COMMENTS: 165
The Real Tragedy of Student Debt
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I hope that my experience will shed light on similar stories unfolding across America, illuminating the impossible choices that meet working-class students. It's also a cautionary tale for countries seduced by the false promises of private college education financed by student loans and credit cards.
At my working-class high school in Connecticut, I was always a top student. The overwhelming message for high achievers was that brains, determination, and charisma would lead to success in any career, and I dutifully pursued volunteer work, leadership training, part-time jobs, and anything else that would 'look good on the resume.'
My hard work paid off when I was accepted for a prestigious early-entrance program at the University of Southern California. The Resident Honors Program (RHP) selects 'exceptional and highly motivated' students to begin college a year before graduating high school, recruiting from the top 4 percent of sophomores nationally. From a pool of 25,000, between 30 and 60 join the program each year.
I got a $6,000 scholarship, along with $19,500 in grants and work study. In order to make the required fees and expenses of $28,000, I took out a $2,500 student loan my first year -- a manageable amount, I thought.
Once I got to USC, I worked for a month at a grocery store, then got a work-study job for 20 hours a week, $6 an hour. An irregular schedule caused me to miss RHP activities, and I had to skip some classes. But keeping my debts under control seemed worth it. My first summer home, I worked on a farm and earned $1,000 -- enough to buy my plane tickets.
My second year, USC's tuition fees increased by $2,000, and my mother's income increased by $1,000. Ironically, this pushed our family out of the 'low-income' category, and I lost half of my grant money. I considered transferring to a less expensive school, but USC's general education classes were so obscure that I'd have to repeat my freshman year anywhere else. So I held my nose and took out a $9,500 loan, hoping to apply for scholarships later on.
I got another work-study job -- on top of running two student organizations, taking honors-level classes, and dealing with a roommate from hell. Getting to the library was becoming impossible, so I took out a $1,500 loan to buy a laptop. It was my first experience of a private student loan, and I was told it wasn't much different from a federal loan. The interest was slightly higher, and there were slightly different rules, but overall it all seemed the same.
After Christmas, the overload became too much, and I had to prioritize. I decided that leadership and education were more important than meaningless employment, so I quit my job and took out another $2,000 private loan. I navely hoped that my education would someday allow me to earn more than $6 an hour.
My third year, I attended Edinburgh University in Scotland, where tuition fees were half of USC's. That year, I needed only a $4,000 loan, and didn't have to worry about a job. But the next year brought hardly any grant money, and rather than give up in the 'home stretch,' I took out more loans than I ever expected I'd need.
When I graduated in the summer of 2002, I was $36,000 in debt. My only consolation was that my debts were equivalent to one year's cost of attendance -- a bargain, really.
A shift from grants to loans hurts working class students
I moved back to my mother's house and began looking for a job. But in the recession following 9-11, employers wanted practical, predictable degrees, not esoteric subjects like anthropology. From seeking meaningful employment, I slid into looking for any job. I had a few days of temporary office work, a few months in retail. I went to Scotland in search of a better job market, but couldn't even get an interview before my money evaporated.
Since my degree wasn't helping me find work, I decided I needed a skill. I started a multimedia course at a community college, paid for with wages from a salon. But I soon discovered that my little laptop couldn't handle graphics work, so I bought a new computer with a private loan for $2,000.
Six months later, I finally got what I really wanted -- a meaningful job. I put multimedia on hold and began working as a union organizer. In exchange for 'unlimited hours' -- sometimes 70 hours a week -- the salary was excellent: $2,000 a month. I paid off my credit cards and started on the loans. By this point, with capitalized interest, my total debt was $43,000.
Six months later, I was burnt out. I could deal with the impossible hours, but it was an upward battle just to maintain the status quo for the workers I was helping. An overwhelming sense of futility made me wonder if anything was ever going to change, and I retreated to school to reconsider my goals and tactics. My loans were in deferment, giving me a little breathing room.
Eventually I came to the conclusion that multimedia could earn me a living, but I still wanted a career that would help disadvantaged communities. I applied to an 'alternative' master's program in Edinburgh that was ideal -- studying social change. I couldn't get any scholarships for an obscure foreign school, but I could finish in half the time of an American master's degree. I took out a private student loan for $18,000 and worked as a 'Santa's Elf' at a shopping mall (among other jobs).
As of finishing my master's degree, my debt hovers around $70,000 -- it will grow to over $100,000 by the time I pay it off. My repayment schedule reaches into my late forties, at $650 a month. If I do the kind of low-paid, meaningful work I want to pursue -- teaching, writing, grassroots organizing -- I will likely struggle to make each payment.
To be fair, I made the choices that put me in this situation. I attended an expensive university 3,000 miles from home. I stayed at that school, even though I could get a cheaper education elsewhere. I studied an impractical subject that I loved, then continued my studies at an obscure foreign university. I wasn't always aware of financial consequences.
Yet I made my choices based on the values I had been taught -- that helping others is more important than making money for yourself, meaningful career is more important than net worth, and brains, determination, and charisma are the key ingredients of success. I realize now that I subscribed to the fantasy of an equal society, when in fact everyone's options arise from class, race, gender, and a thousand other subtle differences in our experiences, assumptions, and privileges.
There are alternative models
My experience with higher education exemplifies the conundrum of the working class. Universities guarantee financial aid to low-income students, but often shift from grants to loans after a year or two. Students are expected to make higher contributions each year, even though upper-level classes are more demanding than introductory ones. Students are encouraged to take leadership roles in extracurricular activities, but working-class students have to fill their summers with meaningless low-paid jobs instead of volunteer work or internships, and are put behind their upper class peers.
Adding insult to injury, education gives a tantalizing glimpse of the wider world. For many, college is where they realize that their experience of injustice is not isolated, and many gain a desire to work for social justice. But to pay back their debt, graduates must forget their ideals and go to work for the highest bidder.
To put it in perspective, the average debt at graduation in America is $19,300. In the United Kingdom, it's $16,000; in New Zealand, $9,600; in Germany, $7,000. Most countries require repayment only when a graduate earns a certain salary -- in the United Kingdom, it's $28,000. In Germany, it's $14,500 -- but students enjoy a five-year grace period, subsidies for good grades, and forgiveness on all loans above $12,500. Sweden's grace period is three years, Holland's is two, and most countries in Europe forgive student loans after 15-25 years.
These different arrangements allow students to 'get on their feet' after graduating. New graduates have the time and space to find a niche, rather than getting trapped in the first job that comes along. They are allowed to engage in useful work without worrying about excessive loan payments, making contributions that aren't measured by the GDP.
Grants rather than loans also limit the flow of educated, desperate young people into the semiskilled labor market, leaving service jobs open to those who have not pursued higher education. While this contributes to social stratification, it also makes jobs available to people who need them.
In America, with its tangled webs of overpriced private colleges, usurious credit cards and bankruptcy-proof student loans, it's unlikely that socialized education would be embraced. Still, it's heartening to know that our system is an excessive anomaly -- most other countries make much better investments in their young people regardless of their class and race.
In many ways, this pattern is one manifestation of a larger trend in America: sacrificing the opportunities and livelihoods of lower- and middle-class people for the profit of banks, corporations and the wealthy elites. But there's only so much sacrifice people can handle before they're bled dry, and only so long a country can prosper on credit cards and loans that can't be reasonably repaid.
What is writ large in corporate bankruptcies, withering federal programs and industrial outsourcing is writ small in stories of impossible choices and shattered educational dreams. The real tragedy is not that America's young people can't afford their college education -- the tragedy is that they are told their entire lives that education is their birthright and a chance to social mobility, and then are forced to watch that birthright crumble under the weight of unbearable debt.
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Posted by: rteolis on Jul 23, 2006 10:10 PM
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» RE: B
Posted by: vicki2001lynn
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Posted by: billb on Jul 24, 2006 1:35 AM
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Is it any wonder our young people are disaffected? Is it any wonder unions are unable to successfully organize? Is there any solution to this short of chaos?
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» RE: Solidarity, not education needed
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: Solidarity, not education needed
Posted by: symcokid
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Posted by: terihu on Jul 24, 2006 3:29 PM
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I don't know what her home state is, but in California, where she attended USC, she could've gotten an equal (maybe even superior) education at a public school with a price tag that's a quarter of what she paid. While this is not true of all states, there are quite a few with strong public university systems that rival any private school.
Also, let's not ignore the fact that education abroad is an indulgence that most college students can't even consider, so her spending levels were not "normal."
Finally, there are plenty of jobs that are both meaningful and pay a decent salary. They may not be "competitive" compared to corporate salaries, but you can survive and pay off your loans.
In other words, while I don't dispute any of Goldberg's concerns, I have to point out that her situation is not typical, and it is misleading to present it as such.
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» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: daa4
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» Hey! Are you talking about me?
Posted by: sln70
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: joonmoon
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: terihu
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: terihu
» I disagree.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: I disagree.
Posted by: terihu
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: Radicalizer
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: terihu
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: notinKansas
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: terihu
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: notinKansas
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: terihu
» You don't know what you are talking about
Posted by: terradea
» RE: You don't know what you are talking about
Posted by: lively56
» RE: You don't know what you are talking about
Posted by: meadowlake59
» Yes, I do.
Posted by: terihu
» RE: Yes, I do.
Posted by: lamar
» RE: Yes, I do.
Posted by: terihu
» RE: Yes, I do.
Posted by: JeremyF
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Posted by: myshele on Jul 24, 2006 5:18 PM
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I'm originally from a working-class town in Connecticut (despite stereotypes that everyone in Connecticut is rich!), so would have had to pay out of state tuition at UCLA, which I considered transferring to. I also would have had to repeat my freshman year -- USC and many other schools have a nice little scam where they give their general ed classes obscure titles so they don't transfer anywhere else.
As for meaningful jobs, there weren't many in Connecticut (where my rent was free) when I was looking. Maybe they were plentiful in other places, but competition is fierce for social change jobs, especially when you're up against trustafarians who can afford to move around or take low-paid gigs for awhile.
At any rate, my point in the article is that you don't get hit with debt all at once. Everyone has a slightly different way of getting buried, but with so many people trying to dig out, isn't it worthwhile to examine some of the ways it happens?
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» RE: clarification
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» RE: clarification
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» RE: clarification
Posted by: terihu
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Posted by: aladdinsane on Jul 24, 2006 6:17 PM
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I do not understand the argument that we need to start providing free money, forgiving loans, etc. all these students. If you've decided that you want to major in something, knowingly, that will never earn you more than say $40,000... good for you, I'm glad you're doing what you like, but you have no right, and expectation that someone else can, or SHOULD be footing the bill for your self-indulgent education (and isn't all worthwhile education just that). At the end result this money has to come from SOMEWHERE. Some human person has to contribute that money for YOUR (and MY) education.
The fact that it is difficult for you, or anyone to pay off your loans doesn't make it RIGHT that someone ELSE should foot the bill. Education is a personal responsibility and is not a right, if it is worth it, it's worth working hard for, and taking on any required burden, not expecting someone else (Uncle Sam) to do it for you.
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» RE: Culture of Entitlement.
Posted by: ortichi
» RE: Culture of Entitlement.
Posted by: LouisFallert
» RE: Culture of Entitlement.
Posted by: DRosen
» Oh sure, let's all be engineers and software developers...
Posted by: sln70
» RE: Culture of Entitlement.
Posted by: Samantha Vimes
» RE: Culture of Entitlement.
Posted by: PickleBarrel
» RE: Culture of Entitlement.
Posted by: tlan
» RE: Culture of Entitlement.
Posted by: CollD
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Posted by: Econotarian on Jul 24, 2006 9:06 PM
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If the government wants to hire those kinds of jobs, that is another story. But giving false hopes to students that they can make it, only for them to find out they can't, is stupid.
I made my choices based on the values I had been taught -- that helping others is more important than making money for yourself, meaningful career is more important than net worth, and brains, determination, and charisma are the key ingredients of success.
Unfortunately, these socialist concepts don't work, despite the desire of intelligent and otherwise well-educated people to hold onto them. Your value to humanity is what you get paid for, which is directly relevant to your learning of skills that are valued in the marketplace. And net worth is important.
There is nothing wrong with helping others for free, but you have to help yourself first by helping others in exchange for money. Once you are rich, then look into redistributing your wealth.
Another thing to think about is that every free market transaction is an increase in wealth for both parties, or else they would not partake in the transaction. Lawyers are helping people, doctors are helping people, computer programmers are helping people, stock brokers are helping people, corporate CEOs are helping people, and they are all earning good money while doing so.
My suggestion to young people is to make as much money as you can from age 20 to 30, then if you can put a million or two aside, then you have all kinds of options for the future. You could take several years off and volunteer, or do part-time consulting and spend the rest of your life doing art or whatever.
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» RE: a socialist mindset is its own reward
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: a socialist mindset is its own reward
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: a socialist mindset is its own reward
Posted by: noname101
» RE: a socialist mindset is its own reward
Posted by: dllevine
» RE: a socialist mindset is its own reward
Posted by: jackie
» RE: a socialist mindset is its own reward
Posted by: dllevine
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Posted by: Bobsays on Jul 25, 2006 4:46 AM
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When I graduated I still had some debt (but I was able to keep this seriously down by working). I graduated into the big recession crash of 1989/90. Jobs for university graduates were rare and most organisations canned their graduate schemes.
I looked around and noticed many friends were broke and did things like move back home. I instead got a job as a manager in a hospital (and all my friends looked down on me because it wasn't something at the New York Times). But I didn't care. I really enjoyed the work (helping cancer patients) and met some of the most interesting and intelligent people I have ever worked with (the doctors, nurses, allied medical personnel). I also was now earning enough - and I saved every penny - to pay off my debts in just over a year. I learned a lot in that job - medicine, management, people skills, handling crisis - etc.
I then moved on to my dream job after that. But it was a great start to my working career, and it felt really good to start off a working career in my field with no debts and cash in the bank. From an outside perspective, doing that job was the wrong thing to do (I studied history) but actually it put me on a solid footing and enabled me to also support my wife as she started on her career.
I now make a lot of money as a consultant and have the freedom to choose who and where I work. I have also been able to cash in on that hospital experience for my later contracts.
I run my finances and consulting in a business-like fashion. I see my duty is to make sure I am paid properly for my work (no freebies). When I have cash (and can help with the household expenses) I am buying myself freedom. I agree that students should go for as much cash as you can get the market to give you. And save.
A friend of mom did the whole seriel degree thing. She kept thinking each rung on the academic ladder would pay off. BUt it didn't and she just ended up really badly in debt. She is now retired and faces the horrible prospect of paying off debt from her pension. This means no freedom to even travel or do the other things people hope to do when they retire. It is a sad state of affairs.
My warning is to all students: don't rack up seriel degrees and debt. Get earning high as soon as possible and make sure you pay off the first degree's debt first.
Run your life like a business: stick to your values and ideals, but remember as an individual you are a business, not a socialist entity. The state may or may not turn itself into a socialist entity, but you need to look after your finances first.
Don't volunteer for no money. Look around, there is always a way to get paid for doing what you want to do. Make sure your employer provides skills training and you kill two birds with one stone. Drop any baggage you may have learned from your parents (soppy notions of saving the world etc.). You can do more for the world if you have money, and if you feel confident and successful. It is up to those who have a mission to save to make the effort to secure funding for their initiatives. As we know, fundraising in the helping sectors is big business and with a good strategy, an agency can always find the money.
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» Forgive me, but you sound really smug. Letting money run your life makes you successful. BUT...
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Forgive me, but you sound really smug. Letting money run your life makes you successful. BUT...
Posted by: aladdinsane
» Touched a nerve there, did I.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Touched a nerve there, did I.
Posted by: aladdinsane
» You did read "America's 100 Years," the Sherill article today, right?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: You did read "America's 100 Years," the Sherill article today, right?
Posted by: aladdinsane
» The price of a wholesome world: "Anything a human has done, I am capable of doing."--Sigmund Freud.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Herbert Marcuse, Ayn Rand, Plato, and Aristotle--The debate continues.
Posted by: meadowlake59
» Almost missed your comment. Glad I didn't.
Posted by: Sojourner
» Live like Ayn Rand, vote like Marx
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: You did read "America's 100 Years," the Sherill article today, right?
Posted by: symcokid
» Bobsays - look, I'm going to tell you this ONE MORE TIME... taking a MANAGERIAL JOB
Posted by: sln70
» RE: Here is the truth your university won't tell you
Posted by: lamar
» It's 100 per cent true
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Here is the truth your university won't tell you
Posted by: gideonh
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Posted by: TechnophobeII on Jul 25, 2006 2:04 PM
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Right now, that same University's tuition is $2,000 per quarter and they want to raise it!! That's a compound growth rate, over 40 years, of just under 9%. Almost THREE times the rate of inflation during that same time, including the horrific inflations of the middle '70's.
No, the real culprit in student debt is the inability of Universities everwhere to control their cost structures. They demand more money from their legislatures (or, in the case of private universities, raise their endowments, tuitions, etc.) but heaven forbid that they control their costs. A college prof's pay, perks and other bennies are sacrosanct, not to be questioned by the great unwashed or the University Administration. If you doubt this, just watch your political process on support of higher education in your state or country. Thus, universities have coped with this 9% compound "adversity" by getting many of their students to impoverish themselves for life. Especially if they want a liberal arts education.
There is a solution---it is called Lean Thinking and comes from Henry Ford and the Toyota Production System. For those of you interested, Google "Lean Thinking" and you'll find a wealth of information. The thought process applies to every organization and every human work endeavor (broad statement, I know, but I haven't found an exception---there may be some). Many, many hospitals are responding to the challenge of rising healthcare costs by employing this strategy, a way of thinking about TIME. And giving the customer more of what they need---solid medical attention and time while involving the entire workforce in Lean Thinking.
Even some state governments are taking up the challenge, albeit much more slowly than the private sector, healthcare, and NGO's. Universities will be dead last. But, imagine that Universities were able to STOP, dead in its tracks, the cost monster and not raise any costs for the next 10 years or more. It could be done. Costs could even go DOWN, radical as that may seem. It took 40 years to get here, it could take 10 years or more to get earning power and the cost of higher education back in line.
One more example of how the disparity in the rise of education costs relates to earning power. In 1958, I worked on a summer job making $2.05 per hour---which was big pay. They were very busy so I worked lots of overtime. In that year, tuition was $90/quarter and room and board was $225.00. Thus, I could earn my quarter's tuition and living costs in just 154 hours of work, ignoring taxes and such. That is about 4 weeks of work, not including overtime. So, in the 16 week span between spring and fall quarters, I was able to earn and save enough for the whole year's education plus expenses. Today, getting a $12.00 per hour job for summer is hard but can be done. However, it now requires 317 hours of work to cover one quarter's tuition ($2000) and dorm ($1800). Many people make significantly less than $12.00/hr for a summer job.
Thus, you see the long term effect of uncontrollable cost rises by the Universities. That, ladies and gentlemen, is the real culprit for your debt dilemma.
Technophobe II
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» Academics have a lot to answer for
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Academics have a lot to answer for
Posted by: alm
» RE: Academics have a lot to answer for
Posted by: techphile
» RE: Academics have a lot to answer for
Posted by: jackie
» RE: I agree
Posted by: Urstrly
» RE: The real culprit - more in the mix
Posted by: dancerkc
» RE: Universities Have No Accountability & Are Bureaucratic
Posted by: NoPCZone
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Posted by: Joe Ox on Jul 25, 2006 3:29 PM
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First, just reading this tale, with its implied sadness and begging for sympathy was laughable. USC? Scotland? I couldn't care less if USC has the best program in the universe, and if Scotland saved her 75%, it is a dream experience as far as location and environment for this woman. Maybe the 2nd best, or even the 8th best program could have worked? And poor you, you had to pay $2000 for a PC. I was actually thinking this had to be parady.
Almost everyone has some loans to deal with. The problem lies with first the sense that no matter how expensive to earn, and how unlikely it is to pay off, you have the right to become whatever you want and everyone else should lay aside and let you be all you can be baby, coupled with the self rightiousness of it being an ambition to help others, and this somehow makes it even extra special and therefore horrible these loans are hounding you....absurd.
If there was a shortage of, a degree of difficulty is achieving, and a vibrant demand for whatever it is you are doing, then in most cases it will pay off. Indeed had you not chosen the exotic route you chose, this would have paid off too...state college near home, grants, jobs, it all works out. Your ability to not only get the degree in the way you wish, but that you should be debt free, is not my problem. I can just hear the nasal intonation as it is described, "I did my prereqs at USC, then turned a couple of semesters at Edinburg in their blah blah blah program you know"....Talk about elitist and the author is young.
It scares me a little that there is little disagreement here. This is how we got the National Endowment for the Arts...it was decided that we simply could not advance our civilization without every kook sticking a dead frog in a jar of food coloring getting to express himself that, if the people had no interest, the government would not let these essential things go unexpressed and they would pay for it.
I can see it now, The National Endowment for Spoiled Kids Who Want an Exotic International Education So They Can Save The World"
You form the acronym.
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» RE: Are You Kidding
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Are You Kidding
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» RE: Are You Kidding
Posted by: dllevine
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Posted by: adp3d on Jul 27, 2006 4:06 AM
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» RE: I think her tale is rather typical...
Posted by: alm
» RE: I think her tale is rather typical...
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
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Posted by: MiniBugg on Jul 27, 2006 5:00 AM
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-Universities are putting up their fees, AGAIN. This is partially to cover the increased cost in living; but is well and truely above the rate of inflation. For some educators this is the third fee rise in as many years.
-Student debt is rife. The goverment has recently introduced interest free student loans & bank overdrafts as part of combative measures. Personally, I think it's going to encourage people to borrow to live. Especially the people that are just outside the financial assistance brackets. And you can get these loans from the age of 16.
-Financial Assistance. You aren't eligible for any until the age of 18, even if you are at tertiary. The eligibility brackets are fairly constrictive and reliant on your parents net earnings. But there are all sorts of 'exceptions' available if you are Maori. This confuses and annoys a lot of people.
-Non transferable degrees. Well, frankly, our whole qualifications system is non transferable and an absolute waste of time. Who implimented NCEA? Our whole university system is slowly being transfered into the NZQA framework, which is effectively rendering our education useless overseas. It's highly subjective and the entire curriculum varies immensly from school to school. If I can't understand the marks I've gotten, how are people who don't know the qualifications system supposed to work it out?
-Part time jobs. These can be extremely hard to find and keep, especially in the smaller centers ie Napier, Palmeston North. There is a lot of seasonal work available, especially if you come from a rural background. But if you are an utter townie you'll be lucky to find a summer job. Unless you head to the fast food joints.
I sat down and worked it out the other day. By the time I finish my tertiary education, even with my savings, I can expect to be AT LEAST $25k in debt. At the age of 22. And when I decide to go overseas I will probably have to redo at least two years of my training to ensure that I am of the standard they require.
Least in America you have an internationally recognised qualifications system.
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Posted by: rsaxto on Jul 27, 2006 5:33 AM
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Posted by: nosylae on Jul 27, 2006 6:09 AM
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I bet not. More and more people in this country think that the more education you get, the better off you will be. But, in all reality, all the higher education people stll need blue collar workers. No matter where you live, but especially where there are a lot of white collar jobs in cities and towns across America, the price of blue collar work is going up for a simple reason: SUPPLY AND DEMAND!
So I say to all you higher educated types: keep going to school because the price to fix a busted sewer pipe is going to keep going up. Sooner than you think.
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» RE: Hello Blue collar work!
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Hello Blue collar work!
Posted by: froggeymonkey
» Advocating for the trades
Posted by: Sunfell
» My degree has served me well - I don't want to be a plumber!
Posted by: Steve_in_NH
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Posted by: dikaiosyne on Jul 27, 2006 7:39 AM
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» RE: alternatives?
Posted by: fukcit
» RE: alternatives?
Posted by: CollD
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Posted by: makeadifference on Jul 27, 2006 8:50 AM
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» RE: makeadifference
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
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Posted by: herb on Jul 27, 2006 9:41 AM
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At some point true patriots will again rise up to fight this oppression. For the time being ignorance and misguided self interest sees too many acting against their own true interests and the interest of the country. There will come a time when the boot of repression will be too onerous to endure and we will free ourselves once again. Until then too many individuals will suffer needlessly and the dignity and development of our nation will be sacrificed.
Herb Ruhs, MD
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» RE: So many ignorant, thoughtless, meanspirited comments
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: So many ignorant, thoughtless, meanspirited comments
Posted by: Uncle Sam
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Posted by: psudadgrad on Jul 27, 2006 2:37 PM
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Goodbye middle class America.
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Posted by: Nosila Sevarg on Jul 28, 2006 1:56 PM
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It is really sad we let kids major in foolish things -- like art history, anthropology, basket weaving -- at expensive schools and let banks lend them money to do so!
I went to college and majored in nursing. I didn't "love it" but I knew I could ALWAYS find a decent job.
And THAT'S why I went to college...not to study some egghead major that only the wealthy can afford.
Someone needs to tell not-so-wealthy kids today that college
is primarily for learning an employable skill and not to take classes because they're "fun" or because you'll "love it."
If you do love it, that 's great...but you do what you can to get decent work and pay your bills.
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» RE: I was ready to commiserate...until
Posted by: CollD
» RE: I was ready to commiserate...until
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: I was ready to commiserate...until
Posted by: ElectronRunes
» RE: I was ready to commiserate...until
Posted by: CollD
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Posted by: CollD on Jul 28, 2006 2:16 PM
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Posted by: twistedwinch on Jul 31, 2006 3:47 AM
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» RE: Out of state tuitions are ridiculous.
Posted by: CollD
» RE: Out of state tuitions are ridiculous.
Posted by: twistedwinch
» RE: Out of state tuitions are ridiculous.
Posted by: RobW
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Posted by: sln70 on Jul 31, 2006 4:11 AM
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1. The men are piping up with their holier than thou "I was smart to take mechanical engineering (or add male dominated profession here) because society values that line of work" and I had loans and I paid them off because I'm smart!
2. The women are countering with the argument that they are hard workers who took "soft sciences" and now can't find a job but that they still owe the same money the men owed upon graduating.
3. The men are calling the women stupid, essentially, for 'falling for' their hearts and wanting to do something that benefits society.
4. The women are pointing out that their work helping the poor or educating young people is just as important as writing java script.
5. The men are saying "that's clearly not true or you'd be making money. You made your choice, suck it up."
*sigh* Most men are SO blind AND heartless. Even when they are on the top of the heap, they insist on kicking the people who are down. Even though it was THEIR gender-specific upbringing that led them into careers in engineering they can't abide the notion that *women's* gender-specific upbringing led them into education in the soft-sciences.
It doesn't seem to occur to anyone that the REASON society pays engineers more money than teachers is because MALES dominate engineering. Historically, the minute women move en masse into a field of work, the pay for that work has gone down.
and you can't convince me that "the education is much more demanding" for hard sciences than for soft sicences. What's easier? Finding an empiraical solution to a problem using pre-designed hard-and-fast formulas or finding a solution to a problem based on scattered, wide ranging evidence and years of history with no proven 'right or wrong?'
What really really needs to happen is that we need to revalue "work." Screw paying some dude who can make pretty flashy databses more than someone who can keep a sick child comfortable. Screw paying MBAs a fortune to dream up ways to get money out of the workers more than people who can help someone recover from addiction, or get homeless kids off the streets.
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» RE: It's the gender divide, over and over again
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» How about nursing or teaching?
Posted by: medstudgeek
» Nurses are also horribly overworked
Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: How about nursing or teaching?
Posted by: mizkaye
» RE: It's the gender divide, over and over again
Posted by: FauxPorteno
» Hey brother, who controls the legislature AND the economy?
Posted by: sln70
» RE: Hey brother, who controls the legislature AND the economy?
Posted by: hymalaia
» the very fact that you call jobs "female oriented"
Posted by: sln70
» RE: the very fact that you call jobs "female oriented"
Posted by: hymalaia
» RE: Hey brother, who controls the legislature AND the economy?
Posted by: FauxPorteno
» it's "toeing" - not "towing."
Posted by: sln70
» watch your grammar, spelling and phraseology from now on moron!!
Posted by: FauxPorteno
» RE: It's the gender divide, over and over again
Posted by: terihu
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Posted by: BrigidsBlest on Jul 31, 2006 5:21 AM
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I look at how much student loan funding has been cut in recent years by the federal administration and have to wonder if certain elements in the government WANT us to remain uneducated and poor.
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» RE: Been there, done that.
Posted by: ElectronRunes
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Posted by: Farmertim on Jul 31, 2006 5:26 AM
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But upon reading the comments it seems I have heard them before.....from investors in the stock market.
It sounds as if the Higher education system of this country is no more a shell game than Wall street to fleece the general public out of its hard earned income.
Sure a few do well, but just enough for others to see it may be worth the gamble.
The end result is just the same though..wisom is seldom coupled with easy money or mulitple degree's.....and either way money is funneled upwards to a regal few.
Farmer Tim
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» I absolutely agree
Posted by: sln70
» RE: Sounds familiar....
Posted by: dllevine
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Posted by: kamcallen on Jul 31, 2006 6:36 AM
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Karon
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Posted by: DrXyzzy on Jul 31, 2006 7:36 AM
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I suspect that raising the level of education in America would also go a long way to restoring a working democracy in place of the present sociopathic plutocracy.
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» RE: we should invest in our young people
Posted by: harris
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Posted by: april on Jul 31, 2006 7:46 AM
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I chose my 5th choice college because they gave me nearly a full scholarship and I cobbled together the rest in grants and workstudy with a 2,500 loan for the last two years. I graduated $5000 in debt. I majored in psychology and anthropology and really wanted to go to grad school for anthropology. But when I spoke with many who had and heard their horror stories of high debt and no jobs, I thought I should take some time to work and make sure I knew what I wanted to do. I feared that higher education could be a way of hiding from reality while indulging in important and fascinating topics, but without a sense of how to apply that knowlege and possibly gambling a lot of money I didn't have.
I ultimately did not go to grad school and feel I learned a lot about how things work in our country and society by working a variety of jobs. Opportunities opened up for me that would have never happened had I stayed in the safety of higher education without facing the consequences of debt right away. Everytime we sign on the dotted line or use plastic we are borrowing against ourselves, our freedom and future choices. These decisions should never be taken lightly and in the case of higher education I do not feel like its something we should be owed. I realized after awhile that the school I went to did not even make that much difference in the long run. What mattered more were the steps I took in my own development and the places and peers I sought for growth after college. Though I would have loved to have attended my first choice school, I would have graduated possibly 50,000 dollars in debt. I just couldn't justify that.
I advise every young person to think of the financial side of things as much as the ideals of being where you want to be and doing what you love. Because the truth is that your debt levels will greatly affect your choices about those very things when you graduate.
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» RE: choices made under the influence
Posted by: terihu
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Posted by: rwoolley on Jul 31, 2006 8:11 AM
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There is little to no guidance in college about what you should major in to get a job. When you are a first generation attendee, you simply don't know what questions to ask, since it is such a new experience. So you end up majoring in what interests you, since the whole experience is centered around academic exploration and intellectual self-fulfillment rather than something as vulgar as money.
High school was not any better. There was one counselor for each 700 students--not that they would've given good advice even if they had time. Also, when you take all honors classes, it is simply assumed that you will get a four-year degree, and no one ever mentions that you may be able to make more money getting an RN or dental hygiene certificate or somethihng (and it would cost much less.)
By the time you realize your mistake, it is too late to change anything. So a lot of people throw good money after bad and get even more degrees, and are even less employable.
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» RE: rix
Posted by: rickcreswell@yahoo.com
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Posted by: techphile on Jul 31, 2006 8:22 AM
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I diasgree with one thing that the writer said however, the University of Edinburough is not an obscure school is is famous all over the world
Plus she has prestigious schools on her resume and that will help her land a better paying job than an anthroplogy major who went to st cloud state.
She may be forced to take work which pays her more, I am in a little bit of the same boat so are most lawyers and doctors who have huge amounts of debt.
Maybe things wil change
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» RE: tenacitus
Posted by: Aussie Kim
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Posted by: McJulie on Jul 31, 2006 9:17 AM
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So major in what you love, especially if that gets you out of school faster, with a higher GPA.
But it is probably unrealistic to expect "a job in your field" afterwards.
For most people, it seems a BA pays off when they go slave away for an enormous company like FedEx or the US government, where that BA makes you more likely to get hired, get hired at a higher salary, and improves your chances to advance in the company.
That's it.
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» RE: Major what you love vs. major what will pay...
Posted by: zinnia
» RE: Major what you love vs. major what will pay...
Posted by: constantreader
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Posted by: speed on Jul 31, 2006 9:55 AM
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Posted by: chitownfiloz on Jul 31, 2006 9:55 AM
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Despite the ignorant comments above, the problem is not that students study "frivolous" disciplines like anthropology (oh, yes, deep inquiry into groups of human beings lacks any value at all! Come on, you people -- and I stress people-- can't really believe that, can you?) nor is it the elaborate architecture on campuses driving up tuition costs since mostly those kinds of expenses are paid for through endowments that end up not having much of anything to do with tuition costs (and of course, God forbid we spend money in order to make universities, as they have historically been, aesthetically pleasing places with cutting-edge technology -- we used to do education without all of these useless amenities -- they were called monasteries). The problem is not that academics demand such high salaries (although wouldn't it be great to live in a society where those who invested the most time and effort and money into the highest levels of formal education were finanacially rewarded for doing so?); the truth is that no one becomes an academic for the money. Only the most highly sought after public intellectuals and those who write supremely successful books will get rich and I suspect that accounts for about 1 or 2% of us. The rest of us will be very happy to attain middle-class status. You know, if we can ever get our loans paid off.
So, the real problem is that this welfare program of loaning money to people who couldn't otherwise afford to go to school and invest in those who wanted to become intellectual leaders by receiving terminal degrees has become yet another business venture for the government. Instead of holding your student loan, the government now is in the practice of quickly selling it off to a company who is not interested in investing in you, but rather, quite clearly concerned with turning as much of a profit as it can. This not only affects the rate of interest charged (anyone notice the recent hikes?) but also the kinds of repayment and debt forgiveness that are available.
Yes, it's true that this is only one part of a complex set of problems in the arena of student loans and the cost of higher education. However, to my thinking, most of the problems in that web are created by the kind of thinking displayed above -- that making a good living is more important than making a good life and that economic usefullness trumps all other considerations when choosing a major (I sure hope I never have a nurse "care" for me who "didn't really like" studying nursing but did it because it was "useful"). Suggesting that the government subsidize the interests of bright young people and their ability to study those interests in depth is labeled "socialist" with the proverbial insinuation that anything with socialist sensibilities is evil and debilitating. Yet, in our late moment of capitalism, and I am not making a totalizing argument against capitalism per se, it seems that the thinking that says, "academics shouldn't make any money and the government shouldn't support 'useless' pursuits (someone actually included "English" in one of these lists!) and people should study something that is economically advantageous even if it isn't of passionate interest," is the kind of thinking that saps us of our humanity and reduces us to economic units. That seems rather evil and debilitating to me.
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Posted by: FauxPorteno on Jul 31, 2006 11:08 AM
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An article in today's Bloomberg:
"My client approached a school for a loan and was told by the school that his loan would be processed faster if he went with a lender on the preferred list,'' said John Pearson, a certified public accountant and certified college-planning specialist in Norwalk, Connecticut. ``The preferred system can often deter students from getting the best deal on a loan.''
``Colleges won't tell you that you can get a loan down the street and save money,'' adds Brian Greenberg, a CPA and certified college-planning specialist in Marlton, New Jersey. ``Anything is negotiable. You can get your money anywhere.''
How does a lender get on a school's preferred list? Is there some quid pro quo? The college-controlled lending process has been challenged recently by MyRichUncle.com, which is owned by MRU Holdings Inc., a small specialty finance company with $24 million in student loans through March 31.
Raza Khan, president of the company, alleges through national advertising that lenders offer colleges revenue-sharing deals, or a percentage of the profit of a loan; ``opportunity pools'' of loan money for high-risk borrowers; and gifts and trips to aid officials."
Read that last sentence real closely -"revenue-sharing deals, or a percentage of the profit of a loan", "gifts and trips to aid officials". Look people, in case you haven't realized it yet, the school administration is getting huge kickbacks for getting you indebted to preferred lenders. This is how it has always worked. Next time your dean takes a vacation - remember where that money came from. It truly is time to start stringing people up, watching their legs writhe in agony as they contemplate how they fucked over thousands of students before they make their journey to hell!
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Posted by: Awake on Jul 31, 2006 11:54 AM
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Departments of social sciences and the arts were thus able to funnel unsuspecting undergraduates into their programs. As graduation approached, we were calmly told that we really couldn't actually do anything with an undergraduate degree in our fields; those degrees merely prepared us for a graduate program, where we could REALLY learn the field. In other words, the elevated intellects we had constructed at the opportunity cost of learning something useful were, in fact, dumbed down, versions of the real thing, as well as useless for the purpose of employment.
As the saying went, with a BA in the social sciences and a dollar you could ride on the subway.
Why not call it what it is: fraud.
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Posted by: hymalaia on Jul 31, 2006 12:55 PM
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Um, no. What men are saying is that they made a decision to study a field that would pay so they wouldn't have financial problems down the road. Women made the opposite choice, knowing full well the major's they chose would not pay very well, and paying of college debt would be a lifetime endeavor. That's fine, but don't bitch about it when reality unfolds and you find yourself not enjoying a life of constant financial debt. Don't go around bitching about how your "underpaid" and society just doesn't value your kind of "work". What men are saying, in a nutshell is to suck it up and deal with the consequences of your actions. Do you think they major in hard sciences cause it's enjoyable? Um, no. They do it cause they are willing to work hard for a financial reward (not that the amount of work done always correlates with the reward, but that's a different topic entirely). Now that might sound shallow to someone who wants to "save the world", but they understand how miserable financial hardship can be and took precautions to avoid it. After all, you can't save anyone unless you can take care of yourself first. Because you or someone else did not take the same precautions, don't go around trying to raise the value of work that, in our economic system (which like it or not, is what we have to go on) has no value. Going down that road can only end in collapse. If you don't like it, you can go start up your commune, I won't try and stop you.
As for the main article, I echo others who have implied that universities are businesses and the professors who work there are salespeople first, educators second. If you got scammed, just take comfort in knowing you aren't alone. Believe me, I wish things didn't work out that way but that's just the reality. I learned a lot at college and had some good experiences, but there is no way in hell I can justify the price tag, especially considering it left me with very little in terms of practical employment skills, and some debt.
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» RE: wake up to the real world...
Posted by: hymalaia
» what if we ALL
Posted by: sln70
» RE: wake up to the real world...
Posted by: Kyso K
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Posted by: Jameson10314 on Jul 31, 2006 1:31 PM
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Posted by: SDres11 on Jul 31, 2006 3:36 PM
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» why did you put abortions in quotes?
Posted by: sln70
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Posted by: LadyLiberty on Jul 31, 2006 4:39 PM
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Posted by: EZJ on Jul 31, 2006 5:43 PM
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The main thing I have learned, is very profound, but I learned it late.
"You cannot consume more than you produce"
Pretty simple philosophy really. I'm no longer a fan of loans or credit.
I have set something up for those of you who are business oriented, and want to try to find ways to start your own businesses, or expand your current ones.
This site is totally new, and I built in on the cheap for free.
(because i'm so deep in debt!!!)
http://businessideasforum.runboard.com/
Hopefully some people here can share and brainstorm ideas, and benefit from this creation.
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Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam on Jul 31, 2006 8:24 PM
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Nowadays to be considered independent for education purposes you have to be either 24, a graduate student, a parent, a ward of the courts/orphan, enrolled in the armed services, or provide three letters from professionals (social workers, doctors, etc.) that prove your parents abused you. The only feasible option is to get "married." I did this to pay for school as my parents wouldn't support even support my education enough to sign the papers allowing me to take out student loans, and I have met several others who have done the same. Keep in mind these aren't real marriages, but the signing of a paper in front of a judge.
The vast majority of undergraduate students are not allowed to be independent of their parents without jumping through some ridiculous hoops. Even if a 21 year old bartender who works full time nights is supporting themselves completely (including insurance, tuition, and all other expenses) they are still considered dependents of their parents in terms of educational expenses.
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» RE: Parental support required
Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam
» RE: Parental support required
Posted by: Kyso K
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Posted by: akchang on Aug 1, 2006 10:50 AM
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The heart of the issue is our belief that education is a key to social mobility and if people "just got an education" they would be better off. This is akin to the bootstrap analogy. People need to pull themselves up and going to college is the only way to do it. Unfortunately college is a money making machine. I went to a public university, and even then, at every turn, there was some jackal trying to squeeze an extra buck out of me for things that would be considered necessities for school such as books, readers, and food on campus.
We see students get taken by the system all the time. Kids do not learn about credit card debt (I learned about it by watching people in my family trying to pay off that mounting debt). Nobody teaches you how to navigate the unveristy system to get the most out of it for as little money as possible. And nobody lays out the fact that a changing economic climate means that we are forced to make decisions we wouldn't under dfferent circumstances.
The truth is that the system is designed to work this way for a reason and we have to find our way to navigate it as best we can while living up to our integrity and conscience. Being raised middle or owning class, I have an advantage in understanding the educatoin system. That's why colleges now have programs for people who are the first in their family to to go university. Such schools understand that there is a need to get people up to speed on how the system works.
Let's not thumb our nose at the author for what she decided to study. It's irrelevent. Even if you study a "practical" vocation that pays well, you will still be forced to face mounting debts in a system designed to make money off of lending money.
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Posted by: allthingslucid on Aug 1, 2006 1:43 PM
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Posted by: MikeT on Aug 1, 2006 2:41 PM
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That way they're old and cynical by the time they pay off their debts.
If we really want to change the world, we'll require personal finance classes in high school. Maybe then our kids can learn what it's taken my generation so long to learn (if we've learned it at all):
1. Money isn't magic. Having it doesn't make you a saint. Neither does not having it.
2. Pay cash or do without.
3. Life isn't fair. Just because you think you need it or think you deserve it doesn't mean you can afford it.
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Posted by: hotlipsin61 on Aug 1, 2006 4:14 PM
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It would be nice if everyone could go to a top-notch university like USC, Pennsylvania or Columbia, but my lord the tuition is astronomically high, and grants are one solution to help ease the financial burden on families.
Debt brings misery and health problems. It can last your entire adult life.
There must be a way to make education affordable and accessible to all. Too many colleges and universities are run like a business. A college student is a mere dollar sign to textbook companies and to the institution.
But we all know nothing in life is "free." We pay a high price for knowledge. That is debt.
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Posted by: Jasonix on Aug 1, 2006 5:34 PM
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Let's look at the leading contenders:
High Tech
This field is rapidly being outsourced to India, China, and other nations. Many American software engineers have fallen out of the job market, while employers import Indian engineers on work visas, or just send the work overseas. I'm a technical writer, and I expect my career to be dead within five years. Same goes for other high-tech jobs. The only area that might have some job security is network administrator or IT support.
Medicine
Doctors are already getting out of the field due to student loan debt and insurance premiums. Hospitals are importing foreign nurses to work for lower wages - so forget about nursing. (Even my dentist office doesn't have a single American - it has two Indians, a Ukrainian, a Brazilian, and an Irish.)
Accounting
The IRS is already using Indian accountants. Forget about it.
Business administration
This field is hard to get into to, and you better be tall, good-looking, extroverted, and pathologically competitive to even think about making a go of it. If you have the slightest sense of morals or conscience, forget it. And if you aren't tall, symmetrical, and have "executive hair," forget it.
Law
There are already too many lawyers, so getting into the field is tough. You also have to be a maniac, much like the types who go into Business. Few people can pull it off.
Read it and weep. Your future is cancelled.
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Posted by: canadalauren on Aug 1, 2006 9:44 PM
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Posted by: terihu on Aug 2, 2006 5:11 AM
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USC: $47K/year x4= $188K
UCLA, CA Resident: $21-23K/year x4= $84-92K
Non-resident: $40.2K x4= $160.8K
If she had already been in CA for a year, and was over 18, she could apply for residency and get the in-state rate. That's more than double for a school that is only a few miles away, AND UCLA is ranked higher than USC.
Now, since Goldberg's from Connecticut, I thought I'd look at that state's top school: Yale. Imagine my surprise when it costs LESS than USC!
$43.7K x4= $174.8
But this is the real shocker:
UConn: $6.5 (live at home)-16K/year x4= $26-64K
Obviously, the best deal for a smart, savvy Connecticut girl. Maybe not the most exciting choice, but hey, that's life. Being debt-free has its advantages.
For the woman in Illinois who said for her two kids, the one's public school cost more than the other's private school:
UIUC: $18.6 x4= $74.4K
I compared it to the top ranked school in Illinois:
Northwestern: $47K x4= $188K
But even at a small, obscurish private, Knox, the cost is way higher:
$34K x4= $136K
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» RE: Numbers
Posted by: Kyso K
» RE: Numbers
Posted by: fleurdelamer
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Posted by: jameskronecker on Aug 2, 2006 11:06 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The humanities, social sciences, and arts are important in understanding our history, nature, and place in the world. However, the truth seems to be that the number of young people studying these subjects is much greater than the number of employment positions requiring such high levels of education. Hence, college graduates settling for retail and service jobs. But with the cost of a college education today makes this incredibly hard, unless one had the power to see through the fog and the foresight to go to a community college or state university.
Ideally college students today should be able to find out their employment prospects before enrolling in a given college degree program. Then, if it isn't satisfactory, they will study something else. Those that want to take a risk will, but then will have no right to complain.
Unfortunately though, the universities and college departments have a large incentive to lie about the employment prospects a graduate can expect, and thus regularly hide, misrepresent, or outright lie about such information ("it doesn't matter what you get your bachelor's in"). Furthermore, young students usually do not have the foresight to even ask the relevant questions, perhaps because it is discouraged or because their own parents have been given faulty information.
In any case, until the students are advised to ask the right questions and the information is made accessable, this educational system will continue to take advantage of bright-eyed, idealistic high schoolers, chaining them to student loans for many, many years, and producing jaded, disaffected individuals like the author of this article/rant.
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Posted by: CollD on Aug 4, 2006 6:37 AM
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You know, maybe 10 years ago you were able to save some cash, get a pell grant and do your little dream. Its barely feasible now. Pell grants have been cut, and don't being to even cover a 1/3 of yearly tuition, even if you are going to an in state public university. MOst people here are so far out of reality, they think college is the same as it was 10,20, 30 years ago when they were able to save up money. I could hardly affford my books working full time all summer and work study throughout the school year.
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Posted by: fleurdelamer on Aug 28, 2006 6:02 PM
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Best of luck to you. You will benefit from this experience, trust me.
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Posted by: spacemarine83 on Sep 5, 2006 6:16 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: rteolis on Jul 23, 2006 10:10 PM
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» RE: B
Posted by: vicki2001lynn
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Posted by: billb on Jul 24, 2006 1:35 AM
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Is it any wonder our young people are disaffected? Is it any wonder unions are unable to successfully organize? Is there any solution to this short of chaos?
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» RE: Solidarity, not education needed
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: Solidarity, not education needed
Posted by: symcokid
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Posted by: terihu on Jul 24, 2006 3:29 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't know what her home state is, but in California, where she attended USC, she could've gotten an equal (maybe even superior) education at a public school with a price tag that's a quarter of what she paid. While this is not true of all states, there are quite a few with strong public university systems that rival any private school.
Also, let's not ignore the fact that education abroad is an indulgence that most college students can't even consider, so her spending levels were not "normal."
Finally, there are plenty of jobs that are both meaningful and pay a decent salary. They may not be "competitive" compared to corporate salaries, but you can survive and pay off your loans.
In other words, while I don't dispute any of Goldberg's concerns, I have to point out that her situation is not typical, and it is misleading to present it as such.
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» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: daa4
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» Hey! Are you talking about me?
Posted by: sln70
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: joonmoon
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: terihu
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: terihu
» I disagree.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: I disagree.
Posted by: terihu
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: Radicalizer
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: terihu
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: notinKansas
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: terihu
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: notinKansas
» RE: *Informed* Choices are the Key to Fixing this Problem
Posted by: terihu
» You don't know what you are talking about
Posted by: terradea
» RE: You don't know what you are talking about
Posted by: lively56
» RE: You don't know what you are talking about
Posted by: meadowlake59
» Yes, I do.
Posted by: terihu
» RE: Yes, I do.
Posted by: lamar
» RE: Yes, I do.
Posted by: terihu
» RE: Yes, I do.
Posted by: JeremyF
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Posted by: myshele on Jul 24, 2006 5:18 PM
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I'm originally from a working-class town in Connecticut (despite stereotypes that everyone in Connecticut is rich!), so would have had to pay out of state tuition at UCLA, which I considered transferring to. I also would have had to repeat my freshman year -- USC and many other schools have a nice little scam where they give their general ed classes obscure titles so they don't transfer anywhere else.
As for meaningful jobs, there weren't many in Connecticut (where my rent was free) when I was looking. Maybe they were plentiful in other places, but competition is fierce for social change jobs, especially when you're up against trustafarians who can afford to move around or take low-paid gigs for awhile.
At any rate, my point in the article is that you don't get hit with debt all at once. Everyone has a slightly different way of getting buried, but with so many people trying to dig out, isn't it worthwhile to examine some of the ways it happens?
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» RE: clarification
Posted by: leucas
» RE: clarification
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: clarification
Posted by: terihu
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Posted by: aladdinsane on Jul 24, 2006 6:17 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do not understand the argument that we need to start providing free money, forgiving loans, etc. all these students. If you've decided that you want to major in something, knowingly, that will never earn you more than say $40,000... good for you, I'm glad you're doing what you like, but you have no right, and expectation that someone else can, or SHOULD be footing the bill for your self-indulgent education (and isn't all worthwhile education just that). At the end result this money has to come from SOMEWHERE. Some human person has to contribute that money for YOUR (and MY) education.
The fact that it is difficult for you, or anyone to pay off your loans doesn't make it RIGHT that someone ELSE should foot the bill. Education is a personal responsibility and is not a right, if it is worth it, it's worth working hard for, and taking on any required burden, not expecting someone else (Uncle Sam) to do it for you.
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» RE: Culture of Entitlement.
Posted by: ortichi
» RE: Culture of Entitlement.
Posted by: LouisFallert
» RE: Culture of Entitlement.
Posted by: DRosen
» Oh sure, let's all be engineers and software developers...
Posted by: sln70
» RE: Culture of Entitlement.
Posted by: Samantha Vimes
» RE: Culture of Entitlement.
Posted by: PickleBarrel
» RE: Culture of Entitlement.
Posted by: tlan
» RE: Culture of Entitlement.
Posted by: CollD
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Posted by: Econotarian on Jul 24, 2006 9:06 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the government wants to hire those kinds of jobs, that is another story. But giving false hopes to students that they can make it, only for them to find out they can't, is stupid.
I made my choices based on the values I had been taught -- that helping others is more important than making money for yourself, meaningful career is more important than net worth, and brains, determination, and charisma are the key ingredients of success.
Unfortunately, these socialist concepts don't work, despite the desire of intelligent and otherwise well-educated people to hold onto them. Your value to humanity is what you get paid for, which is directly relevant to your learning of skills that are valued in the marketplace. And net worth is important.
There is nothing wrong with helping others for free, but you have to help yourself first by helping others in exchange for money. Once you are rich, then look into redistributing your wealth.
Another thing to think about is that every free market transaction is an increase in wealth for both parties, or else they would not partake in the transaction. Lawyers are helping people, doctors are helping people, computer programmers are helping people, stock brokers are helping people, corporate CEOs are helping people, and they are all earning good money while doing so.
My suggestion to young people is to make as much money as you can from age 20 to 30, then if you can put a million or two aside, then you have all kinds of options for the future. You could take several years off and volunteer, or do part-time consulting and spend the rest of your life doing art or whatever.
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» RE: a socialist mindset is its own reward
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: a socialist mindset is its own reward
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: a socialist mindset is its own reward
Posted by: noname101
» RE: a socialist mindset is its own reward
Posted by: dllevine
» RE: a socialist mindset is its own reward
Posted by: jackie
» RE: a socialist mindset is its own reward
Posted by: dllevine
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Posted by: Bobsays on Jul 25, 2006 4:46 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I graduated I still had some debt (but I was able to keep this seriously down by working). I graduated into the big recession crash of 1989/90. Jobs for university graduates were rare and most organisations canned their graduate schemes.
I looked around and noticed many friends were broke and did things like move back home. I instead got a job as a manager in a hospital (and all my friends looked down on me because it wasn't something at the New York Times). But I didn't care. I really enjoyed the work (helping cancer patients) and met some of the most interesting and intelligent people I have ever worked with (the doctors, nurses, allied medical personnel). I also was now earning enough - and I saved every penny - to pay off my debts in just over a year. I learned a lot in that job - medicine, management, people skills, handling crisis - etc.
I then moved on to my dream job after that. But it was a great start to my working career, and it felt really good to start off a working career in my field with no debts and cash in the bank. From an outside perspective, doing that job was the wrong thing to do (I studied history) but actually it put me on a solid footing and enabled me to also support my wife as she started on her career.
I now make a lot of money as a consultant and have the freedom to choose who and where I work. I have also been able to cash in on that hospital experience for my later contracts.
I run my finances and consulting in a business-like fashion. I see my duty is to make sure I am paid properly for my work (no freebies). When I have cash (and can help with the household expenses) I am buying myself freedom. I agree that students should go for as much cash as you can get the market to give you. And save.
A friend of mom did the whole seriel degree thing. She kept thinking each rung on the academic ladder would pay off. BUt it didn't and she just ended up really badly in debt. She is now retired and faces the horrible prospect of paying off debt from her pension. This means no freedom to even travel or do the other things people hope to do when they retire. It is a sad state of affairs.
My warning is to all students: don't rack up seriel degrees and debt. Get earning high as soon as possible and make sure you pay off the first degree's debt first.
Run your life like a business: stick to your values and ideals, but remember as an individual you are a business, not a socialist entity. The state may or may not turn itself into a socialist entity, but you need to look after your finances first.
Don't volunteer for no money. Look around, there is always a way to get paid for doing what you want to do. Make sure your employer provides skills training and you kill two birds with one stone. Drop any baggage you may have learned from your parents (soppy notions of saving the world etc.). You can do more for the world if you have money, and if you feel confident and successful. It is up to those who have a mission to save to make the effort to secure funding for their initiatives. As we know, fundraising in the helping sectors is big business and with a good strategy, an agency can always find the money.
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» Forgive me, but you sound really smug. Letting money run your life makes you successful. BUT...
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Forgive me, but you sound really smug. Letting money run your life makes you successful. BUT...
Posted by: aladdinsane
» Touched a nerve there, did I.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Touched a nerve there, did I.
Posted by: aladdinsane
» You did read "America's 100 Years," the Sherill article today, right?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: You did read "America's 100 Years," the Sherill article today, right?
Posted by: aladdinsane
» The price of a wholesome world: "Anything a human has done, I am capable of doing."--Sigmund Freud.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Herbert Marcuse, Ayn Rand, Plato, and Aristotle--The debate continues.
Posted by: meadowlake59
» Almost missed your comment. Glad I didn't.
Posted by: Sojourner
» Live like Ayn Rand, vote like Marx
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: You did read "America's 100 Years," the Sherill article today, right?
Posted by: symcokid
» Bobsays - look, I'm going to tell you this ONE MORE TIME... taking a MANAGERIAL JOB
Posted by: sln70
» RE: Here is the truth your university won't tell you
Posted by: lamar
» It's 100 per cent true
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Here is the truth your university won't tell you
Posted by: gideonh
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Posted by: TechnophobeII on Jul 25, 2006 2:04 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Right now, that same University's tuition is $2,000 per quarter and they want to raise it!! That's a compound growth rate, over 40 years, of just under 9%. Almost THREE times the rate of inflation during that same time, including the horrific inflations of the middle '70's.
No, the real culprit in student debt is the inability of Universities everwhere to control their cost structures. They demand more money from their legislatures (or, in the case of private universities, raise their endowments, tuitions, etc.) but heaven forbid that they control their costs. A college prof's pay, perks and other bennies are sacrosanct, not to be questioned by the great unwashed or the University Administration. If you doubt this, just watch your political process on support of higher education in your state or country. Thus, universities have coped with this 9% compound "adversity" by getting many of their students to impoverish themselves for life. Especially if they want a liberal arts education.
There is a solution---it is called Lean Thinking and comes from Henry Ford and the Toyota Production System. For those of you interested, Google "Lean Thinking" and you'll find a wealth of information. The thought process applies to every organization and every human work endeavor (broad statement, I know, but I haven't found an exception---there may be some). Many, many hospitals are responding to the challenge of rising healthcare costs by employing this strategy, a way of thinking about TIME. And giving the customer more of what they need---solid medical attention and time while involving the entire workforce in Lean Thinking.
Even some state governments are taking up the challenge, albeit much more slowly than the private sector, healthcare, and NGO's. Universities will be dead last. But, imagine that Universities were able to STOP, dead in its tracks, the cost monster and not raise any costs for the next 10 years or more. It could be done. Costs could even go DOWN, radical as that may seem. It took 40 years to get here, it could take 10 years or more to get earning power and the cost of higher education back in line.
One more example of how the disparity in the rise of education costs relates to earning power. In 1958, I worked on a summer job making $2.05 per hour---which was big pay. They were very busy so I worked lots of overtime. In that year, tuition was $90/quarter and room and board was $225.00. Thus, I could earn my quarter's tuition and living costs in just 154 hours of work, ignoring taxes and such. That is about 4 weeks of work, not including overtime. So, in the 16 week span between spring and fall quarters, I was able to earn and save enough for the whole year's education plus expenses. Today, getting a $12.00 per hour job for summer is hard but can be done. However, it now requires 317 hours of work to cover one quarter's tuition ($2000) and dorm ($1800). Many people make significantly less than $12.00/hr for a summer job.
Thus, you see the long term effect of uncontrollable cost rises by the Universities. That, ladies and gentlemen, is the real culprit for your debt dilemma.
Technophobe II
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» Academics have a lot to answer for
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Academics have a lot to answer for
Posted by: alm
» RE: Academics have a lot to answer for
Posted by: techphile
» RE: Academics have a lot to answer for
Posted by: jackie
» RE: I agree
Posted by: Urstrly
» RE: The real culprit - more in the mix
Posted by: dancerkc
» RE: Universities Have No Accountability & Are Bureaucratic
Posted by: NoPCZone
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Posted by: Joe Ox on Jul 25, 2006 3:29 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, just reading this tale, with its implied sadness and begging for sympathy was laughable. USC? Scotland? I couldn't care less if USC has the best program in the universe, and if Scotland saved her 75%, it is a dream experience as far as location and environment for this woman. Maybe the 2nd best, or even the 8th best program could have worked? And poor you, you had to pay $2000 for a PC. I was actually thinking this had to be parady.
Almost everyone has some loans to deal with. The problem lies with first the sense that no matter how expensive to earn, and how unlikely it is to pay off, you have the right to become whatever you want and everyone else should lay aside and let you be all you can be baby, coupled with the self rightiousness of it being an ambition to help others, and this somehow makes it even extra special and therefore horrible these loans are hounding you....absurd.
If there was a shortage of, a degree of difficulty is achieving, and a vibrant demand for whatever it is you are doing, then in most cases it will pay off. Indeed had you not chosen the exotic route you chose, this would have paid off too...state college near home, grants, jobs, it all works out. Your ability to not only get the degree in the way you wish, but that you should be debt free, is not my problem. I can just hear the nasal intonation as it is described, "I did my prereqs at USC, then turned a couple of semesters at Edinburg in their blah blah blah program you know"....Talk about elitist and the author is young.
It scares me a little that there is little disagreement here. This is how we got the National Endowment for the Arts...it was decided that we simply could not advance our civilization without every kook sticking a dead frog in a jar of food coloring getting to express himself that, if the people had no interest, the government would not let these essential things go unexpressed and they would pay for it.
I can see it now, The National Endowment for Spoiled Kids Who Want an Exotic International Education So They Can Save The World"
You form the acronym.
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» RE: Are You Kidding
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Are You Kidding
Posted by: LeDiablePlaisant
» RE: Are You Kidding
Posted by: dllevine
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Posted by: adp3d on Jul 27, 2006 4:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I think her tale is rather typical...
Posted by: alm
» RE: I think her tale is rather typical...
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
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Posted by: MiniBugg on Jul 27, 2006 5:00 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-Universities are putting up their fees, AGAIN. This is partially to cover the increased cost in living; but is well and truely above the rate of inflation. For some educators this is the third fee rise in as many years.
-Student debt is rife. The goverment has recently introduced interest free student loans & bank overdrafts as part of combative measures. Personally, I think it's going to encourage people to borrow to live. Especially the people that are just outside the financial assistance brackets. And you can get these loans from the age of 16.
-Financial Assistance. You aren't eligible for any until the age of 18, even if you are at tertiary. The eligibility brackets are fairly constrictive and reliant on your parents net earnings. But there are all sorts of 'exceptions' available if you are Maori. This confuses and annoys a lot of people.
-Non transferable degrees. Well, frankly, our whole qualifications system is non transferable and an absolute waste of time. Who implimented NCEA? Our whole university system is slowly being transfered into the NZQA framework, which is effectively rendering our education useless overseas. It's highly subjective and the entire curriculum varies immensly from school to school. If I can't understand the marks I've gotten, how are people who don't know the qualifications system supposed to work it out?
-Part time jobs. These can be extremely hard to find and keep, especially in the smaller centers ie Napier, Palmeston North. There is a lot of seasonal work available, especially if you come from a rural background. But if you are an utter townie you'll be lucky to find a summer job. Unless you head to the fast food joints.
I sat down and worked it out the other day. By the time I finish my tertiary education, even with my savings, I can expect to be AT LEAST $25k in debt. At the age of 22. And when I decide to go overseas I will probably have to redo at least two years of my training to ensure that I am of the standard they require.
Least in America you have an internationally recognised qualifications system.
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Posted by: rsaxto on Jul 27, 2006 5:33 AM
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Posted by: nosylae on Jul 27, 2006 6:09 AM
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I bet not. More and more people in this country think that the more education you get, the better off you will be. But, in all reality, all the higher education people stll need blue collar workers. No matter where you live, but especially where there are a lot of white collar jobs in cities and towns across America, the price of blue collar work is going up for a simple reason: SUPPLY AND DEMAND!
So I say to all you higher educated types: keep going to school because the price to fix a busted sewer pipe is going to keep going up. Sooner than you think.
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» RE: Hello Blue collar work!
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Hello Blue collar work!
Posted by: froggeymonkey
» Advocating for the trades
Posted by: Sunfell
» My degree has served me well - I don't want to be a plumber!
Posted by: Steve_in_NH
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Posted by: dikaiosyne on Jul 27, 2006 7:39 AM
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» RE: alternatives?
Posted by: fukcit
» RE: alternatives?
Posted by: CollD
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Posted by: makeadifference on Jul 27, 2006 8:50 AM
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» RE: makeadifference
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
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Posted by: herb on Jul 27, 2006 9:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At some point true patriots will again rise up to fight this oppression. For the time being ignorance and misguided self interest sees too many acting against their own true interests and the interest of the country. There will come a time when the boot of repression will be too onerous to endure and we will free ourselves once again. Until then too many individuals will suffer needlessly and the dignity and development of our nation will be sacrificed.
Herb Ruhs, MD
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» RE: So many ignorant, thoughtless, meanspirited comments
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: So many ignorant, thoughtless, meanspirited comments
Posted by: Uncle Sam
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Posted by: psudadgrad on Jul 27, 2006 2:37 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Goodbye middle class America.
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Posted by: Nosila Sevarg on Jul 28, 2006 1:56 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is really sad we let kids major in foolish things -- like art history, anthropology, basket weaving -- at expensive schools and let banks lend them money to do so!
I went to college and majored in nursing. I didn't "love it" but I knew I could ALWAYS find a decent job.
And THAT'S why I went to college...not to study some egghead major that only the wealthy can afford.
Someone needs to tell not-so-wealthy kids today that college
is primarily for learning an employable skill and not to take classes because they're "fun" or because you'll "love it."
If you do love it, that 's great...but you do what you can to get decent work and pay your bills.
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» RE: I was ready to commiserate...until
Posted by: CollD
» RE: I was ready to commiserate...until
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: I was ready to commiserate...until
Posted by: ElectronRunes
» RE: I was ready to commiserate...until
Posted by: CollD
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Posted by: CollD on Jul 28, 2006 2:16 PM
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Posted by: twistedwinch on Jul 31, 2006 3:47 AM
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» RE: Out of state tuitions are ridiculous.
Posted by: CollD
» RE: Out of state tuitions are ridiculous.
Posted by: twistedwinch
» RE: Out of state tuitions are ridiculous.
Posted by: RobW
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sln70 on Jul 31, 2006 4:11 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. The men are piping up with their holier than thou "I was smart to take mechanical engineering (or add male dominated profession here) because society values that line of work" and I had loans and I paid them off because I'm smart!
2. The women are countering with the argument that they are hard workers who took "soft sciences" and now can't find a job but that they still owe the same money the men owed upon graduating.
3. The men are calling the women stupid, essentially, for 'falling for' their hearts and wanting to do something that benefits society.
4. The women are pointing out that their work helping the poor or educating young people is just as important as writing java script.
5. The men are saying "that's clearly not true or you'd be making money. You made your choice, suck it up."
*sigh* Most men are SO blind AND heartless. Even when they are on the top of the heap, they insist on kicking the people who are down. Even though it was THEIR gender-specific upbringing that led them into careers in engineering they can't abide the notion that *women's* gender-specific upbringing led them into education in the soft-sciences.
It doesn't seem to occur to anyone that the REASON society pays engineers more money than teachers is because MALES dominate engineering. Historically, the minute women move en masse into a field of work, the pay for that work has gone down.
and you can't convince me that "the education is much more demanding" for hard sciences than for soft sicences. What's easier? Finding an empiraical solution to a problem using pre-designed hard-and-fast formulas or finding a solution to a problem based on scattered, wide ranging evidence and years of history with no proven 'right or wrong?'
What really really needs to happen is that we need to revalue "work." Screw paying some dude who can make pretty flashy databses more than someone who can keep a sick child comfortable. Screw paying MBAs a fortune to dream up ways to get money out of the workers more than people who can help someone recover from addiction, or get homeless kids off the streets.
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» RE: It's the gender divide, over and over again
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» How about nursing or teaching?
Posted by: medstudgeek
» Nurses are also horribly overworked
Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: How about nursing or teaching?
Posted by: mizkaye
» RE: It's the gender divide, over and over again
Posted by: FauxPorteno
» Hey brother, who controls the legislature AND the economy?
Posted by: sln70
» RE: Hey brother, who controls the legislature AND the economy?
Posted by: hymalaia
» the very fact that you call jobs "female oriented"
Posted by: sln70
» RE: the very fact that you call jobs "female oriented"
Posted by: hymalaia
» RE: Hey brother, who controls the legislature AND the economy?
Posted by: FauxPorteno
» it's "toeing" - not "towing."
Posted by: sln70
» watch your grammar, spelling and phraseology from now on moron!!
Posted by: FauxPorteno
» RE: It's the gender divide, over and over again
Posted by: terihu
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Posted by: BrigidsBlest on Jul 31, 2006 5:21 AM
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I look at how much student loan funding has been cut in recent years by the federal administration and have to wonder if certain elements in the government WANT us to remain uneducated and poor.
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» RE: Been there, done that.
Posted by: ElectronRunes
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Posted by: Farmertim on Jul 31, 2006 5:26 AM
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But upon reading the comments it seems I have heard them before.....from investors in the stock market.
It sounds as if the Higher education system of this country is no more a shell game than Wall street to fleece the general public out of its hard earned income.
Sure a few do well, but just enough for others to see it may be worth the gamble.
The end result is just the same though..wisom is seldom coupled with easy money or mulitple degree's.....and either way money is funneled upwards to a regal few.
Farmer Tim
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» I absolutely agree
Posted by: sln70
» RE: Sounds familiar....
Posted by: dllevine
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Posted by: kamcallen on Jul 31, 2006 6:36 AM
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Karon
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Posted by: DrXyzzy on Jul 31, 2006 7:36 AM
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I suspect that raising the level of education in America would also go a long way to restoring a working democracy in place of the present sociopathic plutocracy.
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» RE: we should invest in our young people
Posted by: harris
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Posted by: april on Jul 31, 2006 7:46 AM
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I chose my 5th choice college because they gave me nearly a full scholarship and I cobbled together the rest in grants and workstudy with a 2,500 loan for the last two years. I graduated $5000 in debt. I majored in psychology and anthropology and really wanted to go to grad school for anthropology. But when I spoke with many who had and heard their horror stories of high debt and no jobs, I thought I should take some time to work and make sure I knew what I wanted to do. I feared that higher education could be a way of hiding from reality while indulging in important and fascinating topics, but without a sense of how to apply that knowlege and possibly gambling a lot of money I didn't have.
I ultimately did not go to grad school and feel I learned a lot about how things work in our country and society by working a variety of jobs. Opportunities opened up for me that would have never happened had I stayed in the safety of higher education without facing the consequences of debt right away. Everytime we sign on the dotted line or use plastic we are borrowing against ourselves, our freedom and future choices. These decisions should never be taken lightly and in the case of higher education I do not feel like its something we should be owed. I realized after awhile that the school I went to did not even make that much difference in the long run. What mattered more were the steps I took in my own development and the places and peers I sought for growth after college. Though I would have loved to have attended my first choice school, I would have graduated possibly 50,000 dollars in debt. I just couldn't justify that.
I advise every young person to think of the financial side of things as much as the ideals of being where you want to be and doing what you love. Because the truth is that your debt levels will greatly affect your choices about those very things when you graduate.
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» RE: choices made under the influence
Posted by: terihu
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Posted by: rwoolley on Jul 31, 2006 8:11 AM
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There is little to no guidance in college about what you should major in to get a job. When you are a first generation attendee, you simply don't know what questions to ask, since it is such a new experience. So you end up majoring in what interests you, since the whole experience is centered around academic exploration and intellectual self-fulfillment rather than something as vulgar as money.
High school was not any better. There was one counselor for each 700 students--not that they would've given good advice even if they had time. Also, when you take all honors classes, it is simply assumed that you will get a four-year degree, and no one ever mentions that you may be able to make more money getting an RN or dental hygiene certificate or somethihng (and it would cost much less.)
By the time you realize your mistake, it is too late to change anything. So a lot of people throw good money after bad and get even more degrees, and are even less employable.
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» RE: rix
Posted by: rickcreswell@yahoo.com
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Posted by: techphile on Jul 31, 2006 8:22 AM
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I diasgree with one thing that the writer said however, the University of Edinburough is not an obscure school is is famous all over the world
Plus she has prestigious schools on her resume and that will help her land a better paying job than an anthroplogy major who went to st cloud state.
She may be forced to take work which pays her more, I am in a little bit of the same boat so are most lawyers and doctors who have huge amounts of debt.
Maybe things wil change
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» RE: tenacitus
Posted by: Aussie Kim
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Posted by: McJulie on Jul 31, 2006 9:17 AM
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So major in what you love, especially if that gets you out of school faster, with a higher GPA.
But it is probably unrealistic to expect "a job in your field" afterwards.
For most people, it seems a BA pays off when they go slave away for an enormous company like FedEx or the US government, where that BA makes you more likely to get hired, get hired at a higher salary, and improves your chances to advance in the company.
That's it.
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» RE: Major what you love vs. major what will pay...
Posted by: zinnia
» RE: Major what you love vs. major what will pay...
Posted by: constantreader
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Posted by: speed on Jul 31, 2006 9:55 AM
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Posted by: chitownfiloz on Jul 31, 2006 9:55 AM
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Despite the ignorant comments above, the problem is not that students study "frivolous" disciplines like anthropology (oh, yes, deep inquiry into groups of human beings lacks any value at all! Come on, you people -- and I stress people-- can't really believe that, can you?) nor is it the elaborate architecture on campuses driving up tuition costs since mostly those kinds of expenses are paid for through endowments that end up not having much of anything to do with tuition costs (and of course, God forbid we spend money in order to make universities, as they have historically been, aesthetically pleasing places with cutting-edge technology -- we used to do education without all of these useless amenities -- they were called monasteries). The problem is not that academics demand such high salaries (although wouldn't it be great to live in a society where those who invested the most time and effort and money into the highest levels of formal education were finanacially rewarded for doing so?); the truth is that no one becomes an academic for the money. Only the most highly sought after public intellectuals and those who write supremely successful books will get rich and I suspect that accounts for about 1 or 2% of us. The rest of us will be very happy to attain middle-class status. You know, if we can ever get our loans paid off.
So, the real problem is that this welfare program of loaning money to people who couldn't otherwise afford to go to school and invest in those who wanted to become intellectual leaders by receiving terminal degrees has become yet another business venture for the government. Instead of holding your student loan, the government now is in the practice of quickly selling it off to a company who is not interested in investing in you, but rather, quite clearly concerned with turning as much of a profit as it can. This not only affects the rate of interest charged (anyone notice the recent hikes?) but also the kinds of repayment and debt forgiveness that are available.
Yes, it's true that this is only one part of a complex set of problems in the arena of student loans and the cost of higher education. However, to my thinking, most of the problems in that web are created by the kind of thinking displayed above -- that making a good living is more important than making a good life and that economic usefullness trumps all other considerations when choosing a major (I sure hope I never have a nurse "care" for me who "didn't really like" studying nursing but did it because it was "useful"). Suggesting that the government subsidize the interests of bright young people and their ability to study those interests in depth is labeled "socialist" with the proverbial insinuation that anything with socialist sensibilities is evil and debilitating. Yet, in our late moment of capitalism, and I am not making a totalizing argument against capitalism per se, it seems that the thinking that says, "academics shouldn't make any money and the government shouldn't support 'useless' pursuits (someone actually included "English" in one of these lists!) and people should study something that is economically advantageous even if it isn't of passionate interest," is the kind of thinking that saps us of our humanity and reduces us to economic units. That seems rather evil and debilitating to me.
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Posted by: FauxPorteno on Jul 31, 2006 11:08 AM
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An article in today's Bloomberg:
"My client approached a school for a loan and was told by the school that his loan would be processed faster if he went with a lender on the preferred list,'' said John Pearson, a certified public accountant and certified college-planning specialist in Norwalk, Connecticut. ``The preferred system can often deter students from getting the best deal on a loan.''
``Colleges won't tell you that you can get a loan down the street and save money,'' adds Brian Greenberg, a CPA and certified college-planning specialist in Marlton, New Jersey. ``Anything is negotiable. You can get your money anywhere.''
How does a lender get on a school's preferred list? Is there some quid pro quo? The college-controlled lending process has been challenged recently by MyRichUncle.com, which is owned by MRU Holdings Inc., a small specialty finance company with $24 million in student loans through March 31.
Raza Khan, president of the company, alleges through national advertising that lenders offer colleges revenue-sharing deals, or a percentage of the profit of a loan; ``opportunity pools'' of loan money for high-risk borrowers; and gifts and trips to aid officials."
Read that last sentence real closely -"revenue-sharing deals, or a percentage of the profit of a loan", "gifts and trips to aid officials". Look people, in case you haven't realized it yet, the school administration is getting huge kickbacks for getting you indebted to preferred lenders. This is how it has always worked. Next time your dean takes a vacation - remember where that money came from. It truly is time to start stringing people up, watching their legs writhe in agony as they contemplate how they fucked over thousands of students before they make their journey to hell!
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Posted by: Awake on Jul 31, 2006 11:54 AM
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Departments of social sciences and the arts were thus able to funnel unsuspecting undergraduates into their programs. As graduation approached, we were calmly told that we really couldn't actually do anything with an undergraduate degree in our fields; those degrees merely prepared us for a graduate program, where we could REALLY learn the field. In other words, the elevated intellects we had constructed at the opportunity cost of learning something useful were, in fact, dumbed down, versions of the real thing, as well as useless for the purpose of employment.
As the saying went, with a BA in the social sciences and a dollar you could ride on the subway.
Why not call it what it is: fraud.
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Posted by: hymalaia on Jul 31, 2006 12:55 PM
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Um, no. What men are saying is that they made a decision to study a field that would pay so they wouldn't have financial problems down the road. Women made the opposite choice, knowing full well the major's they chose would not pay very well, and paying of college debt would be a lifetime endeavor. That's fine, but don't bitch about it when reality unfolds and you find yourself not enjoying a life of constant financial debt. Don't go around bitching about how your "underpaid" and society just doesn't value your kind of "work". What men are saying, in a nutshell is to suck it up and deal with the consequences of your actions. Do you think they major in hard sciences cause it's enjoyable? Um, no. They do it cause they are willing to work hard for a financial reward (not that the amount of work done always correlates with the reward, but that's a different topic entirely). Now that might sound shallow to someone who wants to "save the world", but they understand how miserable financial hardship can be and took precautions to avoid it. After all, you can't save anyone unless you can take care of yourself first. Because you or someone else did not take the same precautions, don't go around trying to raise the value of work that, in our economic system (which like it or not, is what we have to go on) has no value. Going down that road can only end in collapse. If you don't like it, you can go start up your commune, I won't try and stop you.
As for the main article, I echo others who have implied that universities are businesses and the professors who work there are salespeople first, educators second. If you got scammed, just take comfort in knowing you aren't alone. Believe me, I wish things didn't work out that way but that's just the reality. I learned a lot at college and had some good experiences, but there is no way in hell I can justify the price tag, especially considering it left me with very little in terms of practical employment skills, and some debt.
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» RE: wake up to the real world...
Posted by: hymalaia
» what if we ALL
Posted by: sln70
» RE: wake up to the real world...
Posted by: Kyso K
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Posted by: Jameson10314 on Jul 31, 2006 1:31 PM
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Posted by: SDres11 on Jul 31, 2006 3:36 PM
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» why did you put abortions in quotes?
Posted by: sln70
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Posted by: LadyLiberty on Jul 31, 2006 4:39 PM
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Posted by: EZJ on Jul 31, 2006 5:43 PM
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The main thing I have learned, is very profound, but I learned it late.
"You cannot consume more than you produce"
Pretty simple philosophy really. I'm no longer a fan of loans or credit.
I have set something up for those of you who are business oriented, and want to try to find ways to start your own businesses, or expand your current ones.
This site is totally new, and I built in on the cheap for free.
(because i'm so deep in debt!!!)
http://businessideasforum.runboard.com/
Hopefully some people here can share and brainstorm ideas, and benefit from this creation.
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Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam on Jul 31, 2006 8:24 PM
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Nowadays to be considered independent for education purposes you have to be either 24, a graduate student, a parent, a ward of the courts/orphan, enrolled in the armed services, or provide three letters from professionals (social workers, doctors, etc.) that prove your parents abused you. The only feasible option is to get "married." I did this to pay for school as my parents wouldn't support even support my education enough to sign the papers allowing me to take out student loans, and I have met several others who have done the same. Keep in mind these aren't real marriages, but the signing of a paper in front of a judge.
The vast majority of undergraduate students are not allowed to be independent of their parents without jumping through some ridiculous hoops. Even if a 21 year old bartender who works full time nights is supporting themselves completely (including insurance, tuition, and all other expenses) they are still considered dependents of their parents in terms of educational expenses.
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» RE: Parental support required
Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam
» RE: Parental support required
Posted by: Kyso K
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Posted by: akchang on Aug 1, 2006 10:50 AM
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The heart of the issue is our belief that education is a key to social mobility and if people "just got an education" they would be better off. This is akin to the bootstrap analogy. People need to pull themselves up and going to college is the only way to do it. Unfortunately college is a money making machine. I went to a public university, and even then, at every turn, there was some jackal trying to squeeze an extra buck out of me for things that would be considered necessities for school such as books, readers, and food on campus.
We see students get taken by the system all the time. Kids do not learn about credit card debt (I learned about it by watching people in my family trying to pay off that mounting debt). Nobody teaches you how to navigate the unveristy system to get the most out of it for as little money as possible. And nobody lays out the fact that a changing economic climate means that we are forced to make decisions we wouldn't under dfferent circumstances.
The truth is that the system is designed to work this way for a reason and we have to find our way to navigate it as best we can while living up to our integrity and conscience. Being raised middle or owning class, I have an advantage in understanding the educatoin system. That's why colleges now have programs for people who are the first in their family to to go university. Such schools understand that there is a need to get people up to speed on how the system works.
Let's not thumb our nose at the author for what she decided to study. It's irrelevent. Even if you study a "practical" vocation that pays well, you will still be forced to face mounting debts in a system designed to make money off of lending money.
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Posted by: allthingslucid on Aug 1, 2006 1:43 PM
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Posted by: MikeT on Aug 1, 2006 2:41 PM
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That way they're old and cynical by the time they pay off their debts.
If we really want to change the world, we'll require personal finance classes in high school. Maybe then our kids can learn what it's taken my generation so long to learn (if we've learned it at all):
1. Money isn't magic. Having it doesn't make you a saint. Neither does not having it.
2. Pay cash or do without.
3. Life isn't fair. Just because you think you need it or think you deserve it doesn't mean you can afford it.
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Posted by: hotlipsin61 on Aug 1, 2006 4:14 PM
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It would be nice if everyone could go to a top-notch university like USC, Pennsylvania or Columbia, but my lord the tuition is astronomically high, and grants are one solution to help ease the financial burden on families.
Debt brings misery and health problems. It can last your entire adult life.
There must be a way to make education affordable and accessible to all. Too many colleges and universities are run like a business. A college student is a mere dollar sign to textbook companies and to the institution.
But we all know nothing in life is "free." We pay a high price for knowledge. That is debt.
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Posted by: Jasonix on Aug 1, 2006 5:34 PM
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Let's look at the leading contenders:
High Tech
This field is rapidly being outsourced to India, China, and other nations. Many American software engineers have fallen out of the job market, while employers import Indian engineers on work visas, or just send the work overseas. I'm a technical writer, and I expect my career to be dead within five years. Same goes for other high-tech jobs. The only area that might have some job security is network administrator or IT support.
Medicine
Doctors are already getting out of the field due to student loan debt and insurance premiums. Hospitals are importing foreign nurses to work for lower wages - so forget about nursing. (Even my dentist office doesn't have a single American - it has two Indians, a Ukrainian, a Brazilian, and an Irish.)
Accounting
The IRS is already using Indian accountants. Forget about it.
Business administration
This field is hard to get into to, and you better be tall, good-looking, extroverted, and pathologically competitive to even think about making a go of it. If you have the slightest sense of morals or conscience, forget it. And if you aren't tall, symmetrical, and have "executive hair," forget it.
Law
There are already too many lawyers, so getting into the field is tough. You also have to be a maniac, much like the types who go into Business. Few people can pull it off.
Read it and weep. Your future is cancelled.
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Posted by: canadalauren on Aug 1, 2006 9:44 PM
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Posted by: terihu on Aug 2, 2006 5:11 AM
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USC: $47K/year x4= $188K
UCLA, CA Resident: $21-23K/year x4= $84-92K
Non-resident: $40.2K x4= $160.8K
If she had already been in CA for a year, and was over 18, she could apply for residency and get the in-state rate. That's more than double for a school that is only a few miles away, AND UCLA is ranked higher than USC.
Now, since Goldberg's from Connecticut, I thought I'd look at that state's top school: Yale. Imagine my surprise when it costs LESS than USC!
$43.7K x4= $174.8
But this is the real shocker:
UConn: $6.5 (live at home)-16K/year x4= $26-64K
Obviously, the best deal for a smart, savvy Connecticut girl. Maybe not the most exciting choice, but hey, that's life. Being debt-free has its advantages.
For the woman in Illinois who said for her two kids, the one's public school cost more than the other's private school:
UIUC: $18.6 x4= $74.4K
I compared it to the top ranked school in Illinois:
Northwestern: $47K x4= $188K
But even at a small, obscurish private, Knox, the cost is way higher:
$34K x4= $136K
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» RE: Numbers
Posted by: Kyso K
» RE: Numbers
Posted by: fleurdelamer
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Posted by: jameskronecker on Aug 2, 2006 11:06 PM
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The humanities, social sciences, and arts are important in understanding our history, nature, and place in the world. However, the truth seems to be that the number of young people studying these subjects is much greater than the number of employment positions requiring such high levels of education. Hence, college graduates settling for retail and service jobs. But with the cost of a college education today makes this incredibly hard, unless one had the power to see through the fog and the foresight to go to a community college or state university.
Ideally college students today should be able to find out their employment prospects before enrolling in a given college degree program. Then, if it isn't satisfactory, they will study something else. Those that want to take a risk will, but then will have no right to complain.
Unfortunately though, the universities and college departments have a large incentive to lie about the employment prospects a graduate can expect, and thus regularly hide, misrepresent, or outright lie about such information ("it doesn't matter what you get your bachelor's in"). Furthermore, young students usually do not have the foresight to even ask the relevant questions, perhaps because it is discouraged or because their own parents have been given faulty information.
In any case, until the students are advised to ask the right questions and the information is made accessable, this educational system will continue to take advantage of bright-eyed, idealistic high schoolers, chaining them to student loans for many, many years, and producing jaded, disaffected individuals like the author of this article/rant.
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Posted by: CollD on Aug 4, 2006 6:37 AM
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You know, maybe 10 years ago you were able to save some cash, get a pell grant and do your little dream. Its barely feasible now. Pell grants have been cut, and don't being to even cover a 1/3 of yearly tuition, even if you are going to an in state public university. MOst people here are so far out of reality, they think college is the same as it was 10,20, 30 years ago when they were able to save up money. I could hardly affford my books working full time all summer and work study throughout the school year.
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Posted by: fleurdelamer on Aug 28, 2006 6:02 PM
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Best of luck to you. You will benefit from this experience, trust me.
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Posted by: spacemarine83 on Sep 5, 2006 6:16 AM
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Fundamentalist Camp Trains God's Little Army
Generation X's Debt Headache
Excerpt: Downscaling the Dreams of Youth




