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Corporate Accountability and WorkPlace

Recession? Depression? How Deep, How Far and What Can Be Done?

By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted October 11, 2008.


A survey of what some of the best thinkers believe we're facing in the coming months and years -- and the best ways to prevent complete disaster.
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As the financial crisis gains steam, moving from overextended American households to global banking giants, fear of a major crash is spreading. Talk of "Another Great Depression" has entered the mainstream discourse, 1 out of 6 homeowners are "under water" -- owing more to the banks than their houses are worth -- and $2 trillion of retirement wealth has evaporated over the course of a few short months. The markets have not been "calmed" by the government's heavy interventions; the Dow Jones Industrial Average touched a five-year low this week, and is now 40 percent below its peak of one year ago.

The question on most people's minds is just how far and deep the fallout from the crisis will go. Are we looking at the kind of recessions we've seen -- and survived -- in the early 1980s, early 1990s and at the beginning of this century, or are we staring into an abyss that will be far more painful, one that will profoundly transform our lifestyles?

There's no definitive answer. We're in uncharted waters, and anyone who says they know what will transpire in the next few years is selling snake oil. But some deep thinkers who have a solid command of the structures of the global economy can help us understand the best- and worst-case scenarios, the way the crisis is changing some of the economic establishment's most cherished and long-standing assumptions and what role government -- the American government and those overseas -- might play in minimizing the damage created by Wall Street's excesses.

I contacted a number of leading experts this week -- all highly respected in their field -- to get their reads on the possible impacts of the financial sector's meltdown, the likelihood of the recent bailout having the desired effect and where we might go from here.

There was quite a bit of consensus on several points. First, all agreed that we're in the early stages of a deep recession. Second, most believed that it was in no way inevitable that the crisis would develop into a full-blown 1930s-style depression, and some were skeptical that such an event is even possible in today's economy. Third, all agreed that the length and depth of the crisis would hinge on the actions taken by governments in the coming months. Finally, there was something approaching a consensus that the economic and political establishment has been deeply shaken by the events of recent months, and that the banking mess might lead to a very different approach to governing the "free market."

The Worst-Case Scenario

In a nutshell, the lack of transparency in the system -- the fact that nobody knows precisely who's holding what liabilities on their books -- has the potential to lead to a global loss of confidence among investors and institutions, and what would effectively be the modern-day equivalent of a bank run on the myriad institutions that hold (or guarantee) "toxic" debt-backed securities.

That prospect has already led to a near-freeze in the flow of loans that individuals and businesses require, and if the credit system doesn't shake loose it will make the economic contraction that's already begun longer and more severe and lead to further financial losses.

That might create a vicious cycle in the "real" economy, as jobs are lost, people lose their homes, local governments' revenues -- in the United States, based largely on property taxes -- are cut and their work forces slashed.

As Max Wolff, an economist at the New School, wrote me via e-mail, "we're dependent on our banks. Thus, their pain is ours. Millions will be fired. Retirements will be decimated. Opportunity will vanish, (and) consumption will fall. Everyone is already deeply influenced. This will become more obvious and more painfully evident with each passing day. When it rains on the top of the hill, those who live on the bottom of the hill drown." He added, "there's now a major flight from all risk assets" which will "cause massive pain and dislocation in the developing world." Wolff predicted that "large sections of the consumption economy" will vanish, which will "slam into the leading exporters' markets and undermine much of the recent surge in commodity prices."

"We have now baked a severe and largely global recession into the cake," Wolff said. "The losses are already way too large to swallow. ... The numbers about failures from car dealerships, stores and many small businesses are alarming and will get worse." He added: "The epicenter of the crisis is already shifting out of America and finance."

That point was echoed by Walden Bello, a giant in the global justice movement and founder of the Third World Network, a group of NGOs focusing on development and poverty relief. Bello offered that "given the globalization of national economies over the last two decades, the downturn is going to be a synchronic one, and there is going to be no decoupling of one region from another." The crisis in the United States will continue to expand worldwide, at just the moment when international cooperation is most necessary. "For instance," Bello said, "China's main market is the United States, and China purchases many of its industrial inputs and raw materials from Japan, Korea and Southeast Asia. So Japan and Southeast Asia cannot rely on Chinese demand to make up for a fall in U.S. demand. China, East Asia and the U.S. are tied together like prisoners on a chain gang."


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See more stories tagged with: baker, economic crisis, bailout, galbraith, bello, wolff, hahnel, pollin

Joshua Holland is an AlterNet staff writer.


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Great Depression II or close to it ...
Posted by: mmckinl on Oct 11, 2008 12:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why ?

Because our public, private and corporate debt are 350% of GDP ... This is a staggering debt never before seen in history ... ever. There is no way to pay down or even service the interest on this amount. The United States is basically insolvent and given the demands of the Baby Boomers it will only get worse.

Take a look at this graph:

Need More Than "Deleveraging" To Flatten THIS Debt Mountain

The only time we came even close to this current level of debt was in the 1930s AFTER the onset of Great Depression I. The more our GDP shrinks , and it will given the coming economic maelstrom, the higher our debt to GDP ratio goes.

We are already seeing the results of the ineffectual measures taken so far. Stock markets down dramatically and credit markets much worse than before. This administration is ideologically opposed to that which would work, FDRs bank holiday Plan, call it the Scandinavian or Swedish Plan if you like.By the time the next president takes office it will likely be too late to avoid most of the worst effects.

Our country is now over 45 Trillion in debt. At least half of that will have to be destroyed for the United States to become a viable country once again, and even then our economy will be much diminished as will our lifestyles.

With the right plan this transition could have been orderly and saved much of the economy. We are not headed in that direction. We are headed towards a crash where the baby will get thrown out with the bath water.

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» Kryptonite Posted by: Spot
It'll be much worse...
Posted by: nihilozero on Oct 11, 2008 1:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» All I know for sure is... Posted by: CosmoViking
» RE: All I know for sure is... Posted by: nihilozero
» I'm happy Posted by: Cathyc
I hope someone in Washington is listening.
Posted by: Sojourner on Oct 11, 2008 2:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read this after listening to Moyers’ “Journal” interview with George Soros this week. The consensus seems to be that Paulson is not a very promising prospect for knowing the best action to take with all the money placed at his disposal. The markets agree. But if his latest announcement amounts to using it to recapitalize banks so they can lend, we may get some relief.

Also Soros agrees that the “false” ideology of unfettered free markets has lost its appeal.

The only bright spots I can see are that if this catastrophe had happened under a Demo administration, for the government to take action would have led to repeated filibusters by the wingnuts in the Senate. That still can happen but it is less likely if we get some of them dumped this November.

Will either Obama or McCain dare to talk about some solutions? So far, they have avoided exerting leadership. It is a loud condemnation of the American political system when candidates can persist in the middle of an undeniable economic emergency to avoid the issue. Fiddling while Rome burns is the cliché. But it fits, sadly.

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» Bare Arms Posted by: Cathyc
My biggest fear for the
Posted by: Farmertim on Oct 11, 2008 4:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
election in a few weeks is the fact that no matter who wins, both candidates are surrounded by the ideology that has created this mess.
As the piece said, greed and Trickle down has not done well, and all I am seeing in the bail out and other poor responses to our current ideology of capitalism is more of the same.
Looking for the next fool as a source of income has never made sense to me, and it appears to have fallen on its face.
Wether those who have gained power realize this or not depends how shielded they are from the pain we as common taxpayers have been feeling for a few years now.
Depression may not be enough to gain a true perspective of where we are and my fear is that the whole system will have to crash completely before the voters actually understand what being done to them.
FarmerTim

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» There is something you can do. Posted by: Last Chance
The race to the bottom - who didn't know this would happen?
Posted by: greentime on Oct 11, 2008 4:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These things cannot exist in the same space:

1.Rampant unregulated Speculation
(ie. gambling)

Speculation in land, (this also means resources in economics), speculation in derivatives, and speculation via shorting is what creates a false economy. What goes up into thin air, comes down.

2. Unfair trade and unfair global wages

Until wages go up, guess what? Nothing can move forward. People must be paid a fair wage. Everywhere that labor is exploited, the boom is for the masters, not the wage slaves. For workers, the economy eventually teeters and backslides.

This time, without any meaningful regulation, the greed was so vast it hurt the big boys. Suddenly, they care and take action - for their benefit.


Speculation is the force that creates a FALSE economy. It is the economic equivalent of hot air.

Unfair wages is a force (one of many) that concentrates too much wealth at the top and not enough wealth in the hands of the workers who create wealth for all.

Add to this the Republican lie of less taxation, when they in fact raise taxes on everything from your phone, cable, gas, food, clothing, shelter, schools and on and on... and we have a recipe for disaster.

This is going to be a long climb back up to where we were in the 1970s. Oh, we were in a recession then too, weren't we?

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The Revenue Stream is Gone
Posted by: websmith on Oct 11, 2008 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Interest has stripped the wealth from the population destroying the revenue stream.

$750 billion added to a $10 trillion national debt and the lala land politics that created it is good material for another Golden Compass type movie with Nicole Kidman. Imagine climbing a stack of dollar bills that reaches into space over three times the distance to the moon on your way to magic land. You hope that the fabled magic wand is there because, once you reach the top, you have to jump.

The only problem is that, this time, imaginations have led to reality and reality is madness. It's time to pull the plug on this fantasy movie.
http://ewebsmith.com/self/StandUp.html

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It is so very ironic that ...
Posted by: harryf200 on Oct 11, 2008 5:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... one place the stick market isn't in free fall is ... wait for it .... Iran!

Their day may come and soon, but for the time being, this "rogue state" is showing the rest of us they can play our game better than us.

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» Irag as well Posted by: EJW
GREED fails us every Time! Do something better with The Money! Invest in Ourselves!
Posted by: Ottomatic on Oct 11, 2008 5:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The failed Cor-pirate system based on the corrupt Ideology CAPITALISM is in a shambles.
Let's start over and build a Model Society that benefits everyone.
Build it on the solid foundation of our highest goals, values and ideals, instead of on the Quick Sand of Corporate GREED.
Trust in The Ideals and Values that made this Country Great.
Power to the People!
American Energy Independence in Ten years, for the sake of National Security and Sovereignty.

A Green Energy, Food Production and
Manufacturing Revolution.

How can we be free when we depend on Foreigners and Multi-National Corporations for our energy supply?
How can we defend ourselves when we have no manufacturing base?
We are Economically Defenseless.

The C.E.O.s have pulled off the biggest robbery of all time.
The largest transfer of wealth in History of the world,
From U.S. to them.
Billionaires-R-Us think they're entitled to everything.
What makes them so selfish?
Who teaches this BU__! SH__!?
Is this what they teach at Princeton and Harvard?
Unmitigated: GREED

Bush is the Bottom of the Barrel of the Aristocratic Trash Heap.
Bush thinks he can run roughshod over the American People.
W for WRONG Bush!
He is the problem.
Everything he touches turns to Shit!
The negative Human traits that he displays are the problem.
Selfishness and GREED got us into this mess and it will never get us out.
Leave it, Him and the Capital Imperialism rode in on, in the waste basket where they all belong.

Freedom comes at a price.
Eternal Vigilism.
It must be protected, extolled and nourished, so that everyone can share in natures bounty.

Giving more money to these greedy, morally corrupt Corporations is like pumping gasoline on a Fire.
We need dramatic change and sweeping reforms to create a new stable system.
Corporate regulation and Humanization is fundamental to this change.
End and reverse all cor-pirate Privatization.
Repatriate all of America’s Natural resources for National Security.
Cut the umbilical cord between the Multi-National Corporations and our Government Treasury.
End Corporate Socialism.
Kick out the Federal Reserve Bankers, they have failed U.S.
When Corporations want to do business here,
They will have to abide by a new set of rules and pay a use TAX.
Kick the lobbyists out of Washington.
Slam the Revolving Door, in big, bad, Business’s Face.

Take the money out of Politics.
Publicly fund all Elections.
Create a verifiable paper trail.
Scrap all the Diebold Black Box voting machines.
Guarantee that each and every vote is counted.
Level the Playing Field so that anyone can run for Political Office.
We need a larger cross section of our populace represented.

No Human Rights for a Corporation.
They are a Capital Appendage,
Citizens and People have Rights.
Corporate Machines have none.

Money has to be put back into the pockets of every American Citizen fast.
That system is crashing.
Let's move on.
When the Horse Dies?
Get OFF!
What have you got to lose?
We can do better!

Take back the Media.
Break up the Media Monopolies.
One outlet in one market.
We need a vibrant, flourishing, Local, Independent Media.

Join the Micro Democracy Revolution
It begins in your back yard.
Green energy production,
Organic vegetables,
Self sufficiency and
Higher Efficiency.

We can do it, if we try!
Aim high and shoot for the Stars.
Bring Heaven down to Earth.

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» Back To The Land Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Back To The Land Posted by: richholland
Nice
Posted by: RedFoxOne on Oct 11, 2008 6:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its pretty clear we have passed the point of no return and its only going to get worse. God help us all if that idiot McBush wins the election next month. If you ask me, Dictator Bush has single handedly DESTROYED this country! He is the bigggest Weapon of Mass Destruction of EVER go off in this country! Very sad indeed.

Jiff
Privacy Center

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» So Simple? Posted by: edgar1
» RE: The Whole Credit System Is A Fiction Posted by: wagnerrocks@gmail.com
» "A System That Can Never Work." Posted by: Last Chance
» Reality check Posted by: jbloggz
» Six Pack or Fight Posted by: edgar1
» RE: Nice Posted by: harryf200
» RE: Nice Posted by: donl51
» So why the surprize Red Fox? Posted by: aussidawg
The D word
Posted by: 8 nontheist on Oct 11, 2008 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua Holland, of AlterNet, & Barry Grey or Gray, of WSWS, have uttered the word depression today, 10/11/08. Two progressive sites are telling the full truth. When will the MSM start telling us that we're in a depression? Try the 12th of never. We have to clean up the mess from the melt-down & rergulate banking-finance with strong New-Deal style regulations at once. These regulations must be enforced by people who'll have the power to enforce these regulations strictly. Penalties for violating these regulations must be severe, enforced quickly with severe rigor. Swift, severe & sure punishment for all violations of the new requlations must be national policy. Regulations must be modified quickly when we see that they aren't producing desirable effects. The regulations must be fine tuned so that we can recover from this depression as soon as possible. Our legislators must learn to change unsuitable regulations & keep an eagle eye on those who enforce these regulations & the enterprises subject to the regulations. Excesses in enforcment can't be tolerated but nonenforcment & noncompliance can't be tolerated either. Supervised individual enterprise can function & prosper under these conditions so we can recover.

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fantasy senario...
Posted by: ellie on Oct 11, 2008 6:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ideas that might work but doubt it because the G7 is meeting with the IMF this weekend in DC, but here goes... (the big boys with the big stick are in town)and don't mean the G7...

wall street holiday until further notice... freeze the markets where they are until principle can be sorted out from credit and inflation... prove it or loose it...

a week bank freeze to let the dust settle so the banks can finally see what crap is on their books... bank runs??? hell, give folks a couple of days notice and limit withdrawals to cash in accounts, no borrowing allowed... folks will re-deposit after the freeze is lifted, if they have faith in their own banks...

make banks re-open according to credit union rules... including no $$ in the fund, no loans...

housing??? everyone dig out those original mortgage papers and drag them down to a central location for review... re-appraise all property back to historical price trends BEFORE prices jumped in the area... 30 year fixed, good to go, but adjust principal and property taxes to trends before boom... everyone else, 20% down, fixed rate 30 year... don't qualify, then rent at current re-appraised rate...

adjust minimum wage to a living wage not slave wages... reduce tax burden to ordinary people to 15% with no add ons...

big paychecks = big taxes maybe 50% to help mop up this mess...

restore gold standard for dollar... see credit union rules above...

this would be a start at getting back to the cost of goods produced and sold for a reasonable profit, melt away tons of stuff on the market people really don't need and knock off the speculation and greed that began this mess in the first place...

from the bottom up, this can be fixed... well, it's a good starting fantasy isn't it???

back to coffee...

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» RE: fantasy senario... Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Forgive debt.... Posted by: EJW
» RE: fantasy senario... Posted by: aussidawg
Federal Reserve Bank along with Fractional Banking Must Go
Posted by: 911FalseFlag on Oct 11, 2008 6:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just like in 2004, the Democratic presidential and vice presidential candidates are not being truthful about the fake war on terror, a false flag attack of 9/11, the scam of the Federal Reserve Bank and the easily hackable electronic voting machines and central tabulators.
The reason is that the Democrats have been completely complicit in all of the criminal actions and war crimes committed by Bush. If they blow the whistle, then they will be implicated.

Guess who the biggest campaign contributor to George W. Bush is? MBNA, a big credit card company. MBNA wrote the legislation that radically changed the bankruptcy laws in the US.
Predatory lending, which used to be the province of criminal loan sharks, is now the norm in the lending industry in the US.
Today's banking crisis is the THIRD trillion dollar plus US-caused financial meltdown in the last twenty years.
Each one of these crises came into being through the same basic mechanism...the fraudulent over-valuing of financial assets by Wall Street - with a "wink and a nod" (and sometimes a lot more) from the White House and Congress. The fraudulently valued assets stimulate the economy, impart the illusion of health and then, inevitably, the fraud goes too far and the whole house of card comes painfully crashing back to earth.
The White House stood in the way of any state prosecuting federal banks and mortgage companies for predatory lending. They actually used a portion of the enabling act creating the US Comptroller of the Currency to preempt the regulation and prosecution of these banks for fraudulent loan activities. This is why Eliot Spitzer was politically assassinated. He wrote an editorial in the Washington Post three weeks before his assassination accusing the White House of preventing any state Attorney General from prosecuting these criminal activities. Of course, the mainstream media did not report the actual reason that this politician’s sexual indiscretions were reported so immediately and excessively.

The mainstream media never reported on Bush planting in the White House press corps a gay escort, Johnny Gannon. Gannon based on the Secret Service records of visits to the White House visited the White House over 200 times and stayed overnight at least two times.

Go to my website, www.911insidejob.net and read many articles and watch videos on the well planned takedown of the US dollar by the Bush White House and the Federal Reserve Bank.

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» Phony Elliiot Posted by: edgar1
Inflate
Posted by: edgar1 on Oct 11, 2008 7:25 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our leaders are pumping trillions of fake money into the financial system. Print money to buy bad mortgages, buy stakes in troubled banks, provide capital to banks that should be raising capital on the market. Plus keep the deficit where it is now, and elect Obama who will pump up the money supply by at least another trillion in his new spending and tax "cuts". Of course his capital gain taxes will raise less than planned and income of the 'rich" will flee overseas or into shelters.

Inflation of unimagined proportions will be the result of these rescues of banks. Oil prices will again soar. Food and yes, even housing will increase. Incomes however will plunge, eroded by inflation and low productivity. The cowardly Fed will continue to keep rates low to keep the Obamaites happy, and unemployment will soar.

Lest anyone accuse me of partisanship, a similar scenario will happen with the inept McCain.

America has lived above its means. Time to pay.

The effect? Look at Germany and Italy after WWI. People will turn very nasty. I don't think illegal immigrants will be popular, and "multiculturalism" will be as dead as Lehman Bros.

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» RE: Inflate Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Inflate Posted by: aussidawg
» You're alone here . . . Posted by: 6399
THE HOUSING BUBBLE - COMPLETE FABRICATOIN
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 11, 2008 7:51 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The housing bubble simply meant that banks had loaned boatloads of money to developers to build houses, and they did. Many more than we needed. They had to be sold so the builders could repay the banks. First thing was to get rid of existing rules regarding loans. That was easy. The 'designer loan' was born and subsequently sold to buyers who were not informed of what they were about to do. Any financial instrument must be thoroughly explaned to a prospective buyer. That's the law. Cavea Emptor goes just so far. So the great American dream was made available to countless people. Had they known what the consequences were they would have walked away. A new form of debt was created all based on the assumption that the value of every house would increase. In retrospect it's easy to understand. A few years ago it was nothing more than wishful thinking and there were many warnings. But too many people were making too much money. So, how far is up? We just found out. How far is down remainins to be seen. While the great minds are figuring out the answers we have an obligation to keep as many people as possible in their homes. More than financial solutions and redesigning our economics this country and it's leaders have to grow a conscience. Thanks, ANNA

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» A Broader Perspective Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: A Broader Perspective Posted by: hilaryuk
» RE: THE HOUSING BUBBLE - HUH??? Posted by: left_libertarian
» Follow The Money Posted by: Last Chance
Welcome to the real world.
Posted by: symcokid on Oct 11, 2008 7:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Depression is already here and there is nothing that anybody can do about it, learn to live with it, work around it and give thanks to all of our so called experts and world leaders.

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» There Is Something You Can Do Posted by: Last Chance
The capitalist elites have already chosen Obama as next US President
Posted by: marxistsocialist on Oct 11, 2008 8:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The corporate elites have already chosen Obama as next US President

http://www.marxists.org/

corporate elites have already chosen Obama who will be the next corporate president. In most bourgeousie-republican electoralist systems presidents are chosen before elections. Elections are just circus for the wage-slaves and the sub-human herd

.

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» ....WRONG... Posted by: donl51
» Think Beyond Today Posted by: Last Chance
» Yu misunderstand Marxism! Posted by: harryf200
» RE: ....WRONG... Posted by: harryf200
» RE: ....WRONG...and again! Posted by: donl51
» RE: ....WRONG...and again! Posted by: harryf200
» RE: ....WRONG... Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: ....WRONG... Posted by: buzzsaw
» Decentralization Posted by: EJW
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
Posted by: susan rosenthal1 on Oct 11, 2008 8:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How many times must the working class bail out the capitalist system?

Enough is enough!

The only real solution to this crisis-ridden system is for the working class to take control of production and run the world for people, not profits. POWER and Powerlessness

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» Problem solved Posted by: Physiocrat
Pay for the wars as you go
Posted by: PaulK on Oct 11, 2008 11:01 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stieglitz estimates that over the long term the Iraq war cost more than $4 trillion already. We can probably add $.75 trillion per extra year beyond 2008.

This depression is not a Wall Street game, it's a Washington game. Wall Street just woke up. Halfway. Washington is sleepwalking through the crisis.

Giving a mere $700 billion U.S. dollars to the banks did not solve the problem. The U.S. Treasury is the problem.

To ameliorate the great depression, first stop the war. Then stop the Arctic methane bomb. Simultaneously, get us off coal first and oil second. Shift to self-heating houses, wind and solar electricity with pumped hydro storage (or equivalent), and mostly electric transit or electric vehicles. A series of electric battery swapping stations for cars would make L.A. quite drivable and smog-free too.

No bogus global warming plans from Washington, please. Corn ethanol takes a bit more oil to grow than it delivers in fuel, but government subsidies make the charade work. Nuclear plants have exactly the same problem. They are net oil consumers over their expected lifetimes, and that doesn't even count the leaks and loss of coolant accidents.

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