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Corporate Accountability and WorkPlace

Krugman: Who Will Stop the Economic Pain?

By Paul Krugman, The New York Times. Posted February 21, 2009.


We're in the midst of a crisis that bears an eerie resemblance to the onset of the Depression. How and when will it all end?
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Earlier this week, the Federal Reserve released the minutes of the most recent meeting of its open market committee — the group that sets interest rates. Most press reports focused either on the Fed’s downgrade of the near-term outlook or on its adoption of a long-run 2 percent inflation target.

But my eye was caught by the following chilling passage (yes, things are so bad that the summarized musings of central bankers can keep you up at night): “All participants anticipated that unemployment would remain substantially above its longer-run sustainable rate at the end of 2011, even absent further economic shocks; a few indicated that more than five to six years would be needed for the economy to converge to a longer-run path characterized by sustainable rates of output growth and unemployment and by an appropriate rate of inflation.”

So people at the Fed are troubled by the same question I’ve been obsessing on lately: What’s supposed to end this slump? No doubt this, too, shall pass — but how, and when?

To appreciate the problem, you need to know that this isn’t your father’s recession. It’s your grandfather’s, or maybe even (as I’ll explain) your great-great-grandfather’s.

Your father’s recession was something like the severe downturn of 1981-1982. That recession was, in effect, a deliberate creation of the Federal Reserve, which raised interest rates to as much as 17 percent in an effort to control runaway inflation. Once the Fed decided that we had suffered enough, it relented, and the economy quickly bounced back.

Your grandfather’s recession, on the other hand, was something like the Great Depression, which happened in spite of the Fed’s efforts, not because of them. When a stock market bubble and a credit boom collapsed, bringing down much of the banking system with them, the Fed tried to revive the economy with low interest rates — but even rates barely above zero weren’t low enough to end a prolonged era of high unemployment.

Now we’re in the midst of a crisis that bears an eerie, troubling resemblance to the onset of the Depression; interest rates are already near zero, and still the economy plunges. How and when will it all end?

To be sure, the Obama administration is taking action to help the economy, but it’s trying to mitigate the slump, not end it. The stimulus bill, on the administration’s own estimates, will limit the rise in unemployment but fall far short of restoring full employment. The housing plan announced this week looks good in the sense that it will help many homeowners, but it won’t spur a new housing boom.

What, then, will actually end the slump?

Well, the Great Depression did eventually come to an end, but that was thanks to an enormous war, something we’d rather not emulate. The slump that followed Japan’s “bubble economy” also eventually ended, but only after a lost decade. And when Japan finally did start to experience some solid growth, it was thanks to an export boom, which was in turn made possible by vigorous growth in the rest of the world — not an experience anyone can repeat when the whole world is in a slump.

So will our slump go on forever? No. In fact, the seeds of eventual recovery are already being planted.

Consider housing starts, which have fallen to their lowest level in 50 years. That’s bad news for the near term. It means that spending on construction will fall even more. But it also means that the supply of houses is lagging behind population growth, which will eventually prompt a housing revival.

Or consider the plunge in auto sales. Again, that’s bad news for the near term. But at current sales rates, as the finance blog Calculated Risk points out, it would take about 27 years to replace the existing stock of vehicles. Most cars will be junked long before that, either because they’ve worn out or because they’ve become obsolete, so we’re building up a pent-up demand for cars.

The same story can be told for durable goods and assets throughout the economy: given time, the current slump will end itself, the way slumps did in the 19th century. As I said, this may be your great-great-grandfather’s recession. But recovery may be a long time coming.

The closest 19th-century parallel I can find to the current slump is the recession that followed the Panic of 1873. That recession did eventually end without any government intervention, but it lasted more than five years, and another prolonged recession followed just three years later.

You can see, then, why some Fed officials are so pessimistic.

Let’s be clear: the Obama administration’s policy initiatives will help in this difficult period — especially if the administration bites the bullet and takes over weak banks. But still I wonder: Who’ll stop the pain?


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Four Steps to Healing Our Economy ...
Posted by: mmckinl on Feb 21, 2009 12:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here are 4 steps that can mitigate the depression once the banks are nationalized and rationalized ...

~ Nationalize the privately owned and operated Federal Reserve, place it in Treasury and print money without debt.

~ To underwrite the money higher, much higher taxes on the well to do, get rid of loopholes and tax everything as ordinary income. Impose a Tobin Tax and a Carbon Tax. Slash military spending by 50% over 5 years.

~ With the power of printed money pay for Medicare for All, increase unemployment eligibility and duration. Fund more food stamps, rent subsidies and higher education.

~ A 32 hour workweek with at least 3 weeks paid vacation and sick leave. The 40 hour work week was established in 1949. Given the productivity gains this should be easy. Instead workers are working longer hours and now 2 incomes are usually needed!

Politically impossible? ... Now yes, but give the depression time to work.

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» GOING POSTAL Posted by: reelman
» PORKY II IS SOON 2B Posted by: reelman
FASCIST AMERIKA RULED by PROPAGANDA
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Feb 21, 2009 1:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“Your grandfather’s recession, on the other hand, was something like the Great Depression, which happened in spite of the Fed’s efforts, not because of them.”

NO…

Krugman’s Princeton crony “FED” Corp Chair Bernanke admitted otherwise:

“Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry. But thanks to you, we won't do it again.”
Federal Reserve Governor Ben Bernanke (Conference to Honor Milton Friedman, Rockefeller funded economic theorist. University of Chicago 2002)

But of course, the “FED” did do it again. In spades.

“Well, the Great Depression did eventually come to an end, but that was thanks to an enormous war…”

Another falsity from Krugman, as CFR and G30 (Council on Foreign Relations and Group of 30 economics riggers that includes Rockefeller crony Paul Volker) insider. A private Ponzi trap “Federal Reserve” Corp – never federal, with minus nothing for reserves – merely expanded credit again to halt the Great Depression in its tracks. This was in part to enable WW2 that western ruling class oligarchs created by bankrolling Hitler’s war machine to begin with.

“But still I wonder: Who’ll stop the pain?”

This from a Nobel man who said of the meltdown “I didn’t see it coming”. Well, economists F. William Enghdahl, Peter Schiff and others saw it years in advance. Trillions stolen by crook bankers under phony “Wall Street Bailouts” say Krugman is dead incompetent or another sellout. (btw, Alfred Nobel never authorized the Nobel Prize for economics. EVER. His heirs contest this travesty.)

Establishment quack Krugman can “wonder” but never states the obvious: Nationalize the unconstitutional and medieval extortion racket “FED” .The private privilege to print the nation’s money out of thin air debt to charge private interest on it is Fascism.

Dishonest money guarantees FASCISM. Honest money offers democracy. It is that simple and that complex.


“The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the government of the U.S. ever since the days of Andrew Jackson.”
President FDR (during the “Great Depression” on de facto Fascist rule in a letter to corporate monopoly charlatan “Colonel” Edward M. House, co-founder of the Council on Foreign Relations and political fixer for the ruling class. House also handled President Wilson. 11/21/ l933 from "F.D.R.: His Personal Letters”)

“The minority, the ruling class at present, has the schools and press, usually the Church as well, under its thumb. This enables it to organize and sway the emotions of the masses, and make its tool of them.”
Doctor Albert Einstein (letter to Sigmund Freud 7/30/1932. 1879-1955)

“We disapprove of slavery and the cost of the maintenance and upkeep of slaves. We prefer our English model in which we control the issuance of currency, and control of money, it allows us to control labor without the cost of maintaining it.”
Lord Baron Rothschild (private owner of the Bank of England. Quote 1849)

“Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are U.S. government institutions. They are not…The sack of the United States by the Fed is the greatest crime in history…The truth is the Fed has usurped the government. It controls everything here and it controls all our foreign relations. It makes and breaks governments at will.”
Congressman Louis T. McFadden (Chairman Banking & Currency Committee charging a private “FED” Corporation with conspiracy, fraud & treason, June 1932)

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» In Posted by: Rolomax
» In God We Trust, yes, but whose? Posted by: paulmagillsmith
» Economists Posted by: wbblack
» Mr. Psy_ops is the liar Posted by: GuitarBill
» Gasbag TROLL off its Rocker Posted by: PointMan
The stark reality
Posted by: denisaf on Feb 21, 2009 1:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is understandable concern about what the financial chaos is leading to. It could well lead to the Greater Depression. But that is looking at one side of the coin only. The operations of civilization entail irreversibly using up limited natural capital - the goods and services available from the environment. The stark reality is that the natural capital is now becoming scarce. Society will find it increasingly difficult make do by using it at a lower rate. Economic growth is now transiting to economic contraction and there is nothing we can do about it.

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Debunking Federal Reserve myths
Posted by: Perry Logan on Feb 21, 2009 3:21 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Debunking Federal Reserve Myths, by Edward Flaherty, Ph.D. Department of Economics College of Charleston, S.C.

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» logan runs from the probable Posted by: weathered
» Dr. Flaherty is one big joke Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Learn how to read Posted by: ReallyBearish
» I already know how to read. Posted by: GuitarBill
» Drivel Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Drivel? No, it's the truth Posted by: GuitarBill
» You're hopeless Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Bullsh*t Posted by: GuitarBill
» Bullcrap. Posted by: GuitarBill
How do we get out
Posted by: jreal on Feb 21, 2009 3:28 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Get all our money back from the banks. It's not their money. They didn't deserve it.

No bank should be too big to fail. No company or business should be too big to fail. That is absurd. The anti-trust law should be updated that if a business is considered too big to fail, then they have broken our national trust. Case-in-point, 2008/2009.

Businesses too big to fail have caused us to renege on our principles and become socialists. The sick part of it is that we have become corporate socialists. So whilst these capitalist pig have been railing against socialism and neighborly welfare, they have become, in less than just a few months, the greatest recipients of welfare in the history of the world.

These banks should fail. They should be wiped clean of our land. They were saved to protect investors and the markets.

First off, many of the banks stock have fallen further in the crapper since the bailouts. I know there is a recovery period, but don't think they're going to recover more than a dimes worth. The stocks were heavily propped until the bailout.

Second, don't for a second believe that they are going to invest in what we want them to invest in. They are investors in stocks and dividends. There is nothing they want more than more in-flows and the elimination of Main Street.

If the banks fail, the markets will unwind in a free market manner and the recession will end in a shorter manner with newer capitalists and brighter ideas, and more importantly - more Main Street businesses. And that my friends was the biggest scare of them all.

These banks we bailed out, they don't quite represent Main Street. And Main Street would have eventually replaced them. And life would have been better for most because more would have owned businesses or would have been a part of small and meaningful businesses. People would have felt more important, and would be more emboldened, and this would have translated into more creativity and more small businesses working together and working with the community.

These things would have built a stronger sense of community and Corporate America would have been toast.

A stronger better America would have built and replaced the old abusive corporate America.

Instead, retrieve that money and put it into schools and farming, and transportation networks. Relocate this money into small business investments.

Otherwise, we're just prolonging a bigger and nastier bust.


But I guess it's too late.

Oh well, screwed again by the man.

At least he's getting his money with no-strings attached after he's already robbed us and blew it all.

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» RE: How do we get out Posted by: richholland
WW2 ended depression?? $0 for domestic investment, trillions Suddenly available for WAR
Posted by: HANGTRAITORS on Feb 21, 2009 3:48 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its funny how their was no money in the depression.. but when WW2 WAS CREATED there were endless $trillions available to be destroyed in weapons and the holocaust industries... THE WHOLE ECONOMY THEY PRESENT TO US IS A FRAUD

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» RE: Now You See It And Now You Don't Posted by: HANGTRAITORS
What should keep you up at night, Krugman ...
Posted by: gazooks on Feb 21, 2009 4:07 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... is the vast disservice that your lame-brain Harvard BS theoretics have wrought.

It's really too bad that Krugman has audience by default of a generally innocuous personality. If it was as vibrantly toxic as his Ivy League economist, head-up-his-ass mindset warrants, he could perhaps be more readily, broadly and brutally dismissed as he should.

But the pitchman for continuation of ruinous economic practices apparently has Obama by the balls with confused, babbling twitter in the virtues of manipulative economic nirvana despite the nearsighted, transparent obviousness of a total and abject failure. Krugman's head scratching is a natural result of the endgame in an exhausted, elitist, masturbatory, economic daydream of control.

The shit spieling, rethug contradictatoms-for profit, (and hopeful political exploitation), drone on in sanctimonious obstructionist unison. Oh what foresightful patriots all! A post Obama reign-o-Palin should do the trick in tamping the soil on the grave of the bankrupt republic.

So ends the saga of a people forewarned and forearmed. A capitulation by a numbed and dumbed citizenry getting what suckers always get from the paper promises of barkers. A nation bought for limitless beads and trinkets with a lifetime warranty of violent enforcement.

What a deal!

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They knew as much in 1873 as we do today
Posted by: edgar1 on Feb 21, 2009 5:01 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the author shows, doing nothing is the same as doing what the Blazing Obama has done and probably will do-spend, spend spend. And debase our currency.

To quote the languid Eagles: "Take It Easy".

Let's shut down the federal govt; hand over power to the states or to regional asssociations as they arise, and give the trillions of wasted bucks directly to the people from whom they were stolen by IRS and the Fed to begin with.

The 1787 Constitution is obsolete: it is the wedge that allowed reckless destruction of the greatest economy the world ever saw and the destruction of the best educational system the world ever saw.

We can't get rid of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments fast enough. No one know what they mean except for the lawyers and Big Ego Judges who have re-written the words of Congress over and over to satisfy political agendas and pandering to groups that demand equality even if they contribute virtually nothing to national greatness.

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» You have a real short memory Posted by: ReallyBearish
Just once, I'd like to hear Krugman give his solution
Posted by: Evora on Feb 21, 2009 5:02 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He's always quick to complain and criticize, but where are HIS solutions?

Come on Paul. Let's see some specifics of how a Nobel prize-winning economist would 'stop the pain', not the inane repetition of vague proclamations that 'the stimulus was too small' and over-simplified comparisons to meltdowns of other times.

This article was a waste of cyber-space and your time. The next time you're up at night, why not do something useful. Instead of the endless drone of how everyone else is doing it wrong that I hear from you, let's hear exactly how the celebated Mr. Krugman would do it right.

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Eustace Mullins : Parasitism : A MUST READ
Posted by: HANGTRAITORS on Feb 21, 2009 5:24 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
DO A GOOGLE SEARCH

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Thoreau
Posted by: kafka, f on Feb 21, 2009 5:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
KPMG KPMG KPMG/Tax Shelter Tax Shelter Tax Shelter. Of course all the banks are insolvent and KPMG audits a disproportionate amount of them. You thought KPMG’s tax shelter shenanigans were disturbing, such activities were nothing compared to the 100s of Billions of fraud contained in the banks financial statements that KPMG audits. Just remember Flynn and his high priced lawyers tried to help put all the tax shelter partners in prison, what do you think Flynn is going to do to all the Audit Partners who have helped the banks engage in massive fraud by signing off on fraudulent bank financial statements? Though it is difficult to muddle through the fraudulent KPMG bank financial statements, it is not impossible and from that you can profit. Many of us made a small fortune shorting Citibank the KPMG audit client just by understanding the fraudulent nature of Citi’s financials. It is like taking candy from a baby, a favorite KPMG saying.

As one small example for all you dopes who somehow think the system is not and has not always been rigged by liars and thieves, Citi’s 10q as of 9/31/08 shows capital of about $126 billion yet its market cap as of today is $19 Billion (though it is likely insolvent). Forget about FAS 157 there are a million ways around it, the more difficult scam to discern is the use of SIVs to offload bad assets from Citi’s balance sheet so it does not have to recognize the losses. To Citi’s credit it does disclose in footnote 15 of its 10q potential exposure of about $130 Billion for part of their SPEs. Of course such amount is in excess of its stated book capital and almost 7 times larger than its current market cap and likely massively understated.

I know no one saw this coming; you can’t know the unknown; and all KPMG did was follow the accounting rules. Then how come a dope like me could figure it out? Further, that is what the tax partners thought before Tim Flynn, Joe Loonan and Swen Holmes tried to get them put in prison. In fact, many beginning as early as 2005 saw this problem coming like Dr. Roubini and used simple math to explain why. If KPMG is so expert at anything, why didn’t KPMG see this coming and warn all the decimated Citi investors. Personally, I am glad KPMG continued to produce the self evident fraudulent financials because me and my kind made a fortune off all the idiots who think any integrity exists within the fraudulent accounting statements or companies (such statements are reflective of).

In fact, Dr. Roubini is suggesting formally nationalizing all the banks (which most of are already 100% owned on a fair market value basis) because the system is insolvent. It may be time to short these fraudulent companies yet again if he is right, any thoughts?

15. SECURITIZATIONS AND VARIABLE INTEREST ENTITIES

The following tables summarize the Company's significant involvement in VIEs in millions of dollars:


As of September 30, 2008
(continued)
Maximum exposure to loss in
significant unconsolidated VIEs
(continued) As of December 31, 2007(1)
Total maximum exposure Consolidated
VIE assets Significant
unconsolidated
VIE assets(2) Maximum exposure to loss in
significant unconsolidated
VIE assets(3)
$
$ 130,789 $ 121,558 $ 356,326 $ 152,248


Total stockholders' equity 126,062 126,962 (1

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A Few Ideas
Posted by: Andie927 on Feb 21, 2009 5:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1.) In case no one has noticed, the price of new & used cars, has not come down hardly at all. Instead of 'giving' the car manufacturer's more money, tell them to lower their prices till they start selling.

2.) Since corporations/Wall Street, go around saying 'how high of a tax rate they pay'. Let's eliminate ALL of the corporate loop-holes, so the Corporation actually start paying SOME income tax! The last figure I heard, was 40% don't pay any.

3.) If you really want to sell your house, it's not hard. (we just closed on one) Lower the Price, bite the bullet,and take the lose. Realitors' are keeping the prices artificially high, why? The higher the price, the more money they make. Plus, a lot of them are buying up the best forclosure deals. Seen the ads, Broker Owner?

4.) A new 'FAIR TRADE', policey where we put our Import taxes, at an equal rate to 'their' the other country's, Import Tax, on our products! Also make a new stipulation, that an import equalization for labor fee will be part of any agreement. Our base cost-of-living in this country is around $12 an hour. For a single person, to live modestly, but still be able to eat 2 or 3 meals a day. If the same cost of living standard were applied, to Mexico/China/India it would probable be about 50 cents an hour! There has to be a labor sur-charge on Imported goods! WE, Americans can't live on the same wages many of the workers in other countries can.

*5*) NONE of the Above will happen, until Corporations are no longer given the same rights, as individuals under the Constitution! Corporations, are NOT people! They aren't 'born', don't need medical care, can't vote, and don't die of natural causes!

Eliminating their 'person' status, and rights; will eliminate their right to Lobby Congress, and donate to campaigns.

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» RE: A Few Ideas Posted by: djnoll
» Excellent Ideas Posted by: ATH
Time to pay attention to local and state elections.
Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 21, 2009 6:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think Washington is gonna listen until we can improve the voter turnout on all levels. The NRA succeeded by penetrating on all levels of government and they're still strong as can be. Besides, unlike the Great Depression Era, Main Street is too busy fighting itself to GUN DOWN Wall $treet for its crimes.

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The Great Potato Famine
Posted by: Purple Girl on Feb 21, 2009 7:24 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What Brought so many immigrants to these shores? Not just to escape natural disasters but economic shackles which had assured they nor their children would be anything more than 3rd class citizens- 'The American Dream'
Not only does Lady Liberty call to the 'Tried and Poor', but the 'Huddled masses Yearning to breath FREE'.those who's countries 'Trickle Down' socio economic Political System which had left them starving and diseased (related to poor nutrition, living conditions and access to 'medical' care.) sound Familiar?
Cheaper to buy Happy Meals than buy ingredients for home, 2 million Home foreclosues and counting and Refusal to pass Universal health care.

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Did The New Deal Work?
Posted by: asjogren on Feb 21, 2009 8:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Liberals claim that the New Deal worked. And they have statistics to back their assertions.

Conservatives claim that the New Deal did not work. And that World War II got the USA out of the Great Depression. And, in fact, the economy did do better then.

It seems to me that the lesson here is that NEITHER disputes that massive Government Deficit Spending got us out of the Great Depression.

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» RE: Did The New Deal Work? Posted by: reason
» Learn to count Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Nor will the Newest Deal Posted by: edgar1
Is it only for economic journalists?
Posted by: Sojourner on Feb 21, 2009 8:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That is, just asking questions? I thought economists were supposed to supply solutions. Or is it more modest to ask than to admit you have no answer? In other words, that's why it's called the dreary science?

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One thing not talked about and important
Posted by: Bob Horn on Feb 21, 2009 9:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The last depression was not ended just by World War II but the re-structuring of capital afterwords, and I am not mainly talking about the Marshall Plan. What happened after WW II is that the U.S. got to own the colonies that Germany and Japan had owned and got to super-exploit Asia, Africa, Latin America, the Middle East,...etc and poverty was huge in the Third World after the war but the average white American had it pretty soft untill now. The world is only so big and the major powers are running out of colonies to rip off (those that remain are fighting back too).

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Steady State Economy
Posted by: thelorax on Feb 21, 2009 9:15 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Renewable energy is the new new deal.

The solution to our problems is simple. Live sustainably. People will have to pull together like we have to get through other difficult times. There is likely going to be a massive die off of life on this planet judging from the way climate change is exceeding the darkest predictions of climate scientists. I suspect this is a trend. So, no, I don't think there will be a recovery of what we've lost. We are actually on the cusp of great change. Most people sense it. The environment is changing too quickly for life to adapt and this rate of change will only increase over time. Our only chance is to use the opportunity we have to spend what money is left on just the right things. Wind generators built out of used car and truck parts, make your own beer, soap, clean water, food, etc.. In other words, survival gear.

I'm not suggesting that we all square off and go back to the bad old days and just take what we need from the weakest and leave them to die. I'm saying that the indigenous peoples of the world that are still living have the best chances of noticing that things have improved. They will perhaps notice that their forest isn't being cut down anymore because developers ran out of money and expansion is on hold indefinitely. They probably won't notice the reduction of pollution in their water or air.

I believe that humanity can survive this change but we will have to use every tool at our disposal including living very very simply. You can look at it as the single largest step backwards the human race has ever taken, or as the greatest leap forward. It is our choice.

We need to redesign community around people instead of the car. We all hate the commute anyway, admit it! I envision myself living in a teepee, riding my bike and using my laptop with electricity from a small solar panel and windmill. Hunting, fishing and gathering acorns for food (White oaks' acorns don't need to be soaked six times like most acorns. The tanic acid will cause kidney damage so that has to be soaked out till the water is clear. Save that though, you'll need it to tan the hides of the animals that you use every bit of).

So in some ways, I see a more than hundred year step back. I think the thing I'll miss most is heat, light and the internet. I say we do what we can to think of things in these terms and do what we need to do to remain "civilized". Start reaching out to your neighbors. Talk to local farmers and start a food coop. Begin thinking about local food security. An entire city can heat all its houses using geothermal technology using the potable water supply. Geothermal works by concentrating the heat from virtually any medium (usually with loops of plastic pipe in the ground). The cities water supply is easily adapted to this use. All the would be required is to develop substations at key locations throughout the city to put the heat being extracted by homes back into the potable water supply. It requires only a little electricity to use and all the heat actually comes from underground. This technology already exists, we just have to put it together. It will create jobs and cheap heat for a city.

The solutions are out there. Apocalypse or Impending Paradise. The choice is ours

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» Im for impending Paradise Posted by: butterflycrossing
Reality vs the rest
Posted by: Cosmic Surfer on Feb 21, 2009 9:32 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The hours of spin on the spin spent spinning more spin..left and right and right to left all meeting to play it up to the highest, most extreme spin could have actually been used to better advantage if the truth of the issue were taught to the populace instead of on all the poly-perverse auto-erotic mind games
The NATIONALIST view is no longer valid. This is no longer a NATIONAL issue and hasn't been since the 1700's. What happens in South America effects the WORLD; In China effects the World; In Bulgaria effects the World.
What Gramm-Leach-Bliley, Reversal of Glass-Steagall, and the housing "bubble" created by speculators effected the WORLD.
The people of this country need to understand that there is no such thing as a national economy. IT IS INTERNATIONAL and will be from here on until we find another planet to incorporate into the nightmare.
We can no longer focus on that tiny little part called the Federal Reserve. it is the international economy that must be fixed and to do that the parties of the world need to come up with the solution. Not a President in the US, a Prime Minister in England and a president in Australia each with their own simplistic little band-aid.
The sooner the people understand that nationalism is as much a dinosaur as the fossil fuel pumped from the ground, the closer we will be to understanding the truth of it.
American Exceptionalism is still rampant in the minds of the people in this country and it can be heard on this board as well.
WE are NOT the "LIGHT to GUIDE the rest of the World" We are equal players with bigger egos and a complete lack of concern and chosen lack of awareness for our effect on the other 6,451,489,198 people on this planet

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portage@uwyo.edu
Posted by: archives@uwyo.edu on Feb 21, 2009 10:28 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Misery makes the useless rich what they are. It is the perfect secret police.

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Mark Hamilton
Posted by: markhamil on Feb 21, 2009 11:15 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of the reports of economic experts from Paul Volker, Paul Krugman, etc. record that one of the meltdowns around the world has been in the production of hard goods. This of course can be connected to the housing melt down. You don't by a stove for a house you can't bye.

On the other hand is it possible that we have finally sated the world with hard goods? Have we finally bought enough to last us for a while and so we aren't buying more. I have noticed that over the last several years that the washers, dryers, cars etc. Seem to last longer with better quality than they did at an earlier time. They also seem to have run the gamut of new bells and whistles. Is is possible that by a strange convergence the lack of demand has been exacerbated by lack of need to bye hard goods even if one could easily afford them.

Certainly the emerging world of China and India in their growth would seem to be fair grounds for significant increases in demand but maybe not just yet. And so we have a gap of diminishing demand before the wealth in emerging economies is strong enough and deep enough to propel continuing strong demand.

The demand for cheap quality goods may well have succeeded and people now keep them.

Take care,
Mark

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» What planet are you on? Posted by: edgar1
Krugman: Who Will Stop the Economic Pain?
Posted by: pfm on Feb 21, 2009 12:01 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We're in the midst of a crisis that bears an eerie resemblance to the onset of the Depression. How and when will it all end? ... so the author of this article notes. What I find is the near religious zealousness and attachment to promoting - fear - be afraid, be very afraid. What we need now is an honest consistent dose of POSITIVE affecting all aspects of our life, from the time we wake up until the time we go to bed. Turn off that damn TV news and sit-com shows ... read, write engage your neighbor in real conversation about the things that matter - education - health insurance issues - how to create new jobs in the neighborhood...? Dull, I know when compared to those sexy sitcoms but that's mere fantasy and this is your life...?

Respectfully,

Paul F. Miller
striving to promote sustainable awareness

BLOG SITE NAME ... AUTHENTICALLY WIRED

BLOG SITE ADDRESS ... http://waterman99.wordpress.com/2009

... everyone has the right to clean & accessible water, adequate for the health & well being of the individual & family, and no one shall be deprived of such acess or quality of water due to individual economic circumstances ... Article # 31 - United Nations

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Money and wealth
Posted by: Evelyn on Feb 21, 2009 12:44 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Money is a way to keep track of wealth. Wealth is actual products and services, and has to actually be produced. Gambling (ie stock and housing speculation) does not create wealth, it just moves it around. In the past, money was printed as actual pieces of paper, and if you printed more paper money than there was wealth to match it, you got inflation (ie the amount of wealth stayed the same but the amount of paper money needed to buy it went up.) Today, paper money has been largely replaced by electronic money, numbers on a computer screen. But the same rules apply--there should only be as many decimal places as there is actual wealth to match it.

I think what is happening, at root, is that there is way more pretend wealth on balance sheets at every level than there is actual produced wealth to back it up. When the word gets out, all that imaginary money gets blown away. That's necessary.

But just as the market overshoots on the way up, creating more paper wealth than there is real wealth, it also overshoots on the way down, slowing down the production of actual wealth due to lack of confidence and fear of loss. That's when the folks in the bottom half of the economy get hurt. They never had much in the way of paper wealth. But all of a sudden, their role in the production of real wealth also gets taken away and the downward spiral begins.

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» Hot Air is Wealth Too Posted by: edgar1
Sheesh!
Posted by: Pirate1 on Feb 21, 2009 3:38 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Apparently everyone can only see some form of getting back to the way things WERE as a solution. When will you wake up and realize we don't have the forests left to sustain another housing boom of the proportions needed to get things that way again. We are choking in an increasingly polluted atmosphere and yet are looking to Canadian Oil Sands and coal for salvation, as if nothing whatsoever is wrong.
We have nearly fished the oceans clean of all fish and still universities find the funding to labor at finding ways to get every last fish. We can readily see that damming rivers has contributed to this die off but we plan to build more as droughts grip formerly verdant areas of the planet.
What was that definition of madness? Continuing to do something that has proven not to work hoping that the results will change by some magic? We need to give it up as far as living with all these conveniences and luxuries or we will become just another rock strata future geologically curious creatures will ponder as we do prehistoric life forms.
Alternative energy sources are here now but if we don't use them, the social breakdown will make manufacturing them later impossible and we WILL lose it all. Next time you go to Mexico or Ankor Wat or Easter Island to see the ruins, know that once these were thriving centers like our own cities today and through short sightedness and ignorance, the local environment that had enabled them at first collapsed and people died or moved away and the earth reclaimed them. The scary thing is that back then it was fairly localized, there were other ares that could come back and eventually grow into new centers... this time the scale of the collapse will be global and it won't just be us but a majority of the food species we count on. Give it some thought. It CAN happen here...

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Maybe fascism in the U.S. this time?
Posted by: frantic1971 on Feb 21, 2009 7:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How will it all end? The "last" Great Depression led to fascism in Europe and the devastation of World War II.

The U.S. itself narrowly escaped a fascist coup plotted against FDR in 1934.

If things get much worse. If we have 40% unemployment, massive deflation, increasing civil unrest as people are faced with loss of jobs and homes---how many people in the U.S. would actually welcome a fascist takeover? Wouldn't alot of people welcome a "tough guy" on a white horse who promises to deliver us from our problems? Someone who believes a good dose of repression will get the country in shape? What if it is combined with some sort of right-wing religious veneer? I live in the midwest, and there are literally hordes of angry and disgruntled young men out here who would gladly serve as the brownshirts of a movement to "clean up the country". People who would gladly and with great zest go about the business of eliminating gays, liberals, immigrants, intellectuals. Haven't there been fascist tendencies in the U.S. before?

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All Wrong
Posted by: yesman on Feb 21, 2009 10:22 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is yet another example of precisely the wrong kind of thinking at this point in time. Why should we be wondering how long the "slump" will last? Why should we be looking forward to its end? Maybe, rather, we should adapt to the end of the bogus consumer economy which is killing our planet and our own chances for survival. Maybe we should begin trying to find meaning in the things which formerly held it--friends and family, community, spirituality, our place in the land--rather than hoping to revive the vacuous consumerist lifestyle which has left most of us dislocated, depressed and dispirited, even in the midst of all the consumer crap which we've accumulated.

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The Beginning of The Beginning
Posted by: Tom Degan on Feb 22, 2009 1:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The other day on MSNBC someone (I wish I could remember his name) finally had the guts to blurt out the harsh, undeniable reality. For the first time since the crash of September 15 the cold, hard truth was spoken:

This is going to last for at least a decade.

If we're lucky it will ONLY last a decade. And why not? It took us thirty years to dig us into this hole, how can anyone in his or her right mind expect things to be back to normal in a matter of months?

The seeds of America's economic suicide can be traced back to that day in 1980 when the people decided that sending a feeble-minded, failed "B" movie actor named Ronald Reagan to the White House was a really neat idea. What must be remembered is that Reagan was essentially a mask - with a twinkle in its eye and a fine, Irish smile. Remove that mask and what is revealed is the twisted, hideous smirk of George W. Bush.

That's the real face of the so-called "Reagan Revolution". Don't you dare forget it.

www.tomdegan.blogspot.com

They Hate Us

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY

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Well, I've Certainly Changed My Views About Krugman.
Posted by: ATH on Feb 22, 2009 3:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I used to think Paul Krugman was a good, and honest economist. It's my view that there are very few out there that either know what's actually going on, or who are honest enough to admit it. I thought Krugman was both of these; but apparently, he either doesn't know what's truly going on, or is lying about it, or both. I even wrote and emailed him a letter, asking his wiews about such institutions as the FED (as well as our practice of fractional reserve banking, etc), but I never received an answer. Of course, my email probably ended up in his junk mail, since he doesn't know me.

I'm also disappointed in his confusing referrence to different periods of recession by possessive association with one's father and grandather. For one, it assumes an homogenous age group, where one doesn't exist. In also referring to the Great Depression seperately you create yet more confusion. I mean, my father and grandfather went through the Great Depression. My father is in his late eighties, and was born into the G.D. You can figure out my grandfather's place by knowing my father's aprox. birth date.

The fact is, we are about to suffer a Depression that will dwarf the G.D. At least back then, F.D.R truly acted, and acted very boldly. This is a new world, without the industry we once had, without a gold-backed currency; our entire economic system, every since the Federal Reserve System was enacted and began moving us towards a system based entirely on credit and debt, is basically a big-CONfidence game of smoke and mirrors. Sure, there are the people who actually keep America's consumer economy going, the people from retail to restaurants who actually work, (runing on a treadmill that just keeps getting faster as inflation--which is actually mostly not the prices of good and services going up due to demand-supply issues, as it is only taught in basic economics, but actually the value of the dollar going down, due to the FED printing up more and more of an unbacked currency..and the more one has of anything, including money, the less it's worth--goes up, while wages have stagnated for a decade), but because they have been rewarded sooo poorly that now the base of our economy has collapsed. the only other economic forces we have are the war economy (weapons are the U.S. #1 export..jobs are probably its second!!), and the Wallstreet and International bankers "economy." The first only benefits a very small portion of Americans, at the price of a bloated beyond all reason and resonsibility DoD budget, the employment of Intelligence personnel and resources to make sure there is constant conflict in the world, and having to suffer the backlash for our constant interferrence in other countries in numerous ways. 9/11 would be one of those un-intended consequences, although that is a can of worms I'm not going to open right now.

As for Wallstreet and International bankers--they actually do not "create wealth." What they create is debt, and the interest they suck from all of us is their "created wealth." This is not a benefit to the economy, we have only been tricked--as parasites trick all their hosts--into believing this. See, a parasite merges with its host and influences the host's mind. That is exactly what these private bankers are-and have been since the beginning of civilization: parasites. They live off of our sweat, and makemore money collecting and trading our sweat than we do by actually doing the work making the sweat! And yes, this is a methophorical analogy, and hopefully one that everyone understood, because it is the non-technical essense of exactly what these bankers do.

Okay, I'm almost out of space, so I will continue us this next post.

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» Theory of Everything? Posted by: bornxeyed
FED has purposely created every depression
Posted by: 911FalseFlag on Feb 22, 2009 5:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Greatest Financial Fraudulent Scam Ever

The Federal Reserve is the most fraudulent scam invented in modern history or ever. The Federal Reserve is the life blood of the monster called the War Machine. The monster is brainless and ruthless and will certainly destroy the planet if its feeding system is not broken down and totally annihilated. As a matter of fact only a true revolution and public uprising can undue the vicious and malicious scheme. But first there has to be public awareness at a planetary dimension because the entire planet is suffering from its ravages and havoc.

Public awareness has to be extensive and capable of resisting MSM noise and propaganda. The powers-that-be will do anything and commit any crimes in order to protect the monster because it gives them unlimited power which they are not going to cede at any price. Public awareness means focusing people's attention permanently on what the Fed is all about and the damage it is wreaking upon human life and life in general.

911insidejob is making a great contribution in helping people wake up to the sordid reality; and this effort has to be acknowledged and promoted by every awakened citizen. It's up to all of us to become engaged in the battle if life is to go on on this planet harmoniously and peacefully.

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Flawed basic assumptions.
Posted by: gunboat diplomat on Feb 22, 2009 8:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Well, the Great Depression did eventually come to an end, but that was thanks to an enormous war"

If this is the level of understanding among politicians, we're screwed.

Krugman, despite all evidence to the contrary, still believes in the GDP as the sole measure of economic health.

He also ignores the fact that Roosevelt's efforts were continually opposed by Wall Street interests, who used every tactic known to derail his reforms - and who also were heavily investing in the "disciplined and efficient" fascist European dictatorships.

By comparison, Obama is looking more like Hoover than like FDR.

What will end this latest economic collapse? It will require an FDR-scale jobs program aimed at adapting to looming climate change as well as at replacing imported and polluting fossil fuels with renewable wind, solar and biofuels.

That would require a WWII-scale industrial and agricultural effort - in the face of massive deficits, military overextension on a global basis from Iraq to Afghanistan - and where next, Africa? Most of that is aimed at securing control of oil and other natural resources, or blocking out China - definitely not about "promoting democracy".

So why aren't we doing this? The world's despots want to keep us hooked on an energy source that they control - it's as simple as that. Free-market fundamentalism is one way of doing that (billionaires rule); totalitarian communism(party leaders rule) is another.

Note that in China, the children of the old authoritarian Communist leadership are the new billionaires of China's "free market system". The wealth of these billionaires is managed by the likes of Societe General and Rockefeller Financial Services, who have very large holdings in Chevron, Exxon, etc. They set up philanthropic institutions to finance think tanks and bogus front groups to get their propaganda viewpoints on oil wars and global warming across to the public. (cash flow: Exxon & Chevron -> Rockefeller Finacial Services -> Rockfeller Philanthropy -> The Breakthrough Institute).

This is the kind of dishonest manipulative crap we have to put up with - and the press plays a key role in promoting the output of the think tanks - something that the NYT and Washington Post seem to specialize in.

Despite the obvious failure of ideology, the free market fundamentalism and blind GDP tracking still persist.

It's a joke - the basic fact is that the Iraq war blew up the oil price which blew up the subprime market - it was all paper money blown up by fear and manipulation, with no real physical value - and while that was going on, U.S. manufacturing collapsed due to the bizarre trade policies enshrined in NAFTA and WTO rules (which Obama says we are "obliged to respect", even though he ignores the nuclear treaties to help GE sell reactors to India, who is now building nuclear submarines).

The lunatics are running the asylum, and the press won't discuss it. It's patently obvious that high oil prices brought on by the Iraq war blew up the housing bubble - but will Krugman discuss it? Will Krugman discuss the economics of Iraqi oil and the real reasons behind the invasion and occupation - which his paper helped sell to the public as a necessity? Recall Cheney holding up the NYT as evidence of Saddam's nukes? Somehow, I doubt it.

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military budgets must go
Posted by: wleming on Feb 22, 2009 10:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Astronomical military spending is bankrupting the US.. why is there no talk of cutting costs within a bloated military industrial complex? Because the lobbists and vested interests are in the Congress. The pork must be cut in order that the US survive.

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Who'll stop the pain? ---- David Korten.
Posted by: amacd on Feb 22, 2009 5:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Paul, there is a simple answer to this focus even Glorifying of the 'Gilded Age' --- and not surprisingly, the reason that conservatives worship the Gilded Age is directly connected to your question in today's column, "Who’ll stop the pain?"

The answer is that for conservatives (or really for the detached ruling-elite, who truly enjoy Empire) nothing beats that golden era of empires (acknowledged or disguised) well before WWI, when there was no depressing understanding of negative externality costs, and the party seemed to be able to go on forever --- although the more enjoyable empires cumulatively required exploitation of more than 100% of the planet's surface to maintain that 'buzz' of empire intoxication.

The party must have seemed perfect for conservative, upper class British, French, Germans, Dutch, and oh yes, Americans in that Titanic world of pleasurable excess for all -- or at least all of them.

The first sharp slap in the face by reality was finding that their cumulative demands on the planet added to more than 100% and that there would be some fighting (two and a half wars) about who got what.

But this current. 21st century, even sharper slap for the well to do, for the ruling-elite, and for the Empire-lovers, is the understanding that what 'negative externality cost' really means is not only a bit sobering for their Champagne party, but makes even the single dominant surviving empire (and its ruling-elite) barf, when they realize that even cutting-out the competition of any rival empires still requires more than 100% of the whole earth just for them to survive in the style they have become accustomed to.

The sinking of the 'Titanic' was the symbolic end of overt empires and the 'Gilded Age', and the sinking of this titanic economy will signal the end of the last covert “Vichy’ empire.

But fortunately, David Korten's fabulous, "Agenda for a New Economy" tells who (or rather how) we'll "stop the pain" --- and broaden the party to all.

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WAR ON PROSPERITY
Posted by: reelman on Feb 26, 2009 8:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OBAMA: HIS WAR ON PROSPERITY

Its Feb 26.2009, take a look at the DRUDGE headlines
:
CONGRESS: BIG BUCKS TO CANOES & TATTOOS… Obama Budget Proposes Up to $750B More Bank-Rescue…

$75.5B More Iraq, Afghanistan Combat Operations…

TAX THE RICH: Take everything they earn, and it still won’t be enough…

‘It’s more Obama Robin Hood’…

$634B ‘Health-Care Fund’…

FIDELITY exec slams ‘New Deal II’; Blames feds for crisis…

Outlook grim for costly initiatives…

CRAWFISH NOTE:The socialists are just loving this…crisis…more borrowing and overspending…history teaches us (for those who want to know) that the gov-meant only lengthens recessions…the DOW is your beacon, a few hundred up is not much when its down over 2,000 since Obama was elected and a thousand more when he took the lead in the polls last fall. Its not all coincidence. Socialism ruins freedom and the free market. Remember its ALL borrowed money by the royal democrat congress…and you know who will pay thru the nose down the road. The strategy is to use the higher achievers money to buy the lower achievers votes. Neat, huh? Its what they do so get used to it.
You can bull and smile but the DOW knows…reality is something the modern national liberal has not yet accepted.
Look for more excuses as the summer goes by and your retirement fund stays down 30% from July 2008.
Can you say “Jimmah Carter?” SUCKERS.

http://conservablogs.com/theconservativecrawfish/

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FLV converter for MAC OS X
Posted by: screw_1 on Feb 27, 2009 12:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
__________________________
video converter for mac

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Krugman has a point
Posted by: independent1 on Feb 28, 2009 11:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Despite the attacks on Mr. Krugman, he is a legitimate expert on economics and - thankfully - not tied to the discredited, simplistic "Free Marketism" of the Right.

Krugman has a legitimate point: Both the housing and automobile markets have a built in trigger for up-cycles. That is: pent up demand.

Right now, in Oakland County, MI. - there're houses in foreclosure which are being snapped up by anyone with a decent (and proper) down payment. Oakland County was the center for the housing boom in Michigan: it helped the rapid inflation of the housing bubble, it experienced the bubble burst ahead of other areas - and it is now apparently leading the recovery cycle.

Likewise: If you live in the Lower Peninsula of Michigan, you know what "the Car Culture" is all about. Much of the past prosperity of the auto industry (and its workers) was based on two things: "style / trend" and simple need. Some buyers want "style" and others simply need a new car to replace the old one. Both types of consumer tend to create cycles in auto sales and the industry must go along for the ride (while trying to influence it with advertising). Right now: both types of consumer are "in recession" - thus, so is the auto industry. At some not too distant time: both types of car buyer will hit the dealer lots and sales will accelerate like a Corvette. The auto industry will be only partially ready (thanks to LOANS from the government) - but they'll start retooling and re-hiring with due haste.

My guess: the current slump in these two major areas won't get much better before some time in 2010. The pent up demand WILL make itself known by then because there'll actually be three years of holding back to spur it.

Meanwhile: SOME construction labor will be diverted to the resurgent infrastructure rebuild created by the stimulus bill. This may actually cause an eventual labor shortage in both the home construction and auto industry but that's not certain. At least: it appears the infrastructure rebuild will "help" keep unemployment (of high wage workers!) from getting out of hand. Our infrastructure badly needs the attention, too.

As in times past: the last problem holding things back are the bank and investment sectors. Something has to be done to "motivate" banks to return to normal. The stock and bond markets, never rational to begin with, will start revving progressively faster once the current "mental depression" wears off - as it always does. So it appears that putting all bankers on amphetamines might be the one thing overlooked so far.

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