Every one of these arguments could be shot down by a blind man, but nobody reads long comments.
You sir, are a blinkered fool.

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If you had waited before writing this article, you would have seen that most commenters do not agree with you.

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Last year U.S. made better cars than Europe did. At least, for comparable models, customer satisfaction was higher for American cars than for equivalent-sized European models.

The Ford Focus my daughter drives is the least troublesome and most economical car I ever rode in. All the empirical evidence points to much higher quality and better economy--especially for the price--than anything you can buy from a German or Scandinavian manufacturer.

I can't speak for people like Michael Moore at the 'smooth-ride' end of the auto market, but down here at the pay-least-for-the-most end, I'd buy American.

Those much-maligned UAW workers are not only well-paid; they earn their money.

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The slugs in the Congress gave billions of dollars to an idiot of the Bush/Cheney crime family to give to their buddies and cohorts in the organized crime operations calling themselves banks, hedge funds, insurance companies without even demanding an accounting. Of course all these industries are exploitative beyond belief, private tyrannies is too gentle a term for them. But most important they do not have unions. There are no mechanisms, outside of civil suits, for workers to protect their rights in these organizations and the Republicans and Republicrats have been steadily eating away at the legal system over the years to destroy that avenue of securing workers rights.

The working class in this country has been eliminated even in the conversation because the term 'middle class' has been used by the purveyors of bullshit, to obfuscate the fact the the middle class in this country is tiny. The working class constitutes 80 to 90% of the population.

The class war has been waged so deftly by the exploiters and criminals in the ruling elites, that the only people who do not know that they are under assault are the working class themselves.

But this financial crises, no accident I believe, will perhaps be a wake up call for the working class when they see the treatment given to the auto industry after the theft of billions by the bankers and wall street hustlers.

I hope people are paying close attention to what is going on. It is a disgrace and a direct affront to every worker in this country. It may in fact be time for another revolution - after all the right of the people to dissolve a form of government which has become oppressive and non-responsive is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence itself.

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The market value of Ford and GM is about $3 billions. Buying them seems more advantageous than lending them $34 billions. The government could insist on more electric vehicles being produced, better credit deals etc. The actual production decisions should be left to the present employees, who in lieu of salary should share in profits, if any.
At worst both firms go belly up and we lose $3 billions. Perhaps, the talents now embedded in the bureaucracy.

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The Big 3 were spiralling down and out before the financial meltdown. The current crisis just turned the spiral into a nose dive. There are reasons why the Japanese, Koreans, and German auto makers have been eating their lunch. The management of GM, Ford, and Chrysler, with the tacit endorsement of their stockholders and the UAW, have resisted every advance in fuel economy standards and manufacturing practices for decades. (Honda can convert a single factory from making one model car to another in a matter of hours or days. It takes GM months to do the same thing.) The UAW, like much of the American labor movement, especially the building and construction trades, has refused to see the forest for the trees for years. (SEIU is a shining exception.)
There is no reason to promote what doesn't work.

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How ridiculous your arguments are against Moore's post! You believe that Ford's quality is equal to Toyota because the long ago discredited Consumer Reports says it is! Have you not followed litany of bogus and biased reports that have issed from that organization over last 10 years? But let's assume that your statement is accurate and that the big 3 have suddenly become the equals in quality, mileage and price to the Japanese and Korean auto companies. Why should I buy a vehicle from them now after they have proven for decades previously that they produce crap? why should I risk my hard earned dollars on the distant possibility that their product will now miraculously be the equivalent of the Toyota Highlander Hybrid that I own today? A car that has never once in 3 years had anything other than standard maintenance, just like the previous Highlander that we had for 4 years. So during the 7 years that I have had 2 Toyotas that never once required a visit to the dealership for a single repair for a defect of any kind. I should now trust that they have finally resolved all of their quality and performance issues and rush out and buy a GMC SUV? The big 3 LOST the opportunity to sell me a car because they produced poorly designed and poorly manufactured products for decades while Toyota, Honda, Nissan and others have been producing high-quality, well-designed and competitively priced products and doing so in the U.S. while the big 3 blame the same workers for making them noncompetitive. I won't even address your other ridiculous claims because they are even more specious. I don't understand how someone with such poorly reasoned commentary is able to post on Alternet.

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The Big Three shot themselves in the foot, just as Michael Moore points out. Most of their problems were created by their past inferior products, ignoring future market trends and overpriced labor contracts. There is plenty of blame to go around to management, the UAW and its members, their boards and shareholders.

That being said, the auto industry is still a major part of the American economy and their failure would bring catastrophic results across large parts of the economy, as Toby Barlow points out.

I do find the hullabaloo over the possible auto makers bailout amusing in contrast to how quickly the Wall Street bailout happened with no where near as much fuss. To my mind, doing a $700 billion bailout that was fast tracked to protect a couple hundred thousand jobs (I'm not convinced many of the threatened failures would have impacted America that much in the longer run, but I'm no economist) versus all the fussing over a $34 billion bail out to help an industry employing several million around the country makes no sense.

I say do the deal with strings attached. The American people should have a stake in the automaker bailout that happens. If there ends up being a positive result, then the people can have an indirect and direct gain from the auto bailout!

Failure to attempt to help the auto industry could haunt the American economy for years to come.

Let's do the deal!

(As a matter of record, I am a long time resident of Flint, Michigan, which has gone from 77,000 to 7,100 Gm jobs over the past 30 years or so.)

((My household also owns two 2001 Saturns with 92,000 and 139,000 miles on them and only one breakdown at 125,000 miles which I think is excellent.))

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would be the word to describe Detroit's attitude toward American consumers. I to suffered mightily by wanting to drive American cars only to be burdened with low quality, high priced junk. I have not bought an American car for 2 decades now. (why would I, the first toyota I bought lasted seven years without any significant repair and I finally traded it out of boredom) The automakers of Detroit need bankruptcy court. This is the appropriate arena in which the incompetent management, the bloated labor costs, and the interest of all parties to be fairly adjudicated resides. This process and ONLY this process will produce a new efficiency and future for the automobile business. The government BILLIONS should be spent to guarantee health costs and unemployment compensation for ALL workers in every affected industry. You and I and everyone knows that once the congress, labor unions, and 'management' get 'working together', all is lost!

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The Foreign Banksters (aka Rothschilds and Rockefellers et al) aim to utterly destroy and dismember the American economy. After the dust settles, the people are sorted out and culled, they will resurrect it. The companies will be run by and owned by foreigners and people will work for $6 or $7 an hour.

This is America's future.

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Point 1) The immediate short term issue is that the financial crisis, resulting in a credit crunch, loss of liquidity and confidence by consumers, and the very high price per barrel this Summer has resulted in a decline of sales of around 40% on the US auto market.

Point 2) is that those people who are buying cars are buying smaller, more fuel efficent cars. The Big Three unfortunately have specialised in heavy gas guzzling SUV's etc, and because of this they are losing market share to imports, whose product portfolio is more skewed to these types of vehicles. This is the fault of the management of Big Three, and of an administration who promotes the sale of big cars in order to support the oil industry. Note that Cafe standards don't apply to trucks, which has been redefined to include SUV's, people movers etc.

Point 3) is that this planet cannot afford to let Americans consume a grossly disproportionate amount of the dwindling oil reserves that are left. Yes peak oil is here, and I have noted the major oil companies are even talking about it publically at seminars expos etc. The US has to put in a plan to reduce the amount of oil it takes to move one person from A to B, and to reduce the number of people who need to go from A to B.

Reducing the amount of oil means smaller, lighter, more efficient cars. reducing the number of people using cars means better public transport infrastructure, better town planning, better working patterns (tele commuting, staggered working hours, etc)

There are many many ways to reduce oil consumption, but the one thing they have in common is that they work via the pocket book. Higher taxes on inefficient uses of energy is the way to go.

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Hey Toby,

Every American citizen is concerned about the loss of good jobs. It's sad when you give the impression Michael Moore isn't. He's been fighting with Detroit's front offices for decades. Their problems didn't start overnight. I bought five cars in my lifetime. The first four were two Lincolns, a Grand Prix and a Thunderbird. I bought on the high end because this was were Detroit made its profits and where a better effort to make decent cars was concentrated. This approach, of course, didn't stop me from having certain problems. I had an electrical problem with my Grand Prix I never resolved during the entire time I had the car. I now drive a Hyundai Elantra. I didn't come to this decision easily. I'm as American as any citizen and made the effort to by American. But, the utter arrogance of the Detroit brass forced me to abandon our car industry. I didn't leave them. They left me. My Elantra runs like a charm and I've never had a serious problem with it. Basically, it runs when I want it to run. Detroit's cars have never lived up to their hype. Michael Moore is all for saving jobs. He's just against handing over a wad of cash to the arrogant idiots who got us into all this mess. The same goes for Wall Street. There has to be some accountability. So far, no one wants to give the executives the heave-ho. I say an executive heave-ho option has to be a part of any serious bailout agreement. Otherwise, it's just throwing more hard-earned taxpayer money after bad. Michael Moore isn't the problem. Detroit's ignorant arrogance is. To suggest Mr. Moore isn't concerned about saving jobs isn't only incorrect. It's placing the blame where it doesn't belong. If you don't believe Michael's committed to the workers in Detroit, please review his 1989 award-winning documentary, "Roger & Me." I'm sure you'll want to revise and extend your remarks as a result. Mr. Moore isn't the problem. Ugly ignorant arrogance is.

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Saying "support the big 3" for the line-workers, is like saying "support the troops" in defense of the Iraq war. The line-workers neither design the cars, nor make company policy.

The Model T got 20 mpg in 1908. Some call that "an unfair comparison":

"The Model T didn't have ...airbags, reinforced safety cage, anti-lock brakes and traction control... electric windows, interior lights, air conditioning, a radio and CD player... didn't have a catalytic converter."
-Chrysler's Jason Vines

But these have little impact on mpg. Airbags?

"Air-conditioning makes barely any difference in the amount of gas you burn."
-ezinearticles

Catalytic converters were not used until 1976- since GM blocked them for 20 years.
-thedialygreen

What "enormous strides"?

"While official overall gas mileage of new U.S. passenger cars rose from about 14 miles per gallon in the late 1970s to a peak of 22 miles per gallon in 1987, it has since declined to 21 miles per gallon."

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"While official overall gas mileage of new U.S. passenger cars rose from about 14 miles per gallon in the late 1970s to a peak of 22 miles per gallon in 1987, it has since declined to 21 miles per gallon."
-sfgate

The VW Lupo got over 70 mpg, 10 years ago. Critics say "that's without air-conditioning". Ok, at 20% impact from ac, that's still 55+ mpg- nearly double the best American mpg's today.

Toyota's 2002 Eco Spirit got 100+ mpg.

The poor gas-mileage of american cars is indefensible, when american auto-makers have fought, tooth-and-lobbyist, against better mileage requirementss.

Perhaps Congress could insist that Ford use the money to market their 65 mpg diesel Econetic -- and change tax laws to promote it's adoption.

An industry with a massive infrastructure investment will not retooling willingly. Maybe the money should be used to retool, re-educate, and retire.

"CAFE [fuel-efficiency] standards were effective in increasing new car and truck fuel economy by 70 percent between 1975 and 1988. In 2000 alone, CAFE standards saved American consumers $92 billion, reduced oil use by 60 billion gallons of gasoline, and kept 720 million tons of global warming pollution out of our atmosphere."
-Union of Concerned Scientists

Saying the big 3 should get the money because Wall Street got money is like saying "Mommy, Joey got a new bike, so I wanna new bike". They are different situations. I bet people who have a problem with the auto bailout also had a problem with the Wall Street bailout.

Moore SUPPORTS saving the auto industry, and it's jobs. He's just saying "no BLANK check." Attach some conditions. How can a reasonable person object to that?

"Most improvements in auto technology in recent decades have been channeled into increased power, acceleration and size rather than fuel efficiency." That's probably true. Americans need to reflect on their appetites. Our cars and bellies are obese.

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Barlow's piece ranges from disingenuous to misleading. He cherry picks statistics to obscure the real failures of American automakers OVER TIME. But both Barlow and Moore ignore the basic issue: health coverage. Workers must have health coverage. The big three spends billions on it. That makes their products excessively expensive. The answer? Universal health care coverage for ALL Americans. All other Western industrial countries - and Japan - have some form or other of it. It's time to stop allowing the rapacious insurance and drug industries to strangle what is a human right.

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all I want is something to move me and mine from place to place without using gasoline...

something that doesn't rival the price of a house... houses can last for 100 years, your cars last maybe 2-3 years??? fair price for well made cars that pay people a living wage and benefits...

something that will start and run without leaving me on the side of the road waiting for AAA during the warranty period...

something that won't fold up like a squished pop can in a fender bender, knowing me and mine are going to walk away from said bender...

love, ellie

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Why are most Michiganders resentful fo the Big 3's CEO's and management..Because our State has been a Ghost town since the Last Big recessions of the '70's.
Had the Big 3 Big Wigs not waited until Japanese sales began kicking our asses to build smaller more fuel efficient cars. Had they not Left Michiganders like a Dead whore on the side of the Road once they got the ok to Bug out With NAFTA.
Had these Assholes concentrated on safety and alternative fuels instead of DVD players and Corinithian Leather...WE would BE the #1 Auto maker in the World. I won't even get into how they screwed all of US, by working as 'Pushers' for the Big Oil Corps and their Foreign masters...( Doctoral Dissertation On Foreign Policy )
So Do Michiganders Cry a tear for any of these CEO's NO. Would we like to see them and their predecessors face Prosecution for Industrial,thus Economic Treason..YES.
HOWEVER, We are also aware that these Workers and all the Workers these UAW support directly and indirectly are not only what made these Co's great but also Our State and Provided them with the opporuntiy to become Global entities.
Most Americans Seem to have a Blind spot regarding the last few Decades when it comes to the UAW. In the '80's Reagans War on the Unions (Middle Class)put the first cracks in the Floor. Unions- Not even the UAW are the Powerhouse of days gone by. In fact they have been making concessions every time the Mgt runs the Co's to 'E', Just so they could Squeeze a few more drops of blood out of the co's production of Gas Guzzling Lead Sleds (The SUV is nothing more than a Bonnneville or Electra 88 on a taller Chasis and bigger tires- Monstrosities).
the UAW was willing to make any Product the Big Brass ALLOWED the engineers to 'Create'. I have no doubt many engineers saw the writing on the wall too in the '70s and would have loved to work on something more revolutionary than a damn rear camera.
There is no need to find documentation of a conspiratorial relationship between the Big 3's top brass and the Oil Corps (Monarchies)...History is evidential enough, along with the Confession of One of their Top Drug Czar "Americans are Addicted to Oil" ...W should know he helped insert the Mainline into our viens through the Big 3. However his Master Dick has been at this for Decades.
Honestly with the response of many Americans to let the Big 3 go down, I spitefully wonder how many of those around the country rely on the Rust belts Great Lakes?- Global warming could be a real bitch for those land locked & coastal states . Or how about this, since the rest of America has shown their hatred for the Rust belt states for Decades, We petition Canada for citizenships. The Midwest IS the only manufacturing region in the country. We'll Take our 'Over paid' workers, Our factories and our universities and put them to work for the Canadians...then lets see how much these 'Pencil pushing 'States are able to compete on a Global market.
I would be willing to bet EVERY American has some connection to the Big 3, currently or in their family history.In fact every worker Now should be thanking the Unions for their 5 day work weeks, OSHA and the fact they are not working next to their 8 yr old son- not to mention fair wages, bennies, holidays (paid or not), healthcare and reirment funds...You would never have been offered such 'luxuries' had there been no Unionization. Funny no one ever mentions how Textiles revolutionized the Country, nor built the Middle Class..Because it Didn't!
Unions provide a floor to White collar workers..But it is made out of Glass Too. Over the last few Decades Corps have created Thousands of Cracks, my white collar friends and they are just waiting until the floor breaks away from under You too..your Salary is next to go.

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#1: Shelby is an idiot, m'kay?

#2: I own a Chevy Impala, bought brand new and paid for in full.

#3: You haven't been paying attention. EVEN foreign automakers are feeling the crunch. Down here in Alabama, we had a Kia dealer offering a FREE CAR with the purchase of an SUV. Therein lies the rub, my friend. Auto makers were catering to consumer demands led by auto industry advertisement for larger cars. When Bush told us to go spend money after 9/11, he meant "go buy an SUV so we can make money on oil."

#4: Engineers? Oh, I'm sure they're competent at their jobs, unfortunately THEY DO NOT SELECT WHAT TO SELL. They design cars that the suits find acceptable, and cars that wear out fast, drink a lot of gas, and take up a lot of space are what the suits have told them to make. Screw the engineers--it's not their gig. Trickle-down philosophy doesn't just (supposedly) operate on a political level but actually operates on a corporate one. Joe Schmoe UAW worker (Thanks Ohio! Thanks Michigan!) can be the best bleedin' riveter in two states, but HE doesn't have anything to do with what cars he makes either. I salute his hard work--but that's all. We're all busting our asses out here.

#5: I reiterate: car makers are now stuck with the SUV's and the PLANTS that MAKE them during a period of time when it is almost insanity to have been making them in the first place. (SOCCER MOMS, CONTRARY TO POPULAR BELIEF, DO NOT NEED SUV'S.)

It's their own fault for pushing bigger, more expensive SUV's and trucks. They have sewn the demand and they are now reaping a bitter crop.

I say: Let them eat it.

Maybe those "engineers" will get more satisfying positions developing Earth-friendly and innovative products instead of the same schlock we've been getting off the assembly lines for almost 30 years.

One more thing: NOBODY I know has an aunt in Boca flipping condos. Are you kidding me? Who can afford to do that?

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I really think so.

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Michael Moore didn't get one comment wrong in my opinion. This writer here taking Moore to task sounds tired and embedded in old, entrenched and lazy ideas.
Onward and upward with a new approach!
And if ANYBODY supports the working class, it's Moore.

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Toby, you obviously have not read much Moore has written or seen him talk as a guest on numerous talk shows or seen his documentaries. You wrote, "he's ignoring the great achievements of millions of its auto workers." Way wrong. Moore's own dad worked for the auto industry for 40 years. Take a look at Moore's website, or his recent article on the Big 3 bailout. Both are filled with admiration for the average auto worker. What he isn't enthralled with is the leadership of the Big 3. His position goes all the way back 20 years ago with his first documentary, "Roger". You really need to get a better factual basis on what you are writing about. You're WAY OFF BASE and as a result have zero credibility.

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I agree with about 99% of what you're saying. Good call, good call.

I do, however, think the Big 3 should eat it. We need a reboot--not just of particular banks or companies or CEO's... but of THINKING. We need to find a path out of the sickening mire of spiraling capitalism that sucks the life out of every worker--union or not, pencil pusher or labor. The differentiation of "us" and "them" really isn't applicable.

My "pencil pushing" husband is watching his fellow workers get fired literally every other week, and he works for a huge corporation. NO UNION. Are you kidding? Union? ZOMG.

The Unions cannot be protected right now from the corp suits that stuff white shirts with Leer jets and caviar on toast points. The Unions will have to be rebuilt--IMO--just like everything else. And this will take a huge push from ALL Americans from EVERY sector.

Don't say "us" and "them." We're all getting screwed with the same can of oil, homey.

It's been politicians' and executives' aim for 30 years to yank the rug out from under the unions. Well, they've done it. I could go into so many examples... but it's a moot point. Done is done. It's time to stick together and rebuild.

Believe me, the Bible Belt ain't any happier than the Rust Belt.

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I was so thinking what you wrote as I read this unbelievable article.

Somebody missed the lovely scenes of Roger and Me. Especially poignant were the workers that got fired a few days before Christmas.

Oh, did I mention my husband's work just laid off another slew of workers this week?

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The issue is whether American automobile makers should receive a 35 billion dollar bailout to save American jobs. Can anyone tell me what company produces a model which is totally manufactured in the US?

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Heah GM, you created my hometown and then you destroyed it. Flint is a disaster, thanks to you. I remember C. S. Mott, and I think he would be horrified as to what you did to Flint. Long ago the hand-writing was on the wall as to what you needed to do. But you didn't. I'll be eternally angry at you.

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As usual, Michael Moore knows what he talking about. The auto company Ceos are arrogant morons and should be given the boot. While I am usually not in favor of government running the businesses who produce our autos, in this case I think that would be a good idea.

After their first visit, an obscene display of arrogance and stupidity, the reponse was predictable. Throw the bums out!

This time they came in with what appeared to be a different agenda but noooo, they still insisted that 40 out of the 48 models that they would produce would be the same bloated, fuel guzzling ugly cars that look like pregnant roaches and are a danger to any other driver trying to get out of a parking lot next to them.

So, I say, yes to the govenment buying out these fools and letting the people who actually make the cars run the business. They know first hand what the country needs in a car so let them make them. And if they need any advice, refer them to Michael Moore.

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Chrysler is the smallest of the Big Three automakers, but it stands apart from its peers in another crucial respect. While General Motors and the Ford Motor Company are public corporations, Chrysler is controlled by one of the world’s richest and most secretive private investment companies.

That investment company is Cerberus Capital Management, which has used its wealth and deep connections in Washington to shape the debate over the foundering automakers to its advantage.

Whether its efforts will work is unclear. But if they fail Cerberus and its partners could lose their daring bets on Detroit. Without a bailout Cerberus could lose about $2 billion and suffer a stinging blow to its reputation. With one it might eventually profit from its troubled deals.

Last year, Cerberus and about 100 co-investors bought 80.1 percent of Chrysler for $7.4 billion from the German carmaker Daimler. It also bought a controlling stake in GMAC, the finance arm of General Motors. Since then Chrysler has eliminated more than 30,000 jobs and struggled to keep itself afloat while its sales have plummeted. Cerberus is pressing to have Chrysler merge with G.M., but G.M. has said a tie-up is off the table. Chrysler is asking the government for $7 billion to get through the next few months.

Cerberus, named after the mythical three-headed dog that guards the gates of Hades, has a fierce reputation on Wall Street. Many bankers and investors are reluctant to talk openly about the company, which is renowned, even feared, for its hard-nosed deal-making.

But Cerberus is also pursuing its interests aggressively in Washington, where some lawmakers have questioned why the government should assist the privately owned Chrysler. In addition to Mr. Snow, the firm’s chairman, Cerberus’s Washington hands include Dan Quayle, the former vice president, and Billy J. Cooper, who has worked as partner at the lobbying firm Patton Boggs.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/06/business/06chrysler.html

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The writer makes some points that are new to me, that might be right or wrong. But I'd like to point out a few points of disagreement:
1) I don't think Moore advocates letting the companies just die, and the workers with them; like David Olive of the Toronto Star, he can see the government taking over and being more responsible. People won't buy government built cars? They made jeeps in WWII and they're still popular, whoever the hell is making them now.
2) Why should the owners and CEO's be rewarded for their screw-ups and given more money? Will they be back next year with hat-in-hand again?
3) I don't think Moore gave unstamped approval of the bailout of Wall St. They're pulliing the same kinds of deals. They and the auto industry should be treated in the same way.
4) Unimportant, but I too grew up in Detroit with my dad working at Ford for 35 years; I've lived downtown for another 15 years later on.
I think writing Moore's ideas off as not having been well thought out is jumping to conclusions, at the very least!

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I will not attack your article, it is not worthy, but I will make a few straight points.
There is an attempt here to swing blame and distract from the real problems and that is dishonest.
The big three have more similarities than differences. They have all known for fifty years that oil would be getting more scarce and more expensive. They have all known about environmental damage caused by their products. They have all deliberately avoided making any competitive products with good mileage. Trying to say thirty miles per gallon is good mileage is fraud. This was a goal for mileage in 1978 and they should be ashamed to be trying (unsuccessfully) to market cars with less than sixty mpg in the year 2008.
They have deliberately held to antiquated designs and promulgated the idea that we Americans should just blindly and patriotically buy their products and ignore real changes going on in the outside world.
The leadership of all three should be fired. That means all of upper and middle management that cannot prove it has been butting heads for thirty years trying to effect real and radical design changes to help instead of keeping status quo selling the same old crap.
Their stocks should be bought out, reasonable consulting engineers should be brought in and radical but workable design changes in product should be forced through fast. Times and demand have changed, the market has changed, and they must adapt to survive.
It takes Detroit three times as long to go from design to production than the rest of the world. They hemorrhage money from the top down, their cars are sitting unsold on lots across the country as their dealers file bankruptcy, and they still want to appeal to nationalism to try to sell their old crap.
Moore was correct, he has a reasonable and economical plan that would protect more of the common working folks than anything you countered with just for the sake of criticism.
Wall street and the rape of the treasury to obscenely steal money from the taxpayers and give it away to reward fiscal crime is another matter, and should be met with outrage, prosecution and punishment.
The entire investment system should be sheared off at the ankles, debt should be canceled, prices should be reset at more reasonable levels, and tax rates for anyone making over a million dollars a year should be a lot higher than they are. Close all loopholes, enforce corporate tax collection, cap petroleum profits and you will balance the federal budget while having a surplus for emergencies.
Continuing the practices we have is self destructive.

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I agree, the ugly ignorant arrogance is at the heart of the problem ... the core of which is represented by all of our fellow Amercans ... the marketing garus of corporations that sell into the consummer market place don't use crystal balls to project the publics responses to the products they introduce to the public ... they infact spend significant portions of the sales budgets on research that analyzes the publics basic physcology where the underlying pavlovian hot buttons lie ... the ignorance and arrogance is us ... success of our society, survival, depends on the broader societies understanding of the issues that infact drive a sustainable future ... in aint any where to be found ... a very scary thing for those of us who look to the future with open eyes ...

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All the discussion around bailing out the Big Three has been from a microeconomic viewpoint - the blinders need to come off. If we view this issue in the larger context of what is happening overall in the US economy and US society - much of it unprecedented - one has to conclude that there just is no history for economic entities that manufacture only personal transportation vehicles. Why? Look at employment - not only are millions out of work, and millions more soon to be, but real wages are falling, and in fact many workers who still have jobs are seeing their wages or their work hours reduced. Look at debt - Americans are flat out of debt capacity. The economic growth of the past decade was largely fueled by debt - people used the equity in their homes to purchase flat screen TVs, vacations, refrigerators, educations and, yes, CARS. They're tapped out, struggling now to pay for this credit binge. Wait until the defaults on car loans and credit cards hit the fan. Look at housing. The irrational run-up in house values over the past decade was in no small part due to mortgages being made available to people who couldn't really afford to purchase their own home, driving up demand. We know where that led, and now, with tighter credit and falling real income, who can afford to purchase a home? Or a new car? I haven't heard any discussion about how much the new whiz-bang vehicles these companies are supposedly developing will cost, but you can bet one will have to forego an awfully lot of loaves of bread to put oneself into the driver's seat of one of these babies.
And consider global warming and peak oil. Even if every personal transportation vehicle on the road was completely powered by electricity, don't forget that the electricity has to be generated - by a power plant. And right now we don't have nearly the capability to generate all that electricity from green sources.
So what the government needs to do is to facilitate re-focusing the tremendous manufacturing capability of this country on what products we will need in the future - public transportation vehicles, alternative energy machinery and equipment, and so on. The world is changing, fewer and fewer people will be willing - or able - to own personal transportation vehicles. More and more are using public transportation, and joining cooperatives that provide personal vehicle sharing for those times when a car is needed. Most of the world resides in urban areas, where traffic is a nightmare already. Improved public transportation is a must, and as that happens, there will be a diminishing need for personal vehicles. The "auto industry" is in its death throes. These companies need to re-envision themselves, or they will fail, and a government bailout that does not force them to do this will only delay their demise.

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I was disappointed to read your article. It just seemed to me that you really don't like Michael Moore. Which is fine, if you don't like him. I certainly don't care who you like or don't like.

But why waste the space on AlerNet for this?

Don't waste my time anymore! Take it up with Michael and leave us to read good and interesting articles, please!

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This article is addressing the wrong question. It's addressing the question of "IS what's good for GM good for America?" It should be addressing the question of what should our legislators do today.

The Big Three have done a superb job of obfuscating the issue. They have consistently implied that all three would go down together. That's hogwash. You don't need to be a CEO to know that if one goes down, the other two will reap rewards. The demand for cars, American cars even, will not go down. So the other two will come up, they will be hiring more people, they will be buying more from their suppliers, and the "dip" will be minimal.

The secret to most issues is to ask the right questions. The Big Three CEOs know that if we ask the wrong questions, they won't have to worry about the answers.

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You equate bankruptcy with going out of business. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the Big 3 filed for bankruptcy they would do so under the reorganization provisions. The workers would continue to be paid and cars made. But a bankruptcy trustee would be in charge of the businesses, not the sorry management that got them to where they are now. A trustee could hire a new management team and far more quickly change course than existing management.

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Another factor not mentioned is that the auto industry has spent millions to lobby against environmental protection regulation, and would undoubtedly use bail out funds for this purpose--as have the banking industry.

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Right after WWII the car industry polled the American people and this is what the people told them. Give us cheap(to operate), economical and efficient autos without all of the bells and whistles. And, what did the later polls say? The same thing! And, what did the big three give them? Big gas guzzlers loaded with bells and whistles! Engineered cars breaking down boosts dealers profits. Parts were engineered to make it "just" past the warranty period of a year. Patents on improved carburators were bought and put on the shelf. Even the U.S. Dept. of Energy owns one! Improved battery technology was bought- and put on the shelf! Each and every time improvements came out, they were due to mandates from the government dictated by the people.
This is ALL about management decisions - not labor unions and wages. The foriegn auto makers were able to penetrate the market simply because people were not being given autos they had asked repeatedly for through polling done by the U.S. automakers.
The short of it is - in this case, the markets have spoken time and again but through hook and crook, the management has not given an inch.
Made in America legally means the cars have to have parts made here of only fifty-one percent. The auto industry had that rule made so they could outsource good paying jobs and get paid high bonuses, which they in turn gave a share of in the form of political contributions to the congress people and the executive branch - maybe even to judges. Notice that all of these "professional" people are not considered "middle class"? Duh?
All of these decisions were made by "management".
Volkswagen came to the U.S. early and opened up a plant. Most of the management came from GM. The German team was here to train the workers and management. They had to return after a few years or so and finally had to shutter the plant? Why? The German team explained to my friends family over dinner that the management was so bad and self-serving they literally had no choice. Bad parts were being placed back on the assembly line after the workers had removed them because - well - they were bad parts! They found a manager on the line who had no qualifications other than belonging to the same country club as the head manager. (For twenty years before that he had been a salesman for women's underwear.) The team came back to find this person in Quality Control!
Those workers? Those blue collar workers? They loved them! They did a great job!
Moore is right! Fire them!

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This author needs to buy a clue.


Comparing the quality of American Vehicles to Foreign Cars is not a justification by any stretch of imagination to bail these idiots out. Any gains this industry has made is only in response to lost market share due to inferior products--they are not innovative, they are reactive. And we are just seeing more of the same now.

Why would anyone bail out an industry that refuses to adapt, innovate or lead in their industry. And I mean REFUSES, not just miscalculates a changing market or is consistently a johnny come lately.

Who systematically sought to destroy the rail system in the USA? Who systematically fought any effort to improve safety? Who systematically derailed the efforts to limit emissions? Who systematically fought to stop any increases in CAFE standards? Who systematically fought efforts by California to implement limits on CO2? Who threw millions of dollars to ensure that this notion died a quick death and systematically thwarted the efforts to get a desirable electric car on the road? Who bought the only company who made a decent battery for use in cars and then proceeded to run around stating that the battery technology didn't exist to create a satisfactory car.

Who systematically insisted on cuts and sacrifices from their employee benefits packages year after year, threatening jobs cuts, while they continued to churn out pigs that nobody EVER wanted or bought and systematically offshored their production.

Who systematically fought technology that had been around since the 60's and earlier--FWD, antilock brakes, air bags, seat belts, etc.

Who makes better, more fuel efficient cars overseas than they do in their homeland?

If any other industry operated like the big 3, they have gone the way of blacksmiths long ago.


They lost market share, beginning in the 70's, due to inferior products. Plain and simple. Bailing them out now serves no one but their stockholders and executives. They have plainly stated they will NOT spend any of the money on their operations in the US. NONE. Not a penny.

Let 'em go. Cars won't stop being made in the USA. They will just be bought out by someone. And sadly, their employees will see serious wage and benefit cuts and enjoy the serfdom already experienced by every other blue collar worker in this country.

It is no fault of the worker, but the reality of capitalism is if you are employed by a prehistoric behemoth, eventually you will suffer along with them when it finally goes extinct.

PUT THE MONEY IN UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS AND THE GOVERNMENT PENSION PLAN INSURANCE.
F--k the big 3.

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I have bought and driven brand new Chrysler products from 1976 to 2005. Reasonable gas mileage for a small V-8 (Dodge Sedans) and V-6's (Mini Vans) and no problems in or out of warranty.

I currently drive a 2005 Malibu V-6 and I consistently get 28 miles per U.S. gallon in the city where I live and 34 mpg highway driving. Driving I-90 between Spokane and Seattle at the posted speed is a revelation as to how good this car is in every respect.

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And why this comment:

"Would you buy a car made by the government?"

They wouldn't be made by the "government" but by the same autoworkers the writer claims to praise. Who else would build them?

This writer is nothing but a shill for Big 3 management.

The root cause is the financial-military parasitism strangling the economy.

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Once upon a time, cars had a few gauges, to be replaced by idiot lights. We called them idiot lights because they alert the driver to a problem once it has happened, not before, and possibly, because maintenance responsibility is for most an unfamiliar concept.

There have been many warning signs about the eventual failure of US auto industry, and very bad management is a big part of it, from a societal as well as industrial and political stand point. These responses to MM article and this one are pretty informative, some insightful.

The financial sector bailout vs. the auto industry bailout just reflects the relative position and power of the industries inside the Beltway. Neither is deserved. Many in Congress balking at the auto industry handouts are hypocrites.

Well, back to my main point, the idiot lights have been on for a long time. The big 3 run their business to ensure year to year, quarter to quarter financial goals, not long term goals, either for their own sake or society's. What we are witnessing, again and again, is a drama wherein corporate capitalism drives itself into the ground or off a cliff, indicative of the ultimate future of all or most sociopathic enterprises like the modern corporation, and then pledges itself to minimalist reforms to get public money so that it may pursue its usual aims.

Unfortunately, this 34Billion is just a downpayment. There is surely more to come, because there is much more economic unravelling yet to come in 2009. 2008 was just the beginnning of the meltdown. Hate to tell ya.

Merry Christmas. Don't buy a car, or an XBox, get yourself a copy of "The Corporation" and watch it with your kids, then watch it again.

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Why the obsession with responding to Michael Moore? Why would one build a putatively serious analysis of a presumed serious issue around the sputtering of the Britney Spears of film documentarians? In brief, who really cares what Michael Moore thinks---about anything?

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So, Detroit makes better buggies than it did 10-20 years ago. And their whiffle trees are unbreakable. And the metals rims on their wooden tires don't dent and slide off when fording rocky streams. Well, good on 'em. Give 'em the cash.

It is astounding that every one of the commenters -- and the author of this article -- tacitly or explicitly defends an outmoded means of transport. Mr. Moore is clearly aware that the climate tipping point will arrive in short order, while our D-Day action point is slipping further and further away.

With the cultural geography of America, which we have designed specifically with the automobile in mind, it is not likely that the car will go away. And, given the number of livelihoods tied to it, it should not go away any time soon. But the motive technology must, and can, be exchanged immediately for something that has much, much less impact on the climate. Mr. Moore, bless his heart, proposes switching Detroit (and presumably all other car makers) to an electric line of trains, buses, trolleys, and cars. And, if Detroit won't do it, or if they take a foot-dragging incremental approach, buy the bastards out and install managers that will.

This week, Mr. Obama proposed a plan to give states money to begin building, retrofitting and repairing infrastructure. But, again, we are contemplating infrastructure primarily for the horse and buggy -- infrastructure from and for yesteryear and decidedly anti-future.

Alternatively, we could achieve both long and short term goals by dedicating at least half the stimulus money to rebuilding railroads, adding new trackage, stringing electric trolley lines in cities, installing millions of charging stations for electric cars, raising gas taxes so wind, solar and geothermal are profitable investments (or heavily subsidizing those energy sources) and retraining workers to build, manage, operate and repair an electricity-based transport system. This is what I chose to see in Mr. Moore's excellent post.

The only thing missing from Mr. Obama and every other "leader" now entering the stage is a call to create a long range development plan (economic, social and environmental) for the country, based on a collective vision, that will be the reference document to orient all our short term emergency decisions in one agreed-upon direction.

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Why not look at this handout as a subsidy .Like Toyota and all other Asian car mfg. have been receiving for years.

To level out the playing field,that's what this would do.Also all those people who buy foreign,do you think the Japanese bought Fords and Chevies back in the fifties and sixties when Japan was producing crappy cars. No way ,I was there in the sixties and I don't remember seeing an American vehicle on the streets. That's because they are LOyal to a fault with their manufacturers. Something this country is not. It costs to much .I have never owned a foreign car or truck and that amounts to some 25 vehicles so far.This is part of the Global economy we better keep in this country.

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You all make good points. and all the comments including the article have merit....... What does Ralph Nader say? He is more logical.
It is clear to me that banking and finance have the greatest priority in our culture, because the assets are not earned by good old hard work Most Americans want something for nothing. The big 3 as moronic as they are with their inferior products, are a solid marketing base that can not be allowed to fail. At least they could retool for mass transit like they did in WW 2 for war machines. They made a fortune in the 1940s. As far as Michael Moore is concerned, He is a positive counter force to the oppressive Right wing coopertocracy that rules American business, He would have more credibility if he got more serious and distance himself from that entertainment flavored mentality.

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Billions to "bailout" capitalists does not save capitalism, destroys workers!

U.S. capitalism has been in decline since the 1970s. Wars for oil profit, military industrial profit was not enough. Cutting taxes for the weathy, resulting in destruction of public services, was not enough. The hundreds of billion given to the perpetrators of the banking collapse will not solve the problems of a privatized banking system. Now after decades of mis-managing the auto industry (with the union bosses in full collaboration), after destroying the living standards of workers, wants more more billions.

The time to end this insanity of forever trying to "bail out" the bankrupt system of capitalism is now.
The devastation done by capitalists to people and planet cannot be "fixed"! Capitalism must end for the survival of humanity.

For a socialist perspective on this latest money "fix" for capitalists follow the link below:

Senate hearing sets the stage for the impoverishment of US autoworkers
By Jerry White, 5 December 2008
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/dec2008/auto-d05.shtml

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Why did the Auto Worker's Union oppose raising mpg levels for so many years? They should have been pushing for these things along with other people.

I think Michael Moore has it right about the CEO's. I didn't see a word in his article that spoke against the Unions or against the mainstream worker. He is just saying that the people in charge of these companies should no longer be in charge and that other ideas from less self-interested people be brought forward to change the industry.

It would be great to have these companies focus on Buses, street cars and other mass transit for a few years...that would keep the jobs and bring this country back into being one where people will have a variety of choices of just how to get from one place to another.

Then let them go back and bring out those plans for the Electric car which are in some hidden safe somewhere. Everyone who ever leased and drove them were in love with them and many cried when the company called them back to grind them up and get rid of them because they had thought no one would buy them...

Michael Moore has more thoughts in his head which are of value than most of those Ph'Ds out there running so much of this world.

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Obviously this guy just read the first part and didn't bother to notice that Moore had some excellent ideas which would preserve the jobs of UAW workers. If Congress proceeds with their bail out, just you wait and see what happens to the union and their family-wage jobs!
They'd be a lot better off with Moore dictating their fates.

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To the last post: No, you sir are a blinkered fool'. This article is very accurate. I too was surprised by Michael Moore's comments. The big 3 have been making very good cars and up until now they have given the customer what they have asked for. I agree we need more environmentally friendly cars. I can't believe the ignorance out there about the car-making business. Yes, the CEO's for the past 20 years have been stupid in that they destroyed their own market by eliminating jobs and outsourcing...to truly save the company, the jobs need to come back. In regards to some of these posts, if this is the left speaking, I guess stupidity is not just reserved for the right. I support all American jobs, even those held by some of you idiots.

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Moore is more right than wrong. But he greatly overstates; that's his hallmark. As I just wrote to Obama: http://www.change.gov/yourvision

I'm certain you are aware of Michael Moore's thoughts about the Big 3. A version of his ideas would dovetail nicely with P-E Obama's economy recovery plan. Surely, though we must not allow the auto industry to founder, the plans presented by the auto company CEOs is purely more-of-the-same. They have gotten it all wrong, again.
Use the money we must give to the industry to accomplish some of P-E Obamas goals. Follow FDR's model for recovery! Do not let "Detroit" continue their corrosive policies. And, please, make it clear that labor is NOT the problem; the problem is the greed of the already powerful!
P-E Obama, and his economic team would also gratly benefit from studying the work and current thoughts of David Korten.
I look forward with great enthusiasm to The Change We Can Believe In.

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It seems to me that renovating the highways and the auto industry is the wrong solution for America. Trains and public transport, not trucks and autos, will be the future of transportation as the oil shortage progresses. By the time the highways are rebuilt and the auto industry is healthy again, we may be seeing $200/bbl oil and $8 gasoline. We should spend the infrastructure investment on a world-class public transportation system instead.

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my experience, is an interesting commentator on the American experience, and other issues. His films have heen very useful and informative. But he tends to be hyperbolic...over the top in many of his opinions. If he's so disappointed about his 4 year old Chrysler, why doesn't he buy a Toyota Avalon? He surely can afford it!

Plus, when he talked about his Chrysler car being set on Mercedes axles, giving him a smooth ride, he didn't know anything. The smooth ride is because of the suspension, not the axles!

Plus, he was born and raised in Flint, Michigan, the home of a giant Buick plant, which could be closed, absent the loan GM is requesting. Mr. Moore, where is your mind?

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The millions of auto workers you defend don't shape policy. FDR required the auto makers to build trains, not cars, during the war.

Moore is longer on good suggestions than on his criticism of the auto makers. Your article, Sir, is more criticism of Moore than counter-argument.

So, what's your point?

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There are far too many opinions and suggestions coming from too many directions to count, so I'll not be adding my own to the list. I would, however, like to point out that there are some American car companies who are manufacturing, and/or converting to old cars, to run on alternative fuels who might be brought into the discussion about "How to save Detroit's car industry."

Michael Moore is not the only celebrity addressing the car industry dilemma. Neil Young has put his money, time and energy into making progress in that arena. Rather than repeat myself on this subject, please refer to the article I pulled from Huffington and posted on my blog for a taste of his ideas:

How to save a major automobile company

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I saw Moore on Olbermann and understand his position, but I agree with yours, too. However, I think there's a way out of this. A hybrid joint venture by the auto industry and the public. First, pass emergency legislation to allow the U.S. to become a receiver in a Chapter 11 bankruptcy. The receiver would then put TARP type monies into funds for (1) giving Big Three employees work at infrastructural jobs or paying extended unemployment benefits, as appropriate to each case, and (2) honoring automobile warranties by reimbursing a network of garages or repair facilities overseen by Bill Richardson. (The new cabinet will be a genuine working cabinet, unlike the crony cabinet of GWB, which had nothing much to do, oversight being out of the question.)

As one non-professional pundit observed, if we solve this country's healthcare mess, unemployment for any extended length of time would not be so onerous on the working classes. This includes anyone not currently covered. A single payer type of healthcare such as Moore, Sen. Clinton, and others have proposed -- more appropriate now than when Ms. Clinton proposed it in the '90s -- will guarantee that families trying to survive on little more than what O.J. gets for a meal budget (about 75 cents for each of three squares) would prevent families having to face a choice between eating or getting treatment to survive.

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My next car will be electric. Period. Whoever makes it, gets my business.

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from the author of a moronic novel.

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Yes this is a serious issue, I thought Moore was okay on this, he uses the grabber of humor, but he supports the big three loans, just with strings attached, as all these bail outs should have had.
There seems to be quite the double standard in action here, Bankers jobs get tons of cash no questions asked, but jobs for middle class workers, boy there's a ton of questions, and maybe no cash.
it's the topic of my latest cartoon, see it on my website now.. www.whatnowtoons.com

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While probably 90% of the readers here have been driving foreign cars I have only strayed twice, have owned a Toyota Camry and another time a Mitsubishi Cordia. I found neither car's quality to exceed that of an American car and found the ergonomics, comfort and engineering to be below that of a typical American car.
I have gotten 200,000 miles out of a 1987 V8 Buick station wagon which although not abused was not driven with kid gloves on either and it was still running well when I traded it in. I currently own an 09 Pontiac G8 GT with which I have gotten 26 MPG on the highway and this car has a 361 HP 6.0L V8 in it which was made here. I also have a 95 V8 Buick with 132,000 miles on it which does not burn a drop of oil and runs like new.
I wonder how many of these people writing negative letters about American cars have bothered to own one lately. I will never buy a foreign car again, especially in the light of this near collapse of American car companies because of a false perception that foreign is better, nothing could be further from the truth. The reason the American car companies have a bad rep is because of regulations 20 years ago which forced them to concentrate on fuel efficiency rather than quality, they were forced to do something far too fast which they were not prepared to do and again the government proposes to do the same with an unfair conditional bailout. I am far from being a conservative but I say let the people decide what they want to drive, let the manufacturers build what they want to build and for all you foreign car snobs: Wake up you have great cars being built here in the good ol' US of A.

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...at exactly what point the USA became a Central American banana republic?

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The Big-3 are the last significant machine-tool manufacturing resource left in the country. They can manufacture light rail and wind turbines in thier facilities and could play a pivotal role in the rapid conservion of our energy usage to green generated electricity. Want to make them economicly viable while cars sales are down? Give them some of those contracts. It is curious that the (multinational..yes foreign banks are getting bailout money) are getting 8 TRILLION with no spanking, and the last major manufacturers in the U.S. is getting a mass media chastisement for 34 BILLION. And just when they are set to introduce practical extended range EV vehicles that would dovetail nicely with an retooling to use electricity instead of oil for energy consumption in tranportation and heating.

Something is very wrong with that picture.

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and I can tell you that Ford makes great vehicles, period. Also, you can say whatever you want about the UAW, they are the primary problem with the Big Three right now. If they do not become comparable to what the Japanese plants pay right now then they are in serious danger of putting their companies out of business and their jobs and benefits gone totally, all because they do not want to budge an inch.

I like labor unions, I just think they need to be competitive to keep their job security. The main reason Ford was profitable before the credit cruch was because they had already renegociated the UAW contracts.

Unless the UAW can force every car company in the world to meet their criteria then they will have to adapt to every other car company in the world instead, or they and the car companies that support them will go the way of the dodo.

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His dad was a career auto worker, and he is the former long-time editor of the Detroit Free Press.

There's not a lot he doesn't know about the effect of the auto industry on the state of Michigan, and the nation.

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hi
interesting points re the reality of the us auto industry, as an australian resident, also because our assembling industry is so linked to GM and Ford.
it frustrates me that we haven't seen much progress on hybrid utes, vans or trucks as yet, when in terms of miles travelled, that could have huge impact.
it also seems like any improvements in bottom line for these companies depend on the success in getting a working, universal health care funding system in place for Americans
cheers
Rob Lake
Sydney

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I agree that Moore's article was cavalier, especially with his irrelevant and pandering reference to owning a lemon. I've own one, and I know it can be discouraging, but Moore's lemon is not a scientific sample. It re-inforces the canard that Detroit cannot build a good car and dovetails with reactionary assertions that the problem is "union work rules" or the alleged inability to fire a poor employee.
Moore says "[t]he Big Three are, from this point forward, to build only cars that are not primarily dependent on oil," as if conversion to a green America can be done instantaniously. Given the current infrastructure of suburbs and freeways, current model vehicles won’t vanish in a day. A bridge loan is essential to make sure those auto factories and their workers are around to build green cars and wind turbins as soon as practically feasible. Rusting factories and a scattered workforce will build nothing.
What is destressing is how slow so many of the commenters are to see these connections. Sure, Moore has written and done a lot of good things about autoworkers and I'll forgive him for this, but nobody bats a thousand, and this one misses by a mile, especially to a retired autoworker like me. To learn more about life on the assembly line, see www.autoplant.info.

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He assumes coporate welfare is an acceptable policy,which is not shared by socialists.

Is he aware of Chrysler owner Cerebeus lobby?

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The problem is not the workers in the assembly plants. After all, they don't get a voice in what they build. It's the corporate "brain" trust who decide to ignore the compelling reasons to move toward hybrid or electric technology even if it is not going to return on the investment until some time in the not so distant future. (As if anything the Big 3 have done lately has returned value for the investment anyway.) Chrysler was here back in Reagan's day getting bailed out. Well, they're baaack! And as sure as water runs downhill, they will all be back soon asking for more. I say give the corporate management their pink slips. Find competent, innovative people to run the remains of these companies, using the workers they already have. I bet this can be turned around -- if they really want to revive these companies, not just enrich themselves.

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When the Japanese started making inroads in the Us markets 30 years ago, the big 3 convinced Regan to limit Japanese import, so much for free trade. When NAFTA was formed, the big three were the first to head south screaming free trade. When the British Auto industry went belly up, the big 3 were the first vultures on the ground to pick up the pieces. That is known as the free market, you live by it, you die by it.

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The biggest problem facing the Big Three is that they’re like the beautiful girl in the teen movie who’s hidden behind the glasses and the thick braces. Nobody looks at them. Despite their many successes, most of us stopped shopping American, even considering American, a long time ago.

And what was the reason for that? Being late to the mpg game. We've all heard the stories about guys who came up with the better mpg car, the hybrid car, etc. whose ideas were bought up by the auto industry and never developed.

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Michael Moore isn't about destroying the last vestage of industry in the US; he's about socializing the industry. I think that could be a good thing. But, the Republican controlled congress will never go for it. BTW it will still be a Republican Controlled Congress in 2009! They just have a way of asserting themselves and getting thier way.

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Part of the problem here is bad propaganda (posing as information) from both the MSM and the Liberal alternative media. One hates Labor, and the other hates cars. Even liberal Progressives seem caught up in this insane bashing of our last major manufacturing industry with livable wage jobs (until recently, and not $70/hr. but $26/hr!). This contigency wants government to dictate car design regardless of the consumer interests, though it may be nice to have some of the high mpg. vehicals available in Europe where high gas prices create that market there. Gas is now heading to a buck 50 a gallon and lower, so, except for a commodity market anomaly, our vehical design and performance is pretty much what the consumers demand. As for quality, despite unfair globalist free market Labor competition with subsidized healthcare costs amounting to up to $1500 extra per car, our quality is as good or better than the eqivalent cost foreign cars.(note MT car of the year awards!) The issue, of course, is the Neo-con/Blue Dog created banking credit crisis and high unemployment, not our cars or even their managers. To get this so obviously wrong is to be not only reactionary and ignorant, but a threat to our economic survival as a nation. Even if one desires to provide subsidies with incentives for particular technologies and design, apart from market forces, one needs to have a professional level of understanding of both the technology and the market. I don't hear even an amateur level of understanding form these arrogant self-centered critics, let alone a present tense practical awareness. Michael we might forgive for his emotional superficialities, given his other good work and personal ties to the industry. Not so the others.

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Michael Moore's Advice for the Auto Industry Is Far Too Cavalier for Such a Serious Issue


...and the kool-aide that that these poor, suffering executives want us all to drink is contaminated with Mercury...get it? Mercury.

dboy

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Michael Moore is focusing on the auto industry, which keeps his neck of the woods financed. He ain't really wrong about what he says, but fixing the auto industry is just the beginning. As we retool the auto industry to make WAY LESS cars and WAY MORE buses/trains & trollies, lots of other folks should retool, rethink, and rearrange their operations.
The electric companies need to decentralise and prepare for lower consumption, which we are all gonna hafta do. Walmart should begin to downsize just like everyone else, and people need to spend more time fulfilling their own needs without some commercial interest out there to fix the roof, mow the lawn, paint the house, etc. We gotta get back to doing for ourselves. Then our meager paycheck might seem good enough. We just gotta learn to live simpler lives, with lower consumption. Maybe then we could begin to remember what is really important.

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We should lend the car industry billions of dollars so they can continue making mediocre bland cars that don't hold any value and few people want to purchase??

Retooling the industry to deliver safer, longer lasting cars using new technology to get our transit system off foreign oil is too cavalier??

Ps...The engineers and factory workers can only produce a product as good as it's parts will allow; If the parts suck, or are designed to fail after time, how good can that product be? The proof is in the resale price of these units 2-3-5 and even 10 years out. (When is the last time you saw a K-car on the road?)

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This is not about cars, it's about Jobs,
and American people, hundreds of thousands,
and the rippling effect that will happen if these corporations go under; it's about the economy.
The truth is, letting the auto companies fail will do far more damage to our economy than it would have done to let those banks fail! But bankers run this country, or rather
the corrupt federal Reserve Board.

People need to take a big step back and realize what an opportunity this is to MAKE the auto companies get in line, make GM bring back the electrical car, raise fuel standards,
and keep American jobs in our country and begin to re-create and expand our industrial base! It is living on the Federal Reserve system of credit that has bankrupted the Middle class and devastated the poor! They use their practice of manipulating money, which is too long to explain,to enslave us all. But let me say this:
Inflation is not the price of things going up, but the value of the dollar going down due to
the FED printing up its worthless, unbacked paper money, which they constantly do, out of all proportion to the GPD, thus using this new money to suck the value out of the rest of the money supply...The first person getting new money gets its full value, but when it enters circulation, suddenly there's more money chasing less good, and the value of the dollar goes down--more of a thing you have (even if it's money, when that money is not backed by real wealth like gold), the less it's worth!

This is inflation, and inflation is the hidden tax through which bankers transfer wealth continually upwards into their hands by stealing it from us through inflation, income tax, etc. But iflation is the invisible mechanism few see. It's hard to understand, until someone explains it to you.

We must re-take our ability to print solid, silver-backed money! Gold is too easily cornered by the same entrenched wealthy powers. We need a currency that is Constitutional, printed solely for the means of exchanging goods, and get rid of the FED and fractional reserve banking!

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Consumer Reports: Honda makes the best cars: "Foreign cares rate highly. Detroit car companies fare poorly in magazine's annual Automaker Report Cards."

It really has nothing to do with whether or not American workers are hard working good people, etc. Honda makes cars in Indiana and Ford makes cars in Mexico. Workers don't get to use skills and creativity, and it's designed that way. They want labor to be replaceable, so they make the assembly-line jobs as low-skilled as they can make them.

The question is in the business decisions made my executives. GM and Ford over-produced SUVs while Honda and Toyota made popular small cars and hybrids. Better business decisions.

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are not well addressed by piecemeal solutions.

Our problem here is how the US defines capitalism.

First, we require that for profit corporations make profit taking their top priority. Minority shareholders can sue management, demanding more greed and less long term planning. This is why Henry Ford's successful business model was abandoned in the 1920's, and why Ben and Jerry were forced to sell "Ben and Jerry's."

Second, the first problem is made worse by an under-regulated, under-taxed (when it's taxed at all) stock market. This ensures that most shareholders will be speculators out for a quick buck, with no interest in the long term well being of the company.

Third and fourth, our lack of national health care and unilateral renunciation of tariffs (I have been waiting for **decades** for someone to explain to me why protectionism is a bad thing -- still nothing) put our industries at a perpetual disadvantage.

Foreign companies are eating our lunch because foreign governments have done a better job of defining the rules of the game for capitalism. Any solution that fails to address any of these four points is no solution at all.

(Speaking of systemic problems: Alternet needs to fix its website. I had to retype the whole thing because they won't let me stay signed in even when I'm typing in their %$^& comment field. And don't get me started on the "expand all threads" dance. Grrr.)

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Michael Moore has the best idea, get rid of the CEO's who have led the unhappy march of automobiles through the years which are bad for people (unreliable and poorly built), bad for environment (gas guzzling), bad for public mass transportation, and a shameful waste of raw materials.

I wonder if anyone has thought it odd that the banks were at the public welfare office right away and got their bailout. They are still laying off their employees and no one mentions if those employees even have retirement funds. Banks don't allow unions.

The auto industry also has employees and at least we get to hear about them. They have unions. So, if the auto corporations become realistic and humble providing transportation that we the people want, they may survive.

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Someone had to finally say it and it might as well be Michael Moore. Yes of course the auto industry has done some amazing things in the past, but the arrogance and the greed by the three CEO's in the last decade is quite unbelievable. They are directly responsible for this disaster and for the downfall of the industry and possible unemployment of many hard working people. It is about time that the people in Detroit and other places where American cars are made become more pro-active and stand up and kick these people out. It is unbelievable how the Big 3 kept manufacturing the same product over and over again with absolutely no idea or respect for the future or for the people working for them. The union leaders have some responsibility for this disaster as well by wanting the same or more of the same. They deserve to be kicked out as well as they neglected to look into the future.

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Michael Moore's tirade again the Big Three was outrageous and without foundation. Doesn't he realize that three million blue-collar workers will be put out on the street? Doesn't he realize the Big Three's problems are not of their own making?

We must save the Big Three to prevent a recession from becoming a depression.

Many Republicans in Congress are erroneously blaming GM, Ford, and Chrysler management and labor for the loss of auto sales. Many of these Republican legislators are saying, “let them go bankrupt.”

If you want a world depression, that is the quickest way to get one.

The problem is not the Big Three. The problem is not management. The problem is not labor and unions. The problem is not poor autos. The problem is not expensive autos. The problem is not health care. The problem is not retiree benefits. The problem is not gas guzzlers. GM has 20 models of autos that get over 30 mpg on the highway.

American-made autos are now on par with foreign made autos when it comes to dependability and gas mileage.

The Big Three has become the scapegoat for a failed Republican trickle-down economic policy and for a failed Republican deregulation policy.

The downward economic spiral started with President Bush's ill-conceived trillion dollar tax cut for the richest 3% of our citizens. When Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill told President Bush and Vice-President Cheney that we could not afford a trillion dollar tax cut, Vice-President Cheney responded, “We won the midterms—it’s our due.”

The National Debt, now $10.68 trillion, is a debt of $35,000 for every living American. The National Debt is the 6000 pound Republican elephant. More than 90% of the National Debt was accumulated under Republican presidents!

During the past 8 years, the National Debt increased from $5.7 trillion to $10.68 trillion. By January 20, the debt will be near $11 trillion since the debt is increasing by $3.86 billion a day. Interest on the National Debt is now more than $500 billion a year!

The Wall Street debacle and the $700 billion bailout has undermined the confidence of the American people so much that they are afraid to buy autos and homes. Credit card companies are reducing credit lines as quickly as they are paid off (personal experience).

Loans for autos have dried up.

Thomas Jefferson, in 1816, said it best, “I place public debt as the greatest of the dangers to be feared. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt."

The National Debt is also my greatest fear, however, the loss of Chrysler, Ford, and GM would be so cataclysmic to our economy (and the world’s economy) that a loan (even if we have to borrow the money) or, preferably, a loan guarantee is absolutely essential.

Fifteen thousand auto dealers with tens of thousands of mechanics would go out of business. Thousands of auto suppliers would go out of business. Tens of thousands of bankruptcies would result. Mortgage companies and credit card companies would go bankrupt or would come back to the government for another bailout.

Without competition, prices of foreign-made and American-made-foreign cars will increase.

In 1981, Chrysler was saved by a government loan guarantee of $1.5 billion. Chrysler paid back the $1.5 billion to their lenders and the U.S. Government pocketed $331 million of Chrysler money, quite a return for a guarantee written on a piece of paper. No taxpayer money was actually loaned to Chrysler.

To help pay for the “bailout” of Wall Street and a loan or loan guarantee to the Big Three, the one trillion dollar tax cut for the richest 3% should be rescinded as soon as President-elect Obama takes office.

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We need management that militates against the super hierarchical thinking that has promoted structural incompetence in many workplaces. The prevailing model of management we use needs to be more democratic and more inclusive. What I have observed throughout my working life is that managers and administrators practice hubris and pretension as core values. Many managers appear to have a tendency toward superciliousness; they display multiple vanities, the false claim of their infallibility being one of those vanities. They also do not appear to hold themselves to the same behavior standard as they do for the workers. People like this have no regard for others, and their egos cause them to have a learning disability, a serious problem with receptive language. They either cannot or refuse to receive the ideas of those who are actually doing the core work of the business; they appear self-serving and have great difficulty accepting any innovation that might improve performance (in either the products they manufacture or the processes used in manufacturing), and they appear to have trouble giving credit and appropriate reward to those who create a particular innovation. The concept of encouraging others for their effort is alien to them, unless their position is threatened; then they suddenly shift to a bogus "we're all in this together" mentality.

This issue is critical because it apparently has affected the automotive and financial industries to the point where some are super-compensated for failure, where over-confidence, arrogant assumption, and greed have corrupted the culture to the point where altruism is mocked, voluntary service is derided, innovation is suppressed, and the honest analysis of performance is discredited. In this kind of culture, people are afraid to tell the truth because they fear their honesty will anger someone in management, which might lead to termination of their employment. In this kind of culture, workers often don't bother to share their ideas because they have correctly assumed that no one in management will listen to them anyway.

Unfortunately, these issues affect not only the automotive and financial worlds; they also impact the manner in which school districts operate. For example, the aforementioned hubris and pretension sometimes appear to prevent school district administrators from applying standards for professional development and excellence to themselves; instead, they focus on intimidating teachers by questioning and challenging teacher education, knowledge, and experience. This has led to the creation of an administrative culture that sets itself and the individuals within it above all others, thereby impeding the flow of ideas whereby the district might be improved. It has created a type of blindness that prevents administrators from engaging in team building, from identifying and nurturing talent, and developing imaginative solutions to educational problems. Consequently, there has not been a serious conversation, much less a debate, about how to proceed in many school districts because the administrative culture does not support the concept of having all stakeholders at the table when it comes to improving our schools.

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protect executive jobs. Your undertaking is fairly transparent.

Agreed Detroit has not been playing on the same playing field as others. Mercedes never produces an automobile until a sufficient down payment has been made. They have no medical care expenses. The government provides retirement. If nobody puts down a deposit for a Mercedes next year the employees just stay home and draw their unemployment. Mercedes turns the lights off so they won't have to pay the light bill. Its not quite that simple but it nearly is.

But American industry wanted their employees tied to them. They wanted them dependent. They piggy backed the medical monopoly onto their business. That is the reason the republicans keep telling you the lie that Social Security was never meant to be a retirement. They like a little slavery. They want you dependent. They want you to kiss. Lets see a little obedience.

If the playing field is not level it is because they made it that way. Its what they wanted. But, they got tricked. This whole scheme was devised when they controlled 98% of the United States market. At that time the world market was less than half that of the U. S. market. They had a monopoly. But they lost their monopoly. They are still pretending that they are monopolists. Its not working.

In 1958 the Eisenhower depression finished off the job that 1929 had started. It was world wide depression. Germany lost all of her car companies but two. The federal government decided to save two more. They had the banks tell BMW what to build. They had Mercedes fix Audi-DKW. Do you think that they got to keep their executives?

American business, American automobile business, has no loyaloty to their workers. Because of this you will notice that the workers have no loyalty to business. How normal. Toyota is assembled in the US. Lexus is assembled in Japan. They save the cream for Japan. Its that way around most of the world except here.

If the executive suite had been trying to employ U S citizens, we might find room for sympathy. General Motors does 65% of their business outside of North America. Do we know the financial health of the 65%? Does congress know this? Does the CIA know this? If the CIA did would the Bush administration let it be known? I'm not certain that the whole of GM is suffering as bad as the north american division. Some years back Opel transfered in several billion and saved the General.

Rhetorical question. Where does General motors sell the biggest number of Buicks? Its in China by a margin of two to one. Do we have any idea how much money General Motors is sitting on in China? Would the Chinese government tell us if we asked? Would the General tell us? For that matter is the General starving their north american division?

People, for instance Michael Moore, say Detroit doesn't build reliable cars. If they do it is so recent that they have no reputation for it. General Motors has been operating NUMMI in Fremont california for 30 years. Every single car that came out of NUMMI has been extraordinarily reliable. They can build reliable. They know how. They just don't care enough. I own a NUMMI Pontiac Vibe. It has 167,000 relatively trouble free miles. I couldn't honestly tell anybody to buy any other General Motors product. Nobody can vouch for their reliability. All parts, except body parts, of the Vibe are interchangeable with the Toyota Matrix. They come down the same assembly line. You shouldn't have to know that much about cars to be able to get reliable. Of course I bought the Pontiac because it was cheaper than the Toyota. The General Motors name had destroyed its resale. Now nobody will give me anything like what it is worth. I just keep it and use it.

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. . . seems to be to offer half-baked apologies for the Big Three's incompetence.

Moore never argued for cars to be "made by the government." Quite the contrary, as anyone who read his piece yesterday would understand. The government (that is, you and me) would own the companies, not make the cars. Just as GM's stockholders do not now make their cars.

I agree that it's outrageous that the Wall Street crooks and gamblers are getting 700 billion dollars of our money. They shouldn't get one more penny, and all of what they have already received should be taken back. That, however, has nothing to do with bailing out (or not bailing out) the car companies.

The CEOs and other "management" officers of the Big Three have demonstrated gross incompenence. They should be fired, and the companies should be taken over by the government to protect jobs and so that the companies can finally start working for the benefit of the American people.

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The writer goes after Moore stating he has no idea what he is talking about, and that is not the case. Moore understands the auto worker better than anyone other than the worker him/herself. The worker has kept what is left of the auto industry alive as management has gutted their lives, benefits, and jobs. All those in charge should be fired and their assets seized for their stupidity and greed--Who deserves $21 million a year while the company they run goes down the toilet? Moore has made it his job to put the spotlight on the auto industries lies and deceit for years-- He is about the regular blue collar worker. He is about as down to earth, one of US, as anyone can get. All Big 3 need to be nationalized, put into the hands of the workers and the Union and made to run correctly. Hell, even the UAW has gone on record against a bailout.

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still doesn't address the fact the these large corporations could not keep their companies afloat, let alone turn a profit. Their companies failed.

My parents owned a pub when I was a teenager. It was a great place to work as a kid, it was a good family run business. But at a certain point in time a number of factors colluded to reduce the viability of the business. It was heartbreaking to close that place, but it had to be done. My step dad and mom had to get jobs again, I went off to the military. The town survived without a pub for a few years.

Now I recognize the scale of the issue is different here but the principle is the same. It is bad business to keep a business afloat when it is not capable to keep going on its own. No matter how great the product, how devoted the work force, how much national pride may be hurt it is bad practice to bail out companies. We are seeing that the banking bailout was largely a give away of billions of our tax dollars, there is every indication that a bail out of the car companies will be the same. Workers will be forced to take pay cuts, nothing will change re how the companies are run and they will fail again and the workers will lose their jobs in any event. The CEOs offering to draw a yearly salary of $1 is absurd and offensive.

My fellow Americans, we are in deep trouble and we have to face up to a number of facts, among them is the fact that we must rebuild our economy practically from the bottom up. It will be painful and difficult, but then anything that is worth its efforts usually is...

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Although my Fords have evidently fared better than Michael's Chryslers, I agree with him.

Plus, if the auto makers go under, that tidily disposes of one of the strongest unions in the country.

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The author notes several items that would seem to indicate that American car manufacturers are making better and more efficient cars than most people think, but there is more than one way of being incompetent. The one that really stands out is that I did not know any of these facts. Are we to believe that Japanese companies know how to market better to Americans than Americans? And if so why?

Why do I not see any of these efficient American cars on the road? Could it be that they only make these high efficiency models for the European market? I suspect this is the case, because when I travel in Europe I see all kinds of tiny efficient cars, and some of those even have American brands on them, but I never see those models when I come back to the US.

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What I don't get is why are we -- the US public and taxpayers, via the federal government -- the lenders of last resort?

I.e., why can't the auto makers borrow whatever money they may need through more conventional capitalist means, such as selling corporate bonds in the open market?

The government doesn't have the money to begin with, and would just have to borrow it from someone else anyway in order to hand it over to the auto makers, should this bailout/bridge loan/whatever plan go through.

IOW, the money has to come from somewhere, and I don't understand why it wouldn't be better to leave out the middleman -- the government -- and just put the people with the money to lend in direct contact with the companies which want to borrow it.

Yes, I realize that because of the risk involved the companies may have to offer a high interest rate in order to scare up the cash from the lenders, but at least then it's voluntary on both sides of the deal. Sheesh, if I was going to get credit card type interest rates of ~20-25%, I might even be tempted to loan GM $100 of my own money.

I don't care in the least about the MM vs. Barlow debate. Both make valid points (in amidst all the hyperbole), and it would seem that the market would more or less sort out the various weightings of all the different relevant factors in arriving at what interest rate would be required to get people to lend the money.

I mean, companies such as Exxon are sitting on huge piles of cash resulting from the big run up in oil and gas prices the last few years, and could conceivably lend this sort of money themselves. Minus their debt, they alone have $28+ billion in cash, according to finance.yahoo.com. Seeing as how it would seem they have a vested interest in making sure there are plenty of cars on the road out into the future needing what they sell, I don't see why they couldn't get together with the others constituting Big Oil and do this themselves using just the interest they're earning on their cash. I mean, just to cite one way it would seem it could easily be done without government involvement.

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I'm glad I'm not the only one who read that and was like, what is this guy talking about?
I bought a used Honda in 98 and had it until 07 with no problems but basic maintenance. I have had American cars bought brand new and compaired to Honda, Toyota, etc. they're crap. My money doesnt come easy so yeah I'm going to buy the best deal but a car I know wont blow a gasket twice in the first 2 months after driving it off the lot.

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That's right. RIGHT ON. For the people who say Detroit cars are garbage: I've found that most of y'all can't so much as change a distributor cap without paying a mechanic. If you could, you'd see some interesting things when you looked under the hood of your prized import. Most notably, you'd see the kind of built-in obsolescence that would make even the designers of the I-Pod blush. (BTW, how "environmentally friendly" is it to design disposable cars that become soft metal garbage in 6-8 years, a la Honda?)

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As we can all see now, oil prices are very sensitive to demand. Who would have thought that oil prices would dip below $100 so quickly? That's what an economic collapse does, however - the same thing happened in Russia in the 1990s.

The auto companies got caught up in Big Oil's demand stimulation program - sell more low-mileage trucks and less fuel-efficient cars. In the early 1980s, U.S. automakers produced a large number of small efficient cars - Ford Escorts, Dodge Colts, etc. That trend was cut off in the U.S. by the SUV, but it continued in many other countries with higher gas prices, so now 50 mpg gas-only cars are normal in Europe.

As gas prices and awareness of global warming increased, consumers demanded clean cars - electric or hybrid or biodiesel-powered. The U.S. automakers went along with Big Oil, while Toyota introduced hybrids.

Who controls both the oil corporations and the car corporations? Their shareholders, who elect the boards, who appoint the CEOs. Exxon shareholders routinely vote down any environmental proposals at their yearly meetings, don't they? Their one concern appears to be making sure their dividends keep flowing, period.

They just got a $700 billion taxpayer handout, which is not being used to keep credit lines open (quite the opposite) - it is being used by the surviving banks to consolidate ownership and create and even more monopolistic financial system.

One key part of that effort involves the global trade agreements that the corporate left (*and the coporate right) is such an ardent supporter of. NAFTA, SPP, CAFTA, MEFTA, China's most-favored nation status - it all fits into the same pattern. Business tycoons get to write the rules and do whatever they want, while basic democratic principles are ignored.

This approach is only possible with a well-controlled press - which is currently the situation in the U.S., especially when it comes to the political press (the left and the right), which are always going to act as the voices of their financial sponsors.

That's why you need truly independent press, which doesn't mean secretive non-profits with links to giant corporations via private foundations.

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Because I just heard one of their CEOs on TV today, and you sound exactly like him. He was trying to scare us into giving them the bailout, and saying that if we did, we certainly wouldn't hear any more bailout requests from them for "at least several months"--how comforting.

The fact of the matter is, Michael Moore's plan of buying out the Big Three is not only cheaper but would probably save more jobs than giving them the bailout they want--it's not like they're giving any guarantee that they won't do mass layoffs. I have nothing against the workers or for that matter the design of cars like the Ford Focus (my French aunt drives one, and it runs great, although who knows if the one sold in America is even half as good), but the CEOs and other top management have got to go. They were the ones who made the bad decisions, and now they should be thrown out flat on their asses, no salary, no pension, no stock options, no nothing. Instead of them, have the rank and file run the companies as worker cooperatives: one worker = one voting share.

I sent an email to the Obama team about this yesterday through http://change.gov/page/s/economy. This is what I said:

WHY WORKER OWNERSHIP IS BETTER THAN A BAILOUT:

First of all, it is absolutely ridiculous to loan the Big Three automakers huge amounts of money--in exchange for what? promises? groveling?--when the government could simply buy all three companies for less than the cost of the proposed loan.

What we should do: buy out (not bail out) the Big Three, and force them to become worker-run cooperatives, where one worker = one voting share. This approach has saved numerous firms in Argentina that were about to go belly up during that country's financial crisis. The worker cooperative model has proven itself effective for companies around the world. Worker-run companies are economically just--no parasite CEOs making 25x more than their employees--and allow innovative ideas to be implemented much faster than in companies with a top-down decision-making structure. The US auto industry is more in need of worker ownership right now than possibly any other industry; it supports far too many jobs to be allowed to simply fail, but its upper management has made disastrous decisions and should be penalized for it. The solution is obvious: get rid of the top dogs and let the workers run the companies.

Along with worker ownership, any government action to save the Big Three should also include stringent conditions regarding fuel economy and green innovation. A good start would be getting electric cars onto the market NOW--the technology is there--remember the General Motors EV1? If you don't, see the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car?" and prepare to get mad.

Worker ownership is a viable alternative to both the failed Communist system, and our own failed system of greedy, overpaid CEOs running huge hierchical companies that are "too big to fail". For more on how and why it should take root in the US, "After Capitalism: From Managerialism to Workplace Democracy", by Seymour Melman. It's a somewhat dry read, but extremely informative, with concrete examples of successful workplace democracies in action.

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In 1975 I interviewed for a management position with the Lincoln-Mercury division of the Ford Motor Company and was a good prospect. At the interview I was told that the key to advancement at the Ford Motor Company was to be married with at least 2 children, a big house in the 'burbs and own a Ford station wagon. When upper managment has you by the short and curlies you will do whatever they want you to do, which is to promote large pieces of gas-guzzling junk. At the time I owned the best product from GM which was a 1967 Camaro that I had rebuilt from the ground up which was why it was a great car as opposed to when it rolled off the assembly line. Great hot-rod, did the quarter in 13. I decided that I wanted no part of corporate amerika.

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What ever position you take on this, the internal combustion engine was designed for demise. Finite oil reserves means going, going, gone. The fact is that any car manufacture that is putting petrol engine vehicles on the road today that will need feeding for at least 20 to 25 years with finite oil will not be sustained. This internal combustion engine system is designed for demise!
Bob Williamson Chair
Greenhouse Neutral Foundation
Author of Zero Greenhouse Emissions - The Day the Lights Went Out - Our Future World. www.strategicbookpublishing.com/ZEROGreenhouseEmissions.html

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they picked the right one. Like real estate's location, the first three things people look for in an automobile are reliability, reliability, and reliability. Detroit keeps telling us that they have figured it out. But they have lied so much that we don't dare listen.

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We are all watching as this nation struggles like Hell, in the halls of Congress, to keep a transportation system alive based upon a family unit sized means of conveyance. I think many who post here can agree that this has never been good for the Country - no matter what the President of G.M said about 50 years ago.

I think we can agree that we need to change the way we live. I hope most can accept that the Big Three deliberately, viciously and with cold calculation destroyed the trolley car system that did such a magnificent job moving people from place to place in the first half of the 20th century. And I hope most can agree they don't deserve to be saved, therefore.

Right now, our Nation is perched on the edge of an abyss. If we refuse to change we will are fall into it with horrendous consequences.

I don't think it has to happen. I think, if hard pressed, perhaps somebody with the authority and power might get shaken out of their reverie of saving the Big Three so that they can see that the major thing to do is to set ourselves, immediately, to rebuilding the mass transit system we so desperately need - before it's too late.

Doing this, I believe, will necessarily be the end of Suburbia, because it's based on the 'Car Culture'. It also means the rapid end of lot of the conveniences all of us have come to take for granted. But in the end I believe it's one of the major ways of keeping our Homeland from falling into that aforementioned abyss.

If we don't - then I firmly believe when we, as a nation, finally emerge from all the great suffering that will be caused by the fall, we will no longer be the people we were. We'll only be a shadow of that with many only looking fondly to past glory to assuage their pain. While the upcoming and yet unborn generations will solely be concerned with bare survival.

To try to press the matter, hard, for the kind of building program needed to get mass transmit immediately up and running while at the same time pressing for the abandonment of the Big Three and concomitant end of the "Car Culture" is going to be very difficult to do. Many just will not listen and some will call that act anti-American. But I think it's one of the most patriotic things to do at this moment.

So, the question is: are we willing to let go of the 'Car culture' and move on or are we going to hold on to it to the very bitter end and get dragged into the abyss?

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THAT is what this money should be spent on!
(That is what the Billions to the Bankers should have been spent on!)
Without the burdens of Health Care costs, Detroit might be able to save itself, AND figure out that they need to make better, Non-Oil and gas cars....and hire cheaper, better management.
Universal Health Care would also save countless other businesses and whatever manufacturing left in the USA.!
Meanwhile, I agree, Detroit should go begging to the OIL COMPANIES they've been in bed with for so long: THEY have the money!

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Someone mentioned an electric train. Well, Henry Ford did have an electric train running from the Rouge Plant in Dearborn to one in Ohio. I live in one of the suburbs of Detroit and we still have the giant cement arches that held the cable of that train along the railroad tracks going through our city. Henry Ford also did experiment with an alternative fuel made from soybeans. After reading some of these comments, it is amazing how little some people know about the auto industry and cars in general. There has always been a lot of research and development done in the auto industry and I know they had the technology to do a lot of things. There has always been many economic and political factors as to why they didn't happen. The big three have always made great cars though they did need a bit of a shake-up in the 70's....and 'green' cars would be nice but I'd really like a blue car with fins....

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If the Big Three go down so will the rest of the country. They paid excellent wages, provided a lot of jobs and we paid a lot of taxes which has provided a great deal of wealth in this country...wouldn't it be sad to see Thelma and Louise driving off a cliff in a Honda...

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What industry has tirelessly resisted change, spent huge political and corporate capital against CAFE standards, and wrapped themselves in flags every time a new wave of strong competition came along and they needed help.

By letting these 3 horribly run companies fail there would remain the technical skills and demand for new automakers to emerge. We shouldnt be talking about how many jobs we would lose but how many jobs the country would stand to GAIN from freeing America.

... and how many books is a person required to sell to submit an article to Alternet ? This is a website for progressives. I dont want to read postings from people who vote GOP and have it in for Michael Moore who has done more to enlighten Americans to what America really is than any American alive. Whats next Alternet ? Postings from Bill OReilly ?

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Michael Moore is pleased when he gets a rise out of those who live in glass houses.

We buy the cars, if we build the best cars then buy them, if we don't its our money, that is where the nationalism should end.
You don't buy local if local is not what you want, a Yugo was not a burning issue for most?

Henry Ford proved his cars did not replace all of the other car makers in the world. Peugeot has been making "cars" long before Henry.

The power plants of the vehicles we drive will be our swan song if we do not come up with a replacement for the internal combustion engine.
Internal combustion engines spin a crack shaft
driven by the explosion of fossil fuels in a contained space.
Those crank shafts can be driven by compressed air it what a turbo charger does the the gas air mixture, just fill the tanks with compressed air and charge the storage bottles as you drive,

We want and will buy cars that do not destroy the air we breathe, our children, their children and grand children.

WE DO THIS NOW.

Your local dealer does not care who builds the car his only concern is who will buy it.
Drive American built ( if you can find them )US cars and see if it is worth the investment.
Competition is what makes the market work, Big three has some competent competition, if they want to play, PROVE IT.

Ford appears to be doing something right.

I have not driven a new Malibu but in turn my old horse, a 1990 Lexus 400 LS is the best car I have driven or owned. Why pay for newer is what you have gets you around in comfort. Our
throw away auto mentality is good for the makers but unnecessary for we who buy the cars,
we who breathe the air.

For we who spend the money. A good car is a joy as long as it meets the needs of the valuable contents inside. We spend the money.
Money makes the world go round.

Clean money from clean energy will allow us to breathe longer. If you have to burn something to get from here to there please remember the air, walking works.

This is the time for all good men and women to come to the aid of our country, Mr. Obama seems to be asking for our help. We can change anything we want as long as we really want it.

If an electric car can get me from here to there I'm in favor, and I love to drive. But from Utah to California Larry the Shark gets great gas milage even at 110 in Nevada.

Life is fun, but it does not have to be poisonous. GM proved it can make electric cars now let them make them and we will power them with solar power energy.

The burning question is who with Mr. Obama choose for Secretary of Agriculture?

Patrick McGean
Director
Live Blood and Cellular Matrix Study
Body Human Project
organicsulfur@sisna.com
Favorite cars were built by engineers.


p.s.


Cars kill more people each year than any war we have waged "in country." Conspiracy or lack of engineering? Trucks can be economical, just ask your local tow truck driver, no big V8 any more.
We could build build the best world class cars if the manufacturers were not so profit conscious with the new muscle cars or SUVs. How about a really comfortable 5 passenger automobile which could carry three uncle Harry in the back seat.

The power train is the enemy of the industry and the air we breathe, if "salt of the earth" had not gotten so full of testosterone he would have completed his thought. What color is the air where you breathe?

GM built them, they worked and some still do, if GM does not want to do it let us the people buy the technology and we will build our own electric cars.

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