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Corporate Accountability and WorkPlace

Andy Stern: Changing How America Works

By Andy Stern, AlterNet. Posted November 2, 2006.


Something's wrong when only the rich are getting richer, and average folks are feeling the squeeze. The answer isn't more education, or simply electing better leaders. We need widespread change.
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Editor's note: On Oct. 18 SEIU leader Andy Stern was in the Bay Area on a book tour and gave a talk at a crowded event at Lukas Restaurant in Oakland. The event was sponsored by Drinking Liberally, a group started by Justin Krebs that brings together progressives in a number of cities to hear quality speakers and to connect over a beer. The following is a transcript of Stern's talk.

Ercilia Sandoval is one of the people in this country who did exactly what she was supposed to do. She worked hard every day sweeping floors, cleaning toilets and taking out the garbage in some of Houston's most elegant office buildings. She is willing to work hard to raise her two girls. She tried to save what she could, but on a little more than $5 an hour, it's hard to find enough money to pay the bills.

Then she was diagnosed with breast cancer. Ercilia was already a fighter and a leader among her co-workers, but she was probably going to die. And her problem was that she had experienced problems with her health over a long period of time but couldn't afford to go to a doctor, couldn't afford to get health care and now she's worried about what this means for her kids. Her work is dedicated to all the mothers in Houston, Texas, who are janitors, whom she doesn't want to have live through the same thing. She happens to be on the Glamour magazine website right now; she's up for nomination as one of the five women of the year for Glamour.

I wrote this book because people like Ercilia should not work a day and be poor in the richest country on the face of the earth, and certainly not to be dying in this country because they're poor. I wrote this book because I love this country, and I think America is a gift. Its greatest gift is this: People have come here from all over the world, and all they expected to do was work hard. And what they hoped was that their work would be rewarded. What they dreamed about was that their kids were going to do better than they were. That was the American Dream. And despite a civil war, two world wars, recessions, depressions, the American Dream has survived. Until now.

Fifty-two percent of all parents say that their kids are going to be worse off than they are. And the facts now are beginning to bear that out. That's not the America I want; I don't think that's the America we all need. I wrote this book because I think there are answers all around us. But in order to get to the answers, we have to understand the context of the discussion.

This is not our fathers' and grandfathers' economy. We've gone from an economy that's 9-to-5 to 24/7. We're living through the third economic revolution in the history of the world: The first was the agricultural revolution, which took 3,000 years; second was the industrial revolution, which took 300 years; this revolution is going to take 30 years. As we move from a national to an international economy, from muscle to mind work, no generation of people has ever witnessed so much change in a single lifetime.

This revolution is televised, it's Google-ized, it's digitized, it's in your face, on your screen 24/7. It is relentless, and it's unending and it's far from over. But it's not our fathers' and grandfathers' economy. The number of transistors that were produced this year in the world was greater than the number of grains of rice that were grown. The Furby -- that kids' toy -- has four times the computing power of the Apollo spaceship that landed on the Moon. The world is going to send 84 billion emails today. In the late 1980s, there was no such thing as email.

We are as far today from the New Deal, as the New Deal was from the Civil War. I'm sure Roosevelt admired Lincoln, but he built an economy for 1935. And we need to build an economy for the 21st century. Thomas Friedman is partially right, the world is flat -- we now have a much more integrated global economy, particularly as we digitize things all around the world.

We now understand the facts about blue-collar jobs. Those that have white-collar jobs are increasingly going to see them go overseas by 2008. In China, America has its first real economic competitor. Last year, half of the concrete that was poured in the world was poured in China. America had 65,000 Intel Science Fair finalists last year, a record number. China had a million.

If you go to Beijing, where some of us have been ... if you think Washington's a cool place to be with one beltway, Beijing has six beltways. And while we were there last time, they announced they were going to build 110 hotels in Beijing by 2008. China owns a trillion dollars' worth of the foreign currency, and they're not just neutral bankers when it comes to policy. We have real competition.

Companies -- not countries -- are making the rules in the global economy. Of the hundred largest economies in the world, 52 are companies, and only 48 are countries. The sales of Wal-Mart are greater than the GDP of Ireland, or Singapore or Venezuela. The companies are beginning to put pressure on the countries like France about their employment policies. Companies, not countries -- global trade, global finance, global companies. We've got to create global regulation and global government instead of allowing companies to make the rules.


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See more stories tagged with: labor, work, healthcare, unions, seiu, speeches

Andy Stern is president of the Service Employees International Union (SEIU).


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Here we go again with the spin talk!
Posted by: Temporary on Nov 2, 2006 1:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a pretty good feeling how this "great American reform" is going to be carried out, and it ain't going to be a "compromise"

Not even close!

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» RE: Spin as ideology! Posted by: Edward George
contrast
Posted by: rsaxto on Nov 2, 2006 1:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is quite a contrast between Andy Stern and the Bushies for Stern has a lot of great ideas and the Bushies have no great ideas at all. Their bankruptsy of ideas is bringing bankruptsy to America in every major sector. Impeach the Bushies or see a great depression from here to doomsday.

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» RE: contrast Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: contrast Posted by: rsaxto
America's first socialist?
Posted by: Arvy on Nov 2, 2006 1:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Interesting article on how Vermont could soon have a socialist representative: (sorry, had to split the link).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/midterms2006/
story/0,,1937064,00.html

"I tried to make the government work for working people, and not just for corporations, and on that basis I was elected to Congress."

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» California needs to be split up Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Of course he didn't ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: America's first socialist? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: America's first socialist? Posted by: Joshua Holland
I grew up in those years too,
Posted by: spiritsha on Nov 2, 2006 1:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when the winds of change did move our country forward, but who has the time in a 24/7 life to take off and protest? I can get excited about this article, but with this supreme court, no union will ever get to change things. Maybe grassroots work and community education of the public might work. We have to change msm or no one will ever learn what is going on. We have millions of displaced families, where the public knows more about celebrities than what is going on in their communities or their government. I agree with this author, but I cannot see people really getting behind big changes without someway to get that message out into the public.

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Where to begin?
Posted by: anothername on Nov 2, 2006 3:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Changing the world requires extensive complexity. Imagine the Omnibus Spending Bill, with all of its details and hundreds of pages, and that would be but one chapter in the instruction manual for all that needs to be done to change the world. This is not to express cynacism, but to acknowledge that change will not be easy. Of the many comments I could make, I will limit myself to three.

One, we need to be aware that the problem is not only for the future of our children but also for the people who are adults today. Whatever a person's opinions on Social Security and their personal wealth, the program has been credited with dramatically reducing poverty and hunger among older Americans. This means that we now have more children than senior citizens in poverty and going hungry, so the power of bureaucracy has shifted towards helping the youngest. As the support moves to the young, less is available for the older and this is increasing hunger among the elders, but the amount to share is shrinking overall, as well.

Two, change means looking at the small as well as at the large. At a Rosa Parks memorial last December, only three people of the 100 or so attendees took the bus to the event. None of the people driving, including political and religious leaders, thought to be sure the three could reach the bus stop. Where there were sidewalks, and where those sidewalks were not covered with snow and ice, the organizers of the events had placed large signs pointing out where to park that also had the effect of blocking off the sidewalk for pedestrians who had to reach the bus. Similarly, apartment dwellers are not considered part of recycling efforts in most locations - unless they have a car to haul paper, glass, etc. to a central location. In other words, people were feeling good about celebrating the publicity of Rosa Parks, but most of them had no clue as to how the current bus systems in the U.S. severely limit where lower-income African Americans and other residents can work, play, and shop. Yet, those of us Americans who choose or must go without a car, refuse to buy without recycling options, and limit electronics to limit pollution from coal-fired power plants, are being penalized for being responsible by having higher health costs from pollution caused by automobiles and power plants, longer commutes due to sprawl, and going out of our way to make sure items are recycled so ground water isn't polluted by excess landfills or trash incinerators.

Three, we need to take back investment resources. Where do most Americans have their wealth? For some it is in a house, but for many it is in retirement funds. Do the rules for those funds allow us to invest in our local communities? No. Instead, we invest in mutual funds or money markets that help to fund such small, local businesses as Microsoft, Wal-Mart, and the new bio-fuel plant somewhere in Asia. We need to discuss opening up investment options for these retirement funds so a low-income family might live in an apartment building that is part of an IRA REIT (real estate investment trust), with a portion of each month's rent going towards buying a share in the REIT. Then, even without being a homeowner, if the tenant runs into financial difficulties and is evicted or needs to move elsewhere, that person would still have an investment in the apartment building (and possibily apartment management company). In addition, society would benefit because a REIT could be set for an apartment building with conditions of income limits for a 100 years, not the 20 years or fewer that government progams require developers to offer units for tax breaks.

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» co-op Reit idea fantastic Posted by: plantland
» IRA REIT Posted by: tpjd
Profits vs. wages
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Nov 2, 2006 3:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The gist of it is that many companies are making record profits.

A good example of this in Canada would be the banks. They can well afford to give their employees at least cost of living increases, but instead are holding the lid on wages, slashing workforce AND increasing the fees they charge to their customers all at the same time!

Why can they get away with it? What can be done about it?

In the end, these companies are even destroying themselves, because most of their customer base will no longer be able to afford their products. The system is becoming increasingly imbalanced.

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Everybody talks about the (fill in the blank)
Posted by: oneyedjack on Nov 2, 2006 4:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Okay Andy,
Recognizing that you have done some good things, but I worked with some of your folks (administrative) for a short time in Miami and I have to tell you...you need to be paying your own people a bit more than poverty wages as well. That said, as a multi-generational union descendant I want to tell you if you ain't in the streets aka "general strikes," not too much is gonna change. 'course, unions are weak sisters today compared to years ago, I know the excitement of walking a Teamster picket line and locking things down, we don't do that anymore - today everybody's (including you Andy) a negotiator.
What we need is a new (old) labor movement, we need the Debs', the Haywoods', the Gompers', the Goldmans', the Parsons', et al. We need to shake sh** up, and break sh** up Andy.
What's happening today ain't no different than when Rockefeller initiated the Ludlow massacre Andy. Get a grip, a picket sign and ax handle and get in the streets.

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Andy Stern
Posted by: eksommer on Nov 2, 2006 4:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Andy Stern has articulated everything I think is wrong with this country and he has detailed solutions that many of us have talked about. Now let's get to work. I want to see an Andy Stern/Barack Obamha ticket. There is a combination I am willing to vote for.

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» RE: Average Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: Average Posted by: Trazom
Paying for all of this
Posted by: Uncle Crabby on Nov 2, 2006 5:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are always those who bring up the topic of paying for these changes with the underlying sentiment that it is too expensive, and can't and won't ever happen for that reason.

This how you do it. This has been my tax plan for years. I am NOT an accountant. I am not a genius. Why doesn't this plan get pushed through by the "wind that fills the sails"?

1. No taxes until you have surpassed the poverty rate. Then a flat tax for everyone, with social security, universal health care, and federal debt repayment rolled in. Your exemption is the poverty rate!

2. No differentiation in income. Dividends, capital gains, W2 income etc. ... all the same. No more free ride for the investor class, or rather, we invite the investor class back into the game of really financing America.

We could retire the national debt in 20 years, the middle class would return, and we would finance great education, retirement, and health care for all.

One last thing. If anybody can write something off, everybody can. I want to pay for my car with pre-tax dollars too. I don't want to buy chuck roast with after-tax dollars while my boss eats lobster paid for with pre-tax dollars.

Is this too simple? Am I missing something (other than the obvious political resistance)?

Will another common person like myself please respond as to why we don't put this system in place right now.

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» RE: Paying for all of this Posted by: Shehova
» RE: Paying for all of this Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Paying for all of this Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Problem with sales taxes Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: Problem with sales taxes Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Problem with sales taxes Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Problem with sales taxes Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Problem with sales taxes Posted by: Mykol225
» RE: Problem with sales taxes Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Rebuttal Posted by: Uncle Crabby
» RE:rebuttal Posted by: rwa
The answer is so damn simple but it takes hard study to "get" it.
Posted by: kiatoa on Nov 2, 2006 8:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Poverty can be eliminated by a simple change in how taxation is done. But it you hear how it works with out studying it you will probably reject the idea. It is a concept that seems simple on the surface (and is extremely easy to implement) but why it would work and why some of the ideas mentioned above won't work takes most people some hard study and in depth reading to really get.

Please spend a half an hour reading up on Henry George. Maybe start at henrygeorge.org or just use google. Seek first to understand. Really understand. Don't just read enough to identify what you think are the flaws you can use to reject the idea. I think being able to question our existing ideas is a great strength. I'm going to go back and study the ideas above in case I've missed something. I hope some alternet readers will do the same with Henry George.

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At least Andy Stern isn't trying to appease corporate elitists unlike Sweeney.
Posted by: NDnative on Nov 2, 2006 8:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Remember, the AFL-CIO leaders during Clinton's time allowed the "centrist" DLC to tickle them into abandoning principle and collecting money aggressively thereby opening the door to being painted as money grubbers despite the fact that Corporate America is the worst of the bunch. I'm glad to see that Stern is putting motherfuckers who misuse education as an excuse to outsource on the defensive.

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Who's Leading The Blind ?
Posted by: gazooks on Nov 2, 2006 8:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.... "if we think about how change is made in America, I think we have the wrong idea right now, and I don't know how we got here."

Here Stern is is on the money. He does not know, like most of us who are either unable or unwilling to look and acknowledge that the issues facing our economy are due to a basic and fundamental flaw. It's akin to treating symptoms of a cold for a cancer patient. You only have a limited window for correct diagnosis and treatment before the malignancy ensues.

We argue the remedies to symptoms that are exacerbated day by day as we descend deeper and deeper into an economic Armageddon, and never address the true ailment because our attention is engineered away by a socially conditioned mindset. We are deluded and it's not by accident.

It's not likely, I'm afraid, that we will come to our senses and be willing, as a nation, to consider that we may in fact be the victims of a nearly century old gamble by our government, who's intent at the time may have been benign, maybe not, but nevertheless began a process that has systematically undermined our economic and political freedom by abdicating it's responsibility, and surrendering it's power of monetary authority to private interest. It is an absolutely fatal blow to a free economy, and a free society, uncorrected. It's the bitter fruit of a grand deception, and the helpless confusion of political disenfranchisment. It's a nonpartisan problem, and requires a nonpartisan solution.

As has been the case throughout history, when a regime based in concentrated power, moves to consolidate that power, it is invariably at the expense of it's citizens, and then at the expense of it's neighbors. It must then perpetuate dominance by ever harsher controls until it eventually self-destructs. We are well down this road now.

The evidence as witnessed by the host of increasing social domestic controls, conduct of war, and fear by our neighbors should be all that we need to know that we're in a very bad state. The hubris of government in the face of it's ham handed policies and disinformation should be warning enough. The obvious co-opting of our legislative bodies should be alarming enough. The concentration of media ownership and homogeneity of viewpoint should be very worrisome to a free people. The projections of crippling legacy debt to our children should be intolerable.

"...and I don't know how we got here." Well, Mr. Stern, take 90 minutes to view Aaron Russo's 'Freedom to Fascism'. It will reveal the basis of the dilemma facing this country, and the face of "authority" in character, tactic and intent. The final half of the film is it's strength and should not be missed. It will change the way you view our current situation, and what must be done if we're not to become what we've spent many, many thousands of lives in desperate struggle against. Pass the link along, please.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4312730277175242198

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The Kansas City Shuffle
Posted by: Cousin Jack on Nov 2, 2006 9:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Right now, you work until April 23 as a nation, just to cover the cost of government. In 1910 you worked until Jan. 20th to cover the cost of government. So you work almost 1/3 of the year to cover the cost of government, but you still owe the $143,300 per family of five created by government above that cost, also not including what you pay the federal reserve, a private bank by the way, for using the banking system, and the extra cost for goods you pay by charging them on credit cards. We owe China and Japan each about 1,000,000,000,000 dollars, and Germany runs third in that race. How does it feel to know you owe as a family of 5 owe $50,000 to the Japanese, Chinese and Germans. Yet our nation of people still focuses on the poor as the problem. Of course, this is just dandy for the rich. Here is a brief scenario of how it works. Assume you are a laborer working on the floor of a factory. The guys in white shirts upstairs have been selling the company off, so they can maintain high wages, and golden parachutes for themselves. You are a union, one union under the roof of the factory, indivisible, except when management wants to divide you, and with libery and justice for those who have the money. Along comes a non union worker, (we'll call him an immigrant) and he says, hey, how about a job. The foreman says, well, see those barrels over there, if you clean the toxic waste out of them for less than minimum wage, we will hire you, because our Union guys won't do that job for $50,000 a year. Now, the Management is selling you out, but they don't want you to know, so when the heat is on them, and you the Union are asking questions, they point to the guy who cleans the toxic waste and say, look, when did that guy get here, he is non-union, and he is the cause of our woes. (the guy has worked here for maybe ten years, hoping one day to join the union.) You the workers, because you are fed the addiction of hate on shows such as Bill O'Really of Fix News, focus on the guy and say, yes, that is the reason we have problems, it's that guy the non-union guy who is ruining us. The management dodges another bullet, while they are selling the company to foreign investors and each getting a huge kickback. The management by the way was put in by you, with the idea that every 4 years or so, more of you from the floor could graduate to management. However, management changed the rules, and they don't let any of you join their ranks. Now management has a "closed shop." So go on hating Untied (sic) Statians, hate the minorities and the poor, blame them, while the "closed shop" of management sells you out. How do you steal monies from the treasury, why you have a war, and pay all your defense contractors a whole lot of money for helping you get the Iraqi’s there freedom, while you get the people to hate other Untied Statians. Yes, the Untied States now need to Unite, get rid of the whole of management, and start anew, or just go on with the addiction of hate, always blaming the poor or the ill, as they did when Hitler came to power in Germany, and saw himself as superior. The B2's dropped about 530 laser guided bombs in Iraq, which are not missiles, but more like dropping a rock from a cliff, and hitting within 90 feet of your aiming point. The 21 B2's cost about 2 billion a piece, and they have dropped 530 bombs for OIL (Operation Iraqi Liberation) and that doesn't take into account the cost of upkeep. Right now, those laser guided rocks that fly with that accuracy for less than 2 minutes, are costing about $49,000,000 a piece, a huge price for a falling rock, don't you think. $49,000,000 bombs, wow, no wonder management likes to keep us in the dark, picking on each other. I think the movie "Lucky Slevin" called it the "Kansas City Shuffle" meaning they make you look to the left, while they do what they want on the right.
Get your mind right, Untied (sic) Statians, become United Statians again.

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» RE: The Kansas City Shuffle Posted by: Cousin Jack
» RE: The Kansas City Shuffle Posted by: Cousin Jack
Don't stiff education
Posted by: stormchilde1975 on Nov 2, 2006 9:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Education may not be the key to immediate financial reward, but it is absolutely key to economic reform. People can't vote their own interests when they're ignorant of the basics. Educated people vote in higher numbers than the uneducated, and are in a better position to figure out which issues are most important.
Also, until we offer a free education through graduate studies to every American willing to do the work, we will continue to fall behind the curve in innovation and efficiency - key drivers of economic progress.
Conservatives are addicted to an ignorant population, because only an ignorant population will keep them in power. What they don't understand (or don't care about) is that an ignorant population will drag this country to its economic grave. If we stay on this path, in 50 years the USA will be the economic equivalent of Mexico.

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» RE: Don't stiff education Posted by: lionhead
Another approach
Posted by: graylegend on Nov 2, 2006 9:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or here's another way to look at it - everybody should play a flat tax - not a flat rate, but a flat numerical amount, say $3000 per year per person in your household. Once you've paid it, you can keep everything you make. This would incentivize people to work hard to earn what they must pay in order to be allowed to be part of our society and enjoy its benefits. After that point, knowing they could keep 100% of every dollar earned would be a powerful incentive to keep working. It would also create political pressure to keep taxes low (so that people on the lower end of the scale could afford them), would result in minimal unpleasant redistributive effects (which often carry political implications that people on one side or other of the spectrum disagree with), and would help foster a sense of dues-paying civic responsibility that seems to be lacking in the current scenario, where people are penalized for making more.

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» RE: Another approach Posted by: AdamG
Toyota plant not built in US
Posted by: babs on Nov 2, 2006 9:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stern's remark about the Toyota plant was accurate - the car maker is building it/has built it near Toronto and it will provide up to 7,000 jobs.

This choice was not only due to healthcare costs per employee, a small fraction of what it is in America, it was also due to lack of basic education. Toyota was dismayed when they had to resort to pictograms to train southern US employees on the plant floor because a disturbing number of them couldn't read! A spokesman for Toyota told a reporter that it was a big cost saving for them that potential Canadian employees had at least completed secondary school and were, on average, better educated and ready to work in a hi tech auto environment.

I'm all for college and university education and enrollment definitely needs to increase across the board, but I believe that the system needs to address the alarming illiteracy rate in the general population (up to 40%). Jobs depend on it, as the Toyota issue clearly shows.

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» that explains a whole lot Posted by: AdamG
Umm, great, but...
Posted by: p1d1s1 on Nov 2, 2006 9:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Aside from a nebulous plan to include national and community service under the rubric of "serving one's country", Andy doesn't even address the increasing militarization of our society and the resultant dismantling of our formerly democractic republic. The reforms needed to effect a just society are fundamental, not topical.

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Freedom from want is a right.
Posted by: mom'z the word on Nov 2, 2006 11:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Interesting concept "democratic capitalism." "Alan Greenspan, my new revolutionary hero, said that the gap between the rich and the rest of the population was so growing so wide and so fast that it could wreck democratic capitalism. Warren Buffett says the market's not working for poor people."

My view then is, if capitalism applies to a democracy then financial equality is a guaranteed freedom. Financial equality means equal distribution of wealth. Financial equality boils down to one thing Freedom from want. In a democracy run by capitalism, which this one clearly is, it is not enough to say that you are free to make as much money as you want. But rather you are free to make as much money as you can and it will be fairly and equally distributed.

Where to start? We can start with Congress. Everything our representatives have, best health care, pension plan, salary, etc is the norm. That means every constituent in the representatives district is entitled to exactly what his or her representative has.

How to finance this venture? For starters you tax corporations like the individuals, head of household, they claim to be. This could be done in the next tax cycle using the existing 1040 forms regular Americans have to use. All the money that is collected and I promise you it would be in the billions would be enough to supplement every Americans income to equal that of our Congressional representatives.

Health care and pension plan is automatically included. Taxes collected go first to equalizing the wealth. After all the checks have been sent out to all Americans to equalize constitutes benefits to representative’s benefits is what Congress has to run the country. And listen people there is more than enough money to go around. After all we are the richest country in the world. The problem of course has been a logjam of money at the headwaters. That could all change with one good tax blast freeing up all that capital to flow downstream where it can stimulate new growth and a better life for everyone.

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Draft Sneaks In
Posted by: rwa on Nov 2, 2006 2:00 PM   
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" Why can't I serve my country in a disaster relief force, so that when the next forest fire burns in California, we don't send a group of young kids to do that, or the next time we have a Katrina, our kids don't go down there. Why can't I serve my country by assisting in an urban school? Going to rural healthcare facility where no one has access to healthcare? We should trade service to our country on many different levels, so our kids can have an education they can use and take with them. [Applause.]"

There is actually more than one conscription bill in congress right now that are called "national servce" not "draft" bills. The catch is, after you serve your "national service", you become part of the military reserves. Any discussion of "national service" that doesn't address this reality is highly suspect.

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» RE: Draft Sneaks In Posted by: albrechtkrausse
Another Vision:
Posted by: rwa on Nov 2, 2006 2:08 PM   
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http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r210_35.pdf

This regulation provides guidance for establishing and managing civilian inmate labor programs on Army installations. It provides guidance on establishing prison camps on Army installations. It addresses record keeping and reporting incidents related to the Civilian Inmate Labor Program and/or prison camp Applicability. This regulation applies to the Active Army, the Army National Army management control process. Contents (Listed by paragraph and page number) Guard of the United States, and the U.S. Army Reserve unless otherwise stated

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Remember Wall Street's role
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Nov 2, 2006 2:45 PM   
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Wall Street has become an engine for mal distribution of wealth, and not because free markets stiff the middle class. Just the opposite. Major brokers and others have rigged the markets in their favor.

I follow the silver market, which by the way, is in de facto default. Buyers of large quantities of silver must wait months to get delivery, all the while four major traders hold short positions astronomically larger than world silver production. 40 million oz. of silver are all that's available to cover 800 million ounces short.

For those of you who are interested, the COO of the Nymex, which is going public shortly, just up and resigned with no reason given. Just what does he know that you don't?

For the rest of you, this small market is a sample of what's happening in the larger markets. Flim flam and fraud are the rule and not the exception. You think that the price of oil is going to stay down after the election, or that the Dow will stay above 12,000? If so, maybe you deserve a retirement of living in your car and eating canned pet food.

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I haven't read the other comments, but
Posted by: sln70 on Nov 2, 2006 4:08 PM   
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I have to say, Uncle Crabby, that I COMPLETELY agree with your original post.

I have always been flabbergasted that they tax income BELOW THE POVERTY LINE. Any income up to that point (for EVERYONE) ought to be tax free.

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