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Corporate Accountability and WorkPlace

Toward a Real Immigration Debate

By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted April 11, 2006.


On the right, the immigration debate is between fat-cat corporatists and slack-jawed nativists. Progressives can do better.
041106_storyb
Toward a Real Immigration Debate

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Our current immigration debate is wrought with emotion and waged on grossly simplistic terms. It's a national argument loaded with bad faith, marked by a surplus of name calling and often based on terrible data.

The key to getting to the bottom of the immigration question is to embrace the complexity of the issue. If we take a broad look at the facts -- with all their nuance -- perhaps a common-sense solution will emerge.

A real issue

A few weeks ago Robert Scheer argued, "There is no immigration crisis -- other than the one created by a small but vocal stripe of opportunist politicians, media demagogues and freelance xenophobes."

I'll explain why he's partially right. Yet at the same time, to deny that immigration is a real issue is not only politically tone-deaf, it misses the point entirely.

The present state of our immigration system is horrible from a pro- as well as an anti-immigration point of view. Recall that on Sept. 10, 2001, when Guantanamo Bay was still just an odd relic of the Cold War, the United States was already holding over 3,000 people indefinitely in its immigration system, "pending deportation" to countries that didn't want them, without charge or access to attorneys.

It's an issue because we have more undocumented immigrants in this country than ever, and recent polls show that three out of four Americans consider immigration "a very big or moderately big problem." Many see unchecked immigration as the root cause of American workers' deteriorating economic health.

With virtually no mainstream debate about how so-called "free-trade" affects working people, how easy it is to break unions or how debased corporate America's ethical culture has become, it's not surprising that immigration is such a hot-button topic. Working people have seen their real wages and benefits falling, and although that decline doesn't match up chronologically with the influx of immigrant labor over the past 10 years, it's understandable that people believe immigration plays a much greater role than it actually does. Immigrants are visible in a way those other factors are not.

But while the high number of immigrants in the United States is an issue, it's not a crisis, and it is certainly not an invasion. What we've seen is a large but finite surge in immigration, mostly from Mexico and largely in response to the effects of trade deals Mexico signed in the 1990s. According to a study by the Pew organization, Mexican immigration "grew very rapidly starting in the mid-1990s, hit a peak at the end of the decade, and then declined substantially after 2001. By 2004, the annual inflow of foreign-born persons was down 24 percent from its all-time high in 2000."

That timeline corresponds perfectly with the damage wrought in Mexico by NAFTA. According to one of the better analyses of that deal's impact (PDF), between NAFTA's passage in 1995 and 2002, Mexico saw "a decline in domestic manufacturing employment" and "Mexican agriculture has been a net loser … [E]mployment in the sector has declined sharply." Real wages for most Mexicans today are lower than when NAFTA took effect.

According to a Pew analysis of census data, there are an estimated 12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States, up from around five million in the mid-1990s. As a percentage of the population, there are fewer foreign-born in America today than there were in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. At less than five percent, immigrants are a much lower percentage of the civilian work force than we've had in past eras.

We need a clearer understanding of who immigrants are and what they do. According to the Census Bureau (PDF), less than half of all immigrants come from Central and South America. The same percentage of the foreign-born population has college degrees as Americans (although fewer have high school degrees).

The common notion that there are "good" immigrants who enter the United States legally, pay their taxes and work hard to raise their families, and "bad," shiftless immigrants who enter illegally, take services and give nothing in return while depressing native wages is at best overly simplistic. Up to 40 percent of the illegal population entered the country legally and overstayed their visas. Illegals pay payroll, sales and property taxes (mostly passed through rental property owners), which are the three taxes that take the biggest bite from all working-class families. According to a Pew study, a quarter of all immigrants live in "mixed" households where some members are U.S. citizens, some are legal residents and some are undocumented.

Today's "bad" immigrant, if given the chance, becomes tomorrow's "good" one. Currently, the two are likely to be cousins.

The economy

"They took our jobs!" is neither accurate nor a cogent analysis of the impact immigration has on the economy.

The short version goes like this: We absolutely need a large supply of immigrant labor for our overall, long-term economic health. Immigrants have a negative short-term impact on local governments' fiscal situation, but over the long haul, immigrants pay more in taxes than they take in services. Immigrant labor has a negative effect on wages for a small group of Americans, and the positive contributions -- including their positive contributions to workers' wages -- are enjoyed by a much, much larger group of natives. All of these factors are very small in relation to the economy as a whole, and almost none of the rhetoric about how immigration hurts working people is justified by the data.


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Joshua Holland is an AlterNet staff writer.

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My Take on Immigration
Posted by: thinkverybig on Apr 11, 2006 12:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OK..... picture this. I robbed a bank and then protest that the bank didn't have enough money. Or better yet.... I break into your home and then protest and demand to stay in your home. What right does an ILLEGAL Immigrant have to come into this country illegally and then protest about staying here. That is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. But I blame the Mexican and United States Government moreso than I blame the immigrants. The United States is going to get enough of exploiting the poor for its benefit and that time is coming soon. Corporations are partly the blame for even hiring an illegal immigrant.... the government should focus on arresting those who hire illegals....

All the U.S. have to do is help Mexico get its economy on track and stop trying to maintain all of the power in this world. Sharing is a good thing.... greed is NOT.

The United States has done a lot of dirt in its history and the time will come where it reaps what it has sown and I'm afraid that time is approaching.

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» RE: My Take on Immigration Posted by: symcokid
» RE: My Take on Immigration Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: My Take on Immigration Posted by: symcokid
» RE: My Take on Immigration Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: My Take on Immigration Posted by: bearw_me
A FEW NOTES …
Posted by: Joshua Holland on Apr 11, 2006 2:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
… and then there’s a bonus track -- a discussion of things uneconomic -- over in The Mix.

Not all of the research that suggests there are negative economic effects of immigration is junk put out by agenda-driven shops like CIS. Harvard economists George Boras, Richard Freeman and Lawrence Katz published an influential study in 1997 that estimated that 44% of the decline in wages that high school drop-outs suffered between 1980 and 1995 were a result of immigration.

Extending that work, Arthur Sakamoto and Changhwan Kim of the University of Texas got similar results in a more recent study (PDF).

Readers will surely accuse me of leaving those things out for ideological reasons.

The real reason I omitted them is that they’re based on economic simulations and are at odds with a large body of research using real labor markets and real live immigrants. The simulations have assumptions that other scholars have questioned. Howard Chang at Penn State notes that Borjas, Freeman and Katz themselves have conceded that their model “will likely overstate the economic effects of immigration.” If and when the real-world data corresponds with their models, we’ll have to look at it again.

Speaking of Chang, I relied on his analysis in Migration Theory (Routledge 2000), which is a good overview of the subject from a bunch of different scholarly perspectives.

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» RE: A FEW NOTES … Posted by: drone
» RE: A FEW NOTES … Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: A FEW NOTES … Posted by: drone
» RE: A FEW NOTES … Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: A FEW NOTES … Posted by: drone
» RE: A FEW NOTES … Posted by: Joshua Holland
» If we can't rely on studies . . . Posted by: stormchilde1975
» Anecdotal evidence . . . Posted by: stormchilde1975
» another apology Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: another apology Posted by: drone
» Thank you Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: Thank you Posted by: drone
Great piece
Posted by: midge on Apr 11, 2006 2:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is exactly what is needed-an in-depth and detailed look at the issues in which their root causes are addressed, as well as an analysis of the different takes on those issues. It also puts things in perspective in that these root causes are too often ignored and so it's easy to see why the focus is so often only on immigration. That being said, I can still understand the thoughts and feelings of those on both sides of the debate (save for those that are xenophobic, nationalist, or neo-liberal, thought they don't seem to be represented on this site too much) and why it's such an emotionally charged issue.

So what do you tell that small number of American workers who compete with immigrant labor to their detriment? There's no good answer, and proponents of immigrant rights have to face that honestly
This is a true and honest statement, and it is for this reason that, while I support immigrants rights and strongly sympathize with their cause, I can understand and sympathize with those that have been hurt or fear being hurt by this. In addition to the groups of workers mentioned in the article, people with hidden disabilities and social disabilities like Asperger's Syndrome (such as myself, and many others as it is relatively common), high-functioning autism, mild developmental disorders, among others, and people who don't feel they are cut out for or can't afford college, people who didn't finish high school (and it is not always out of lack of motivation; I know people who dropped out because they were bullied so badly) can also be affected (people with more severe disabilities can be as well, though I think many of them receive good assistance, and rightfully so). Because of our poor social skills, the kinds of jobs often sought by immigrants are ideal for us if for whatever reason we can't train for/get/keep more skilled and specialized jobs; they are sort of a safety net. However, I don't think the issue is one of immigration but rather one of improving resources for people with hidden/social disabilities as well as people who've just had difficulty getting an education or finding work and having more empathy for them rather than ignoring them or looking down on them or leaving them behind as our society does now.

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» RE: Great piece Posted by: dlf
» to Midge: not about immigrtion Posted by: plantland
cui bono?
Posted by: Baal_Labs on Apr 11, 2006 3:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wonderful research on who is behind the anti-immigration lobby.

Now maybe Joshua can research who pays Alternet to put out an endless stream of pro-immigration propaganda. And how they stand to benefit financially...at our expense.

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» RE: cui bono? Posted by: numen
» Just a matter of perspective Posted by: Baal_Labs
» RE: Just a matter of perspective Posted by: brasilaron
» I can appreciate! Posted by: johnsh
OK, I give up, Joshua! Your determined, so here is my compliance.
Posted by: Prophit on Apr 11, 2006 4:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am going to support the raise in H2B visas that are being proposed for educated and degreed workers from other countries.

I am then going to support they replace you with one of them at half your salary and then I am going to say that its a lie that they replaced you, even though we can see that they did.

In addition, I am going to then hire your families domestic illegal away from you by paying her $3 an hour rather than the $2 an hour that you pay her even though I can get someone cheaper just to make my point.

Finally, I am going to send over a newly entered illegal to replace the one that I hired who has hepititas C (which we had pretty much iradicated) and who will then prepare your food for you and your children. Then she will get free medical cause your only paying her $2 per hour and your family will have to pay the $1,000 deductible on your insurance because you don't have free medical, in order to get treatment for your son.

He, of course, will always have Hepititas C since its not curable and of course, your fine with that. Who cares about the children, right? Who cares about the reemergence of all that disease since we don't care about responsible legal immigration anymore that addresses those problems up front at time of application.

Or maybe I will point out to one of the rapists (who got released from Prison in Mexico as long as he leaves the country) where you live so he can check out your daughter. Would that be ok with you??? Well, of course.

See, guys like you live in some world other than ours down here in the trenches. You live in an ivory tower where you never have to deal with real issues of everyday life. Tell the families of all those children who died eating food at a restaurant where the vegetables came from Mexico and had e coli that killed kids. You don't eat at those places so you have nothing to worry about.

Academicians live somewhere in the world of "studies" and it depends on who is financing them as to the results of the "study" which we all know can be scewed anyway you wish. Frankly, we our here are sick and tired of it all and have reached our limit.

Your in a fantasy world with patronizing and condescending comments about the rest of us who live with this everyday. Do you know why your told not to eat the fruits and vegetables when you go to Mexico??? Yet, we now ship them into our country without checking them out for problems???

Its BECAUSE THEY USE HUGE TRUCK LOADS OF HUMAN WASTE AS FERTILIZER FOR GROWING THE FRUITS AND VEGETABLES. OR DIDN'T YOU KNOW THAT. Now its being transported here under the free trade agreement. No wonder the illegals are sick. Someone needs to go to mexico and deal with those leaders down there who allow this on their own people.

This is a crime what you all are doing.

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» RE:Not blaming illegals... Posted by: plantland
corporatist exploiting illegal migrations
Posted by: lclark on Apr 11, 2006 4:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here a bit of personal experience from someone who would not agree with illegal migrants not taking jobs:
"I live in Minnesota which is as far from the Mexican border as should be necessary to be out of the Mexican invasion but not so due to a local Hormel meat packing plant that thought it would improve its profits if it replaced all the union workers with Mexicans. They never had a shortage of workers; in fact, they had a waiting list of legal citizens wanting jobs there, but now they won't hire an American citizen because the Mexicans don't like working along side whites; and well, accidents happen. I moved out of town so my kids could go to school without fear of violence. Mexican gangs are rampant even in the elementary schools. To add insults to injuries, I have often been harassed by Mexicans. What really got me steamed is the other day I went to Walmart and a Mexican kid wore an Aztlan T-shirt. Though in Spanish, it depicted the western USA combined with Mexico colored in with the Mexican flag. Ironic given that he's living in Minnesota which isn't even in the 'Aztlan' territory. Big business is making a lot of money off of their 'cheaper labor' but we are paying for it. "
http://www.rense.com/general70/horridf.htm

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Data, oh no.
Posted by: brad on Apr 11, 2006 4:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Finally a good analysis of the issues. The data is clear, now lets see the responses. Labeling pro corporate is already flying, but the truth is that corporations benifit most from the current system. A move to grant citizenship would help ALL workers.

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» RE: Data, oh no. Posted by: dlf
» I don't see the problem. Posted by: stormchilde1975
» We know, we can tell........ Posted by: Prophit
» Its all pluses..... Posted by: brad
» RE: Its all pluses..... Posted by: Prophit
» Hang on Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: I don't see the problem. Posted by: VisionQuest
» Not quite Posted by: stormchilde1975
» Gee, I'm convinced Posted by: Baal_Labs
» RE: Gee, I'm convinced Posted by: brad
» RE: Gee, I'm convinced Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Gee, I'm convinced Posted by: Baal_Labs
Thanks, Joshua
Posted by: Uncle Tupelo on Apr 11, 2006 4:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're absolutely right that immigration is an issue, and one that Democrats (and other progressives) should be paying close attention to. And I think we should recognize that the energy the immigration posts on Alternet have generated demonstrate the anxiety people are feeling about the job losses and stagnant wage growth that globalization has helped along. It's not so much that Alternet readers are competing with Mexican immigrants for low-wage no-benefit jobs, but immigrants have moved into the fall-back jobs that people can imagine themselves turning to if their own personal economic situation gets bleaker. Xenophobia and bigotry aren't answers, especially for progressives, but we shouldn't ignore anyone's economic pain.

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» Backatcha Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Backatcha Posted by: Uncle Tupelo
» RE: Backatcha Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Backatcha Posted by: Uncle Tupelo
» RE: Backatcha Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Backatcha Posted by: Uncle Tupelo
» RE: Backatcha Posted by: YogiBear
Real Costs of Immigration
Posted by: DrGeneNelson on Apr 11, 2006 5:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua Holland's essay is thought provoking, but has several logical flaws. The biggest flaw is the thesis that "immigration is good." If the reader accepts Holland's thesis, then it should be true that "even more immigration is better." Actually, glutted labor markets diminish the market clearing price for labor, which benefits the economic elite. Immigrants demand for goods and services drives up the price of goods and services like gasoline and rents. In Dallas, Texas rents have at least doubled since 1993. Ditto for gasoline. So, U.S. citizens have diminished real wages and inflated prices. Most of the "value add" in this proposition ends up in the pockets of the fat cats.

The adverse impacts of immigration on the college-educated AlterNet readership are well - documented.
The Bottom of the Pay Scale Wages for H-1B Computer Programmers - December 2005 By John Miano.
"The Labor Demand Curve is Downward Sloping: Reexamining the Impact of Immigration on the Labor Market," Quarterly Journal of Economics, November 2003, pp. 1335-1374.
"The Labor Market Impact of High Skill Immigration," American Economic Review, May 2005.
"Immigration in High-Skill Labor Markets: The Impact of Foreign Students on the Earnings of Doctorates," March 2006.
A 10 percent immigration-induced increase in the supply of doctorates lowers the wage of competing workers by about 3 to 4 percent. About half of this adverse wage effect can be attributed to the increased prevalence of low-pay postdoctoral appointments in fields that have softer labor market conditions because of large-scale immigration.

How and Why Government, Universities, and Industry Create Domestic Labor Shortages
of Scientists and High-Tech Workers. By Eric Weinstein


Joshua agrees that the U.S. Union Movement has been emasculated. Why? Pliant immigrant migrants whose employment visas are subject to immediate revocation (A corporate creation of the Immigration Act of 1990.)

Learn more about the corrupt political process that created this disaster at the author's website The Microsoft - Abramoff - Rep. Tom DeLay Triangle

Dr. Gene A. Nelson

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» Dr.? Wow! Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: Dr.? Wow! Posted by: drone
» Partial apology Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: Partial apology Posted by: drone
» RE: Partial apology Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: eal Costs of Immigration Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: eal Costs of Immigration Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: eal Costs of Immigration Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: eal Costs of Immigration Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: eal Costs of Immigration Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: eal Costs of Immigration Posted by: YogiBear
Illegal Immigrants are this year's "queers"
Posted by: sausage on Apr 11, 2006 5:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(I posted this here yesterday, and it's still appropriate)
This is a wedge issue par excellence. It plays right into the Republcian base's inherent misanthropy(that's racism to you, Prophit .)

Despite all of Sensenbrenner's huffing and puffing about 700 mile wall, arresting Catholic Workers giving water to Mexicans and Central Americans crossing the desert, the GOP ain't gonna do a thing! Why should they, their big business contributors, Tyson Food and Wal-Mart among others, hire too many undocumented workers to stop now.

The Republicans have found a wedge they can drive into the ground all summer and hope that enough folks, who are otherwise fed-up with Bush and all the administration's shenanigans, will vote'em back into office in November.

Then the GOP won't do a f*ckin' thing about immigration "reform."

Why do you think Frist killed the McCain/Kennedy compromise and House Republicans are still stomping around like a bunch of little Brown Shirts.

Wedge issue politics. That's all it is, folks.
(Now,an addendum)
But from the turnout at Sunday and Monday's demonstrations it seems as if the knuckledraggers of the Republican Party have picked a fight with people who are ready, willing and able to fight back. And, unlike gay pride parades, the marches yesterday and Sunday featured families, so the MSM couldn't focus on the flamboyant, the outrageous and the just plain kooky exceptions among the marchers to make the rule.

This goes on long enough a real A Day Without a Mexican maybe in the offing.

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Here is an entirely different Interpretation of the Statistical Evidence
Posted by: russellcole38 on Apr 11, 2006 6:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From the Labor Market, 2000-2005
March 2006
By Steven A. Camarota
Download the .pdf version
Read the panel discussion transcript

Advocates of legalizing illegal aliens and increasing legal immigration argue that there are no Americans to fill low-wage jobs that require relatively little education. However, data collected by the Census Bureau show that, even prior to Hurricane Katrina, there were almost four million unemployed adult natives (age 18 to 64) with just a high school degree or less, and another 19 million not in the labor force. Perhaps most troubling, the share of these less-educated adult natives in the labor force has declined steadily since 2000.
• Looking first at all workers shows that between March 2000 and March 2005 only 9 percent of the net increase in jobs for adults (18 to 64) went to natives. This is striking because natives accounted for 61 percent of the net increase in the overall size of the 18 to 64 year old population.
• As for the less-educated, between March of 2000 and 2005 the number of adult immigrants (legal and illegal) with only a high school degree or less in the labor force increased by 1.6 million.
• At the same time, unemployment among less-educated adult natives increased by nearly one million, and the number of natives who left the labor force altogether increased by 1.5 million. Persons not in the labor force are neither working nor looking for work.
• In total, there are 11.6 million less-educated adult immigrants in the labor force, nearly half of whom are estimated to be illegal aliens.
• Of perhaps greatest concern, the percentage of adult natives without a high school degree who are in the labor force fell from 59 to 56 percent between March 2000 and 2005, and for adult natives with only a high school degree participation in the labor force fell from 78 to 75 percent.
• Had labor force participation remained the same, there would have been an additional 450,000 adult native dropouts and 1.4 million adult natives with only a high school degree in the labor force.
• Data collected since Hurricane Katrina, in January 2006, show no improvement in labor force participation for less-educated natives. It shows a modest improvement in unemployment only for adult native dropouts, but not for natives with only a high school degree.
• The decline in less-educated adult natives (18 to 64) in the labor market does not seem to be the result of more parents staying home with young children, increased college enrollment, or early retirement.
• There is some direct evidence that immigration has harmed less-educated natives; states with the largest increase in immigrants also saw larger declines in natives working; and in occupational categories that received the most new immigrants, native unemployment averages 10 percent.
• While most natives are more educated, and don’t face competition from less-educated immigrants, detailed analysis of 473 separate occupations shows that 17 million less-educated adult natives work in occupations with a high concentrations of immigrants.
• Some of the occupations most impacted by immigration include maids, construction laborers, dishwashers, janitors, painters, cabbies, grounds keepers, and meat/poultry workers. The overwhelming majority of workers in these occupations are native-born.
• The workers themselves are not the only thing to consider; nearly half of American children (under 18) are dependent on a less-educated worker, and 71 percent of children of the native-born working poor depend on a worker with a high school degree or less.

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Slack-Jawed Nativists?
Posted by: playitsam on Apr 11, 2006 6:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Talk about simplistic! The idea that if you are against illegal immigration you are simply an uneducated hillbilly, is not only insulting but appalling in its dismissal of the anti-illegal. Just because a person is not in favor of blanket amnesty and open borders doesn't make them stupid or xenophobic or racist - despite what a lot of immigrants and their advocates say. This isssue has become another cause that those who call themselves "liberals" have taken up and the author is a good example of this. It seems to me that a lot of liberals have decided that the working poor are to be disparaged as people who don't want to do dirty jobs. That's not true and where there aren't a lot of illegal immigrants those jobs are filled by those working poor. Supporting unending illegal immigration by pronouncing an instant amnesty is a slap in the face at people who are struggling. Construction jobs are a good example of jobs that are more and more in danger to the native born and LEGAL immigrants. What is needed is true immigration reform and more funds given to the Immigration and Naturalization Service so they can do their jobs more effectively. In addition better border security NOW! This is not about xenophobia or racism and dismissing those who are opposed to illegal immigration as simply a bunch of red-neck yahoos is nothing more than reverse racism

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» Straw Man Posted by: stormchilde1975
» I should have said . . . Posted by: stormchilde1975
» I read the article! Posted by: stormchilde1975
Just because Bracero was bad...
Posted by: brunowe on Apr 11, 2006 6:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...doesn't mean that a guest-worker program has to be today. A good program would, like Bush's, give employees 45 days to find another job and actually make the protections stick this time. Enforcement of this could be tied with a general increase in enforcement against employers hiring illegals (long overdue).

I also note that you haven't looked at the follow-on effect of citizenship for illegals, that it will send a green light to other aspiring illegal immigrants.

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» Different limit? Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Different limit? Posted by: drone
» RE: Different limit? Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Different limit? Posted by: drone
Here are some more dissenting viewpoints to the Alternets feel-good politics
Posted by: russellcole38 on Apr 11, 2006 6:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JOBS LOST AND FOUND At California construction sites like this one, well-paid work that used to go to native-born Americans is going to lower-paid immigrants.
By JOHN M. BRODER
Published: April 2, 2006
LOS ANGELES
Plentiful, Productive — and Illegal
IT is asserted both as fact and as argument: the United States needs a constant flow of immigrants to perform jobs Americans will not stoop to do.
But what if those jobs paid $50 an hour, with benefits, instead of $7 or $10 or $15?
"Of course there are jobs that few Americans will take because the wages and working conditions have been so degraded by employers," said Jared Bernstein, of the liberal Economic Policy Institute. "But there is nothing about landscaping, food processing, meat cutting or construction that would preclude someone from doing these jobs on the basis of their nativity. Nothing would keep anyone, immigrant or native born, from doing them if they paid better, if they had health care."
The most comprehensive recent study of immigrant workers comes from the Center for Immigration Studies, a group that, unlike Mr. Bernstein's, advocates stricter controls on immigration. The study, by the center's research director, Steven A. Camarota, found that immigrants are a majority of workers in only 4 of 473 job classifications — stucco masons, tailors, produce sorters and beauty salon workers. But even in those four job categories, native-born workers account for more than 40 percent of the work force.
While it might be a challenge to find an American-born cab driver in New York or parking lot attendant in Phoenix or grape cutter in the San Joaquin Valley of California, according to Mr. Camarota's study of census data from 2000-2005, 59 percent of cab drivers in the United States are native born, as are 66 percent of all valet parkers. Half of all workers in agriculture were born in this country.
"The idea that there are jobs that Americans won't do is economic gibberish," Mr. Camarota said. "All the big occupations that immigrants are in — construction, janitorial, even agriculture — are overwhelmingly done by native Americans."
But where they compete for jobs, he said, the immigrants have driven up the jobless rate for some Americans. According to his study, published in March, unemployment among the native born with less than a high school education was 14.3 percent in 2005; the figure for the immigrant population was 7.4 percent.
While Mr. Bernstein would agree that the least-educated American workers are at a disadvantage, he does not favor curbs on immigration. Even the least-skilled Americans benefit from the presence of a large pool of immigrant workers, Mr. Bernstein said. He said that the 11 million illegal immigrants are consumers, too, creating demand for goods and services and the jobs they produce. He also said their willingness to work at low wages helps keep inflation in check, benefiting the nation as a whole.
But George J. Borjas, a professor of economics and social policy at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, said he believed that the flow of migrants had significantly depressed wages for Americans in virtually all job categories and income levels. His study found that the average annual wage loss for all American male workers from 1980 to 2000 was $1,200, or 4 percent, and nearly twice that, in percentage terms, for those without a high school diploma. The impact was also disproportionately high on African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans, Professor Borjas found.
"What this is, is a huge redistribution of wealth away from workers who compete with immigrants to those who employ them," he said.

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Race To The Bottom
Posted by: dlf on Apr 11, 2006 7:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are many Americans who simply like to work with our hands and don't mind, in fact, we enjoy breaking a sweat. Intelligence levels don't have anything to do with that. Neither does education. Quite often you would find people from all different labor segments who would retire from say Air Traffic Controller to Hotwalker simply because they could make a living without all the stress of customer service or some other job. Joshua has a limited world view, and obviously doesn't know many people who aren't driven by a profit motive. This article is representative of his dismissal of the skills it takes to do many of the jobs today considered unskilled. Do you really want a person without skills building a bridge or your house? Good luck to you if you do. If you owned a horse you paid thousands of dollars for, would you want the person caring for your horse not to be able to recognize collic, or be able to call the vet and start tending to the animal until the vet arrives? My guess is no, but according to Joshua none of these skills has a value. I've also read where the number of injuries is up at meatpacking plants a very hazardous job, could that be due to the often less than 8th grade education held by America's new working class immigrant? The question that Joshua and his crew never seem to answer is, why do Americans have to have a list of references and a diploma for jobs held by people with neither? Who dropped the skill level of these jobs the Americans who used to do them, or the employers who decided they would rather have no skill and cheap labor? We used to be a nation that strived to be the best, we're not even looking to be mediocre today. In the meantime you will hear people saying Blacks don't try to do better. I ask where is the advantage in that, when you have a system that discourages skill, in favor of exploiting one's illega status?

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Remittances?
Posted by: brunowe on Apr 11, 2006 7:24 AM   
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Joshua, do you have any data on how much money made by illegals is sent to relatives back home? I wonder because that could effect the questions of how much they put into the US economy relative to citizens (although legal aliens would presumably be doing remittances as well).

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» RE: emittances? Posted by: Prophit
» Not quite true Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: Not quite true Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» RE: emittances? Posted by: Joshua Holland
Something Doesn't Add Up
Posted by: bigart on Apr 11, 2006 7:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are people wanting to come work in our country. There are employers looking for such workers. Why hasn't our government set up a mechanism by which these workers and employers can get together. Why hasn't an easy immigration system been established and enough people hired to process these immigrations legally. Could it be that by keeping the immigrant workers in a bad legal situation the employers can get away with paying them less. I propose new easy access immigration laws, the hiring of people to quickly process iimigrants through this system and an increase of the minimum wage to $10.25.

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Progressive Policy Big Picture
Posted by: StuartH on Apr 11, 2006 8:26 AM   
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If there is to be a progressive alternative to the knee-jerk "they take our jobs" simplistic analysis, it has to come from looking at the big picture.

American foreign policy with respect to our neighbors south of the border has been horrendous for over a century. It is not outrageous to say that it is a continuation of the attitudes that the US government formed its policy towards Native Americans around.

Isn't it ironic that the racist aspect of the reaction against immigrants is at least an echo of, if not actually, some horror that Indian people should be moving into the US. Holy Historic Karma!

From support of the juntas that sent out killing squads to suppress dissent in the 1980s, to setting up agreements like NAFTA and CAFTA in contempt of the need to assure the needs of local subsistence farmers in Mexico, our policies have really been incredibly short sighted.

We need more thoughtful journalism like this. We need more facts and we need more consideration of the big picture.

There is too much talk-radio oversimplification and appeal to knee jerk thinking.

I wish that there were progressives offering intelligent alternatives. Perhaps at this time, the noise level provoked by the Republicans makes intelligent debate difficult. But as
the election of 2006 nears, and then moves towards the election of 2008 I hope that progressive policy insights begin to coalesce.

I think if you look at the whole big picture in terms of sustainable policy, you connect the needs of local people in Mexico and the whole southern hemisphere to improved conditions for labor in the northern hemisphere as well. You
also look at the environmental conditions that should be factored in. You also look at how foreign policy and military
intervention affect economics overall. Banks and corporations
are the fire that is causing the smoke of the immigration phenomenon. We have to look at what is going on there and how the larger interests of the populations of all of the countries of both the northern and southern hemispere should supercede special interests.

Until you address the way all the dots connect, you don't have a progressive alternative to the Minute Man mindset.

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» Ohhhh, give me a break!!! Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Progressive Policy Big Picture Posted by: liberalmedia
Why do I see a master plan behind this issue?
Posted by: DrC on Apr 11, 2006 8:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I few weeks ago the consensus in the press was that the Republicans were going to implode over this issue, as the utterly unrealistic attempt to send tens of millions of undocumented immigrants back across the border, and the criminalization of church workers who would dare give food to a hungry illegal would all backfire. But now I'm wondering whether those outrageous policies weren't all a smokescreen designed precisely to bring people out into the streets. The beauty of major rallies from the point of view of Fox News and their ilk is that in any huge rally, you can find an extremely broad array of views. All they had to do was focus on the handful of morons with signs demanding the expulsion of "whites" from Arizona or California, and a few other incendiary comments, and boom: all of a sudden the ignorant American voter can be convinced that soon hot dogs at baseball games will be replaced by Burritos and non-Spanish speakers will be unable to function in our society. All the while, the Republicans knew damn well that the outcry their immoral policy proposals would generate enough heat-sans-light on the left that they could fill the O'Reilly factor and the Sean Hannity hour with an array of angry misfits to project exactly the image they want on this issue. Meanwhile, a reasonable discussion on this topic gets drowned out by the shrill on either side. And when that happens, the reality of America as a conservative and fairly xenophobic nation (especially when the foreigners have darker skin) determines that the "nativists" win out. Maybe this is too conspiratorial, but that's just my take on it today. Meanwhile, the exploiters of these immigrants who pay them dirt will never ever ever have to pay the price for profiting from their cheap labor.

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» Beisbol Posted by: johnk100
Knuckle-Dragging Neutered Neocon Nabobs
Posted by: freeda on Apr 11, 2006 9:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You see what happens Josh when you devolve into name-calling instead of real discussion and respect for differing opinions? You end up without credibility or respect for your position and you just end up pissing off a lot of people and skulking off like a wounded whiner.

Face the truth here. All of your spin, framing, name-calling and misrepresentation get you no-where fast.

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» hey now Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: hey now Posted by: YogiBear
Question for Josh
Posted by: VisionQuest on Apr 11, 2006 9:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you believe that there should be any restrictions on immigration into the U.S. at all? If so, what form should those restrictions take and how should they be enforced?

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» RE: Question for Josh Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Question for Josh Posted by: VisionQuest
» RE: Question for Josh Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Question for Josh Posted by: VisionQuest
» RE: Question for Josh Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Question for Josh Posted by: gar
» RE: Question for Josh Posted by: brad
» RE: Question for Josh Posted by: dlf
» RE: Question for Josh Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Question for Josh Posted by: dlf
» RE: Question for Josh Posted by: JoshuaHolland
» RE: Question for Josh Posted by: dlf
» RE: Question for Josh Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Question for Josh Posted by: dlf
» RE: Question for Josh Posted by: YogiBear
Here is an editorial from the slack-jawed, nativist, liberal economist at Princeton
Posted by: russellcole38 on Apr 11, 2006 9:51 AM   
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North of the Border
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: March 27, 2006
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free," wrote Emma Lazarus, in a poem that still puts a lump in my throat. I'm proud of America's immigrant history, and grateful that the door was open when my grandparents fled Russia.
In other words, I'm instinctively, emotionally pro-immigration. But a review of serious, nonpartisan research reveals some uncomfortable facts about the economics of modern immigration, and immigration from Mexico in particular. If people like me are going to respond effectively to anti-immigrant demagogues, we have to acknowledge those facts.
First, the net benefits to the U.S. economy from immigration, aside from the large gains to the immigrants themselves, are small. Realistic estimates suggest that immigration since 1980 has raised the total income of native-born Americans by no more than a fraction of 1 percent.
Second, while immigration may have raised overall income slightly, many of the worst-off native-born Americans are hurt by immigration — especially immigration from Mexico. Because Mexican immigrants have much less education than the average U.S. worker, they increase the supply of less-skilled labor, driving down the wages of the worst-paid Americans. The most authoritative recent study of this effect, by George Borjas and Lawrence Katz of Harvard, estimates that U.S. high school dropouts would earn as much as 8 percent more if it weren't for Mexican immigration.
That's why it's intellectually dishonest to say, as President Bush does, that immigrants do "jobs that Americans will not do." The willingness of Americans to do a job depends on how much that job pays — and the reason some jobs pay too little to attract native-born Americans is competition from poorly paid immigrants.
Finally, modern America is a welfare state, even if our social safety net has more holes in it than it should — and low-skill immigrants threaten to unravel that safety net.
Basic decency requires that we provide immigrants, once they're here, with essential health care, education for their children, and more. As the Swiss writer Max Frisch wrote about his own country's experience with immigration, "We wanted a labor force, but human beings came." Unfortunately, low-skill immigrants don't pay enough taxes to cover the cost of the benefits they receive.
Worse yet, immigration penalizes governments that act humanely. Immigrants are a much more serious fiscal problem in California than in Texas, which treats the poor and unlucky harshly, regardless of where they were born.
We shouldn't exaggerate these problems. Mexican immigration, says the Borjas-Katz study, has played only a "modest role" in growing U.S. inequality. And the political threat that low-skill immigration poses to the welfare state is more serious than the fiscal threat: the disastrous Medicare drug bill alone does far more to undermine the finances of our social insurance system than the whole burden of dealing with illegal immigrants.
But modest problems are still real problems, and immigration is becoming a major political issue. What are we going to do about it?
Realistically, we'll need to reduce the inflow of low-skill immigrants. Mainly that means better controls on illegal immigration. But the harsh anti-immigration legislation passed by the House, which has led to huge protests — legislation that would, among other things, make it a criminal act to provide an illegal immigrant with medical care — is simply immoral....

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the religion of political activism
Posted by: cry0fan on Apr 11, 2006 11:14 AM   
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we can all see many examples in history, recent and distant past, where humans beings act irrationally.

Suiciders, cults, imperial war machines suck millions into their maw, causing people to act totally irrationally. Nazi war machine with its gas chambers, the japanese war machine with its kamikaze pilots, the American-British capitalist war machine, with its military tradition and frequent use of its military.

ALWAYS, we see that it is the elite who manipulate the media and society and culture in order to motivate and indoctrinate people to act against their own best interests and to act cruelly. Always look to the institutions and leaders of such societies. Look to what the elite media do and say.

Look at what OUR media does and says. You know that there is MUCH MONEY at stake in this illegal immigration scam. Right? Money to be made by the elite, by the busiinessman, by the corporations, etc.

Now look at what the mass media does. See how they slant the issues, what connotations they use, which words they pick, what music and lighting they use when they deal with this illegal immigration issues.
Is there ANY DOUBT that the mass media wants more mass illegal immigration?

Look at the picture in this illegal immigration story on their front page

http://www.nytimes.com

That is a VERY positive picture!

Here is the first paragraph of the story:
WASHINGTON, April 10 — Waving American flags and blue banners that read "We Are America," throngs of cheering, chanting immigrants and their supporters converged on the nation's capital and in scores of other cities on Monday calling on Congress to offer legal status and citizenship to millions of illegal immigrants.


POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE TOWARDS IMMIGRATION? I say completely positive! The mass media is leading us, manufacturing consent for more mass immigration....That is the way it has ALWAYS been here in America and in other elite-dominated cultures.

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how disingenious it is to accuse other people as ideologically driven
Posted by: russellcole38 on Apr 11, 2006 2:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do not know why I am so distressed by the recent wave of quasi-journalistic, highly opinionated - I am referring to the ostensibly bigotted reference to 'slack-jawed nativists' - stream of rhetorical jestures denounciating globalization while advocating policies that promote its expansion. I suppose it is because I use to enjoy this publication. However, this is not journalism; it is, rather, a series of political polemics, which offer extremely skewed and ideologically motivated representations of this issue. To assert that a case study involving a single incident in a single socio-ecological environment - the city of Miami - is a tell-all appraisal of the economic impact of illegal immigration, in all of its instances, is absolutely absurd. There is no accounting for the unique conditions instantiated by this specified context, and to make such a generalization, which ascribes properties to the American economy, is not only an illogical act of inductive inference, it is also a conflation of different levels of analysis; a city economy with the national economy. Why do you not just concede that there is no definitive estimation of all of the effects that illegal immigration has with respect to this country? As a journalist, you should feel compelled to provide a fair representation of all of the perspectives that are part of the political matrix with regards to this issue. This public debate transcends any typical divides between the Right and the Left, and it is disingenious to attempt to usurp the entirtey of the Leftist political identity in this country by denounciating everybody who disagrees as a 'slack-jawed,' simpleton. These practices of name-calling - this case in particular, which makes reference to stereotypes connoting enbreading - indicate a reflexive awareness of ones self that manifests a sentiment of genetic superiority. Who is the real biggot in this debate?
Russell Cole

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» READING COMPREHENSION Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: ADING COMPREHENSION Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: ADING COMPREHENSION Posted by: russellcole38
» Bravo!!!! Posted by: kathat
» RE: Bravo!!!! Posted by: yellow
» RE: Bravo!!!! Posted by: kathat
» RE: Bravo!!!! Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Bravo!!!! Posted by: dlf
Since when did breaking the law become ok
Posted by: bwilmot on Apr 11, 2006 3:41 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we want to argue it from a practical point of view sure, normalize current illegal immigrants residing in the US right now. Review them all and weed the criminal element out which is a small but important portion of the illegal population.

Regardless though you can't justify people flouting the law merely cause it suits them. (Sound like a president I know) Not everyone ignores the law. Why should some be able to get away with it? Freeriders should not be paraded around as victims. Should we legistate racism, NO, but regulating immigration is not inherently racism. We can argue external causes for immigration (NAFTA), internal (employers), gov'ts, etc. but regardless you have individuals who are breaking the law and belittling the efforts of those who came legally.We are building an econmic system that races to the bottom in many forms, and immigration still plays a role regardless of the extent argued in the article above.

The argument I love to hate is the, "well white, suburban americans don't want to do these jobs anyways." Maybe because the jobs are so low paying. Employers need to be fined, punished, etc. and illegal workers who are using the infrastructure etc. and not paying into the system to the level their legal compatriots are should also be dealt with.

Also, why did immigration/emmigration suddenly become an excuse for not dealing with problems at home. Great so NAFTA screwed Mexico, why the hell did Mexico sign it? Why don't they repeal it? NAFTA screwed over everyone pretty much, its an equal opportunity clusterF***. Some liberals want to run away to Canada cause of the Bush Twins(or the father), when I say that's weak and disgraceful as they leave the rest of us to rot in this cesspool by ourselves. Why doesn't the same go for others around the world? Mexico is messed up, but why aren't the 6 million illegal immigrants protesting in Mexico city, El Salvador, etc. about changing the system, ridding the system of corruption, etc. It's not like our system is free of it here.

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» Hahahahaa! Posted by: Prophit
Umm
Posted by: Elmowilcox on Apr 11, 2006 3:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are so many flaws in the arguments of both sides, mostly because both choose to present points that don't take various important factors into play. On the pro-noborders side they choose to portray this a racist plot to keep taxpaying, law abiding, Migrant worker supermen out of our country. On the pro-nomorebrownies side of it they fall far short of the exact on full spectrum of the impact said migrants has on our country. As usual, everything is watered down for the masses. Supporters of open borders don't want to mention the workers that pay absolutely no taxes, those with no insurance that get into accidents(and those who in turn pay higher rates among other things), the County Hospitals with no choice but to assist(and those who float the bill), and various other problems inherent with undocumented people trying to live somewhere they don't belong(yet, in the case of those actually going through the processes). On the other side of the debate, national security? Come on people. Next, bad credit is a threat to NS, then being late to work, higher cable rates, so on and so forth in that fashion. Point:is anything bad that can happen in this country now under the catagory of threat to nat'l security? Sure seems so. Kind of makes a lot of arguments pretty weak though. Especially when you consider that this Immigration debate started a long time ago before we worried about Osama coming from below. If you are shaping your argument to fit the times, it weakens its credibility, IMO.

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» RE: Umm Posted by: YogiBear
Get Off to a Good Start
Posted by: 1rufus1 on Apr 11, 2006 4:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you are a person from another country and you would like to eventually become a citizen, or work here, how about trying to apply first from your side of the border and respect our immigration laws. At least be patient until the laws are changed. Don't come gang-busting across poorly guarded borders and bullying politicians to change laws to suit yourselves. America is a nation of laws and the first rule of thumb should be for those seeking work and/or citizenship in the US is to respect our laws. Even immigration law. I have compassion for the desperate people south of the border and I see a place for some in business that needs them, but I have no respect for anyone who breaks the law by crossing our borders, seeking under the table wages, and marching in the streets to change social laws to suit them like they have a right to do so. Yes I know some marching are citizens and have every right to protest or push for anything they want, but let's not encourage large groups of people from storming across our borders at will and then dictate policy. Please follow our laws, respect them, and maybe things will work out for the best for both worlds. Let's get off to a good start on this immigration issue.

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» RE: Get Off to a Good Start Posted by: liberalmedia
Title Of This Peace
Posted by: dlf on Apr 11, 2006 4:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It really takes some balls to think that are so omnipotent that ONLY YOU can write the defining piece on this issue. God, I would so hate to have to deal with that ego at home.

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» RE: Title Of This Peace Posted by: freeda
its a distraction / just like 2004 distraction was gay marriage
Posted by: fuzypupy on Apr 11, 2006 5:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
why hasnt anyone noticed this is election year distraction for the media to focus on something other then the corruption and scandal in the GOP party right now

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slack jaws are really flapping now!
Posted by: outsidea on Apr 11, 2006 5:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yay Joshua, another great commentary.

The slacked jawed ones are really showing their true colors and flapping their jaws like crazy.

Lets hear more!

Joseph

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While you were busy....
Posted by: rg on Apr 11, 2006 6:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As of today, 2359 American men and women have died in Iraq.
Sorry to interrupt the real important topic that's raging here; please continue.
Oh, and one more thing - save up your loose change so that you can flip it at those vets with stumps, when you encounter them at traffic lights.

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» RE: While you were busy.... Posted by: VisionQuest
Is This Your Best Shot AlterNet?
Posted by: gar on Apr 11, 2006 7:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This author accuses studies showing negative impact on social programs, tax systems and American workers of using junk data to justify their conclusions. Lets take a look and see how well some of his hold up.

In one paragraph he says "...there are an estimated 12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States, up from around five million in the mid-1990s. As a percentage of the population, there are fewer foreign-born in America today than there were in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. At less than five percent, immigrants are a much lower percentage of the civilian work force than we've had in past eras." This is a logical error similar to comparing apples to oranges. In one sentence he is talking about "undocumented immigrants." In the next, he is talking about "foreign-born in America" as if the two terms were interchangeable. They are not. Any one who can draw a Venn diagram will no doubt see immediately that the class "foreign-born in America" contains the class "undocumented immigrants" as well as other classes of immigrants. Therefore, this argument is fallacious.

"According to the Census Bureau (PDF), less than half of all immigrants come from Central and South America." The same percentage of the foreign-born population has college degrees as Americans (although fewer have high school degrees)." Yes, and so what? How does this apply to illegal aliens?

Almost every argument I read that is pro illegal alien makes these kinds of logical errors. Whither deliberate or accidental I don't know. I do know that these errors could be avoided by using the proper term for these people. They are not "immigrants." They are illegal aliens.

Then, the author goes on to insult people who are anti-illegal alien by saying "The common notion that there are 'good' immigrants who enter the United States legally, pay their taxes and work hard to raise their families, and 'bad,' shiftless immigrants who enter illegally, take services and give nothing in return while depressing native wages is at best overly simplistic." Well, duh! Exactly who is it who holds this "common notion?" I don't and neither does anyone else I know who is anti-illegal alien. Maybe the author assumes that because such a belief is common among his circle of friends, it is a "common notion" in other circles?

"Up to 40 percent of the illegal population entered the country legally and overstayed their visas." By this statement, the author implies that these people are somehow different than other people who are in this country illegally. I guess their only crime is that of forgetfulness. His argument seems to be, "They just forgot to go back to their country of origin when their time was up so they're not really breaking the law." Uh, yeah, okay.

This article is just full of little amusing tidbits like this but I will just site one more that I found to be especially hilarious. The author sites Howard Chang, calling him an expert in immigration at the University of Pennsylvania. He quotes Mr. Chang thusly, "...the demand for labor does not remain fixed when immigrants enter the economy. Immigrant workers not only supply labor ... they also demand goods and services, and this demand will translate into greater demand for locally supplied labor." This, the author implies, means that the illegal aliens don't displace any American workers but actually create jobs. I do hope the author will forgive me when I laugh out loud at this one but it is just too much like the story about the snake that swallowed himself.

I could just go on and on but it is too much like shooting fish in a rain barrel. Come on AlterNet. Is this your best shot?

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Complex, Not Good or Bad
Posted by: Betsy L. Angert on Apr 11, 2006 7:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Joshua Holland . . .

I hugely appreciate your comprehensive study on the complex issue of immigration. I am grateful that someone else is consumed with the conflicts in theories. The dichotomy between the two types of immigrants is a fascinating one. I often wonder if it could be the classes or the masses; however, even that possibility is too simplistic. The masses benefit some businesses and homeowners more. The classes, well, people prefer their style.

I would welcome your thoughts on any of my immigration treatises. Please review these and share your thoughts. I welcome your comments.
IMMIGRATION. INTERTWINING SELF-INTERESTS AND IGNORING INTERDEPENDENCE ©
AMERICANS VIOLATE THE LAW AND CALL “THEM” ILLEGAL? ©
IMMIGRATION ISSUE . . . PROBLEM AND PLAN ©
IMMIGRATION ISSUES, “WHEN IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH?” ©

May you experience the best, trusting that you are!
Betsy L. Angert Be-Think

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No vacancy
Posted by: acerbas on Apr 11, 2006 8:02 PM   
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An asinine article because it focuses solely on the economic aspects of immigration. No mention of the fact that immigrants, particularly illegals, are the driving force behind population increase in this country, with devastatingly destructive consequences to the environment, especially in the face of dwindling soil, water, and energy supplies. If a person does not understand the term "carrying capacity" they are ill-equipped to understand the effects of overpopulation. But nature will provide a day of reckoning, and it will come sooner rather than later.

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» RE: No bubble Posted by: brad
» RE: No vacancy Posted by: liberalmedia
Let's See What Tomorrow Brings
Posted by: freeda on Apr 11, 2006 9:37 PM   
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In terms of the 'quality' journalism we have come to love and look forward to so dearly here at Alternet.

For me, I found out something that just sent more tha a few chills down my back and that is the date of June 6, 2006 (666) is looming and the Goddess only knows what the dominionist whackos & GWB may have planned for it. I seriously hope it comes & goes without a hitch. I always thought 9-11 was a sort of media nifty little date myself (can you imagine how say, 8-26 or 11-14 or any other of a number of dates might not have done so well in our collective consciousness as none other than our national emergency number 911?).

Symbolic mysticism was a favorite of the Nazi high camp and it may well be for our neocon nitwits too. I sincerely hope not.

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Left biggest myth makers
Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 11, 2006 11:58 PM   
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Unlike this story asserts, it is the left that spreads the worst lies and misinformation on immigration. This is because the left likes to hold on to various myths and illussions about immigration. The myths include a belief that immigration, no matter what form it takes, automatically generates jobs and opportunities (it does not - look at the evidence in Europe or North America), that illegal doesn't matter and hs no impact on society (it does - any mass defiance of the law does destroy respect for the law), and that all races and ethnicities seamlessly integrate upon arrival (this is one of the worst and most prenicious of the myths - anybody who lives in an urban area knows this isn't true).

The facts are that illegal immigration undermines salaries and standards in communities. Illegal immigration does not have to be accepted, and that border control can be enforced. There is nothing racist about desiring immigration controls - in fact, it is damaging to race relation to allow the illegal mass entry into the country from one group only (Mexicans).

The left has lost the plot and dropped the ball on this issue. The left is wide of the mark on where most people are, and also the left is telling a fable that does not match with the reality on the ground.

The left can hope legislaters defy public opinion and reality, but in the long run, inaction on immigration will just ramp up tensions on the streets and in communities. It will continue the precipitous decline into third world slums in our inner cities, something that will have a massive impact on long-term economic health of the country.

Third worldification of communities costs in many ways. Imeans already strapped public servics have to instead invest even more money to try and maintain standards, it means that every service needs to be duplicated, triplicated etc. to cater to an ever-morse diverse and disperate audience. That costs - no doubt about it.

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» RE: Left biggest myth makers Posted by: VisionQuest
» RE: Left biggest myth makers Posted by: kelly.nickell
» RE: Left biggest myth makers Posted by: liberalmedia
What Does The Census Do?
Posted by: dlf on Apr 12, 2006 5:15 AM   
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RE: Question for Josh
Posted by: joshua_holland@alternet.org on Apr 11, 2006 11:22 AM [Report this comment]

Legal residents are more likely to give information to census takers, more likely to be engaged in politics, etc.

You claim the census bureau to be junk data. Funny how we use it for almost all governmental and electoral functions.

Apparently Josh thinks so too!

Some interesting information regarding NGO's and the Census:
Congress does not intend that the prohibition should apply when beneficiaries receive benefits in the form of certificates, vouchers, or other forms of disbursement redeemable with nongovernmental entities. Where the character of the aid goes directly to the ultimate beneficiary in the form of a voucher or certificate, the beneficiary exercises personal choice as to where to use the voucher or certificate, and may or may not choose to redeem it at a religious provider which incorporates worship or instruction in its provision of services. Congress has recognized and allowed such use of vouchers and certificates in the Child Care and Development Block Grant of 1990 (42 U.S.C. 9858 et seq.)

Could this be why the Catholic Church and Christian Groups are so invested in "helping" illegal immigrants? And why these very groups are fighting so hard, to not be considered criminal for breaking the law, while receiving government big bucks?

(d) STATE AUTHORITY TO PROVIDE FOR ELIGIBILITY OF ILLEGAL ALIENS FOR STATE AND LOCAL PUBLIC BENEFITS- A State may provide that an alien who is not lawfully present in the United States is eligible for any State or local public benefit for which such alien would otherwise be ineligible under subsection (a) only through the enactment of a State law after the date of the enactment of this Act which affirmatively provides for such eligibility.

Could this be why NGOs like La Raza push so hard for illegal immigrants to fill out the census forms? Apparently if they did the government provides funding for services provided to them. This kind of mixed message on the part of the Fed is at the heart of the argument. For every law that makes illegal entry a crime, there is a provision that ignores the law. Perhaps it's time to replace your tired old representative. They created this maze, we need new representation to knock it down, and make our laws make sense

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» Attacking the messinger. Posted by: brad
» RE: What Does The Census Do? Posted by: johnk100
If you believe that article
Posted by: kathat on Apr 12, 2006 6:25 PM   
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I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
First:The most obvious is that no matter how many taxes lower paid workers pay, they get it all back and more at the end of the year as E.I.C.
Second: You can put all the statistics in the world on here, and it won't alter the fact that Americans are suffering and will jump all over anything they percieve as a threat.
The final insult is to go through the last years of this administration with the average Amercian being ignored by both parties and the press- yet when some illegals protest they take action. It's truly pathetic.

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1994 was a long time ago.
Posted by: YogiBear on Apr 12, 2006 9:07 PM   
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Josh, I just realized that the two studies you cited date back 10 to 15 years. I distinctly recall you telling me that data I posted from 2005 was out of date. So, c'mon.

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» RE: 1994 was a long time ago. Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: 1994 was a long time ago. Posted by: YogiBear
Two places the US is becoming
Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 12, 2006 11:07 PM   
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I travel widely for my work. It takes me not only to the biggest and brightest cities of the world; it also takes me to the most degrading slums they harbour. My travels have shown me that there are two places augering in the future of the US: Johannesburg, South Africa, and Rio, Brazil.

I choose Johannesburg (or Jozie as local call it) because it symbolises the happy marriage between modernity and racial and ethnic division. This city will dazzle you with its opulent suburbs and beaming ad boards, while depressing you with its growing slum settlements. Everyone in the city has bought into an egagerated form of US self-interest. They say 'you are free, so what more do you want free from your government?'.

This attitude leads to a way of life where the wealthy and advantaged dance arround the city, developing ever-more complex methods to avoid contact with others from different racial/ethnic/or class catagories. This dance is amusing to watch as an outsider, but it is deadly serious: nobody trusts each other because murder and rape are always just around the corner. It is a sad way to live.

Now fly to Brazil. Brazil's teaming ghettos have become no-go zones, where the state can't enter unless it is behaving like an invading army.

Drug gangs are the true enforcers. While the government is onstensibly a left-wing and reformest one, it can't control these areas. Kidnapping is out of control and murder rates are through the roof.

In both these places capitalism is very happy. Capitalism can live with these contradictions. But do Americans want their country to continue the slide into this? Already, a foreignor travelling around the US can see mini-Brazils and South Africas all over the place. It is already underway. It is now time to take a stand and stop the further slide into third world decay.

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» RE: Two places the US is becoming Posted by: liberalmedia
No more than"Replacement population" should still be the goal
Posted by: plantland on Apr 12, 2006 11:45 PM   
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Holland and others have pointed to social security- that there are fewer workers to pay in relative to the increasing size of the baby boom- as a reason to go out and get more people.
Massive immigration has "solved" the non problem of being at replacement population.
The earth is in crisis. More people, especially city dwellers in the US, accelerates more global warming.

We can tinker with social security- it is a construct.
We don't know how to turn off the global warming we've unleashed. We can just try to not contribute to a steep accelerating spike
More and more of the oil we use is just from spinning our wheels -NOT -stuck in traffic.

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Conversations With Racist Within the Pro-Illegal Movement
Posted by: dlf on Apr 13, 2006 8:24 AM   
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Until Blacks vote they have no pull.
Posted by: hmmm? on Apr 11, 2006 12:59 PM [Report this comment]

How much simpler can it be. Latinos have shown the impulse to collectively group together through community groups and churches and vote. Also upon watching the marches yesterday it was nice to see the large number of young MEN marching peacefully. Black people dont vote for the most part. Until they do, no one will represent them. Voting is a responsibilty. Black people need to earn their voice in government by the easist way their is: vote.

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RE: Until Blacks vote they have no pull.
Posted by: rg on Apr 11, 2006 4:26 PM [Report this comment]

Black men are busier than Latino men.


These are some voices of the pro-illegal lobby, and they call others racist. Do you think it might make one think better of themselves if their illegality were viewed not as criminal behavior, but as a great social movement? And do you think if you had the blessings of businesses, churches, and state that perhaps, just maybe you would think you had a right to be lawless? Now can anyone name a time in history that Blacks were ever lead to believe that lawlessness was a good thing, and would be supported by businesses, churches, and state? You have to love the sheer mindnumbing idiocy of some of these arguments.

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Whose Coalition Is It Anyway?
Posted by: dlf on Apr 13, 2006 9:23 PM   
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Hammond said 85 electricians from his union were hired by a small minority-owned company that employs African-American electricians to work at a naval site in New Orleans. Knight Enterprises, realizing that many of the workers were homeless and broke, offered $28 an hour, meals, and tents as part of a six-month contract.

But three weeks after the unionized electricians began working at the site, the company that had contracted Knight replaced the workers with Mexican electricians earning 50 percent less, Hammond said.

The African-American electricians lost their jobs shortly after the Bush administration temporarily suspended pay provisions under the Davis-Bacon Act. The law mandates that tradesmen and women employed on federal construction projects must be paid the prevailing local wage.


http://www.truthout.org/issues_06/041106LA.shtml

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The REAL illegality
Posted by: yellow on Apr 14, 2006 11:51 AM   
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Why don't the racist nativists, who bray like so many uneducated donkeys about the illegality of the presence of the 11 million undocumented Mexican Workers, consider the following. Since the Reagan Administration, the OSHA cutbacks have led to countless industrial accidents in America's slaughterhouses from deaths due to chlorine poisening from cleaning vats and tanks, to being crushed and dismembered by the unsafe equipement. Both White and Mexican workers have suffered this yet because the cleaning of slaughterhouses and the operating of the machinary is so dangerous more of the work has fallen to illegals. Very little indemnity is paid the families of killed or injured workers. Isn't it illegal to force people to work in unsafe conditions as the big packinghouse operations routinely do yet their is no word of objection from the racist rednecks who decry only the illegality of the hiring if many of these workers. I wonder if these obese rednecks think of the workers dismembered or crushed to death in a slaughterhouse as they gulp down their burgers? Many illegals annually pay with their lives to give obese redneck America their daily grub.

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» RE: The REAL illegality Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: The REAL illegality Posted by: yellow
Josh & CIS Agree: Immigration Hurts US Workers
Posted by: fairleft on Apr 14, 2006 3:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't understand Josh's problem with CIS.org, since he agrees with their analysis and conclusions (excerpted below), except for two 'ideological' differences: (1) Josh doesn't care all that as much about the US working class victims of immigration as he does about illegal immigrants, and (2) Josh has neoliberal faith that despite the wage-slashing effects of immigration, overall it really benefits the US economy. Heck, he even ties immigration into 'saving' social security (which real worlders know ain't broken, by the way). Josh will be the last one to notice the increasing third-world-ization of the bottom two-thirds of our economy.

Dropping Out
Immigrant Entry and Native Exit
From the Labor Market, 2000-2005
March 2006
By Steven A. Camarota

"...illegals are overwhelmingly employed in only a few occupations, done mostly by workers with only a high school degree or less. In these high-illegal occupations, native unemployment averages 10 percent — twice the national average. Moreover, the unemployment rate does not consider the growing percentage of less-educated workers who are not even looking for work and have left the labor market altogether. It would be an oversimplification to assume that each job taken by an immigrant is a job lost by a native. What is clear is that the last five years have seen a record level of immigration. At the same time, the unemployment rate of less-educated natives has remained high and the share that have left the labor force altogether has grown significantly. Wage growth has also generally been weak. Thus it is very hard to see any evidence of a labor shortage that could justify allowing illegal aliens to stay or to admit more as guestworkers. Rather, the available evidence suggests that immigration may be adversely impacting less-educated natives. The statistical findings of this study are consistent with other research that has looked at the pattern of immigrant job gains and native loses in recent years."

http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back206.html#author

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More From The Evil CIS.org
Posted by: fairleft on Apr 14, 2006 3:42 PM   
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To tel the truth, the following comment, from 2002, seems to be exactly the kind of progressive commentary that you would hope Josh Holland would agree with. In particular, blush, the last paragraph accords precisely with the kind of changes in the world of semi-skilled labor every progressive would want to see (and they also invoke nostalgic pangs for the days when the UFW dominated the farm labor market and spurred progress in technology and wages):

"I think that there is something troubling about a guest worker program, it really does have the potential for creating E-lot class of work. In a republic, in a democratic republic, you don't want that. So, I think that's a perfectly reasonable objection.

The other concerns I have are the same as Mr. Grayson's, that in the past guest worker programs always spurred more illegal immigration. They don't seem to solve the problem, and finally it always seems to result in permanent settlement.

And then the other point I would make is, economically bringing in unskilled people is very problematic to the United States in terms of they and their children's social mobility, in terms of public coffers, it also creates significant job competition for people at the bottom end of the labor market. So I would say that we should have less unskilled immigration, and simply buy the labor saving devices. In agriculture you might see dried on the vine agriculture. In construction, you might see more prefabricated materials used. In hotels or restaurants, what you might see is more going to buffet style, and takeout."

Comment by Steven A. Camarota, Director of Research at the Center for Immigration Studies; author of Immigration From Mexico: Assessing the Impact on the United States.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/meximmpanel.html

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Immigration debate very simple to understand
Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 15, 2006 5:14 AM   
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No country should put up with mass illegal migration, full stop. Immigration has been used as a tool to drive down wages, to the benefit of the wealthy. Mexicans are in the main part pawns in this debate; but they are also not the inheritors of some divine right to live in the US.

Look at other developd countries around the world. All of them have a standard of living close to the US's, or even higher. All also have managed migration schemes. All police their borders, all eject illegal migrants. In the UK, when they find them they put them on a plane out of the country. In Canada, the customs and immigration department do raids in the wee hours of the morning to catch them and swiftly deport them.

It is a big mistake on behalf of the US to allow this to go on as long as it has. Grab your balls and enforce the laws. And don't let a militant and aggressive rights movement sway you from enforcing the law.

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I Find This Interesting
Posted by: dlf on Apr 15, 2006 5:34 AM   
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A couple who crafted a hoax about having sextuplets, allegedly to collect thousands of dollars in generous gifts from neighbors and co-workers, are facing up to seven years in prison.here The charge is Fraud by deceit:

Another aspect of forgery and fraud offenses is that they corrupt the very foundation of public administration and/or government regulation. Think about the harm done for a moment -- society is really the victim -- all the people who had a legitimate claim to money, goods, or services will now have to go without, with less, or burden society more to go with the same in order to make up for the losses incurred from those who had no legitimate right to the money, goods, or services. In many ways, forgery and fraud offenses are the hybrid of all hybrid crimes. http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/293/293lect12.htm

Why are we only enforcing the law when the criminal is a citizen? Why doesn't this apply to all those people who are carrying FAKE ID, RECEIVING BENEFITS ILLEGALLY, AND THEIR ACCOMPLICES?

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» RE: I Find This Interesting Posted by: YogiBear
I take exception to your eugenics
Posted by: russellcole38 on Apr 15, 2006 9:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I could really care less who you were referring to. The point is the hyprocisy involved in calling other people bigots and then referring to those people as genically inferior. I think some self-examination is called for here. Due to your alleged genetic superiority, I would have suspected you to have realized of such irony for yourself.
Russell Cole

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Corrected Link For I Find This Interesting
Posted by: dlf on Apr 15, 2006 9:55 AM   
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http://www.larouchepac.com/

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Everybody's Doing It
Posted by: dlf on Apr 15, 2006 10:36 AM   
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Government Hires Illegals

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Illegal Immigration
Posted by: Sandra on Apr 15, 2006 1:44 PM   
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Everybody has an opinion about illegal immigration. I do not support illegal immigration. I am not a racist. I do care about people. I believe that this government needs to put enough resources into the budget to secure our borders. When the government has secured the borders, they need to look at the current immigration policy. I do not know what the government will do with the 12 to 20 million illegal immigrants who are said to be in this country. After the borders are secure, the government should work to determine the best and most humane way to deal with those who are already here illegally.

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The power behind the marchers---who or what is it?
Posted by: zooeyhall on Apr 15, 2006 11:32 PM   
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I am curious about something concerning these marches, and perhaps some reader can provide the answers.

Who is organizing these marches, providing the well-printed signs, obtaining the permits, etc.? And who is arranging for the media coverage that seems to be conveniently available to these guys? How can they get off of work to participate in this? I work at a job and am a white middle-class guy, and if I told my employer I wanted to take off for a protest march, I would be given short shrift!

Has there ever been any reporter or someone who has looked into this?

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In Response To Yellow
Posted by: dlf on Apr 16, 2006 6:28 AM   
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Why aren't Corporate violations of existing labor laws considered as much of a crime by vociferous anti-immigrants as being and working in the US illegally?

I think it is implied in the whole conversation that we have lost all control of the collective bargaining process as citizens, and therefore are unable to voice any opposition to our working conditions. I think it is the pro-illegal lobby that has tried to frame what the opposition is about. So if you have a problem with not hearing the voices of concern, maybe it's because you're so busy calling them racist, xenophobes, and ignorant to actually hear what is being said. I know for a fact that it has been posted by those against illegal immigration that the number of injuries in the most dangerous of jobs is ever increasing. We should check to see if you responded to that post, and if you addressed the issue then.

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JOSHUADUDD - INTERNET WHORE
Posted by: cerveny1 on Apr 16, 2006 3:17 PM   
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Funny thing about Alternet.org . . . There is this little click of self-righteous moderators who unilaterally determine what is right and wrong. Those in particular who don't agree with one JOSHUA LUDD and his brand of democracy may find themselves banished to Alternet's Gulag. I don't mind anymore. I have determined that a site frequented by an arrogant, gutless little prick like JOSHUA LUDD is hardly worth my time. I managed to break all of Alternet's fascist and seemingly self-contradictory rules of engagement but then again so did Joshua so I can only conclude that he is some kind of moderator or just a little bitch. Probably both. I'm sure that many of you who have debated with this self-important little prick understand. Having a left-leaning site like this is great and all but when assholes like JOSHUA LUDD run the show it ends up being a My Way or the Highway circle jerk eh JOSH? There can be no dissenting voice with JOSHUA LUDD. He silences you if he disagrees with you – sound familiar? All this discussion about the problems Americans are facing, censorship being one of them, and Fascistnet.org ends up being a microcosm of that very problem.

I challenge Joshua on every occasion because I disagree with him and his beliefs. He and I have both exchanged ad-hominem attacks – he seems to be a real tough guy though, given to Lee Marvin-esque outbursts but yet he whines to a friend and poof I’m gone or maybe he is the BIG PRICK who moderates the whole thing. In any event he actually represents much of what is wrong with this site and to a greater extent, what is wrong with America. We are discussing such topics as War, Racism, Fascism, Sexism, Capitalism, Socialism, etc. and yet are asked to keep the kid gloves on. Funny, one would think that people with enough conviction to come in here and discuss these topics would have thicker skin, and apparently most do except that little BITCH ASS TRICK JOSHUA LUDD. Keep him in mind when he attacks you personally and calls you a “reprehensible, murderous hypocrite” or this little pearl he threw out there – “Good for you. You still didn't serve. As my grandfather... a WW2 vet would say "close only counts in hand grenades and horseshoes". Either you served or you didn't, and you, you chickenhawk piece of shit, DID NOT.” Funny Josh is beyond reproach much like our own president and the man he was criticizing in that thread – Colin Powell. Who is going to censure or ban you Josh? What about that post wasn’t a personal attack and profane?

I think many of you would be interested in knowing that Little Joshie is running a pseudo-intellectual pyramid blogging scam – fucking hilarious Josh!!!! What is it called Josh – Blogging for Bucks?? LMAO!!!
No I understand why you have this incestuous little relationship with Alternet.org. You are giving each other the reach-around eh JOSHUADUDD? You’re nothing but a little blog twink are you? This is the real progressive thinker you all are dealing with. WHAT A FUCKING LOSER!! Here’s his pitch spoken like a good little Neo-con:

“Write a blog. Make Money.
There are millions of people who want to work from home but don't know how.There are millions of people who know how to write.There are millions of people who know how to write, but don't know how to make money with it.We KNOW how to make money with content people write. This site was designed to allow YOU to write content which WE will market and we will ALL make money.We'll make the money for you!
Then, we split the money,
50/50. Not only that but we'll also place your ads on the blogs of people you refer to writingUp.”
CHECK IT OUT HERE – PIMP YOURSELF OUT!!
http://www.writingup.com/write_a_blog_make_money

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Immigrants create jobs for Native Americans
Posted by: reddeer on Apr 16, 2006 7:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now, here's one to ponder. In the very small town of Hayward, WI there's a Christmas wreath making industry that now employs mostly Mexican workers. With local government support, due to the labor shortage in the north country, the company that produces them has even built a dormatory to house the 50 or so seasonal employee's that make their way up from Texas and Mexico beginning in about October. Tribal members from the Lac Courte Oreilles Band of the Lake Superior Ojibwa have traditionally harvested the fresh pine bows used in making the wreaths. With more wreaths being produced because of imported labor, there's more pine bows needed that in the end benefits not only Native Americans but non-Indians who harvest as well. I'm not sure where NAFTA fits into this, but I do know this seems to be working for everyone involved.

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Build a wall and then grant amnesty to anyone on our side.
Posted by: earthworm on Apr 20, 2006 6:20 AM   
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That might be the best answer. Rather than have an underclass of illegals who have to work for less, and maybe even more important can't vote.

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re
Posted by: loralorite on Jan 11, 2007 4:58 AM   
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re
Posted by: loralorite on Jan 11, 2007 4:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: morata on Jan 16, 2007 3:20 PM   
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Posted by: morata on Jan 16, 2007 3:20 PM   
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Posted by: morata on Jan 16, 2007 3:21 PM   
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Posted by: morata on Jan 16, 2007 3:21 PM   
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Posted by: morata on Jan 16, 2007 3:21 PM   
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Posted by: morata on Jan 16, 2007 3:21 PM   
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Posted by: morata on Jan 16, 2007 3:22 PM   
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