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War on Iraq

Hillary Clinton Can't be Trusted on Iraq

By Stephen Zunes, Foreign Policy in Focus. Posted December 13, 2007.


Clinton's position on Iraq is almost indistinguishable from Bush's.
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Public opinion polls have consistently shown that the majority of Americans -- and even a larger majority of Democrats -- believe that Iraq is the most important issue of the day, that it was wrong for the United States to have invaded that country, and the United States should completely withdraw its forces in short order. Despite this, the clear front-runner for the Democratic Party nomination for president is Senator Hillary Clinton, a strident backer of the invasion who only recently and opportunistically began to criticize the war and call for a partial withdrawal of American forces.

As a result, it is important to review Senator Clinton's past and current positions regarding the Iraq War. Indeed, despite her efforts in response to public opinion polls to come across as an opponent of the war, Hillary Clinton has proven to be one of the most hard-line Democratic senators in support of a military response to the challenges posed by Iraq. She has also been less than honest in justifying her militaristic policies, raising concerns that she might support military interventions elsewhere.

Pre-War Militarism

Senator Clinton's militaristic stance on Iraq predated her support for Bush's 2003 invasion. For example, in defending the brutal four-day U.S. bombing campaign against Iraq in December 1998 -- known as Operation Desert Fox -- she claimed that "[T]he so-called presidential palaces ... in reality were huge compounds well suited to hold weapons labs, stocks, and records which Saddam Hussein was required by UN resolution to turn over. When Saddam blocked the inspection process, the inspectors left." In reality, as became apparent when UN inspectors returned in 2002 as well as in the aftermath of the invasion and occupation, there were no weapons labs, stocks of weapons or missing records in these presidential palaces. In addition, Saddam was still allowing for virtually all inspections to go forward at the time of the 1998 U.S. attacks. The inspectors were withdrawn for their own safety at the encouragement of President Clinton in anticipation of the imminent U.S.-led assault.

Senator Clinton also took credit for strengthening U.S. ties with Ahmad Chalabi, the convicted embezzler who played a major role in convincing key segments of the administration, Congress, the CIA, and the American public that Iraq still had proscribed weapons, weapons systems, and weapons labs. She has expressed pride that her husband's administration changed underlying U.S. policy toward Iraq from "containment" -- which had been quite successful in defending Iraq's neighbors and protecting its Kurdish minority -- to "regime change," which has resulted in tragic warfare, chaos, dislocation, and instability.

Prior to the 2003 invasion, Clinton insisted that Iraq still had a nuclear program, despite a detailed 1998 report by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), subsequent studies that indicated that Iraq's nuclear program appeared to have been completely dismantled a full decade earlier, and a 2002 U.S. National Intelligence Estimate that made no mention of any reconstituted nuclear development effort. Similarly, even though Iraq's chemical and biological weapons programs had been dismantled years earlier, she also insisted that Iraq had rebuilt its biological and chemical weapons stockpiles. And, even though the limited shelf life of such chemical and biological agents and the strict embargo against imports of any additional banned materials that had been in place since 1990 made it physically impossible for Iraq to have reconstituted such weapons, she insisted that "It is clear ... that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."

In the fall of 2002, Senator Clinton sought to discredit those questioning Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Vice-President Dick Cheney, and others who were making hyperbolic statements about Iraq's supposed military prowess by insisting that Iraq's possession of such weapons "are not in doubt" and was "undisputed." Similarly, Clinton insisted that Secretary of State Colin Powell's February 2005 speech at the UN was "compelling" although UN officials and arms control experts roundly denounced its false claims that Iraq had reconstituted these proscribed weapons, weapons programs, and delivery systems. In addition, although top strategic analysts correctly informed her that there were no links between Saddam Hussein's secular nationalist regime and the radical Islamist al-Qaeda, Senator Clinton insisted that Saddam "has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members."

The Lead-Up to War

Though the 2003 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) on Iraq was inaccurate in a number of respects, it did challenge the notion of any operational ties between the Iraqi government and Al-Qaeda and questioned some of the more categorical claims by President Bush about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (WMD). However, Senator Clinton didn't even bother to read it. She now claims that it wasn't necessary for her to have actually read the 92-page document herself because she was briefed on the contents of the report. However, since no one on her staff was authorized to read the report, it's unclear who could have actually briefed her.


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See more stories tagged with: hillary clinton, election08, iraq

Stephen Zunes is a professor of politics at the University of San Francisco and Middle East editor of Foreign Policy In Focus. He is the author of Tinderbox: U.S. Middle East Policy and the Roots of Terrorism (Common Courage Press, 2003).

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Let me count the ways...
Posted by: Xynyx on Dec 13, 2007 1:16 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hillary Clinton is pretty much guaranteed to disappoint us all if she wins the election, and could possibly lose the election if she gets nominated.

Remind me again why we're paying so much attention to her. Oh, that's right, it's the money.

Hey everybody... raise your hands if you give a damn what rich people think.

(Crickets)

That's what I thought.

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» RE: Let me count the ways... Posted by: willymack
Wonder if Hillary Clinton thinks waterboarding is "like swimming"?
Posted by: Dboy on Dec 13, 2007 3:01 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
GWEN IFILL: Do you think that waterboarding, as I described it, constitutes torture?

SEN. KIT BOND: There are different ways of doing it. It’s like swimming, freestyle, backstroke. The waterboarding could be used almost to define some of the techniques that our trainees are put through, but that’s beside the point. It’s not being used.

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This Article Distorts and Omits
Posted by: Ben Sen on Dec 14, 2007 9:46 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's surprising the author doesn't claim Clinton is a neo-con--even if he comes close.

He fails more than anything else to take into account the various "conditions" at the time she voted, and the fact that she, unlike the other candidates, had the misfortune to actually be in a position where she had to vote in the Senate, knowing she was running for the Presidency.

The hysteria following 9/11 is conveniently forgotten and the fact that at the time the public was under the impression Saddam had WMD's and the will to use them. The fact that he didn't is what changed the national perspective and the author is being disingenious not to make that clear.

No, she did not "recant" because she and everybody else knows if she did so she would be called "whaffling" and "opportunistic" and that would have been the end of her candidacy. It is to her credit, especially as the first serious woman candidate, she not be branded weak and not strong enough to choose a military option. Let's get real.

The liberal "base" the author is addressing for the most part can't be counted on to vote, and Clinton is not kidding about wanting to win. Saying she "embraced the right-wing fundamentalist" foreign policy is nothing but inflamatory, and he should know better if in fact he is interested in putting a Democrat in office rather than increasing candidate partisanship.

You can't seperate her from the fact that her husband fought his major war to prevent genocide, and increased American prestige around the world to a new level. The author will probably dismiss this, but I believe it remains at the heart of the moderate perception of Mrs. Clinton--and that is who supports her.

It worked for her husband, and he turned out alright, why can't it work for her?

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» Back up your words Posted by: WhuThe?!?
The Clinton Connection
Posted by: angelofdeath on Dec 14, 2007 1:12 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THE TORRES-VIGNALI CONNECTION is explored in detail in a congressional report that resulted from Pardongate, when revelations surfaced that President Clinton granted clemency for Carlos Vignali Jr. — convicted of drug trafficking and sentenced to 15 years in federal prison in 1995 — along with other convicted criminals and one-time international fugitive Marc Rich. The granting of clemency occurred after payments were made to Clinton’s brother-in-law, Hugh Rodham, the brother of former first lady, New York state senator and 2008 Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton.


Released in March 2002 by the congressional Committee on Government Reform, “Justice Undone: Clemency Decisions in the Clinton White House” details Hugh Rodham’s involvement in the Vignali affair, as well as the long business history Vignali once shared with George Torres.

The report takes to task top L.A. elected officials, including county Supervisor Gloria Molina, then–state Senator Richard Polanco, then–state Assemblyman Antonio Villaraigosa and U.S. Representative Xavier Becerra, among others, for lobbying on behalf of Vignali Jr., in light of his drug conviction and the fact that DEA agents long suspected Vignali Sr. to be involved in drug trafficking — along with Torres. While a member of the California state Assembly, Villaraigosa wrote the first letter on Vignali’s behalf on May 24, 1996.


Saying Hillary Rodham Clinton was a leader who offered a new path, Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa today formally endorsed the New York senator and former first lady in her race to become president of the United States.

Villaraigosa will also serve as one of the four national chairs of Clinton’s campaign for the Democratic nomination for president, it was announced.

At a televised news conference from the UCLA campus in Westwood, Villaraigosa praised Clinton’s approach to domestic issues, particularly education, and her pledge to help end the war in Iraq. The pair earlier toured the preschool at UCLA’s Krieger Center. — La Times

http://mayorvillaraigosasdemons.blogspot.com/

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» RE: The Clinton Connection Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
Hillary Pillary Dock. No Changes On Iraq
Posted by: Tom Degan on Dec 14, 2007 2:50 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And the Democrats are about to make the stupidest blunder since they nominated the unpopular Hubert Humphrey over Eugene McCarthy almost forty years ago (God bless Hubert. He was a good guy but in the wrong place at the wrong time).

Hillary Clinton is the only candidate among the current crop of Dems who is destined to lose eleven months from now. And even if she somehow manages to pull it off (Looking at the parhetic state of the GOP a miracle could happen) it would be business as usual in Iraq. The undeniable fact of the matter is that this woman has atrocious judgement. She must have known the Bush Mob was lying about Saddam's mythical WMD program, but for cynical, political expediancy she voted to give the First Fool the authorization to go in without the constitutionally mandated congressional approval. The single most important vote of her life and she fucking blew it!

Another thing that cannot be ignored: A Clinton nomination in '08 will almost certainly inspire another Nader-like, third party uprising at the polls. That is a chance the Democrats cannot afford to take.

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan

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» RE: Any Dem Elected Will Have to End Iraq Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» Exactly. She blew it, AND Posted by: WhuThe?!?
Picture the future lists of history:
Posted by: Tom Degan on Dec 14, 2007 3:53 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Washington
Adams
Jefferson
Madison
Monroe
Adams
Jackson
Van Bueren
Harrison
Tyler
Polk
Taylor
Fillmore
Pierce
Buchanan
Lincoln
Johnson
Grant
Hayes
Garfield
Arthur
Cleveland
Harrison
Cleveland
McKinley
Roosevelt
Taft
Wilson
Harding
Coolidge
Hoover
Roosevelt
Truman
Eisenhower
Kennedy
Johnson
Nixon
Ford
Carter
Reagan
Bush
Clinton
Bush
Clinton


Nah! That doesn't really reflect too well on us, does it?

Tom Degan

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» RE: Picture the future lists of history: Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» Incomplete Posted by: talkville
RODNOX
Posted by: RODNOX on Dec 15, 2007 6:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
CLINTON CANT BE TRUSTED PERIOD---SHE DOES NOT SUPPORT IMPEACHMENT---DOES NOT STAND IN THE WAY OF ALL THIS ADMINISTRATION DOES----DOES SLEEP WITH CORPORATIONS--DOES NOT SPEAK OUT AGAINST THIS FASCIST ADMINISTRATION--DOES NOT ACCEPT THAT WE--THE USA--CAUSED THIS WHOLE TERRORISIM THING AND THAT WE--THE LARGEST TERRORIST ENTITY THIS SIDE OF ISRAEL--IS BY FAR THE LARGEST CAUSE OF PROBLEMS WORLD WIDE--CLINTON IS POWER HUNGRY--OUT FOR A FEW AND MAKES A CAREER OUT OF AVOIDING THE TRUTH---SHE SUPPORTS ALL THE WRONG ISSUES--FREE TRADE---WESTERN DOMINANCE--SO CALLED FREEDOM---WHEN SHE DENOUNCES THIS ADMINISTRATION FOR ALL ITS DONE--HERE AND ABROAD--THEN I MIGHT CHANGE MY TUNE

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» Her health care plan is a sham Posted by: bthespoon
Verbal Pandering and Triangulation
Posted by: NoPCZone on Dec 19, 2007 1:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am so tired of Hillary Clinton I could scream. What she says and what she does are in no way related. Her voting record would do a Repugnican proud even as she espouses progressive talking points.

Actions have consequences and her judgement on all things Bush have been very poor indeed. Despite her claims, being "First Lady' is not experience for the Presidency. The one time she was handed the ball, the Healthcare initiative, she got her clock cleaned and fueled the 1994 NeoCon takeover of Congress.

Despite the fact that I cannot stand her and do not trust her to deliver the goods, her record stinks. It flat out reeks. Not only should she not be President, I doubt she should be a Senator. New York could do much better.

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Joe Lieberman in Drag
Posted by: AlexLawyer on Dec 19, 2007 2:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The real Hillary Clinton has been kidnapped and is being held at a black site. Bill is secretly living with Monica and the candidate being passed off as Hillary is none other than Joe Lieberman in drag. If their politics don't convince you, maybe the hairdo will.

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» RE: Joe Lieberman in Drag Posted by: colinmeister
» $10 says Posted by: WhuThe?!?
I will not support anyone who voted for this illegal war.
Posted by: SteveO on Dec 19, 2007 5:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Especially Mrs Clinton. I have watched her positioning herself for this run since she "won" her Senate seat. She appears not to have any principles of own, only what the focus groups tell her she should have.

Like Nixon in Vietnam, I think she would keep us there because she thinks it would get her re-elected in 2012.

I don't know who tinkered with the latest New Hampshire poll, but her sudden 10 point surge reeks of Carl Rove style politics.

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Her health care plan is a sham too
Posted by: bthespoon on Dec 19, 2007 5:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
More Corporate Welfare for Health Insurers, not so much Health Care for Americans, but at our expense. Trust me I've done a ton of homework on the health care issue, read every word they've all put out on the subject, and am trying to warn as many people as possible not to fall for more of the same. Add Barak in there too, and every Republican. Sheesh.

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» Any comments on Kuchinich's Posted by: WhuThe?!?
curtrock
Posted by: curtrock on Dec 19, 2007 6:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The headline alone tells the real story here...Hillary is just as bad as Dubya...greed, oil, strategic location, public eavesdropping, nafta, cafta, outsourcing, presidential power...it all equals more of the same. It's a wonder she doesn't become Joe Lieberman...First, I agree with the comment below; that a Hillary nomination will make her more likely to lose the presidency...if you think Dubya is polarizing; Hillary as president could lead to class rioting...I'm a life long Democrat and am absolutely miffed that Hillary is campaigning on 'experience' while Joe Biden has been in Congress since 1973. Get off the Hillary bandwagon, nominate a true contender and win this thing!

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DOES THIS MEAN BUSH IS OFF THE HOOK ?
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Dec 19, 2007 7:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The presidential candidates are taking the heat for a war that was planned before Bush/Cheney got into office. No pressure is being put on the president and most of the time we don't know where Cheney is. They have almost a year left in office. Except for an occasional 'veto', there is no plan. They aren't being pressed for one. Instead, people who haven't even been elected yet are being pressed for answers. Bush & Cheney get a pass. Which is exactly what they want. Thanks, ANNA

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» going, going, gone! Posted by: hurricane hugo
If it worked before
Posted by: Southern Gal on Dec 19, 2007 9:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hillary is running for office. Figuring out what the corporate donars, the Pentagon, and the military industrial complex want is hard work. She is a politician and politicians tend to fall back on what worked before. She will listen to those strategists who worked on getting Bill into office and helping him stay in office for two terms and to those who have the most support and money in the Washington establishment. As awful as the Iraq occupation is, it is the one thing that can open the door to new and more progressive leadership. Hillary apparently does not see or recognize that possiblity.

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Hillary cannot be trusted on anything
Posted by: nfamous on Dec 19, 2007 9:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hillary Clinton is such a modern woman. She's so modern in fact that she is indistinguishable from a man. Everything she does is calculated. She has no extemporaneousness or spontaneity at all. She's probably planned the rest of the times she and Bill will sex in their lives and it's probably under ten.

Kidding aside, I don't like her. She is no different from Bush. She thinks white people should be able to plunder other people's countries just because we have more weapons. That is evil incarnate. Most women don't watch the news so they don't know. They see her trying to be all folksy at these local gatherings and are going to go right out and continue to make most of their lives miserable by voting for a female dictator that lies well.

Make no mistake Barack is only a hair better but Hillary gives women a bad name. Nothing about her is womanly. She has no compassion, no empathy, no tenderness, no femininity. There is nothing wrong with a woman being a woman in a position of authority. It is exactly what this country and world needs right now, not another corporate, cold-hearted man in woman's clothing with penis envy.

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hello!
Posted by: kirapayne on Dec 19, 2007 9:32 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush
Clinton
Bush
RODHAM!
(have the decency!)

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» Uhhh.. Posted by: WhuThe?!?
Liar liar, pants on fire
Posted by: xbj on Dec 19, 2007 10:18 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just got a Hillary campaign brochure in the mail that said the very first thing "I WILL END THE WAR IN IRAQ STARTING A PHASED TROOP DEPLOYMENT WITHIN 60 DAYS IN OFFICE."

When the fuck has Bush said anything remotely like that? On the contrary, the sick bastard wants troops there FOR FIFTY YEARS. Like Korea. Coincidentally, until THE TIME THE OIL RUNS OUT.

You Hillary Haters never cease to amaze me with your endless lying bullshit. Really, you should form your own club.

Call it The ROVE Fanclub. Because that's exactly where all this endless bullshit spews from. Talk about victims that should know better.

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» Small minds, Posted by: OldRedleg
» It's not a moot point Posted by: OldRedleg
» RE: Liar liar, pants on fire Posted by: jonnie rae
Proverbial
Posted by: saltoafronteira on Dec 19, 2007 10:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In my country there's a popular expression that means more or less this: the flies change but the shit allways stays the same.
That fits like a glove in clinton's profile.
Nothing but another fly pouring its eggs in the same good old shit.
In fact, it only proves that democratic institutions are rotten, in the USA as well has in Europe. Everyone who has the least chance to get to power is either corrupted since the beginning, or corrupted in the process and, if corruption doesn't succed, his character, or even his person, is destroyed.
Anyway just think of this:
Are you prepared to switch from oil to other energies in a matter of months?
You should, because the day you leave Irak, and if venezuela closes its pipe-lines to you, you will be in big trouble because you are massive consumers in your day by day life.
Except, of course, if you start making it from coal, or those sands in canada or even, with more nuclear plants.
So, the issue is; either Irak, or Coal and sands and more nuclear. Choose !
There is a third one, but have you got the guts to fight for it ?
Its called renewable energies, anywhere you can pick them.
That way, not even clinton will have (inner) arguments.

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» RE: Proverbial Posted by: richholland
Hillary CAN be trusted
Posted by: chlamor on Dec 19, 2007 1:17 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She is quite reliable and trustworthy. This must be understood. The next step is to understand whose interests she represents and will defend. Like the entirety of the Democratic party she will indeed reliably continue with the Corporate Agenda every step of the way. She can be trusted 100% to continue with the Military Expenditures and forays.

So let me repeat:

The Function of the Democratic Party in the American Political System:

The Democratic Party plays an indispensable role in society's political machinery. This doesn't mean it has any power, in terms of controlling the state or setting policy. It means that without the existence of the Dem Party, the US could no longer maintain the pretense that it's a "democracy." If the Dem Party disintegrated, the US would be revealed for what it really is -- a one-party state ruled by a narrow alliance of business interests.

In terms of defending the general population against the depredations of this business consortium, the Dem Party gave up the ghost in the mid-1960's. Their threadbare act as the "Party of the People" serves not to defend the well-being of the population, but merely to persuade ordinary citizens that within the official political system's framework, there's at least some faint hope for eventual progressive change. Their focus is not so much being on our side, as convincing us that they're on our side -- without the slightest serious examination of what that might entail.

The party's true function is thus largely theatrical. It doesn't exist to fight for change, but only to pose as a force which one fine distant day might possibly bestir itself to fight for change. Thus the whole magic of the Dem Party -- the essential service it renders to the US power structure -- lies not in what it does, but in its mere existence: by simply existing, and doing nothing, it pretends to be something it's not; and this is enough to relieve despair & to let the system portray itself as a "democracy."

As long as the Dem Party exists, most Americans will believe we have a "democracy" and a "choice" in how we are ruled. They will not despair, and will not revolt, as long as they have this hope for "change within the system." From the system's point of view, this mechanism serves as the ultimate safety valve -- it insures against a despairing populace, thus eliminates the threat of rebellion; yet guarantees that no serious change to the system will be mounted, because the Dems weren't designed to play that role in the first place.

Deep In The Heart Of Nowhere

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The Function of the Democratic Party in the Political System Part 2
Posted by: chlamor on Dec 19, 2007 1:19 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Aren't the Dems The Lesser Evil?

The Democrats are not the "lesser evil;" they are an auxiliary subdivision of the same evil. To understand the political system, one must step back and regard its operation as an integrated whole. The system can't be properly understood if one's study of it begins with an uncritical acceptance of the 2-party system, and the conventional characterizations of the two parties. (Indeed, the fact that society encourages one to view it in this latter way, is perhaps a warning that this perspective should not be trusted.)

Any given piece of reactionary legislation is invariably supported by a higher percentage of Republicans than Democrats. Does this show that the Democrats are "less evil?" If one focuses on the noble efforts of the few outspoken dissenters, it's easy to feel that the Democrats are somewhat less evil. But in the larger picture, Democrats invariably submit to what Republicans more ardently promulgate, & the entire range of official opinion thereby shifts to the right. Thus the overall function of Democrats is not so much to fight, as to quasi-passively participate in this ever-rightward-moving process. Just as the Harlem Globetrotters need their Washington Generals to make their basketball games properly entertaining, Republicans need the Democrats for effective staging of the political show.

The Democrats are permitted to exist because their vague hint of eventual progressive change keeps large numbers of people from bolting the political system altogether. Emma Goldman once said, "If voting made a difference, it would be illegal." Similarly, if the Democrats potentially threatened any sort of serious change, they would be banned. The fact that they are fully accepted by the corporations and political establishment tells us at once that their ultimate function must be wholly in line with the interests of those ruling groups.

Doesn't the presence of the Dennis Kuciniches, Cynthia McKinneys, et al "prove" that the Democrats are progressive? No. The Kuciniches and McKinneys are indeed significantly different from the Hillary types -- but there are compelling reasons not to get too excited about them, either. First, they are used by the party as a "Left decoration," simply to keep potential left defectors in tow. Secondly, the party power brokers will NEVER in a million years let the Kucinich-McKinney faction have any real power.

In other words, the very modestly-sized progressive Dem faction is cynically used as a marketing tool by the national party. They are dangled before your eyes to make you think that the Dems are the "lesser evil" (since the Republicans offer no such Left decorations). The existence of a few decent Dems makes no real difference in the overall alignment of the party, and they will never be internally influential. They are a distraction.


Can Progressives "Take Over" the Dem Party?

The argument is often advanced by progressives that they might be able to "take over" the Dem Party just as the Republican Party was supposedly "taken over" by the Religious Right and neoconservatives. This is wishful thinking, and ignores the actual history and character of both parties.

The Republicans were always the party of Wall Street & Northern manufacturing. The Democrats were the party of the Southern slaveocracy. When the national Democrats defied southern racism by passing the Civil Rights Acts in the mid '60's, the southern states bolted, destroying the New Deal coalition. The Republicans profited from this by adapting to southern tastes, values, & religious/cultural conceptions.

Deep In The Heart Of Nowhere

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The Function of the Democratic Party in the Political System Part 3
Posted by: chlamor on Dec 19, 2007 1:20 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But this was in no way out of character for the Republicans. The far right was able to take over the Republican Party because that kind of alliance was always very much in the nature of the Republican Party anyway. It was compatible with, not contradictory to, the big-business nature of the Republican party. Forming an alliance with fascists, racists & religious zealots ADVANCED the big-business agenda.

By contrast, for progressives to take over the Democrats would be an unprecedented departure from the party's character. To understand this, one must first recognize that the sole Dem claim to being progressive is rooted almost entirely in the New Deal, itself a response to a unique crisis in American history. FDR recognized that to avert the very real threat of massive social unrest and instability, significant concessions had to be made to the working class by the ruling class. Government could act to defend the weak, and to some extent to rein in the strong, but this was all in the longterm interests of defending the existing social order.

Before FDR, the Dem Party had no progressive record whatsoever; and after FDR, though the New Deal coalition survived until the mid-1960's, it did so with a record of achievement that was restrained compared to the 1930's. After passing Medicare in 1965 the party reverted to its longterm pattern, and since then, there has again been no progressive record to speak of. The party's progressive social reform was thus concentrated mostly in the 1930's, with some residual momentum lasting until the mid 60's. The party's "progressive period" was thus 1) an exception to the longer term pattern; 2) a response to a unique crisis; and 3) has in any case been dead for over 40 years.

The word "progressive" refers to the commitment of a political party to defend the interests of the working class (aka the overwhelming majority of the population) against the depredations of the ruling elite. Not only is the Democratic Party unable and unwilling to engage in such a fight, it is unwilling even to pronounce the fight's name -- "class warfare." Marx is understandably reviled by capitalists for his annoyingly accurate perception that the capitalist class and the rest of the population have a fundamental conflict of interest. Capital seeks only to maximize its return; return can certainly be enhanced by using the machinery of state to transfer costs and burdens to the weak and vulnerable; thus rule by capital is intrinsically inimical to the basic interests of the majority of the population. There is no escaping this reality.

For the Democratic Party to even begin to serve as a vehicle for opposing the absolute rule of capital, it would at a minimum have to be capable of acknowledging the conflict that exists between the interests of capital and the rest of the population; and of expressing a principled determination to take the side of the population in this conflict.

A party whose controlling elements are millionaires, lobbyists, fund-raisers, careerist apparatchiks, consultants, and corporate lawyers; that has stood by prostrate and helpless (when not actively collaborating) in the face of stolen elections, illegal wars, torture, CIA concentration camps, lies as state policy, and one assault on the Bill of Rights after the next, is not likely to take that position.
Deep In The Heart Of Nowhere

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Weren't Around for Viet Nam
Posted by: Ben Sen on Dec 19, 2007 3:07 PM   
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The NPR newstory I am referring to had to do with K's career before running for President. I say that in my post. My point was that those in the media who knew him best didn't have good things to say about him. If your position is for an immediate pull out I fear we share little common ground anyway. I suspect you weren't around for Nam and missed the slaughter the last time. Also, judging by your tone you don't plan on compromising if your candidate doesn't make it, which he won't. Are you going to blame me for that?

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» RE: Weren't Around for Viet Nam Posted by: aonghus36
Don't Vote For Hillary and Be A Hero
Posted by: Ben Sen on Dec 19, 2007 3:30 PM   
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So if Hillary is the nominee you won't vote. That's makes you the Republican's accomplish.

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Praise the Self-Righteous
Posted by: Ben Sen on Dec 19, 2007 3:38 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I figure somebody goes on like this they have to be a preacher or maybe 25 years old. I came from the generation that actually had a cultural revolution, stopped a war, and made sacrifices like going to jail and being barred from college. As far as I can tell most of you kids are all smoke and mirrors.

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» No it doesn't Posted by: Sil
» Yes, It Does Posted by: Ben Sen
» RE: Yes, It Does Posted by: Sil
This Is Funny
Posted by: Ben Sen on Dec 19, 2007 3:45 PM   
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You have adapted the simplistic moralistic tone of Bush to lay into HRC with little or no recognition of how funny it sounds. i.e. it is how a hothead "reacts" rather then adds something new. If Hillary is nominated are you going to take all your cookies and go back to the farm like the rest of the hotheads?

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Hillary, Obama, Lieberman, Giuliani, Huckabee, etc., All the Same Thing!
Posted by: sofla100 on Dec 19, 2007 4:05 PM   
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Hillary is really no different now on Iraq then Edwards, Obama, Liberman, Giuliani, Huckabee, Romney, and McCain. The only one really any different is Kucinich. All of the above, except Kucinich, have indicated they are not in favor of immediately moving US troops out of Iraq. That includes Obama on his currently stated position. This article makes a little too much of a big deal about the past support given by Hillary to Bush on Iraq. The fact is, even though Obama did not support Bush before the war, essentially he does now, so what is the difference? Now, all the politicos, except Kucinich, are hooked into the so-called "big picture" USA strategic view. In this view, even if going into Iraq was a screw-up, America cannot leave now and have the Iranians move in. This would collapse the paradigm of USA/Israeli control of the Middle East region and its oil supplies. It is really only Kucinich who does not subscribe to this world view. The only real solution then is for Kucinich to run as a third party, as an independent. Otherwise, who will you vote for?, as none of them essentially are much different.

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Hey Zunes, Duh! Did you just figure this out?
Posted by: common intelligence on Dec 19, 2007 5:33 PM   
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Hiliary will screw it all up and Obama.

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A question to those who say "They're all the same"- Can Satan cast out Satan?
Posted by: xbj on Dec 19, 2007 7:50 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A very wise guy once said, when a rabble crowd was screaming at Him "You're no different than they are" (referring to the corrupt political powers of their day) "Can Satan cast out Satan?"

Meaning, of course, if that they were on the same side, those very same powers that be, wouldn't be working to obviously destroy Him. And that only He had the power to cast THEM out. One of the MOST incredible rhetorical questions in all of history that cut both ways.

Something to remember when you think about that interview when a CBS "grip" "acccidentally" loosened a light that was sitting right above Hillary's head. One that surely would have killed her had it hit its mark. And done serious harm to Bill as well. BOTH were frantic. In their haste to put the scare into the Clintons, the Enemy completely lost any credible chance at accusing them of knowing about 9-11 in advance. The least of all the stupid mistakes they made on that day.

Not to mention when you hear of Dennis Kucinich's brother DYING, TODAY, COMPLETELY OUT OF THE BLUE. With "no foul play" evident. Right. Isn't it wonderful how microwave weapons can cause strokes? Ask Harry Reid, one of the lucky recipients. Or any scientist who'll confirm it's quite easy to make a blood vessel explode with microwaves.

But I digress. Can Satan cast out Satan? Something to remember whan you think on the morning of 9-11, when the powers that be made damn sure Bill Clinton would be far out of the country to look complicit and guilty, while the Secret Service made damn sure his daughter was jogging blocks from the WTC as they were hit and coming down.

Evil cannot cast out evil; evil loves itself too much. All battles between so-called evils, all jostlings for power are sham battles.

The battle between the Clintons and the establishment from THE VERY BEGINNING has been a LIFE AND DEATH battle, and I'm really sorry, but anyone that refuses to see that bit of obvious has got Rove-supplied shit for brains.

Look, I'm not some naive waif. I know what the Clintons have done. I know the deals they've made to have a slim chance in hell of occasionally being able to do the right thing for this country and the world. Unlike the enemy, who always does the wrong things.

I also know, from that very wise guy who started this entire conversation in the first place, that THAT IS THE PRICE OF POLITICS AND POWER. It's all through His book, from beginning, to the end.

And why He avoided politics like the plague. Not all of us can be that pure. He knew how it would all come out in the end; we have to go by faith.

I have faith in the Clintons. Would I have made their choices? Not all. But then I would never have entered politics in the first place.

But thank God for those good that do; otherwise this world would have been glowing ash a very long time ago.

And yet may still be.

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» Wasn't it you... Posted by: OldRedleg
» RE: Wasn't it YOU... Posted by: xbj
» RE: Correction Posted by: xbj
Same players at the Table
Posted by: talkville on Dec 20, 2007 1:40 AM   
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The US has taken the torch from the British Empire and embarked once again on furthering that project. No matter who takes the election of 2008, Middle Eastern policies will continue unchanged. Its Oil and Geo-politics - this time for the control not only of regions, but the entire planet.

And though these policies may be named "foreign", they will always contain a "domestic" component. It's bi-partisan, as they like to say. Better to start thinking in terms of an Empire rather than a Republic (fast becoming one of those "quaint" notions Alberto Gonzales likes to think about). Make your vote count, and hold them accountable for your vote. The players at the Main Table will not change.

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Hillary the Chosen one.
Posted by: magus65 on Dec 20, 2007 2:30 PM   
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You have no say in the matter - Hillary will win. She has already been to Bilderburg and anointed. She is your next president by appointment. She must find it seriously frustrating though that she must wait for a sham election before taking office.

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