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Corporate Accountability and WorkPlace

When Will the Recovery Begin? Never

By Robert B. Reich, Robert Reich's Blog. Posted July 10, 2009.


Are green shoots emerging? Not until people feel more secure economically.
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The so-called "green shoots" of recovery are turning brown in the scorching summer sun. In fact, the whole debate about when and how a recovery will begin is wrongly framed. On one side are the V-shapers who look back at prior recessions and conclude that the faster an economy drops, the faster it gets back on track. And because this economy fell off a cliff late last fall, they expect it to roar to life early next year. Hence the V shape.

Unfortunately, V-shapers are looking back at the wrong recessions. Focus on those that started with the bursting of a giant speculative bubble and you see slow recoveries. The reason is asset values at bottom are so low that investor confidence returns only gradually.

That's where the more sober U-shapers come in. They predict a more gradual recovery, as investors slowly tiptoe back into the market.

Personally, I don't buy into either camp. In a recession this deep, recovery doesn't depend on investors. It depends on consumers who, after all, are 70 percent of the U.S. economy. And this time consumers got really whacked. Until consumers start spending again, you can forget any recovery, V or U shaped.

Problem is, consumers won't start spending until they have money in their pockets and feel reasonably secure. But they don't have the money, and it's hard to see where it will come from. They can't borrow. Their homes are worth a fraction of what they were before, so say goodbye to home equity loans and refinancings. One out of ten home owners is under water -- owing more on their homes than their homes are worth. Unemployment continues to rise, and number of hours at work continues to drop. Those who can are saving. Those who can't are hunkering down, as they must.

Eventually consumers will replace cars and appliances and other stuff that wears out, but a recovery can't be built on replacements. Don't expect businesses to invest much more without lots of consumers hankering after lots of new stuff. And don't rely on exports. The global economy is contracting.

My prediction, then? Not a V, not a U. But an X. This economy can't get back on track because the track we were on for years -- featuring flat or declining median wages, mounting consumer debt, and widening insecurity, not to mention increasing carbon in the atmosphere -- simply cannot be sustained.

The X marks a brand new track -- a new economy. What will it look like? Nobody knows. All we know is the current economy can't "recover" because it can't go back to where it was before the crash. So instead of asking when the recovery will start, we should be asking when and how the new economy will begin. More on this to come.


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See more stories tagged with: recession, economic crisis, recovery, green shoots

Robert Reich is professor of public policy at the Richard and Rhoda Goldman School of Public Policy at the University of California, Berkeley. He was secretary of labor in the Clinton administration.

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Agreed
Posted by: BlueTigress on Jul 10, 2009 9:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think some of the "green shoots" were killed off when the oil speculators went nuts after reading too many hopeful articles on how the economy was starting to recover.

To at least try and get the economy out of idle, the next stimulus program should take the shape of cash payments to American households to cover the basics like mortgage and utilities to free up other cash for consumer spending.

I know, this is flat-out socialism, but capitalism hasn't been doing us too many favors lately.

Maybe we should give socialism a shot. But then I may be biased because my father was a government employee for 33 years and I had a reasonably comfortable childhood and full medical insurance.

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» RE: Agreed Posted by: rimchamp77
» It's Just Business Posted by: johnwinthrop
» Agreed. Posted by: clresu
» Socialism NO, Fascism YES. Posted by: rafaeltoral
» RE: Agreed Posted by: grosspointblank1986
Finally, sanity and real wisdom...
Posted by: Farasien on Jul 10, 2009 9:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I love Dr. Reich- he's one of the only people telling the truth (by the way, Doc, watch out for the tarring and feathering coming from the political elites sure to follow you statement...).

Here's the problem, folks... The economy right now is a reflection of the out-of-work US citizen. The USA has been in the midst of scamming people like Madoff for about the last 5-10 years- ever since the deficit and national debt has begun to reach an asymptote. Essentially, this is what's happening... The government is dead BROKE. It has been, as any good Ponzi-schemer knows, moving money, or really, the PROMISE of money from one place to another in hopes that the creditors don't find out. What does someone who knows they are on the bottom do these days? He takes the maximum cash advances out of all of his credit cards, re-mortgages his house, taking out a HELOC for everything there is left of value in his house, takes everything out of his bank accounts and runs, sticking the creditors with 'assets' with negative value and no forwarding address. This is what the government is doing. We beg, borrow and threaten everyone who has any real money to lend it to us, promising anything we have to to get it, but there is no collateral left underneath it. We beg the Chinese to give us $, we spend the minimum we have to on things people will riot to get, pocket the rest and go back for more, threatening them with economic M.A.D. if they don't. The USA is having to make wilder and wilder promises to get the money (that can be seen in the ever-increasing rates in T-bills we will have to pay back 'someday') and underneath it, we've already mortgaged every square inch of land the nation has. The rich in the country are already pulling their money out of the markets and putting it into Euros or other currency, and the world bank is openly suggesting about using a type of bond they have as a world reserve.

In short, the USA is that guy who just took out the last of the remaining money in his house and credit cards. He's about to run for the hills, sticking all of us, the unfortunate and financially illiterate suckers, with the bill.

Get ready to bend over folks. When China and the other nations realize what has been happening and they dump the dollar (which is already starting or just about to happen, if China's recent statements are true) the USA will turn into real-life Mad Max overnight.

Are your pitchfork and torch ready? You're gonna need them, and soon.

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» Um, don't you mean Posted by: kegbot1
» RE: Um, don't you mean Posted by: assrocket
» If and when this occurs. Posted by: rafaeltoral
Crash & Collapse
Posted by: nihilozero on Jul 10, 2009 2:47 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought some of you might be interested in this blog article about the economy I wrote a few months back...
Crash & Collapse: This Is Worse Than A Depression

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Waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Posted by: weathered on Jul 11, 2009 2:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A stolen election in 2000, 9/11, Iraq/Afgn theft and a profound redistribution of wealth.

If Obama sought change we see Bob Riech in the Cabinet not geithner.

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» Seek a hybrid of talent Posted by: weathered
» RE: Seek a hybrid of talent Posted by: weathered
» RE: Powell! Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Powell! Posted by: weathered
change the thinking
Posted by: richholland on Jul 11, 2009 3:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
since OBAMA bailed out banks it is fair the banks help the people so that they donot lose their houses. In several european states there is now a statequarantee up to $ 350.000
This benefits the real estate market as well.


A quarantee that everybody has payable health insurance is a base for the capitalisme.

a base income wether you work, unemployed or sick is a base for the country and on the long run cheaper than the present system.

to call wisdom socialisme is bull shit.
To call oportunity to swindlle ämerican free trade"is stupid.

the mind of robber barons and vulture capitalists out of the ghosthouse of 1850 created the shit.
Awake it is 2009 now.
Good article, reread it.

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» RE: change the thinking Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: change the thinking Posted by: GatoPreto
» RE: change the thinking Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Lessons learned
Posted by: Perry Logan on Jul 11, 2009 3:25 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Note to progressives: if you ever get another shot at the big-time, vet your goddam candidate.

I cannot emphasize this too strongly. It would help to refrain from calling your fellow Democrats racists, which--believe it or not--was not the brilliant tactic you thought it was.

Also, get help for that misogyny.

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» RE: Lessons learned Posted by: LaurelAnn
» RE: Hey, WE don't get to 'vet' anyone Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Never? What a drama queen!
Posted by: RandPaul on Jul 11, 2009 3:55 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The economy will rebound; it always does. But it will rebound faster if we stop attacking it with anti-capitalist big-government lunacy.

-Stop bailing out loser companies.
Americans are free to succeed and free to fail. When you put a safety net under someone as they engage in reckless behavior, they become more reckless.

-Cut the income tax, the capital gains tax, and the corporate tax.
America has some of the highest corporate taxes in the world, and jobs continue to be outsourced to countries with lower taxes.

-Lower or eliminate the minimum wage.
Yes, I have worked for minimum wage. It sucks, but so what? Raising it just discourages small businesses from hiring more people. Why not raise it to a $1000/hour so we can all be millionaires by Christmas? Insanity!

-Forget about Cap-and-Tax.
All this treasonous bill will do is send more jobs to China.

-End the system of tying Health Care to employers, and deregulate health care.
One of the main reasons no one buys American cars anyone is because they cost several thousand more than they should, because of the health care costs of employers.

-Bust the Unions!
Speaking of Government Motors, they were killed by the United Auto Workers union. Unions ruin everything. Not only did they single-handedly destroy the American auto industry, but they're ruining our schools and bankrupting our largest state, my home California.

2010 can't come fast enough. If unemployment remains in double digits, which it will with Dear Leader Obama's policies, prepare thyself for the next Gingrich Revolution.

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» Hey isn't that the list... Posted by: jackpagan
» RE: I know who you are Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» How sad for you. Posted by: weathered
» Wrong century Posted by: Scalpel
» Hmmm... Posted by: Scalpel
» It's late 19th Century Arguments Posted by: FoonTheElder
» RE: I don't think we blew away Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Never? What a drama queen! Posted by: LaurelAnn
» RE: Never? What a drama queen! Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» No, not "slavery" Posted by: Biggie
» RE: Never? What a drama queen! Posted by: Tequila Kid
What will the New Economy be?
Posted by: Ottomatic on Jul 11, 2009 4:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It will be GREEN
Local and
Organic

The Decentralization of Corporate Power
From the Corpirates
To The People will fuel a
Economic and Social Renaissance
All 4-1 and 1-4 All!

WAR, Usury, GREED and Corruption brought US here and
And
A New set of Values will get US out:
Cooperation, Helpfulness, Generosity, Brotherly and Sisterly Love, Peacefulness, True Compassion and Respect.

A Local Community Based Economy!
Where you manufacture, grow food and harvest energy locally, instead of Globally.
Where the educational system teaches people how to think instead of follow.

The Media must be Freed from Corpirate Control
Unadulterated, unbiased information is the life blood of a Free Society.

Pollution must be STOPPED now!
Pouring carcinogenic poison into our Air and Water is WRONG!
The consequences and cost is Prohibitive for US and our Children

We all must stand together against the Corpirate Assault.

Health Care
Dental Care
Elderly Care
A Living Wage
Shelter
Clean Air and Water
Education and
Worthy Employment
Are Basic Human Rights.

Remember KATRINA!
We need Emergency Relief Centers in every Community based across this Country
Stocked with: Medical, Food, Cloths, Beds, Tools, a Seed bank, Energy, a Knowledge Database, Water and Water purification devices.
These centers must be located high and dry with access for all.
Everyone should start there own garden
Save the seeds.

Join The Micro-Democracy Revolution

Go Local
Go Green
Go Organic

Nobody said it was going to be easy
but,
It sure will be fun!

Survive and Proper

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» RE: Bless you! Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Bless you! Posted by: assrocket
» RE: blood is inevitable Posted by: DaBear
» RE: What will the New Economy be? Posted by: Officer009
» RE: What will the New Economy be? Posted by: Sister_Lauren
The Real Stimulus Package
Posted by: agape on Jul 11, 2009 4:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Tax the rich proportionately

2. Get the corporations/lobbyists out of government.

3. Enact real campaign reform--no corporate donors --only public funds!

4. Universal health care

5. Re-regulate the financial industry

6. Nationalize the banks and compel them to re-negotiate mortgages bssed on current value.

7. Create jobs to re-build the country's infrastructure--roads, streets, highways, dams, park systems, bridges--and---the public school system.

8. Replace our war-based economy with a peace-based economy--this is HUGE--

8. Make college affordable for ALL

9. Encourage investment in local food supplies--bring back the farmer!

10. Go to the streets--because this is what it's going to take--our system is broken--it does not respond to main street--only wall street.

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» RE: Guess what? Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Errata Posted by: LaurelAnn
» RE: Probably Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Probably Posted by: LaurelAnn
» RE: rrata Posted by: assrocket
» I don't know who you are, but I like you. Posted by: etvaugha@mtu.edu
» you have no idea Posted by: Spot
» RE: you have no idea Posted by: sheier
» Huh? Posted by: etvaugha@mtu.edu
Stimulus bill was loaded with Rethug Tax Cuts
Posted by: xvictor on Jul 11, 2009 4:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of the 787 billion dollars slated for the stimulus bill, 300 billion is for tax cuts. Why the Dems allowed tax cuts into the bill, which is a proven failure, is beyond me.

while Bush was pretending to be president, it was plainly demonstrated that many corporations paid next to nothing in taxes. While the Repugs in congress were in power, their mantra was tax cuts tax tax cuts tax cuts!!!

Despite over twelve years of generous tax cuts that, guess what?, brought in LESS revenue for the government and paved the way for perhaps the worst recesssion in memory.

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"-Bust the Unions!" (and other nonsense)
Posted by: xvictor on Jul 11, 2009 5:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Apparently some folks has been living in a cave for the several years of Rethug tax cuts or they're just parroting garbage from other ill-informed sources.

The labor costs for constructing a car is anywhere from 5 to 10%, this is according to GM's own accounting figures. So when a car cost 30,000 dollars to buy, 1500 dollars to 3,000 dollars of that amount is from union labor. Labor unions don't dictate the cost of the car. Management and Wall street dictates the cost of the car.

This explicit example can be applied anywhere. The degradation of school services can directly be attributed to the disastrous 1978 Proposition tax cut that forbade the state from reassessing home values to a higher amount. So when real estate values soared thru the roof in California, the state could not take advantage of the boom by reassessing home property values and bring in more revenue because the state was forbidden to do so.

All school budgets get their money from property taxes. So show me how the unions was responsible for the deterioation of school services. But I know you can't.Unions don't boss the schools. Elected and non-union people do the bossing around.

AS far as corporate and income taxes are concerned, compared to Europe, the U.S. actually has lower taxes. and Europe, with their higher tax rate, is still relatively doing well. THe people there are content with how their tax money is spent.

Furthermore, it was demonstrated that corporations paid next to nothing in taxes while Bush in power. The company CEOs got their money's worth from Bush.

But you can look this up. I know it may be hard for some to do so because they are so used to parroting.

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» Tax, tax, tax away the jobs... Posted by: RandPaul
the mother of all economic collisions is in the wings...
Posted by: ellie on Jul 11, 2009 5:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
first off, the stimulus programs have been a flop except for banks and wall street to toy with our heartstrings... msm is blasting away about an end to this recession based on what???

check out what is called "Davies J Curve"... when reality and expectations get really out of balance, people begin to revolt... if there is little hope, people revolt because they feel they have nothing to loose...

many folks are running out of unemployment insurance as job prospects now are dimmer then they were when they lost their qualifying jobs...

clear disconnect between 'wall street and main street'... the old game of if something is wrong, throw $$ at it (wombat and darth's quick fix for all catastrophes where the $$ only stays at the top)...

the mortgage fix never happened and never will without the ability to cram down mortgage values to current prices...

health care reform is now a joke... insurance companies are not going to let go of their strangle hold of life and death decisions... and charge us higher premiums for their largeness of refusal to pay...

newer news read today that will also have a direct effect on a 'recovery'...

the scammers are alive and kicking at the gullible with the cash for clunkers program at car dealerships... read the fine print that the average person can't afford or qualify for the loans on mostly $30k+ hybrid cars and their 'trade-ins' are worthless... go wealthy trying to get out from under their socially embarrassing hummers!!!

we have the upcoming flu season that seems to promise that nasty swine flu along with the regular flu... feds want to hurry up on a vaccine that may have so many dangers that the vaccine might be more dangerous then the bug itself... if this flu goes around, businesses, schools, etc. may have to close, and guess what, insurance companies will limit resources, (we all know what that means)... seems that the born after 1968 population is most at risk, kids and folks in their peak earning years of life...

news for gardeners... somehow with the help of wacky weather this summer, we are seeing a re-emergence of the potato and tomato fungus that began the potato famine... seems to be only hitting home gardeners who bought seedlings and organic farmers... hungry anyone???

hang onto your boxers folks, this ride will get more bumpy... we have more to worry about then a 'recovery'...

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» The really sad part? Posted by: Scalpel
» RE: Good advice from my mother in law Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: The really sad part? Posted by: assrocket
» RE: The really sad part? Posted by: ellie
» Wrong question Posted by: Scalpel
» RE: Wrong question... but... Posted by: Scalpel
Make a profit, don't be a
Posted by: weathered on Jul 11, 2009 5:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
f-kin pig - and that's exactly what we've got, swine dining at the trough of greed.

For some greed is a selfish choice, for others its in their DNA.

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Ayn Rand is dead
Posted by: Democritus on Jul 11, 2009 6:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So get over it.

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» FDR is dead, too. Posted by: RandPaul
» RE: FDR is dead, too. Posted by: Democritus
» RE: FDR is dead, too. Posted by: xvictor
» RE: FDR is dead, too. Posted by: Democritus
» RE: FDR is dead, too. Posted by: orwellturns
A lesson we should have learned
Posted by: Democritus on Jul 11, 2009 6:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Robert Reich, as always, is on the right path--but one should never say 'never'. FDR tried mightily to lift us from the Great Depression of the 30s, but it took WWII to get our economy moving again.

Does this means we need another war? No, it doesn't, because we have two wars going now and they're not helping a bit. The reason WWII got us out of the Depression was massive government spending on weapons of war. We still haven't got out of that mind set, because military spending takes a huge bite out of our budget, when that money can be used for projects that actually improve people's lives.

So the lesson is this: when consumers aren't spending, the government must do it--and do it massively, putting people back to work so they will get our economy back on track (albeit at a slower, more reasonable pace). Must government borrow in order to do this? Not necessarily, because the upper 2% of income earners have yet to pay their fair share from the Bush years of tax cuts for the rich.

Once the economy is stabilized, interest rates can be raised and government can cut back; but right now government spending and low interest rates seem to be the only antidote to what Dr. Reich has described.

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It's Exports, Stupid!
Posted by: Indiosmith on Jul 11, 2009 6:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The recovery will get going when those with money begin spending and those in debt begin paying it back. Those with money are foreigners (Asians and OPEC) who also happen to be our largest creditors. Those in debt are American consumers who won't be a force for economic growth until they deleverage down to reasonable levels.

So here's the recovery scenario: As foreigners face up to the fact that they can no longer rely on over-extended, frightened, increasingly unemployed Americans to drive their economies, they will repatriate some of their dollar holdings to stimulate investment and consumption in their domestic economies. That will drive the dollar down relative to creditor currencies (the yen is already soaring, the yuan will rise when China so decides), making U.S. exports more competitive, imports more expensive. The trade deficit, already narrowing sharply, will swing to surplus as foreigners buy bargain-priced American goods and services. (Yes, we have lots to sell. The U.S. and Germany are the world's largest exporters. And, yes, exports are only 12% of GDP, but 20% growth of a 12% sector adds 2.4% to GDP growth.)Trade surpluses will provide the means of repaying our foreign debt.

The U.S. foreign debt will be further reduced by foreigners converting their dollar-denominated debt to dollar-denominated assets (stocks, real estate) at bargain prices.

In one fell swoop, the devalued dollar will re-invigorate the American economy through increased exports (offsetting the negative effects of a flight from the dollar) and provide the wherewithal to pay down our foreign debt, restoring the U.S. economy to sustainable growth.

What Washington must do is let the market mechanism do its work -- i.e. don't resort to jingoistic "strong dollar" and protectionist policies or xenophobic restrictions on foreign purchases of U.S. assets.

For further discussion see http://cassandra-chronicles.blogspot.com

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The American chestnut
Posted by: willymack on Jul 11, 2009 6:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Once upon a time, the American chestnut tree grew extensively throughout the eastern US. It was as common as oak and maple trees.
As with so many other things "human activities" worked to destroy it by allowing a fungus to invade its domain-one for which it had no defense.
Now ,all that is left are stumps. The stumps aren't dead, merely dormant, and every once and a while they'll send forth shoots, only to have them killed off by the fungus. I've read that scientiste are working on introducing the genes from European chestnut trees to revive the American one, but, so far, no success. There's actually a thriving American chestnut tree in Vancouver, Wa. It's about eighty feet high, and extraordinarily beautiful.
The point here is that NO economic fix will work as long as the fungus of greedy bastards is is not eradicated or the body politic is not immunized against their predations.

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» Slight correction... Posted by: Scalpel
» RE: The American chestnut Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: The American chestnut Posted by: willymack
» Good analogy Posted by: GatoPreto
Pessimism is Realism
Posted by: johnwinthrop on Jul 11, 2009 7:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought I disagreed with Dr. Reich when he mentioned consumers as the source of recovery. His always practical side took over however and he pointed out that where will consumers have resources when the speculative bubble has driven us all down to the depths of hell.

I would suggest, without any certainty, that the long range outcome, barring major wars or Chinese dumping of our dollars, is a total restructuring of work and what it is to be "wealthy" or prosperous. More farmers. Less suburbanization with its billions wasted on fuel and activities that could be done in cities. Overpopulation. Spending trillions on nonsense, particularly electronic gadgets and substitutes for simple exercise. America wastes money. It needs to go on a good old fashioned conservative diet(in terms of use of resources) and Puritan(simplicity and limited govt) values.

Reich is right. We can't go back. You can't always get what you want (Jagger). Nor can we be the buttboy of the world anymore for "free trade" (let's make our own). Read the last issue of Counterpunch on how the US media scuttled the US car industry.

Immigration at this point must be stopped, legal and illegal. It makes no sense to flood the market with workers from abroad when our own workers will have fewer,not more jobs for a long time to come. (sometimes immigration is good, sometimes bad. right now, we don't need or want it.).

We can't afford much. Let's stop the crap about how we're the "richest" nation in the world so we can afford blah blah blah. We're not so rich. Get used to coal; it'a all we can afford, Fat Al.

Indeed, we are broke, and if you're religious, pray China doesn't pull the plug anytime soon, or starvation is here.

And don't expect the Chinese to have a "Save the Children" or an AIDS program for us. Unlike Americans, the Chinese have a normal reaction to people of other ethnic groups: Screw You!

Back to feudalism baby.

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» RE: Pessimism is Realism Posted by: superfeduphoosier
» RE: Pessimism is Realism Posted by: cplot
Not a V, U, or X
Posted by: Saidas on Jul 11, 2009 7:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What we are far more like to experience is a capital L with an extended bottom and a forward slash connected.

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Errata
Posted by: LaurelAnn on Jul 11, 2009 7:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That would be, of course, What's mine is mine, what's yours is mine.

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spot on
Posted by: awilson5280 on Jul 11, 2009 8:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is exactly right about the fundamental problems with the economy. The most important concept from this article is sustainability. In 2003, I read an article that said home prices in Denver (where I live) were rising at five times the rate of income. Few people questioned it then, but at a gut level (and knowing much less then that I do now) I felt that such a structure was unsustainable.

I still think that many "assets" are overpriced and/or overdeveloped. When the stock market gets to about 4000 or 5000, the number of automakers and airlines contracts by a few more, and housing prices drop by another third, I think that we'll be much closer to a sustainable economy. Unfortunately, this is going to result in massive upheaval for people who lose their jobs and have to retrain out of declining industries, and it will be nearly as bad for the survivors within these industries who have to endure continual stress, insecurity, and wage/hour cuts.

We do need a new economy, but what we really need is better economic planning - OMG socialism - in order to foresee trends (case in point the current bankruptcy of the post office due to e-commerce), deflate asset bubbles, and respond to shocks. For all you militiamen hiding in the hills, yes we are heading towards a "New World Order," not necessarily because we're excited about doing so, but rather because it is either do so or die.

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Recession, Depression, Green Shoots?
Posted by: rjs on Jul 11, 2009 9:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would suppose the worst of it all is that the Gubmit wants people to believe that they are seeing a "turn around", exciting trends that will lead the economy out of it's current state.

Again and again what the people view, the Gubmit never seems to witness.

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» Pogo? Posted by: johnwinthrop
ABOUT THE LITTLE GREEN SHOOTS
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 11, 2009 9:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's been WPA time for a long time now. Nothing works better than people enthusistically building or re-building their own country. Pride sounds condescending, but it's not. It would have worked in New Orleans and it can work for the rest of the country. Of course, properly done, it eliminates the middle man. The fruits of their labor goes to the people, not banks. I think I just explained why nobody mentions it. ANNA

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Take your money out of the bank
Posted by: grindermonkey on Jul 11, 2009 10:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Take your money AWAY from the banks. Put it in a local credit union. Form your own Savings and Loan; form your own credit union. It's safer in a mattress than in Wall Street banks.

Money belongs to the people of the United States; banking is a privilege not a freedom to squander the cumulative wealth of the people. When you rethink money you dissolve the banks. Economics is the study of money in motion, money that is working not static piles of it rotting in some vault.

The banks are holding the wealth of this nation hostage; don't let them detain what remains. Wall Street has imprisoned the nation's wealth; take it back.

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» That's recovery you can believe in.. Posted by: grindermonkey
It's INTENTIONAL
Posted by: billwald on Jul 11, 2009 10:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The plan is to break the unions and destroy the middle class. Our invisible owners own both major political parties and the elected officials.

Our large middle class was produced by freak post WW2 economic and social conditions. Our owners hate it and will no longer tolerate it.

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» RE: It's INTENTIONAL Posted by: sunlakedude
What Economy?
Posted by: sunlakedude on Jul 11, 2009 10:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course our "economy" driven as it was by services, house-building and furnishing, accessorizing and financing houses isn't a firm foundation to begin with. Since we make so little of value in the U.S. anymore it reminds me of the story of the little village whose residents made a living by taking in each other's laundry.
We cannot expect a recovery until we stop thinking that we can gain prosperity by building larger houses in ever more remote locations. These poorly built houses will not be accessible in the future since there isn't going to be near enough fuel to propel the cars and SUVs that the residents will need to commute back and forth to their non-existent jobs.
A complete makeover of the U.S. is needed including building public transit, walkable neighborhoods, and growing and processing foods locally. Until we wake up to this reality "recovery" will elude us.

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Capitalism is filled with plenty of double standards.
Posted by: Benn_Miller on Jul 11, 2009 12:34 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Blue collared workers get punished for the same actions that top white collared leaders get rewarded for. I've heard arguments that bailing out Wall Street is not capitalism. Actually, it is because the double standards are consistent. In capitalism, profits matter more than anything else. Therefore, bailing out will be reserved for only those who have a history of making the biggest profits. This is the kind of training most elitist politicians grew up with and since they feel rewarded for thinking that way and are often rewarded for it, they will do anything to keep this going regardless of the rising casualties among the working class. It's either get rich or get out. It's as if God is money or something.

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SAd
Posted by: AAZippo1 on Jul 11, 2009 2:34 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems all our idiot Government cares about are the rich corporations and bankis, the ones who need it less. Once again, Main Street America gets kicked in the nuts!

RT
Is your ISP watching?

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» Piracy when it counts. Posted by: GuitarBill
SAd
Posted by: AAZippo1 on Jul 11, 2009 2:34 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems all our idiot Government cares about are the rich corporations and bankis, the ones who need it less. Once again, Main Street America gets kicked in the nuts!

RT
Is your ISP watching?

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Well, it can't go back to where it used to be...
Posted by: donl51 on Jul 11, 2009 3:03 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
because many of our best jobs,white or blue collar have been outsourced to India,add to this the number of companies in this country sponsoring foreign work people to do the job at a lower cost...essentially we sold ourselves out to the lower bidder or we just got rediculously greedy and wanted more than the actual job was worth,and yeah,Unions are to blame as well....perhaps we should take some lessons from the EU about the proper way a union should be run!!...as well as our corporations...It's called a combination of mixing socialism w/capitalism....sorry that here in America the very word Socialism conjures up the horrors of the Dictatorial Communist states...is plain ignorance on our part and will no doupt push us back to the darkages....what a horrid thought, a 3rd world country w/thousands of nuclear weapons...the only thing that can come out of this ....a police state and slaves....

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Seven Dirty Words & Phrases
Posted by: Spyder on Jul 11, 2009 3:04 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In honor of George Carlin, allow me to offer a new list of words and phrases at the mention of which the cable news viewers should immediately throw a brick at the talking head whenever these secret messages are said.

1. Entitlements - This word always refers to something that deserving, ordinary citizens receive that Wall Street doesn't want to pay.

2. Socialism - This means that an absurd level of income inequality is somehow better for the nation.

3. Tax Cuts - Back when everybody was happy with Eisenhower in The White House, the highest tax rate on the rich was 91%. Now these corporate greed-mongerers are complaining about rates lower than 40%.

4. Write-downs - This is the only way to halt the crushing housing bubble crash and get the economy moving again, but the bankers don't like it because it would cost them money.

5. Free Trade - It never has been free, except to the corporations. Maybe they would enjoy losing their value in the job market?

6. Corporate buyouts - As long as we allow fewer and larger corporations, too big to fail becomes an accepted policy.

7. Job - This has become the ultimate dirty word in America, especially when it refers to a stable, comfortable job paying decent wages.

2010: Timeline for a Psychotic Nation

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Green shoots ?
Posted by: sirios on Jul 11, 2009 3:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
New growth doesn't emerge out of a dead plant.

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» RE: Green shoots ? Posted by: Benn_Miller
A REAL solution
Posted by: lefty010 on Jul 11, 2009 8:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How about this: LET’S ABOLISH MONEY. Yes, let’s abolish money which is a totally imaginary concept that is responsible for nearly every form of misery on the planet. Instead let's have a RESOURCE-BASED ECONOMY. It’s a really simple idea as most good ideas are. Yes I know simple idea-hard to implement. The truth is that energy is abundant on this planet and not one person should ever have to die from starvation or lack of any other necessity. Money is the cause of all the lack in the world.

Oh I know there are people out there now whose heads are spinning all the way around and they are shitting cute little kittens at the idea, but people, a monetary economic system is killing us. It is totally unsustainable. We must give up this imaginary idea and learn how to live on our planet. Our very existence depends on it and that’s if it’s not too late.

For more information on what a resource-based economy might look like visit Zeitgeist.com.

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» RE: A REAL solution Posted by: Rusty Shackleford
» RE: A REAL solution Posted by: lefty010
another stimulus
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford on Jul 11, 2009 9:15 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've seen countless articles (posted by average Joes of course, NEVER would this question be raised in mainstream media) about having another stimulus bill where every citizen over the age of 18 (and preferably under the $150k/year bracket) would receive a government check of either $50k or $100k or something like that.

Here's the plan...give or take...

Take out everyone under the age of 18.
Take out repeat offenders.
Take out all individuals/families who earn over say $150,000 a year.

Give all the rest of us $100,000 each.
Oh, the things we could accomplish. Average people could invest in new items, pay off debts, buy homes, or just buy new things, i.e. all things to stimulate the economy.
You could attach some green strings to it as well, saying that at least a portion of it has to go towards something green...
sigh, the possibilities.

Of course, this will never happen. Why? Because Obama might be generous with our money, but he certainly wouldn't be generous enough to GIVE IT BACK to us. Grrr....

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» RE: another stimulus Posted by: grosspointblank1986
» RE: another stimulus Posted by: raiders757
Lost Opportunity
Posted by: Tom Degan on Jul 12, 2009 4:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama blew it by allowing the pols to write the Stimulus bill and by being too timid with regard to the amount. The current economic crisis bemands boldness and our president obviously wasn't up to the task. Pity.

The Implosion Continues

Tom Degan

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» RE: Lost Opportunity Posted by: Centavo
» RE: Lost Opportunity Posted by: Tom Degan
Median Income Decline
Posted by: itsthemedication on Jul 12, 2009 5:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our post WWII economy was based on a manufacturing monopoly. We, the United States, were the only heavily industrialized country untouched by the ravages of war. Corporations spit out so-so goods that were gobbled up by the world because there was no alternative. People with little education were able to get very good paying jobs in factories, although the factories were fairly nasty places to work. The result was a huge new middle class that also desired the goods that the American factories were producing. That era is over. NAFTA and other trade agreements with no wage protection clauses are accelerating its end. Free world trade according to the text books, pulls foreign markets up to our level, but in reality we meet in a middle area where we have been pulled down and they have been slightly pulled upward. There will be no short term recovery, we are dropping off a cliff. I feel sorry for the next generation. It's tough going backwards. I can only hope for a truly populist government, but the Brits abused their people for centuries and never suffered much backlash.

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The recovery will begin only when we get rid of BIG GOVERNMENT first !
Posted by: superfeduphoosier on Jul 12, 2009 6:54 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The more big government we have doling out taxpayer funded handouts to the corporate welfare queens in addition to keeping the unemployed less interested in finding a job, the more our country's economy will stay DEAD DEAD DEAD ! It is time to stop the outsourcing, make small businesses tax free, abolish the capital gains tax, and stop bailing out Wall Street ! VIVA LIBERTARIANS !!

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I also propose getting rid of the national income tax and replacing it with a national sales tax !
Posted by: superfeduphoosier on Jul 12, 2009 6:57 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Consumers don't have to be the only people driving the economy. In fact, the income tax is actually unconstitutional but BIG GOVERNMENT just won't listen and hence needs to be abolished !

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Govrnment spending...
Posted by: reg373 on Jul 12, 2009 9:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
created many jobs in the Great Depression, Hoover Dam for example. Some paint that as socialism, others as a wise public investment -- found a cool site; Balkingpoints ; incredible satellite view of earth

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Agreed
Posted by: kib on Jul 12, 2009 3:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have to say your right. I just wish someone would figure it out soon!!
But I'd call it the O shape. Or the bubble factor. Have you ever notice when your washing your dishes at first you have a lot of big bubbles. Then after a while there is a lot of little bubbles. Or in our case the U.S. bubbles have burst. Now we are left with a bunch of little bubbles which will hopefully work together(friction) greating bigger bubbles(O shape). Lot of people are laid off and starting up new business. My hope is these new business will begin to network creating the new economy.
Go Green

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Some Choice Words for "The Select Few"by: Bill Moyers and Michael Winship
Posted by: cori on Jul 12, 2009 6:00 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some Choice Words for "The Select Few"
Sunday 12 July 2009
by: Bill Moyers and Michael Winship,
If you want to know what really matters in Washington, don't go to Capitol Hill for one of those hearings, or pay attention to those staged White House "town meetings." They're just for show. What really happens - the serious business of Washington - happens in the shadows, out of sight, off the record. Only occasionally - and usually only because someone high up stumbles - do we get a glimpse of just how pervasive the corruption has become.
Case in point: Katharine Weymouth, the publisher of The Washington Post - one of the most powerful people in DC - invited top officials from the White House, the Cabinet and Congress to her home for an intimate, off-the-record dinner to discuss health care reform with some of her reporters and editors covering the story.
But CEOs and lobbyists from the health care industry were invited, too, provided they forked over $25,000 a head - or up to a quarter of a million if they want to sponsor a whole series of these cozy get-togethers. And what is the inducement offered? Nothing less, the invitation read, than "an exclusive opportunity to participate in the health-care reform debate among the select few who will get it done."
The invitation reminds the CEO's and lobbyists that they will be buying access to "those powerful few in business and policy making who are forwarding, legislating and reporting on the issues …
"Spirited? Yes. Confrontational? No." The invitation promises this private, intimate and off-the-record dinner is an extension "of The Washington Post brand of journalistic inquiry into the issues, a unique opportunity for stakeholders to hear and be heard."
Let that sink in. In this case, the "stakeholders" in health care reform do not include the rabble - the folks across the country who actually need quality health care but can't afford it. If any of them showed up at the kitchen door on the night of this little soiree, the bouncer would drop kick them beyond the Beltway.
No, before you can cross the threshold to reach "the select few who will actually get it done," you must first cross the palm of some outstretched hand. The Washington Post dinner was canceled after a copy of the invite was leaked to the web site Politico.com, by a health care lobbyist, of all people. The paper said it was a misunderstanding - the document was a draft that had been mailed out prematurely by its marketing department. There's noblesse oblige for you - blame it on the hired help.
In any case, it was enough to give us a glimpse into how things really work in Washington - a clear insight into why there is such a great disconnect between democracy and government today, between Washington and the rest of the country.
According to one poll after another, a majority of Americans not only want a public option in health care, they also think that growing inequality is bad for the country, that corporations have too much power over policy, that money in politics is the root of all evil, that working families and poor communities need and deserve public support if the market system fails to generate shared prosperity.
But, when the insiders in Washington have finished tearing worthy intentions apart and devouring flesh from bone, none of these reforms happen. "Oh," they say, "it's all about compromise. All in the nature of the give-and-take-negotiating of a representative democracy."

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Some Choice Words for "The Select Few"by: Bill Moyers and Michael Winship,
Posted by: cori on Jul 12, 2009 6:08 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to one poll after another, a majority of Americans not only want a public option in health care, they also think that growing inequality is bad for the country, that corporations have too much power over policy, that money in politics is the root of all evil, that working families and poor communities need and deserve public support if the market system fails to generate shared prosperity.
But, when the insiders in Washington have finished tearing worthy intentions apart and devouring flesh from bone, none of these reforms happen. "Oh," they say, "it's all about compromise. All in the nature of the give-and-take-negotiating of a representative democracy."
That, people, is bull - the basic nutrient of Washington's high and mighty.
It's not about compromise. It's not about what the public wants. It's about money - the golden ticket to "the select few who actually get it done."
When Congress passed the Helping Families Save Their Homes Act, "the select few" made sure it no longer contained the cramdown provision that would have allowed judges to readjust mortgages. The one provision that would have helped homeowners the most was removed in favor of an industry that pours hundreds of millions into political campaigns.
So, too, with a bill designed to protect us from terrorist attacks on chemical plants. With "the select few" dictating marching orders, hundreds of factories are being exempted from measures that would make them spend money to prevent the release of toxic clouds that could kill hundreds of thousands.
Everyone knows the credit ratings agencies were co-conspirators with Wall Street in the shameful wilding that brought on the financial meltdown. But when the Obama administration came up with new reforms to prevent another crisis, the credit ratings agencies were given a pass. They'd been excused by "the select few who actually get it done."
And by the time an energy bill emerged from the House of Representatives the other day, "the select few who actually get it done" had given away billions of dollars worth of emission permits and offsets. As The New York Times reported, while the legislation worked its way to the House floor, "It grew fat with compromises, carve-outs, concessions and out-and-out gifts," expanding from 648 pages to 1,400 as it spread its largesse among big oil and gas, utility companies and agribusiness.
This week, the public interest groups Common Cause and the Center for Responsive Politics reported that, "According to lobby disclosure reports, 34 energy companies registered in the first quarter of 2009 to lobby Congress around the American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009. This group of companies spent a total of $23.7 million - or $260,000 a day - lobbying members of Congress in January, February and March.
"Many of these same companies also made large contributions to the members of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, which has jurisdiction over the legislation and held a hearing this week on the proposed 'cap and trade' system energy companies are fighting. Data shows oil and gas companies, mining companies and electric utilities combined have given more than $2 million just to the 19 members of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee since 2007, the start of the last full election cycle."

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last part of this shocking article Some Choice Words for "The Select Few"
Posted by: cori on Jul 12, 2009 6:10 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's happening to health care as well. Even the pro-business magazine The Economist says America has the worst system in the developed world, controlled by executives who are not held to account and investors whose primary goal is raising share price and increasing profit - while wasting $450 billion dollars in redundant administrative costs and leaving nearly 50 million uninsured.
Enter "the select few who actually get it done." Three out of four of the big health care firms lobbying on Capitol Hill have former members of Congress or government staff members on the payroll - more than 350 of them - and they're all fighting hard to prevent a public option, at a rate in excess of $1.4 million a day.
Health care policy has become insider heaven. Even Nancy-Ann DeParle, the White House health reform director, served on the boards of several major health care corporations.
President Obama has pushed hard for a public option but many fear he's wavering, and just this week his chief of staff Rahm Emanuel - the insider di tutti insiders - indicated that a public plan just might be negotiable, ready for reengineering, no doubt, by "the select few who actually get it done."
That's how it works. And it works that way because we let it. The game goes on and the insiders keep dealing themselves winning hands. Nothing will change - nothing - until the moneylenders are tossed out of the temple, the ATM's are wrested from the marble halls, and we tear down the sign they've placed on government - the one that reads, "For Sale."

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email this letter to Obama at whitehouse.gov
Posted by: cori on Jul 12, 2009 10:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. President:

Momentum for universal health care is slowing dramatically on Capitol Hill. Moderates are worried, Republicans are digging in, and the medical-industrial complex is firing up its lobbying and propaganda machine.

The worst news came days ago when the Congressional Budget Office weighed in with awful projections about how much the leading healthcare plans would cost and how many Americans would still be left out in the cold. Yet these projections didn't include the savings that a public option would generate by negotiating lower drug prices, doctor fees, and hospital costs, and forcing private insurers to be more competitive. Projecting the future costs of universal health care without including the public option is like predicting the number of people who will get sunburns this summer if nobody is allowed to buy sun lotion. Of course the costs of universal health care will be huge if the most important way of controlling them is left out of the calculation.

If you want to save universal health care, you must do several things, and soon:

1. Go to the nation. You must build public support by forcefully making the case for universal health care everywhere around the country. The latest Wall Street Journal/NBC poll shows that three out of four Americans want universal health care. But the vast majority don't know what's happening on the Hill, don't know how much money the medical-industrial lobbies are spending to defeat it, and have no idea how much demagoguery they're about to be exposed to. You must tell them. Take on those vested interests directly. Name names. You must fight them.

2. Lyndon Johnson defeated the American Medical Association and the rest of the medical-industrial complex. He got Medicare and Medicaid enacted despite their cries of "socialized medicine" because he knocked heads on the Hill. He told Congress exactly what he wanted, cajoled and threatened those who resisted, and counted noses every hour until he had the votes he needed. When you're not on the road, you need to be twisting congressional arms and drawing a line in the sand. Be tough.

3. Forget the Republicans. Forget bipartisanship. Universal health care can pass with 51 votes. You can get 51 votes if you give up on trying to persuade a handful of Republicans to cross over. Eight year ago George W. Bush passed his huge tax cut, mostly for the wealthy, by wrapping it in an all-or-nothing reconciliation measure and daring Democrats to vote against it. Do the same with health care.

4. Insist on a real public option. It's the lynchpin of universal health care. Don't accept Kent Conrad's ersatz public option masquerading as a "healthcare cooperative." Cooperatives won't have the authority, scale, or leverage to negotiate low prices and keep private insurers honest.

5. Demand that taxes be raised on the wealthy to ensure that all Americans get affordable health care. At the rate healthcare costs are rising, not even a real public option will hold down costs enough to make health care affordable to most American families in years to come. So you'll need to tax the wealthy. Don't back down on your original proposal to limit their deductions. & support a cap on how much employee-provided health care can be provided tax free. (Yes, you opposed this during your campaign. But you have no choice but to reverse yourself on this.) These are the only two big pots of money.

6. Put everything else on hold. As important as they are, your other agenda items -- financial reform, home mortgage mitigation, cap-and-trade legislation -- pale in significance relative to universal health care. By pushing everything at once, you take the public's mind off the biggest goal, diffuse your energies, blur your public message, & fuel the demagogues who say you're trying to take over the private sector.

You must win this.

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The "Green Capitalism" Miracle will Begin ...
Posted by: halg on Jul 12, 2009 11:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... about the same time a dog becomes the Pope.

There is no such thing as Green Capitalism, so stop holding your breaths. There is nothing "green" about solar panels built by workers with no organizing rights or a living wage.

Oh, sorry. Were you under the impression that "Green" meant environmentalism only? Check this out: gp.org (We know something about this topic, OK?)

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Mr. Reich's comments are fluff
Posted by: Sgellero on Jul 13, 2009 9:13 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A classic academic apparatchik.

Never a word about REAL constitutional money. Remember when the dollar was 'as good as gold'? Of course you don't...most here are too young to remember when the Dollar was backed by GOLD.......and prices were quite stable for a hundred years.

Of course Mr. Reich never addresses this basic fact....he's part of the same system the Democrats & Republicans support. Fiat money created by a Banking Cartel. Never talked about, and if you do, like Ron Paul, you are marginalized by BOTH parties and the press.

By reading the posts here, it's easy to see what has happened to the dumbed down American people.

Gimmee gimmee gimmee this and that....free free free.

But what wealth do the people who post here create? Do you all work in manufacturing, and actually create wealth? I doubt it. Nope, you let outsiders create the wealth ( products ) for you, and since you [in the aggregate ] really don't produce much to trade for it, basically con them ( China et al ) into buying 'bonds' ( aka debt ) from the Treasury so the Fed can print the dollars you get paid to buy what the real producers of the world make.

Baically no different than Bernie Madoff's ponzi scheme, except we have a fancy name for it.....'fractional reserve banking' a la the Federal Reserve.
And after the nihilists and Obamabots really de-industrialize the country through taxes on energy and manufacturing, how wil you get the wealth to get those fancy expensive organic things at Whole Foods??
Nope.......you're taxing yourself with monetary debt ( aka inflation ) and de-industrialization.
And in the end, the very people you seem to have such enmity for will really be the only ones who can afford the Whole Foods agenda.

Debt cannot create wealth in the long term. So why doesn't Mr. Reich say it? Is it some sort of economic apostasy? Will his head be chopped off by the true believers?

Has anyone noticed that Mr. Geitner ( and Pres. Obama ) backpedalled yesterday on a second 'stimulus' ( aka debt ) package. Wonder why?

Perhaps if the 'bots' got their dumbed down brains out of the Pepsi-cum-political logo pamphlets and stopped blindly following 'leaders' who take their marching orders from the very same establishment the posters here despise, and rid their befuddled brains of the class warfare agenda, there could be a plan to reverse the decline of the USA.

But I won't hold my breath.

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Find out where the money went - that's where the recovery will be.
Posted by: MikeyBee on Jul 15, 2009 1:41 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So where did all the money go? It must be somewhere. It wasn't lost in a fire. Someone has it. Has it left the country? Find out where it went, that's where you'll find either a couple of really rich, greedy, so and so's or an economy that's booming. My guess is it's either in China or Saudi Arabia. How are they doing?

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Maybe i should make a considerration of live in the other tip of the globe.
Posted by: itouch backup on Jul 15, 2009 8:49 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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