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War on Iraq

"My Name Used to Be #200343"

By David Phinney, IPS News. Posted April 7, 2007.


An American former Navy soldier and private contractor imprisoned and tortured in Iraq by the U.S. military and falsely accused of "aiding terrorists" warns that our worst fears about Iraq have come true.
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A year ago, Donald Vance learned what its like to be falsely accused by the U.S. military of aiding terrorists. He was held without charge for more than three months in a high-security prison in Iraq, and interrogated daily after sleepless nights without legal counsel or even a phone call to his family.

On Wednesday, the former private security contractor was honored for his ordeal in Washington and for speaking out against the incident. At a luncheon at the National Press Club, Vance received the Ridenhour Prize for Truth-Telling, an award named in memory of Army helicopter gunner Ron Ridenhour who struggled to bring the horrific mass murders at My Lai to the attention of Congress and the Pentagon during the Vietnam War.

Vance was joined by former president Jimmy Carter, who won a lifetime achievement award, and journalist Rajiv Chandrasekaran of The Washington Post who was recognised for his recent book, "Emerald City: Inside Iraq's Green Zone".

As hundreds at the luncheon finished their lobster salad, Vance, a two-time George W. Bush voter and Navy veteran, recounted the events of his imprisonment and the grief of his fiancé and family. They did not know if he was alive or dead, he said. They were already making inquiries to the U.S. State Department on how to ship his body home.

He then drew a wider circle around his ordeal to include the countless others who have been held falsely without charge and denied normal legal constitutional protections under law. "My name used to be 200343," Vance said recalling his prisoner ID. "If they can do this to a former Navy man and an American, what is happening to people in facilities all over the world run by the American government?"

Vance's nightmare began last year on Apr. 15 when he and co-worker Nathan Ertel barricaded themselves in a Baghdad office after their employer, an Iraqi private security firm, took away their ID tags. They feared for their lives because they suspected the company was involved in selling unauthorised guns on the black market and other nefarious activity. A U.S. military squad freed them from the red zone in Baghdad after a friend at the U.S. embassy advised him to call for help.

Once they reached the U.S.-controlled Green Zone, government officials took them inside the embassy, listened to their individual accounts and then sent them to a trailer outside for sleep. Two or three hours later, before the crack of dawn, U.S. military personnel woke them. This time, however, Vance and Ertel, Shield Security's contract manager, were under arrest. Soldiers bound their wrists with zip ties and covered their eyes with goggles blacked out with duct tape.

The two were then escorted to a humvee and driven first to possibly Camp Prosperity and then to Camp Cropper, a high-security prison near the Baghdad airport where Saddam Hussein was once kept. Vance says he was denied the usual body armour and helmet while traveling through the perilous Baghdad streets outside the safety of the Green Zone or a U.S. military installation.

It was not the way the tall 29-year-old with an easy charm and keen mind had expected to be treated. Vance claims that during the months leading up to his arrest, he worked as an unpaid informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Sometimes twice a day, he would share information with an agent in Chicago about the Iraqi-owned Shield Group Security, whose principals and managers appeared to be involved in weapons deals and violence against Iraqi civilians. One company employee regularly bartered alcohol with U.S. military personnel in exchange for ammunition they delivered, Vance said.

"He called it the bullets for beer programme," Vance claimed while relating the incident during an interview this week at a cigar bar just walking distance from the White House.

But his interrogators at Camp Cropper weren't impressed. Instead, his jailers insisted that Vance and Ertel had been detained and imprisoned because the two worked for Shield Group Security where large caches of weapons have been found -- weapons that may have been intended for possible distribution to insurgents and terrorist groups, Vance said.


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David Phinney is a journalist and broadcaster based in Washington, DC, whose work has appeared in The Los Angeles Times, New York Times and on ABC and PBS. He can be contacted at: phinneydavid@yahoo.com.

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It's a war, but everyday planes take off and land safely
Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 7, 2007 1:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is worth remembering that most people are able to travel and work in safety because of these detention facilities. If Bush had not gone in hard, we would have had loads of attacks on passenger air traffic. So it's a bitch that the conditions are not nice, but it is a price worth paying so that thousands of others don't die. Our choices are that starck.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: The only people going... Posted by: sheena2u
» Which war is which? Posted by: HeroesAll
» Nice succinct summary Posted by: HeroesAll
» I don't think so Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: I don't think so Posted by: redstarwraith
» RE: I don't think so Posted by: antu
» RE: I don't think so Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: I don't think so Posted by: lively56
» RE: I don't think so Posted by: blitzmesser
» What is WRONG with you? Posted by: wireup
» Bobsays: Posted by: doctorsquared
» RE: Bobsays: Posted by: antu
» RE: Bobsays: Posted by: blitzmesser
» Travel Safely?? Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: It's a debacle Posted by: sheena2u
» The facts don’t follow Posted by: Lector
» the Garden of Eden Posted by: anonimus1
It's war, but everyday people take off and land successfully BECAUSE BUSH DOESN'T DARE TO 9-11 AGAIN
Posted by: xbj on Apr 7, 2007 3:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Considering all the blatant fuckups he (we're talking about Poppy now, not idiot sonny boy) and his made on that day, including the absolute arrogance and hubris to think that people would be so shell shocked indefinitely that they wouldn't recognize a textbook explosion (as opposed to implosion) scyscraper demolition when they saw it, NO WONDER they haven't attempted another 9-11 again.

Not to mention all the leaked 9-11 Part II plots that were stopped... the nuke in Texas city just being possibly the biggest.

So yeah, anyone that thinks that inflaming the entire Mideast world by acting like Nazis on the rampage made us safer FOR A SINGLE SECOND has got SHIT FOR BRAINS.

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It's not all what it appears
Posted by: IanA on Apr 7, 2007 4:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Speculation perhaps but does no one thinks that the Iraqi-owned Shield Group Security was being used by an American agency military, intelligence or private contractor, to funnel more weapons and ammunition to insurgents, because the insurgency and chaos is both profitable to the contractors, and is the excuse for the Bush administration and the Neocons behind them to continue to de-stabilize the whole region and maintain large troop numbers and bases in Iraq. Was the golden Mosque really destroyed laying charges over hours of curfew by Iraqis. Where British SAS performing normal peace keeping activities when arrested by Iraqi police in possession of explosives and detonators, dressed as Arabs, then to be freed by the army blowing up a police station? What where they really up to? What were they to blow up? Who would have been made to appear the purpetrator? How much is the lying Bush cabal and their war profiteering friends playing two ends to the middle?

We know they don’t give a damn for legality, nor are they seeking any resolution towards speedy withdrawal and Iraqi sovereignty, in fact they are encouraging Saudis to support Sunni insurgent groups against Shiia militia. How much more of the desaster is actually orchestrated by Washigton deliberately attempting to escalate the internal conflict?

They say what goes around, comes around. I certainly hope that the kind of hell the Americans have created in Iraq, may never be visited on their own home country, but seeing the machinations of their stupidity combined with their use of force and greed I doubt they will escape.

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» RE: It's not all what it appears Posted by: edgar_michel
War under contract
Posted by: Urstrly on Apr 7, 2007 4:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What better testimony that the administration thought it could contract out this war to the highest bidder? Who trusts the military to conduct a war any more? I'm glad Vance spoke out, but people should know when they sign on to these highly lucrative contacts that they sign away the protection they might have under a legitimate government operation. And as for Shield, it's hardly "reformed." More like metamorphacized. If we ever manage to stop this war in Iraq, we must scrub down the fascist practices that have thrived as tools of the so-called war on terror.

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» I think he meant 're-formed' Posted by: HeroesAll
Utterly repulsive
Posted by: tiellis on Apr 7, 2007 5:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After reading this utterly repulsive account of this shady criminal fascist regime turning on one of its own in Iraq and subjecting him to the same ILLEGAL detention and abuse they reserve for everyone else they don't like, I am sick at heart. I would like to think that America can recover from this horrific nightmare of a regime, but I have my doubts: when a once-great and widely admired republic completely loses its moral compass and mutates this far into a zombie fascist "death star" empire, murderously stalking the world while mouthing empty platitudes about "freedom and democracy," what hope is left that we will ever recover our guiding legal principles or the respect of the world?

I see nothing but darkness ahead--the incremental, and ever-accelerating collapse of our nation into a morally and economically bankrupt hellhole of surveillance, random mass arrests and torture, rampant corruption, and internecine violence. And when we fall, nobody will pity us.

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» RE: Utterly repulsive Posted by: Zarquan
» RE: Utterly repulsive Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: Utterly repulsive Posted by: andrushka
» RE: Utterly repulsive Posted by: edgar_michel
Hi Drones
Posted by: paschn on Apr 7, 2007 5:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This SOB, who voted 2 times for the bigger SOB, is a typical swine who saw a chance to make a buck off of the victims of this cesspool you call the US. Like a shark attacking one of it's own, swinebush jumped him. And, like the shark biting back, this SOB is suing that SOB. To hell with em both. and all you idiots who still support either of their ilk.
A nation of sheep, led by a cartel of whores, controlled by Israel / big business. Welcome, to the REAL Evil Empire.

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» RE: Hi Drones Posted by: tkwilson
» RE: Hi Drones Posted by: Gma1
» It must suck. Posted by: WhatNow?
» Nyet, Tvarisch. Spagonya noche! Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
follow the leader
Posted by: robmikejas on Apr 7, 2007 6:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
George W. Bush and his war criminal supporters have taken us to the brink of WW3 and are in the position now to engulf the entire world in war and conflagration and destruction. I agree that Iran needs to develop nukes to counter the American threat against their soverenty. If I were an Iranian, I'd be scared shitless every day at the predatory actions of Bush and his personal war making machine as well as Israel and it's nuclear power.

As an American citizen I worry everyday about our damaged and tormented image as it stands in the world today,as well as our inability to speak to the world of peace with any meaning at all. Bush sees it all as a challenge to his masculinity and therefor his natural role as a rich boy bully and cowboy conqueror of the weak. The American Empire is on the march and we the people are reduced to being the victims of an invisible coup with a demented leadership speaking in our names to the world. With even an ounce of humility and tolerance, this juggernaut of death and destruction could be brought under control, but Bush and his followers seek not peace in the world, but rather the "Rapture" and the inherent death required to bring about their goal. If we the people do not rise up soon in absolute condemnation of the Bush death march, we will see our legacy be one of a hated and defeated people and an experiment in democracy gone wrong...and a world unfit for any human progress.

Demand Impeachment now...Make Pelosi put the option back on the table and act upon it now. Send the warmongers out of the sphere of influence and into prison where they belong.

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» RE: follow the leader Posted by: MindyB
We are NOT safer now than before 9/11 and torture won't improve things!
Posted by: HughScott on Apr 7, 2007 6:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I spent the last two years studying post-9/11 aviation security in the United States.

My conclusion: Because of increased worldwide terrorism and continued inattention to airline safety issues by Homeland Security, America's most important transportation system is more vulnerable to Al Qaeda skyjackings, bombings and sabotage than before our national calamity on 09/11/01.

Specifically under George W.'s watch, Homeland Security has not fully and faithfully addressed the following safety issues:

Jetliner cargo not being inspected for explosives
No airport employee screening
No terminal radiation detectors
No passenger profiling
Useless "no-fly" lists
Dangerous carry-on items
Porous national borders
Unguarded airport ramps
Unarmed airline pilots

The vulnerability puts the U.S. economy at great risk of being crippled by Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups. Yet, President Bush asserted in August 2006 that our air transportation system was safer now than before the Twin Towers fell.

He also said gaps in airline security exposed by 9/11 had been closed.

Additionally, on September 10, 2006, Vice President Cheney claimed on NBC's "Meet the Press" that the Bush administration had "done everything possible" to protect U.S. airlines from terrorism.

All three assertions were untrue, as shown by concrete facts, federal documents and other information that I uncovered during my investigation.

For Bush fans and other skeptics, my background includes a combined 40-year career in the Air Force and airline industry as a pilot, classroom teacher, flight engineer, FAA-certified single engine & multiengine flight instructor and Continental Airlines captain.

Besides numerous private planes and training aircraft, I have flown the USAF KC135 tanker, B707, B720, B727, B737, B747 and DC10. I also developed airline crew CBT (computer-based training) for the DC9, L1011, B737, B757, B767 and MD11 aircraft, and have firsthand experience with terrorist tactics as they relate to using liquids for bombing jetliners.

In 1968, while serving as a Continental B720 first officer on a Los Angeles to Denver trip (Flight 25 commanded by Capt. Ken Tiegs), an explosion jolted our aircraft as it descended through 24,000 feet for landing at Stapleton Airport. The detonation occurred in the aft lavatory, caused by a glass jar of gasoline fused by suicidal passenger.

The blast blew open the lavatory door, belched out a huge fireball and filled the cabin with thick smoke. The jetliner was saved by a fast-reacting stewardess sitting on her jump seat next to the lav. Instinctively, she kicked the door shut which smothered the flames.

Because of that terrifying experience, I was alarmed by the foiled United Kingdom airline bombing plot announced by the British on August 10, 2006. I believe the thwarted attack was a wake-up call for Americans to demand a better job of making air travel safe from terrorism by the Bush administration. So far, it has not performed satisfactorily despite politically-motivated, White House word-spinning.

Case at point, the Sep. 25, 2006, TSA rules change that allows each passenger to bring three (3) ounces of fluid aboard their flights. Four terrorists traveling together times three equals 12 ounces of liquid explosive -- more than the gasoline that almost brought down my jetliner 40 years ago.

For more details about airline safety problems including why we have not been attacked since 9/11, visit my investigative website -- King-George.biz -- the only one with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.

Hugh E. Scott, registered Republican, Goldwater conservative and 2004 Kerry supporter.

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» thwarted attack? Posted by: WhatNow?
bobsays is trolling -- it's a put-on
Posted by: bluepilgrim on Apr 7, 2007 9:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No one, even one of the rabid right, can be dumb enough to think that the army imprisoning and torturing an American FBI operative looking into black market distribution of guns in Iraq can make it safer can possibly make it safer to travel or work in the US. One might as well say that making cheese in Switzerland keeps Cleveland safe from crocodiles.

This incident is a fubar, made possible by idiotic policies and practices as part of an immoral fascist invasion and gangsters taking over American politics -- and has nothing whatsoever to do with airplanes.

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» HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Posted by: brasilaron
Wow, Equal Opportunity Torture...
Posted by: Carl Street on Apr 7, 2007 9:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As many Germans who initially supported Hitler's "Law and Order" and "Pre-Emptive Wars" learned to their sorrow they had cut their own throats. But, by the time they learned that lesson they were already in the box cars and on the way to the camps. Hopefully, Americans will not prove to be that ignorant and can learn from the unfortunate experiences of others.

ONLY FOOLS believe that laws are passed to assault the rights of "undesireable others". Your apparent safety is only a temporary accident of history; not some measure of your personal status. Once the laws are on the books it is only a matter of time before you, your religion, your political beliefs, skin color, etc. can also become defined as an "undesireable".

The ONLY truly safe course is to support the rule of law WITHOUT EXCEPTION for all and INSIST that DUE PROCESS and meticulous care for the rights of even those we may fear, loathe, and even hate are respected to the Nth degree. Anything less is gambling with your own future and that of your family.

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» RE: I'll add a quote... Posted by: ateo
Hey Vance, Sorry Yet?
Posted by: MAD on Apr 7, 2007 10:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Vance, a two-time George W. Bush voter and Navy veteran, recounted the events of his imprisonment and the grief of his fiancé and family."

Reap the whirlwind, dipshit . . . It's unfortunate that more Bush voters aren't spirited away and tortured! Welcome to the "New and Improved America", assholes.

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The (laughable) Los Angeles Tower Library threat
Posted by: HughScott on Apr 7, 2007 10:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Based on my experience as a B737 flight instructor, I am convinced the alleged 2002 L.A. Tower Library plot, supposedly planned by Al Qaeda 9/11 mastermind, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, was a Karl Rove concoction. Only an idiot like Bush’s Brain would believe a shoe bomb could be used to breach the cockpit door of an airliner inflight. Yeah, that would work – blowing the nose section off the aircraft!

However, when I completed my safety investigation in 2006, no evidence indicating White House skullduggery had been uncovered. So instead, because Bush took credit for stopping to the Tower Library plot, I used it to show gross dereliction of duty by Homeland Security, starting with the question: Why didn't the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) warn U.S. and international airlines?

The Agency took that precaution with another aerial terrorist threat in 2001. This may be news to some AlterNet readers, but American air carriers were warned by the FAA about possible skyjackings SIX weeks before the Twin Towers fell.

The early alarm was disclosed by the bipartisan 9/11 Commission in a preliminary report that stated:

"Beginning on July 27, 2001, the FAA issued several security directives to U.S. air carriers prior to September 11. In addition, the FAA issued a number of general warnings about potential threats, primarily overseas, to civil aviation. None of these warnings required the implementation of additional aviation security measures. They urged air carriers to be alert."

As part of my airline safety research, I surfed the Internet for FAA documents issued in July 2001 but failed to locate the all-important security directives. But I did discover another alarming report in the Agency archives with the following two pertinent paragraphs:

"Members of foreign terrorist groups and representatives from state sponsors of terrorism are present in the United States. There is evidence that a few foreign terrorist groups have well established capability and infrastructures to support terrorism. In addition, the presence of international extremists in the United States is growing and the potential threat from them is increasing."

"The activities of some of these individual and groups go beyond fund-raising to recruiting individual other persons (both foreign and U.S.) for activities that include training with weapons and masking bombs. Some of these extremists operate in small groups and act without guidance or support from state sponsors. This makes it difficult to identify them or to anticipate and counter their activities."

Although the report was issued in 1997, it remained in the FAA archives. That told me the Agency would have issued security directives in 2002 -- IF it had known about a potential L.A. Library Tower attack. Most certainly the press would've found out and reported the alarming notices, but that never happened. Not even the mayor of Los Angeles, Antonio Villaraigosa, knew about the alleged Library Tower threat.

The archived report I discovered last year also told me someone in the Bush administration had eliminated the July 2001 FAA safety directives. Otherwise, I would've found them in the Agency's files as well.

Most damaging to the White House’s credibility is that fact that U.S. airline pilots were NEVER warned about the Library Tower plot in case Al Qaeda had planned similar operations for other cities. The inexcusable failure can only be explained by two possibilities: (1) gross Homeland Security incompetence and dereliction of duty or (2) for some reason, the plot was deliberately kept secret from cockpit crews, our last line of defense against terrorist skyjackings.

Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- depository of my aviation investigation report.

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The *Real* Reasons for Torture
Posted by: TerryS on Apr 7, 2007 10:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The *Real* Reasons for Torture

Why has the U.S. government decided that torture,
as a matter of policy, should be widely used in Iraq?

The reason *given* is that torture is essential for
obtaining important information. I'm sure the people
doing the torture believe this. Especially since
Fox has been so amazingly effective with 24 in their
pro-torture propaganda.

The Bush administration and the Republican Party
in general have shown over and over again that
they have no interest in truth, real intelligence,
or in actually capturing Osama Bin Laden.

So why the torture?

Two reason:

- Blood-lust among their supporters, who enthusiastically
support torture but who hide behind the justifications
of Jack Bauer (Keifer Sutherland).

- Torture encourages *hatred* of the United States
(and Western ideals), and thus encourages terrorism.
And as we've seen, nothing has been better for the
Republican Party than terrorism.

http://www.coe.int/t/e/sg/sg/speeches/2007/
Zf_13022007_EU_CoE_Quadripartite.asp

"In the aftermath of the bombings, the police were under
tremendous pressure to arrest the perpetrators. Within a
few hours, six men of Irish origin were detained, beaten,
threatened and forced to sign statements which later
resulted in their being sentenced to life imprisonment.
The problem was that they were innocent, and the case of
the Birmingham Six became known as one of the most infamous
miscarriages of justice in the history of the United Kingdom
... the fate of the Birmingham Six became a cause célèbre
and a recruiting pitch for a new generation of terrorists
in Northern Ireland."

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I have a hard time feeling sorry for this guy.
Posted by: WitchyNy on Apr 7, 2007 11:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I bet he voted for Bush.

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» RTFA - Posted by: RoffleTheWaffle
Should Donald Rumsfeld go on Trial for War Crimes
Posted by: leedavis546@msn.com on Apr 7, 2007 11:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I watch vidio's From Deutche Wella,a German Public TV station. this week Their Question of the Week, was Should Rumsfeld stand trial For War Crimes Commited by the our military, in Foriegn prison's being run by the US military. My answer was, I feel this is the only way,we will find out the truth.I know that Rumsfeld will never be punished,but a least we may be able to this from Happening in the Future.

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Impeachment and torture
Posted by: HughScott on Apr 7, 2007 12:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Until yesterday, I was dead-set against impeachment because of the time it would take for the right-leaning Supreme Court to rule on executive privilege. But after seeing Paul Wolfowitz's email to Doug Feith encouraging the fabrication of intel data to support Dick Cheney’s false claim that Saddam and Al Qaeda were connected, the House should begin impeachment hearings ASAP -- with an important caveat. Start with Bush’s lying, draft-dodging, side-talking, brain-dead sidekick.

One more thing: Regarding torture, one of Doug Feith's fascist friends during his tenure at the Pentagon was John Yoo, now a university law professor associated with the neocon front foundation, American Enterprise Institute.

A former member of the Bush “Justice” Department, Yoo publicly argued that no law prevented George W. from ordering the torture of teenaged boys suspected of terrorism, including the crushing of their testicles.

If you disagree with Professor Yoo, call the sadistic bastard at the University of California, Berkeley, phone: (510) 643-5089.

Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz-- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.

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» RE: Impeachment and torture Posted by: willymack
Walks-in-Storms
Posted by: Spock on Apr 7, 2007 12:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Been there, done that - 1978. When I came back from Cuba in 1961, then wrote Castro a letter to inform him that I had been there, trying to kill him, a letter that included photos showing how close I had been, the U.S. retaliated. My defense - basically having to do with international law and killing the citizens of another country without declaration of war - must have been pretty effective. The U.S., in other words, first resorted to IRS, then several outright attempts at murder.

None of this is new. It's just that then it was covert, and out of the public eye; now it's public. Same difference. Bush and Co. will do whatever the hell they please. We're like sheep. Keep telling yourself it's a Nation of Laws.

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» File this one under "Fiction" Posted by: zipper696
» RE: File this one under "Fiction" Posted by: brasilaron
Being cautious is no excuse for being stupid!
Posted by: shhazam4 on Apr 7, 2007 1:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Heavy handed, clumsy and stupid come to mind when reading about the mishandling of these individuals. And using 9/11 references as an excuse for such bumbling actions is unconscionably stupid.

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Our gov't is out of control
Posted by: Dr T on Apr 7, 2007 2:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Adult supervision is needed in Washington. The Bush administration is cutting negative feedback loops and then shrouding the action in a veil of secrecy.

We need to develop a radical center in this country because it's about time we started raising some hell.

Let the revolution begin.

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Let's give the terrorists what they want...
Posted by: Carl Street on Apr 7, 2007 3:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Only fools believe terrorists are interested in hurting them. Actually, they are REALLY only interested in hurting our so-called leaders -- and then, only because these jerks have spent a lifetime raping other countries to make a buck.

What fool would put his A$$ on the line to protect George Bush and his creepy friends from what they so richly deserve???!

Let's give the terrorists what they REAllY want -- pack up George Bush & Company and turn them over to the terrorists to do with whatever makes them happy -- Talk about reality TV!!

I bet within a week gas would drop to 30 cents a gallon and the world would hail us as heroes!

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Herb J
Posted by: Herbert Levinson on Apr 7, 2007 3:23 PM   
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The Evidence Is There: It's Time for Congress to Investigate the Ties Between the Bush Family and Osama bin Laden
By Lucy Komisar, IPS News
How the Bush family's private connection to a dirty offshore bank is the only link between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.

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» RE: Herb J Posted by: sheena2u
Poetic Justice...
Posted by: Carl Street on Apr 7, 2007 3:32 PM   
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1. According to the new MCA security legislation ANYONE who aids and abets terrorism, even unwittingly, is automatically designated an enemy agent and can be arrested, and held without right of habeas corpus, trial, and even tortured, etc. -- INDEFINITELY.

2. ALL studies show that USA adventurism in Iraq/Afghanistan, etc. have INCREASED the threat of terrorism -- in fact, some show our adventurism in these areas has been the best terrorist recruiting tool for terrorists imaginable.

3. Therefore, anyone who has/does advocate(s) USA military incursions is actually aiding and abetting terrorism -- even if unwittingly...

Well, I don't know about you, but I certainly have MY list of suspects -- starting with the White House Staff....

I bet, whiney chicken-shit draft-dodging AWOL Georgie would admit his complicity after less than 2 minutes of waterboarding...

And, think of ALL those volunteers in both the USA and abroad who would dearly love to have Cheney and Rumsfield available for "enhanced interrogation"...

Sounds like I may have finally found a government program I can support...

Talk about poetic justice... :)

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The "torture" inflicted on Vance is something many U.S. personnel go through
Posted by: ateo on Apr 7, 2007 3:37 PM   
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In fact, there are likely people being "tortured" in this manner as we speak at Fairchild Air Force base Washington as a part of their "Land Survival" program (the POW resistance training). The only difference is that those at Fairchild have in the back of their minds the fact that their "torture" is only going to last 2 days. Many different career fields go through that training. Most field intelligence, anyone who flies (pilots and aircrew), SERE naturally, special forces and a few others.

Of course that's only the most basic of "resistance" training in the U.S. military. Special forces etc. go through the serious stuff that makes what happened to Donald Vance look like a joke.

That isn't to say it isn't a crappy experience all around but when I consider that all of the "torture" charges against the U.S. military are things the military does to its own personnel for training I question whether people really know what "torture" is.

Having said that, this is a really bad example of what our government and military becomes during "war time" (or what it can excuse during wartime). People start to act as other people have no rights when they feel their own safety may be even slightly threatened. What can I say? Take it as a lesson of what can happen when you get involved with the beast that is our MIC. The very purpose of the MIC's existence is to trample humanity under its jackboot. Sometimes that will be its own people. Eventually it's going to be all of us.

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Those who justify torture should think about this...
Posted by: Carl Street on Apr 7, 2007 4:43 PM   
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1. Hitler and the Nazis did not START with Auschwitz, Buchenwald, etc. -- they ramped up to it. History shows there is FAR MORE danger of a trend line of currently favorable or semi-favorable circumstances going bad; than there is in a trend line of bad circumstances going good. Just because we are NOT currently at the gates of the train stations and ovens does NOT mean that we should take any refuge or comfort in the present circumstances.

2. One of the reasons the Nazis succeeded for as long as they did in operating their death camps is that they were able to conceal their existence largely because many who could have; SHOULD have known did NOT wish to know. While the Geheim Stats Polezei (GeStaPo) did curtail their revealation in some cases; the sad fact is MOST of the time such direct action was unnecessary -- anyone speaking of them was immediately shouted down by their neighbors as unpatriotic (conspiracy theorist?). To quote one German WWII patriot, "there could NOT be any such camps; for if there were it would be reported in the news". My point is that You and I do NOT and CANNOT know WHAT is REALLY being done. That, in fact, there could be pogroms, death camps, and Guantanamo COULD be an Auschwitz.

3. I wish to avoid any misunderstanding of my position -- I am neither for nor against Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Baptists, Buddhists, etc. etc. I AM in favor or rational and just treatment of ALL members of the human race regardless of their race, particular beliefs (or lack of same); philosophies, etc. Consequently, I abhor any and all injustice and do NOT believe in the popular misguided theory that injustice can be justified by circumstances. To accept this latter false precept would mean that I am NOT opposed to injustice; rather, that only I perhaps place a higher price than average on its implementation. In short , it is hypocrisy and a LIE.

4. ONLY FOOLS believe that laws are passed to persecute others. MAN