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The Paradox of Israel: Regional Super Power and the Largest Jewish Ghetto Ever Created

By Ira Chernus, AlterNet. Posted January 2, 2009.


Israelis keep saying they only want security, while they go on electing leaders whose policies make them less secure.
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Trying to understand the psychology of a people at war is a lot like trying to find the bodies buried under a bombed-out building. 

For more than 40 years, I've been watching my own Jewish people in wartime, repeating the same self-defeating pattern over and over. Most Jews say that they want Israel to be more secure, and they really mean it. Yet they support and vote for leaders who perpetuate the conflicts that make Israel less secure. 

I've been digging for decades through the endless pieces of that paradox, trying to get to the bottom of it. Here's what I see now as the bottom layer (though there may be layers further down that I haven't reached yet): The root of the problem lies in the Jews' relationship to the non-Jewish world and, even more, in the way Jews understand that relationship.

Jews have a long, checkered history of relations with their gentile neighbors. Sometimes, in centuries past, they got along very well; Jews felt fully a part of a larger multiethnic community. But most of the Jews who came to Palestine to populate a Jewish state never had that connected feeling. They experienced the human world the way minority groups so often do: There's us, and then there's everybody else; there's a wall separating us from everybody else. So they could never see themselves as part of a larger Middle Eastern community, a web of interactions where each group influenced all the others.

All they could feel was a great disconnect. Before 1948, they saw themselves as a community separated by all sorts of invisible walls from the Arabs around them. After 1948, they had geographical borders that functioned as visible separators, much like the ghetto walls of old. Although Zionism began as an effort to make the Jews a "normal nation," it ended up creating the world's largest Jewish ghetto.

For many Jews, the sense of disconnection was rooted in real history. Some had ancestors who had been separated from gentiles physically by a ghetto wall. Many had ancestors who felt separated by invisible walls of law and social custom, which seemed just as thick and high.

Still others, though, came from relatively well-assimilated communities. They learned to feel separated from the non-Jewish world, for reasons of all sorts. And since the Six-Day War of 1967, many Jews in the United States and around the world, who grew up in very well-assimilated settings, have learned a similar attitude. For them, Israel is the symbol of a gulf that they imagine has always existed, and must always exist, between Jews and gentiles.  

That's why many Israeli Jews, and Jews everywhere who sympathize with them, have a hard time recognizing what the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. taught us: Whoever we are, whomever we live with, all the members of a community are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. That's not a moral platitude. It's a poetic way of stating a commonsense observation of fact: Whatever we do is bound to affect others in our community, just as what they do affects us; we are all responding to each other all the time.

No matter how isolated one group may feel, it is always interacting with the groups around it. A minority group knows that it's responding to the majority. It has a harder time seeing how the majority is responding to it. But in fact, the relationship is always mutual. And when anyone on either sides commits violence, the violence is actually a product of the ongoing pattern of relationship, although the majority typically holds the upper hand when it comes to force. 

Since so many Jews in Palestine could not recognize that network of mutuality, they could not see how much the Arabs were responding to them. They saw themselves simply living their ordinary lives, minding their own business, on their side of the invisible wall. When the first Arab rocks were thrown at Jews, they seemed like bolts out of the blue. Most Jews could not imagine that their own behavior and their own choices were triggering the attacks. They assumed that the Arabs' had some other motivation -- anti-Semitism, many assumed -- to single them out as innocent victims.

Today, the Palestinian Arabs' rocks still fly. Bullets and bombs and rockets fly, too. And the same great disconnect remains among far too many Jews, both in Israel and around the world. They assume that there is no network of mutuality, no web of give and take. There is simply the Jewish state, trying its best to live peacefully and mind its own business, constantly victimized by attacks for reasons known only to the attackers. All the trouble, it seems, begins on the other side of the border.

This view is at the root of all Israel's military and diplomatic policies and the support they engender throughout the Jewish world. When you see the world through the lens of the great disconnect, everything that the Israeli government does makes sense, including the recent massive attack on Gaza. It's all based on the premise that no changes in Israel's policies can ever affect the basic antagonism of its neighbors.

The famous historian Benny Morris, in a recent New York Times op-ed, described just how things look from inside this great disconnect: "Many Israelis feel that the walls -- and history -- are closing in on their 60-year-old state. … The Arab and wider Islamic worlds … have never truly accepted the legitimacy of Israel's creation and continue to oppose its existence. … The West … is gradually reducing its support for Israel."


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Ira Chernus is professor of religious studies at the University of Colorado, Boulder and author of Monsters To Destroy: The Neoconservative War on Terror and Sin.

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The personification of political Israel
Posted by: weathered on Jan 2, 2009 2:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
arms folded, bottom lip pushed out and all sour in the puss because they can't and won't play in the same sandbox w/the other kids.

Here's a country w/WMD, its manipulating hands all over our Wallet and the emotional development of an 8th grader who has no friends and doesn't care why?

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» RE: it is across the board. Posted by: Lauren
» I followed yer link Posted by: Von
Great story
Posted by: Lauren on Jan 2, 2009 2:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is another reason to come back to AlterNet again and again. This story is exactly the kind of reporting that moves the ball towards making a field goal.

THANK YOU!

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LOADED PHRASE: "the Largest Jewish Ghetto Ever Created"
Posted by: FREE SPEECH on Jan 2, 2009 2:42 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The phrase used in the title of the article, "the Largest Jewish Ghetto Ever Created," is an extremely loaded and misleading phrase.

Israel is not a GHETTO - it is a country, a country with an ethnically Jewish majority.

A Jewish country (namely: Israel) is sorely needed because as a stateless (or perhaps more accurately, territorial-less) group for very many centuries Jews the world over have encountered so many problems precisely because of the fact that that they were a rootless ethnic minority living amongst other larger ethnic groups who would tolerate so many of these "nomadic outsiders" in their midst. The main reason Jews as a group has survived so long is because they often have just packed up and left countries or territories when things go too bad for them (where they were hounded out, for instance) or were being persecuted and went in search of greener pastures. However, many ask if this is 'fair' or just due to the fact that the majority of other groups in the world are held in place and in check by national boundaries, economies, laws, and cultures - while Jews are for the most part not bound by these norms because they live transnationally (exiles, basically) amongst other groups who do not always tolerate their presence well because of the natural territorial instincts of groups and nations.

There are many historians and scholars, both Jewish and non-Jewish, who have wrote and talked about how much of the antisemitism encountered by Jews is due to this fact...that Jews are an outsider/nomadic/stateless ethnic group living among other groups and as such have not gained the necessary 'statecrafting skills' which are badly needed by groups for building and maintaining an actual country or territory with an organic political system and set of laws, an economy, a national culture, a sense of being a real community of people instead of a scattered and persecuted ethnic group who lives amongst other groups - in this respect Jews are kind of like the Roma people (or "gypsies") except Jews are much more educated and wealthier than the Roma...this has provoked much resentment because Jews have historically gained power in many societies all out of proportion to their meager numbers due to their general intelligence, mercantile abilities, and fragmentedness in the countries of others which gives them some advantages over the rooted group. But the question is: would this be the case if Jews formed their own country and set out upon the task of (re)building a state from the ground up again?

So, in the interest of Jewish preservation/continuity and security, a Jewish country (Israel) is clearly necessary to help provide a sorely needed home for so many of the Jews of the world who are, as stated in this article, a (sometimes persecuted) group of rootless "outsiders" who are very much beholden to the national and territorial will of other numerically larger groups. Some Zionists have theorized that the 'collective Jewish psyche' has been in some ways damaged by this statelessness over the centuries - it is true that Jews all over the world have suffered because of their status as outsiders.

Take these quotes by prominent Jews/Zionists as example:

"Exile is one with utter dependence - in material things, in politics and culture, in ethics and intellect, and they must be dependent who are an alien minority, who have no Homeland and are separated from their origins, from the soil and labor, from economic creativity. So we must become the captains of our fortunes, we must become independent - not only in politics and economy but in spirit, feeling and will." - Ben-Gurion

"Exile is the disease, and Israel is the cure." - Jeff Goldstein

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» Roma Posted by: kepstein7777
» And this Posted by: improperly_sedated
» More propaganda Posted by: True2Blue
Philosophers
Posted by: gellero1 on Jan 2, 2009 2:54 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can discuss 'mutuality' and 'interdependence' ad nauseum. But there is one FACT that he fails to discuss. That a faction of the Muslim world will use deadly force to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth.

And to that end, they understand that reasoning, love, mutuality, community MEANS NOTHING. The only thing that really counts is force, power, and the moral commitment to put your own life on the line and be the winner.

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» RE: Philosophers Posted by: cordas
Paradox
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jan 2, 2009 3:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel is the spoiled child of the Western World. The problem is not so much with the Israelis themselves, but that the Western World has handled them with kid gloves and pampered them with the double standard. Perhaps a better analogy than a wall would be a bubble.

The other problem with this article--and any Western media discussion of Israel--is that it seems to assume that Israel's behavior comes from paranoia, anger, or self-defense. It doesn't seem to dawn on anybody that Israelis are capable of hatred, blood lust, and ambition, like any other people. Once again, the double standard.

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» RE: Paradox Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Paradox Posted by: Gisele
In view of recent celebrations....
Posted by: talkville on Jan 2, 2009 4:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It has become dubious to me whether those "Three Wise Men" that appear in narratives as recently demonstrated, were members of any of those 3 main tribal formations which yet still continue, like mad bees in a bottle, to wreak such havoc, death and destruction upon the planet.

I don't think these Wise Men, wherever they may have originated were from any of our more western or northern hemisphere either.

One thing's sure. Yet still they are trying to impose upon us all those tribal forms from long ago. Archaeological and anthropological evidence in form of plentiful bones and crushed and destroyed ways of life continue to prove this. That vehement urge to be not 'a', but 'the' people; the ONLY people; each of the three; an accelerating dynamo of Death.

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And the big "thanks" goes to the enablers such as US, EU, and corrupt dictators in neighboring Arab
Posted by: maxpayne on Jan 2, 2009 5:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
nations such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan to name a few. They've teamed up with the zionists running Israel to provide this great divide.

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The Chosen People
Posted by: PaulDKennedy on Jan 2, 2009 6:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The root of the problem lies in the Jews’ relationship to the non-Jewish world and, even more, in the way Jews understand that relationship", says Ira. One can only agree. The fundamental disconnect is real and almost tangible.

But what defines the Jews' relationship with the non-Jewish world. It is, in my view, the Jewish view that the Jews are the 'Chosen People of God'. This concept of being the chosen people is what defines Jewishness and the Jews' views of the world. It is also the fundamental reason for the 'disconnect'.

When one person or group of persons states bluntly that he, she or they has been chosen by God then they are expressing the view that they are superior to all other people or groups of people. Naturally, this is resented by all the other groups, and outcome is wars, pogroms, ghettos and so on.

So how can we get rid of the 'disconnect'. The only possible way is for Jews to state unequivocally that they are not superior, that they are not the Chosen People of God. But if they do this they will be denying their own sense of self. The impossibility of this denial is what makes solving the 'disconnect' impossible.

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Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» RE: The Chosen People Posted by: dglenn10
» RE: The Chosen People Posted by: leafsong1
Anthropologically speaking.............
Posted by: muktuk on Jan 2, 2009 6:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Worldwide humans are experiencing religious revitalisations whether the religion be Islamic, Christian, or Judaic. Also known as fundamentalism- these social movements are increasingly becoming less tolerant of anyone different.

Judaic fundamentalism is a driving force behind the "settlers" in occupied Palestinian lands.

And witness Christian fundamentalism in the United States and their increasing intolerance of gay marriage, immigrants, Muslims, and yes, even intolerance of different Christian sects.

Professor Ira does explicate how fundamentalists seize political power from the majority- their use of fear and terror.

How ironic that Israelis "fear" these little rockets fired from Gaza when thousands die from cigarettes each year.

How ironic that Americans are terrorised by the events of 9/11, when over 434,000 Americans die each and every year from cigarettes.

Sorry to ruin your new millennium, but humankind has doomed itself by overpopulating this fragile planet.

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survivalism as self-defense mechanism
Posted by: littlepitcher on Jan 2, 2009 7:33 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The most striking fact of Jewish history is that they are a bullied ethnicity. This may be partially from their insistence on education while living among an illiterate majority. These majorities, under the rule of corruption, will loot any minority once that minority accumulates enough wealth to make theft a worthwhile activity.

This could explain the behavior of Islamic nations after Queen Isabella ran the Jews and Islamics out of Spain, after stealing their properties (to subsidize Columbus' fleet, among other projects). At that time, Jews were invited by several Islamic rulers to come to their countries to live.

Standing up to bullies is behavior recommended to all men, and socially prohibited to minorities (and women) in almost all cultures. Thus the hissy fits when Israel arms and fights back. This is not a simplistic argument, just a recognition that Islamic nations are numerous and well-populated with the avaricious, while Israel is a single entity with a proportionally small, educated, achieving populace.

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TIME TO SMARTEN UP
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jan 2, 2009 7:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I grew up in a predominately Jewish area, went to school with and worked with Jews for a long time. Just a thought: the need to identify oneself as a Jew befor anything else might be part of the problem. People who know Jews don't understand antisemitism. I don't. They are as a race of disproportionately bright and very successful people That bothers some people. Support for Israel's actions toward Palestine is not unanimous. Jews practice their religion but they function well in the secular world. Sometimes I think the need to understand is within the Jewish community. How many really believe that randomly killing people, women and children serves any purpose other than to gather more people who don't like you. It's not because of what you are, it's because of what you do that most of the world, including yourselves find appalling. That leaves a historically united people with no choice but to disagree with each other. The U.N. the U.S. cannot sort this out. Atomic bombs are part of the mix here. Perhaps it's time for you to TALK to each other because this level of violence is not acceptable to the rest of the world. Their is no place left for the Palestinians to go. The land becomes water! The world will not stand by while they all die for reasons that are unclear to most of us. Thanks, ANNA

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Israel is a country....
Posted by: manderson on Jan 2, 2009 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...Judaism is a religion. Zionism is NOT Judaism. It is as extreme a racist and xenophobic creed as was ever dreamed up by Adolf Hitler. It is quite possible to be anti-Zionist and NOT be anti-Semitic.

I have wondered sometimes if Israel is REALLY the largest, and perhaps LAST, Jewish ghetto. Part and parcel of the Apocalypic Milleniallist faction of our wonderful Christian religion (sic); a part that is not generally publicized, but should be blasted around the world with large-print headlines; is that after the Battle of Armageddon, the anti-Christ, the Rapture (chuckle), all the tribulations in whatever order they occur blah blah woof woof, is that Israel will be destroyed. Apocalyptic Christianity originated in Britain, as did the Balfour Declaration. What's up with that?

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WHO IS TALKING SERIOUSLY ABOUT ISRAEL RELOCATING?
Posted by: drricklippin on Jan 2, 2009 8:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With the rise of the mind poison of religious fundamentalism on all sides in the MiddleEast who dares to seriously raise the issue of a relocation of a more secular Israel to a more enlightened and secure region of the world?

Or must we endure more and ongoing insane killings and constant fear on all sides in the name of maintaining the current geography?

Feedaback requested.

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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Mythologies and Ground Truths
Posted by: riondluz on Jan 2, 2009 8:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Though the author has some insightful and salient points with regard to the history of the Jews and the making of their nation, I think he misses the mark when he tries to delineate the problem by rooting it to their "relationship to the non-jewish world".
The history (and mythology) of their persecution as a culture (racially they are semitic, as are arabs) is little different than other cultures throughout time.
To imply that any other separatist group would resort to the same mentality as the Jews in building their homeland is specious. It is when your history or mythology is propagandized by your government to justify actions that take from others because you are told you are "chosen" that you begin to court evil by giving power to a few zealots who feel entitled.

I have never been to Israel, but I know that there are many there who disagree with their leadership. Like other nations, the Israeli government does not seem to reflect the will of the people. That is because the government is a sock-puppet for the USA; even knowing that the USA cares naught for Israel apart from its strategic value in the mid-east.

The author speaks of their (jewish) feelings prior to and after 1948, but fails to note the land grab that ensued and the bad will it created. Fact is, nobody in the West gave a shit about arabs; they were nazi sympathizers and had no power of their own. Building up a beholden proxy was the order of the day.

I will refrain from delving into the history of the Israeli State and their past actions, but given a bottomless pocket (our tax dollars) and a vision of a nation-state whose future growth demands the taking of land and resources from their neighbors; the reasons they use to justify it are completely moot, but are designed to play into fear and pride.

I am not an historian and can stand corrected, but I feel two decades of this propaganda and the gift of western arms is what led to their neighbors sentiments (and justifiable fears) and the 6 day war.


And its been a clusterfuck ever since. What is telling is how the Israelites, as a persecuted people, are quite capable of persecuting others. How they can rationalize their situation into a myopia that prevents them from seeing the incredible imbalance of percieved threats. A nuclear power, with the best equipped army (our $ has bought them) in the region vs stone throwers. A death toll of 4 being comparable to 400. An 18 month siege that has resulted in the creation of a ghetto (Gaza) equal to, or worse than, any from which they might have fled. (Remember Shabra and Shatilla? - spelling notwithstanding)

It can only lead one to conclude that every Israeli government, since it's inception, has never wanted peace on any terms but their own; the proof of this has been their continued disregard for the treaties they have signed onto in pursuit of their vision for a Greater Israel.

"If you cannot change their minds, you can change their behavior". Well, of course. But being the main antagonizer, the thief of lands, the leveler of towns, the hoarder of water, the builder of walls, etc... is a sure-fire way to change behavior only for the worse.

Since this is apparent for even the most simple-minded to see (including myself) then one can only conclude that, like the destruction of Iraq, it is by design and intention; propaganda notwithstanding.

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Introspective Extrovert
Posted by: ajgasper on Jan 2, 2009 9:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is very introspective and well written. Even though the basis is Israel's interpersonal relationship with the rest of the world, his poignant discussion is applicable to individuals in addition to other countries, cultures, and societies.

Maybe it's just my nature and character, but I found this article appealing. My perspective is that those who know themselves the best are also the most confident. The strength of their being is characterized by integrity, morality, ethical conduct, tolerance, wisdom, and judgment.

If anything else, it fired off a few neurons in my brain, and got me thinking about things.

An absolutely fabulous article.

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interesting point
Posted by: Kilantra on Jan 2, 2009 11:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"But I don’t live among Palestinians. I’m not in any position to understand them. So I speak to my own people. I point out that we have no control over the choices others make. We can control only our own choices. And it’s only by making new choices in our own community that we can hope to affect the choices of others."

The above statement curiously perpetuates the premise that the writer wants to abolish, i.e., isolated separatism and other. "my own people, my own community" If we all affect one another in this ever shrinking globe, your 'own people'
and 'own community' are all the inhabitants of this planet.

How is it that being Jewish prohibits you from understanding Palestinians? If there is no empathy or stepping into the shoes of the inextricable binary, how can understanding occur?

But the author's notion works if seen individually. There is never going to be a unanimous Jewish or Palestinian 'think'.

It is true that if we want to see change we have to first change ourselves, not others. Therefore the change that must occur is not a citizenry of Jews, but individuals, both Palestinian, Jew, or however you define yourself.


We have to see others as our larger self.

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Israel is to blame for all of their own problems.
Posted by: rafaeltoral on Jan 2, 2009 12:34 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"There’s us, and then there’s everybody else; there’s a wall separating us from everybody else."

Your people built that wall all on their own.
Americas support of Israel is largely the reason the rest of the middle east hates America.

Jews like to bring up the holocaust and play the part of the victim. In reality you are the biggest bully in the middle east. Picking fights with other countries then running and hiding behind your army and the United States. All the while using the media to continue to portray yourselves as the victim.

Get the fuck out of gaza, stay within your own borders, and quit trying to expand your territory. Eventually people are going to get fed up with your shit and destroy your country once and for all. The USA probably wont be there to save your ass.

And tell mossad to quit staging false flag attacks. I wouldnt be surprised if they played a large part in the false flag attack on Mubai.

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Not fair and balanced
Posted by: dglenn10 on Jan 2, 2009 1:28 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The writer, obviously well-credentialed, has not mentioned that 1) the Arab countries attacked Israel in 1948 , at the very beginnings of this new State, setting the pattern that was to follow; 2) the Palestinians have not been able to coalesce around their own government, leaving Israel with no sovereign government in which to negotiate with any hope of legitimacy.

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» Pure fiction Posted by: True2Blue
Bunkered down
Posted by: YogiBear on Jan 2, 2009 1:49 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem of walling others out, is you also wall yourself in. I'd hate to live in Israel for that reason. It's a large part of why I hate the idea of the Mexico border wall as well.

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Otto .
Posted by: otto on Jan 2, 2009 2:11 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Excellent article, Ira! It shows the mentality that the Bush admistration has taken advantage of since 9-11. We HAVE to learn to see things from the others' points of view. I hope I have done this a bit in my life...too slowly, probably. I was brainwashed by the "evil Communism" mentality, backed the Vietnam War completely for about 6 years, and gradually saw how ridiculous our whole outlook was. I basically accepted the segregation position of Texans in the 50's, but wondered about it. By Reagan's time in the 80's I saw clearly the ridiculousness of the Contra War against poor little Nicaragua, and most of our Imperial actions since...including support of Israel against the Palestinians...(and Iran) I hope that our country and world can start with the premise that maybe we and people on opposed sides can trust each other enough to dialogue and look for common peaceful solutions...it's more important than ever now, with the whole world facing possibilities of nuclear disaster and global warming and new diseases rising fronm world poverty, etc.

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the commentsto this article justify the truths of Zionism
Posted by: old lefty on Jan 2, 2009 4:05 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
halftruths, demonizations, references to the worst racist tracts ever written, myths of Jewish attitudes of superiority. I'm waiting for the blood libels...oops that is to be found in every Arab press release and the moralisms of their so called leftist defenders who embody the socialism of fools rather than the real thing. (Oh I'm sorry for reminding us that the politics of Jews, individually and colectively, is often linked to that of the left -- obviously fifth columnist subverting socialism from within as Stalin so well understood.)

the bottom line: Jews have a right to a land and nation of their own, one in which the rights of all (minorities) should of course be respected and protected (as projected by Herzl ideological/organizational founder of political zionism) and no excuses or rationalizations are needed for Israel's creation - a people like any other people deserve a land like every other people. And pacifism and the kindness of Christians and Muslims won't get us there.

Accept the Jews right to our state and then we might even look the other way when our Palestinian neighbors establish their brutal, homophobic, sexist totalitarian regime next door. HYPOCRITES!

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The Great American Ghetto
Posted by: John Nicol on Jan 2, 2009 4:44 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everything said in this well-written article can be applied to the foreign policy and militarism of the United States. The skills of peace must be taught and learned and applied in our society as well as that of Israel for America and Americans to live peacefully in the world. The best idea to implement this that I have found is the bill in Congress to establish a U.S. Department of Peace and a Secretary of Peace. Contact your people in Congress to support this bill, and explain that at issue is a transformation of America and not some addenda to the State Department. Most members of Congress don't get it. Israel would benefit from a Department of Peace as well.

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» RE: The Great American Ghetto Posted by: gzuckier
Israel.... No Right To Exist
Posted by: BrianOfNairobi on Jan 2, 2009 6:49 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing excuses the excess of violence which has beeen perpetuated by the Israeli State.

The people of Palestine suffer, and they suffer constantly, the humiliations put upon them by they who oppress them, the Israelis, they who have no pride.

Israel is an appenadage of pure evil. It is the instrument, the tool, of the devil.

It's behaviour strongly suggests that this insidious state has forfeited all right to existance

Yes ! Without a doubt !

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Prof. Chernus, should you read this...
Posted by: pbutler on Jan 2, 2009 6:53 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've been digging for decades through the endless pieces of that paradox, trying to get to the bottom of it. Here's what I see now as the bottom layer ...

Your conclusions might be more persuasive if you mapped the route(s) you took to reach them. Why do you think the mindset of one cohort of massively-PTSD'd refugees (can you find any who aren't?) is the "bottom layer" of Israel's madness?

We can't see how you tunneled through -

- two generations' worth of cultural evolution in unique circumstances, as affected by a (proportionately huge) continuing stream of immigrants from a vast range of other cultures;

- the use of Israel as a regional pawn by the US, and its simultaneous manipulations of US politics;

- the scapegoating of Israel by Muslim governments & Palestinian leaders to distract from their own crimes and failures;

- generic xenophobia, racism & religious bigotry as a self-reinforcing mindset epidemic in humankind;

- the usual dynamics of modern arms races and military occupations, intensified by money from oil wells & US taxpayers;

- the mutual support networks of hardcore rightwingers in US & Israeli politics, a powerful clique distinct from both governments;

- the constant rejection of "assimilation", without which Jewish identity would have been absorbed centuries ago into those cultures where Jews did "make a connection";

- and several other important factors in play here, none of which can be left out of any in-depth analysis.

Is the idea of a "bottom" even useful in a situation so complex?

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Thank you for the valuable insight.
Posted by: Pissed Off Woman on Jan 2, 2009 6:58 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would add that paranoia also plays a large role in the Israeli mindset: the combination of their history as a people slaughtered in pogroms and the Holocaust, combined with the daily fear imposed by Hamas's rockets and suicide bombing, has kept them from realizing that they are in fact far stronger than Hamas and have killed far more Palestinians than have killed them, that they have in fact behaved with absolutely sick cruelty to the Palestinian people.

Meanwhile, the Palestinians and their supporters err by not realizing that Israelis consider Israel their home, not a colonialist project, and that they are driven above all by fear for their survival.

A quote from Israeli peacenik Amos Oz:

"The Arabs look at us Israelis and can't see us as we really are: a bunch of half-hysterical refugees and survivors. What they see when they look at us is a nightmare image, an extension of the white, oppressive, sophisticated, colonizing Europe coming back to the Middle East with the purpose of oppressing and humiliating the Arabs. We Israelis, on the other hand, look at the Arabs, often failing to see them as an oppressed people, victims of colonialism, paralyzed by identity crises and tyrant regimes. What we see is nothing but an incarnation of our past oppressors: Cossacks, pogrom makers, Nazis. They have grown mustaches this time and wrapped themselves up in kaffiyehs, but they are still out to do the same old thing--cut Jewish throats."

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And than the wall was built!
Posted by: shipmate on Jan 3, 2009 1:03 PM   
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Isn't that the traditional limitation of a ghetto? Ira Chernus, right on, well written and so true.

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Israel wants more land--it ain that complicated
Posted by: yurbud on Jan 3, 2009 9:06 PM   
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They are trying to continue the process of displacing Palestinians they began at the founding of Israel. Moshe Dayan said they would make like intolerable for the Palestinians, let any who want to leave, leave, and see where that process would lead.

It hasn't worked out quite as quickly as they hoped, so they kill more hoping the rest will give up and leave.

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those peculiar jews
Posted by: gzuckier on Jan 4, 2009 1:54 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
werll, good thing we're so clear on what those israelis ought to do in response to an ongoing bombardment after 60 years of continuous war which has spared no family in the country. (why are the jews are so paranoid about antisemitism, anyway?) if israel were a moral and rational country, they would do the moral and rational thing; invade a completely unrelated arab country and wreak unthinkable devastation in revenge for a dozen arabs launching a single attack and killing a tenth of a percent of their population, all the while patting themselves on the back for being humane and liberating the poor oppressed arabs who survive the carnage, despite their shocking lack of gratitude.

and those israelis who disagree with their government policies; why don't they just stop their government's crimes, the way we americans who read alternet have done so much to end our government's horrifying death toll? you know, write an occasional letter to the newspaper and make stern comments in blogs and so on?

well, like i say, it's good that we've solved the greatest human rights problem facing the world. i'm sure the israelis will see the wisdom of our answer.

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