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Corporate Accountability and WorkPlace

The Fallacy of the 401(k)

By Marie Cocco, Washington Post Writers Group. Posted October 14, 2008.


401(k)s are the contemporary version of the get-rich-quick scheme. They place retirement in the shaky hands of the market.
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WASHINGTON -- The essential fallacy of the 401(k) has been exposed. It took a historic market collapse -- one that threatens to impoverish workers already in retirement and those who are nearing it. But then, crushing hardship is often what's required to usher out an era of ideological illogic and unconscionable greed.

The advent of the 401(k) in the late 1970s and early 1980s was a leading indicator of what became a political mania for shifting the risk and responsibility for life's big challenges -- health care, an adequate income in retirement -- from employers and other broad-shouldered institutions to the narrower, weaker backs of individuals themselves.

It was never sold this way, of course. The pitch for the 401(k) was a contemporary version of the get-rich-quick scheme: The promise of strolling along a sun-dappled beach in retirement would be realized with ease, so long as workers regularly contributed modest amounts to the accounts, then let the compounding magic of the market work. To hear the mutual fund companies and the media tell it, only fuddy-duddies and dinosaur employers would be foolish enough to opt for the old-fashioned defined-benefit pension, the type employers paid for and professional managers oversaw, and which guaranteed monthly payments in old age. The type that gave the hard-boiled men and women of the industrial age security, but would never reward them with riches.

The offer seemed good to media observers, and to the politicians who nurtured the do-it-yourself retirement with successive legislative schemes. During the stock market boom of the 1990s, esteemed business publications published breathless articles featuring manufacturing workers who would use their lunch breaks to track their mutual fund balances and ponder the possibilities of the loan they would take out for a cabin on the lake or an anniversary trip to Hawaii.

But despite the hype, the data on 401(k)s have never -- ever -- shown that these accounts were creating a mass of workers who would be able to retire with security, let alone luxury.

The 401(k)s didn't expand the proportion of the work force with pension coverage, notwithstanding claims that shifting to accounts that required workers to contribute would make employers more willing to offer the benefit. Less than half of workers have any type of pension coverage from their current employer at all, according to the Center for Retirement Research at Boston College.

For those who do have retirement accounts, the bottom line has long been grim. In 2004, the last year for which data are available, the median balance in IRA and 401(k) retirement accounts was $35,000, according to the Federal Reserve. For those nearest to retirement -- households headed by someone between 55 and 64 -- the median balance in 2004 was $60,000. That's enough to generate about $400 a month in retirement income, according to the research center.

These numbers reflect balances before the current market meltdown, which wiped out about $2 trillion in retirement assets when losses in individual accounts as well as employer-based pension funds are tallied. How did this happen? Like so many other political experiments of the last three decades, it was good for the corporate bottom line -- and therefore, supposedly good for America. The 401(k) plan was first promoted to supplement, not replace, traditional pensions, according to Alicia Munnell, director of the Boston College center. Over time, as new businesses were formed, they opted to provide only these accounts, eschewing traditional plans.

More recently, even companies with healthy, traditional pension systems have frozen those plans (effectively abandoning their pledges to longtime workers) and replaced them with 401(k)s. Why? "Shifting from a defined-benefit plan to a 401(k) plan will reduce required employer contributions from 7 to 8 percent of payrolls to the 3 percent employer match," Munnell and a team of researchers wrote in a 2006 paper.

This was never about empowering workers to reap the rewards of financing their own retirement. It was about reducing corporate costs.

"I think what has become clear is that we just can't have a system where people are exposed to this type of market risk," Munnell told me in an interview. Nor, in the age of global competition, can American businesses solely shoulder pension costs that in other countries are at least partially borne by governments.

Some new system that might be called "Social Security-plus" must be developed. Remember that in a year or two, when politicians try to sell us on the supposed need to "reform" Social Security with something that really amounts to Social Security-minus.



(c) 2008, Washington Post Writers Group

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See more stories tagged with: economy, retirement, market, financial collapse, 401(k), pension

Marie Cocco is a prize-winning syndicated columnist on political and cultural topics for The Washington Post Writers Group. She is a frequent commentator on national TV and radio shows. Marie Cocco's e-mail address is mariecocco(at)washpost.com.

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Mismanagement
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Oct 14, 2008 3:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Back when the 401k was first becoming popular, I recall stories of companies draining their old-style pension funds to help their bottom line, buy out other companies, pay for executive perks, etc. It played on that old Republican fear of inefficient, corrupt, "socialized" programs.

I have to admit it was a selling point for me, and still is to a small extent, especially these days. I never expected to retire rich on my 401k money. But it was more like having a piggy bank right in front of me on my desk, where I could keep my eye on my pennies.

I still hear stories of DB payments not being there when people retire, due to corporate excess, mismanagement or other reasons. The concept of someone else managing my retirement money still makes me nervous. If they ever try to bring back the DB plan for the average person, I think they should address those concerns.

Oh, and one more "selling point" about 401ks are the tax benefits. While it's true that your money isn't taxed on the way in, withdrawals are taxed at your income rate, even though the money would probably qualify for long-term capital gains rates.

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» RE: Mismanagement Posted by: JSquercia
Life on the beach!
Posted by: progressive-life on Oct 14, 2008 5:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The argument for defined benefit vs 401K's is pretty much like socialism vs capitalism - good and bad to each!

The reality is that if an employee isn't going to get rich on his/her 401K they aren't in a defined benefit plan. The lure to 401K plans for employees was that they knew what they had in terms of retirement and many companies could no longer afford to fund defined benefit plans. So when those companies folded so did your retirement in many cases. Those company 401k's were also professional managed and changes in your plan allocation was limited in time to avoid employees playing with them every week!


401K's were and are a good deal but like any financial planner will tell you it should not be the total picture, as a defined benefit plan shouldn't. If you are diversified in your retirement approach, you are safer than if it was all in one pot.

One look at GM and their retirement obligations gives a pretty good picture how fixed obligations can ruin a company and retirees benefits!

All that said, I, like many Americans in their late 50's with defined contribution plans are getting pretty worried! Cash is now king and the retirement on the beach dreams are just that!

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I was hoping for some answers on this...
Posted by: wheresarah on Oct 14, 2008 5:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks for the article, Alternet. I hope to see more on this subject. I'm looking for answers and can't seem to find them but I knew this site would at least scratch the surface.

You see, I'm 27 years old and a single mother of one. I work full time and had a 401(k). I just happened to change jobs at a very strange time. I switched to a new employer who does not offer 401(k), so I chose to roll mine over into an IRA so I wouldn't be penalized. Smart move, right?

So wrong.

First let me state that I'm actually poor, ok? I stretched my budget as far as I could for four years to have that 401(k). It grew to about $5,800 by the time I switched jobs a couple weeks ago. And I'm only referring to the cash I actually contributed. No extras, no gains. Just cash from my pocket.

Last week, it lost over $1,000. By the time I had the damn thing rolled over, it was worth $3,900. (Of course this was IMMEDIATELY BEFORE Wall Street's big gains yesterday -- just my luck.)

And I have $15 in my pocket right now. Seriously, fifteen dollars.

I should have cashed the damn 401(k) out the moment I left my old job. I would have been taxed and penalized equally or less than the amount I just lost to Wall Street!

Looks like I just paid for AIG's luxurious retreat. I just contributed my part to Wall Street. You're welcome. Because I need a tank of gas, and I can't even buy one until my next paycheck - two days from now. I will have to borrow money to AFFORD to drive to work.

Fuckers.

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Mismanagement??? Stop the press..........
Posted by: nfamous on Oct 14, 2008 5:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This fiasco was done completely on purpose. It came from the top and I don't mean the government. I mean the top of corporations or the global elite like the Rockefellers and the Rothschilds of England. They have been orchestrating a financial takeover of the US ever since they got pissed off about the Bill of Rights and their plan started to unfold when the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was passed with almost all of Congress on Christmas vacation.

Sure there are some middle men and women who didn't know what the hell they were doing but so what? They were pawns too. Compartmentalization of crime requires that people are on a "need to know" basis. Americans have for too long bought the lie that government is there to protect them. Government exists to protect corporations and the elite.....period. Whites are particularly vulnerable to the lie because they think whites will always look out for other whites. Wrong. Rich whites don't give a damn about poor whites. Until American naivete and self-delusion end this pattern will continue.

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"Two-Tier" Pensions...
Posted by: gnaw_bone on Oct 14, 2008 6:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our company is proposing that new hires received a "defined contribution" "pension" (i.e., a 401(k) instead of a traditional "defined benefit" plan. The good news is that we're unionized, so they can't simply impose this change. The bad news is that the kids may not appreciate the implications of this proposal. This would undermine our bargaining position and our ability to strike if we must.

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Resurrect the DB Plan
Posted by: Jim Shaw on Oct 14, 2008 6:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the author noted, the 401k was not intended to replaced defined benefit plans, but to supplement them.

Of course, companies loved the idea of shifting retirement costs and risks to employees, and seduced them with matching contributions. Wall Street media provided helpful necessary propaganda to con the public into entrusting their retirement to the stock market (the extra demand for stocks, and the administration of 401K plans, provided a nice dividend for Wall Street). Predictably, DB plans have gradually died out.

In a way, it’s nice to know “exactly” how much money one has in their 401K plan, and to be able to watch it grow, but given that the market is subject to bubbles and wild swings, that current account value doesn’t really mean a whole lot. This is especially true given that if the account is converted to an annuity, there will be significant charges that will reduce the monthly payout. So, with the DB plan, which indicates exactly what the employee is entitled to in terms of a monthly payout, you really have a better idea of what it’s worth, even though you don’t necessarily see a total balance.

The problems with the DB plans have been:
1. Our bought-and-paid-for Congress has allowed companies to grossly under-fund them.
2. Courts have allowed companies to weasel out of their commitments under these plans.
3. DB plans have not been protected from creditors when a companies have filed for bankruptcy.

There is no reason the above problems cannot be corrected if the people demand it. If they can, I’ll take a DB plan any day over the casino that is the 401K.

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» RE: esurrect the DB Plan Posted by: foius
We are Psychological beings
Posted by: Evelyn on Oct 14, 2008 6:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And one of the weaknesses of psychological beings is that how we feel about something, how something looks to us, influences our decisions. Take 401ks. If I'm a working person, making $60,000, $5000 a month, and I have a $150,000 saved up in my 401k, I feel pretty darn rich.

Man, look at all that money. I'm really sitting pretty. Except that it's really not much money at all. If I were to take 10% out a year, assuming that 10% growth allows the principal to stay the same, that's only $15,000 a year. Nowheres near enough to maintain my standard of living. (I probably still owe on my mortgage when I retire.)

And if I start taking principle, I've only got about 3 years worth of savings, and 15 or 20 years of life expectancy.

I need amounts of money that seem unfathomable to an ordinary working person. I need more like $1.5 million stashed away. Anyone you know building up a 401k like that?

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very few Americans have anything substantial saved
Posted by: deborama on Oct 14, 2008 6:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All this talk of people's retirement accounts disappearing is bullshit--most people don't have any retirement account to speak of:

More than two-thirds (68 percent) of current workers say they and their spouses have accumulated less than $50,000 in retirement savings. Not surprisingly, this modest level of saving is more prevalent among younger workers: 88 percent of workers ages 25–35 have less than $50,000 saved for retirement, compared with 52 percent of workers ages 55 and older. (Source: Employee Benefit Research Institute, http://www.ebri.org).

I would venture to say most of the remaining 48% of workers over age 55 have very little over that $50,000 number saved. Such a figure will generate about $400/month in retirement income.

Who gives a shit about people's retirement accounts disappearing? Not those of us who have none! Welcome to the club, boys and girls! Thanks for paying me less money now than I made 30 years ago, before I earned a bachelor's and a master's degree! Thanks for increasing the cost of absolutely everything by astronomical factors from 1980 to the present!

How are you supposed to save any money on the average American income? It's totally impossible. I live in a very poor neighborhood in a house that's falling apart, have a net worth that's negative due to my IRS lien and the fact that I own NOTHING, and I work 60-70 hours a week at two jobs, one of which gives me no benefits and the other requires me to pay $7000/year for my health insurance.

This country has gone to hell in a handbag since Reagan was elected. If the only way we wake up is that the people who "have" money "lose" that money and come out of their American Idol-created comas, then so be it.

You can't save on $10 or $15 an hour, hell you can't even live on it, let's get real.

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Why 401K's are better than pensions
Posted by: rickiey on Oct 14, 2008 7:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Very simply, pensions require one thing that I, or anyone else who is not rich, can't afford:

Trust in the corporations that give the pensions.

A 401K, is money that the company does not have access to, and can not take.

Pensions on the other hand, can (and frequently are) raided, and eliminated. As US Airways employees how they feel about pensions vs 401Ks. They'd love to have the 401K money, even after the recent disasters, compared to what they got from their pensions: A bankruptcy filing that made them go away.

My 401k? If my company fires me, dissolves, files bankrupcy or just dissappears, I still have the money towards my pension that I've put in, and that they have matched.

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» Thank you Reagan revolution Posted by: SteveO
A REALISTIC RETIREMENT
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 14, 2008 8:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everyone's income is reduced when they retire. Even under the best of conditions if you didn't have 2 houses and a boat when you were working, it not going to happen when you retire. TV has completely distorted the "Retirement Years". The 401K plans have been hit hard because they are not savings plans, they are investment accounts. Recent events will re-structure the way people SAVE for retirement. Stock purchase plans are great, but it's not the same as saving. Savings will grow, stock may or may not continue to go up. Cash is not a dirty word. Thanks, ANNA

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» Neither is Social Security Posted by: pdxjoe
» RE: A REALISTIC RETIREMENT Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: A REALISTIC RETIREMENT Posted by: badkitty
Understanding why 401ks are a fallacy
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Oct 14, 2008 8:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a really horrible article. Dont get me wrong, there is something terribly wrong with 401ks, but this article is just gobbledegook. Let me explain what it is about a 401k that makes it such a horrible idea.

First of all, 401ks are inflationary. Most 401k's dont let you put your money into short and ultrashort ETFs, such as SKF and FXP (two extremely profitable short term investments.) Nor do they let you invest in gold ETFs (such as GLD) and my favorite, the new double-long gold ETF (DGP). By not allowing you to short the market, or hedge with gold, they are creating a highly inflationary market bubble.

This money bubble is as much to blame for the housing bubble as anything else. That money would have bubbled somewhere... That is the truly important thing to understand about inflation and bubbles. If Glass-Steagal wasnt repealed, and if the GSE's weren't assured of govt backing, and if a host of other things didnt happen, then we would not have had a housing bubble. But rest assured we would have had a big bubble somewhere, and it would have created and destroyed as many jobs as the housing bubble. That bubble came from 401ks. And now the bubble is popping as people lose half the value of their pensions and 401ks.

The second most important thing to understand about 401ks, is that they are just pools of Big Dumb Money. People put their money in. Employers match. And then everyone just basically forgets about it. Meanwhile, that money is used in a complicated game of financial chess. A huge entangling web of leverage is built so that when the bubble pops, it spreads the losses out across the entire 401k and pension pool. This is a scam that is well documented. Yet people just dont get it. You cant put your money anywhere and expect it to grow on its own. A pool of big dumb money will always be taken. The fraud is completely transparent.

All this financial wizardry is nothing more complicated than a mess on the kitchen floor, made by a child trying to stack up various objects so he can reach the cookie jar. Sure, the mess may appear complicated. You might see magazines and bowls and chairs and cookies and all sorts of other things on the floor, but that does not change the fact that the cause is simple.

Same goes with our financial industry. You have a large pool of big dumb money. You have the Federal Reserve deliberately creating boom-bust cycles to transfer wealth to the elite. And now we have the perfectly predictable result: 401k wealth is transferred to the elite in a Fed boom-bust cycle.

The only solution, the only sound way to invest is to know what the heck is going on with your money. Period. The moment you let somebody else manage your money, you are contributing to a great Ponzi scheme. Unless they are somebody you know and trust.

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401ks are a crap shoot.
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Oct 14, 2008 9:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm one of the lucky ones, a senior citizen who benefits from a vested retirement fund that's also insured.

Nowadays, most American workers rely on self-managed, stock-based 401ks. If the Wall Street experts can't anticipate market declines, how could ordinary people?

Rolling the retirement dice is not what I want for my children and grandkids.

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Graduating From Earth Plane
Posted by: Gravitas on Oct 14, 2008 9:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it very interesting how we push and push longevity! As a fat American who grew up a fat child, I can honestly say I darn near had my life ruined by those who obsessed with the few minutes at the end of my life I may lose by being abundant. How very, very ironic that most people do not consider quality as well as quantity. Many many Americans will face a retirement of poverty. I am so glad I found the strength to blow them off and not listen anymore. I see no point in sacrificing there here and now so I can gain a few more years just to live in an old folks home waiting each month for my meager SSI check. Let the sheeple who must think like everyone else stay and be a burden to the generations under them. I have always realized life is just one phase of existence and moving on at the right time is the point to why we came in the first place.

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» RE: Graduating From Earth Plane Posted by: undrgrndgirl
Did you ever try to figure out...
Posted by: FAITHCARR on Oct 14, 2008 10:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Did you ever try to figure out... just WHAT, exactly your 401K was invested in?

I tried to sort though my husbands 401K so that "progressive" companies would receive the bulk of our "investments" We were on the 10% risky, 20% safe, and 70% "Secure".

The plan was "managed" by some LARGE fund manager and when I tried to find out just which funds were "selected" there were pages and pages and pages of companies I had never heard of. I mean like 3 pages just for the "A's"

So, as "intended" I gave up trying.

SILVER LINING in a dark, dark cloud department:

My hubbie was laid off on the Wednesday before the stock market crash, and behind my back had cashed in the 401K, and stuck it in our new credit union account. I was P-I-S-S-E-D. Until Monday evening.

Made him steak on the grill and roasted sweet potato(e). I of course had the crow, and my hat for veggie.


Quotation Marks to indicate assumption of meaning.
F.

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I agree: 401K's are only marginally better than the outright swindle of so-called "social security"
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Oct 14, 2008 10:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They are investment vehicles that have been touted as providing financial security. Setting aside that--on average--over any 20 year period since the inception of the U.S. stock market, no one has lost a dime, you can't go into any investment thinking that it is absolutely "safe".

It's a nice tax perk for some, and a savings vehicle for many who have companies that match large portions of their contributions. It is no guarantee--which it has been largely touted as--as opposed to the Ponzii scheme of social security, which guarantees for anyone who can perform 4th grade math that we're pouring our money into a big empty pit.

There are relative levels of risk with investments, and there are relative levels of stupidity associated with sending your tax dollars off to Washington to be looted. If you're under thirty and reading this:

You will not draw one dime of social security, ever. The system is designed to fail, and it was designed well--on the premise that you can have something for nothing.

Faced with that reality, I'd rather go with demon that I can potentially predict--i.e., steel and toilet paper are still going to be bought 50 years from now, so PnG and Korean steel may be good investments, rather than the one I can absolutely predict: the impending bankruptcy of social security, sped on by the massive and growing unfunded liability of medicare.

Time will show that you really can't get something for nothing; be scared of that reality if you're planning on relying on a lie to eat 40-50 years from now.

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» Social Security is Well Funded Posted by: FoonTheElder
The GOP at Work--Turning the 401(k) into a 201(k)
Posted by: jimswanson on Oct 14, 2008 11:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jim Swanson, Los Altos, CA
www.bushleagueofnations.com [For FREE downloads of entire book]

Let’s never forget that the GOP wanted to feed Social Security to the sharks on Wall Street.

If the GOP’s “free enterprise” system does not work in the financial arena, I submit that it cannot work anywhere.

Reagan asked voters, “Are you better off than you were four years ago?”

We should now also ask, “How is your 201(k) doing?”

I now offer an effective free weapon to patriots everywhere. You can download for FREE my entire book, "The Bush League of Nations: The Coalition of the Unwilling, the Bullied and the Bribed – the GOP’s War on Iraq and America," by James A. Swanson (2008, CreateSpace Publishing, 448 pages).

It’s a rich resource for arguments and information to counter the talking points, myths and lies of the extreme right.

Please spread the good news in any way you can. And don’t hesitate to contact me.

I ask for nothing in return, other than the satisfaction of knowing you might be using it to help kick out the worst regime and political party in America’s history.

Go Obama!

Jim Swanson
www.bushleagueofnations.com

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Let's Even The Playfield
Posted by: FoonTheElder on Oct 14, 2008 11:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look at what happens to those companies in the private sector who have full pension plans. They are largely the companies who have been nearly bankrupted by legacy costs, such as pensions and retiree health care. At the same time new American companies and foreign companies doing business in the U.S. have none of those expenses.

The problem is that the U.S. has not implemented a universal health plan, nor does it have a Social Security program that is comparable to other countries benefit levels. This creates a situation where companies that provide better benefits to their employees are competitively disadvantaged.

This is a situation where a generous mandatory social security system, paid by everyone, would level the uneven playing field. Instead of 401k plans that are little more than wefare for Wall Street brokers, we would have a system that wouldn't require employer supplementary plans that can disappear at any time.

As far as the cost. First, the phony social security crisis needs to be exposed and then the savings from single payer health care ($3000+ per every American per year) can be used to pay for the difference.

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401Ks are a complete scam!
Posted by: Symp on Oct 14, 2008 1:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's the FEES, stupid! So much do, the financial sector has managed for force an 'opt-out' requirement for employees just to milk the system even more. I call it a Ponzi Scheme and it really is!

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back when 401(k)'s...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Oct 14, 2008 3:43 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
were the new thing...i knew, i simply knew, that by the time i was "nearing" retirement (i'm 44) they'd figure out a way to separate me from my money...thank goodness i've been too poor to keep a 401(k) solvent...because they've managed to do pretty much what i thought they would.

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median balance / not investing foolishly
Posted by: ericjs on Oct 14, 2008 5:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"the median balance in IRA and 401(k) retirement accounts was $35,000" The problem with this figure is many of us (most of us?) have multiple 401k accounts, as people these days tend to change jobs, and with each job likely comes a different account.

One is supposed to only invest your 401k in "aggresive" (high risk, high potential gain) funds (stock-based), when young. The periodic losses will be balanced out by the high yeild over the long haul. As you approach retirement you should be shifting your account into safer funds, bond-based, treasury fund based.

Perhaps the government should invest in educating people so they don't manage their 401ks foolishly.

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401k vs Pension Plan
Posted by: hilly7 on Oct 14, 2008 7:54 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, I'm fairly sure that my Teamsters Pension is shot to hell, then again, I never counted on getting it anyway. I didn't enroll in UPS's 401K, mostly because UpS had it's name on it. My wife however did have a 401K and I did have CDs. I cashed them out. My wife decided to cash her 401K out 2 days ago, 10 months after I cashed out CDs as they came due. Didn't anybody see this coming, probably not. Too much TV and preoccupation. I never looked at a 401K until my wife asked where to put her money and showed me some kind of weird trap. Why would anybody let someone pick a "plan" with their money, I want companies, not plans.

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I knew it, I told everyone so. 401k's were a scam time bomb
Posted by: common intelligence on Oct 14, 2008 11:04 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why in hell, how in hell, could anyone gamble and call it investment?
I knew it back when Reagan was in office. I knew that it was impossible to come to fruition because it's all based of the perpetual growth model of economics. It just can't be. So are you all going to buy into the scam again?

How could people allow themselves to believe stock investments can only get bigger, when the whole premise of stocks is they go up and down. The whole scam of a stock market is a crap shoot. For someone to win someone has to pay.
Just like yesterday when all of a sudden the market jumps 900 points.
I wonder who made out on the misfortune of others this time.

I am sorry to those that fell prey to this. But No one listened to me before and I don't think they will this time either. But you people just keep listening and believe in the same liars that brought or allowed this economic collape (As it is eing called) to show this ugly truth. For now they are telling you all they are the leading you all toward recovery.

I just don't understand why Bush and all the bastards in control are being allowed by the people to continue directing the future of our economic system.

The media and even public media refrain even expressing or considering that there are other options to the BailOut.

Complicient "economist" are the only ones that are given any air time. All well a plethora of more wise economists are kept from public criticism of the methods being imposed. Besides they bastards are going to do what ever the deside and don't give a rats ass what we want or consider what we think.

Yup 401k holders. Too bad. But what we are all seeing is the true value of everything being revealed. Something is only worth what you can get out of it when "you" sell it. It's never what you were told it will be.

It's like investiing in fantastic medical research and life saving technology. It's only for those that can afford it every one else...well you get the picture. LIke when I was asked if I'd like to donate to prostrate cancer research. I said. "I have to be able to afford heath insurance or medical care or I could never benefit from the research.
Oh, ya, I know some of you might say it's for future generations.
Hell, the last generations are the ones that brought us the present economic problems, why in hell should I beleive donating will do any thing for me better than me doing for myself?

Investing in yourself is the only thing you can control and get any degree of guarantee of a return on yur investment.
When people invest in others as being samrter in investing than themselves they put themselves at the mercy of sales con-men.

Want to fix the system start by unilaterally impeaching all the bastards in congress and in the Presidential office. They are the mindless non qualified people that should not be telling us what is best for us.

ANd anyone that votes for McCain is a fool! and everyone that voted for Bush the last 8 years just suck it up , you dummies. If you eat it you deserve it.

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» Sorry ericjs. How long can you tread water? Posted by: common intelligence
the illusion 401k's are only for long term invests. They are crap shoots!
Posted by: common intelligence on Oct 16, 2008 10:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Somehow people seem to have the idea they are immortal too.
401k's as a long term prayer are wishful assumptions.
That's because even though down turns in the "market" maybe short term it depends on how deep of waters you're in when your waiting for the up turn. When one does look at the "..entire history of the stock market..." it may seem like an interesting subjective view "idealistically"
but no one can personally stay continuously in the juggle of their finances or keep the same adviser who doesn't have their own personal short comings. You can't trust anyone to be on top for you.

There are oh, so many that knew this absurd crash was in the cue for years and even up to the moment. Just like this weeks opening with a 900 point surge, that marked a time to sell, eh? . Then followed a day later... the inevitable sell off. Man, You'll never know who made that a short term killing but those that have $ power did. Then the inevitable 700 point drop followed like clock work.
The rest of the sheeple just hold on and pray while the controllers prey on those with blind hope.

After the great depression it took past world war II to really shift to true natural up swing in the "market" . That was over 15 years.
Those highs and lows you seem to believe are too short and the long term investment ..... well it all depends on what you 401k is invested in. What GM? Chrysler? HP? PanAmerican airlines!!!!!
Corporations can't last for ever, any more than the America that Was!

The game board is being changed and we have no say so in how or which way we'd like it to.

401k holders are at the mercy of faith people they don't know and companies they have no control of. Mutual funds, if that's what the 401k's are roving around in, are so variable, no one can control the high notes and cash out in time. That's especially when the whole economic system is in the hands of fascist. When the Federal Reserve is blindly accepted as monetary god that is only capable of controlling interest rates and printing money out of thin air, there is no way to predict the out come of investments and 401ks have less.

When commercial paper and mutual mortgage paper is allowed to escalate the fiat money base by these lecherous finance banks, trading higher and higher, from bank to bank, they create a whole false view that "things' are worth more than they really are.
Hense the price of all those properties out there no one wants to buy.

Therefore we have the problem now where everyone has lost faith and trust in a system that they are starting to realize is bases on lies and illusion. People have been lied to and in tern people lie to themselves. So now instead of facing the truth, they continue to let themselves be lied to again by the same charlatans that they had faith in before thinking they have their best interest at heart.

Bull Shit. the direction of world finance hasn't anyone persons well being in mind.

If people really think they are so smart with their investing, instead of handing all their personal power over to an investment institute to do what is best for them, they should use their own head and smarts and invest in themselves!

Oh, but those that buy into the 401k scam have to work like mindless drones and don't have time to figure out for themselves how best to invest in themselves so the crap shoot their way through the giant casino called capitalism, where no one gets ahead except at the expense or bad luck of others.

Short term or long term, this time it's a world wide shell game. Time is not on our side.

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401's and IRA's
Posted by: cherylholmes on Oct 17, 2008 12:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Were only designed to shift the retirement moneies from employer to employee..in other words, employers wanted to figure out a way to stop paying for their employees retirement...so, these were devised to do just that...make you pay for your own retirement, so they could reap higher profit margins, lowering your take home pay significantly (disposable income) because you are contributing to a bogus bunch of crap, eventually dropping all the perks to employees so they could line their pockets with that money instead...then the financial institutions, federal government said..hey, we'll tax you again on this income, plus we'll add all kinds of fees so we can REDISTRIBUTE THE WEALTH...and screw you STUPID dumb asses a little more....

BTW...you can kiss Social Security bye-bye in a few years too!

Fuck You! You can't work anymore, tough shit..no more free lunch..you're just a bunch of "useless eaters" Gees , where have we heard this before?

Now just die because if we can't make a buck off you or your dead carcass, we have no use for you!

Ain't the world of business grand? Of course it was all planned...Yes, the stock market is going to crash bigger than any of you can ever imagine...1929 is going to look like baby shit after this one..

Of course it was planned!

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WHEN TIMES WERE GOOD
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 18, 2008 8:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No one asked any questions. IRA's and 401K's grew, increased in value and that's all people cared about. Everything was projected based on a rate of return that could not sustain itself. One economist put it very well when he said "you can't mix mathmatics with human behavior". The assumption that things would stay the same or get even better mislead alot of us to make calculations for 20 years on that were not likely to materlialize. I worked in the brokerage business for 20 yrs. and the the most common mistake is people's failure to ask enough questions. Answers like "don't worry about that" should not be aceptable to you. Not knowing doesn't mean you're stupid. If your plan through work has an administrator that's who you contact. They are paid to SERVICE you and your account. You are not imposing. There are very strict laws about retirement money. You have a right to be informed. Most importantly, however tedious the crap is that you get in the mail, read it. There will probably be some new rules regarding withdrawals during unemployment. Normally they are taxable, but that may change. My point is, for as bad as it already is, don't over look any chance to make a mistake or miss an opportunity. Thanks, ANNA

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