Home
Archive
Columnists
Video
Blogs
Discuss
About
Search
Donate
Advertise
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Register to Vote: Rock the Vote, powered by Working Assets Wireless
Advertisement
  • AlterNetYour turn

Support AlterNet
Do you value the information you're getting from AlterNet? Please show your support with a tax-deductible donation.


Feedback
Tell us how we're doing.

War on Iraq

12 Reasons Why Leaving Iraq Is the Only Sane Thing to Do

By Tom Engelhardt, Tomdispatch.com. Posted April 24, 2008.


Since the press doesn't bother to ask key questions, here's an attempt to unravel the situation in Iraq.
Advertisement

Can there be any question that, since the invasion of 2003, Iraq has been unraveling? And here's the curious thing: Despite a lack of decent information and analysis on crucial aspects of the Iraqi catastrophe, despite the way much of the Iraq story fell off newspaper front pages and out of the TV news in the last year, despite so many reports on the "success" of the President's surge strategy, Americans sense this perfectly well. In the latest Washington Post/ABC News poll, 56% of Americans "say the United States should withdraw its military forces to avoid further casualties" and this has, as the Post notes, been a majority position since January 2007, the month that the surge was first announced. Imagine what might happen if the American public knew more about the actual state of affairs in Iraq -- and of thinking in Washington. So, here, in an attempt to unravel the situation in ever-unraveling Iraq are twelve answers to questions which should be asked far more often in this country:

1. Yes, the war has morphed into the U.S. military's worst Iraq nightmare: Few now remember, but before George W. Bush launched the invasion of Iraq in March 2003, top administration and Pentagon officials had a single overriding nightmare -- not chemical, but urban, warfare. Saddam Hussein, they feared, would lure American forces into "Fortress Baghdad," as Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld labeled it. There, they would find themselves fighting block by block, especially in the warren of streets that make up the Iraqi capital's poorest districts.

When American forces actually entered Baghdad in early April 2003, however, even Saddam's vaunted Republican Guard units had put away their weapons and gone home. It took five years but, as of now, American troops are indeed fighting in the warren of streets in Sadr City, the Shiite slum of two and a half million in eastern Baghdad largely controlled by Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army militia. The U.S. military, in fact, recently experienced its worst week of 2008 in terms of casualties, mainly in and around Baghdad. So, mission accomplished -- the worst fear of 2003 has now been realized.

2. No, there was never an exit strategy from Iraq because the Bush administration never intended to leave -- and still doesn't: Critics of the war have regularly gone after the Bush administration for its lack of planning, including its lack of an "exit strategy." In this, they miss the point. The Bush administration arrived in Iraq with four mega-bases on the drawing boards. These were meant to undergird a future American garrisoning of that country and were to house at least 30,000 American troops, as well as U.S. air power, for the indefinite future. The term used for such places wasn't "permanent base," but the more charming and euphemistic "enduring camp." (In fact, as we learned recently, the Bush administration refuses to define any American base on foreign soil anywhere on the planet, including ones in Japan for over 60 years, as permanent.) Those four monster bases in Iraq (and many others) were soon being built at the cost of multibillions and are, even today, being significantly upgraded. In October 2007, for instance, National Public Radio's defense correspondent Guy Raz visited Balad Air Base, north of Baghdad, which houses about 40,000 American troops, contractors, and Defense Department civilian employees, and described it as "one giant construction project, with new roads, sidewalks, and structures going up across this 16-square-mile fortress in the center of Iraq, all with an eye toward the next few decades."

These mega-bases, like "Camp Cupcake" (al-Asad Air Base), nicknamed for its amenities, are small town-sized with massive facilities, including PXs, fast-food outlets, and the latest in communications. They have largely been ignored by the American media and so have played no part in the debate about Iraq in this country, but they are the most striking on-the-ground evidence of the plans of an administration that simply never expected to leave. To this day, despite the endless talk about drawdowns and withdrawals, that hasn't changed. In fact, the latest news about secret negotiations for a future Status of Forces Agreement on the American presence in that country indicates that U.S. officials are calling for "an open-ended military presence" and "no limits on numbers of U.S. forces, the weapons they are able to deploy, their legal status or powers over Iraqi citizens, going far beyond long-term U.S. security agreements with other countries."


Digg!

See more stories tagged with: iraq, withdrawal, street warfare, military, green zone, occupation

Tom Engelhardt, editor of Tomdispatch.com, is co-founder of the American Empire Project and author of The End of Victory Culture.

Liked this story? Get top stories in your inbox each week from War on Iraq! Sign up now »


Advertisement

 

Comments Turn comments off sitewide Give us feedback »
Tools: [Post a new comment] [Login] [Signup] View:
Cutting Our Losses
Posted by: Tom Degan on Apr 24, 2008 1:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who babble on about the consequences of America losing this war if we withdraw miss a crucial point: This war was lost the moment the first boot set foot on Iraqi soil in March 2002. This war was lost when the First Fool stood on the deck of the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln, with that stupid smirk on his face, under the banner which proclaimed, for all the world to see, "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED". Looking at that photo today, it's almost touching how gut-bustingly idiotic out commander-in-chief looks.

The assault on the men, women and little children of Iraq - the stupidest military blunder in American history - is going to end disastrously for this country. Whether we leave in 2008 or 2108, we will lose this war. It was already lost years ago.

Pray for peace.

Tom Degan
"The Rant" bt Tom Degan

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» WE NEED TO APOLOGIZE... Posted by: skizum
» RE: WE NEED TO ... PROSECUTE Posted by: Crazy H
» Pray for Peace Posted by: robbie.seal
» Let's see ACTION! = Impeachment Posted by: left_libertarian
Only sane for the political advantage of the Dems
Posted by: slydad on Apr 24, 2008 2:29 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only reason for leaving Iraq at this time would be so that it would be marked as a disaster and then all the Democrats would be able to say, "see, I told you so".

You guys want to label this war a disaster and then you want us to leave before it's finished to fulfill that prophecy. It's kind of alarming that you folks are actually rooting for us to lose, but that's the only thing that can happen for you to be able to save face.

OTOH - For our nation to save face, we need to stay until the job's done and the US and the Iraqis are seen as victors.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Speaking of phony balogna Posted by: slydad
» Amen Posted by: robbie.seal
» RE: Amen Posted by: HillbillyBob
Otto
Posted by: otto on Apr 24, 2008 4:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A great summary of what has taken place...now how do we get the message out to all those who are unaware?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Getting The Word Out Posted by: skizum
» RE: Otto Posted by: notmom
» RE: Otto Posted by: willymack
It's not just Iraq that's unraveling
Posted by: Dboy on Apr 24, 2008 4:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America is in decline, and a genuine pullout of Iraq would make that fact obvious to everyone. Much like the former Soviet Union, if the America doesn't expand it will die..but endless expansion will ALSO lead to ruin. Maintaining an empire of vassal states is an expensive strategy but America will not be able to reverse this except by enormous domestic unrest and economic strain. Inflation and 'Peak Everything' will certainly get the blame, but the truth is that the course of the United States was accurately predicted by thinkers such as Karl Marx. Nature will run it's course and the empire will fall just as previous ones have. No amount of 'humanitarian bombings' (terrorism), 'exporting democracy' (subjugation of formerly-free peoples), or 'war on terror' (war OF terror) can cure what ails this nation.

Much of America's real industry has now been outsourced, sending the 'heartland' states into decline and creating ghost-towns. With the only remaining industries being financial services, technology, and military, and with medical research relocating outside the US due to the anti-science, anti-intellectual tide sweeping the land through christian fundamentalism, America now lacks the industrial/business diversification to recover from financial crisis.

The good news is that there's a whole world out there of great places to do business, to study, to create communities, and to live. But I would be very careful when considering making long-term investments in America (real estate, farms, business). All empires eventually turn on their own people, and this has already begun in America. Watch out for Obama trying to steal your guns after the election. Tyranny always prefers an un-armed population.

dboy



There's room at the top they are telling you still,
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,
If you want to be like the folks on the hill
--John Lennon, Working Class Hero

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» "Formerly Free People"? Posted by: robbie.seal
Reason #13
Posted by: HughScott on Apr 24, 2008 8:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Engelhardt missed the most important reason of all for leaving Iraq: The Iraqis DON'T want us there!

Put yourself in their shoes -- here in the United States. Late one bnight, a white pickup truck filled with Iraqi soldiers stops in front of your house, breaks down your door, points AK47s at your family and in broken English demands to know if you own a shotgun.

How would you feel? Angry enough to throw pipe bombs at the local Iraqi occupation outpost?

God I hope so. Or else the American Revolution was fought in vain.

-----------------------------------------------
Hugh E. Scott, Vietnam veteran, ex-USAF pilot, lifelong registered Republican, ARDENT Obama supporter and the editor of www.PhonyFighterPilot.com -- the only website about George W. Bush that presents irrefutable, smoking-gun proof of White House corruption.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Angry Americans Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: eason #13 Posted by: braxxian1
» RE: eason #13 Posted by: Turiye
The Great Golden Cash Cow Cult in Iraq and soon Iran...
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Apr 24, 2008 8:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we are in any real way patriots then it's clear that it is in every way in the best interest of the United States and the American people and our forces to leave Iraq as soon as possible..!

On of the best and most important points made here for me is that in truth neither al-Qaeda or Iran will control Iraq if we were to leave within the next year..!

The Iraqi people and the many militias have there own personal interests and agendas and they are no more likely to abdicate their oil or wealth or control of their regions or neighborhoods to al-Qaeda or for that matter Iran either..!

This is a lie that the administration uses repeatedly to be allowed to keep milking the cash cow which is really what Iraq is all about..

A big cash cow that allows the Bush Mafia and friends to plunder the United States Treasury and funnel billions upon billions into the pockets of their friends and associates till they bleed us We The People dry..!

There's no winning in Iraq and no losing it's all about keeping it going priming the pump and these bastards don't care if they completely destroy our Army, our economy, and our standing in the world what's left of it as long as they can keep milking that sacred cow of Iraq..!

Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld, and Rice and Wolfowitz, and Petraeus all worship at the altar of the Golden Calf Cash Cow of Iraq..!

An soon with Gen. Petraeus as Centcom Commander they will spread this greed ridden death cult of theirs to Iran and celebrate their blood sacrifices there to the Great Golden Cash Cow of unbridled greed in Iran as well..

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Cambodia never happened either... Posted by: robbie.seal
Peace is an option
Posted by: solrev on Apr 24, 2008 9:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would agree with about 99% of the author’s assessment of Iraq, however the reason we invaded Iraq has not been stated. We invaded Iraq to set up permanent military bases to insure the free flow of oil and to protect the oil-dollar. The only value the dollar has is OPO, other people’s oil. If anyone interferes with oil-dollar or the flow of oil a worldwide depression would be the immediate result. Why do you think China is willing to finance the war? Israel is just a pone in the cold war between Iran and the US and has been for a long time, however Israel has its own agenda. Saudi Arabia has its own agenda for dealing with al qaeda. Chaney and the oil boys got greedy and tried to force Iraq into a sweetheart deal for getting the oil out of the ground. The US could have pulled the whole thing off if they would have just given the Iraqi nationalists their oil. Iraq as a nation would have popped up instantaneously. The al-Sadr Shia and the Arab Sunni, the people who fought Iran, would have united Iraq. The Iraqi would not have minded our military presence no matter what the size of that presence, if we kept a low profile. Instead we went to war with the Iraqi nationalists, a big mistake. Now the nationalists have to bushwhack us, until the American people our fed up to the point of ending our evolvement in Iraq. Then the nationalists will have to fight a civil war with the Iranian and al qaeda backed fundamentalists. Just to get what we could have given them in the beginning. It is not too late to do that, we could establish an Iraq that can balance the Iranian influence in the Middle East. Nothing can be gained by invading Iran. Two countries’ nationalists would be bushwhacking us and when we left, Iran would make sure that the fundamentalists won the civil war, something they can not do now. We know what McCain will do; he wants to fight a war because he got cheated out of Nam. Clinton and Obama both talk of some kind of withdrawal. Clinton has beaten the drums of war to many times to have any credibility in the Middle East, Obama by default. I hope Obama acts like a good Illinois politician and cuts a deal. Give Clinton the Presidency and domestic policy and take the VP and foreign policy. That may be the only way to create a mandate of we the people big enough to change the world. We can get back to being America again, we don’t start it we finish It and we will not fight over resources.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: maybe Posted by: solrev
» RE: Last I heard.. Posted by: Longdream
We broke it...
Posted by: Crazy H on Apr 24, 2008 10:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...we gotta fix it. Yeah, we gotta get the military out, but we're the ones that trashed an already-weakened country.

Iraq must be rebuilt - and the idea that they should pay for that rebuilding themselves is ludicrous. Look at it this way, if someone burned your house down, then came along and said, "Hey, you can use your own money to rebuild it" Would you be happy about it? Would that make you their friend for life? Or would you prefer that the arsonist paid to rebuild it?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: We broke it... Posted by: Libsrule
» RE: We broke it... Posted by: Crazy H
Too Long for a Bumper Sticker
Posted by: robbie.seal on Apr 24, 2008 12:37 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks for explaining your bumper sticker collection. Whether you like it or not, we are there. If we pull out now, there is no doubt that chaos will reign and blood will flow. We do need to leave, but not yet. We broke it. We need to help fix it. I think its worth the effort. Like it or not, the Surge is working for now. Now we need to follow it up with REAL assistance. Get the NGOs in there to help while we have the forces there to provide security. The military doesn't have the expertise that NGOs do to rebuild the infrastructure etc. The national government in Iraq is in bad shape. Remember how long it took the US to build its government after our revolution? We didn't have religious extremists raising Cain in our streets. The local leaders in Iraq are building the foundation of the government. That is what the Iraqis need to do. They need some help from us to get there. If someone else could step in and help them, I'd gladly invite them to do it.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Too Long for a Bumper Sticker Posted by: brock_samson
» RE: Too Long for a Bumper Sticker Posted by: left_libertarian
» WE did not elect them Posted by: marid
Bush's Baghdad Palace
Posted by: Cathyc on Apr 24, 2008 3:11 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Among the many secrets the American government cannot keep, one of its biggest (104 acres) and most expensive ($592 million) is the American Embassy being built in Baghdad. Surrounded by fifteen-foot-thick walls, almost as large as the Vatican on a scale comparable to the Mall of America, to which it seems to have a certain spiritual affinity, this is no simple object to hide.

So you think the Bush Administration is planning on leaving Iraq? Read on.


from The Nation:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060703/howl

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Not exactly news, but....
Posted by: sawdust on Apr 24, 2008 4:12 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unless you have been sharing a cave with Bin Laden, been brain dead or haven't read anything on the insanity called "The War In Iraq" on the internet in five years, there wasn't much news here, but it was certainly well organized and nicely delivered. I have been waiting for a neat, concise, cogent and readable "State of the Disaster Summary" for some time. This one does it.Having enjoyed that brief respite from my normal state of nausea, I think I'll go back to being sick.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Not exactly news, but.... Posted by: VZEQICVA
It was always all about..
Posted by: Farragher on Apr 24, 2008 4:12 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
establishing the first beachhead in the coming war to determine who is in control of the diminishing resource when it runs out. Noone can talk about the real reasons for going to Iraq, because it is a classic land (power) grab. If it were a move one made in a board game, it would be lauded as genius. The idea surely was to do something so audatious, that noone would expect it. By noone I mean the little people like us. There is no doubt in my mind that many nations are in some way complicit. Therefore, the bottom line is no amount of discussion, or protest is going to get us out of Iraq. Why do you think it is such a secondary, or tertiary issue in the election? Because by now, the candidates have been briefed, and sworn to secrecy under penalty of death, to go along. How does one preserve hedgemony, if one can no longer be a financial or manufacturing leader? How about controlling the diminishing supply of oil, and threaten to move in and take over more of it. Gain control of the Iraqi and Iranian reserves, and get in league with Saudi Arabia, coupled with our own reserves, and you've got formidable control. We poor sods get $4 per gallon motor fuel, which is soon to be probably $5. The problem with all if this is that we are not all rich, and therefore sooner or later we will reach the breaking point. Our motor, and home heating fuels bills will finally become such a great part of our budgets, that we'll have to cancel the cable service, and then maybe enough people will wake up and realize that they've been robbed of a much different future.

I further postulate that if we wanted to end the conflict in Iraq, meaning no more shooting or blowing things up, we'd need to seal the border. How difficult do you think that would be? Remember, Iraq is the size of Texas, and we have upwards of 300,000 personell loyal to the U.S., in country. This includes U.S. soldiers, and contractors(mercenaries). Plus, very smart weapons, the best space baced surveillence systems in the world and arguably the best land based surveillence systems, unimaginable airpower, and what should be the very best tactical planners on the planet for what we spend on our military. So, if we really wanted to stop the blood shed, don't you all agree we ought to be able to do so? Stop the flow of weapons and munitions, and the conflict would degenerate into swords, maces, crossbows and catapults. Think we could take those on?

No, I think "enduring camps" is a very blunt in your face "clue" for all of those who think otherwise. We are never leaving Iraq.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: It was always all about.. Posted by: Dark Night
Yes lets all jump on the bandwagon.
Posted by: Vin on Apr 24, 2008 11:37 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pulling US troops out of Iraq right now would be a disaster for the region. Whatever the reasons for getting into this war, be need to leave Iraq stable. We owe it to the Iraqi’s to help maintain some sort of peace. If you don't care about the people of Iraq, then shame on you.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

1. Get out. 2. Let Iraqis rebuild their own damn country.
Posted by: antiapathy on Apr 25, 2008 7:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems like a lot of people, trolls, or what have you, genuinely believe that ending the occupation would lead to "chaos and bloodshed". They say have to stay in Iraq to save face, or to rebuild their country. If we leave the terrorists will win and Iraq will become an extremist religious state. A haven for terrorists. A partner of those evil-doers in Iran.

Reading these comments, it makes me wonder if these people took the time to read the article. When you make claims that ignore or contradict the facts in the article, it would be helpful to at least cite some other facts that back up those claims. Or are these opinions not based on facts? Obviously opinions don't have to be based on facts.

I guess I'm just a little disturbed that people think Iraqis are incapable of rebuilding their own country, and that our occupation is the only thing keeping these "fanatics" from blowing each other up.

I don't think the general public realizes how we completely destroyed their infrastructure and economy. There are so many militias because the unemployment level has skyrocketed. We have completely privatized and outsourced the rebuilding of Iraq, when we should be allowing Iraqis to have those jobs rebuilding their own country.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Tour de force of USA's cruel, tragic farce in Iraq.
Posted by: 8 nontheist on Apr 25, 2008 12:05 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tom Englehardt is at his usual best in writing of the mess the USA's neo-con chicken hawks made in Iraq. To mix metaphors, one must expect nothing save a mess when the hare brained go off half cocked; Iraq now resembles a hen house after a pack of rabid skunks have hit the hen house & gorged themselves on the chickens. Packs of rabid animals have been known to attack & devour each other. That's happened to those REMF's who've kept the mayhem going in Iraq. Read their criticisms of other chicken hawk, REMIF's to see what I mean.
W & his supporters & fellow criminals who make quick, flying, morale building/fact finding jaunts to Iraq are REMF's in the worst sense of the term. They never do 12-15 month tours in Iraq.
I'm a regular reader of TOM'S DISPATCH. I have access to this sort of vivid, concise writing each time Tom posts a new issue on the web. Yes, I'm giving TOM'S DISPATCH a plug.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Withdraw From Iraq ? Sanity Is Not the Issue
Posted by: hadashito on Apr 25, 2008 1:03 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When we have a deranged, arrogant, paranoid, tin-horn Hitler by the name of Dick Cheney, and his drooling-for-more taxpayer money Pentagon flunkies running the show, there's not the slightest chance that a sane poilicy will ever come out of this disaster.
And then there's Cheney's cowardly Mussolini, little ol' Dubya, who swaggers around and poses, giving imitations of heartfelt speeches, mostly to military folks, just like Il Duce, and hasn't got a clue about about what 's going on, anywhere - - and you are suggesting sanity ? Good luck.
Only when Cheney is buried outside the bunker and Bush hung upside down in the market square (figuratively, of course) will any sane policy be possible. If the MSM pundits and dirty tricks by the Rove gang can be ignored and beaten back, then in November - - MAYBE - - some sanity will return to reversing our debacle in Iraq.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

oxheadone
Posted by: oxheadone on Apr 25, 2008 4:31 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The main sane reason for simply leaving Iraq is that we can't afford staying.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

The ONLY reason that we're in Iraq right now, is that...
Posted by: jvaljon1 on Apr 26, 2008 12:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...somehow, we don't have the political will to leave, and that's what I cannot for the life of me, understand.

Look--we were lied to by Bush and Cheney: it wasn't Iraq but Saudi Arabia which committed 9/11--and 9/11 is the ONLY REASON that we the American People went to war in the first place--we all know that, by now. BUT:

That it was all a huge lie by W, begs the question: since we all know that America was lied into this war by a criminal Commander-In-Chief, this actually begs two questions:

1) We ALL know this; so, where's the Congressional pullout resolution? And:

2) When are we going to retaliate against Saudi Arabia for 9/11? (A nuke over Riyadh comes to mind)

These are two wrongs that will never make a right. That's also why Bush most likely will escape the justice that he more than deserves, for all his crimes against us, and against Iraq, a totally innocent nation.

I wish everyone would just close their eyes for a moment and imagine that both these wrongs were somehow righted tomorrow; that Saudi Arabia had been retaliated against, for 9/11--and that, at the same time, we were out of Iraq. A little mental exercise...

Now, open your eyes and see (literally) how you would feel about America's part in world affairs, then.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

SINCE WE DIDN'T STAY OUT WE SHOULD GET OUT
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Apr 26, 2008 1:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One major problem. Displaced Iraqis are in the millions. They cannot come home and they cannot stay in Syria & Jordan because they are running out of money. Those housed in tent cities are short of water and basic needs. Disease is rampant. It's not just about leaving. That would be easy. How do we walk away from that? The rest of the world is mad at us. If sane people were in charge it could be done over time but corruption on all sides complicates everything. Thanks,ANNA

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Don't you remember how we left Viet Nam?
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Apr 26, 2008 3:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Did staying an extra 10 years make a difference?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

bozhidar bob balkas
Posted by: bozhidar on Apr 26, 2008 5:02 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
US cannot lose in iraq. by US, i mean the ruling class; probably about 5 million richest amers.
and as far as i can discern, the ruling class is represented not only by politicians but also by pentagon/SD (state dep't).
if i'm correct that SD/pentagon employs thousands of specialists who probably know a lot more on any issue than any politico, then al-bushi is doing what he was told to do.
folks, all of the comments i read miss the obvious:
bush is doing what every prez has done. each prez, seems to me, had waged war(s) for expansion.
why is bush so much worse than truman (of hironaga infamy), kennedy, johnson, nixon, clinton, ghb, fdr, carter, et al?
well, he isn't. he's doing what he was told to do. if not, ruling class finds another 'leader'
to carry out the longstanding policy for expansion.
it's the expansion, stupid. and iraq is a success. success to the ruling class; not to a hobo, a housewife.
real estate is what's it all abt and money obtained from it. but, of course, not for working class. working class loses, as always.
another obvious fact that most commenters skirt or eschew is to evaluate the of-necessary-truth principle than no land has the right to attack another under no known circumstance.
out of this a corrollary arising that only people who do crime do time and not civilians who are, generally speaking, by far more innocent than the actual perpetrators.
corrolary to above statements being that it doesn' matter an iota whether bush lied or told truth.
after this analyses, questions arise: how best to capture a criminal, let's say, saddam. well the world court issues a warrant for his arrest.
if he doesnt't give himself up, put ransom of $billions on his head and send specialists after him. wouldnt he have run to europe for protection knowing he would be dead meat?
and saddam only had abt 5 billion enemies.
but the invasion, i conclude, was not abt saddam or oil(remember it flowed in ammounts desired) but abt obtaining a third-stepping stone to all of asia.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Menopausal Mick
Posted by: Menopausal Mick on Apr 29, 2008 5:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Interesting viewpoints expressed here. I agree with much of what has been said. One thing I never see mentioned anywhere is the REAL reason democracy has no chance of succeeding in a primarily Muslim state wherein the separation of church and state is non-existent.

Democracy can’t happen when one part of a population owns another part. Equal rights for female Muslims? Each time a Bushite gets misty-eyed about bringing Democracy to the Middle East or Iraq, in particular, I keep waiting for someone to ask for their definition of “democracy”.

Fundamental Islamic fanatics aren’t just angry that we invaded Iraq. They’re fearful of western culture/democracy having a foothold anywhere that might affect the purity of Islam. I think Bin Laden is a true believer and feels himself charged by Allah to protect Islamic ideals.

Interesting Frontline bio:
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/bio.html


He has declared himself to be Pan-Islamic meaning he’ll take followers from any nation of Islam. This makes him sort of like the relative you hope doesn’t come to Thanksgiving Dinner for Muslim nations everywhere. They may not like their relative, but anyone else attacking him forces a response in his defense. And it is one reason the US will never catch him. They can’t afford the firestorm his trial and possible execution would ignite from all over the Middle East. And they really really can’t afford to anger the Saudi royals who have a love/hate/love relationship with ole’ Bin.

What does that mean for us in practical terms? Nothing will stop the violence in the Middle East until we stop making fundamental extremist Islamic boyos fearful of change. Fear is a much stronger reason for violence than anger.

As a country we need to either admit some truth about the need for foreign oil and thus a presence in Iraq OR we have to DEMAND alternative energy now. I vote (if I still have a vote in our rigged election country) for alternative energy.

If we’d get into the race for alternative energy it could help turn our economy around. The world’s oilfields peaked about four years ago from what I am reading. If it costs two barrels of oil to extract one barrel of crude because the field has been pumped, then they stop drilling. Prices skyrocket…and anyone who has been to the pump lately knows that this is already happening.

Anyway…I’ve been trying to talk sense in a world that has gone mad. I only recently found this site. I’m glad to see someone else is talking a bit of common sense.

Come see me if ya get bored. The site is only a couple of months old and we’re still tweaking it a bit but we’re trying to add our voices to the battle to save Democracy as our form of government in this country.

Pleasant day, fellow travelers…

Menopausal Mick@phukkoff.com

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

First we must redefine "victory"
Posted by: sterling on May 3, 2008 12:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We cannot think of "victory" as we have in previous conflicts. This one is different, much different. My personal definition of victory in Iraq is this: A somewhat stable country -- not "stable" as in 1st world country stable -- where the government is mostly in control and can provide its own internal security without the assistance of foreign combat forces. Think about it, was there ever a time where we (America) were assisted by foreign forces? Oh, that's right...the Revolutionary War, how the USA came to be in the first place! Iraq is a mess, I don't disagree with that, but our misguided govt put us there and now we must find a solution so we can reduce our presence in that part of the world (we will never totally leave). By the way, I am a soldier on my 5th tour in the middle east.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]