COMMENTS: 50
Will Thirsty States Get Great Lakes Water?
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Now, a quarter-century of fitful but fruitful work to come up with a common, enforceable agreement that would ban the export of Great Lakes water in (among other things) pipelines and railroad cars is just one house of Congress away from final federal consent. The long regional nightmare of Great Lakes drained to green golf courses in Arizona is almost over. Business, government and environmental advocates are singing the praises of the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence River Basin Water Resources Compact.
But a few voices scattered across the region are charging that the compact, as written, will actually facilitate the commercial export of Great Lakes water.
One of the most vocal voices has been Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Mich. He fired off letters to the U.S. trade representative, the Department of State and the International Joint Commission (a U.S.-Canadian body that administers the Boundary Waters Treaty, which covers the Great Lakes), asking them to comment on the potential for sale of Great Lakes water.
"Ratifying the compact could allow Great Lakes water to no longer be held within the public trust and instead be defined as a product for commercial use," says Stupak, whose huge northern Michigan district contains more than 1,500 miles of shoreline on Lakes Superior, Huron and Michigan. "I want to thoroughly understand the lasting impact this compact could have on Great Lakes water for years to come. It took the governors more than three years to get this done, so it is not unreasonable for Congress to take the time necessary to make sure we are not opening the door for the commercialization (of) Great Lakes water."
What's all the fuss about? It depends in part on whether any given reviewer of the compact thinks it opens the sluices of the Great Lakes for commercial capture and sale, or is a pragmatic recognition of the reality of an already thriving bottled water industry that dramatically advances sustainable water policy in a region used to water abundance, and waste.
The differences of opinion between supporters and critics of the compact are stark.
A supporter, Noah Hall, a professor of law at Wayne State University in Detroit, says: "The water protection standards in the compact make several desperately needed reforms in water law, including water conservation, environmental protection, and integration of ground and surface water management. I'm confident that these standards will be enforced because the compact specifically provides for citizen enforcement."
Environmental attorney Jim Olson of Traverse City, Mich., part of a legal team that defeated Nestle Waters North America's Michigan water extraction project at the trial court level (a decision later partially reversed in the appellate courts), responds: "It's the 11th hour for the Great Lakes Compact, but let's be sure it's not the 11th hour for the Great Lakes. Before the U.S. House acts on the compact this fall, Congress needs to take steps to assure the document doesn't expose this magnificent ecosystem to commercial exploitation."
The History Behind the Compact
The origins of the compact reach back to the late 1970s, when two plans to begin the draining of the lakes set off an alarm. A $2.1 billion scheme to construct a coal slurry pipeline from the Powder River Basin in Wyoming and Montana to Duluth, Minn., using Lake Superior water to suspend the coal was the first to cause consternation, but ultimately the project failed on economic grounds.
In 1982, under a mandate from Congress, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers studied the feasibility of diverting the Great Lakes to replenish water supplies in the agricultural region served by the once-vast Ogallala Aquifer, which underlies some of the nation's most productive farmlands. Although the study did not support the economics of the proposal and the corps didn't recommend moving forward, the review spooked Great Lakes citizens and the politicians who represented them. At a time when states like Michigan were experiencing astronomical rates of unemployment in a prolonged recession, the thought that an exodus of water would follow an exodus of job-seekers to the Sunbelt states stirred regional pride.
Not trusting the federal government to manage Great Lakes water wisely, the eight states in 1985 fashioned a nonbinding, good-faith agreement called the Great Lakes Charter that committed them to consulting on major water withdrawal and export proposals and implementing water conservation programs. In 1986, a crafty regional member of Congress inserted a section in the periodic reauthorization of the Water Resources Development Act (WRDA) that required all of the Great Lakes governors to approve a new or increased water diversion from the region before it could begin. With some grumbling, the combination of the gentleperson's agreement among the states and the WRDA clause seemed to hold up well. And then, in 1998, came the Nova Group.
In May of that year, it suddenly became known through media reports that the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources had granted a permit to a private firm by that name to ship up to 50 tanker vessels of Lake Superior water each year to unidentified private customers in Asia. Outraging the public and editorial writers, the proposal was also creative: No one had thought to include "exports" of Great Lakes water in the 1985 charter and 1986 WRDA. Lakes defenders had assumed that aqueducts, not vessels, would be the route of choice for water takers.
Turning Great Lakes water into a product -- especially the water of Lake Superior, the purest of the Lakes -- fueled indignation on both sides of the international border. After public hearings and media scoldings, the Nova Group gave up its permit, and Lake Superior was given a reprieve. But now there was a new hole to plug in the levee defending the Great Lakes. The governors, alone with the premiers of Ontario and Quebec, began seven years of work on a new regional agreement that they hoped would be enforceable and durable.
The work gained new urgency in the first years of the 21st century. When Atlanta ran low on potable water in 2007, compact supporters had a strong new argument about the potential for water raids by Southern and Western states. In the fall of 2007, then-presidential candidate Bill Richardson, governor of New Mexico, told a Las Vegas audience that states like Wisconsin are "awash in water" and ought to be talking with the water-scarce West about a national water policy. The remark won him no votes in Midwestern caucuses or primaries.
Will the Compact Stop Water Exports?
The compact is clear in banning long-distance bulk water engineering or transport projects. Limited exemptions to the ban on out-of-Great Lakes Basin diversions are available to communities in counties that straddle the watershed boundaries.
What gives critics concerns are two interlocking provisions of the compact that they say open the gates to large-volume exports of water in packages like bottles. First, the compact defines "product" to include that which is produced "by mechanical or human effort" and intended for "intermediate or end users." Anything meeting this definition -- including, presumably, water packaged in bottles -- is exempt from the export ban. A second clause holds that water exported in containers under 5.7 gallons (20 liters) or less in volume is not treated as a diversion, although individual states can treat such proposals more stringently if they choose.
The result, charge the critics, is a policy that endorses withdrawal and packaging of enormous volumes of Great Lakes water in these containers. Wenonah Hauter, executive director of Food and Water Watch, says this "establishes a precedent that water can be grabbed by profit-hungry corporations who want to claim it is a product not subject to the compact. This undermines the very purpose of the compact and creates a dangerous precedent for exporting water in the U.S., in this instance from the largest body of freshwater in North America."
In other words, an agreement born in 1998 because of outrage about the sale of Lake Superior water as a product may allow the sale of all Great Lakes Basin water as a product in containers.
While conceding that "the privatization of water is a deeply troubling concern here and around the world," Cameron Davis, the president and CEO of the Chicago-based Alliance for the Great Lakes, a nonprofit organization, dismisses concerns that the compact sets a policy or precedent sanctioning commercialization.
"That's just wrong," Davis says. "All you need to do is grab a bottle of Wisconsin beer, or any other of the fantastic brews we have in the Great Lakes region, to know that water's been put into bottles for more than a century.
"At the end of the day, if you're buying bottled water, well, you're probably paying at least 10 times what it costs to filter water from your own tap that's likely even healthier for you anyway. Some say that's naive. Or, Evian spelled backwards."
Olson and other critics argue that water exported as an ingredient in a product like beer is legally distinct from the sale of water itself. They add that new international trade rules set by the North American Free Trade Agreement and the World Trade Organization since the 1990s make it next to impossible to stop the sale of water in commerce once it has begun.
Grenetta Thomassey, who obtained her doctorate in public policy at the Northern Arizona University and is now policy director for the Tip of the Mitt Watershed Council in Petoskey, Mich., has both an outsider's and insider's perspective on the compact. "The Great Lakes family of states and provinces," she says, has "been too focused on arguments related to how the water is used when the real argument to be made to the rest of the world is that our ecosystem can't survive if the water doesn't stay here. Period. Of course, it was absolutely necessary to provide for economic use of the Great Lakes when the compact was written. ... In order to use these lakes for our economic base and lifestyle, the water has to remain here and the ecosystem has to thrive.
"The compact is rooted in conservation. That focus should be front and center."
In August, Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, wrote the chair of the House Judiciary Committee, Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., expressing concern that the compact "contains major loopholes that could ... result in the privatization of Great Lakes waters for commercial sale." He urged Conyers to include language in the final committee report making it clear that Congress does not interpret the compact to legally transform Great Lakes Basin waters into a product. He also urged passage of his own HR6814, which strengthens the public trust doctrine provisions of the 1986 WRDA provision.
Despite the reservations expressed by Kucinich and Stupak, the House appears poised to consent to the compact as early as September. Proponents argue that delay could fatally undermine the pact as Congressional voting power continues to shift to the arid South and West. The critics, however, remain unconvinced of the need for swift approval.
Says attorney Olson: "The argument that the compact would be at risk because it would take too long to change it through further negotiations isn't applicable, because if Congress imposes conditions, the states are basically bound to such conditions. It's either now or never."
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Posted by: bluesmanjohnson on Aug 26, 2008 4:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to amend the proposed legislation to make it clear that water may be used and exported as a component of a finished product (i.e., the tasty beer referenced in the story), but cannot be exported out of the basin as the product itself.
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Posted by: robchapman on Aug 26, 2008 5:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The volume of water Cayuga holds is enormous, but supports very little human enterprise either for irrigation or for farming.
This is because the lake is in a valley 100 to 150 feet below the surrounding land. Sailing on Cayuga on looks at cliffs topped by tress and forested hills.
I mention this because getting water out of Cayuga would be expensive. This is because it would require enormous capital investment in pumps, pipelines and tanks.
If anyone were to make this investment they would- in a just society- be entitled to a return on their investment. Because the money would be paid back- water is necessity- and because the equipment would be paid back over a long time, there is a moral case for regulation of the industry and the return on investment.
Similarly, the health of the lake itself is of great concern. The idea of draining Cayuga to irrigate golf courses in Arizona or elsewhere is morally unsupportable.
But the idea of withholding water from people who need to drink, bathe, farm or make a living is reprehensible.
The Great Lakes Compact is a laudable effort that accomodates all the ecological, economic and development issues involving water policy.
It should be passed. If there is a need for amendment later, amend it.
But it is time to begin codifying our legal responsibilities to preserve the environment in ways that enhance sustainable economic well-being.
The Great Lakes Compact serves that purpose.
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» RE: Water belongs to everyone??
Posted by: sslyon
» RE: Water belongs to everyone
Posted by: Cathy
» Water does indeed belong to everyone...
Posted by: CanuckKid
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Aug 26, 2008 5:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Currently they control our food, Our energy, Our banks, Our transportation, our military, our laws and our 'Priviledges' as American Citizens...Now they want the one resource NOTHING can survive without!!!
If you think the Corps have had US by the Nose, they are now reaching for our Balls!
I don't care what color they camoflague themselves in - if they agree to this Corp owned and control resource Hiest, there will not only be recalls, but criminal prosectutions to face!
OUR Gov't was Formed to end and combat such Dictatorships.They no longer have 'Crowns & Septure' They have Logo's and Stocks. Stocks in the most basic of human needs and uses.
they control what should NEVER be controlled by mere Brick & Mortar, but owned & controlled by the People who create it and depend on it!
Will speculators get a chance to gambling on this commodity too?
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» RE: As a Michigander this PISSES ME OFF!
Posted by: Cathy
» As a Westen New Yorker
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
» As a Canadian
Posted by: nen
» Golly Gee
Posted by: GollyGee
» You Canadians
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
» Granholm and Co need all the help they can get
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
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Posted by: Phred42 on Aug 26, 2008 7:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's start with conservation and efficiency efforts and take those as far as we can First.
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» Yes, and we need to start here IN the Great Lakes states first
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: Last Chance on Aug 26, 2008 7:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» i did my part...snip, snip...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: How about this?
Posted by: sirios
» So we don't have to do anything else? I doubt that. Our population is huge and will remain so.
Posted by: Beck
» In a couple hundred Years
Posted by: pdxjoe
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Posted by: GollyGee on Aug 26, 2008 7:27 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But I suppose most 'Mercans think the Great Lakes (like all the world's resources) belong entirely to them.
As robchapman points out it's not drinking water were talking about. It's golf courses, lawns, non-native plants, swimming pools in every back yard, man-made recreational lakes and growing corn for cows and for ethanol.
We've been as wasteful with water as everything else. Stop the waste and the Great Lakes can be left alone.
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» Depends if you're a *real* Canadian or a SELL-OUT Corporate Fascist...
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN
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Posted by: exhibit on Aug 26, 2008 7:33 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And we are lamenting that Bushits lied us into the war. With this standard of discourse, no wonder.
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» Golly Gee
Posted by: GollyGee
» Hey
Posted by: chaoslegs
» I disagree
Posted by: chaoslegs
» another 'I'm a PhD, so if we CAN DO IT, we SHOULD DO IT' because its PROFITABLE
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN
» RE: This is uninformed crap and sloganeering
Posted by: Bonita
» Lakes Michigan and Huron are 15 inches below normal NOW and regain only 1 inch per year
Posted by: Beck
» You proved the point - this is uninformed crap and sloganeering
Posted by: exhibit
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Aug 26, 2008 7:46 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: FoonTheElder on Aug 26, 2008 7:51 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Governments and other groups need to work on sustainable solutions now. If we wait around, we will end up with groups of private corporations that will drain every bit of water that they find to sell to the highest bidder.
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» we HAD ONE & nobody reported on it.
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN
» This is the first I've heard of anti-SPP action in the States
Posted by: Bonita
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 26, 2008 8:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just how well will the folks like getting water that's more chemical that water? Now we have cryptosporidium resistant to chlorine
treatments,and this bug is very dangerous. Do we share them too? The other Lakes we only have half control of,so what will our neighbors to the North think when our Congress passes laws governing water sharing? Will they even be included in the debate or will we say 'Screw Canada,they're our little sister'.
Water is the single most important resource on the planet,next to breathable air. Both of which need cleaning. So far we're not doing so hot on either front. So long before any debates should begin about 'Water Shares' we had better get busy making them safe to use.
We now have 46% of the water we can't even treat good enough to be used as dishwater. Who
do we share that water with?
If you think wars for oil are henious,just wait until the water wars start,right here in the good ol' USA. Think it won't? Read our western history. Quite a few folks were killed back of water access.
Before we even begin to think about how to share water we better clean it up first. Get the man-made chemicals out of the air and by that action out of the water. Stop using the Lakes as a dump zone,that only makes good sense. End all coal burning,it's the single source of mecury contamination to the waters. and the air. Stop papermill discharges into water systems, those chemicals will be toxic to the great-grandchildren you'll never know. I
don't know about you but I don't want to be known as the grandpa that did nothing when I really could have.
Sharing isn't the problem,we do that everytime we take a breath,we share air with all the beings and animals that use it. Water is no diffrent. But let's give real consideration to cleaning the water we intend to share because if the water isn't healthy to drink,there won't be anyone around to clean up
the future messes.
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Posted by: Jeffski on Aug 26, 2008 8:20 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Golly Gee
Posted by: GollyGee
» RE: More science, more bombast
Posted by: Beck
» RE: More science, less bombast -- and more common sense
Posted by: JazzPainter
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Posted by: BlueBerry PickN on Aug 26, 2008 8:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
New Coca-Cola Water Deal Omits India...
wow: the US has been dumping directly into the Great Lakes for decades. (Admittedly, Canada dumps, but we're 1/10th the population - which is no consolation, but it is less impact. At least we penalize the dumping, rather than legalizing it.)
But when things start getting crispy down there, suddenly there is a unilateral demand to commodify the *shared* waters.
Unfortunately, they are NOT as renewable as you'd like to believe.
but that won't stop the US from commodifying it or strong-arming that "Security & Prosperity Partnership"... mainly because our current Harper 'Administration' (they're as 'Canadian' as gila monsters) is falling all over itself to cash in on environmental destruction.
YeeHA! if there's profit in selling out Canadian environmental ecosystems, they're all for it.
What confuses Canadians who care about environmental issues & sustainable resource stewardship? ...why should we destroy Canadian regions so that more US lawns can get all green & lush outside their natural habitat?
...so Coke/'Dasani' can suck us dry like they've done in Guatemala, Columbia & India??
Don't kid yourselves... do your homework on the 'Security & Prosperity Partnership'... it has NOTHING to do with supporting the Peoples of the Americas... NOTHING...
its about removing THE PEOPLES from SUSTAINABLE RESOURCE management & representative government.
Now this is the INTERESTING PART of the SPP: the agreements will provide that **should the exporting nation require fewer exports due to shortages, environmental impacts or citizen hardships?** ??
...the agreement will **legally demand that the exports never diminish because it would impact the commodifying corporations' profits**
THINK ABOUT THAT.
corporations will be legally entitled to set the demand for export levels for any commodity they trade.
...no matter what happens to the exporting nation.
┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄
BlueBerry Pick'n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
┄┄
" ... tolerance of intolerance is cowardice... " ~ Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
"We, two, form a Multitude" ~ Ovid.
┄┄
"Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced"
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Posted by: Archie1954 on Aug 26, 2008 8:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mnstra on Aug 26, 2008 11:40 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ba
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
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Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Aug 26, 2008 2:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Midwesterners need that water for themselves; but as we know, the Feds tended to align with the aforementioned regions because their states wield more influence than Minnesota or Indiana. Somehow the government thinks Arizona and Georgia deserves that precious liquid than Wisconsin or Ohio. Already the Colorado is at its lowest level.
Unchecked growth (or urban sprawl) in the West is fueled by easy access to water (and petroleum); and some states eye the Great Lakes as an equivalent to a land grab.
This is a very important issue to the future of the United States. How we use water will determine which states will wield more power than others. He who has water makes the rules.
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Posted by: IAlady on Aug 26, 2008 2:58 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Aug 26, 2008 10:19 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fight is still on and will not change soon. The era of cheap food in the United States is coming to a halt. There are various explanations.
In 1890 ninety percent of the US population either lived on the farm or lived in a farm community where the income came from the local farms. We now have 3/4ths of one percent on the farm. Big business is now converting farming into a mirror image of itself. Big business, despite a barrage of their own propaganda, is radically inefficient and merely passes their inefficiencies on to their customers. It comes in the form of lower productivity, higher prices, and the accidental waste of carelessness. Hired managers are never a match for the involvement of the small private entrepreneur. You can't hire a man to ever care as much as you will.
Big business cannot feed the U.S. without irrigation water. The old family farmer could grow crops in rocks and farmed dry land. He is gone. The massive surpluses are gone.
I am merely stating the problem. I am 69. This may well never bother me. Those of you that are younger ought to start thinking. I have suggestions. The big boys won't like them.
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Posted by: -matti on Aug 27, 2008 12:50 AM
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The medium-term concern here is the draining of fossil water from aquifers in the Industrial-Monoculture "breadbasket" west of the Mississippi.
The level of pumping is already past sustainable there and Climate Change possibilities seem to forecast a hotter, dryer climate for this region that will make the situation even worse.
With this, the argument for draining the Great Lakes would be moved from "idiots who live in a desert and want a lot of water vs. reasonable people" to "folks who want to grow food vs. jerks who want to hog everything".
A compelling argument for a disastrous step backward in human progress.
This is why it is important that this Compact be passed during this Session. To provide an equally weighty argument against such foolishness as soon as possible, before there's a conflict.
I agree that these loopholes should be corrected. As someone here suggested perhaps the Compact could be modified to allow only "altered" products such as beer and exclude pure water. As someone else suggested, perhaps the Compact could be ammended to provide such exclusions as the problem actually arised.
But these loopholes should by no means be a deal-breaker.
We should hope and work to get this passed, with or without new language closing these loopholes. Either way we should remain Vigilant. If the oil problem doesn't wake people up to the structural flaws in our current living system, the water problem HAS to. Otherwise things might get really nasty.
Have Fun,
-matti.
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Posted by: JazzPainter on Aug 27, 2008 5:32 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the west water is not measured in gallons, but in acre feet.
Between "Phoenix golf courses" and the Great Lakes is a geographical feature called the "Continental divide" and the divide generally involves going some 8000 feet -- more than a mile and a half -- above the Great lakes, all of which are located which are located lower than Lake Superior, which stands at 602 feet.
Pumping an acre foot of water a mile and a half in the air, and transporting it almost 2000 miles would take, I once calculated, the entire power output of the Tennessee Valley Authority string of dams from Knoxville to Chattanooga.
Feel free to ignore the connection between moving all that water and our already strained energy resources and tell me how much securing the easements is going to cost.
Las Vegas is building a 30 mile piple line north to an aquafer (from which Las Vegas is a downhill flow for the water) at a cost of almost 1 billion dollars, and the easements in that case involve rights on largely unused desert land.
But also consider that golf courses in Phoenix are well watered today because it has the water.
Yes, Phoenix is an arid state -- but it is also very large. The watershed that drains into the Salt River Project -- a large source of water for Phoenix -- is roughly the same size as the state of Wisconsin and Maryland combined, with a little room to fit most of Rhode Island in.
Even at 2-12 inches a year that is a lot of water. Phoenix doesn't need Great Lakes Water, thank you.
Albuquerque might -- but unlike phoenix at 1000 feet, Albuquerque is at 5000 feet, with much higher mountains to cross to get the water there. Bill Richardson was talking through his ass, and quickly repudiated his own suggestion to ship Great Lakes water west.
Meanwhile the Great Lakes compact, fighting the paper dragon of having Great Lakes water exported does nothing to actually improve conservation and pollution problems on the lakes.
If the 8 states of the compact really gave a damn they would be mandating low flow toilets and xeriscaping with natural native plants instead of planting lawns, they would be restricting water use by the car washes and their own golf courses, they would be creating grey water systems to water highway medians and taking on water intensive industries to reclaim and reuse their water as well as insure their discharge is as clean as their intake.
But this compact is nothing but a 'feel good' measure that is the spawn of political fear mongering. Environmental groups can raise money and increase membership with a 'hot button' but utterly improbable scenerio. but don't have the will to take on the less glamorous hard work of changing people's water use patterns.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Aug 27, 2008 10:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: hurricane hugo on Aug 28, 2008 11:00 AM
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This is the one issue that unites liberals and conservatives here in Michigan. I'd assume it's the same in our fellow Great Lakes states and provinces.
jdfu!
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Posted by: senatorbill on Aug 28, 2008 12:06 PM
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Posted by: bluesmanjohnson on Aug 26, 2008 4:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to amend the proposed legislation to make it clear that water may be used and exported as a component of a finished product (i.e., the tasty beer referenced in the story), but cannot be exported out of the basin as the product itself.
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Posted by: robchapman on Aug 26, 2008 5:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The volume of water Cayuga holds is enormous, but supports very little human enterprise either for irrigation or for farming.
This is because the lake is in a valley 100 to 150 feet below the surrounding land. Sailing on Cayuga on looks at cliffs topped by tress and forested hills.
I mention this because getting water out of Cayuga would be expensive. This is because it would require enormous capital investment in pumps, pipelines and tanks.
If anyone were to make this investment they would- in a just society- be entitled to a return on their investment. Because the money would be paid back- water is necessity- and because the equipment would be paid back over a long time, there is a moral case for regulation of the industry and the return on investment.
Similarly, the health of the lake itself is of great concern. The idea of draining Cayuga to irrigate golf courses in Arizona or elsewhere is morally unsupportable.
But the idea of withholding water from people who need to drink, bathe, farm or make a living is reprehensible.
The Great Lakes Compact is a laudable effort that accomodates all the ecological, economic and development issues involving water policy.
It should be passed. If there is a need for amendment later, amend it.
But it is time to begin codifying our legal responsibilities to preserve the environment in ways that enhance sustainable economic well-being.
The Great Lakes Compact serves that purpose.
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» RE: Water belongs to everyone??
Posted by: sslyon
» RE: Water belongs to everyone
Posted by: Cathy
» Water does indeed belong to everyone...
Posted by: CanuckKid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Purple Girl on Aug 26, 2008 5:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Currently they control our food, Our energy, Our banks, Our transportation, our military, our laws and our 'Priviledges' as American Citizens...Now they want the one resource NOTHING can survive without!!!
If you think the Corps have had US by the Nose, they are now reaching for our Balls!
I don't care what color they camoflague themselves in - if they agree to this Corp owned and control resource Hiest, there will not only be recalls, but criminal prosectutions to face!
OUR Gov't was Formed to end and combat such Dictatorships.They no longer have 'Crowns & Septure' They have Logo's and Stocks. Stocks in the most basic of human needs and uses.
they control what should NEVER be controlled by mere Brick & Mortar, but owned & controlled by the People who create it and depend on it!
Will speculators get a chance to gambling on this commodity too?
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» RE: As a Michigander this PISSES ME OFF!
Posted by: Cathy
» As a Westen New Yorker
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
» As a Canadian
Posted by: nen
» Golly Gee
Posted by: GollyGee
» You Canadians
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
» Granholm and Co need all the help they can get
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
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Posted by: Phred42 on Aug 26, 2008 7:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's start with conservation and efficiency efforts and take those as far as we can First.
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» Yes, and we need to start here IN the Great Lakes states first
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: Last Chance on Aug 26, 2008 7:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» i did my part...snip, snip...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: How about this?
Posted by: sirios
» So we don't have to do anything else? I doubt that. Our population is huge and will remain so.
Posted by: Beck
» In a couple hundred Years
Posted by: pdxjoe
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Posted by: GollyGee on Aug 26, 2008 7:27 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But I suppose most 'Mercans think the Great Lakes (like all the world's resources) belong entirely to them.
As robchapman points out it's not drinking water were talking about. It's golf courses, lawns, non-native plants, swimming pools in every back yard, man-made recreational lakes and growing corn for cows and for ethanol.
We've been as wasteful with water as everything else. Stop the waste and the Great Lakes can be left alone.
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» Depends if you're a *real* Canadian or a SELL-OUT Corporate Fascist...
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN
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Posted by: exhibit on Aug 26, 2008 7:33 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And we are lamenting that Bushits lied us into the war. With this standard of discourse, no wonder.
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» Golly Gee
Posted by: GollyGee
» Hey
Posted by: chaoslegs
» I disagree
Posted by: chaoslegs
» another 'I'm a PhD, so if we CAN DO IT, we SHOULD DO IT' because its PROFITABLE
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN
» RE: This is uninformed crap and sloganeering
Posted by: Bonita
» Lakes Michigan and Huron are 15 inches below normal NOW and regain only 1 inch per year
Posted by: Beck
» You proved the point - this is uninformed crap and sloganeering
Posted by: exhibit
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Aug 26, 2008 7:46 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: FoonTheElder on Aug 26, 2008 7:51 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Governments and other groups need to work on sustainable solutions now. If we wait around, we will end up with groups of private corporations that will drain every bit of water that they find to sell to the highest bidder.
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» we HAD ONE & nobody reported on it.
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN
» This is the first I've heard of anti-SPP action in the States
Posted by: Bonita
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 26, 2008 8:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just how well will the folks like getting water that's more chemical that water? Now we have cryptosporidium resistant to chlorine
treatments,and this bug is very dangerous. Do we share them too? The other Lakes we only have half control of,so what will our neighbors to the North think when our Congress passes laws governing water sharing? Will they even be included in the debate or will we say 'Screw Canada,they're our little sister'.
Water is the single most important resource on the planet,next to breathable air. Both of which need cleaning. So far we're not doing so hot on either front. So long before any debates should begin about 'Water Shares' we had better get busy making them safe to use.
We now have 46% of the water we can't even treat good enough to be used as dishwater. Who
do we share that water with?
If you think wars for oil are henious,just wait until the water wars start,right here in the good ol' USA. Think it won't? Read our western history. Quite a few folks were killed back of water access.
Before we even begin to think about how to share water we better clean it up first. Get the man-made chemicals out of the air and by that action out of the water. Stop using the Lakes as a dump zone,that only makes good sense. End all coal burning,it's the single source of mecury contamination to the waters. and the air. Stop papermill discharges into water systems, those chemicals will be toxic to the great-grandchildren you'll never know. I
don't know about you but I don't want to be known as the grandpa that did nothing when I really could have.
Sharing isn't the problem,we do that everytime we take a breath,we share air with all the beings and animals that use it. Water is no diffrent. But let's give real consideration to cleaning the water we intend to share because if the water isn't healthy to drink,there won't be anyone around to clean up
the future messes.
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Posted by: Jeffski on Aug 26, 2008 8:20 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Golly Gee
Posted by: GollyGee
» RE: More science, more bombast
Posted by: Beck
» RE: More science, less bombast -- and more common sense
Posted by: JazzPainter
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN on Aug 26, 2008 8:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
New Coca-Cola Water Deal Omits India...
wow: the US has been dumping directly into the Great Lakes for decades. (Admittedly, Canada dumps, but we're 1/10th the population - which is no consolation, but it is less impact. At least we penalize the dumping, rather than legalizing it.)
But when things start getting crispy down there, suddenly there is a unilateral demand to commodify the *shared* waters.
Unfortunately, they are NOT as renewable as you'd like to believe.
but that won't stop the US from commodifying it or strong-arming that "Security & Prosperity Partnership"... mainly because our current Harper 'Administration' (they're as 'Canadian' as gila monsters) is falling all over itself to cash in on environmental destruction.
YeeHA! if there's profit in selling out Canadian environmental ecosystems, they're all for it.
What confuses Canadians who care about environmental issues & sustainable resource stewardship? ...why should we destroy Canadian regions so that more US lawns can get all green & lush outside their natural habitat?
...so Coke/'Dasani' can suck us dry like they've done in Guatemala, Columbia & India??
Don't kid yourselves... do your homework on the 'Security & Prosperity Partnership'... it has NOTHING to do with supporting the Peoples of the Americas... NOTHING...
its about removing THE PEOPLES from SUSTAINABLE RESOURCE management & representative government.
Now this is the INTERESTING PART of the SPP: the agreements will provide that **should the exporting nation require fewer exports due to shortages, environmental impacts or citizen hardships?** ??
...the agreement will **legally demand that the exports never diminish because it would impact the commodifying corporations' profits**
THINK ABOUT THAT.
corporations will be legally entitled to set the demand for export levels for any commodity they trade.
...no matter what happens to the exporting nation.
┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄
BlueBerry Pick'n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
┄┄
" ... tolerance of intolerance is cowardice... " ~ Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
"We, two, form a Multitude" ~ Ovid.
┄┄
"Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced"
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Posted by: Archie1954 on Aug 26, 2008 8:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mnstra on Aug 26, 2008 11:40 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ba
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
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Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Aug 26, 2008 2:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Midwesterners need that water for themselves; but as we know, the Feds tended to align with the aforementioned regions because their states wield more influence than Minnesota or Indiana. Somehow the government thinks Arizona and Georgia deserves that precious liquid than Wisconsin or Ohio. Already the Colorado is at its lowest level.
Unchecked growth (or urban sprawl) in the West is fueled by easy access to water (and petroleum); and some states eye the Great Lakes as an equivalent to a land grab.
This is a very important issue to the future of the United States. How we use water will determine which states will wield more power than others. He who has water makes the rules.
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Posted by: IAlady on Aug 26, 2008 2:58 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Aug 26, 2008 10:19 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fight is still on and will not change soon. The era of cheap food in the United States is coming to a halt. There are various explanations.
In 1890 ninety percent of the US population either lived on the farm or lived in a farm community where the income came from the local farms. We now have 3/4ths of one percent on the farm. Big business is now converting farming into a mirror image of itself. Big business, despite a barrage of their own propaganda, is radically inefficient and merely passes their inefficiencies on to their customers. It comes in the form of lower productivity, higher prices, and the accidental waste of carelessness. Hired managers are never a match for the involvement of the small private entrepreneur. You can't hire a man to ever care as much as you will.
Big business cannot feed the U.S. without irrigation water. The old family farmer could grow crops in rocks and farmed dry land. He is gone. The massive surpluses are gone.
I am merely stating the problem. I am 69. This may well never bother me. Those of you that are younger ought to start thinking. I have suggestions. The big boys won't like them.
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Posted by: -matti on Aug 27, 2008 12:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The medium-term concern here is the draining of fossil water from aquifers in the Industrial-Monoculture "breadbasket" west of the Mississippi.
The level of pumping is already past sustainable there and Climate Change possibilities seem to forecast a hotter, dryer climate for this region that will make the situation even worse.
With this, the argument for draining the Great Lakes would be moved from "idiots who live in a desert and want a lot of water vs. reasonable people" to "folks who want to grow food vs. jerks who want to hog everything".
A compelling argument for a disastrous step backward in human progress.
This is why it is important that this Compact be passed during this Session. To provide an equally weighty argument against such foolishness as soon as possible, before there's a conflict.
I agree that these loopholes should be corrected. As someone here suggested perhaps the Compact could be modified to allow only "altered" products such as beer and exclude pure water. As someone else suggested, perhaps the Compact could be ammended to provide such exclusions as the problem actually arised.
But these loopholes should by no means be a deal-breaker.
We should hope and work to get this passed, with or without new language closing these loopholes. Either way we should remain Vigilant. If the oil problem doesn't wake people up to the structural flaws in our current living system, the water problem HAS to. Otherwise things might get really nasty.
Have Fun,
-matti.
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Posted by: JazzPainter on Aug 27, 2008 5:32 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the west water is not measured in gallons, but in acre feet.
Between "Phoenix golf courses" and the Great Lakes is a geographical feature called the "Continental divide" and the divide generally involves going some 8000 feet -- more than a mile and a half -- above the Great lakes, all of which are located which are located lower than Lake Superior, which stands at 602 feet.
Pumping an acre foot of water a mile and a half in the air, and transporting it almost 2000 miles would take, I once calculated, the entire power output of the Tennessee Valley Authority string of dams from Knoxville to Chattanooga.
Feel free to ignore the connection between moving all that water and our already strained energy resources and tell me how much securing the easements is going to cost.
Las Vegas is building a 30 mile piple line north to an aquafer (from which Las Vegas is a downhill flow for the water) at a cost of almost 1 billion dollars, and the easements in that case involve rights on largely unused desert land.
But also consider that golf courses in Phoenix are well watered today because it has the water.
Yes, Phoenix is an arid state -- but it is also very large. The watershed that drains into the Salt River Project -- a large source of water for Phoenix -- is roughly the same size as the state of Wisconsin and Maryland combined, with a little room to fit most of Rhode Island in.
Even at 2-12 inches a year that is a lot of water. Phoenix doesn't need Great Lakes Water, thank you.
Albuquerque might -- but unlike phoenix at 1000 feet, Albuquerque is at 5000 feet, with much higher mountains to cross to get the water there. Bill Richardson was talking through his ass, and quickly repudiated his own suggestion to ship Great Lakes water west.
Meanwhile the Great Lakes compact, fighting the paper dragon of having Great Lakes water exported does nothing to actually improve conservation and pollution problems on the lakes.
If the 8 states of the compact really gave a damn they would be mandating low flow toilets and xeriscaping with natural native plants instead of planting lawns, they would be restricting water use by the car washes and their own golf courses, they would be creating grey water systems to water highway medians and taking on water intensive industries to reclaim and reuse their water as well as insure their discharge is as clean as their intake.
But this compact is nothing but a 'feel good' measure that is the spawn of political fear mongering. Environmental groups can raise money and increase membership with a 'hot button' but utterly improbable scenerio. but don't have the will to take on the less glamorous hard work of changing people's water use patterns.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Aug 27, 2008 10:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: hurricane hugo on Aug 28, 2008 11:00 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is the one issue that unites liberals and conservatives here in Michigan. I'd assume it's the same in our fellow Great Lakes states and provinces.
jdfu!
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Posted by: senatorbill on Aug 28, 2008 12:06 PM
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Water Heist: Corporations Are Targeting Cash-Strapped Cities for Control of Their Public Water
Is Schwarzenegger's Big Drought Over?
Is New York's Budget Deficit Leading it to Adopt Natural Gas Drilling Practices That Threaten Drinking Water?




