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WireTap

Student Debts, Stunted Lives

By Nicholas von Hoffman, The Nation. Posted March 23, 2006.


If students during the '60s had been saddled with the debts our present-day young people carry, there might not have been a civil rights movement.

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The Democratic Party did not find her. The Hollywood liberals did not find her. The reactionaries are not looking for her. But the Chicago Tribune did find Margo Albert and did understand how significant her plight is.

The paper wrote, "Margo Alpert is on the 30-year plan. Every month between $500 and $600 is automatically deducted from her salary to pay off college loans. By the time the 29-year-old Chicago public-interest lawyer is in her mid-50s and thinking seriously about retirement, she will finally be free of college debt."

The newspaper also found Carrie Gevirtz, a 28-year-old social worker with a degree from the University of Chicago, a $55,000 school debt and an annual salary of $33,000. She is quoted as saying, "I can't afford my lifestyle. I'm not in a position to buy a place. I can't buy a condo and don't know when I would, unless my income changed dramatically. … I was not prepared for this. … It really freaked me out." To make ends meet after deducting her $250 monthly payment on her student loan, Gevirtz has a second job at a health club and does baby-sitting.

Starting July 1 the interest on student loans taken out by students will rise to just less than 7 percent. Loans taken out by parents for students will shoot up to 8.5 percent. The theory the Republican Congress works on is that increases in fees and interest payments from the white-collar masses are not the same as tax increases, some of which might have to be paid by our protected class of billionaire kleptocrats from whom, we are told, all blessings, especially our jobs, flow.

Whenever the subject of the high and ever mounting cost of tuitions and the student loans needed to pay for them comes up, the focus falls on individual financial hardship. We're invited to pity or empathize with Margo Alpert, and she certainly deserves it, but our attention is not drawn to the consequences of these arrangements. Nor is the discussion ever couched in terms of the social control implicit in high tuition and high student-loan interest rates.

The most important consequence of the financial hole the Margo Alperts are in, thanks to their education, is that many of them are going to be childless. Many others will have one child at most. How can a young couple, each with $40,000 or $50,000 of debt, think of having three or four kids? They will have to wait until they are in their late 30s to have a family and by then, when they think of college costs, they will feel compelled to limit themselves to one child.

There's a policy for you! While our legislators are up nights working on new tax gimmicks to further "capital flows," as they like to call their money-grabbing, they are also burning the midnight oil to throw up financial barriers that will keep the middle class from having children. Forget the cant about family values. Make that childless couple values.

There is social control in loading young people up with financial obligations. Burdened with debt and desperate to have and keep a job, there is no way they can take a wild year off, and there is certainly no time for protesting, organizing or causing the kind of social and political trouble young people cause from time to time.

How many young people turn away from low-paying but vital professions because they can't earn enough to pay back their loans? How many potential social workers, pro bono lawyers, journalists, environmentalists, teachers, artists, secondary medical professionals and community workers are we losing?

The two things that make most of us cringe are the thought of "1984" and "The Stepford Wives." In fiction both of those nightmares achieved reality through drugs or chemicals and voodooish alchemy. In actuality America can become a Stepford nation merely by adjusting the price of education and a few interest rates.

Will somebody get angry and start yelling?

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Nicholas Von Hoffman is a columnist for the New York Observer and is the author, most recently, of "A Devil's Dictionary of Business" (Nation Books).

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the right wing won't vote to fund bastions of the left
Posted by: wli on Mar 23, 2006 12:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They made plenty of noise in the 80's about defunding the left. This is part and parcel of it. The only universities or higher learning they want are bible colleges and Federalist Society Klansmen in black robes.

It's well-understood that higher education leads to leftist ideological orientation. That's why the right wing wants to eliminate most universities and convert the remainder to bible colleges, and has been working toward precisely that for 30 years or so (since the Powell memo).

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Good resource on student debt
Posted by: erin_mcgann on Mar 23, 2006 3:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Generation Debt is an excellent resource for those living in the US and dealing with student loan debt.

Even in Canada, where tuition is generally lower even for the 'good schools', student debt is spiralling. My husband and I are still sitting on $30,000 CDN, and we're 29 and 28 respectively - how will manage to have kids or buy a flat? We've moved to the UK recently, and the issues are becoming the same with changes to how students get access to university. This isn't an isolated problem...

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» RE: Good resource on student debt Posted by: Radicalizer
» RE: Good resource on student debt Posted by: tyrannyforyou
Tying the young into conservative agendas
Posted by: brad on Mar 23, 2006 3:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great topic. The most glaring cost of the high debt from higer education loans is the lack of student invlovment in the left and the tying in of the young with the conservative goals of economic expansion and growth of the economy at any sake. With huge debts on their shoulders students are reluctant to strike out for ideological causes, this stiffles the political discourse of the US towards a more conservative bent. Forced to vote and be involved in the politics of self interest are straddled on the young college grad by the debt they incurred. I think you are really on to something here.

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you still have choice - so take it
Posted by: Bobsays on Mar 23, 2006 4:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I graduated with student debt 16 years ago when interest rates were 15 per cent and the economy nose dived into the worst recession since the great depression. It was so bad there were no ads to be seen anywhere - all ad budgets were pulled as every business and public sector organisation retrenched and pinched every penny. I accumulated debt because I was one of the rare sights at my ivy league university: a poor kid from the ghetto with a single mom. I had been treated with condescension all my life by the liberal middle class kids. So what did I do? I got a job in a hospital as a manager and earned good money. At the same time I was involved in community radio, activism and journalism. I worked like a yuppie, even if I didn't earn like a yuppie. And I paid off my student debt in two years. And the liberal middle class kids who always looked down on me for being too serious and lame for working in a hospital? Those losers just racked up the debt even higher by getting an MA. MY wife and I have loads of money, no debt and have high profile, well paid work. We have never compromised on living the bohemian life we like - we travel constantly around the world and everyday feels like an extended holiday. So what is the secret? Well, I look at the control freak middle class liberal kids and see nothing but snotty elitists. They are uptight, always judgemental, and focused on tackling things in a narrow, selfish way. I have great sympathy for anyone who gets ripped off. And I can see that academics are ripping off young peopleall over the place, by charging too much for degrees. But I still believe you call the shots. You can still dictate the terms of life and you are only disempowering yourself by listening to your tutors and professors, who only have their tenure on their minds (and if you are a woman, your body). Get out of the culture of middle class expectations, dump your friends who are racked up entitlement mentality and strike out as an entrepreneur and unconventional thinker. And don't ever rack up debt that will take 30 years to pay off. That is just plain stupid.

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student debt still rising
Posted by: morningstar777 on Mar 23, 2006 4:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My Husband and I are both in the student debt ratio of around 50,000 between the two of us. It has been very tough, and we didn't find "the great jobs" we thought we were going to get, either. Luckily, I got locked into a low interest rate when I consolidated when I did, at a little under 4%. But I am looking at having to go back to school and choose a different field because employers won't give me or him a chance, though we were honor students. The housing here is so ridiculously expensive, the only thing we can afford if we want to buy is in a ghetto neighborhood. NO THANK YOU. As for taking a stand? I have. I have been ignored. I post on my blogs, Listen to Liberal stations, and write my congress only to have them agree with me, and then do another. here in AZ we need a permit to demonstrate. GREAT. I know they "call" us a free society, but free shouldn't come with conditions.

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» RE: student debt still rising Posted by: daniel1982
Doesn't anyone do the Math?
Posted by: AndyF on Mar 23, 2006 5:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I keep reading these articles about excessive loan debt on graduation and never see anywhere that someone thought through how to pay back the loan. You don't buy a house or car unless you are sure that your expected income will be sufficient to pay back the loan, why is school different?

I have 4 kids, my oldest will start college in 2007. He knows what has been saved for him and we'll walk through how much additional support he can expect from family for school, We'll look closely at what the school's he is interested in will cost and how much aid he can expect. If he decides to also borrow money, I'll make sure he understands what a loan will really cost him so that he can make a smart decision about whether to borrow money or go to another school.

I also have two students doing a Practicum on my farm (very similar to an internship) with me this semester. Both are mid 20's and went back to school after working for a few years. One works 1/2 time + f/t school & moved back home to reduce expenses, the second is living on loans and financial aid. It's pretty easy to predict which of the two is more focused and will probably be more successful.

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» that's f*cked up. Posted by: omidele
» like out of a movie Posted by: sln70
» RE: like out of a movie Posted by: MsEithne
» RE: Doesn't anyone do the Math? Posted by: demidesigrrl
» RE: Doesn't anyone do the Math? Posted by: buffeliscious
The issue is jobs
Posted by: wbblack on Mar 23, 2006 5:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another aspect of this problem in real wages in the U.S. -- even for those with college -- have been mostly declining since the 1970. Recently it’s gotten quite bad for college- educated folks. Paul Krugman wrote:

“The 2006 Economic Report of the President tells us that the real earnings of college graduates actually fell more than 5 percent between 2000 and 2004. Over the longer stretch from 1975 to 2004 the average earnings of college graduates rose, but by less than 1 percent per year. “

If you're not making any money, How can you pay back loans?

With the decline of traditional high earning “blue collar” jobs and the floundering of the poorly led labor movement college has become more and more important to land a “good job.” The only problem is there are not enough “good jobs” to go around. Colleges have become big business. There is a glut of educated people and a college degree doesn’t mean what it used to. You need a graduate school degree. I have an M.A. and I work in a union job for Verizon. We need better paying jobs. We need to rebuild the labor movement.
WBBLACK

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» RE: The issue is jobs Posted by: Vyking
This is why The Nation is a joke
Posted by: anothername on Mar 23, 2006 5:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I used to read The Nation, but have not in years.

The quote, "I cannot afford to live my lifestyle" was ridiculous. If you cannot afford the lifestyle, change your lifestyle.

The comment about people so far in debt they must limit their number of children was equally laughable. The reason why wealthy countries have a declining native birthrate is the same reason why non-farmers and women in countries with quality healthcare stop having so many children - fewer children mean greater health and futures for everyone in the family. Yes, there are some individuals who may want to have more children but feel the college debt is too much, but that was their choice to take on the debt instead of having children.

The idea that college pays more in the long run ignores the fact that not everyone will go into a $125,000 starting salary at a law firm or other such company. I know one Washington-based activist who left work to attend law school to take the type of job she wanted - and it was less money than she had been making without the law degree.

Then there was the old-line manufacuturing company that had a generous education benefit. A secretary used the benefit to get a master's degree then expected the company to give her a better job. The company looked at her and saw a secretary, regardless of how many years of school and how many diplomas she had.

I left university without a degree when I started teaching more of the courses than the professors did. I knew I had a brain and I didn't need confirmation of it. I have never felt that my income earning capabilities have suffered because of that lack of paper. Whenever I have considered returning to college, it has been for one reason only, i.e., to make contacts in the type of industry and locations that I want to explore through my own business or as an employee.

Yes, some jobs do need the uniformity afforded by formal schooling - such as engineering, law, and medicine. However, the argument of a global economy and knowledge industries aside, there is still no reason other than arbitrariness that a man or woman entering a mail room job should not be able to advance to become CEO of the company without first attaining a BS, MA, and PhD. If the workforce decline predicted by the baby boomers retiring hits, then college diplomas will no longer seem nearly so important in hiring.

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» I agree Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: I agree Posted by: julamo
» A will a way Posted by: Bobsays
Bakerr1
Posted by: bakerr1 on Mar 23, 2006 7:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The decline in support of education is not addressed but is critical to the discussion. When I began college in 1963 in Michigan, the state government provided approximately53% of the operating costs for universities, today it is approximately 23%! Then it was $108.25 per term for 12 credits or more (on a quarter system). So if you took a "full load" of 5 classes (e.g. 18 Credits) it cost a total of $108.25 for the term, plus your books. Today, its over $200/credit hour in a semester system for the first two years, even more for the junior and senior years - don't even talk about grad shcool.

I left school with a BA and Mstrs with no debt in 1971. NOT possible today.

The practice of cutting budgets til you can drown the gov't in a bathtub has implications for the future including those discussed in the article. Indeed, where will the person's concerned with society come from? the future Public Defender lawyers, social workers, teachers and urban activists.

People shouldn't have to go to Iraq to afford to go to college. Not withstanding the Hospital Administrators good fortune, society benefits I believe from people being able to choose their life's work without the hangman's noose hanging over them of never-to-be-paid off student loans.

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Return of Debtor Prison for the Liberal Elite
Posted by: terradea on Mar 23, 2006 7:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You have huge student loan debt. You are the educated liberal elite. You cannot find work to pay a salary to allow you to pay $1K a month for student debt and get housing and buy food and pay utilities.

You are in default on your student loans. You are sued, a judgment/settlement is reached, and you must pay about 1/2 the original debt amount. Thank god there is no debtors' prison, right? Think again.

The discharged debt amount now becomes undeclared income. Ooops! No taxes were paid on this income. Judgment for IRS - you must pay back taxes in addition to the student loan settlement amount (back to square one!). But wait! You have no more money than you did before...what is the penalty for tax evasion? Hello, incarceration (aka, DEBTOR PRISON).

WARNING: If your passport can be revoked or withheld due to unpaid child support or back taxes, YOUR PASSPORT WILL BE REVOKED OR WITHHELD FOR UNPAID STUDENT LOAN DEBT SINCE IT BECOMES UNREPORTED, UNTAXED INCOME.

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» Exactly.. Posted by: annalise
I agree with Bob
Posted by: henriksenv on Mar 23, 2006 7:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All of my friends who are lawyers racked up huge debts in school. So what did they do? they all went to work for big firms, making big money, for 3 or 4 years. Yes they worked like dogs, and some of them felt like sell-outs. But after 4 years they had paid down their debt enough to be able to quit their corporate jobs and take the lower-paying but more fulfilling public service jobs they had wanted in the first place.

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» RE: I agree with Bob Posted by: Vyking
TnMan
Posted by: TnMan on Mar 23, 2006 7:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Back in the 80s my brother wanted to go to Cornell to study Mathematics and eventually become a high school teacher. My father said he'd pay what tuition cost at the local state university - a small fraction of what it cost to go to Cornell - because there was no way he was going to spend $20K or so when your goal was to become a teacher making $20K a year (sad but true). If you want to become a social worker, there are state universities in Chicago that cost 8,000 per semester which is 1/4 the cost of U. Chicago (a whopping $32K per year). I hate to look at the career end of things but you really need to look at the cost of your education vs the monetary rewards of it. Private schools may be great places to "find yourself" but you can do that at public schools too as well as through AmeriCorp, Peace Corp, or the military.

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» RE: TnMan Posted by: LeslieGem
shop around for your education
Posted by: vicki2001lynn on Mar 23, 2006 7:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here are some suggestions for current or prospective students and their parents. These are hard choices, but they *are* options. It's not all doom and gloom.

1. Some degrees can be earned more cheaply overseas. Not all degrees overseas are accredited in the USA, but you *can* have your degree recertified when you return home to the US later on. Medical schools in India are as competitive if not more so than here, and India's doctors are some of the best in the world, &have no problems getting hired. Tuition is cheap, especially given the exchange rate US dollars to rupees. The American MBA is also the model for MBA programs all over the world. Look into what (accredited) MBA programs are available overseas at a lower rate of tuition. I know that there are at least 2 MBA programs in Mexico that are accredited in the US, and would be a huge savings to you.

2. There are a *few* tuition-free (undergraduate) colleges around. They should be held up as the standard for alternative educational funding. Instead of griping about student loans and interest fees, why not demand that *all* colleges and universities offer tuition-free education in the style of those colleges and universities that *are already doing so*!! Berea College of Kentucky has always been tuition-free, though you may not be accepted into the school if your family isn't poor enough.

3. Get your undergraduate education at the least expensive public university in your home state. After all, it's the graduate degree that counts, in the job market, so who cares where your undergrad degree comes from? Why are you paying $50K for a BA degree? Get the cheapest one you can find, make the best grades you can, and save your resources for grad school.

4. Take as many CLEP exams as you can. Each test you pass with a (good) score is one less college course you will end up paying through the nose for later. 100 and 200 level classes are taught by grad students, not by PhDs. When you get to the upper-level courses you will have "real" profs teaching your classes, which is more worth the $$$.

5. Pick the major you can complete most quickly, with the fewest required courses, so you can finish sooner and get the heck out of there. The sooner your butt is in grad school, the less of a financial hit you will take in getting that first (and mostly useless) undergrad degree.

6. Go to a 2-year college 1st. Get an associate's degree in Nuclear Medicine Technology or Respiratory Therapy. Many 2-year allied health degrees will reward you with a high-paying medical job. Once you have that under your belt, you can work full time, earning a very comfortable middle class income, and still finish your BA or BS part time (or even full time) on the side, paying cash up front for your tuition and never bothering with a student loan.

7. Get your degree online: www.KYVU.com (Not all online degrees are as expensive as Phoenix University)

For those of you who have already graduated with enormous student loans, I just don't know what to tell you. I am very sorry for you; it's not your fault that the system is designed to exploit you. You have been given a very raw deal. There are some tuition-forgiveness programs around, & AmeriCorps has some opportunities available. Some states with shortages of medical personnel (and teachers) may have tuition-forgiveness programs as well. You should do a search on Google and see what you can find. Other than that, you could try to find the cheapest rental lodging, and share it with as many other people as you can to cut costs and free up more of your income to pay of your loans down more quickly. The more quickly you pay it down, the less of a burden it will be to you later. You will have to live a very austere lifestyle for the first few years, but it *can* be done. Good luck....

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Typical Gen Xer's
Posted by: LeslieGem on Mar 23, 2006 8:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a "Gen Xer." There is a real sense of entitlement in my generation. Like the sense of entitlement expressed in this article. When I graduated with my liberal arts degree, with my student loans, I dreamed of doing something non-profit, etc., because I was "too good" to work for Korporate America. Well, you know what? I couldn't pay the bills, and my parents wouldn't subsidize my lifestyle, so you know what? I got a regular job, which didn't pay much, but I worked hard and moved up, etc. until I did make a decent wage. Until then, I kept my expenses within my means, which meant that I wasn't wearing designer clothes and eating $50 sushi dinners every Friday night, like most of my friends. Guess what? They are still paying off the credit card bills for Sushi and Cosmos they drank 5 years ago, let alone the student loans, car loans, etc., etc., etc. Is that the government's fault?

I'm disappointment with the cuts to student loan funding, etc. as much as the next person. But I have seen, first hand, the completely irresponsible behavior of my fellow Gen Xer's, that I really don't have too much sympathy. If you want to be a social worker, and that requires a master's degree, which you know is going to run you $50,000, and you know you are only going to make $30,000 (which is not even close to a decent wage in most urban areas), then you know you won't be able to afford that loan payment, and on that salary you will probably have to work a second job to pay your bills. So if that's the lifestyle you want, become a social worker. Just like if you want to be a lawyer, you know you are going to work 70 hours weeks. Is that the lifestyle you want? These are the questions you should be asking yourself for any career. So if that lifestyle is worth it for the rewards of being a social worker, go for it. But instead of feeling entitled to "HAVE IT NOW," work for a few years, have a roommate, cook your own food, and SAVE YOUR MONEY so you can get that Master's without the huge debt burden.

All this talk that my parents’ generation (early-Boomers) had it so much easier -- you know what? My parents never have lived beyond their means -- which meant they had one car for the two of them when they first started out, never ate out except for a very special occasion, raised my sister and I in a house that a Gen Xer would consider much too small for four people, etc. etc. Times have changed.

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» RE: Typical Gen Xer's Posted by: Jasonix
» that's my story exactly. Posted by: sln70
» RE: Typical Gen Xer's Posted by: Kelly
The Left's bloodthirsty "hipsters" make me "get angry and start yelling."
Posted by: Torgo on Mar 23, 2006 8:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This recent Alternet piece is more than enough to convince me to refuse to donate to "progressives". I have $60K of veterinary school student loan debt (on the 30 year plan), but I still have plenty of $ to donate to organizations worthy of my aid. I just fail to recognize integrity and virtue in most of what passes for "The Left."

And as for student loans being too onerous for one to consider having many children while working for "social justice, change, etc" at low pay, why would one want to bring suffering children into such an unjust world?

I don't want to turn a discussion about finances and student loans into a rant about the merits of non-procreation, but doesn't it seem self evident that if one is sufficiently appalled by the state of the world then one should seriously consider breaking the cycle of oppression by denying the oppressors future victims?

It seems glaringly obvious to me.

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» No no no Posted by: stormchilde1975
radchick
Posted by: radchick on Mar 23, 2006 8:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article did not mention a primary obstacle to paying off debt -- the accruing of interest, and then the adding of that interest to the principal. Having always made my monthly repayments promptly, I was suddenly unable to pay for several years when I became disabled due to an accident. By the time I was able to pay again, so much interest had been added to the original amount that I would have had $300 a month to live on. So the original amount owed more than doubled. This interest-added-to-original-payment scheme used to be called USERY.

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» RE: radchick Posted by: eringhorm
Two words: Trade School
Posted by: Sunfell on Mar 23, 2006 9:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have watched the incredible inflation of both college prices and degree requirements for jobs that really don't need a 4-year degree to do, and the whole inflation thing horrifies me. The 'good' jobs that college -used- to get for kids are vanishing rapidly. Seriously.

If I had a kid today, I'd send him or her to trade school. I'd tell them to become an electronics tech, plumber, mechanic, or electrician. These jobs still make good money, and when I ran the numbers on my own income, I'm making more than a lot of college graduates- with just a two-year degree and military experience.

Don't dismiss the trades. The jobs that require hands-on skills and the actual presence of a person to do them aren't going to be shipped overseas. (Unless they figure out how to ship your car, house, or plumbing overseas...)

Yes, you'll still have debt, but it won't be as high. And you'll get into the workforce more quickly, and start making better money and paying off those debts in a much shorter time.

I am looking at loan amounts mentioned here that almost resemble mortgages. And that is what they are- educational mortgages. Can't buy a home or have kids if you've already an edu-mortgage to pay off.

Maybe it's time to turn away from the overpriced college treadmill and take back our skills. I realize that my point of view is probably in the minority, but the bottom line is this: what kind of bang are you getting for those college bucks?

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» RE: Two words: Trade School Posted by: Sunfell
College is necessary
Posted by: stormchilde1975 on Mar 23, 2006 9:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For two reasons:

First, high school no longer educates in anything but the most rudimentary subjects. A well-rounded liberal arts education is an American citizen's only hope of developing a broad, well-informed world view (apart perhaps from many years of motivated independent study, something college leaves a person much better equipped to do).

Second, there are classes of people this culture desperately needs in abundance and excellence - scientists, engineers, doctors, public-interest lawyers, public policy-makers, educators, etc. that are only produced by good post-secondary (and post-graduate) educations.

It may be that a college education is not needed for happiness, but we do need lots of college-educated people if our society is to be functional and progressive. And, in my humble opinion, a factory worker with a BA is better equipped to make himself happy than one whose education ended at (or before) high school.

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» RE: College is necessary Posted by: LeslieGem
» Drive not enough Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: Drive not enough Posted by: LeslieGem
» RE: College is necessary Posted by: Sunfell
» RE: College is necessary Posted by: LeslieGem
» RE: College is necessary Posted by: CollD
» RE: College is necessary Posted by: Daniel Shays
» RE: College is necessary Posted by: Asmodeus
» RE: College is necessary Posted by: Daniel Shays
» College is necessary for a JOB Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: College is necessary for a JOB Posted by: anothername
» RE: College is necessary for a JOB Posted by: stormchilde1975
» Thanks, Danny Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: Thanks, Danny Posted by: Daniel Shays
right out of college?
Posted by: CollD on Mar 23, 2006 10:18 AM   
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I have *only* 20,000 debt from student loans. Right out of college i had to move home becuse i could no longer afford to rent an aprtment, much less my groceries. I took out a year in americorps, and at the end they gave me 4750 to pay back some loans. It isn't much, but i am ahead of my payments three years. The sad part is I LOVED my americorps job and would have done it again if i could have paid my health insurance on it. Sadly i could only spend one year making less than 4$ and hour. Think of all the great jobs out there young people could take if they didn't have to worry about out of pocket insurance costs and crippling studnet loan payments. Kids? Owning a house? Those are all pipe dreams for us.

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DON"T YOU JUST LOVE
Posted by: CollD on Mar 23, 2006 10:25 AM   
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The people who post here and say that its your damed fault for getting a college degree. Quit whining, you could have just gone to trade school you spoiled brats! Not like we want to encourage americans to be educated or anything. Just learn how to be a plumber and shut the f up! You will be much happier, i swear! I mean come on, I have a college degree and it help my life out in so many ways, but you don't need that. Qut whining you spoiled brats!

You should all be ashamed of yourselves. Blaming the college kids, oh its your fault the textbooks are pricy? GET REAL. This is a sad collection of 'liberal' thought here.

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» RE: DON"T YOU JUST LOVE Posted by: LeslieGem
» RE: DON"T YOU JUST LOVE Posted by: CollD
» RE: DON"T YOU JUST LOVE Posted by: LeslieGem
» RE: DON"T YOU JUST LOVE Posted by: Utopia
Big choice for a teenager
Posted by: julie_burtis on Mar 23, 2006 11:22 AM   
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I've read this comments section with great interest and there are a lot of thoughtful suggestions on how to save money on education. That said, most 17 year-olds I know aren't great long-term planners. How much experience does a teenager have with rent, utilites, healthcare, and taxes? Yet our college system offers them the opportunity to sign up for huge debt before they have lived outside their parents' homes. I'm all for personal responsibility, but this system is whacked.
I grew up in a lower-middle class family in a rural area, and my parents and I were thrilled when I got into a big-name school. Even with what was considered a good financial aid and scholarship package, I graduated with significant debt. When I was a freshman, the credit card offers filled my mailbox, and yes, I ran up some debt socializing with my well-off classmates (go ahead, blast me for my stupidity and entitlement). I don't regret my education one bit, but I do laugh at my economic naiveness.
The ability to sign up for huge debt before your 19th birthday? Does anyone really believe that its all personal responsibility? Kudos to you who were granted such early economic foresight.

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Two Things
Posted by: jugdish88 on Mar 23, 2006 11:56 AM   
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I think two things are being over looked here. The majority of students aren't at Ivy League schools. Does that mean their debt is any less. No. Because Tuition at all schools including state "owned" schools, has doubled in 16 years. The state bureaus that run the state schools are feeling the pinch due to the fact that federal funds for states have dried up, putting students at state schools who do not have the resources to pay for their education in the predicament of having to take out private loans and work sometimes two jobs which affects their overall success rate in college.

The second is since the majority of students aren't at Ivy League, or even large universities, they face a flooded field of newly graduated students trying to vye for the same positions. That means that most are not getting jobs that give them the luxury of having any control of their funds, or choosing to take on Second degrees to ensure that they will even have a job. This just ads even more debt. And to think that every entrepeneur is going to succeed is just silly. There is simply not enough jobs and too much debt, and no one is doing anything about it.

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» RE: Two Things Posted by: jugdish88
How about some simple perspective?
Posted by: BenjamminH on Mar 23, 2006 12:31 PM   
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The bottom line is the society that we have in the US at this point in time is the result of an educated middle class. After WWII, the govt decided it wanted to help people acheive "the American dream." (not to mention beat those lousy Ruskies) and funded college education and housing for vets. These are the 2 cornerstones of middle class America. Look at what has happened since then in terms of economic producitivty, technology, and so on. Obviously, it's not all milk and honey, but since 1945 the middle class has built this nation.
Fast forward to today. The cost of an education is increasing at an insane rate (Ivy, private, public, it doesn't matter) and what are the feds and the states doing? CUTTING funding to schools and for student aid.
Left unabated, this trend will continue to shrink the middle class. We're already there in a certain sense. The real crime is when pundits and politicians bemoan the state of education in the US, and then cut funding for it. Let's face it folks, manufacturing is dead in this country. Well-paying union factory jobs have gone the way of the Edsel. There's two sectors for economic growth: technology and service. Education (not to mention strong unionism in lower level service jobs) is the key to tapping this potential.
It's not a question of "whiny liberal elites." It's a question of eocnomic apartheid. College eduaction cost increases cannot last if we want to avoid slipping into aristocracy.

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Live as a Yuppie?
Posted by: Utopia on Mar 23, 2006 12:33 PM   
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I got a degree not in law or medicine, but in physics and science. I racked up debt to pay for my schooling, but, I admit, not as much as most people. My parents didn't have the money to set aside for my schooling because they had three children and that consumed their income. With my degree choice I couldn't get a nice, high paying job right out of college. Yet, my degree is not useless. There is no way I can pay off my student loans in two years with my current job and any other job I take will pay about the same as what I make now. Yet, I work in a well respected lab and, for the most part, I enjoy my job.

I'm glad you were able to pay off your loans so quickly, but you are most definately the exception to the rule. I don't live as a yuppie or a hippie or any other contrived label.

If everyone went into jobs that would give them a large salary, those jobs would soon no longer be paying large salaries. If everyone took only high paying jobs, where would we get teachers? Lab Workers? Nurses? Secretaries? Scientists? These are all jobs that require ample amounts of education, yet don't pay fantastically. These are all jobs that are necessary to society as we know it, yet these are the people who struggle with college debt the most.

They say the US is falling behind in science and math, but it shouldn't be a surprise that we are. These jobs pay poorly and those people who have gotten the degrees in these fields, can't afford to work in them because of the debt they have. All degrees take money, not just law and medicine.

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» The man hit the nail on the head Posted by: medstudgeek
Forewarned is Forearmed
Posted by: milesd on Mar 23, 2006 1:32 PM   
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OK, we all have our sob stories (or success stories) from our student loan experiences; and yes, students today have it worse (generally) than we did. The best thing anyone can do for current or prospective students of higher ed is to let them know what to expect financially, both from their school/major choices and their financial ones. Tell them what you're telling us here, and they'll be better equipped to deal with the financial minefield of college and work. If someone had told me 15 years ago what you're telling me now, I could have saved a lot of time and money...
If they make bad decisions anyway, they'll have no one to blame. :-)

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Higher Education is a Necessity, Not An Option
Posted by: NoPCZone on Mar 23, 2006 11:57 PM   
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There was a time in our country when a public education was not universal. The places that opted not to offer free public schools suffered economically at the hands of the places that did.

California became an economic marvel and had it's fastest growth and upward social mobility during the time that it opened it's system to residents for free. Proposition 13 killed that and the downstream effects are still being felt.

A better educated workforce is more productive, earns higher wages will have more disposable income that will in turn grow the economy and will pay more taxes over their lives. The money spent on education is an investment, not a frill. When will people and our society realize that?

In a global economy that is largely unprotected by tariffs, the only way that the masses will be able to earn a high wage is through high-value added manufacturing and services. Translation: A good education.

At a minimum, the community and junior colleges should be tuition free to residents and the states should budget so as to make in-state tuition affordable again. The B.S./B.A. of today has about the same market value as the H.S. Diploma had 30-40 years ago and not much more (with a few exceptions).

The 20-25 year trend of tuitions increasing at 2 & 3x the core inflation rate is something that should have never happened. The amount of debt that people of modest means are being asked to take on is beyond all reason and is getting worse. It is the formula for social stratification and the creation of a permanent underclass.

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Break out!
Posted by: momo on Mar 24, 2006 4:34 AM   
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Guys, life isn't supposed to be this hard! And there is so much lack of perspective sometimes on the website! Throughout history, things have ALWAYS been difficult for people, not just "poor" students with student debts in the last 30 years or so. Do you think our grandparents had it easy because they got to go to college on the GI Bill? Have you forgotten about WWII and the numbness that followed in the 1950s? Stop romanticizing history and wake up. Maybe social problems are spiraling out of control, but if you look at history they always have been. And, believe it or not, things have gotten a lot better for a lot of people in this country in the last 100-200 years. The end of slavery, women's suffarge, civil rights, less people having to worry about AIDs (in the US), gay rights, the sexual revolution. The biggest trap you can put yourself in is by believing you have no choice. So you can't get the best job right away- oh god, somehow life goes on. Be happy! Life is actually amazing if you open yourself up to the mystery of it, instead of always focusing on how hard it is on you.

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» Finally, sense! Posted by: Bobsays
I thought this was a progressive website,
Posted by: dirkster42 on Mar 24, 2006 9:11 AM   
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so I'm a bit astounded at the number of comments along the lines of "stop whining and look on the bright side of life." There's a difference between making personal decisions and making public policy. Yes, we all have to live with the decisions we make, and should do so as gracefully as we can. But at the same time, we elect people to decide how to spend our tax dollars. Better funding of education is possible, it's just not a priority in our corporate welfare world.

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» Politics of spirituality. Posted by: dirkster42
» NW Ohio = Sub-Saharan Economy Posted by: Peahippo
Sage advice
Posted by: stormchilde1975 on Mar 24, 2006 9:43 AM   
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I'm so glad we have a cadre of sages (most of them, ironically, college graduates) lining up to tell us what saps we are for going to school and trying to better ourselves. That's a great message for the future of America, folks: "Don't go to school! Only a sap would do that!"

The citizens of this country are on the whole ignorant, provencial, and underinformed. Most of the contributors here may not fit that bill, but it remains a fact - and a bad one. It's a big part of the reason Bush is President.

We are slipping behind yearly in Math and Science - the core disciplines behind the innovative spirit that has made America's rocket-trip to world domination possible. This neo-luddite anti-education attitude has no place in the progressive agenda, unless progressives are looking forward to a world where America is a second-class manufacturing and service economy, al la Mexico.

So thanks for your patronizing, caustic advice, O sages. But I'm not dropping out of college. In fact, I plan to go on to Law School and devote my life to making sure poor, provencial, naive saps like me have access to a quality, well-rounded education that includes college and post-graduate training. Sorry.

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Where are all these great jobs y'all are talking about?
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob on Mar 24, 2006 11:15 PM   
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Where are they????????

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Here you go
Posted by: medstudgeek on Mar 25, 2006 3:19 AM   
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http: //www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/ 2006-03-21-families-real-estate-usat_x.htm

Edit the spaces out, Alternet doesn't like long words.

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NO
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob on Mar 25, 2006 4:02 AM   
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Back in the '80's, Reagan made an idiotic remark about jobs being in the want ads if you just looked. That was his response to a recession. Some help. This isn't about working at Walmart or Starbucks for a bit until you can get on your feet, this is about jobs in good paying professions that perhaps people are already trained for. Now in my case, I'll probably be ok, but I think most of our professional jobs are at risk these days either from outsourcing or some other issue. I'm tired of people blaming the victim(s). We need to stimulate the economy and with jobs that help society, not kill things.

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Twilight days
Posted by: doctorsquared on Mar 25, 2006 3:27 PM   
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Americans will probably be sorry that they did not make higher education universally available and free to anyone who shows merit when we start having to import all our scientists and engineers from China or India.

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Changes
Posted by: cinattra on Mar 26, 2006 12:51 AM   
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Well, sounds to me like U.S. society will have to adjust to the changes. It is probably about time the idea of rugged determinism and pull yourself up by your own boot straps way of thinking has rode off into the sunset just like the reminiscing of the good old days needs to.

Sounds like nothing a good dose of family helping family can't cure and maybe a little bit of spending discipline.

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J. Granger
Posted by: jgranger on Mar 26, 2006 11:44 AM   
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Let's face it, the stupider the general populace is, the better Bush and his fellow thieves and war criminals look. This subtlety is not missed by the strategists of the Republican Party, who see an educated public as the greates threat to their current hold on power. Thus it is natural for them to make higher education as expensive and unattainable as possible.
We have the legislated right to carry arms to shoot at our fellow citizens but we don't have the right to lift ourselves out of ignorance. Welcome to America.

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The tertiary education myth.....
Posted by: Smiggsy on Mar 26, 2006 9:52 PM   
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What I don't understand is people think that just because you graduate from a university, then society owes you a good wage & career (& then the ability topay back any loans). BTW I am paying off a student debt.

I know people who studied with me at university who graduated but never made a career out of the profession..why? Because when I worked with these students on group assessment projects, they were completely hopeless at everything & utimately useless at the future job at hand. They were the type of people that nobody would ever seriously employ in that profession because they were in no way suited to the job. Then these persons complain when they can't affrod the debt 'cause they cannot attract a great salary. Then they may study again at even greater personal debt and so on....

Just beacuse they let you pay to attend a degree course doesn't mean that you will be an ideal professional in your chosen field.

What needs to happen is after the first year of study, a thorough assessment of students suitability to a chosen profession should be done independent to the institution, identifying whether the candidate would be suitable in years to come. It would also be of help if the advice included future employment opportunity ratios - ie too many lawyers, not enough doctors

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It is much harder nowadays.
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob on Mar 27, 2006 4:04 AM   
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Tuition has risen astronomically but not the amount allowed for federal grants and loans. The number of students working jobs while in college has greatly increased and often they have to graduate later. While there are lots of people who don't understand what it takes to be successful, there's also much harder conditions than in the days when many of these posters got their start. People are so quick to blame. This is supposedly a liberal site? I thought I was at a rightwingnut sight reading alot of the posts here.
And by the way, Bush has made getting loans harder and more expensive to pay off, and if the Repubs had their way, they'd privatize the student loan system entirely and the interest rates would skyrocket. Thanks a lot.

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debt bondage to politically neutralize the college-educated lower middle class
Posted by: wli on Mar 28, 2006 3:50 AM   
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This is a premeditated and well-thought-out attack on a segment of society believed by the right wing to be subversive, namely the college-educated lower middle class (petit bourgeoisie in Marxist terminology). The problem with them is that they were simultaneously aware of various horrendous things while in circumstances that aligned them with the lower classes (proletariat as per Marx). So, for instance, this lower middle class would be aware of current and former death squad activity and other geopolitical developments while simultaneously feeling the stultifying sting of wage slavery and having plenty of leisure time to exercise non-financial political influence.

The object of the right wing program is to change the circumstances so as to eliminate their leisure time via debt bondage, reduce their numbers by changing the structure of society, in effect dumping many of them into the lower class outright, and putting the remainder in a position of considerable mass financial vulnerability to make them fearful to act politically. The H1B's from India, China, etc. are the threat leveraged against this segment of society. Also notable is that low-level salaried positions are tantamount to enormous amounts of unpaid overtime in competitions to survive layoffs. This development is not new but recently (past 30 years, post- Powell memo) has become more extreme. There is clearly a gross imbalance of power in a system where the right wing has the power to restructure society in this fashion.

In any event, I survived largely unscathed, though still with some debt, by means of an interregnum where I did factory work to make money to help deal with the already-accrued and some of the future costs, then resuming my studies, and with some help from the parental units. This proved beneficial because I didn't have to work near as much during my actual studies. It was also vastly more lucrative than the usual work done by college students trying to make money to go to school, in part because I could go about doing it full-time in an interregnum such as I arranged.

FWIW my brief tour of the lower class life during college was terrifying, revealing a lifestyle I'd never thought for a moment could exist outside illegal immigrants or the homeless. I knew a number of homeless college students, some taking time off from studies to save for their next semester, others enrolled in classes, all employed in long hours in menial jobs, and this during the "Clinton boom," 1993-1999. Illegal immigrants were, must have been in even direr circumstances since they were crowded out from even the students' impoverished arrangements.

I had no leisure time worth speaking of for political activism, and those in worse circumstances were even more thoroughly neutralized. This could be seen directly: there were fundies invading the campus en masse for recruitment, technically illegally, and now and again they were arrested or temporarily ejected from campus, but they usually had total impunity, and no police action ever had lasting results. Students universally despised them apart from the few succumbing to their recruitment, but almost none could afford to take the time to do anything at all about them, much less do anything coordinated to get them ejected. Only a few, mostly right-wing Objectivists, took time out to sit around and heckle them. Only one heckler would ever show up when they showed up, and most people could only afford to yell some occasional objection in passing.

Needless to say, left-wing political gatherings withered on the vine if they happened at all. I heard something about NARAL once, and never again afterward. No one I knew had the time to attend any; I certainly didn't. No one knew what was happening in the political sphere, regardless of what their opinions were, though they were usually left-wing (esp. socially). And this, I expect, is the intended effect.

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what about the other half of the equation?
Posted by: scryberwitch on Mar 28, 2006 1:08 PM   
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Namely, that without some sort of secondary education, you *cannot* find a job that will support you, let alone provide for a family.
In many places, including my hometown, those without college degrees are in competition with illegal immigrants for low-wage, no-benefits jobs. So not only are the jobs so poorly paid that you can't survive on them, you can't even get them because the employer will have to pay an American actual minimum wage, whereas they have plenty of Mexicans who will do the job for half price!
So a college degree - or some sort of secondary degree - is a vital necessity for even the most meager job.
And please don't think I'm bashing immigrants. I know they are just doing what they can to survive. I blame the greedy companies who exploit them.

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Why wont someone start yelling, you said?
Posted by: Turnpike Feminist on Apr 12, 2006 2:28 AM   
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Why won't someone start VOTING.

They do this because they don't have to worry about students voting.

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Generation X- in debt and without work
Posted by: moonvalley on Jul 8, 2006 7:23 PM   
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My husband and I hail from minority backgrounds. No family assistance. We were the first to ever go to college.

We were able to go with student loans. When my husband got to grad school his professor didn't help him with publishing or finishing his disertation. My husband turned in revision after revision, with no forward motion. He was advanced to candadicy. The professor asked him to pack up and leave one day. My husband being the man he is, didn't fight, he left quietly. We applied for his masters - the school finished this and just sent it to us last year, 10 years later. The PhD may never be finished even though he is ABD. He works at a very small firm which is the only one that would hire him (he applied everywhere) as it's only Chemist. He started at $10/hr. Ten years later he makes about 35K per year. He works a second job at night so we can try to make ends meet. I worked for a major firm with my BA until a year and a half ago. It took me 9 years to go from $10/hr to 42.5/Yr. I have looked for work for the last year and a half. Nothing but one decent position turned up. I took the position and started. 3.5 months into the position a director began questioning me over time about my ethnicity. One day he brought it up in a meeting. I told him after the meeting that he was out of line and inappropriate, and never to do this again. I was terminated last friday, two and a half weeks after this discussion.

So, how do we pay a student loan that has gone to over 100K in 10 years with no money/position to pay it with? How do minorities get a fair shake? In the last year we've gone without needed required medicine, without food at times, without insurance, and have almost lost our home before I got this recent position which I do not have now. Our home is 680 sq ft. We have no table to eat at, no working heater, and the condition is terrible, but it is all we have.

Can someone tell me how to change this situation. I want to live better and I want to pay my bills. I know there are many more people out there like us.

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