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Corporate Accountability and WorkPlace

Can't Pay Your Mortgage? Trash Your House and Leave

By Scott Thill, AlterNet. Posted February 1, 2008.


As housing markets tank, "trash-outs" are on the rise, leaving owners, lenders and banks fighting over who should pay the clean-up bill.
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On the lookout for disturbing trends? Here's one for your pile: According to a recent article in Fortune, there has been a noticeable increase in not just fraud but arson that has kept pace with the housing depression. Professionals in the insurance and lending industry are bracing themselves for all manner of similar situations, as homeowners either trash or simply leave their trash lying around their houses, often taking off without even claiming their furniture. This is already a dirty problem in the housing business, with owners, lenders and banks having to figure out a way to stick each other with the check when tenants destroy their property on their way out the door. Woe is the person left behind to clean up the chaos.

"We just estimated a trashout yesterday where we're going to have to drain the pool," one Fontana, Calif., resident posted on AgentsOnline.Net, a resource and idea site for realtors, "and the stench from it when you enter the backyard is overwhelming. Then, of course, there are mosquitoes all over the top, and it's been sitting so long without chemicals that it's green on top and murky black on the bottom. We've already had to refuse one pool because of its really creepy condition and I'm not so sure about this one either. [I] just hope we don't find the previous homeowner at the bottom when we drain it."

"Vacant homes attract vandals and depress property values," explained Douglas Robinson, spokesman for NeighborWorks America, a nonprofit created by Congress to offer financial and technical support and training for community-based revitalization. "This negatively affects existing owners and reduces local property tax revenues. But very few homeowners walk away, although those who do believe that is their best option. Of course, trying to get a loan modification so that the payments are affordable is their best option."

As if it were that easy. Especially for those homeowners, including those with good and bad credit, who have seen the light at the end of our current economic crisis only to decide there isn't a house in it. In fact, one could almost see the Wall Street Journal frown with disapproval upon reading the title of their December 2007 piece, "Now Even Borrowers With Good Credit Pose Risks." But the title no doubt was influenced by the comments of Bank of America CEO Kenneth Lewis in the piece itself. It seems that Lewis, whose company recently bought the housing meltdown's poster boy for bad lending, Countrywide, for $4 billion in stock, nevertheless feels confounded that customers of questionable loans would simply choose to abandon ship, er, house. "There's been a change in social attitudes toward default," Mr. Lewis told the Journal. "We're seeing people who are current on their credit cards but are defaulting on their mortgages. I'm astonished that people would walk away from their homes." While Lewis may scratch his head in disbelief, employees of the bank Wachovia have an explanation that might work for him: Homeowners have crunched the numbers and decided their houses are worth less than their mortgages. According to a recent conference call, many of Wachovia's current losses in California are originating not from subprime buyers fallen on financial hardship, but from homeowners who can pay their cleverly structured loans but are just choosing a different fate. "They've been from people that have otherwise had the capacity to pay," a Wachovia spokesperson said on the call, "but have basically just decided not to, because they feel like they've lost equity, value in their properties. It's hard to know right now, but we may have seen somewhat of an acceleration problem … as people have reached that conclusion."

But that is what things usually do when you drive them off a cliff: Accelerate, ever faster. The open secret about the current housing crisis is that it is almost wholly built upon debt, which is to say the opposite of money. Everyone owes everyone: American banks borrow money from overseas, structure bizarre loans at home for Americans, which are then sliced and diced into securities and sold back to the international debt markets. The whole thing is a feedback loop made of bills needing to be paid. The best-kept secret of the crisis, however, is that homeowners at the mercy of those greedy banks and lenders -- including Countrywide CEO Angelo Mozilo, who sold off his stock before the crisis to net a cool $290 million while the company's value shrank to practically nothing -- are bailing out and leaving the banks and lenders to sort out the mess of past-due notices themselves.


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See more stories tagged with: lending crisis, debt, economy, trash-outs, foreclosures

Scott Thill runs the online mag Morphizm.com. His writing has appeared on Salon, XLR8R, All Music Guide, Wired and others.



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Duh. The persom most directly responsible for damage holds the most liability.
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Feb 1, 2008 1:04 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sure, a bank can present terms that are appealing to the willfully (or not) financially ignorant. And those ignoramuses can obtain loans that they may or may not qualify for, if the lender doesn't check their actual employment history/income level.

Wanton destruction is wanton destruction. No matter how you slice it. Destruction born of greed is still greedy destruction.

Actions have consequences. Earth to whomsoever....

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» This is a class issue... Posted by: buffeliscious
» No, of course not! Posted by: J_Mo
» RE: Duh. Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Duh. Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Duh. Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Duh. Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Duh. Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Duh. Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Duh. Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Duh. Posted by: ankhet
» RE: "normal rules of society" Posted by: pangolin
» Fraud is also just plain fraud. Posted by: ABetterFuture
But they trashed my life?
Posted by: rjs on Feb 1, 2008 1:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No person would be able to rightfully argue that destroying property is the answer. But I would suggest that it is understandable. The banks have have seriously brought on their own issues by the greed in which they operate. Both are equally guilty. Both the bank and the consumer. Both equally lied to each other and themselves in many cases. Both were equally greedy with putting their wants above their means. I would suppose that while damage must be paid for, that in reality, the damage runs much deeper than the wrecked lives and possessions, just as the greed that created it does.


Both learn the hard way.
--rjs

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» RE: But they trashed my life? Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: But they trashed my life? Posted by: peacefullaim
» Weapons of the weak Posted by: andabottleof_rum
Just Desserts
Posted by: elt on Feb 1, 2008 2:13 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Banks (and all other related corporations) deserve what they get. They've been screwing the american people for so long it's a wonder it's taken this long for some backlash to occur. I say, if you're going to pack up and leave, make sure you do everything possible to render the place completely unlivable for decades to come. Serves 'em right. Anyone who profits off of someone else's misfortune deserves to be lined up against the wall and shot. Also, that would probably make a huge dent in the overpopulation problem, too. Just a thought.

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» RE: Just Desserts Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Just Desserts Posted by: mejsmith
» RE: Just Desserts Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Just Desserts Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: Just Desserts Posted by: Trazom
» Who's Ox is Gored? Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» Banks don't want foreclosure Posted by: BCcovers
» Banks are out of the picture Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: Banks don't want foreclosure Posted by: nherkowitz
» Same here. Posted by: J_Mo
Buying Opportunity
Posted by: NoPCZone on Feb 1, 2008 2:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I stayed out of the vastly overinflated housing market and know, like any prudent observer, that they also overbuilt for many markets. Too many houses, too big for the market at prices that exceeded the ability of the local wage base to sustain. What that tells me is that in many markets prices will come down- way down and all the bail-outs in the world will not change that fact.

The business people are always running their mouths about how perfect the market is until they get in trouble. I, for one, hope they take a massive sucker punch that deflates the hugely overpriced stock on the market. Then I, with my undamaged credit, will buy on the cheap. I don't want to see anybody bailed out because they were all greedy- from the buyers through the sellers to the realtors and the loan originators.

It's time for the social climbing crowd to begin to live within their means and maybe that will clear their head the next time they decide to support politicians and policies that are against consumers and ordinary people. Pull your kid out of private school, terminate the lease on your gas-hog Suburban, rent a small house or apartment and start to live within your means.

Maybe the next time a union organizer approaches you might actually listen for a change, grow a backbone and do some good for yourself and your community. The next time you vote, maybe you will support candidates concerned with the real issues of working people instead of Neo-Con hot button BS. The next time you buy a house, maybe you will buy something more reasonable.

Meanwhile, this progressive that has been living within his means will watch the real estate market continue to deflate and buy some nice property on the cheap after the dust has settled. Maybe I'll be your landlord.

How do you like your NeoCon economics now?

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» RE: Buying Opportunity Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: Excellent "Analysis" Posted by: Sissy
» RE: Buying Opportunity Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Buying Opportunity Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: Buying Opportunity Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Buying Opportunity Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: Buying Opportunity Posted by: NoPCZone
» Living beyond the means Posted by: naturalbornsolutions
» RE: Buying Opportunity Posted by: Sushi
like companies do...
Posted by: bluepilgrim on Feb 1, 2008 3:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The insurance companies have been playing a similar game for some time. If you get in an auto accident they pay only 'book value', which might be quite a bit less than the individual car is worth, with recent repairs, condition, and all, or less than what it would cost to replace it.

Corporations will let people die because it's cheaper to pay the penalties than make the workplace safe.

One might say these people are just taking the capitalist/corporate view.

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Too bad this country is filled with dysfunctional sick puppies
Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 1, 2008 4:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Their concerns about "losing" their guns, "abortions" going up, god, gays, etc ... and other hot button social issues which has no effect on them is what made it easier for banks and lenders to keep ripping them off. Gubbmint happily bails them out and when that's not enough, they'll turn to money from foreign governments who will in turn slowly take over the country's ownership. So much for an "ownership" society !

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Terrorist
Posted by: HeKnew on Feb 1, 2008 4:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The mortgage crisis is the latest example of calculated, premeditated management by fear and it isn't going to stop until we stop it.

Government of the people, by the people and for the people.

Direct Democracy

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» RE: Terrorist: HeKnew Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Terrorist. You said it! Posted by: Cathyc
» "The Money Masters" Link Posted by: JoAnne
from 1990-97, the UK government let 500,000 families lose their homes because of negative equity
Posted by: Suzon on Feb 1, 2008 4:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That affected an estimated 1.2 million people in a population of about 60 million. The UK government (which had actively encouraged home ownership) did nothing whatsoever for those families.

[Correction: The government did nothing to help them keep the homes they had been encouraged to buy (often their previously secure council flat), but they did put families into wretched B&B accommodation.]

During the same period the 157,000 wealthiest families in the UK received up to £21 billion in subsidies.

Source: Kevin Cahill's Who Owns Britain (2001).

I never read about anyone in the UK trashing their home before it was repossessed. It seems to me that trashing a home would be, in many cases, an indication of mental health. Most people tend to blame themselves or turn to drugs and alcohol.

Maybe the American monarchistic "haves and have-mores" will pause for a moment to wonder what other kind of "acting out" they might be in for.

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The banks and crooks in the financial markets deserve it.
Posted by: leland61 on Feb 1, 2008 5:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If anyone wonders where people got the idea of leaving a bad investment and letting someone else clean up the mess. Look at corporate America. They have been doing it for a century.

I was born and raised in Michigan, the rust belt, where abandoned factories litter the landscape along with their polluted deposits left for someone else to clean up.

Hello!!! This practice has been going on by the monied elite as long as anyone can possibly remember. Now the working classes are gettng the idea. Follow the behavior of the rich and psychotic. Just dump your shit and let someone else worry about it.

There should be jail sentences in the future for a lot of these rich criminals. It won't happen because this country is run for them and by them. The last 8 years could not possibly make that any clearer for those not willfully blind.

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» "The Money Masters" link Posted by: JoAnne
Debt is Not The Problem - It's The Timing
Posted by: opmoc on Feb 1, 2008 5:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The vast majority of people who took out mortgages since WWII are considerably better off financially than those who had no debt and rented. This is despite times of both very high inflation and very high interests rates as well as the opposite.

However the timing is critical - get it wrong by just a few years and you may well be financially wasted.

The reason is that there is a correlation between average house prices and average wages which varies tremendously over time. The trend is only your friend in the short term.

The last big house price crash in the UK occurred around 1989 and it took 4 years for prices to bottom out. Taking into account the high inflation at the time, prices fell in real terms by more than one half. The fall now could be even greater, and take longer to recover as house prices are now over 6 times average wages. Expect them to fall to around 3 times average wages.

However, history doesn't always repeat itself, and selling your house now may not be a good idea, despite the prospect that it will likely continue to fall in value for the next few years.

The reason is, that it is entirely possible that the financial system as a whole could totally crash - with banks going bust. If you sell your house and rent - how can you be sure that the bank where you put any capital will not go bust and take all your money with it?

At the end of the day houses aren't investments but homes to live in and when things get tough you are usually better off, battenning down the hatches and weathering the storm.

Things will eventually get better.

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Save economy Stop foreclosure costing 150,000 as below
Posted by: Adi on Feb 1, 2008 6:32 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Save economy Stop foreclosure (costing about 50,000 each to borrower, lender, and The Balance Economy total estimated loss 150,000 each foreclosure) which is destroying economy and welfare of people; Use technology to reduce costs & interest rates and let market forces with help of Govt thru FHA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, minimize regulations, who basically cover risks and arrange financing and arrange interest rates of below 5 percent in line with Treasury Rate, Fed Rate and charge risk based insurance from poor credit and thus make mortgage affordable to all. And property values will stabilize Estimated national loss due to foreclosures for 8 million homes @ 150,000 each is 1 (One) trillion dollars

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The Bush League
Posted by: Cybershaman on Feb 1, 2008 7:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Bush League solution to this has been to load Freddie and Fannie up with these bad debts. That way they can destroy these two institutions, from the inside, then 'privitize' them (basically selling them, on the cheap, to one of their financial masters). That has been the pattern for decades.

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Is it any wonder...
Posted by: ot on Feb 1, 2008 7:08 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that the same people who were too stupid to understand the terms and potential consequences when they signed on the dotted line for that mortgage would also sink to criminal behavior to assuage their self-imposed misfortune?

...that mean-spirited, self-hating liberals would crawl out of the wood work to rationalize this type of criminal behavior on behalf of these botton-feeders in the name of corporate "greed"?

No wonder at all.

That is why these people are at the bottom and will stay that way, mere fodder for the rest of us to profit from.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Is it any wonder... Posted by: opmoc
» RE: Is it any wonder... Posted by: grn1
» RE: Is it any wonder... Posted by: billwald
» RE: Is it any wonder... only to you Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: Is it any wonder... Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: The real stupid people... Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
more real estate dirt
Posted by: olympia43 on Feb 1, 2008 7:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Humane Societies and other groups are also dealing with large numbers of pets who are simply locked in the house and left when the people leave. Recently our Humane Society took possession of six dogs who had been abandoned to starve when the house was vacated. These six were the survivors, some had already starved.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» You're kidding right? Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: You're kidding right? Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: more real estate dirt Posted by: data23
» RE: more real estate dirt Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt Posted by: Libsrule
» RE: more real estate dirt Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt Posted by: Chromedome2000
» RE: more real estate dirt Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt Posted by: SaraCole
» RE: more real estate dirt Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: more real estate dirt Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt Posted by: SaraCole
» RE: more real estate dirt Posted by: data23
» HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Posted by: Scientz
» RE: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Posted by: Moira61
» RE: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Posted by: Scientz
» RE: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Posted by: Moira61
» RE: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Posted by: Scientz
» Hey Scientz Posted by: Rapunzel
» RE: Hey Scientz Posted by: Scientz
» RE: more real estate dirt Posted by: srimbael
It's the only power people have....
Posted by: stina723 on Feb 1, 2008 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After reading "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein, I now better understand what is happening to this world from an economic standpoint. Disobediance is the one of the only tools left for the people. Until Bush sends in Blackwater anyway...
Hey big banks and shady mortgage lending companies - what goes around comes around.

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» Klein is full of it Posted by: Ambrose Pare
» RE: Klein is full of it Posted by: Morphizm
Not the first time we've been through this
Posted by: SteveO on Feb 1, 2008 7:44 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is the second time within a generation we've done this to ourselves. Remember the 1989 housing crash and the S&L crisis? It was caused by the same thing except on a smaller scale. Property values were inflated and questionable loans were made to well connected people to buy these properties.

We didn't learn a thing from the pain we had then.

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» "done this to ourselves" Posted by: kww355
Simply put, it's revenge
Posted by: scryberwitch on Feb 1, 2008 7:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To me it's crystal clear - retreating populations would do this to their towns and crops ahead of invading forces. Whether you agree with it or not, the rationalization is, "I've spent so much money on this place, only to have it all taken from me and my life ruined. I'm not going to leave anything of value - this bank/lender will not make a penny of profit off this property after I'm evicted."

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A totally different world
Posted by: kungfoofighterx on Feb 1, 2008 7:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lots of people like to give the weather the storm advice. If this is some economic storm it may leave you jobless, in a dead city, with a nice worthless home on the wrong side of town if you try to weather it. To survive this future a house will be a problem not a solution, unless it’s a rental. People are going to have to migrate like American Indians following the buffalo to find fun jobs or to keep homes with value. Tack on all the damn fees and forget it. It’s not worth it. All that debt for some crapy home that’s going to fall apart because it was built with every possible corner cut. People are scraping their damn homes like hunter gathers leaving a camp site. Time to move on were the berries are thick on the vines and the game is fat. I look at the default rates and its like F this. Morally and ethically I refuse to pay somebody those kind of rates. Maybe that’s another reason people trash their places. Or maybe the bank gave the mortgage to a 19 year old who had a good year selling cars or had a trust fund from an untimely death. Party hard and bolt.
Mortgages are some creepy old world thing to me. What are the prospects of having a job or three jobs with decent pay for as long as a mortgage? What is the average amount of time people should expect to be unemployed during their mortgage? Let’s say I have a home and we paid it off after 40 years, but we have little in the way anything else because we had to sink it into our home to keep it from falling apart and paying all of the taxes on it and cover family medical bills when we didn’t have insurance during unfortunate double job change overs while my spouse was going back to school to get that third degree because the job sectors in our city changes so rapidly a degree is only good for at best 10 years and it takes 6 to pay it off not to mention the times I had to go back to school to get a new degree. Most jobs don’t seem to last more than 4 years. We did have some 401K money, but we had to cash it in to go back to school to keep our earning levels high enough so our kids could have a decent start. So now I reverse mortgage it to pay for my retirement and medical costs. My kids get nothing and the cycle of wealth is broken. Modern feudalism. I feel safer investing in things that aren’t taxed like Roth IRAs.

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» RE: A totally different world Posted by: peacefullaim
Insider Trading Anyone
Posted by: JSquercia on Feb 1, 2008 7:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The head of Countrywide cashed his stock just before the collapse sure as hell sounds like Insider trading to me .It certainly seems as if he took advantage of his insider knowledge to get out of town just ahead of the Sheriff Sadly I expect NOTHING will be done to him . I myself would suggest drawing and quartering

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Our 500 year crisis
Posted by: PaulK on Feb 1, 2008 8:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have three problems.

First, we are infested with crooks who will rip us off bigtime. That's always true.

Second, we are infested with a government that doesn't care if the country crashes and burns. That can possibly be partially fixed with honest elections such as with the choice method of proportional representation, which inherently fights campaign bribery.

Third, we are a nation of stooges waiting to be fleeced. We buy high in the stock market and sell at the bottoms of panics. Then we pay outrageous prices for houses, mortgaging half our lives away for the houses, and abandon the houses when the market tanks. Whole cities such as Lost Wages have been built on this madness. I'm sure we could invest in tulip bulbs with the same passion.

I wish that our schools educated all of our kids to be good citizens by running speculations: stock market speculations (based on real live data), housing bubbles (same) and government spending sprees (real live data from Argentina, from Brazil, from our own country).

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It's only a matter of time
Posted by: blue3zero on Feb 1, 2008 8:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before the banking/credit card industries forces the bought and paid for members of congress to impose the death penalty on people who walk away from their homes. I'd imagine the old debtors prison will be making a comeback soon.

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» RE: It's only a matter of time Posted by: willymack
The crooks will be always with us
Posted by: redfrog on Feb 1, 2008 9:16 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and that does not excuse us from steering by our own lights. If I lose my home, I will leave it immaculate. This will have nothing to do with my anger or despair. I am the only one I have to answer to, the only one who will ever have to live with those answers.

These are frightening times and I don't like being afraid or having to face some of the attitudes or behaviors of others who are afraid but none of this touches who any of us are at core. Some of us are not good people, but most of us are.

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Those poor confused rich white males
Posted by: DaBear on Feb 1, 2008 9:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sick to death of this crap. The premise of the article insists upon the assumption that workouts are possible, if not preferable to walking away. The REALITY is people aren't walking away, they're being FORCED to walk away because "workouts" aren't rational let alone reasonable. COuntrywide and B of A don't want a glut of dead properties? Yeah, tell that to the foreclosure guy for Countrywide who bragged to me in the park the other day about how he could "kick 400 people out of their houses in a day." Tell that to the workout negotiator for Countrywide who swears the company is going extinct fast because they can't offer workouts that people can afford.

The assumption that there are solutions is BULLSHIT. It is a LIE. The only solutions, like those offered by Barbara Boxer and Operation Hope, are not being considered let alone entering the thoughts of the money addled ruling class asshats that created, caused and are getting away scott-free with the problem and chaos THEY perpetrated.

Neither B of A nor Countrywide were reasonable with my family. We live in a campground (every 14 days we move to the next one) with a $70K annual income. Why? Because their "workouts" were only $250 less a month than the overpriced loans were originally. Because some rich prick mortgage broker told us (he LIED) the subprime was all we "qualified" for (another LIE). We found out too late. The WGA strike hit and BOOM. God bless 'Merkuh.

Anytime a rich guy makes an excuse, you can count on it being some shade of a LIE. That's who they are... just like their hero, the Chimp-Emperor.

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» Interesting... Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Interesting... Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Interesting... Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Interesting... Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Interesting... Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Interesting... Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Interesting... Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Interesting... Posted by: waxman
» RE: Interesting... Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Interesting... Posted by: mejsmith
» Give it up, EncinoM... Posted by: fsuthai
» RE: Interesting... Posted by: mejsmith
» Do NOT insult CHIMPS! Posted by: veggiegrrrl
It' the contractors that want and revel in this.
Posted by: Landbaron on Feb 1, 2008 9:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They ne