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War on Iraq

Anti-War Voters Trust McCain to Make Decisions About 'War on Terror'

By Ira Chernus, AlterNet. Posted March 12, 2008.


Republicans may have already found a way to control the terms of the fall debate.
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We don't know who will carry the Democrats' banner onto the political battlefield this fall. But we do know the kind of attack the Dems will face. The McCain campaign has little in its arsenal beyond two words: "No Surrender" -- no surrender anywhere, but especially in Iraq. Its strategy is merely to hurl that phrase over and over again, in every form imaginable.

Can it work, with public opinion still so firmly against the war? Frank Rich, a liberal stalwart of the New York Times op-ed page, doubts it. He claims that "the mere mention of Iraq is dangerous to Mr. McCain. … It will be a slam-dunk for Democrats to argue that it's long past time for the Iraqis to stand up on a sensible timetable that will allow the Americans to stand down."

But when the issue is war and peace, Democrats should be as wary as George Tenet about predicting a "slam dunk." Frank Rich, like so many others, assumes that voters who are against the war will choose the candidate who is against the war. Ah, if only our fellow citizens were indeed so logical, how much easier it would be to forecast elections -- and what a different nation this would be.

In fact, the polling numbers from late February and early March already show a less logical, more disturbing trend. A clear majority still think the war was a mistake. But when the question is which candidate will do best handling the war, McCain wins every time. In an LA Times/Bloomberg (LAT/B) poll, it's no contest. He outpolls Clinton on the question 51-35 and outpolls Obama 47-34. A Washington Post/ABC (WP/ABC) poll pitted McCain only against Obama. Though the result was closer, McCain still won 48-43. Yet 63% in that poll said the war was not worth fighting.

In a New York Times/CBS News (NYT/CBS) poll, 58% said the U.S. should never have attacked Iraq. Yet again McCain gets the highest score on "making the right decisions on Iraq"; 58% are confident about McCain (27% "very" confident), 57% about Obama (only 20% "very" confident), and 50% about Clinton. Among the crucial independent voters, McCain gets 62% confidence, while Obama gets only 54% and Clinton 51%. Though 83% of Democrats say the war was wrong, a whopping 42% are confident McCain will make the right decisions on the war, while 21% of Democrats have no confidence in Obama and the same number no confidence in Clinton.

How to explain these surprising numbers? Part of the explanation lies in the changing view of the war. Over the last year, the number who say the war is going well jumped from 30% to 48% in the LAT/B poll. The NYT/CBS poll records a similar jump since last June, from 22% to 43%. In the WP/ABC poll, the number who see "significant progress" jumped from 31% to 43% in just the last three months. That increase tracks very closely with the growing political fortunes of McCain, who was all but counted out last summer.

Yet in nearly every poll a majority do not expect this progress to produce success for the U.S. 54% say things are still going badly, in the NYT/CBS poll. And when Pew asked, "Should we bring the troops home as soon as possible?" more said yes than no (though just barely, 49-47). So, while the growing perception that "the surge is working" helps McCain, it's hard to credit that alone for the voter's trust in him.

Another key to McCain's success is his view that Iraq is just one front, though the most vital, in a global war on terrorism. On that global front, voters clearly see him as their most trustworthy defender.

When the LAT/B poll asked, "Who would be best at protecting the country from terrorism?", McCain bested Clinton by the wide margin of 54-27 and Obama by the even wider margin of 58-21. In the Pew poll, 43% said Obama would not be tough enough on foreign policy and national security issues. 37% had the same concern about Clinton, but a mere 16% about McCain. Independents showed the same pattern on the issue as the overall electorate.

Remember the "crisis phone call, 3 AM" commercial that the Clinton campaign used so successfully? Rasmussen Reports was smart enough to ask voters whom they'd rather have answering that phone: Clinton, Obama, or . . . McCain. The two Democrats got only 25% each, while McCain was way ahead with 42%.

These numbers point to the most important factor of all. Most McCain-trusters are not telling the pollsters what they think about competing policies. How many of them really know anything about the various candidates' policies on global terrorism? They hear questions about "crisis," "protecting," and "toughness" as questions about the candidates' character: Who can I really trust? Who will stand firm when the going gets rough? Which one will take care of America in an emergency? Which one has guts?

Those are precisely the questions McCain plans to make central in this year's election. (Take a look at this video from the McCain campaign, where he morphs into Winston Churchill and Teddy Roosevelt.) If he can get even a slim majority to care more about character than rational analysis of policies, he may very well be on the way to the White House.


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See more stories tagged with: election08, war on terror, iraq, clinton, obama, mccain

Ira Chernus is Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder and author of Monsters To Destroy: The Neoconservative War on Terror and Sin.

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Perhaps this may be true
Posted by: talkville on Mar 12, 2008 1:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2 of the 3 major candidates for election to the Executive Branch of the Federal Government are emphasizing credentials by appealing to 'experience'; this barely disguised euphemism really means: Connections. One of them in a more domestic, the other in a foreign policy aspect. Both are of a piece with the very apparatus of this corporate-state that has emerged into the open in the last few decades. Their election would signify a status quo, perhaps 'tweaked' just a bit to 'satisfy the populace'.

Iraq was a well-planned, well-engineered and well-executed exercise in unilateral aggression and invasion of a sovereign country based on half-truths and outright lies and falsehoods. Not long ago this was called imperialism, I don't know what the current term might be. It is by now not so much a 'war' as an entrenching Occupation, being constructed from the ground up and not for the overall benefit of the Iraqi people (or those who remain living to watch it happen). The Occupation even managed to draw in al-qaeda, which had not been there before and which now provides the very pretext for remaining there (something circular about all this?)

But it may very well turn out this article is right. The rapidly deteriorating economic conditions on the domestic side and the ongoing occupation and provocations to the middle east on the foreign side cannot but increase anxieties which, of course, can only mean fears-- and when votes are cast out of fear and raw emotions this is bound to run in favor of the unlikeliest of more reasoned assessments.

In all events, it seems it will be a kind of referendum on a new age of imperial consolidation.

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» this part of the premise isn't true Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: Perhaps this may be true Posted by: cherylholmes
Depends on what it means to be against the war.
Posted by: AlexLawyer on Mar 12, 2008 2:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The alleged anti-war, pro-McCain voters are not against the war on principle. They are not bothered by the fraudulent casus belli, the massive Iraqi casualties or the international outrage, which attracts people to terrorist groups. These voters are disgusted with the poor management of a war in which they basically believe, and they think McCain more competent to manage it than Bush. If one polled people who have always opposed the war, I'm sure Obama and Nader would come out on top.

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Words vs Action!
Posted by: carbon-based on Mar 12, 2008 2:54 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder if those polled were driven by the lack of strategic thinking on Obama and Clintons part while McCains strategy makes more sense.

Neither Clinton or Obama put forth a plan for getting us out of Iraq..they only say we will withdraw immediately..any clear thinking person knows thats not possible so it paints them as inexperienced! No one wants to see their country defeated amid a war with Islamic extremest as well.

They both need to develop something with more substance than "Change" and get out of Iraq ASAP"

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» RE: Words vs Action! Posted by: jareilly
The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: Moonray on Mar 12, 2008 2:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read between the lines of those poll results and you will find many voters are saying: We'd rather have a white war-monger than a peace-maker who's black or female. It's that simple.

Rush Limbaugh has been chortling that the Democrats "don't have a chance" and he might be right. Look at the small number of white males who vote for Obama in state after state.

Republicans typically win by tricking working-class whites into voting against their own interests. This time, the Republicans are counting on the inherent racism and sexism of working-class whites to create that same voting trend.

If the Republicans win in November, it will represent a crisis for American democracy. That outcome would signal that most Americans KNOWINGLY embrace militarism, racism, sexism and fiscal stupidity in their choice of leaders, and America would lose what little moral standing it has left. Other developed nations would begin to disassociate themselves from us in a serious way.

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Yes we can ??
Posted by: adamskiinasia on Mar 12, 2008 3:01 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I smile when progressives are so confident about how Americans will dump the GOP and everything will be fine. Half of voting Americans are ignorant, overly-patriotic, war-mongering simpletons. This article is spot on in pointing out the obvious to anyone who has watched American politics closely; for every well-informed, peaceful progressive in America there are 4 rednecks. Take them to a voting booth and sing them your "Yes we can" song and see who they vote for. Can everyone see which party , with all the voting morons in America , will be staying in the White House ? YES, WE CAN !!! :)

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» RE: Yes we can ?? Posted by: naryaquid
» RE: Yes we can ?? Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Yes we can ?? Posted by: VZEQICVA
The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: Swedish liberal on Mar 12, 2008 3:35 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
US voters, in particular the non hippie Baby Boomers, remember the disgraceful retreat from Vietnam. The US left the Vietnamese people to communist oppression, terror and massive poverty. Appalling human rights condition, lack of democracy and lack of economic growth.

The fight against communist aggression and against totalitarianism is and will always be on the top agenda for the American people.

The decision to fight in Vietnam and Iraq was in essence correct but it was extremely poorly executed.

When it comes to setting the US on the right track and at the same time ensure that the mistakes in leaving Vietnam is not made. Leaving the population to a worse government.

The right to self determination does not mean that a totalitarian regime can take over but the right to elf determination comes from the individual.

And in this respect I think most Americans believe that John McCain is best suited to do a ordered retreat as fast as possible without leaving the Iraqi people in as dire straits as teh Vietnamese people was left in.

Unfortunately both Obama and Clinton's policies on Iraq reeks of desperation, get out as soon as possible let the Iraqis fend best they can.

If Obama and Clinton can get it across that they will as McCain combine caution with compassion for teh Iraqi people they might do much better in the polls.

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» Well said! nm Posted by: Timba
» Bullshit alert! Posted by: sausage
» Yes indeed bullshit alert! Posted by: Swedish liberal
» RE: Yes indeed bullshit alert! Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Yes indeed bullshit alert! Posted by: mkdelta69
» So why do you not live in China? Posted by: Swedish liberal
» VIETNAM IS A F**G TOTALITARIAN STATE Posted by: Swedish liberal
» RE: VIETNAM IS A F**G TOTALITARIAN STATE Posted by: left_libertarian
McCain's Warmongering
Posted by: Roy Eidelson on Mar 12, 2008 3:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The manipulation of public sentiment has been a key part of the White House’s entire Iraq war and occupation enterprise, so we should not be surprised to see it play an important role in Senator McCain's electoral strategy. For those interested in a psychological analysis of this warmongering, I have recently completed a 10-minute online video entitled “Resisting the Drums of War.” It examines how the Bush administration’s messaging targets five core concerns that often govern our lives--concerns about vulnerability, injustice, distrust, superiority, and helplessness. The video describes these warmongering appeals and offers suggestions for how to counter them. It’s available for viewing HERE.

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The whole thing is probably moot
Posted by: colinmeister on Mar 12, 2008 4:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The real question is not whether McCain Wants to stay in Iraq for 100 years, or "Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran", it is whether the United States can afford to fight any wars. With the economy in free fall and the dollar in the toilet, where is the money going to come from?

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» You have the money for war? Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Time to join the War Resisters League Posted by: thistleblower
McCain loses on the character issue
Posted by: Democritus on Mar 12, 2008 4:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If voters think as Ira Chernus does, that character matters, then McCain loses. Remember that McCain was one of "the Keating five," who tried to bail out his buddy, Charles Keating, in the failed Lincoln Savings scandal. McCain was rebuked by Senate Ethics Committee for that little faux pas.

McCain's latest scandal was reported in the NY Times, telling of the favors he lavished on his lobbyist friends--the ones who contributed to his campaign. This revelation came before McCain said he never took money from special interests.

Then there were the stories from other POWs about McCain's being called "Songbird" for his collaboration with his North Vietnamese captors during his 5 and a half years as a POW. Perhaps these stories have little merit, but where there's smoke, there is usually a little fire.

With respect to who can "handle" the war in Iraq, McCain has said that he agrees with George W. Bush and the latest "surge." What that surge has done is to create a status quo in which we have three sorts of armed militias--Sunni, Shia, and Kurd--that are just itching to have a go at one another as soon as each thinks it might get the upper hand. At the same time, our occupation forces are hunkering down while the puppet government in Iraq siphons $12 billion a month from our treasury for maintaining our troops there.

So what McCain is proposing in supporting Bush's policies is a road to financial ruin for no benefit whatsoever, and the Iraqi oil money which was supposed to go toward rebuilding Iraq is now contributing to a surplus in the Iraqi treasury.

If that weren't bad enough, there is the question of McCain's bellicose stand against Iran. What the American electorate has to be told--over and over, apparently--is that a McCain presidency will allow him a "do over" with Iran. Judging from the disaster that was Iraq, the coming disaster with Iran will surely put a last nail in the coffin of American imperialism. Would McCain be smarter than that? Not likely. Remember that he graduated fifth from the bottom of his class at Annapolis.

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Why do we fight wars for oil? Let's recap and connect those dots?
Posted by: maxpayne on Mar 12, 2008 5:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is it all that "cheap" junk food which contains a lot of chemicals such as high fructose corn syrup, partially hydrogenated oils, msg, etc ... which require a lot more petroleum to manufacture than even preserving healthy produce?

Is it America's lust for driving those big-butt vans and SUVs and to keep that macho/individualist attitude?

And what about the defunding and stipulations forced against alternative renewables such as solar and wind or even the illegalization of Industrial Hemp which is not only renewable but does not deplete and has 25000 industrial uses?

And what about all those silly gizmos out there such as IPods and those gigantic HDTVs you can't resist?

Yes, they all require lots and lots of petroleum to manufacture. The rising crude oil prices that have been going on long term and the fact that America REFUSES to consider putting those alternative renewables to work by buying into the lies of Big Oil, Chemical, Agri, etc ... is what is keeping this country occupying one oil-rich nation after another. Well, I'm happy to be conserving and looking for petroleum-free alternative products which I'm surprisingly able to get a 90% success at. Or maybe I'm too frugal like our ancestors before the after WWII folks?

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» Share your backyard bounty Posted by: thistleblower
» RE: Share your backyard bounty Posted by: rainingwolf
McCain is as warhawkish as u can get!!!
Posted by: xvictor on Mar 12, 2008 5:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So why do folks foolishly believe he's a peace candidate?? I just don't get it. Is there something in the water????>

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War Based On LIES Is Already Lost
Posted by: left_libertarian on Mar 12, 2008 5:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Iraq War can't be won. It was based on lies. A propaganda campaign orchestrated by the Bush Administration sold fear to the gullible American public.

Iraq
Had no WMD
No ties to al-Quida
Had nothing to do with 9/11
And to think that its military was a direct threat to the US is not only a joke, but an insult to the greatest military the world has ever know.

So to say, as McCain believes, that the war can be 'won:'it's already lost. The lies become a sad truth, Bush and Cheney are free because the Democratic Party does not have a sense of justice and the courage to impeach these criminals

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Personally, I see no scenario for improvement
Posted by: smendler on Mar 12, 2008 5:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The election of Clinton *or* Obama will push the more paranoid wingnuts over the edge into armed violence, and the government's heavyhanded reactive crackdown on them will push the less paranoid ones over to join them. President McCain would accelerate the construction of the corporate national security state and squash dissent. Right now I don't see any way out of the impending dark. I see the dawn on the other side, sure, no question -- but between here and there I see only a long, *long* night.

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Fear and Faith.
Posted by: douglashoyt on Mar 12, 2008 6:10 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe most people see it like this:

"I would rather have Obama on my basketball team, Hillary on my debate team, but McCain should run the National Security Team."

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» I sure wouldn't want McCain Posted by: Ellie1
SO DO WE JUST CAVE IN TO A PERMANENT STATE OF WAR
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Mar 12, 2008 6:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because if Mc Cain gets elected that's what he wants. Granted that's what the new president will inherit, but that doesn't mean we should settle for 100 yrs. McCain has a short fuse and the same stubborn streak as Bush. His image is contrived and he is presented as flawless and the model citizen. In fact he's mediocre and not qualified to be the president. I used to lke him. but but anymore. Thanks, ANNA

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Winning
Posted by: QCao009 on Mar 12, 2008 6:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Single issues(war, economy, health care) are great for short ads and slogans and they are more appealing to voters. However, they seldom reflect the capacity, the passion and the integrity of a true leader.

McCain talks about "no surrender", but his party surrendered in Vietnam and spun it with our tacit agreement, the Chomsky crowd included. The truth is others have always paid and continue to pay for our so-called victories: the Vietnamese killed, the Iraquis killed, the Afghans killed, the young Americans killed and those walking the streets now homeless and broken and a threat to a civil society because we are not treating them with any civility.

A true leader needs to talk about winning the peace. S(he) can appeal to the voters in a very different way by connecting the dots between a failing economy and a duped war(one we have been tricked and trapped by Iran and our ennemies to enter). A true leader can talk about a global economy and an American economy that can thrive on collaboration and competition and not just shopping and cheap gas.

It is fascinating to watch a young man grow old. A young Bill Clinton was once able to do both: be precise and be concise, talk about one issue and string many issues together. May be Senator Obama will grow into that leadership. So far, a plan of withdrawing and attacking McCain is just not enough on this issue. It simply reflects our shallowness. The Bush/Cheney presidency has really lowered our standard of leadership. Our idea of what a winner is has made all of us losers.

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» RE: Winning; QCao009 Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Winning through truth Posted by: Itsthewater
Handing a campaign to the other side
Posted by: LeeAnnG on Mar 12, 2008 6:38 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hillary Clinton's contention that McCain is more qualified to become president than Obama hands one more issue to the republican camp. As has been noted on progressive sites and some corporate media, if Obama is the democratic nominee, the McCain campaign can bring out "even Obama's democratic rival understands that Senator McCain is a better candidate to protect Americans."

If Clinton wins the nomination, the thrust is more likely to be "if Senator Clinton can't even be loyal to her own party, how can she be trusted to have the integrity is takes to be president?"

Clinton's lack of character, her need to win at all costs, and her poor judgement just might be the final straw needed to help the democrats snatch defeat from the jaws of victory again.

I had planned to vote for any democrat, even if I didn't agree with that person's entire platform. Hillary Clinton makes it hard to do that. She has undermined her opponent to the point of appearing to support the other party's candidate. I have no respect for her now, and I have less and less hope that there will be a democrat in the White House next year.

This article is a clear indication to me that Clinton's fearmongering ads and attacks on Obama's competence have the potential to be absolutely devastating to the democrats. I agree with a poster above who said that many Americans are not opposed to the war on principle or because it's illegal imperialism based on lies. Many just don't like it because we are losing; these people would change their minds if their perception was that we were winning. That would explain why the "success" of the "surge" has increased approval ratings of the war.

For awhile it seemed that the democrats might pull off a victory, but that becomes more doubtful every time Clinton uncovers a new campaign tactic. One can only hope that Pennsylvania goes to Obama and she recognizes that she has lost. The former is possible, the latter unlikely.

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» Clinton is only loyal to Clinton Posted by: chief of okeefe
» RE: Handing a campaign to the other side Posted by: dangerouslysane
The Iraq war is a failed strategy from the get go
Posted by: surfreality on Mar 12, 2008 6:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Iraqi invasion was billed as "The central front on the war on terror". Yet Bush/Cheney took their eyes off the ball in Afghanistan, Al Qaeda and Osama to build a gas station in Iraq. The resulting insurgency became a recruiting magnet for Jihadists and a war lab for them to practice killing Americans. Much like how Afghani Jihadists sharpened their skills against the Russians. The fall out from their education remains to be experienced.
Iran is the beneficiary of this failed strategy as they are seen by the majority of Iraqi Shia as the best protectors of their interests. The Iranian President's recent visit to Iraq was a remarkable contrast to that of President Bush.
Bush had to practically sneak in...
The surge is keeping the Iraqi warring factions apart to some degree for now, but it is likely that there will be a horrendous civil war. The question is weather or not we want American troops in the middle of the upcoming bloodbath.
Cost of failed strategy so far: 1000s dead, 3 trillion dollars and world wide enmity.
Value to the jihadists: priceless.

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People see war as good economics
Posted by: daw13 on Mar 12, 2008 6:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article suggests that democrats should shift focus from Iraq to the economy. This could backfire if not done right. Consider: if the U.S. "wins" the war, then it controls the oil and this is good for the economy. Capitalists use of warfare as a means of solving economic problems is as much a part of our cultural ideology as Uncle Sam and apple pie. Democrats must underline not so much the moral failures of Iraq, but the strategic failures. They must explode the myth that winning is even a remote possibility.

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It's the economy...
Posted by: center_peace on Mar 12, 2008 6:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Indeed the key is to turn the Iraq War into an Economy issue. Keep pounding that in over and over till it sticks.

Every time McCain declares "No Surrender", retort "At what cost?".

After every speech, debate or ad, end it with, "And in the time just we've spent talking, the War in Iraq has just cost the next three generations of your family $______. You OWE it to them to stop this war now."

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» RE: It's the economy... Posted by: John Edward
The United States of Scaredy Cats
Posted by: sausage on Mar 12, 2008 6:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems that a sizable majority of Americans live in a fear-ridden world. Fear of rape, robbery, mayhem, murder and terror in general terrifies us. The mainstream media feeds us a daily dose of bloody gore which we lap up like the ghosts at the shore of the River Styx.

We have already saddled outselves with guilt over an impending bloodbath should American ground forces leave Iraq; unleasing a torrent of suicide jacket-wearing al Qaeda terrors on the world like a whirlwind of evil jinn. Improbable images of hook-nosed demons bombing
sports stadiums and poisoning water supplies are ladled up to us in our newspapers, television and radios.

With images like that dancing in our collective pinheads, perhaps Senator John "He's a war hero" McCain's call for the United States staying 100 years in Iraq isn't such a bad idea after all. We've kept the Germans in check for sixty years and maintained the peace on the Korean peninsula for fifty...so 100 years in Iraq,eh?

To paraphrase comedian George Carlin, that's bullshit and it's bad for you.

Rather than heeding a "war hero" or our own national guilt over the bloodbaths and acts of genocide American inflicted upon itself and foreign peoples in the past, when it comes to Iraq, we must heed the words of M.K. Gandhi to Lord Louis Montbattern on the eve of Indian partition:"You must face the bloodbath and accept it."

It is time we, the American people, stopped being the most cowardly people on the planet who hide their unwarrented fears behind military bombast and threats of nuclear destruction. No more United States of Scaredy Cats.

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OCCUPATION--OCCUPATION--OCCUPATION
Posted by: kirkmuse on Mar 12, 2008 7:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The war in Iraq is over we won! We are now occupying Iraq. Occupations cannot be won or lost. Who is going to surrender and sign the peace treaty?

All military occupations end by the occupiers going home. It's time to end the occupation and bring our troops home.

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The Power of Nightmares : The Rise of the Politics of Fear
Posted by: opmoc on Mar 12, 2008 8:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it rather surprising that this documentary actually got shown on the BBC. The official government censor must have been on holiday or asleep at the time. I would be amazed if its been shown on US TV.

google video

wiki description

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War A'Plenty
Posted by: QQOblivion on Mar 12, 2008 9:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If McCain wins and continues the Iraq war, and gets us into new additional wars in Iran and elsewhere, then this will not only cost America money, it will cost America lives. Hey, young people. Don't want to get drafted? Then register to vote, and vote for whomever the Democrat nominee is in November. Yeah, both Hillary and Obama are pro-war, but not like McCain is.

By the way, with all these coming wars, we may very likely not be fighting all of them "over there". The US may, for the first time in a long time, be fighting a couple of these wars on US soil. You've been warned.

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The way-too-old warmonger is the biggest threat to
Posted by: kentigereyes@yahoo.com on Mar 12, 2008 9:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the planet if he gets elected. I'm no fan of hrc/slick willy or BO but the United States of Arrogance needs to get out of Iraq and Afghanistan NOW!, TODAY!, IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!! This country is being destroyed by the despicably evil "w"/DICKY regime with it's presence in the Middle East and the jerk mccain talks of being there for 100 years. Give me a break USA, WAKE THE ____ UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ken

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What does the wayback machine say?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Mar 12, 2008 9:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Assuming it hasn't all been rewritten by Orwellian agents of the Ministry of Truth, we can go back to 2002 and 2003 and see what everyone had to say about the war:

Barak Obama, 2002:

"That’s what Im opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

Now let me be clear: I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity. He’s a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences.

I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the middle east, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of Al Queda.

I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars."


Hillary Clinton, 2002:

In an October 2002 speech on the Senate floor, Clinton said that if left unchecked, Hussein "will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."

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I call bullshit on the statistics.
Posted by: Illiteratilumen on Mar 12, 2008 9:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the first things you learn in statistics is that they can mean whatever you want them to mean if you present it properly.

Anyone who has ever done a Zogby poll can tell you that the questions are often non-specific and very often leading. Few of them allow for free-form answers and instead force you to choose one of five answers, neither of which capture any sort of complexity.

For instance, if I "somewhat oppose" the occupation in Iraq instead of "strongly oppose" do I actually mostly support it? Lets say the poll concludes that "Opponents of the war support John McCain". Do those war opponents include those that "somewhat oppose" the war or only those that are "strongly opposed"? Tough to say unless you can actually look at the raw data and the logic used to draw conclusions.

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Economy
Posted by: BCcovers on Mar 12, 2008 10:39 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most recessions in recent history only last for 2-3 quarters. Meaning that we could already be on our way to recovery by the time the fall rolls around. If things are getting better, and the Democrats continue to focus on the economy getting bad they could be framed as the "doom and Gloom", cut and run party by McCain. Relying on a bad economy to win the election is a bad plan and selfish in nature. What the Democratic candidate must do (whichever one it may be) is reaffirm their Iraq stance and then come more to the center on social issues. Democrats have misinterpreted the public's displeasure with the war with a desire for socialism. If they continue to push this rhetoric, they are toast. People would rather have minimal interference in their own lives and status qou with a distant war going on; then an outright change in the character of our nation. People are willing to allow the war to continue when faced with the choice of extreme change and socialism. That is why, while he has a good base within his own party, Barack wouldn't stand a chance in the general election; his history and voting records do not jive well with the rest of the nation.

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» RE: economy Posted by: dangerouslysane
Dems get what they deserve
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Mar 12, 2008 11:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dems are getting exactly what they deserve by their capitulation on 9/11. Go on believing your government loves you. Go on believing that some of the most intelligent people out there are just kooks because of what they say about 9/11. It's your right to live in denial, but dont expect to win any debates against the neocons if you play on their terms. It's easy to win when you just ignore all opposing facts and label your opposition as conspiracy theorists.

I am glad democrats are getting what they deserve. I hope it continues until they finally understand how futile it is to keep lying to themselves.

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» right ON Posted by: realtruther
All
Posted by: rsmohio on Mar 12, 2008 11:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
these statistics are wonderful, but the only candidate to vote for is the one who says that he/she is pulling out as soon as possible. Of course that statement is perfect for politicians because of its vagueness. I wish one of them would come out and say that it's going to be his/her first order of business. I'm afraid that I'm living in a fool's paradise in this regard.

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Getting Out of Iraq
Posted by: rafey on Mar 12, 2008 12:16 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It took on a few months to train our soldiers to begin our fight in WWII. It takes only 6 months to train our soldiers currently to defend our nation (although we have not had to do any real defending since WWII ...we have mostly been fighting other people's wars). So why does it take so many years to train a single Iraqi? Obviously, it doesn't, so that is _not_ the problem, is it? Additionally, we were outnumbered an estimated 10 to 1 in Vietnam and the Chinese were planning on doubling that number over the following two years(they had access to a virtually unlimmited population of soldiers). Although we were duped into going into war there, we were smart to get out when we did or we would have paid very, very, very dearly !!!

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The Wrong Question
Posted by: aonghus36 on Mar 12, 2008 1:15 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the question would be who would be more likely to conduct and promote war better, naturally the answer would be, amongst the available choices, John McCain, every time. But, isn't a better question, "Which candidate will likely conduct and promote peace better?" The answer would be, amongst the available choices, Barack Obama, every time. Let's learn to ask the right questions.

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McCain Babbles And Wets Himself
Posted by: bcgirl125 on Mar 12, 2008 2:06 PM   
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According to TBR News website. Yet another Repug candidate with obvious brain damage, just like Reagan and Bush Jr.

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2818.htm#001

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amarilloeldo
Posted by: amarilloeldo on Mar 12, 2008 2:26 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author's evidence is strong and he's looked at this from several angles. He's missed the larger view. All of which the voters might do, as well. Obama alone is the man with the talent to show us a larger picture.

If experience is the important factor, McKain appears to be strongest, although quite removed from foreign affairs. If we fear the image of us running home from Iraq with our tail between our legs, then Mc Kain probably looks b