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War on Iraq

The Supreme Court's Distressing Ruling on Gun Rights

By Sanford Levinson, Huffington Post. Posted June 27, 2008.


The Court's decision played into the unhelpful stereotypes of "gun rights" and "gun control."
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One can interpret today's decision in the DC vs. Heller case from both "external" political perspectives or from a more "internal" legal one. I begin with the former: My own hope, which was spectacularly unrealized, was that the Supreme Court would unanimously accept the very well-written and -argued brief by the Solicitor General, in behalf of the Bush Administration, which argued both that the Second Amendment indeed protected an individual right to "keep and bear arms" and disagreed with the particularly rigorous test that the Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia had applied to the D.C. ordinance. Thus, according to the Solicitor General, the Court should remand the case back to the court below for reconsideration under a proper, somewhat looser, standard that would still have easily supported invalidating the ordinance.

Unanimous acceptance of his sensible view might have helped to diminish at least some of the culture war that has been waged now for at least four decades between advocates of "gun rights" and "gun control," who have their own interests in demonizing their opponents. Instead, the Court fractured along an all-too-predictable 5-4 axis, with the five conservatives supporting the rights of gun owners and the four liberals (or, more accurately, "moderates") seemingly supporting the most extreme version of gun "control," which is outright prohibition. The Solicitor General also offered a way for the Court to make sure that gun control would not become a key issue in this year's presidential race. Now there is no avoiding it, though, as a partisan Democrat, I confess to being relieved that the dissenters did not prevail, for the upholding of the D.C. ordinance would, in effect, have served as a massive in-kind campaign contribution to John McCain.

Then there are the "internal" features of the opinions, more interesting, no doubt, to lawyers (and law professors) than to pundits, but not without their broader interest. One of the most remarkable features of Justice Scalia's majority opinion and Justice Stevens's dissent (joined by Justices Ginsburg, Breyer, and Souter) is the view that the Second Amendment means only what it meant at the time of its proposal and ratification in 1789-91. Thus they spend a total of 110 pages debating arcane aspects of the purported original meaning of the Amendment.

If one had any reason to believe that either Scalia or Stevens were a competent historian, then perhaps it would be worth reading the pages they write. But they are not. Both opinions are what is sometimes called "law-office history," in which each side engages in shamelessly (and shamefully) selective readings of the historical record in order to support what one strongly suspects are pre-determined positions. And both Scalia and Stevens treat each other -- and, presumably, their colleagues who signed each of the opinions -- with basic contempt, unable to accept the proposition, second nature to professional historians, that the historical record is complicated and, indeed, often contradictory. Justice Stevens, for example, writes that anyone who reads the text of the Second Amendment and its history, plus a murky 1939 decision of the Court, will find "a clear answer" to the question of whether the Second Amendment supports a "right to possess and use guns for nonmilitary purposes." This is simply foolish. Neither Scalia nor Stevens pays any real attention to a plethora of first-rate historical work written over the past decade that challenges this kind of foolish self-confidence.

What is especially ironic is that the strongest support for Scalia's position comes from acknowledging that the Second Amendment, like the rest of the Bill of Rights, has been "dynamically" interpreted and has taken on some quite different meanings from those it originally had. Whatever might have been the case in 1787 with regard the linkage of guns to service in militias -- and the historical record is far more mixed on this point than either Scalia or Stevens is willing to acknowledge -- there can be almost no doubt that by the mid-19th century, an individual right to bear arms was widely accepted as a basic attribute of American citizenship. One of the reasons that the Court in Dred Scott denied that blacks could be citizens was precisely that Chief Justice Taney recognized that citizens could carry guns, and it was basically unthinkable that blacks could do so. Thus, in effect, they could not be citizens. Charles Sumner, who, unlike Taney is quoted by Scalia, strongly endorsed the rights of anti-slavery settlers in Kansas to have guns to protect themselves against their pro-slavery opponents.

If one reads only Scalia and Stevens, one would believe that there is no dynamism to the Constitution, which is both stupid as a theory of interpretation and, more to the point, completely misleading as a way of understanding the American constitutional tradition.

All in all, a dismaying performance by the Supreme Court, whatever one thinks of the actual result.

Digg!

See more stories tagged with: second amendment, dc vs. heller, gun rights

Sanford Levinson is a professor of law at the University of Texas. The author of several articles on the Second Amendment, he is the author, most recently, of "Our Undemocratic Constitution: Where the Constitution Goes Wrong (and How We the People Can Correct It)."

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DC Gun Control
Posted by: jtalle on Jun 27, 2008 2:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They made handguns illegal in DC. Yet, the homicide rate in DC is much higher than most of the rest of the country.

So why doesn't gun control legislation work?

And better yet, after examining the nature of the problem, how could someone believe that it might actually work?

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» RE: DC Gun Control Posted by: Sushi
(Exaggeration) Distressing limitation on self defense empowerment.
Posted by: aouie01 on Jun 27, 2008 2:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is it okay to have a hand gun to protect your home and those at home when at home, but not to protect self or property or others when you are traveling about?
Oh well, it could have been a worse ruling.
Sincerely,
Aouie

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The great divide
Posted by: carbon-based on Jun 27, 2008 3:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In DC about 70% to 80% of homicides are gun related. Chicago is even higher. I’m all for gun control that works and against what doesnt because it puts honest people in danger.

Obviously keeping guns out of the hands of honest people doesn’t work - they missed the criminals.

We do have a pretty evenly divided court.. better than a conservative or liberal court and I think they got this right!

I still dont understand the death penalty decision as it relates to a child rapist! I'm with Obama on this one!

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» RE: The great divide Posted by: john mont
» RE: The great divide Posted by: Sushi
» RE: The great divide Posted by: vivachavez
It's about gun CONTROL, not ownership
Posted by: HughScott on Jun 27, 2008 5:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a progressive, anti-Republican Bush-hater who doesn't understand why the Supreme Court didn't vote 9 to 0 for removing D.C.'s ban on handguns.

The most dangerous weapons we Americans possess are guns and automobiles. All 50 states regulate car ownership, driver's iicenses, insurance, etc. The same standard should apply to guns.

Like vehicles, the right to own guns as private property should never be in doubt. Why is that concept so hard to accept?

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"If you ban guns only the criminals will have them..."
Posted by: MrTangent on Jun 27, 2008 5:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not reasonable to assume we can get rid of every gun on the face of the planet. Until we do so I will be for gun ownership rights (despite my being ultra-liberal on almost every other issue**). The reason is in the subject header. I want to be able to defend myself against the better armed criminal (if guns were banned, that is). I'm not advocating citizen vigilantism, but I can't help but wonder what the effect would have been in past mass shootings from crazed individuals if honest, gun-toting citizens had been there to return fire? Some would argue that concealed weapons might have made the death toll higher (by accidental shooting/cross-fire and so forth) but I think differently. I think that the outcomes might have been radically different and less people would have needlessly died.

In any event, I feel safer at night knowing I have access to a firearm so that if any criminal decides I will be his/her next victim I can (and will) defend myself, my family and my possessions. Further, I like knowing that our founding fathers gave us the means to suppress an oppressive government, which is essentially why they allowed well-armed militias in the first place. They knew that an oppressive government (like the English from which we revolted) might happen again (Bush, anyone?).

** The only major issue I side with the "Right" on other than guns is the death penalty. Meaning I am for the death penalty in extreme cases.

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Are you kidding?
Posted by: Axiom69 on Jun 27, 2008 5:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"I confess to being relieved that the dissenters did not prevail, for the upholding of the D.C. ordinance would, in effect, have served as a massive in-kind campaign contribution to John McCain."

The court upholds one of our most basic constitutional rights and the only reason you are glad is because if they ruled the other way it would have helped John Mccain?

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The Well-Regulated Militia
Posted by: xvictor on Jun 27, 2008 5:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A highly unprecedented decision. Just about every previous U.S. court decision in history said the opposite.

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» ERR...Check your Facts Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: The Well-Regulated Militia Posted by: john mont
» RE: The Well-Regulated Militia Posted by: john mont
For better or worse, "sensible" doesn't matter.
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jun 27, 2008 5:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Separate but equal? Sensible to lots of people.

Suspension of Habeus Corpus? Boy doe expediency make sense if you can ignore the rise of rule of law in Western Civilization.

Warrantless wiretaps? Yup, somebody somewhere thinks that makes perfect sense.

Having public utility workers peeking in on you under the now-defunct TIPS portion of the so-called Patriot Act? Perfect sense...to some.

Historically, banning the consumption of alcohol was sensible to lots of people.

Repealing the ban on alcohol? An imminently sensible--if a tad slurred--position for many.

No. Sensible, common-sense, horse-sense, and one's sixth-sense feelings really don't hold a lot of water when you're dealing with a violation of the Constitution.

Whether or not the illegal blanket ban on handguns was a stellar idea or not isn't the issue. At issue is whether the feelings of men and women should be allowed to supersede the rule of law.

I don't like it when Bush does it, why should I wink and nod when D.C.-land bureaucrats engage in the same abuses of power?

Unanimous acceptance of his sensible view might have helped to diminish at least some of the culture war that has been waged now for at least four decades between advocates of "gun rights" and "gun control," who have their own interests in demonizing their opponents.

There are ways to change the Constitution so that it makes more sense to you. You just have to begin collecting signatures.

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Open Season on DC Dirtbags
Posted by: European American on Jun 27, 2008 5:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am personally thrilled that honest Americans in our nations capital are now legal able to protect themselves from the things that go bump in the night. I am now anticipating reading about some Section 8 scumbag being ripped apart by hollow points from their intended victim in the “Armed Citizen” section of the NRA’s “America’s First Freedom” magazine.

Hopefully this precedent stating that the second amendment was intended for private citizens to own firearms in order to protect themselves will snow ball.

Next stop Chicago then California.

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» RE: Open Season on DC Dirtbags Posted by: Knot_Rich
Think the court got it wrong? Ask the Founding Fathers.
Posted by: Axiom69 on Jun 27, 2008 6:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
Thomas Jefferson

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people;
that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824


"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776

"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
Thomas Jefferson (attributed without source)

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.... And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Thomas Jefferson, in letter to William S. Smith, 1787

"The said Constitution [shall] be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms."

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» useful little tune.... Posted by: pfeifer999
» Please document these quotes Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Read this Posted by: ReallyBearish
I'm pleased to see so many sensible comments
Posted by: Illiteratilumen on Jun 27, 2008 6:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
from Alternet readers. This site has plenty of good and thought-provoking articles but they also publish their share of leftist propoganda.

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Sheeple will remain sheeple guns or none.
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT on Jun 27, 2008 7:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A well regulated militia is generally more organized and united not totally dysfunctional. Unfortunately, there will be no revolution in America in the forseeable future unless and until America first wakes up out of its totally dysfunctional status. When will America ever learn? One who thinks will be able to hit a deer with fewer bullets compared to those who don't. It doesn't take me more than a few bullets to hit a deer so I can count on my hunting rifle and have no need of an AK-47 made in China to do my homework. Come to think of it, the more non-thinkers there are, the more the bullet manufacturers can cash in on the non-thinking weakness. By the way, where's your gun(s) and bullet(s) made from?

By the way, will the DC sheeple now take those guns and force the politicians and lobbyists to pay up or are they still going to remain IGNORANT ASSHOLES?

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» Home defense with a deer rifle? Posted by: robbie.seal
Eldy
Posted by: Eldy on Jun 27, 2008 7:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am an old gentleman of 71. I am a conservative. I own guns. I have never had any problems with inanimage objects harming me, nor any members of my family. My computer has never misspelled a word, left alone. My handguns have never hurt anyone. I am surprised by the coarse comments by right and left, who have forgotten that the oil of human kindness makes us all gentle men and gentle women. But, I remain a gentleman. I do not hunt. My guns are for pretection. If you are a gentle person, you have nothing to fear from me. But kindness is more important than guns, or slice bread. I will defend strongly your right to disagree with me, if you are kind as you do it.

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» RE: ldy Posted by: jwc1480
Fine, they want legal guns in DC
Posted by: truthteller on Jun 27, 2008 8:04 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then it's time for those on the left to acquire them and go after the Neo-con scum running the place.

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» Asking to get busted Posted by: truthteller
Other Countries?
Posted by: curiousdwk on Jun 27, 2008 8:12 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With all these comments and the article, why aren't we looking at how this is handled in other civilized countries? Are we too proud to think that we might be able to learn from other countries? Shouldn't we look at them and look at their results and recognize their good points as well as their problems? Only then should we try to have a dialogue as to how we should approach this.

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» RE: Other Countries? Posted by: BCcovers
Supreme Court got this right
Posted by: jstepp590 on Jun 27, 2008 8:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree that, however the Court got to their decision, they got to the right one. Taking away the right to bear arms would have torn our country apart and disarmed the honest citizens.

Also, in our constitution it specifically states that when our government no longer meets the needs of the people we have the right to dissolve it and form a new one. If the government is the only ones with the guns guess what? You aren't dissolving anything.

The right to bear arms keeps the power, the power of pure naked violent force, in the hands of the people where it belongs. When that force is no longer in our hands is the day we no longer have any control over our government.

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» RE: Supreme Court got this right Posted by: Romantic Violence
» RE: Supreme Court got this right Posted by: vivachavez
It's very strange....
Posted by: BCcovers on Jun 27, 2008 9:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everytime there is an article on gun rights on Alternet I'm always surprised to find that most comments (as on this article) are pro-gun.

Then why are we told that liberals are unequivically pro-gun control; if, as it seems, their constiuency is not?

This should make people even more nervous as to what the gun-grabbers motives really are. Even amongst progressives there does not seem to be wide-spread support for destroying our second amendment. So why do democrats push this so hard? It's really odd, and kind of scary that the government seems to be the only entity in America that supports disarming its citizens; even in the face of overwhelming support of the second amendment from both the right and the left.

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» RE: It's very strange.... Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: It's very strange.... Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: It's very strange.... Posted by: YogiBear
jchernic
Posted by: jchernic on Jun 27, 2008 9:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An honest government has no fear from an armed citizenry, but governments which wish to ban private firearm ownership are governments to be feared.

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It becomes increasingly more difficult . . .
Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Jun 27, 2008 9:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It becomes increasingly more difficult to understand people like the author of this essay. First of all, how is it rationally possible to demand that anyone surrender his ability to protect himself? Doesn't every living thing have that right?

Secondly, how is it rationally possible to ignore the nationally published - and that despite a media almost universally opposed and working for abolition of the Second Amendment - fact that everywhere citizens have been licensed to carry handguns, the rate of violent crime has plummeted?

Thirdly, how is it rationally possible - in the face of overwhelming evidence that violent crime increases in direct proportion to the severity of gun control efforts - to continue demanding more of what obviously doesn't work?

How is it possible on the one hand to call for the arming and commissioning of more citizens - policeman - the rate of violent crime rate will diminish, yet on the other hand argue that the arming and commissioning of citizens - those with license to carry handguns - will increase the rate of violent crime? What, the badge or uniform makes a difference?

Then why are the police per capita, shooting more people than the armed citizen otherwise?

The critic fact here is that one no one - not even people like the author of this essay - want to address the further fact that people who oppose gun ownership and carry are plainly seeking to dodge their civic responsible to fight crime. It's easier - and cowardly - to demand and to have someone else do it. These people cover with pious pronouncements their unwillingness to take meaningful part in the public order.

They're like the coward (Dick Cheney, for instance) who finds a way to shirk responsibility when his country is at war. You know - the "Let somebody else do it" people (what's different about refusing to take arms against crime and refusing to take arms against those seeking to destroy our country?).

This is about responsibility, and running away from it. If we can't be clear about anything else concerning the subject, let's at least be clear about that. It's time to stop pretending that the anti-gun crowd is simply misguided, or ignorant, somehow benevolent and well-intentioned.

They're not: they are costing people their property and lives, something the statistical evidence, to say nothing of common sense, makes incontrovertibly clear.

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» Guns are bad Posted by: Illiteratilumen
TADA: SOLUTION!
Posted by: xmvince on Jun 27, 2008 9:43 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like 90% of gun crimes are committed with un-registered weapons. SO.. Why not put a finger print reader of some sort into the gun that would only allow the owner to use it? We definitely have the technology to implement it, although I'm not sure how costly it would be. But we need to use technology to physically prevent unregistered people from using them. Making these intangible laws is only a joke for the offenders, and just a hassle for the honest individuals who want to defend themselves.

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» RE: TADA: SOLUTION! Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: TADA: SOLUTION! Posted by: WWMD
» RE: TADA: SOLUTION! Posted by: xmvince
» RE: TADA: SOLUTION! Posted by: WWMD
» RE: TADA: SOLUTION! Posted by: praedor
» More NRA rubbish Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: TADA: SOLUTION! Posted by: Romantic Violence
Death of "Original Intent"
Posted by: zak822 on Jun 27, 2008 9:46 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Justice Scalia has signaled the death of the "originalists", those people who spent a lot of years yelling at us liberals for not adhering to the original intent of the framers.

In plain fact, the argument about an individual right of gun ownership has pivoted on the 2nd Amendment term "well-regulated militia".

"Militia" is defined in the Constitution in Article 1 Section 8 as a body organize and armed by Congress. "The Congress shall have Power To: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the ervice of the United States, ..." This is not a group of people with personal arms, unless Congress says this is how they are to be armed. I don't think it has.

The 2nd Amendment to the Bill of Rights states that "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." It's important to remember that the Bill of Rights came after the Constitution. It references the earlier document, or the framers, an intelligent and very literate group, would have provided us with another definition of the term "milita". They didn't tend to leave their readers guessing about what they were trying to say.

Many of those who claim an individual right to gun ownership is a constitutional right cheerfully ignore the fact that the Constitution itself speaks to the issue. Just as they ignore the original intent of the framers--unless it suits their preconceived notions.

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» Faulty reasoning Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Death of "Original Intent" Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: Death of "Original Intent" Posted by: john mont
» RE: Death of "Original Intent" Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
Founders weren't much interested in "personal self-defense" weapons
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Jun 27, 2008 10:12 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The idea that early Americans wanted hand guns for self defense is nonsense. Back in the period prior to the Civil War, Colt developed the first revolver that was light years ahead of any other repeating weapon: reliable, easy to load, carry, reasonably accurate at close range, etc.

Problem is, he couldn't sell many of them, and was almost bankrupt. Now why wouldn't manly red blooded Americans step up in droves to buy this weapon? Because few of them wanted or saw the need for revolvers. He tried to sell the military, but they thought repeating weapons "wasted" ammunition. (For sure few of those decision makers actually fought in a battle!)

What saved Colt were the Texas Rangers who were fighting the Camanches, and were developing tactics using the new gun. The public at the time wasn't interested. Much later, the weapon became a standard for both sides in the War Between the States.

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» The evidence is clear Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: The evidence is clear Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: The evidence is clear Posted by: tsprague
» RE: The evidence is clear Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» More gun nut rubbish Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Not rubbish at all Posted by: brunowe
» I didn't say it did Posted by: brunowe
» RE: I didn't say it did Posted by: EncinoM
» Ididn't have to! Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Ididn't have to! Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Ididn't have to! Posted by: EncinoM
Barak said it best
Posted by: Axiom69 on Jun 27, 2008 11:41 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is everyone wasting their time arguing? I actually read the ruling. Do the same and you will see the depth of research that was done. They actually defined what "bear arms" and "keep arms" meant in 1776. The Supreme Court ruled it an individual right. If you don't agree then as Barak told Hillarys supporters - "get over it". :p

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BA
Posted by: mnstra on Jun 27, 2008 12:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am happy that the court ruled the way it did .Get over it. The law has taken it course.
I know that when a home invader attempts to get into my house that the liberal philosophy will not save me.having my own weapon may.
I really think that the issue of gun control alienates so may people who otherwise would support the liberal agenda. People must be able protect them selves it is as basic as any human right;especially now when government is failing so miserably and inner cities are so crime ridden.

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» RE: BA Posted by: vivachavez
Too bad the Drug War which isn't Constitutional is still in force.
Posted by: nightgaunt on Jun 27, 2008 1:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1934's National Firearms Act banned the Tommy gun which had been used in the war against alcahol. The first Federal Law against gun ownership based on the Drug War. One which is still going on now and causing many of the inner city and outer city blight and violence. No constitutional reason for it. After that failure the rest of the banning of further weapons and some chemical compounds are under the Commerce clause not the Bill of Rights which it is against. Remember the ATF? Alcahol, Tobacco and Fire Arms is still in that business. You will find that both weapon ownership and drug use are connected to this day.

I am amazed at the ruling myself.

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How distressing!
Posted by: Dboy on Jun 27, 2008 5:17 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have the right to self-defense. How distressing!

dboy

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Alright, so now all the gun toters have all their "lovely" firearms. So what next?
Posted by: maxpayne on Jun 27, 2008 6:17 PM   
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Are they gonna hold their corrupt pols and business elites accountable with them? I'd be shocked if they even tried. Will they right now try to funnel their anger against the corporate/military industrial complex? Not if those same traitors keep them "happy" with more guns and bullets. Very sad to see this country fall apart like this. May GOD have mercy on your souls. Oh wait, I forgot. He's already DAMNING this nation. Oops !

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International comparisons - BBC sourced
Posted by: harryf200 on Jun 28, 2008 3:32 AM   
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You may find the following interesting, where there is comparison between the USA, with little gun control, and some European countries, Australia and Canada, where there is significant gun control.

FIREARM HOMICIDE RATES
USA: 3.98
Italy: 0.81
Switzerland: 0.50
Canada: 0.4
Finland: 0.35
Australia: 0.24
France: 0.21
England/Wales: 0.15
(Per 100,000 people. Source: Kings College London)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7478034.stm

Bare in mind, the majority of the deaths in the countries other than the USA will have been committed with illegally held guns. E.g. it is illegal in the UK to own any hand gun, but the are still deaths cause by them, all due to illgally owned guns.

You will notice the firearms homicide rate for in the USA is significantly higher than the other countries quoted. Do you suppose this might be due to the lack of gun controls, or are the citizens of the USA more murderous than they are in those other countries?

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» They blame it on blacks Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Disingenuous statistics Posted by: pfeifer999
» RE: Disingenuous statistics Posted by: vivachavez
» RE: Disingenuous statistics Posted by: pfeifer999
» Never said they were "baseless" Posted by: pfeifer999
» outstanding post Posted by: pfeifer999
» Where is Mexico? Posted by: YogiBear
Bill
Posted by: wmetzger on Jun 28, 2008 9:37 AM   
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So it is "stupid" not to understand that the meaning of the Constitution is "dynamic." Roger Taney's constitution was certainly "dynamic" when he found in it a clause that said a black person could not be a citizen. FDR and his court understood the dynamism of the Constitution when they found that citizens of Japanese descent could, under the Constitution, be placed in concentration camps. The "dynamic" Constitution, or the "living" Constitution, if these words mean anything, mean that the Constitution means what those in power at any given time say it means. In other words, instead of a contract by which the people limit and define the powers of government, it becomes an instrument of tyranny of government over the people. A "dynamic" constitution is no constitution at all and defeats the very purpose of a written charter. Although reasonable people can disagree as to its meaning, consulting original intent is the only honest way that judges can decide such cases and remain faithful to their oath. If the passage of time renders a clause of the Constitution obsolete, then it can be formally amended. But it will not do to say, in the name of the "dynamic" Constitution, that the 2nd Amendment doesn't work anymore, so we'll just pretend it says something else and ignore it. As Barbara Jordan said, "my faith in the Constitution is whole and complete." Keep in mind that the most enthusiastic advocates of the "dynamic" Constitution in our time seem to be those who want unlimited executive power, who think concepts like due process and limits on government police power or individual privacy rights are obsolete in an age of terrorism. If you think that the 2nd amendment is subject to "dynamic" interpretation, are you willing to allow "dynamic" interpretation of habeas corpus, or the prohibition of unreasonable searches without warrant, or the fifth amendment protections of due process, etc.?

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Laughable
Posted by: vivachavez on Jun 28, 2008 4:30 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the "gun rights" supporters aren't about to buy guns to protect their liberty, rather their support for gun ownership is borne out of a creepy penis envy and an irrational fear of some "thug" (i.e. negro) breaking into their house and raping their wife or daughter.

Most of these gun nuts live in the environmentally destructive, autocentric suburbia where blacks need not apply, but still the fear of the black man persists, thus the zealotry regarding "gun rights."

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» Bigot Allert Posted by: robbie.seal
» Robbie.Seal ---- Posted by: pfeifer999
» RE: Bigot Allert Posted by: Romantic Violence
» RE: Laughable Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Laughable Posted by: Maxemum
» YogiBear LMAO Posted by: pfeifer999
Can we possibly educate the name calling anti's?
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Jun 29, 2008 11:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The hysterical anti's miss one definitive thing about the typical American gun owner.

In almost every case, those who are vocal about the right to legally possess/carry a gun are those who are responsible citizens such as homeowners, business owners, family members, etc. Many many of us are veterans such as myself.

Like others here and elsewhere, I am a responsible home/business owner.
Aside from sometimes posting inanities, I'm serious minded and absolutely serious in my insistence upon my rights as an American citizen, the safety and pleasantness of my neighborhood, my own personal safety, the security of my home and of my neighbors' homes, the realization that a home invasion in my neighborhood is a rare occurence and that my insistence upon my right to protect myself is not something born of hysteria.
There is crime in Wausau, the small ciy in which I live.
I am exposed during my regular business activities and carry cash, expensive tools and equipment, etc.

I am well aware that police are AFTER THE FACT.
How often does anyone hear of the police being called PRIOR to a crime being committed?
And, what is their typical response to a call PRIOR to a crime.
Yes, nothing as, there is nothing they can actually do to prevent crime.
This is NOT a knock against the police, rather it is just a fact of life that the sorts of people who are going to commit a crime are almost never prevented from doing so by the police.
If they are caught at all, it is AFTER the crime has been committed.
It is impossible for the police to always know who is going to commit a crime.
They do not have a crystal ball.

I'll finish this in my next comment.

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How is it?
Posted by: throck on Jun 29, 2008 9:20 PM   
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How is it that progressives claim to support liberty without supporting the one right that will protect the rest of their freedoms? One thing to remember about those who would ban guns is that they are willing to kill people (gun owners) in order to take their property. Since when is genocide a progressive value? In order to accomplish their goals, they will need guns, making them hypocrites as well. I think I had better keep my guns in working order. The progressives want peace and are willing to kill to get it.

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ranchero42