of some posters is to mis-read the allegories of Avnery, where he clearly states "what if", but the posters only see 'oh this is such nonsense' or offer extremely spurious counter examples. It's all part of muddying the water. Concealment.
And since it will be exremely insulting (I hope) for these partisans of Zionism to be compared, let me remind them that the previous 'master' of this kind of propaganda was Josef Goebbels, 'Reich Minister of Public Enlightenment' for another bunch of nationalist thugs.
One of these (I believe) is Renfield, above. Having first slated him, for I thought, his obtuse reading of the situation, I then reconsidered, in the light of his response. Tried to address his comments. But, having waited for his counter response, I now see that I was more or less right first time.
"I have studied Nazism in some depth." and then, coyly, "My understanding of Zionism is, in comparison, more superficial."
Yeah, Right. The specialist in 'soft soap'.
Perhaps there is less substance to Renfield than he would like us to believe.
And of course, his key message is of 'let us be reasonable' Hence: "my initial impression is that you are more of an impassioned partisan than a seeker of the truth. If you wish here is an opportunity to prove me wrong.
Renfield, there is no dichotomy between passionate belief and search for truth.
Personally, I'll acknowledge that I am a partisan, a believer in justice, freedom and equality. 'We hold these truths to be self evident, that all (humans) are created equal. They have the right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness' Sound familiar?
So all you obfuscators, with your fake concern for 'balance', to be a 'seeker for truth', try getting a little compassion (& passion) instead.
Or Piss Off.
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Posted by: booshan on Feb 13, 2009 2:15 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How sad for Israel to have had such promise and now have come to this. Better neighbors would have resolved their differences and learned to live together in peace, as they once did.
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