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War on Iraq

Vulnerable Helicopters Should Accelerate Iraq Exit

By Stephen Pizzo, News for Real. Posted February 9, 2007.


With the fifth helicopter shot down by Iraqi insurgents in three weeks, Congress must explain to the American people why they should make the sacrifice for more of our soldiers to be killed in those "flying coffins."
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I'm one of those odd people who believes that sometimes that deja vu feeling is real -- that we really have "been here, done this," before. Well I got that deja vu feeling this morning when I read this:

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- An umbrella insurgent group claimed responsibility for downing a U.S. helicopter and "burning it down completely" near Baghdad on Wednesday, according to a claim listed on various Islamist Web sites. ... CNN was unable to confirm the authenticity of the statement from the group, which includes al Qaeda in Iraq. ... It was the fifth U.S. helicopter to go down in Iraq in almost three weeks.

Hmmm, I thought to myself, after all the bad news out of Iraq in recent months, this felt different ... yet the same. It felt important too, more important than the usual news about roadside bombs and Iraqis using electric drills to make holes in their neighbors before beheading them. This bit of news caught my attention in a different, yet familiar way. But why? Why did it feel different, yet somehow the same? And why did I feel this bit of news marked a new, and final, turning point? So I did a bit of research, and lo and behold look what I found. Deja vu-city! We really have been here and done this before. Well not "us" literally, but someone that acted like we are acting now. Here, read this and I'll rejoin you at the other end:

"... Following the deployment, the Soviet troops were unable to establish authority outside Kabul. As much as 80% of the countryside still escaped effective government control. The initial mission, to guard cities and installations, was expanded to combat the anti-communist Mujahideen forces, primarily using Soviet reservists. The Soviet Army was unfamiliar with such fighting, had no counter-insurgency training, and their weaponry and military equipment, particularly armored cars and tanks, were sometimes ineffective or vulnerable in the mountainous environment.

The Soviets used helicopters as their primary air attack force, supported with fighter-bombers and bombers, ground troops and special forces. Of particular significance was the donation of American-made FIM-92 Stinger anti-aircraft missile systems, which increased aircraft losses of the Soviet Air Force. The inability of the Soviet Union to break the military stalemate, gain a significant number of Afghan supporters and affiliates, or to rebuild the Afghan Army, required the increasing direct use of its own forces to fight the rebels. Soviet soldiers often found themselves fighting against civilians due to the elusive tactics of the rebels. They did repeat many of the American Vietnam mistakes, winning almost all of the conventional battles, but failing to control the countryside. (More)

Yep. And instructive as hell, since we know how that superpowers attempt to straighten out a Muslim nation by force ended. But it's not just that, it's not that it ended in failure, but precisely what it was that ended it. What ended it were Stinger shoulder mounted anti-aircraft missiles, ("Manpads") secretly supplied to the Mujahideen by the US. "Its long range and sophisticated guidance made the Stinger highly effective against Soviet airplanes and helicopters, and Stingers were credited with turning the tide of the war in the Mujahideen's favor, according to the Center for Nonproliferation Studies. (More) In all the Soviets lost over 130 helicopters and other aircraft to these deadly accurate little missiles. (See list here)

While George W. Bush may not be a fan of history, some folks are. Apparently among those history buffs are the Iranians. They took note of what it was that caused the once powerful Soviets to cut and run out of Afghanistan. Which brings me back to why I think that bit of news this morning marks the beginning of the end for the US occupation of Iraq -- and why we've suddenly lost five helicopters in less than three weeks. Because, you see, the Iranians have their own versions of the Stinger, and there is the possibility that a country may provide missiles to anti-US insurgents in Iraq. (See also Anza, a series of Chinese developed, IR-guided shoulder-fired surface to air missiles, under licensed production in Pakistan.) That's why this is feels different, yet the same -- different superpower, same solution.

It's not -- no pun intended -- rocket science. All you have to do is ask yourself this: What was the only tactical advantage the Soviets had over the Mujahideen? Answer: Air power. Except for the lack of air power, the Mujahideen held every other tactical advantage. First, they lived there, while the Russians were just heavily armed visitors. Also, they knew the terrain like the backs of their little brown hands, while Soviet troops were, quite literally, lost much of the time.


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See more stories tagged with: congress, iraq, helicopters, shoulder-fired missiles, insurgents

Stephen Pizzo is the author of numerous books, including Inside Job: The Looting of America's Savings and Loans, which was nominated for a Pulitzer.

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So - are you sure it's Iran?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Feb 9, 2007 12:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who else might be moving weapons into Iraq to support insurgents? If the region is really on the verge of a massive Saudi-Iranian conflict, and if both sides believe the US will withdraw (as we must) what then? Would the Saudis supply arms to their friends? Are the Baathist or Shiite or other insurgents smuggling arms in through Syria? Is there any concrete evidence of Iranian-manufactured shoulder-launched missles being used by the insurgency, or is this just innuendo?

The only solution will be to to give up control of Iraqi oilfields, pull US troops out of the country, and use strong diplomatic negotiation to bring the Saudis and the Iranians to the same table (perhaps Syria and Jordan could help mediate this).

Unfortunately, there are apparently no professional diplomats or negotitors left in the US State Department, and then there's the issue of those massive military bases the US has already set up - but they'd be perfect for housing a temporary international peacekeeping force.

The following report on the US intelligence system's "National Intelligence Estimate" seems to refute the claim that Iran is playing a major role in supplying the insurgency with weapons: Now it's official: Iraq's a mess By Jim Lobe , Asia Times Online

The NIE, which has been six months in preparation and represents the consensus views of the vast US intelligence community, also stressed that the violence in Iraq is internally generated and sustained, refuting recent suggestions by senior Bush administration officials that Iran is playing a major role in support of Shi'ite militias.

"Iran's neighbors influence, and are influenced by, events within Iraq, but the involvement of these outside actors is not likely to be a major driver of violence or the prospects for stability because of the self-sustaining character of Iraq's internal sectarian dynamics," it said, adding that Iranian "lethal support" for some Shi'ite groups "clearly intensifies the conflict" and that Syria has taken "less than adequate measures to stop the flow of foreign jihadists into Iraq".


Point is, be careful who you blame for downed helicopters - you could start another war with false or misleading information, couldn't you?

We are going to leave the Middle East, and we won't control the oil, despite the most passionate fantasies of the PNAC boys and the Cheney Energy Task Force. The game is over - go home.

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» RE: So - are you sure it's Iran? Posted by: feduphoosier
» RE: So - are you sure it's Iran? Posted by: Feelin'Hopeless
Saigon 2007
Posted by: edith on Feb 9, 2007 2:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a symbol the helicopter's become. The desperate Vietnamese backers of the US clinging on to the stabilizers of the departing helicopters in 1975; Afghanistan, the Baghdad fiasco. How redundant history is.

The occupiers always want the "final" battle: suck the enemy into a valley or city and finish him off. As the French discovered, Dien Bien Phu is the ironic ending of how all modern colonial wars conclude. And the helicopters over the crowded streets of Saigon with the enemy right where we "wanted" him.

the Baghdad Surge. Another ironic name for another predictable defeat.

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» RE: Saigon 2007 Posted by: Temporary
This is something I've talked about for years now.
Posted by: WhatNow? on Feb 9, 2007 3:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'd tell my friends, "think how much support this war would get here in amerika if the Russians were supplying the Iraqis with shoulder fired missiles like we did the mujahadeen?"

It would be practically impossible for anything to fly except the fastest of fighter planes. If we were not executing a lightly armed "enemy" but had to fight a well armed foe, the resulting casualities would make some of the armchair warriors of amerika whince.

A good supply of antiaircraft missiles might be the only thing that will end our war crime that is Iraq. It's too bad and a terrible shame that the only way we may learn is from pain and loss.

It's alot easier to destroy somebody when they have little defense.

I've wondered how long it would take for Iraq to get some shoulder fired AA missiles.

BUT, is it really AA missiles that have downed these aircraft and is Iran really supplying this equipment? Could be the Russians? The Chinese? Pakistan? Maybe they're actually real Stingers given to Syria in return for torturing people for the bush buddies? I'm sure Bell and Sikorsky would gladly sell bush more.

I can't wait till this war is over. The cost of one fucking bomb would have provided me with the health care that I can not afford. Thanks alot george for fucking me over and millions of others too. You suck!

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Iraq situation is deteriorating
Posted by: robchapman on Feb 9, 2007 3:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THe Iraqis increasing ability to shoot down Coaliton helicopters is a disturbing and ominous development.

After nearly four years of war-like occupation, the insurgents' military capibilities are increasing.

This complicates US security planning. Last year, the insurgents did not have this capibility and were militarily weaker. The presence of Coalition forces and their inability to achieve a military check mate in Iraq is obvious.

The American public must educate itself, move away from our current obsession with binary thinking and demand that our leadership come up with a settlement that

1). establishes Iraqi sovereignty, ( the US written constitution and subsequent elections are a farce);

2). commences an international and effective campaign against Islamist terrorists, (the Iraqi invasion has hijacked efforts to combat terror), and

3). prevents a general war in the Persian Gulf as Coalition forces withdraw.

Robert Chapman
Lansing, NY

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U.S. killing children while media gush over Anna Nicole
Posted by: Moonray on Feb 9, 2007 4:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
U.S. forces killed dozens more civilians this week in Iraq, including several children, while U.S. media gushed over the death of poor Anna Nicole. To its credit MSNBC covered the story, but most others ignored it.

It's irresponsible and criminal for the U.S. or anyone to drop bombs in civilian neighborhoods. Congress needs to cut off funds for this war -- Now.

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Read My Lips
Posted by: R.I.P. on Feb 9, 2007 6:43 AM   
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I think George was trying to tell you folks that he dosen't give a damn who or how many people die as long as his wife and dog are a-ok...... hey, remember a-ok? We were hot stuff back in those days. Well, anyway, that is the one thing George told you that you can believe.

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Here comes the Oprey, the Latest DoD Fallacy
Posted by: NoPCZone on Feb 9, 2007 6:50 AM   
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Wait until scores of our troops get killed in the new wonder toy- due to hit Iraq shortly. The problems are immense, with Osprey development killing over 30 people and serious problems with visibility and operability in sandy and dusty environments. It's going to be ugly and expensive in lives and dollars.

Look at this quote from g2mil.com
"The US Army has lost 41 helicopters over Iraq and Afghanistan this past year, with another 24 so badly damaged they are likely to be scrapped. This is proof that employing ultra-expensive V-22s over combat zones is unwise, especially since they are larger than any helicopter in the US inventory. The V-22 weighs twice as much and costs four times more than helicopters with comparable abilities. For example, the Navy's FY2005 budget requests 15 MH-60S helicopters for $400.8 million; or a unit cost of $26.7 million each. This helo weighs one-third as much as the V-22, but can pick up nearly the same payload. It has room for 13 combat equipped Marines, compared to 18 for the V-22. If Congress canceled the V-22 and diverted its $1756.5 million FY2005 request to buy MH-60Ss, this could provide 67 modern helicopters for the Corps, which can also carry machine guns, rockets, and Hellfire missiles, unlike the V-22."

The US Army spend decades and billions trying to develop tilt-rotor aircraft and wisely gave up after seeing the immense problems and safety concerns about the design. The Osprey started as an Army program and was picked up by the Marine Corps when the Army dropped it.

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» Osprey = subsidies. Posted by: Melvin
It's not as if our government is unaware of the MANPAD threat
Posted by: sausage on Feb 9, 2007 6:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From the United States State Department's International Information Program web site, from 2005:Fact sheet on combatting threat to global aviation from MANPADS

The State Department has drawn attention to the danger posed to aviation around the world by man-portable air defense systems, also known as MANPADS, in a fact sheet issued September 20.
[snip]
Who Makes MANPADS?

Approximately 20 countries have produced or have licenses to produce MANPADS or their components. These include Bulgaria, China, Egypt, France, Germany, Greece, Iran, Japan, the Netherlands, North Korea, Pakistan, Poland, Romania, Russia, Serbia and Montenegro, Sweden, Turkey, the United States, and the United Kingdom.

It is estimated that over 1 million MANPADS missiles have been manufactured worldwide to date. The United States believes that most of these systems are in national inventories or that they have been destroyed, but in many cases, these systems have not been accounted for.


Not only Iran, but Iraqi "insurgents" can also be getting MANPADS from any number of sources. Pakistan? Egypt? Russia? Turkey?

Suffice it to say, the conflict will only escalate as our Congress plays charades with the White House for the sake of the MSM; fiddling with "nonbinding resolutions" while making sure our troops receive adaquate funds to get the "job" done; their "job" being to kill some people and oppress the rest.

This nation will not leave Iraq until one of two things happens: Either American troops are decisively defeated in combat, in detail, by a supposedly inferior foe, or US ground forces Iraq stage a general mutiny. And not just scattered units here and there but a solid majority of Army soldiers, Marines and National Guardsmen. Of the two scenarios the former seems more likely than the later.

However, should American forces be defeated decisively by Iraqi insurgents it does not necessarily follow that we, as a nation, a people and a government, will learn any lessons about involvement in risky foreign adventurism. After all, our history is replete with military defeats, The Alamo, Ft. Sumter, Pearl Harbor, Mogadishu, that have been transformed into rallying cries. So if our boys and girls in uniform are humiliated in a future "Battle of Baghdad," rest assured that our country's leaders will be spoiling to avenge a disgrace to our national manhood. Quickly.

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Thanks to the author!
Posted by: Conservasaurus on Feb 9, 2007 7:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First I want to thank the author for pointing out Iran's part in supplying Iraqi insurgents with weapons ..I just had a "discussion" in another topic on this point and of course EVERYONE suggested it as fantasy!

Second I feel too much is read in to the missiles effect... The Soviets would have pulled out of Afghanistan even without the stinger missile threat.

Many on here said we had already lost in Iraq BEFORE the choppers were lost. There is always a strategy to deal with a threat. I'd be surprised if these missiles were the deal breaker! - VERY surprised..

But the reason there are two carrier battle groups planned in or near the Gulf could be THIS case exactly... While they may not attack Iran.. and lets hope that it isnt even considered, they sure could add valuable resources to bomb sources of these supplies!

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» Don't be too sure Posted by: sausage
» RE: Don't be too sure Posted by: Conservasaurus
Russia is supplying Iran with weapons and so did Reagan
Posted by: edsmith on Feb 9, 2007 7:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't forget that Reagan, who lied to america when he said he's never negotiate with hostage takers in Iran, traded arms to Iran for the release of the hostages.

I'd be disappointed if Iran wasn't doing all that it can to make Iraq a bigger disaster for the Zionist Occupied Government we call the Bush Administration.

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Stephen Pizzo, don't blame Iran
Posted by: hennep on Feb 9, 2007 7:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What the author forgets is where the helicopters are downed and by who, the groups credited with responsibility seem to be Sunni groups, they also occured over thier stronghold areas as i understand. It is more reasonable to propose that these SAM's were (if they exist) provided by the traditional backers of the Sunni groups, pointing the finger to Pakistan supplying Chinese SAM's, as the author mentions and not by Iran.
However I can see the argument that it could be a series of field trials to gauge the effectiveness of the Iranian weapon system which they may soon have to deploy in defence of their nation and having the "other side in the civil war" do the testing, but that would be a masterful peice of statesmanship by the Iranians if true.

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Appreciate the focus on Congress...
Posted by: SteveB on Feb 9, 2007 8:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Congress is Bush's enabler, and we should hold them responsible if they continue to give him billions of dollars of our money.

One group that understands this is Voices for Creative Nonviolence which is organizing a sustained campaign of civil disobedience against Congressional representatives who won't commit to voting against Bush's request for another $100 billion for the war.

The campaign has included actions in more than 12 states, with arrests happening daily - the most recent in the St. Louis offices of Democratic Representative Russ Carnahan.

If you're serious about ending the war, get connected with VCNV and join a sit-in at your Representatives office!

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As A Heli Pilot . .
Posted by: JCR on Feb 9, 2007 9:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can tell you from experience that helis are actually pretty unsafe to begin with, and when you throw some surface to air missiles into the mix, you end up with a flying tin can cum bullseye. Us civilian flyboys are used to piloting choppers alone whereas military pilots fly tandom almost without exception. This is a safety precaution meant to keep the chopper aloft should one pilot be rendered unable to fly, but more often than not, it simply claims another life.

Piloting in the desert is hazardous what with all that sand and wind and that is to say nothing of small arms fire and missiles. The maintenance required to keep turbine helicopters functioning is astounding. I service my bird every week and I fly under optimal conditions. A helicopter is also much more difficult to pilot than a plane (which I also fly) as it requires CONSTANT attention. There is no auto-pilot for helis!

I have gone into auto-rotation one time in my life and it was without a doubt the most harrowing, no, terrifying moment of my life. I did go down for what is called a hard landing but managed to walk away. What these boys go through is unimaginable for most pilots let alone non-pilots. I salute my brother pilots and wish them a safe return and mourn the loss of those no longer with us.

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Just one more reason to leave
Posted by: CJC on Feb 9, 2007 9:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I too wonder if this rash of attacks on US helicopters doesn't presage vulnerability of our planes in and out of Iraq.
As for who might be supplying the weapons, it's not news that the world is awash in weaponry of every sort all to be had for a price. Parts for our fighter jets even make their way to Iran, and with the long long list of countries manufacturing these anti-aircraft weapons it can't be possible to trace their source. In any case, it seems unlikely to me that Iranian supplied arms of any sort are responsible for events west of Baghdad. Is stuff coming from Saudi Arabia? Very likely.
The US military adventure in Iraq is so messed up from start to present that the increasing loss of helicopters is just reason #2042, and counting, for us to withdraw. Will Congress do the right thing? Keep tuned!

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the pike
Posted by: jessicalh on Feb 9, 2007 10:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't recall the source and others would know this better, but there is a classic comparison between the pike as a weapon against calvary and the shoulder fired rocket against helicopters...in short, its one of those democratizing weapons that level required investment.

BTW "little brown hands" in the article was kinda creepy-slash-icky.

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Which is faster: the antiwar movement or a guided missile?
Posted by: SteveB on Feb 9, 2007 10:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For a while now, I've been feeling like we're in a race. Who can end the U.S. occupation of Iraq sooner: Americans, acting nonviolently, or Iraqis, acting violently?

Right now, my money is on the Iraqis.

And, if that's the case, what is the point of the antiwar movement? Is it to engineer a "graceful exit" for the U.S. in order to prevent a disastrous defeat? Which outcome (graceful exit or disastrous defeat) would be more likely to teach our ruling class not to do something like this again?

Maybe the best "antiwar" position is to just let the U.S. lose. We tried to warn our "leaders", but they wouldn't listen, and now thousands more people, and ultimately our country, have to pay the price for their pig-headedness.

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I asked Elton (R-CA) about this...
Posted by: DaBear on Feb 9, 2007 11:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....And he's convinced we're "winning in Iraq" and that "our helicopter personnel are the finest in the world." I asked Dianne and Barbara, my senators from CA) too and their responses, while considerably more in touch with reality, still boiled down to body-snatcher-esque, "we must support the troops" as reasons to keep signing checks so even more of our vulnerable gear and our missle-fodder kids can come crashing to the ground. Okay, so counting on congress is clearly out too. Now what?

Any kid who plays too much Halo can tell you how this "war" is gonna end, and they aren't hesitant to tell us grown-ups what fuckheads we are for thinking we can still win in such a stoopid situation. My teenaged nephew (who plays entirely too much Halo... hence he kicks my ass routinely on XBox Live) was asked to draw something for art class that reflects the current state of affairs in the world. He drew a boy dressed in rags surrounded by a shantytown slum, with a shoulder mounted missile launcher, bringing down a floating shining futuristic city. (He was suspended from school and my brother's taking them to court over it) That was two months ago, then I started hearing about the helos coming down and read this piece today... god dammit why can't the asshats in congress just listen to our own kids?! For fuck's sake...

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.
Posted by: ShoShenQ on Feb 9, 2007 12:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America needs to be defeated once more to stay quiet and peaceful for another 15-20 years, and right now is begging for another beating. This is the way it works.

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» RE: why ? Posted by: chrysalide17
this is just a provocation...
Posted by: chrysalide17 on Feb 9, 2007 1:46 PM   
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I just read an article from the Financial time concerning an interview of Brzezinsky on February 1, 2007 "Four steps towards calming the chaos in Iraq" in which he describes " a plausible scenario for a military collision with Iran involves Iraqi failure to meet US benchmarks; followed by US accusations of Iranian responsibility for the failure;then by some provocationin Iraq OR A TERRORIST ACT IN THE US blamed on Iran. This could culminate in "defensive" US military action against Iran that plunges a lonely America into deepening quagmire eventually encompassing Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan."
For 9/11 provocation go to: www.voltairenet.org for the French speaking.

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The View From Tehran
Posted by: sofla100 on Feb 9, 2007 2:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You have to consider the significant factor that the Bush regime will not talk or negotiate with Iran and they have virtually declared war on her. Iran recently tried to enter into talks with Israel, and at the behest of the Bush administration, Israel refused any talks. Meanwhile, US bases continue to spring up in Iraq and Bush constantly engages in provocative comments about Iran. Therefore, here are the logical lessons for Iran:

1. Develop nukes as quickly as possible like everyone else. Israel, Turkey, N Korea all have them. The lesson of N Korea is that you won't get invaded if you have them and the lesson of Iraq is you do get invaded if you do not have them.

2. Iraq as a country is a "make believe fiction" that only American policiticans believe in. Nobody in Iraq really wants it. Religious groups, Shia and Sunni, both want "Iraq" to go away, and want inclusion into existing countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia and the Kurds want an independent state. Iran, meanwhile, must "position itself," for this likely eventuality.

3. The USA-Israel power block in the region is likely to continue with "lapdog" Arab states (ie, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia) all expected to do the heavy lifting. But, all of Bushes horses will never put Iraq back together again. Iran, not a US puppet state or an Israeli "lapdog" must position itself for when the populations of these same puppet/lapdog countries become dissatisfed with their leaders shennanigans and the goals of US hegemony in the region.

4. America continues to refuse to even talk with Iran or Syria. No doubt, talks would quickly lead to a peace accord and the end of US hositilities, however, USA has not signaled its desire to go in this direction. The goals of "power projection" and USA/Israel hegemony in the region continue to be pursued.

And, that my friends, is the likely view from Iran. So, why is anybody surprised if they are not "very friendly." Would you be friendly if people wanted to kill you and invade your country?

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withdraw
Posted by: gellero on Feb 9, 2007 4:33 PM   
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We should withdraw so the Iraqis can have a bloodbath of millions like in Cambodia and Rawanda. Why should we care about that. Let history take its course.

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Two Wrongs - Two Generations - Same Result
Posted by: Redoubt on Feb 9, 2007 6:45 PM   
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No, two wrongs do not make a right. The axiom is both time worn but… still quite honest.

The trend is to dwell upon ‘why’ we are in Iraq as opposed to ‘what’ we should do now that we rae a fact of life to millions of Iraqis. If one removes the political equation, the remaining elements don’t have the division factors that seem to be so happily a part of every discussion.

Root: Another Vietnam? Color me a part of that time and the general uprising that conveniently ignored every aspect except the political. We left the Nam and came home, covering our eyes and ears for 30 years before we could again look at it. And when we did, we couldn’t do it without again adding the politics.

Truth: No, we should have never become as deeply involved in the Nam as we did but once there, we compounded the mistake by hightailing it out before fixing what we had ourselves broken. The result? A communist invasion and totalitarian regime that reigns to this day.

So for a moment, put your pointy, kool-aide colored hats down. Let’s look at Iraq.

Root: No, we had no genuine cause to invade this foreign nation but… we are there now and the damage is our responsibility. The world looks on as we have arguably… very convincingly done as much harm as Saddam Hussein. What do we do now? We are bleeding Americans everyday. Something has to be decided. Well, we can blame Bush… who probably deserves that blame but it won’t solve a damn thing for Iraq the nation or Iraq the people.

Truth: We need to clean our Iraqi house of the blood sucking corporations that are using this war and occupation as a means of income. Then we need to make a public statement that says, unequivocally, that we will NOT tolerate Iranian interference. To that end, we create a long-term but size-limited presence in Iraq, devoted to nothing more than protecting this nation from outside usurpers. We have to make it clear that we WILL go to war with Iran to protect Iraq, no matter the cost. If Iran understands the undeniable consequences of misbehavior, they may well think twice and if they don't? We are no worse off than we are now.

Future: A north to south military sweep, involving both US and Iraqi forces to stampede and then corral insurgent forces. Those who flee to Iran will be gone. Those who don’t will be annihilated.

Alternative: Just tuck tail and leave. This will offer America another good lesson that like the Nam, will be happily forgotten in 20 or 30 years because we never finished the job or paid the price of foolishly following a fool into a war.

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"Democracy out of the Barrel of a Gun" Will Never Work
Posted by: sofla100 on Feb 9, 2007 7:40 PM   
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You have to respect what the people of Iraq want. If they do not want to be a country anymore or if they want to merge into Saudi Arabia, Iran, or create a Kurdistan, so what? Why the big need by America to "control" things towards a so-called desirable outcome? This "democracy out of the barrel of a gun" stuff is what was tried in Vietnam. It didn't work there and it's not going to work now. Besides, what gives America the right to talk, especially when it's example has been so poor? The idea that Americans have of being "white knights" to supposedly restore freedom and rights is already proven nonsense. All America is seen as doing in Iraq is trying to pave the way for oil companies to move in or as a stepping stone to bother other Arab countries like Iran.

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The fight just started.
Posted by: Melvin on Feb 9, 2007 7:46 PM   
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IF the Iraqis were using guided, Iranian, missiles then I am sure that the airport near Baghdad would be under constant fire. A usual the press exaggerates or "suggests' that Iranian made missiles are in use. This is the same press that suggests that the IED's are being built with Iranian parts!
WTF Iranian parts in a IED are beats me; a cell phone perhaps? Even the White house admits that the Iranian parts are few in number.
The idiots have to sell air time or newspapers so innuendo is the next best thing to real news!
The problem is that the public believe these unsubstantiated sound bites & the Politicians decide policy on them!
If I am wrong & the Iraqi s do have guided missiles then watch out the fight has just started!!

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Another downed Helicopter, another 12 million for War profiteers
Posted by: JoeCraine on Feb 10, 2007 5:06 AM   
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You can't make money in a war if the stuff actual lasts or is reusable or, heaven forbid, you win or lose the war.

GHWB just isn't rich enough and he is not emperor yet, so, we are just going to have to put up with it.

Please tell me where I can find a forum to indict and convict these criminals?

Joe Craine

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» War Crimes Tribunal Posted by: rwa
Evening things up
Posted by: phindrup on Feb 10, 2007 5:48 AM   
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I have been puzzled as to why the resistance has not been doing better.
If the information I'm getting from some of my ex military friends is correct then some of the US/coalition tactics are very predictable.
In any sort of scrap knowing where your opposition is going to be, and what they are going to do, is as much of an edge as you are ever likely to get, yet it seems to me that the resistance is not using it to their advantage.
I have also been puzzled by the lack of small effective weapons and the lack of cheap, high tech solutions to confronting heavy, expensive war machines.
I am delighted that the resistance appears to have obtained some effective anti aircraft weapons.

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Conservasaurus is RIGHT to Thank Pisso for War Mongering
Posted by: rwa on Feb 10, 2007 7:49 AM   
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The truth is in the last few weeks there has been a massive upswing in US attacks against the Iraqi people in a last ditch attempt to make a win look real.

Over all chopper fly hours have probably gone up by 50 X the hours because the US main attack and support bird in the chopper.

That means that "Chopper Targets" have increased making it for example 50 X more likely to get shot down.

This is the same government lie that says "most drivers have accidents within 5 miles of home" allegedly because they are more at ease closer to home and make mistakes, but this is a lie, because in fact 99% of a drivers travel is within 5 miles of home so the chances of having an 'accident' are far greater.

So put the chopper fly hours up and you have a greater chance of getting shot down ... SIMPLE ... and very well known and very expected by the US war machine ..

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