Home
Archive
Columnists
Video
Blogs
Discuss
About
Search
Donate
Advertise
100 words for 100 days: submit your 100 word essay and get published on AlterNet
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
  • AlterNetYour turn

Support AlterNet
Do you value the information you're getting from AlterNet? Please show your support with a tax-deductible donation.


Feedback
Tell us how we're doing.

Advertisement
Advertisement

Corporate Accountability and WorkPlace

Toward a Real Immigration Debate

By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted April 11, 2006.


On the right, the immigration debate is between fat-cat corporatists and slack-jawed nativists. Progressives can do better.
041106_storyb
Toward a Real Immigration Debate
Advertisement

Our current immigration debate is wrought with emotion and waged on grossly simplistic terms. It's a national argument loaded with bad faith, marked by a surplus of name calling and often based on terrible data.

The key to getting to the bottom of the immigration question is to embrace the complexity of the issue. If we take a broad look at the facts -- with all their nuance -- perhaps a common-sense solution will emerge.

A real issue

A few weeks ago Robert Scheer argued, "There is no immigration crisis -- other than the one created by a small but vocal stripe of opportunist politicians, media demagogues and freelance xenophobes."

I'll explain why he's partially right. Yet at the same time, to deny that immigration is a real issue is not only politically tone-deaf, it misses the point entirely.

The present state of our immigration system is horrible from a pro- as well as an anti-immigration point of view. Recall that on Sept. 10, 2001, when Guantanamo Bay was still just an odd relic of the Cold War, the United States was already holding over 3,000 people indefinitely in its immigration system, "pending deportation" to countries that didn't want them, without charge or access to attorneys.

It's an issue because we have more undocumented immigrants in this country than ever, and recent polls show that three out of four Americans consider immigration "a very big or moderately big problem." Many see unchecked immigration as the root cause of American workers' deteriorating economic health.

With virtually no mainstream debate about how so-called "free-trade" affects working people, how easy it is to break unions or how debased corporate America's ethical culture has become, it's not surprising that immigration is such a hot-button topic. Working people have seen their real wages and benefits falling, and although that decline doesn't match up chronologically with the influx of immigrant labor over the past 10 years, it's understandable that people believe immigration plays a much greater role than it actually does. Immigrants are visible in a way those other factors are not.

But while the high number of immigrants in the United States is an issue, it's not a crisis, and it is certainly not an invasion. What we've seen is a large but finite surge in immigration, mostly from Mexico and largely in response to the effects of trade deals Mexico signed in the 1990s. According to a study by the Pew organization, Mexican immigration "grew very rapidly starting in the mid-1990s, hit a peak at the end of the decade, and then declined substantially after 2001. By 2004, the annual inflow of foreign-born persons was down 24 percent from its all-time high in 2000."

That timeline corresponds perfectly with the damage wrought in Mexico by NAFTA. According to one of the better analyses of that deal's impact (PDF), between NAFTA's passage in 1995 and 2002, Mexico saw "a decline in domestic manufacturing employment" and "Mexican agriculture has been a net loser … [E]mployment in the sector has declined sharply." Real wages for most Mexicans today are lower than when NAFTA took effect.

According to a Pew analysis of census data, there are an estimated 12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States, up from around five million in the mid-1990s. As a percentage of the population, there are fewer foreign-born in America today than there were in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. At less than five percent, immigrants are a much lower percentage of the civilian work force than we've had in past eras.

We need a clearer understanding of who immigrants are and what they do. According to the Census Bureau (PDF), less than half of all immigrants come from Central and South America. The same percentage of the foreign-born population has college degrees as Americans (although fewer have high school degrees).

The common notion that there are "good" immigrants who enter the United States legally, pay their taxes and work hard to raise their families, and "bad," shiftless immigrants who enter illegally, take services and give nothing in return while depressing native wages is at best overly simplistic. Up to 40 percent of the illegal population entered the country legally and overstayed their visas. Illegals pay payroll, sales and property taxes (mostly passed through rental property owners), which are the three taxes that take the biggest bite from all working-class families. According to a Pew study, a quarter of all immigrants live in "mixed" households where some members are U.S. citizens, some are legal residents and some are undocumented.

Today's "bad" immigrant, if given the chance, becomes tomorrow's "good" one. Currently, the two are likely to be cousins.

The economy

"They took our jobs!" is neither accurate nor a cogent analysis of the impact immigration has on the economy.

The short version goes like this: We absolutely need a large supply of immigrant labor for our overall, long-term economic health. Immigrants have a negative short-term impact on local governments' fiscal situation, but over the long haul, immigrants pay more in taxes than they take in services. Immigrant labor has a negative effect on wages for a small group of Americans, and the positive contributions -- including their positive contributions to workers' wages -- are enjoyed by a much, much larger group of natives. All of these factors are very small in relation to the economy as a whole, and almost none of the rhetoric about how immigration hurts working people is justified by the data.


Digg!

Joshua Holland is an AlterNet staff writer.


Advertisement
Advertisement

 

Comments Turn comments off sitewide Give us feedback »
Comments closed.
The comments for this story have been closed. Thank you to everyone who participated.
View:
My Take on Immigration
Posted by: thinkverybig on Apr 11, 2006 12:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OK..... picture this. I robbed a bank and then protest that the bank didn't have enough money. Or better yet.... I break into your home and then protest and demand to stay in your home. What right does an ILLEGAL Immigrant have to come into this country illegally and then protest about staying here. That is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. But I blame the Mexican and United States Government moreso than I blame the immigrants. The United States is going to get enough of exploiting the poor for its benefit and that time is coming soon. Corporations are partly the blame for even hiring an illegal immigrant.... the government should focus on arresting those who hire illegals....

All the U.S. have to do is help Mexico get its economy on track and stop trying to maintain all of the power in this world. Sharing is a good thing.... greed is NOT.

The United States has done a lot of dirt in its history and the time will come where it reaps what it has sown and I'm afraid that time is approaching.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: My Take on Immigration Posted by: symcokid
» RE: My Take on Immigration Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: My Take on Immigration Posted by: symcokid
» RE: My Take on Immigration Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: My Take on Immigration Posted by: bearw_me
A FEW NOTES …
Posted by: Joshua Holland on Apr 11, 2006 2:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
… and then there’s a bonus track -- a discussion of things uneconomic -- over in The Mix.

Not all of the research that suggests there are negative economic effects of immigration is junk put out by agenda-driven shops like CIS. Harvard economists George Boras, Richard Freeman and Lawrence Katz published an influential study in 1997 that estimated that 44% of the decline in wages that high school drop-outs suffered between 1980 and 1995 were a result of immigration.

Extending that work, Arthur Sakamoto and Changhwan Kim of the University of Texas got similar results in a more recent study (PDF).

Readers will surely accuse me of leaving those things out for ideological reasons.

The real reason I omitted them is that they’re based on economic simulations and are at odds with a large body of research using real labor markets and real live immigrants. The simulations have assumptions that other scholars have questioned. Howard Chang at Penn State notes that Borjas, Freeman and Katz themselves have conceded that their model “will likely overstate the economic effects of immigration.” If and when the real-world data corresponds with their models, we’ll have to look at it again.

Speaking of Chang, I relied on his analysis in Migration Theory (Routledge 2000), which is a good overview of the subject from a bunch of different scholarly perspectives.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: A FEW NOTES … Posted by: drone
» RE: A FEW NOTES … Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: A FEW NOTES … Posted by: drone
» RE: A FEW NOTES … Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: A FEW NOTES … Posted by: drone
» RE: A FEW NOTES … Posted by: Joshua Holland
» If we can't rely on studies . . . Posted by: stormchilde1975
» Anecdotal evidence . . . Posted by: stormchilde1975
» another apology Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: another apology Posted by: drone
» Thank you Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: Thank you Posted by: drone
Great piece
Posted by: midge on Apr 11, 2006 2:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is exactly what is needed-an in-depth and detailed look at the issues in which their root causes are addressed, as well as an analysis of the different takes on those issues. It also puts things in perspective in that these root causes are too often ignored and so it's easy to see why the focus is so often only on immigration. That being said, I can still understand the thoughts and feelings of those on both sides of the debate (save for those that are xenophobic, nationalist, or neo-liberal, thought they don't seem to be represented on this site too much) and why it's such an emotionally charged issue.

So what do you tell that small number of American workers who compete with immigrant labor to their detriment? There's no good answer, and proponents of immigrant rights have to face that honestly
This is a true and honest statement, and it is for this reason that, while I support immigrants rights and strongly sympathize with their cause, I can understand and sympathize with those that have been hurt or fear being hurt by this. In addition to the groups of workers mentioned in the article, people with hidden disabilities and social disabilities like Asperger's Syndrome (such as myself, and many others as it is relatively common), high-functioning autism, mild developmental disorders, among others, and people who don't feel they are cut out for or can't afford college, people who didn't finish high school (and it is not always out of lack of motivation; I know people who dropped out because they were bullied so badly) can also be affected (people with more severe disabilities can be as well, though I think many of them receive good assistance, and rightfully so). Because of our poor social skills, the kinds of jobs often sought by immigrants are ideal for us if for whatever reason we can't train for/get/keep more skilled and specialized jobs; they are sort of a safety net. However, I don't think the issue is one of immigration but rather one of improving resources for people with hidden/social disabilities as well as people who've just had difficulty getting an education or finding work and having more empathy for them rather than ignoring them or looking down on them or leaving them behind as our society does now.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Great piece Posted by: dlf
» to Midge: not about immigrtion Posted by: plantland
cui bono?
Posted by: Baal_Labs on Apr 11, 2006 3:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wonderful research on who is behind the anti-immigration lobby.

Now maybe Joshua can research who pays Alternet to put out an endless stream of pro-immigration propaganda. And how they stand to benefit financially...at our expense.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: cui bono? Posted by: numen
» Just a matter of perspective Posted by: Baal_Labs
» RE: Just a matter of perspective Posted by: brasilaron
» I can appreciate! Posted by: johnsh
OK, I give up, Joshua! Your determined, so here is my compliance.
Posted by: Prophit on Apr 11, 2006 4:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am going to support the raise in H2B visas that are being proposed for educated and degreed workers from other countries.

I am then going to support they replace you with one of them at half your salary and then I am going to say that its a lie that they replaced you, even though we can see that they did.

In addition, I am going to then hire your families domestic illegal away from you by paying her $3 an hour rather than the $2 an hour that you pay her even though I can get someone cheaper just to make my point.

Finally, I am going to send over a newly entered illegal to replace the one that I hired who has hepititas C (which we had pretty much iradicated) and who will then prepare your food for you and your children. Then she will get free medical cause your only paying her $2 per hour and your family will have to pay the $1,000 deductible on your insurance because you don't have free medical, in order to get treatment for your son.

He, of course, will always have Hepititas C since its not curable and of course, your fine with that. Who cares about the children, right? Who cares about the reemergence of all that disease since we don't care about responsible legal immigration anymore that addresses those problems up front at time of application.

Or maybe I will point out to one of the rapists (who got released from Prison in Mexico as long as he leaves the country) where you live so he can check out your daughter. Would that be ok with you??? Well, of course.

See, guys like you live in some world other than ours down here in the trenches. You live in an ivory tower where you never have to deal with real issues of everyday life. Tell the families of all those children who died eating food at a restaurant where the vegetables came from Mexico and had e coli that killed kids. You don't eat at those places so you have nothing to worry about.

Academicians live somewhere in the world of "studies" and it depends on who is financing them as to the results of the "study" which we all know can be scewed anyway you wish. Frankly, we our here are sick and tired of it all and have reached our limit.

Your in a fantasy world with patronizing and condescending comments about the rest of us who live with this everyday. Do you know why your told not to eat the fruits and vegetables when you go to Mexico??? Yet, we now ship them into our country without checking them out for problems???

Its BECAUSE THEY USE HUGE TRUCK LOADS OF HUMAN WASTE AS FERTILIZER FOR GROWING THE FRUITS AND VEGETABLES. OR DIDN'T YOU KNOW THAT. Now its being transported here under the free trade agreement. No wonder the illegals are sick. Someone needs to go to mexico and deal with those leaders down there who allow this on their own people.

This is a crime what you all are doing.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE:Not blaming illegals... Posted by: plantland
corporatist exploiting illegal migrations
Posted by: lclark on Apr 11, 2006 4:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here a bit of personal experience from someone who would not agree with illegal migrants not taking jobs:
"I live in Minnesota which is as far from the Mexican border as should be necessary to be out of the Mexican invasion but not so due to a local Hormel meat packing plant that thought it would improve its profits if it replaced all the union workers with Mexicans. They never had a shortage of workers; in fact, they had a waiting list of legal citizens wanting jobs there, but now they won't hire an American citizen because the Mexicans don't like working along side whites; and well, accidents happen. I moved out of town so my kids could go to school without fear of violence. Mexican gangs are rampant even in the elementary schools. To add insults to injuries, I have often been harassed by Mexicans. What really got me steamed is the other day I went to Walmart and a Mexican kid wore an Aztlan T-shirt. Though in Spanish, it depicted the western USA combined with Mexico colored in with the Mexican flag. Ironic given that he's living in Minnesota which isn't even in the 'Aztlan' territory. Big business is making a lot of money off of their 'cheaper labor' but we are paying for it. "
http://www.rense.com/general70/horridf.htm

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Data, oh no.
Posted by: brad on Apr 11, 2006 4:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Finally a good analysis of the issues. The data is clear, now lets see the responses. Labeling pro corporate is already flying, but the truth is that corporations benifit most from the current system. A move to grant citizenship would help ALL workers.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Data, oh no. Posted by: dlf
» I don't see the problem. Posted by: stormchilde1975
» We know, we can tell........ Posted by: Prophit
» Its all pluses..... Posted by: brad
» RE: Its all pluses..... Posted by: Prophit
» Hang on Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: I don't see the problem. Posted by: VisionQuest
» Not quite Posted by: stormchilde1975
» Gee, I'm convinced Posted by: Baal_Labs
» RE: Gee, I'm convinced Posted by: brad
» RE: Gee, I'm convinced Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Gee, I'm convinced Posted by: Baal_Labs
Thanks, Joshua
Posted by: Uncle Tupelo on Apr 11, 2006 4:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're absolutely right that immigration is an issue, and one that Democrats (and other progressives) should be paying close attention to. And I think we should recognize that the energy the immigration posts on Alternet have generated demonstrate the anxiety people are feeling about the job losses and stagnant wage growth that globalization has helped along. It's not so much that Alternet readers are competing with Mexican immigrants for low-wage no-benefit jobs, but immigrants have moved into the fall-back jobs that people can imagine themselves turning to if their own personal economic situation gets bleaker. Xenophobia and bigotry aren't answers, especially for progressives, but we shouldn't ignore anyone's economic pain.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Backatcha Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Backatcha Posted by: Uncle Tupelo
» RE: Backatcha Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Backatcha Posted by: Uncle Tupelo
» RE: Backatcha Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Backatcha Posted by: Uncle Tupelo
» RE: Backatcha Posted by: YogiBear
Real Costs of Immigration
Posted by: DrGeneNelson on Apr 11, 2006 5:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua Holland's essay is thought provoking, but has several logical flaws. The biggest flaw is the thesis that "immigration is good." If the reader accepts Holland's thesis, then it should be true that "even more immigration is better." Actually, glutted labor markets diminish the market clearing price for labor, which benefits the economic elite. Immigrants demand for goods and services drives up the price of goods and services like gasoline and rents. In Dallas, Texas rents have at least doubled since 1993. Ditto for gasoline. So, U.S. citizens have diminished real wages and inflated prices. Most of the "value add" in this proposition ends up in the pockets of the fat cats.

The adverse impacts of immigration on the college-educated AlterNet readership are well - documented.
The Bottom of the Pay Scale Wages for H-1B Computer Programmers - December 2005 By John Miano.
"The Labor Demand Curve is Downward Sloping: Reexamining the Impact of Immigration on the Labor Market," Quarterly Journal of Economics, November 2003, pp. 1335-1374.
"The Labor Market Impact of High Skill Immigration," American Economic Review, May 2005.
"Immigration in High-Skill Labor Markets: The Impact of Foreign Students on the Earnings of Doctorates," March 2006.
A 10 percent immigration-induced increase in the supply of doctorates lowers the wage of competing workers by about 3 to 4 percent. About half of this adverse wage effect can be attributed to the increased prevalence of low-pay postdoctoral appointments in fields that have softer labor market conditions because of large-scale immigration.

How and Why Government, Universities, and Industry Create Domestic Labor Shortages
of Scientists and High-Tech Workers. By Eric Weinstein


Joshua agrees that the U.S. Union Movement has been emasculated. Why? Pliant immigrant migrants whose employment visas are subject to immediate revocation (A corporate creation of the Immigration Act of 1990.)

Learn more about the corrupt political process that created this disaster at the author's website The Microsoft - Abramoff - Rep. Tom DeLay Triangle

Dr. Gene A. Nelson

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Dr.? Wow! Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: Dr.? Wow! Posted by: drone
» Partial apology Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: Partial apology Posted by: drone
» RE: Partial apology Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: eal Costs of Immigration Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: eal Costs of Immigration Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: eal Costs of Immigration Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: eal Costs of Immigration Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: eal Costs of Immigration Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: eal Costs of Immigration Posted by: YogiBear
Illegal Immigrants are this year's "queers"
Posted by: sausage on Apr 11, 2006 5:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(I posted this here yesterday, and it's still appropriate)
This is a wedge issue par excellence. It plays right into the Republcian base's inherent misanthropy(that's racism to you, Prophit .)

Despite all of Sensenbrenner's huffing and puffing about 700 mile wall, arresting Catholic Workers giving water to Mexicans and Central Americans crossing the desert, the GOP ain't gonna do a thing! Why should they, their big business contributors, Tyson Food and Wal-Mart among others, hire too many undocumented workers to stop now.

The Republicans have found a wedge they can drive into the ground all summer and hope that enough folks, who are otherwise fed-up with Bush and all the administration's shenanigans, will vote'em back into office in November.

Then the GOP won't do a f*ckin' thing about immigration "reform."

Why do you think Frist killed the McCain/Kennedy compromise and House Republicans are still stomping around like a bunch of little Brown Shirts.

Wedge issue politics. That's all it is, folks.
(Now,an addendum)
But from the turnout at Sunday and Monday's demonstrations it seems as if the knuckledraggers of the Republican Party have picked a fight with people who are ready, willing and able to fight back. And, unlike gay pride parades, the marches yesterday and Sunday featured families, so the MSM couldn't focus on the flamboyant, the outrageous and the just plain kooky exceptions among the marchers to make the rule.

This goes on long enough a real A Day Without a Mexican maybe in the offing.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Here is an entirely different Interpretation of the Statistical Evidence
Posted by: russellcole38 on Apr 11, 2006 6:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From the Labor Market, 2000-2005
March 2006
By Steven A. Camarota
Download the .pdf version
Read the panel discussion transcript

Advocates of legalizing illegal aliens and increasing legal immigration argue that there are no Americans to fill low-wage jobs that require relatively little education. However, data collected by the Census Bureau show that, even prior to Hurricane Katrina, there were almost four million unemployed adult natives (age 18 to 64) with just a high school degree or less, and another 19 million not in the labor force. Perhaps most troubling, the share of these less-educated adult natives in the labor force has declined steadily since 2000.
• Looking first at all workers shows that between March 2000 and March 2005 only 9 percent of the net increase in jobs for adults (18 to 64) went to natives. This is striking because natives accounted for 61 percent of the net increase in the overall size of the 18 to 64 year old population.
• As for the less-educated, between March of 2000 and 2005 the number of adult immigrants (legal and illegal) with only a high school degree or less in the labor force increased by 1.6 million.
• At the same time, unemployment among less-educated adult natives increased by nearly one million, and the number of natives who left the labor force altogether increased by 1.5 million. Persons not in the labor force are neither working nor looking for work.
• In total, there are 11.6 million less-educated adult immigrants in the labor force, nearly half of whom are estimated to be illegal aliens.
• Of perhaps greatest concern, the percentage of adult natives without a high school degree who are in the labor force fell from 59 to 56 percent between March 2000 and 2005, and for adult natives with only a high school degree participation in the labor force fell from 78 to 75 percent.
• Had labor force participation remained the same, there would have been an additional 450,000 adult native dropouts and 1.4 million adult natives with only a high school degree in the labor force.
• Data collected since Hurricane Katrina, in January 2006, show no improvement in labor force participation for less-educated natives. It shows a modest improvement in unemployment only for adult native dropouts, but not for natives with only a high school degree.
• The decline in less-educated adult natives (18 to 64) in the labor market does not seem to be the result of more parents staying home with young children, increased college enrollment, or early retirement.
• There is some direct evidence that immigration has harmed less-educated natives; states with the largest increase in immigrants also saw larger declines in natives working; and in occupational categories that received the most new immigrants, native unemployment averages 10 percent.
• While most natives are more educated, and don’t face competition from less-educated immigrants, detailed analysis of 473 separate occupations shows that 17 million less-educated adult natives work in occupations with a high concentrations of immigrants.
• Some of the occupations most impacted by immigration include maids, construction laborers, dishwashers, janitors, painters, cabbies, grounds keepers, and meat/poultry workers. The overwhelming majority of workers in these occupations are native-born.
• The workers themselves are not the only thing to consider; nearly half of American children (under 18) are dependent on a less-educated worker, and 71 percent of children of the native-born working poor depend on a worker with a high school degree or less.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Slack-Jawed Nativists?
Posted by: playitsam on Apr 11, 2006 6:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Talk about simplistic! The idea that if you are against illegal immigration you are simply an uneducated hillbilly, is not only insulting but appalling in its dismissal of the anti-illegal. Just because a person is not in favor of blanket amnesty and open borders doesn't make them stupid or xenophobic or racist - despite what a lot of immigrants and their advocates say. This isssue has become another cause that those who call themselves "liberals" have taken up and the author is a good example of this. It seems to me that a lot of liberals have decided that the working poor are to be disparaged as people who don't want to do dirty jobs. That's not true and where there aren't a lot of illegal immigrants those jobs are filled by those working poor. Supporting unending illegal immigration by pronouncing an instant amnesty is a slap in the face at people who are struggling. Construction jobs are a good example of jobs that are more and more in danger to the native born and LEGAL immigrants. What is needed is true immigration reform and more funds given to the Immigration and Naturalization Service so they can do their jobs more effectively. In addition better border security NOW! This is not about xenophobia or racism and dismissing those who are opposed to illegal immigration as simply a bunch of red-neck yahoos is nothing more than reverse racism

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Straw Man Posted by: stormchilde1975
» I should have said . . . Posted by: stormchilde1975
» I read the article! Posted by: stormchilde1975
Just because Bracero was bad...
Posted by: brunowe on Apr 11, 2006 6:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...doesn't mean that a guest-worker program has to be today. A good program would, like Bush's, give employees 45 days to find another job and actually make the protections stick this time. Enforcement of this could be tied with a general increase in enforcement against employers hiring illegals (long overdue).

I also note that you haven't looked at the follow-on effect of citizenship for illegals, that it will send a green light to other aspiring illegal immigrants.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Different limit? Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Different limit? Posted by: drone
» RE: Different limit? Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Different limit? Posted by: drone
Here are some more dissenting viewpoints to the Alternets feel-good politics
Posted by: russellcole38 on Apr 11, 2006 6:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JOBS LOST AND FOUND At California construction sites like this one, well-paid work that used to go to native-born Americans is going to lower-paid immigrants.
By JOHN M. BRODER
Published: April 2, 2006
LOS ANGELES
Plentiful, Productive — and Illegal
IT is asserted both as fact and as argument: the United States needs a constant flow of immigrants to perform jobs Americans will not stoop to do.
But what if those jobs paid $50 an hour, with benefits, instead of $7 or $10 or $15?
"Of course there are jobs that few Americans will take because the wages and working conditions have been so degraded by employers," said Jared Bernstein, of the liberal Economic Policy Institute. "But there is nothing about landscaping, food processing, meat cutting or construction that would preclude someone from doing these jobs on the basis of their nativity. Nothing would keep anyone, immigrant or native born, from doing them if they paid better, if they had health care."
The most comprehensive recent study of immigrant workers comes from the Center for Immigration Studies, a group that, unlike Mr. Bernstein's, advocates stricter controls on immigration. The study, by the center's research director, Steven A. Camarota, found that immigrants are a majority of workers in only 4 of 473 job classifications — stucco masons, tailors, produce sorters and beauty salon workers. But even in those four job categories, native-born workers account for more than 40 percent of the work force.
While it might be a challenge to find an American-born cab driver in New York or parking lot attendant in Phoenix or grape cutter in the San Joaquin Valley of California, according to Mr. Camarota's study of census data from 2000-2005, 59 percent of cab drivers in the United States are native born, as are 66 percent of all valet parkers. Half of all workers in agriculture were born in this country.
"The idea that there are jobs that Americans won't do is economic gibberish," Mr. Camarota said. "All the big occupations that immigrants are in — construction, janitorial, even agriculture — are overwhelmingly done by native Americans."
But where they compete for jobs, he said, the immigrants have driven up the jobless rate for some Americans. According to his study, published in March, unemployment among the native born with less than a high school education was 14.3 percent in 2005; the figure for the immigrant population was 7.4 percent.
While Mr. Bernstein would agree that the least-educated American workers are at a disadvantage, he does not favor curbs on immigration. Even the least-skilled Americans benefit from the presence of a large pool of immigrant workers, Mr. Bernstein said. He said that the 11 million illegal immigrants are consumers, too, creating demand for goods and services and the jobs they produce. He also said their willingness to work at low wages helps keep inflation in check, benefiting the nation as a whole.
But George J. Borjas, a professor of economics and social policy at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, said he believed that the flow of migrants had significantly depressed wages for Americans in virtually all job categories and income levels. His study found that the average annual wage loss for all American male workers from 1980 to 2000 was $1,200, or 4 percent, and nearly twice that, in percentage terms, for those without a high school diploma. The impact was also disproportionately high on African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans, Professor Borjas found.
"What this is, is a huge redistribution of wealth away from workers who compete with immigrants to those who employ them," he said.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Race To The Bottom
Posted by: dlf on Apr 11, 2006 7:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are many Americans who simply like to work with our hands and don't mind, in fact, we enjoy breaking a sweat. Intelligence levels don't have anything to do with that. Neither does education. Quite often you would find people from all different labor segments who would retire from say Air Traffic Controller to Hotwalker simply because they could make a living without all the stress of customer service or some other job. Joshua has a limited world view, and obviously doesn't know many people who aren't driven by a profit motive. This article is representative of his dismissal of the skills it takes to do many of the jobs today considered unskilled. Do you really want a person without skills building a bridge or your house? Good luck to you if you do. If you owned a horse you paid thousands of dollars for, would you want the person caring for your horse not to be able to recognize collic, or be able to call the vet and start tending to the animal until the vet arrives? My guess is no, but according to Joshua none of these skills has a value. I've also read where the number of injuries is up at meatpacking plants a very hazardous job, could that be due to the often less than 8th grade education held by America's new working class immigrant? The question that Joshua and his crew never seem to answer is, why do Americans have to have a list of references and a diploma for jobs held by people with neither? Who dropped the skill level of these jobs the Americans who used to do them, or the employers who decided they would rather have no skill and cheap labor? We used to be a nation that strived to be the best, we're not even looking to be mediocre today. In the meantime you will hear people saying Blacks don't try to do better. I ask where is the advantage in that, when you have a system that discourages skill, in favor of exploiting one's illega status?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Remittances?
Posted by: brunowe on Apr 11, 2006 7:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua, do you have any data on how much money made by illegals is sent to relatives back home? I wonder because that could effect the questions of how much they put into the US economy relative to citizens (although legal aliens would presumably be doing remittances as well).

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: emittances? Posted by: Prophit
» Not quite true Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: Not quite true Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» RE: emittances? Posted by: Joshua Holland
Something Doesn't Add Up
Posted by: bigart on Apr 11, 2006 7:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are people wanting to come work in our country. There are employers looking for such workers. Why hasn't our government set up a mechanism by which these workers and employers can get together. Why hasn't an easy immigration system been established and enough people hired to process these immigrations legally. Could it be that by keeping the immigrant workers in a bad legal situation the employers can get away with paying them less. I propose new easy access immigration laws, the hiring of people to quickly process iimigrants through this system and an increase of the minimum wage to $10.25.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Progressive Policy Big Picture
Posted by: StuartH on Apr 11, 2006 8:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If there is to be a progressive alternative to the knee-jerk "they take our jobs" simplistic analysis, it has to come from looking at the big picture.

American foreign policy with respect to our neighbors south of the border has been horrendous for over a century. It is not outrageous to say that it is a continuation of the attitudes that the US government formed its policy towards Native Americans around.

Isn't it ironic that the racist aspect of the reaction against immigrants is at least an echo of, if not actually, some horror that Indian people should be moving into the US. Holy Historic Karma!

From support of the juntas that sent out killing squads to suppress dissent in the 1980s, to setting up agreements like NAFTA and CAFTA in contempt of the need to assure the needs of local subsistence farmers in Mexico, our policies have really been incredibly short sighted.

We need more thoughtful journalism like this. We need more facts and we need more consideration of the big picture.

There is too much talk-radio oversimplification and appeal to knee jerk thinking.

I wish that there were progressives offering intelligent alternatives. Perhaps at this time, the noise level provoked by the Republicans makes intelligent debate difficult. But as
the election of 2006 nears, and then moves towards the election of 2008 I hope that progressive policy insights begin to coalesce.

I think if you look at the whole big picture in terms of sustainable policy, you connect the needs of local people in Mexico and the whole southern hemisphere to improved conditions for labor in the northern hemisphere as well. You
also look at the environmental conditions that should be factored in. You also look at how foreign policy and military
intervention affect economics overall. Banks and corporations
are the fire that is causing the smoke of the immigration phenomenon. We have to look at what is going on there and how the larger interests of the populations of all of the countries of both the northern and southern hemispere should supercede special interests.

Until you address the way all the dots connect, you don't have a progressive alternative to the Minute Man mindset.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Ohhhh, give me a break!!! Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Progressive Policy Big Picture Posted by: liberalmedia
Why do I see a master plan behind this issue?
Posted by: DrC on Apr 11, 2006 8:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I few weeks ago the consensus in the press was that the Republicans were going to implode over this issue, as the utterly unrealistic attempt to send tens of millions of undocumented immigrants back across the border, and the criminalization of church workers who would dare give food to a hungry illegal would all backfire. But now I'm wondering whether those outrageous policies weren't all a smokescreen designed precisely to bring people out into the streets. The beauty of major rallies from the point of view of Fox News and their ilk is that in any huge rally, you can find an extremely broad array of views. All they had to do was focus on the handful of morons with signs demanding the expulsion of "whites" from Arizona or California, and a few other incendiary comments, and boom: all of a sudden the ignorant American voter can be convinced that soon hot dogs at baseball games will be replaced by Burritos and non-Spanish speakers will be unable to function in our society. All the while, the Republicans knew damn well that the outcry their immoral policy proposals would generate enough heat-sans-l