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Fundamentalist Camp Trains God's Little Army

By Evan Derkacz, AlterNet. Posted September 28, 2006.


The directors of the new documentary 'Jesus Camp' discuss the good, the bad, and the disharmony in the evangelical community.
092806story
God's Little Army

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They have billions in media holdings, the ear of the president, and the ability to make or break a Republican candidacy. To Becky Fischer, however, former manager of a custom sign business and current children's minister, evangelicals are in danger of losing the next generation. Unimpressed by the fact that 43 percent of America's 100 million evangelicals accepted Christ before the age of 13, Fischer set out to ensure that a new generation of Americans are instilled with a "Christian worldview." "If we wait until they are teens," she remarks, "we have waited too late!"

You've probably seen the ads on the internet of an all-American girl, eyes skyward, the spitting image of a beatific Medieval icon painting. Against the backdrop of the Samuel Alito hearings, "Jesus Camp" follows 11-year-old Tory and a pack of young campers at Kids On Fire Summer Camp, which is the basic training for "God's army." Fischer is Kids On Fire's drill sergeant, and her mission is to empower kids to heal "this ... sick old world." Fischer's zeal is infectious, her belief unshakable, and her will strong. It's not difficult to see why the filmmakers were delighted to find her.

The kids, some of whom are jarringly precocious ("Because I just wanted more of life," one says), are respectful and supportive of one another, attentive to their elders and as humorously oblivious about the secular world as most AlterNet readers are about the evangelical reality. A clip over the closing credits features a young girl who approaches a pair of elderly gentlemen in folding chairs to ask if they know where they're going when they die. After they confidently assert that they're going to heaven, the girl wanders away, uttering offhand to her companion that she thought they might be Muslims.

The age of the kids (some as young as 6 years old) combined with Fischer's bellicose language (she openly refers to their mission as "war"), will undoubtedly make some, as filmmaker Heidi Ewing says below, "pretty uncomfortable." In that sense, "Jesus Camp" doubles as a perfectly entertaining horror flick for secular progressives -- or anyone outside the evangelical community, for that matter. But to leave it at that would be wildly off the mark and just as parochial as the triumphalist evangelicals depicted.

I've argued in PEEK that, just as progressives urge fearful conservatives to probe the phenomenon of terrorism, so must secular progressives probe the activist evangelical mindset. On the other hand, it's natural for a nonevangelical to be utterly turned off by some of the politically charged elements of the film, most of which are aired without counterpoint.

My response to Jesus Camp is similar to the nagging feeling that followed Errol Morris' brilliant Fog of War. That film, you'll recall, was essentially a conversation with Vietnam-era Secretary of Defense Robert Strange McNamara. The 86-year-old McNamara comes off looking like a contrite old man, consumed by self-deception, peppered with startling statements like, "We were behaving as war criminals."

My desire for a ferocious counterargument and an overarching condemnation left me feeling nervous about whether the proper gravity had been afforded the subject. Likewise, although "Jesus Camp" includes a few clips from Air America's liberal Christian host, Mike Papantonio, the rhetoric of Becky Fischer, Ted Haggard and the rest of the film's cast of characters simply sits on screen; take it or leave it.

In the final tally, access has its price, and art should not be polemical. Filmmakers Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady sought to make art and received access in exchange. That access ironically provides opponents with a great deal of insight into this political powerhouse, should they choose to approach it with courage and the desire to see the community's humanity. As they say below, "If people have a problem with what they're doing then they should take a page out of the playbook and start to get involved themselves." Amen.

In most cases, Ewing and Grady, who are close friends as well as co-directors, spoke as any couple would. Which is to say, over each other and finishing each other's sentences. When it was important to separate their responses, I did so (as in the case with their backgrounds). Otherwise, the answers can be seen as a coming from "the directors." -- Ed.

Derkacz: So what inspired you to make "Jesus Camp"? Why now?

Heidi and I were looking for a story about children and faith, and we were inspired by a child from our last film, the "Boys of Baraka," Devon, who was a Baptist preacher, a 12-year-old. He really provoked us to start thinking about where faith comes from: Why is one kid more devout than another? Where does that come from? How does that happen?


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Evan Derkacz is AlterNet's associate editor and writer of PEEK, the blog of blogs.

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What a bunch Idiots
Posted by: spacemarine83 on Sep 28, 2006 12:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Talk about morons, nevermind the child-abuse issues... instead look at the people who will be running our country someday. Jackbooted assholes who would be just as likely kill a person for personal, political and monitary gain. Oh wait, just like Bush... F-ing religion, we dont need it!

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» RE: What a bunch Idiots Posted by: otto
» Achtung, Baby Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Achtung, Baby Posted by: mike1997
» RE: Achtung, Baby Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Achtung, Baby Posted by: Bibs
» RE: Achtung, Baby Posted by: punkbuster
» Semantics and clarity Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Achtung, Baby Posted by: kungfuma
» Re: we are outnumbered by the idiots Posted by: velvel of atlanta
» RE: What a bunch Idiots Posted by: mostacks
» RE: What a bunch Idiots Posted by: billfaster
» Creation and Evolution Posted by: dna
» RE: What a bunch Idiots Posted by: Bibs
» RE: What a bunch Idiots Posted by: spacemarine83
faith
Posted by: rsaxto on Sep 28, 2006 12:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the whole idea of faith and its attached dogmas consists of an error of judgement in faithful people. We should be so attached to reality that we can do the right thing scientifically and morally without believing in dogmas most of which are false. In addition, using the word war in a religious context is a clear indicator that the particular faith using it is going down an immoral and destructive path which will harm humanity rather than helping us. All societies obscessed with war are creating their own doom.

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» RE: faith Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: faith Posted by: mikewarren
homegrown fundamentalist
Posted by: ShoShenQ on Sep 28, 2006 1:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
way to go america !!

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home boy
Posted by: rock on Sep 28, 2006 2:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
religion is for heretics(sic) [I don't know how to spell]
get that?

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home boy
Posted by: rock on Sep 28, 2006 2:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
religion is for heretics(sic) [I don't know how to spell]
get that?
religion has to do with belief.
politics has to do with being polite.
Should we be polite or be beligerent?

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» RE: home boy Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: home boy Posted by: 10wwjd29
home boy
Posted by: rock on Sep 28, 2006 2:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
religion is for heretics(sic) [I don't know how to spell]
get that?
religion has to do with belief.
politics has to do with being polite.
Should we be polite or be belligerent?

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» RE: home boy Posted by: Bibs
America's little Red Guards
Posted by: Moonray on Sep 28, 2006 4:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those of us of a certain age remember the Red Guards, the fanatical youngsters who terrorized China on behalf of Mao Tse-tung.

Those of us even older remember the Hitler Youth that goose-stepped in support of the Nazis' conquest of Europe.

These little Jesus freaks are cut from the same cloth as their German and Chinese cousins -- as well as their radical Moslem cousins now burning U.S. flags around the world.

Unfortunately, Americans have elevated superstition, in the form of religion, to equality with reason in our culture and in our government. That error is the source of many of our problems at home and abroad.

As long as religion is treated as a valid belief system equally deserving of respect and legal legitmacy as logic and science, our society will continue its drift toward theocratic tyranny and political foolishness.

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» RE: America's little Red Guards Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» mao and stalin were atheists Posted by: gerdhansel
» Hitler & Mao Posted by: vangogh69
» RE: mao and stalin were atheists..sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: America's little Red Guards Posted by: billfaster
» RE: America's little Red Guards Posted by: Tiffany Twain
brainwashing
Posted by: SekhmetsatRa on Sep 28, 2006 4:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"if your brain is so dirty, why object to having it washed?"
A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

any time i see, hear or read "brainwashing", i think of that quote...

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» RE: brainwashing Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: brainwashing Posted by: SekhmetsatRa
» RE: brainwashing Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: brainwashing Posted by: SekhmetsatRa
» RE: brainwashing Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: brainwashing Posted by: Trazom
» RE: brainwashing Posted by: SekhmetsatRa
beware
Posted by: aislinnluv on Sep 28, 2006 4:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
make no mistake - these are dangerous people. children are very vulnerable to indoctrination by unscrupulous elders, whether their parents or others to whom their parents entrust them. for children to be so politicized as to rejoice at the resignation of Sandra Day O'Connor is alarming. children should be allowed a period of innocence, a time when they can look around and discover the world without the stresses that will become a part of their daily lives as adults. these children are being robbed of that, forced to assume anxieties about the fate of a world that cannot be enhanced by this regimentation and thought-policing. what happens if a child speaks out in opposition to some of these extreme tenets? do they all unanimously accept everything they are told or is there a child that asks questions? what happens then? i fear for these children and i fear for the country and the world if this type of brainwashing is allowed to continue.

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» RE: beware Posted by: markusmark
» RE: beware Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: beware Posted by: Sparks56
Fundamentalists thrive on fear and
Posted by: wawa on Sep 28, 2006 5:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It has been said that evolution is being held up by fundamentalism and the surge of fundamentalism throughout all faith paths sends shivers through cynical atheists and mystics alike. The bumper sticker actually did get it right: "We are spiritual beings having a human experience."

According to the 1987 classic, "The Different Drum: Community Making and Peace", Dr. Scott Peck defines the spiritual life as fluid and that one may pass back and forth repeatedly through any of the four-probably more-stages of the soul.

Stage one upon this journey -that begins from within-is essentially our infancy in the spiritual life. Like a wild child, a person in this stage reflects the inner chaotic and anti-social, unregenerate soul that is interested only in its own self-satisfaction and ego, much like the stereotypical spoiled child. Stage one people may claim to love others, but their behavior reflects they love their own pleasure, money, power, prestige, and security above any other. For stage one people, it really is all about them.

The good news is that the vast majority of humanity responds to that inner tug which is God, for lack of a better word. Katherine of Sienna wrote that within us all is the divine diamond. But life and all our baggage dulls the flame of our divine brilliance. Stage two souls seek to "let their light shine" and will live virtuous lives and do many good works. They also can be judgmental of others, self-righteous, rigid of thought, cold of heart, legalistic concrete literal thinkers and may even be guilty of a lukewarm faith. They want to do right and they even may desire to love and please God, but have not yet fully opened up to the Inner Light, as Joan of Ark did when she challenged church and state and persisted that she had intuited God within even as she was fried.

Stage two souls have not yet been set fully free and prefer the security of a higher human authority than themselves for guidance. They submit to institutions, scripture, dogma, ritual, ministers, or gurus. This is the most appropriate stage for older children and most adults who live busy lives just trying to keep bread on the table and a dry roof above.

The difference between a stage one and stage two soul, is that a one wouldn't even notice a neighbor in need, while the two has awoken to the fact that we are to be our neighbor's keepers and they will respond to a friend-and like the good Samaritan, even to a total stranger in need.

Most theologians would agree that the opposite of faith is not disbelief: the opposite of faith is fear.


Stage three souls have not just fearlessly awoken, they have evolved! This evolution has led them to the realization...

-Excerpted from "Mystics in the Marketplace"
http://www.opednews.com/author/author1112.html

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scary
Posted by: aislinnluv on Sep 28, 2006 6:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i just saw the woman who runs this camp on good morning america (for the second day in a row). believe me, folks, this woman is frightening! she inveighs against disney as being filled with witches... (ok, have any of us grown into monsters watching disney films or reading grimm?) she castigates the harry potter books as worshipping a warlock, the "enemy of god" (so far as i know, the main characters of the books are pretty decent characters, and the bad guys, though also witches, are identifiable, separable, and in opposition to the good witches). harking back to the salem trials and other famous witch hunts, it is obvious when people are stigmatized by labels solely because they aren't hewing to the same party line as the labellers. the twisted thinking this woman exhibits is the same kind of thinking that could bring about another kristallnacht.

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» AGREE 10,000%, aislinluv Posted by: Michiganman
These people are for real
Posted by: Dale Dressler on Sep 28, 2006 6:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In Will Campbell's book, Brother a Dragonfly, he tells of his time marching with Martin Luther King and fighting for civil rights. At the end of the book he sits on the front porch with the leader of the KKK and talks with him to learn about his journey and to try to understand him. Campbell wonders, as an individual, when did he do the most good.

These people are real and they are not going away. Rather than berate thier views and call them names as many of of the posters have done, maybe we should try learn about thier jorney and try to understand them. The filmeakers have given us a wonderful opoortunity to do just that.

I would also recomend another great documentary to try to understand conservative Christians. Its called Hell House. (The conservative Christian alternative to Haunted Houses) Take particular notice toward the end when some foul mothed "liberal" youths try to bait one of the organizers of Hell House. I know who I would like to spend a day with rocking on his front porch and have a civilized conversation.

I also worry that reactionary liberals might also lump the rest of us "Camp" people into the same group as the folks you see in Jesus Camp. I am the director of a United Church of Christ Camp in Indiana. I can tell you that we erected a peace pole this summer and - along with thousands of other camps this past summer used the Natioinal Council of Churches curriculum, "Peace Talks". We are doing good work for the future of our planet. These people are for real and if we don't stop making war with them with nasty words and rather try to understand them and influence our children in a more civilized manner we are indeed in trouble.

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» so are my concerns Posted by: aislinnluv
I wonder where this is going (Part I)
Posted by: LMNOP on Sep 28, 2006 6:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"They have billions in media holdings, the ear of the president, and the ability to make or break a Republican candidacy. "

Yet, to hear them tell it, they are an oppressed, persecuted minority that just wants every else to stop trying to obliterate God from their lives.

"If we wait until they are teens," she remarks, "we have waited too late!"

This is *so* Hitler youth.

""Jesus Camp" doubles as a perfectly entertaining horror flick for secular progressives "

Yeah, Dawn of the Dead. "More brains!"

"just as progressives urge fearful conservatives to probe the phenomenon of terrorism, so must secular progressives probe the activist evangelical mindset."

Muslim terrorists and politicized conservative evangelicals: what's the difference? Let's see: both fundamentalist zealots (check), both on a holy crusade (check), both have training and indoctrination camps (check), both think that they are fighting for God (check), both unwilling to listen to anyone outside of their group and intolerant of other views (check). [Other Christians need not be offended - this is not a criticism of your faith, but of a conservative political movement in its name.]

"they don't consider themselves political at all. So they take issue with the concept that they're politically active, although we maintain that what they consider a moral life -- you know, doing "God's will" -- appears political to a lot of people."

This is a major crock of horse excrement. Doing God's will appears political? Not if what you mean by doing God's will is living a private life decently.

But if you include rewriting the school curricula, diverting tax dollars to evangelistic projects, enacting biblical laws and standards regarding abortion and profanity, directing domestic cloning policy and world reproductive policy according to biblical standards, posting religious doctrine in courtrooms and schools, stuffing the Congress and courts with conservative Christian activists. If you include any of that, well, then "just doing God's" will is pretty friggin' political.

"what they consider a moral life -- you know, doing "God's will" -- appears political to a lot of people. [They believe t]hat the Constitution is based on the Ten Commandments"

What better evidence that these people have completely surrendered their ability to think and have substituted the judgment of their propagandists that they are not political or that the Constitution has anything to do with the Ten Commandments? There is ZERO overlap between those documents.

One tells individuals what to do (honor parents, observe the Sabbath) and not do (steal, kill, envy, worship false idols). The other tells what the purpose of a government is and how that government will be organized - nothing about right and wrong or do and don't.

But it suits their reverie that it be so, and so it is declared and so it is absorbed, uncritically.

"they believe that their vote counts and that they can make changes, and they're going to do that until further notice"

But they're not political. They don't have a political agenda. How uninsightful is that? ("Yes, more brains.")

To those Christians who consider religion a personal choice and not something to impose on the community at large, these people are trouble just as to we American liberals, the present government is big trouble. They're big trouble because they don't represent our viewpoints and they make us look bad to outsiders (non-Christians and non-Americans) who don't make distinctions between what we in the minority believe and what is done in our name against our wills by the empowered elites.

CONT.

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» AGREE 10,000% ssegallmd Posted by: Michiganman
Constitution based on Ten Commandments?
Posted by: Trazom on Sep 28, 2006 6:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, there's an inherent problem here, which is that there is a massive number of Americans who do believe that the founding fathers intended to found a much more Christian state. That the Constitution is based on the Ten Commandments. There are a lot of people who will tell you that, who believe that to be true.

Can someone please tell me where in the US Constitution there is a reference to anything contained in the Ten Commandments? I am really at a loss at that statement.

I saw a bumper sticker the other day and if I were to ever buy one this would be it:

"Rational thought is my religion".

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The Kids are Alright
Posted by: YogiBear on Sep 28, 2006 6:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm not as worried about the kids as others are. You know, the bigger the setup, the harder they'll fall.

That's because doing everything God's way puts an enormous pressure on individuals to be good, when we're all just fumbling our way through life. Those of us who aren't Christian soldiers make mistakes, admit them and are on our way. But in God's camp, no one can make mistakes of faith, because if they do, their community will set upon them like a pack of wolves.

I thought the hypocrisy of the excessively faithful was pretty accurately portrayed in the a dark comedy "Saved." So, for most of these kids, they'll leave the camp with their spirits in the air and somewhere down the line, life will bring it back down for them. Kids aren't stupid -- if there's anything less than truthful being taught at that camp, they'll figure it out.

Sure, some of them will go one to spout theology and take the world by storm, but most are just doing what their parents think is right and probably will end up bigger sinners than their schoolmates. Like those kids who sign abstinence pledges; the "failure" rate is higher than kids who don't sign. Maybe because they're more honest with their parents, maybe because they're more honest with themselves.

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» RE: The Kids are Alright Posted by: Domokun
» RE: The Kids are Alright Posted by: Techubus
» RE: The Kids are Alright Posted by: yellow
» RE: The Kids are Alright Posted by: vangogh69
» RE: The Kids are Alright Posted by: yellow
» RE: The Kids are Alright Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: The Kids are Alright Posted by: toddaa
» RE: The Kids are Alright Posted by: yellow
The bible in part is a book of war
Posted by: jpinder on Sep 28, 2006 6:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are alsmost 1000 references of violence in the babble, so it is for me a book of war and revenge, no surprise there really.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

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Yes, this is abuse - brain washing/mind control.
Posted by: symcokid on Sep 28, 2006 6:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bringing out a cutout silouhette of the "Anti Christ", George W. Bush, so as to solicit praise and adoration is sick and abuse. This is a captive young impressionable Jesus Camp audience, tying it in with War and Onward Christian Soldier religious dogma is abhorrent and scary!

Diane Sawyer of Good Morning America did two segments on this Evangelical propaganda.

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First Hand Experience!!!
Posted by: lively56 on Sep 28, 2006 6:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can tell everyone from first hand experience what brainwashing can do to a young mind. I was raised Amish, and I can tell you that the fear of hell was instilled in me at an early age. I can still remember a statement my father made to one of my older Bro's, as if he said it today. That was about 40 years ago. My Bro. wanted to go out in the world and explore what was out there. My dad told him that he would rather bury him 6 feet under in the front yard then see him go out in the world. I was 13 years old at the time. I thought to myself then, what an aweful statement that was. It took me another 6 years to get up enough courage to rid myself of that type of tyranny. Let me tell you, all the nice things you here about the Amish are a bunch of bunk. There is so much abuse and rape of the young children, it boggles the mind. But somehow they have so much power over law enforcement, that they just look the other way.

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» Interesting Posted by: Philip Newton
» "Not Encouraged" Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: Interesting Posted by: lively56
» RE: Interesting Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Interesting Posted by: Plexius
» RE: Interesting Posted by: sloopy312
» RE: Interesting Posted by: Plexius
Christianity is a mental illness
Posted by: rhinojos on Sep 28, 2006 6:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What else can you say about people that adhere to teachings of a "bible" that is based on borrowed fairy tales form various cultures throughout the ages and re-packaged as something called Christianity? Very delusional!

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» RE: Christianity is a mental illness Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Christianity is a mental illness Posted by: Philip Newton
Holy Rollers
Posted by: ccluelessfl60 on Sep 28, 2006 6:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Holy Rollers is what we called them years ago when they had store front churches and they are still holy rollers.

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Laurence
Posted by: peaceyogi on Sep 28, 2006 7:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From Book: HOW TO KNOW GOD
Page 173
CHAPTER III
POWERS (Read #40)
40. By controlling the nerve-currents that govern the lungs and the upper part of the body, the yogi can walk on water and swamps, or on thorns and similar objects, and he can die at will.

41. By controlling the force which governs the prana, he can surround himself with a blaze of light.

This is the force which regulates the various functions of the vital energy (prana). One of the brother-disciples of Sri Ramakrishna actually had this power; and it is recorded that he once used it to light the path for Ramakrishna on a dark night. However, Ramakrishna later found it necessary to take the power away from him because it was making him dangerously egotistic.



42. By making samyama on the relation between the ear and the ether, one obtains supernatural powers of hearing.

43. By making samyama on the relation between the body and the ether, or by acquiring through meditation the lightness of cotton fiber, the yogi can fly through the air.

44. By making samyama on the thought-waves of the mind when it is separated from the body-the state known as the Great Disincarnation-all coverings can be removed from the light of knowledge.

Like aphorism 39, this refers to the yoga power of withdrawing the mind from one's own body in order to make it pass into the body of another. In this state of withdrawal, the "Great Disincarnation," the mental coverings composed of rajas and tamas dwindle away and the light of sattwa is revealed.

45. By making samyama on the gross and subtle forms of the elements, on their essential characteristics and the inherence of the gunas in them, and on the experiences they provide for the individual, one gains mastery of the elements.

46. Hence one gains the power of becoming as tiny as an atom and all similar powers; also perfection of the body, which is no longer subject to the obstructions of the elements.

Not only can the yogi become as tiny as an atom but as huge as a mountain, as heavy as lead, or as light as air. And the elements cease to obstruct him. He can pass through rock. He can hold his hand in the fire, unburned. He can walk through water, unwetted. He can stand firm against a hurricane.

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» WOW pass some of that..... Posted by: Michiganman
An Open & Questioning Mind
Posted by: NoPCZone on Sep 28, 2006 7:37 AM   
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The best thing any parent can give their kid is an open and questioning mind that does not accept things just because someone tells them to but because there is a real and compelling body of evidence. The blind acceptance of dogma, anyone's dogma, is not in the interest of any person or society as a whole.

Extremism and radicalism are fueled by blind acceptance of their version of the truth. They oppose and fear and open and informed mind as it will undermine their fear and lies.

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The christian Madrassas
Posted by: rixter on Sep 28, 2006 7:44 AM   
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Something I didn't see mentioned in the previews I've seen of the film "Jesus Camp" and that I doubt is fully explored in the documentary is the intense pressure that was put on these 'willing' children before they appeared on film looking so comfortable with their plight. As a young boy I was once sent to what was then (60's) referred to as a christian 'retreat'. It was actually a 4 day intense brainwashing attempt, culminating nightly in massed meetings in an assembly hall where small children were threatened with hell's torments and exhorted to grovel before the cults altar in 'surrender to god' and to 'accept Jesus as your saviour'. The mental and emotional pressure cooker atmosphere was intense and I now realize very much purposely crafted. Hysterical children were crying all around me and trudging towards the stage to obey the speaker, with what later degree of commitment I do not know. I do know now as a middle-aged adult that my strength of will in resisting those imprecations and indoctrinations was in part my own 'personal saviour' and I have never forgotten the experience. How much worse the conditions under which these children live? I had a few days of it, these children of fundamentalists experience it daily from earliest memory and can only escape at adulthood if at all. If they seem to wear their chains of indoctrination lightly, remember they have often carried them from earliest memory.

Make no mistake, there is -no- difference between the Muslim, Christian and Jewish radical fundamentalists except in the details of their dogma. All are addicted to and dependent on their cults, all are quite certain they carry the One True Word in their book, and every last one believes sincerely that they are gods chosen messengers and therefore not responsible for the harm they do and the violence they support, -all- crave the power only a state theocracy can wield to enforce their belief system on others and to oppress non-believers. And every last one of them do all they can to raise their children in an atmosphere where their chosen dogmas are the only beliefs known, seen, discussed, understood, or accepted. Intolerance of ideas outside their dogma is the one universal truth every last one of these cults share. And contrary to what you will often hear, most of that intolerance is directed inwards towards their own families and peers, with constant examination and interrogation of belief and behavior, and quick criticism and punishment for 'sins' against the 'sacred' belief system. Organized religion and corporate plutocracy are the two most violent, oppressive and thoroughly evil forces threatening human society today. May God, if he is watching, give us the grace to save ourselves from them both.
www.RixterTech.com

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» RE: The christian Madrassas Posted by: symcokid
» RE: The christian Madrassas Posted by: freerain
» RE: The christian Madrassas Posted by: rixter
» RE: The christian Madrassas Posted by: DaBear
PALOOKA
Posted by: PALOOKA on Sep 28, 2006 7:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THE WAR IN THE HEAVENS

Ewing and Grady: He really provoked us to start thinking about where faith comes from: Why is one kid more devout than another? Where does that come from? How does that happen?

Did Ewig and Grady come even close to answering this question for themselves? For us? I doubt it. In fact, somewhere along the line they totally lost track of their intended goal.

We can call it religion, good or bad. We can call it pedegogy. And it is a form of that for sure. We can call it positive or negative child development, depending one's view. We can call it child abuse. We can call it brainwashing. And so on. And we would not necessarily be wrong. And, in some cases, we would likely be right. But we would NOT be referring to the causal affect. The causal affect is IMPRINTS... genetic pre-disposition woven into the dna fabric just as significant and just as influencial as the strands that determine hair color or dominant handedness or vulnerability to certain diseases or pre-disposition to addiction, etc, etc, etc.

To put it another way, squirrils pick up nuts because they are squirrils! Alcoholics drink because they are alcoholics. But are the nuts causal? Is alcohol causal?

Now, I'm certain some, and perhaps many, will consider this a huge stretch. BUT, what is going on here is a REFLECTION of pre-existing pre-dispositions. And I'll take it even further, it is a reflection of the un-resolved WAR IN THE HEAVENS. Thats right, the so-called war between good and evil which was a battle of points of view. Of differentiated interpretations. Of differentiated images. Of realities. Played out in an electro-magnetic event of what, at the time, were the energies of the universe.

Its energy. Ever play with magnets? Those are incredible forces. Which is what we all are. Energy. In some primative form we were all part of that un-resolved war in the heavens. Un-resolved because it is still playing out today. Its just that the form has changed. But its the same war. Thats why we are in Iraq. Thats what the so-called war on terror is really all about. And the underlying forces are just as incredible as ever.

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» RE: PALOOKA Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: PALOOKA Posted by: aislinnluv
» Way too much time..... Posted by: Michiganman
100 million evangelicals?
Posted by: dstauff on Sep 28, 2006 7:54 AM   
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I'm not quite sure where the author came up with this number. The 2001 US census data lists out of 207 million adults, 159 million christians of which 50 million are catholic and 33 million baptist. In fact catholics represent the single largest christian denomination in the U.S., only 1 million identified themselves as "evangelical". While I don't disagree with the main points of the piece, I think such hyperbole is unnecessary.

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And the dead will walk the Earth...
Posted by: Roverton on Sep 28, 2006 8:19 AM   
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All fundamentalists use their own children as weapons.

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WHICH "one true God?" There are hundreds. . .
Posted by: monkeywrench on Sep 28, 2006 8:29 AM   
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Did I miss something? Could someone please explain to me the difference between "Jesus Camp" and the madrassas of the Middle East? Apparently, the difference lies only in the particular form of propelling religious dogma for each, and the fact that "Jesus Camps" are not associated with their graduates making good on their indoctrination to give their lives for Jesus –– YET.

Does this sound familiar? It should. Today we are seeing the logical progression of another religion that teaches, at an early age, some of its followers to give their lives for its spiritual leader –– and innocents around the world are being beheaded and blown up as a result. And in "Jesus Camps," religious fervor in children too young to know better is channelled to the near-worship of a political leader, in our case, one George Bush. This eerily parallels the wedding of fundamentalist religion and political servitude that has been responsible for the slaughter of millions worldwide in the name of one or another of literally dozens of "religions." Is this what we want as a possibility for our future?

If the Age of Reason has died, to be replaced by a recycling of the Dark Ages, we're finished.

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Terrorists?
Posted by: Philip Newton on Sep 28, 2006 8:37 AM   
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Dekcacz typifies Evangelicals as "child abusers" and compares Evangelicals to "terrorists."

Fascinating.

I find the sexualization of children as young as 3 by our nation's fashion industry child abuse. I find the killing and mutilating of millions of Christians, Jews and other "infidels" by Muslim fanatics terrifying.

But Dekcacz would rather portray Bible study as child abuse.

Thankfully, the makers of this film -- who actually met with the people Dekcacz so unthinkingly slurs -- do not share his prejudiced, knee-jerk mindset. They should be commended for a balanced viewpoint regarding something they do not necessarily understand or agree with.

Very...democratic.

Peace.

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» Terrorists? Posted by: james2021
» RE: Terrorists? Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Terrorists? Posted by: yellow
» RE: Terrorists? Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Terrorists? Posted by: PEEK
» RE: Terrorists? Posted by: Philip Newton
Keep it up
Posted by: Philip Newton on Sep 28, 2006 8:49 AM   
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Keep driving that wedge between progressives and the mainstream working class, Mr. Derkacz.

Then, when the rest of the nation looks at you and sees the "loony Left," don't wonder why you are "out of step" with the very Americans you need to move a progressive agenda, thereby ensuring Republican hegemony.

Unless, of course, you are merely intersted in venting your spleen on people of faith.

Welcome to...what's the word?

Irrelevance.

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» RE: Keep it up Posted by: lively56
» RE: Keep it up Posted by: Philip Newton
» Phillip, guilt often.... Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Phillip, guilt often.... Posted by: Philip Newton
Religion is blatant deception and purposeful brainwashing
Posted by: SeverelyJaded on Sep 28, 2006 8:56 AM   
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The fact that religious leaders claim to be preaching truth and wisdom when they are consistently unable to understand what either of those two concepts means is highly instructive. While bedeviling us with their holier-than-thou pretenses, they consistently perform blatant evil. A very long list of authors and researcher have proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Christianity and Jesus Christ are purposeful deceptions by the Roman Empire. Two millennia of history have given us an amazingly long list of Vatican evils as stark and undeniable proofs of who they really are, despite what they say.

Likewise, the following Washington Post article (The Book of Bart) describes how many changes and embellishments were made to New Testament texts over the centuries, unequivocally demonstrating they are not original, infallible, or truthful. Nonetheless, religious followers regularly claim the exact opposite while fighting tooth and nail to hide the truth about stunning proof of Christian fraud and lies exposed by finds like the Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hammadi Codexes and more.

The fact that religion is so readily proven to be blatant deception shows that deluded followers are suffering from purposeful exploitation leading to demonstrable mental illness. Jesus Camp is just one more body of proof that religion is the opposite of truth, wisdom, and justice and interferes with one's ability to reason clearly. It is also actionable proof of widespread child abuse. The Catholic Church's leadership has been the source of widespread physical child rape and these idiots are raping them mentally. While complaining about muslim jihad schools, Americans are doing the very same thing by brainwashing children in various ways.

The only way this will ever end is to help people understand proof of the true nature of these religions and to take the Vatican, religious leaders, and politicians to task for imposing this blatant evil upon the world. Make no mistake about it, this is evil and it does not deserve to be repsected. It is beyond obvious that religion guarantees future wars and widespread insanity. Now is the time to stand up for truth and justice.

Here is Wisdom...

...And More...

Peace…

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» Off topic, but.... Posted by: CatDad
bible thumping crazies
Posted by: BuckFush on Sep 28, 2006 9:03 AM   
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Crazy fucking bible thumping brainwashers don't deserve this much media attention.

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» RE: bible thumping crazies Posted by: grolan
» RE: bible thumping crazies Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: bible thumping crazies Posted by: lively56
» RE: bible thumping crazies Posted by: Philip Newton
» What a load of....... Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: What a load of....... Posted by: Philip Newton
HIGH ON GOD
Posted by: Ahimsa on Sep 28, 2006 9:07 AM   
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If anybody has ever participated in an ecstatic ritual (be it hindu, lakota, sufi, hasidic jew or evangelist christian) they'll know how high one gets through certain practices. These are ages-old methods, evangelists are not unique in that regard.
The "intense" prayer, the singing, the repetition are mechanisms that induce a state of ecstasy in the worshipper. The experience is pleasurable and exhilarating, easy to get hooked on, and very therapeutic.
That is the "joy" we are talking about. It is easy to get high on God, all you need is the willingness to do it (the Faith...)
I know this from experience.
Of course those kids are going to look joyful! They are!
I don't defent this, but can you blame anyone for living in a bubble? Furthermore, does the fish know it lives in water?

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» RE: HIGH ON GOD Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: HIGH ON GOD Posted by: may261989
Cultists
Posted by: grolan on Sep 28, 2006 9:53 AM   
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These people are cultists, no different than any other cult. They are taking vulnerable, unformed young minds and programming them with superstitious beliefs and a magical worldview that is completely divorced from reality. And they are very dangerous, because they are becoming a majority. It sickens me to think of what they're doing to those kids' minds - just watching that little boy, 5 years old, regurgitate their programming, "because I just wanted more of life", it turned my stomach. He's 5, what the hell does he know of "life"?

Be afraid, folks. Get motivated politically and defeat these people at the polls, or they will set the rules by which we must live, and America will indeed become an officially "christian" nation.

It breaks my heart to see what's becoming of this country - and I just don't understand it. What is motivating these people? Why do they feel the need to turn their backs on the principles upon which this country was founded, and on science, and embrace magical thinking, and program their kids with the same? Why are they reaching back to the middle ages? It's widespread, but I just fail to see what it is that drives them. It's like 60% of Americans have been replaced by pod people.

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Be Afraid Be VERY Afraid
Posted by: pmerino on Sep 28, 2006 10:18 AM   
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And we worry about terrorist training camps abroad!

Folks, we have them right here are they are called "jesus camps"!!

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Yes, It Is Child Abuse!
Posted by: thirdmg on Sep 28, 2006 10:40 AM   
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Inevitably, many of the kids who undergo this kind of fierce indoctrination will eventually discover that they are gay. At that time, the hidden toxin of self-hatred will be automatically activated as they compare what they actually are to the pure ideal of the "Christian" identity they've internalized. Even if they survive the psychological conflict and don't self-destruct, they are likely to be burdened with serious inner conflict throughout the rest of their lives. They are as clearly victims of child abuse as those who have been sexually abused.

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Fascism and Youth.
Posted by: yellow on Sep 28, 2006 10:55 AM   
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Althroughout modern history fascist element has used and abused the nation's young people for political purposes. Hitler had the Hitler youth and the Brownshirts. Mussolini had the blackshirt movement which strenuously marched kids all over the place in city parades and rallies. Brainwashing the youth has always been an essential part of the routine due to its effectiveness in (a) training future leaders and supporters, and (b) assuring that the youth, a politically volitile group, remain in support of the regime and its agenda. Now America has clerico-fascism. So what else is new?

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The Longer I Live...
Posted by: mizkaye on Sep 28, 2006 11:10 AM   
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...the more I see, hear and read, the more I'm convinced I am doing the right thing by keeping my children out of the church. This sort of thinking and teaching is what I got to grow up with and it is militant at it's core. Our youth group even wore 'uniforms' that we decorated with 'medals' after completing 'missions'. (Memorizing certain bible verses, bringing a friend to church, witnessing to a 'sinner', etc.) We sang hymns telling us we were 'Christian soldiers, marching as to war!' and we were encouraged to wear our battle armor proudly. I clearly remember being told that my girlfriends at school that wore pants (we weren't allowed to wear pants...fundamental Baptist) were sinners who wanted to show off their bodies and they would burn in hell for doing so. I was 8yrs old!!!

Now I am the mother of 3, and there is no way on this earth I would take my children into a church. And I live in Alabama so you can imagine what a freak I am in my own community! LOL!

Now I see this woman on tv saying she wants Christian children to be just as enthusiastic as Muslim children in their faith and I am more convinced that raising my children as atheists is the right thing to do...southern holy rollers be damned.

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» a holdout in texas Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: The Longer I Live... Posted by: yellow
» RE: The Longer I Live... Posted by: yellow
» RE: The Longer I Live... Posted by: may261989
WWGD -- "What Would Google Do"
Posted by: LeslieGem on Sep 28, 2006 1:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing like reading an article about the treat of radical christo-facists with a bunch of "intelligent" Google advertisements for radical christo-facist websites. I guess we all better send in $20 so Alternet can take this crap off the website.

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My beef with em' (not that anyone asked)
Posted by: vangogh69 on Sep 28, 2006 1:14 PM   
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I was brought up in the church and can say that no, it's not all shit and religion gives you some good coping skills to get on in life. The church is a place where men and women, young and old, can attempt to connect to a deeper reality, a place where they can feel at home or in love. Some of the warmest people I've met have been Christians. But...

The list is long for the sins of the church, hell, for religion in general. Though I don't have a figure to cite, I'm pretty sure more people have been slaughtered in the name of this or that God/G-d/Etc. than any other reason. This is because the only way to get someone to believe an opinion based not on facts but (what) superstition, i.e., "just because" logic, is by FORCE. (And Christians, if we're honest about it, the bible is one fabulous list of murder and mayhem which oddly the Grand Marquis was quite against.)While yes, the church can instill in people many wonderful attributes, it can also make them fabulously ignorant, hypocritical, judgemental, violent, misogynistic, racist, and the rudest people on earth. As someone who came up around such people (christians), I know what I'm talking about.

As far as children go, I really think a young mind should be left alone to be inquisitive and searching about the world. Children are naturally this way, naturally curious, open, and empathetic, yet religion (if it is successful) burns it out of them. It takes many years to "recover" from religious indoctrination, at the subconscious level. Children should be encouraged to use reason and logic (to ask "Why is that?" when presented with "Just Because" logic) for phenomena rather than myths and propaganda passed down through the ages. The most worrying thing to me is that, as history shows, the sword and the word are not mutually exclusive and while today little Johnny might be reading about noah in Genesis (while you can be sure as shit he won't be informed that this story is thought to originate in the Epic of Gilgamesh in a region his president speaks of "liberating"), tomorrow he'll be signing up to "defend his country against radical islamic jihadist (thank you Mr.Said!).

My two cents.

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» good points Posted by: aislinnluv
Pity those poor kids!
Posted by: JDHorn on Sep 28, 2006 3:46 PM   
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Well for all that brainwashing there is only one cure: cognitive dissonance

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Religion is normally a man made item.
Posted by: JL on Sep 28, 2006 4:01 PM   
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If you don't go to my church, if you don't get dunked, poured, or sprinkled, if you don't give your money you will burn in hell, yea right. If a person would sit down and read their Bible, then you would KNOW what God wants. Every man and woman born has been talked to by this God and if you ignore him enough he will stop trying. If you turn your back on him he will let you. If you don't wish to live with him he won't make you. We will forget about you after judgment day and our minds renewed. The idea of religion is a way to say I believe the Bible this way. Most of the time it's a man made thing, like baptizing a baby. That will not get him into heaven, but it is nice. Who knows maybe the parents will be better parents from this exercise. So there is no real down side to it. Except that it creates division between the people and different faiths come out of it. What I have is a liberating God, his laws if followed are most liberating where mans laws are oppressive and confusing. This is why you should read his book and try to (fairly) understand what is written, without all of his and or her prejudices. That is why one should leave making laws to God and not to man. To say that there is no God is foolish he has talked to everyone. It is your choice to turn your back on him. Still all his laws apply and that makes you feel bad and you don't like feeling bad. There is a place that goes beyond that uncomfortable feeling and you can rest knowing that all is forgiven and it will not be thrown in your face everyday at least not by him. If I am a soldier for Jesus I would call that a loose term. I would say that I am a follower of Jesus and his teachings. I would also say that I am a human being and that means that I will screw up, period. I will also be forgiven when I ask in my prayers. If God says I live another day I will or my sins are more than he wishes to handle. Then I will be sent home (to heaven) and the Lord (maybe) would cuff me on the back of the head (like probee gets from his boss on NCIS) and say what was that you know better than that. Then he will say son welcome home. Let me show you your new house and life here in heaven. So no I won't get away with murder. I probably won't get away with anything. It is nice to know that I will be forgiven. How can it be dangerous to be a follower of the Lord to follow the 10 commandments to live a good clean life to be a joy to all that knows you and a helper to those that have less than you? To say that there is no God is to say that there are no laws, because man does not have the right to create laws. Which means then we should be able to do anything we want and I mean anything! To rape, pillage, and burn should be the norm and to kill a person acceptable. One would say that's why we need laws, laws to stop such things. But the man that creates such laws when he dies his laws will die with him. The new person that comes up next might say well that guy was nuts, I have a new law and it goes something like this. Maybe he feels that killing others is ok or ripping off your neighbor is ok or something else until he dies. Then it gets a little worse, a natural progression until all is accepted. Why not there is no God, there is no one to answer to of a higher order that can take an evil one and throw his fanny into the furnace and heat it up for the next trillion years. His thought would be (you kill me you put me out of my misery and you plant me into the ground, so what, your doing me a favor.) Do we think so little of ourselves that we should allow ourselves to become as base animals or less. All in the name that we don't wish to feel some discomfort, we can't stand someone giving us some instruction, as to making us, all that we can be, FOR REAL? Who better than a true, non intrusive, Loving, GOD that wants the best for you and all mankind to teach us and give us the all needed boundaries we so desire to attain. Can you afford to be wrong?

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» OK you won..... Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: OK you won..... Posted by: Philip Newton
Evanglical Parasites: You Are the "Antichrist"
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 28, 2006 4:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This another example of people in the "God business." I also saw an article today that some of the megachurches now have installed ATM machines for "cash contributions" of parishoners. Now, when I saw that, I thought "wasn't it Jesus who threw the money changers out of the temple?" Well, you can bet the money changers are back and they are now the temple! Religion and Jesus turned into a carnival and a money making enterprise for those running it. And, what makes it worse is the brainwashing and the indoctrination of children. A generation being raised to support the church, the "evangelical right." Well, its about time we stood up. These parasites are destroying American politics with right wing nonsense. They have taken the Christian notions of charity and being the good samaritan and replaced them with give all your money to me (the Church) and the poor and impoverished be damned. These same parasites travel to other countries, like China and Russia, in an attempt to brainwash the locals and generate even more cash and supporters for themselves. When will America wake up! We have seen the "Antichrist" and that is who you are!

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the world doesn't need more warriors
Posted by: Gregor on Sep 28, 2006 5:29 PM   
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We need more peace makers not people running around ready to whack the snot out of you if you don't believe what they want.

I just don't understand why people want to remake everyone in their own crazy image. There is diversity in the world, created by a loving God who wants all of us to open our hea haterts and minds to everything, not shove each other into a box or hating each other for our differences.

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Destroy the Church
Posted by: TWilliams on Sep 28, 2006 5:31 PM   
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I think we should just ban religion all together in this country and throw all of the Christans in prisons. The government can do a better job at managing the youth of America - just look at how well they have done in the inner-cities..oh wait...graduation rates are as low as 20% in some major cities, and the crime. I suppose allowing children to join gangs is more supportive than a bible camp. Heaven forbid someone learns to pray!

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» RE: Destroy the Church Posted by: may261989
» RE: Destroy the Church Posted by: symcokid
» The T stands for Troll, right? Posted by: axolotl_helix
Charity or Charade?
Posted by: eddie torres on Sep 28, 2006 10:08 PM   
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The thing about churches, and other 'religious organizations' like this summer camp, is that they enjoy tax-exempt status. Unlike all other tax-exempt organizations, however, churches and many religious organizations are not required to file an annual information return with the IRS. (A Form 990 for most 'charities')

Annual information returns allow the public, not just the IRS, to look at the organization's financial information (donations, revenue, expenses, etc.) and the names of the individuals most closely associated with the organization. This includes how much donors donated, and how much key employees were paid. It also includes information on the political activities that a nonprofit is permitted to engage in.

If this organization and others like it are afraid of releasing this information, US citizens should be asking their political representatives and IRS officials "why". Contact Charles Grassley (R) in the US Senate and let him know what you think - he's chairing a reform committee on this issue.

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» RE: Charity or Charade? Posted by: symcokid
Big Al
Posted by: eddie torres on Sep 28, 2006 10:12 PM   
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Remember, Al Capone was brought down for income tax evasion. Not murder, extortion, 'bootlegging', gambling, bribery, or 'racketeering'.

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religion is not needed for morals
Posted by: jpinder on Sep 29, 2006 6:56 AM   
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I've never heard of a secular war, 95% of prison inmates are religious, most divorces are by religious folks.

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Y'all have hate down pat
Posted by: kenhymes on Sep 29, 2006 10:03 AM   
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I'm amazed at the gibbering, frothing hate spewing from the keyboards of commenters on this film, who then claim that religion is a mental illness.

But you know - despite the double pain of this film being presented as a picture of my faith in America, when I know it's a very untypical sub-group; combined with the attacks on the Bible and on believers as deranged, violent, sub-normal people, when I know that the vast majority of Christians are pretty much the same as everybody else - what really bugs me is how easily the left is suckered.

There's just no sense of tactics and proportion out there, it's all free-floating opinion with no coherent plan for getting from here to there. When the GOP says that the left "hates America," it's kind of only partly true: seems like the left, like the right, hates everyone who either disagrees with them, or doesn't care too much about their opinions.

Here's some news for you: neither the Christian right, nor the atheist left, is ever going to run the country, and if either did, it would be a short-lived disaster. I'm not a fence-sitting liberal, I'm a radical believer in justice and the grace of God. But the country is what it is... both secular and nominally religious; obsessed with money and posessions, and yet wishing for a purer, cleaner life; afraid of real painful personal sacrifice, but thrilled to see it acted out by fictional and virtual characters; standing on our individual rights when they are specifically challenged against us, but not too comfy with them being actually available to everyone (yes, including that guy you think is a dangerous lunatic).

The U.S. is much too complicated and big and fat and lazy to ever be run by a bunch of puritanical blowhards, whether from the left or the right.

So why don't you all get some kind of plan for building bridges, instead of sitting at your desks throwing rotten tomatoes? The church I work at is at least trying to work together with other churches and community organizations on issues of housing and jobs and transportation for struggling working people. Where is the political left on these issues? Non-existent, AWOL, as far as I can see.

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» RE: Y'all have hate down pat Posted by: mizkaye
» RE: Y'all have hate down pat Posted by: tgabriel
Ed Boyle
Posted by: ejboyle@olypen.com on Sep 29, 2006 1:10 PM   
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GOD WANTS SPIRITUAL FRUIT NOT RELIGIOUS NUTS

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This Article Proves It
Posted by: tgabriel on Sep 29, 2006 5:24 PM   
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What, you ask?

Glad you asked.

These Jesus Freaks are insane. Flat-out crazier than all the insanity accumulated since pre-humans dropped out of the trees and walked upright.

Additionally, don't think because some of us are not believers that we are ignorant of either religion or what these monsters are up to. Some of us have witnessed their madness first hand and have been able to escape it to live wonderful, fulfilled lives. Don't think we take these animals lightly, either. Some of us are not intimidated by the possibility of their rage. Some of us know what to do with evil.

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what does it matter?
Posted by: robmikejas on Sep 29, 2006 6:19 PM   
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This is a re-post of the last chapter in the book of America.

No church or church hater will avoid this fate:

Ruled by an ignorant Dictator and his crony administrators, the weak minded and immoral legislators continued to cripple the personal rights of the masses of citizens and to fund and support the illegal war started by the Dictator as a feeding of his need to be a "Macho" commander in chief. Using his power as the "Decider", Mr.Dictator decided to trample the nation's constitution and thumb his cowboy nose at the Geneva Conventions. This was a decision he made every morning after ignoring warnings of increased terrorist activity in foreign lands and his losing policy in the conduct of his own personal war. The country began it's slow but inevitable sinking into the quicksand of history, into a pit filled with the dead corpses of so many nations who once proclaimed themselves as the world's super power. And the humans who had sacrificed and given all , for the developement of this civilization, now a Dictatorship, were sorely shamed and greviously disrespected. And who will be left to remember??

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I wonder......
Posted by: PJH67 on Sep 30, 2006 3:15 AM   
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I wonder if all the folks trashing Christianity on this site would have the guts to trash another religion that has too much political power, subjugates women, preaches intolerance to homosexuals and tries to censor everything that it finds offensive. It's followers are often violent whenever anyone dares to speak out about it's faults. Any takers?

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» RE: I wonder...... Posted by: SekhmetsatRa
God and might
Posted by: Mamarianne on Sep 30, 2006 10:07 AM   
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Has anyone out there experienced a school assembly program by the Commandos, a pair of speakers out of Houston, Texas. The program invoked the Bible at several points, and my research shows that one of the presenters calls himself a minister. The presenters rip phone books, crush full soda cans, and bend steel bars-- all while shouting (and I mean shouting!!!) messages of patriotism and clean living. Now I have nothing against clean living, but these folks condemn something they call rebellion as being equally bad as drugs and alcohol. Ironically, they end the program with a comment about our founding fathers. Were those folks not rebelling? The heavily muscled presenters wear sleeveless combat style black vests and combat style boots. Look these folks up under Commandos USA. What is message do you think they are presenting about the might makes right of current US policies? Is this type of assembly suitable for a school setting where students (and staff) were given no preview of the content and no permission to opt out?

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» RE: God and might Posted by: Plexius
Maybe needed
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Oct 1, 2006 7:20 PM   
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as fodder for the various wars the banking elite are planning. If you don't believe in that statement then maybe you'll believe we might need these future 'soldiers' to fight against the muslims nut cases who also are focused on their version of Armeggedon (the 12th Imam, 'Hidden' Imam, or whatever other crazy terms they use for them.) Unfortunately both side have nukes now.

Ashcroft handled snakes and spoke in tongues, Carter 'sinned' in his heart for looking at a woman, Bush could "see into Putin's soul", MLK Jr had dream 'visions' and had 'messages' from God, and I won't mention the craziness of the Muslim hardliners. They are all nutso. And that's the problem in the world.

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